Mind Your Surroundings: Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow and Other Superhero Universes

[BkWurm1]

3 hours ago, apinknightmare said:

So, does Team Flash not realize that Laurel is dead? They'd have to, right? Because of Barry? Just trying to figure out why Cisco's having difficulty figuring out what the dead birds are about.

I knew the birds weren't canaries and yet I too thought it was about Laurel. It's kind of hilarious that intended or not that the show featured that imagery so strongly. 

3 hours ago, apinknightmare said:

OMG @ Wally pulling a Felicity. I cannot stop laughing. I figured he would since they were standing in the street, but...LOL.

So funny and yeah, I know I saw it as a shout out to Felicity and her van, lol. 

2 hours ago, Angel12d said:

I have to ask a serious question here. Why do people think that E2 Laurel has finally been done right/treated properly on The Flash? Because all I got from that was a lot of shade, getting hit with a van and then captured. How is that good? Honest question because I don't get it. I mean, she's evil and she's not BC so...huh? 

If I was a fan, I'd be scratching my head right now. 

No kidding.  I thought they were mocking her most of the time and to end with Cisco actually mocking her and then a dismissal like they are never going to think about her again really surprised me.  Maybe it was just me but the "pale imitation" comment might have been said about the BS but I know I've said it about Arrow's BC for a long time as well. 

 

1 hour ago, Primal Slayer said:

I'm glad that the psychics were wrong about Black Sirens death this episode. Overall I enjoyed her, would be nice to see her properly developed but who knows on that one. 

I really wish they would start building up to a big COIE, now that would be a ballsy move on everyones parts. 

But wow did they really mess up the "crossover" between Flash/Arrow when it comes to Laurels death, that was just bad at how they incorporated it and had the characters react to see her double. It had absolutely no impact on this show like they wanted us to believe it would.

I'm glad she didn't turn good.  Thought they were actually going to go there when we had Fake Killer Frost and reverb come for a chat.  Would have preferred that she didn't stay on E1 at all (that just gives people ideas) but without the redemption tour, it doesn't really matter. 

Given how Flash seems to be paralleling Arrow this year, I wonder if the person to take Zoom down will at least initially not be Barry.

I laughed how quickly Catlin went from "I will NEVER recover!" to "sure, I'm totes fine dressing up as Killer Frost and risking my life".  Oh well, at least she got a bit of emotional growth.

Poor Barry's first dad.  Knew his time was really limited when they made sure to slip in that reunion between the two original TV Flash actors, lol.  Still puzzled to find there was nothing more to his dad leaving than just wanting to leave.  And if he'd stayed away, he's still be alive.  Poor man.  Least he didn't die by ice cream cone. 

[looptab]

22 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

a big COIE,

COIE?

[apinknightmare]

35 minutes ago, looptab said:

COIE?

Crisis on infinite earths

[looptab]

1 minute ago, apinknightmare said:

Crisis on infinite earths

Thanks :) 

[bijoux]

I only just saw that preview clip with CL. That's really good.

You know, that could actually be a good time for a scene with Ray. From what I can tell, he didn't try to go save Anna. He could offer some insight and comfort.

[Slj]

Hitting someone with a car is an age old device used on many TV shows, Buffy, NCIS and CSI spring to mind without checking. 

Are the parallels designed to show WestAllen won't happen? Because I doubt that very much. It's now officially canon. 

Flash used to have Arrow's problem of being unable to write women but they've really upped their game the last few episodes. Not just with Iris, but Jesse too. And if anything they're making The Flash lighter not darker, I mean they've seen Arrows ratings. And they've brought the writer who did The Runaway Dinosaur on to the show for season 3. 

7 hours ago, wonderwall said:

Someone mentioned this on twitter but there are a lot of parallels between Flash/Arrow and their major plot points:

S1 Arrow - 1/3 of the love triangle dies. 
S1 Flash - 1/3 of the love triangle dies.

S2 Arrow - A biological parent dies
S2 Flash - Biological parent dies

S2 Arrow - Army of mirakuru Soldiers
S2 Flash - Army of metas

2x22 Arrow - Felicity hits Isabel with Van
2x22 Flash - Wally hits Black Siren with Car (thanks @ComicFan777)

1. Eddie killed himself, Tommy was killed by his own father.

2. Arrow used it as another excuse to fridge a woman, The Flash didn't. 

3. An army of vampire was used on Buffy, it's a commonly used device.

4. See 3. 

[BkWurm1]

Quote

Hitting someone with a car is an age old device used on many TV shows, Buffy, NCIS and CSI spring to mind without checking.

Sure and they did it in the opener of LoT as well but right now in the Flarrowverse, it's more an Arrow running gag that also happened to happen in the same episode as tonight's Flash. And both hit powered women.  That just got back up.  It's an interesting parallel.  The odds seem against so much serendipity. 

 

Quote

Are the parallels designed to show WestAllen won't happen? Because I doubt that very much. It's now officially canon. 

I don't think anyone is implying that at all.   

Quote

Flash used to have Arrow's problem of being unable to write women but they've really upped their game the last few episodes. Not just with Iris, but Jesse too. And if anything they're making The Flash lighter not darker, I mean they've seen Arrows ratings. And they've brought the writer who did The Runaway Dinosaur on to the show for season 3. 

Going to disagree about Flash being so much better lately in it's writing of women.  It's JUST barely getting better but this episode of Caitlin going from emotionally messed up to super fine was absurdly written.  Apparently feelings that are complex and painful are too girly to explore?  (So is grieving unless your name is Barry Allen)  And maybe some day they will start writing for Jesse but still waiting and once again Iris got mostly ignored before getting a real half hearted invite to start dating.  I WANT to ship them but the show is not putting in much effort or excitement. 

The Flash just killed Barry's spare dad.  In front of him.  To mess with his head.  And Cisco saw the end of a world.  Still pretty dark, lol.

Arrow's ratings are very stable.  They are pretty much in line with this time of the year during season two.  SA just called them "supernaturally stable"

 

Quote

1. Eddie killed himself, Tommy was killed by his own father.

Eddie killed himself to save his friends and the woman he loved.  Tommy died saving the woman he loved.

Quote

2. Arrow used it as another excuse to fridge a woman, The Flash didn't. 

Flash is in season two, not season four (so give them time) and it just fridged Barry's dad (probably because he's lousy with them) Not to mention Killer Frost didn't fair so well right around the time Laurel was killed. 

Quote

3. An army of vampire was used on Buffy, it's a commonly used device.

An army of bad guys that are super powered and brought in by the lead character's nemesis at the end of the second season.  It's a lot to do with the timing.

Edited May 18, 2016 by BkWurm1

[apinknightmare]

18 minutes ago, Slj said:

Are the parallels designed to show WestAllen won't happen? Because I doubt that very much. It's now officially canon. 

And what a meh canon it is. It's been a while since I've seen a couple this unenthusiastic at the prospect of being together.

[Password]

It's  funny.  In the first half of season 2 I complained that they forgot about Barry and Iris' friendship.  Now I complain about how they got them together. I probably just really don't care enough. 

[apinknightmare]

1 minute ago, Password said:

It's  funny.  In the first half of season 2 I complained that they forgot about Barry and Iris' friendship.  Now I complain about how they got them together. I probably just really don't care enough. 

They don't even seem to care that much.

[Ceylon5]

21 minutes ago, Slj said:

Hitting someone with a car is an age old device used on many TV shows, Buffy, NCIS and CSI spring to mind without checking. 

Are the parallels designed to show WestAllen won't happen? Because I doubt that very much. It's now officially canon. 

Flash used to have Arrow's problem of being unable to write women but they've really upped their game the last few episodes. Not just with Iris, but Jesse too. And if anything they're making The Flash lighter not darker, I mean they've seen Arrows ratings. And they've brought the writer who did The Runaway Dinosaur on to the show for season 3. 

1. Eddie killed himself, Tommy was killed by his own father.

2. Arrow used it as another excuse to fridge a woman, The Flash didn't. 

3. An army of vampire was used on Buffy, it's a commonly used device.

4. See 3. 

Everything on every TV show has been done a bazillion times before.  Nobody's saying that Arrow was the first and only show to do any of these things or that the similarities between The Flash and Arrow are Absolutely Identical In Every Respect.  They're just pointing out that the two shows are following several very similar story beats at similar stages in both shows.  There is no agenda, it's just an observation.

[doesntworkonwood]

30 minutes ago, Ceylon5 said:

Everything on every TV show has been done a bazillion times before.  Nobody's saying that Arrow was the first and only show to do any of these things or that the similarities between The Flash and Arrow are Absolutely Identical In Every Respect.  They're just pointing out that the two shows are following several very similar story beats at similar stages in both shows.  There is no agenda, it's just an observation.

Yeah. It makes a lot of sense to compare The Flash and Arrow (as well as LOT) because same universe, same producers, same writers. It's pretty evident that the writers of each show do have to attempt to make some effort in being aware of what happens on each show. If that wasn't the case, this episode wouldn't have happened, and neither would the next episode of LOT. There are tropes written by loads of people in loads of different shows since TV began, and then there are tropes written by a similar group of writers, on shows produced by the same person, on the same network, and airing at the same time, that are all set in the same world.

We can say 'Buffy did this ages ago', but it's more relevant to say 'Arrow, the show that helped to launch The Flash and has the same producers, did this two years ago', because we can draw a direct line from one to the other.

[BkWurm1]

We regularly look for parallel storytelling beats within Arrow even year to year.  The death episodes, the break up episodes, the just kill me now late midseason stretch of suck.  There seems to be clear timelines for Arrow and it's interesting to see some of the same stuff also happening on The Flash. 

[Chaser]

The part where she gets hit by the car and she rolls on the ground, is it the lighting or is the stunt doubles hair blonde?

I watched the gif and her hair looks like it changed color.

[nksarmi]

Well at least the last episode of Arrow season two did not involve some sort of silly ass race like the previews show for Flash.

But anyway, if the parallels continue (and I so hope they don't) then something will happen to put the breaks on Barry and Iris in season three (I'm still wondering if the man in the iron mask is Eddie), Barry will "die" mid-way through the season when Wally and/or Jesse get their powers and stand in for him. And then some ridiculous villain will kidnap/threaten Iris so he has to do anything to save her. He will make some kind of deal that involves him leaving the team and them thinking he's gone over to the dark side. And then he will return at the last minute to save the city from a biological weapon.

It could happen.

[AyChihuahua]

I find it highly entertaining, aka unbelievably stupid, that the big season finale climax is...

a footrace. I mean REALLY?

[Chaser]

4 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

I find it highly entertaining, aka unbelievably stupid, that the big season finale climax is...

a footrace. I mean REALLY?

They may as well just whip them out and grab a ruler. 

[dtissagirl]

I don't even know what you guys are complaining about. All I ever wanted was for Flash to actively use a Wile E. Coyote vs. Roadrunner story beat and it's finally happening.



Beep beep.

[AyChihuahua]

26 minutes ago, Chaser said:

They may as well just whip them out and grab a ruler. 

Barry's smooth like a Ken doll, remember.

Although I think that would be more entertaining than watching a footrace. The villain's whole motivation is just, let's see who is faster? I don't get that as the main villain's sole motivation, AT ALL.

[apinknightmare]

2 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

Barry's smooth like a Ken doll, remember.

Although I think that would be more entertaining than watching a footrace. The villain's whole motivation is just, let's see who is faster? I don't get that as the main villain's sole motivation, AT ALL.

Perhaps I'm giving the show too much credit, but maybe Zoom goads Barry into the race to reach a specific end? LIke their combined speed racing through time is enough to destroy E2? Barry is stupid like that. 

[AyChihuahua]

3 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

Perhaps I'm giving the show too much credit, but maybe Zoom goads Barry into the race to reach a specific end? LIke their combined speed racing through time is enough to destroy E2? Barry is stupid like that. 

I'm sure there will end up being SOMETHING more to it, considering Cisco's visions. I hope it's more like a threat...race me or I'll destroy E2 (tho, why E2 and not E1 if it's a threat?). But the previews certainly made it seem like a dick-measuring thing, which just seems silly as hell to me.

Full disclosure: I am not a sportsball person, and I would rather cut off my pinkie toe than watch a race of any kind. Maybe sports bros get this as the primary/sole motivation? I mean, I get that he's evil, but I feel like evil is not a goal. Evil and want revenge, okay. Evil and want to rule the world, okay. For me evil more explains the route to the goal, but shouldn't be the goal. So Zoom is evil and wants bragging rights? I just can't with that.

[Slj]

3 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

 

Flash is in season two, not season four (so give them time) and it just fridged Barry's dad (probably because he's lousy with them) Not to mention Killer Frost didn't fair so well right around the time Laurel was killed. 

You can't fridge men. Fridging is specifically about killing women. 

Killer Frost wasn't killed to increase Barry's pain. Fridging is specifically about killing a women to increase the pain felt by a man. Like killing Shado, Moira, Sara, Thea and Laurel on Arrow (I'm sure I've missed someone). Those deaths were all about Oliver. 

When are Barry and Iris unenthusiastic? Because there's not huge angst? It's a slow build. I don't want them mentally torturing each other like I hear Olicity do. I mean I've seen both Oliver and Felicity compared to abusers. I'd rather have Barry and Iris' mutual respect, slow burn friendship and realisation. Would people rather Barry and Iris ripped each other apart? Would they rather he end up with Caitlin? And Iris with her boss? They screwed up in 2a but apart from that I wouldn't change much. I don't want them to be a toxic relationship, it's a real Hallmark of CW shows that The Flash has avoided. 

[lemotomato]

26 minutes ago, Slj said:

You can't fridge men. Fridging is specifically about killing women. 

Killer Frost wasn't killed to increase Barry's pain. Fridging is specifically about killing a women to increase the pain felt by a man. Like killing Shado, Moira, Sara, Thea and Laurel on Arrow (I'm sure I've missed someone). Those deaths were all about Oliver. 

When are Barry and Iris unenthusiastic? Because there's not huge angst? It's a slow build. I don't want them mentally torturing each other like I hear Olicity do. I mean I've seen both Oliver and Felicity compared to abusers. I'd rather have Barry and Iris' mutual respect, slow burn friendship and realisation. Would people rather Barry and Iris ripped each other apart? Would they rather he end up with Caitlin? And Iris with her boss? They screwed up in 2a but apart from that I wouldn't change much. I don't want them to be a toxic relationship, it's a real Hallmark of CW shows that The Flash has avoided. 

"Women in refrigerators" was popularized by Gail SImone, but according to TV Tropes, the term has evolved to include "A character is killed off in a particularly gruesome manner and left to be found just to offend or insult someone, or to cause someone serious anguish" which could be any gender. And you're wrong about all the women on your list dying for Oliver. Moira offered to die to save her children, Sara died to build Laurel's BC arc.Laurel died in the field and story-wise, DD killed her to cause Lance pain. Thea didn't die, and what she went through in season 3 was developed into a storyline for her in season 4. 

I don't see the point about talking about Barry and Iris's romantic relationship because what romantic relationship? They haven't even starting dating. Or flirting. Or anything. What's there to even compare to Olicity and other "CW shows"? And I don't see anyone here arguing that Barry and Iris should be dating other people.

Edited May 18, 2016 by lemotomato

[Delphi]

Well,  that's not entirely fair.   We did a whole lot of talking about olicity before they were in a romantic relationship. 

[Guest]

I find it very strange that there's this constant comparing of Flash and Arrow like somehow one has to be better than the other? It's interesting to draw parallels in the story and plotting but it's not a competition. 

Aside from that, comparing Olicity to abusers is LOL worthy. I hope these people never find out what real abuse is like. Just wow.

Edited May 18, 2016 by Guest

[hogwash]

Eh, I don't think Flash is doing romantic relationships so much better than other Flarrowverse shows. I honestly think Sara/Len and Oliver/Felicity were better friends/partners than Barry/Iris were before they got romantic. Both were awol during each other's huge life-altering storylines (dead mom showing up and butt kicking by Zoom) in the first half. But I do like that they toned down Barry's obsessive crush from S01 but another big issue I had was Iris barely seemed interested in pursuing the relationship. I dont think they ever fixed that.

[bethy]

2 minutes ago, hogwash said:

But I do like that they toned down Barry's obsessive crush from S01 but another big issue I had was Iris barely seemed interested in pursuing the relationship. I dont think they ever fixed that.

Agreed. I was disappointed that when Iris was talking to ... someone, I can't remember... about Barry, she said something like, "Well, it looks like we're fated to be together so I guess we should try it." Such a tepid reason to date someone. Why not have her say, "Well, it looks like we're fated to be together and that's made me look at Barry in a different light"? Then at least it seems like she wants to try dating because of him rather than *shrug* I guess it's inevitable, or whatever. 

[Sakura12]

Barry and Iris seem like they are going "the comics say we are together, so we should be together". Iris didn't see Barry as anything other than a friend/brother and Barry barely remembered Iris this season. Then all of sudden they want each other. 

If people just want "because comics" then I guess this is good news for them. For those of us that need to see a relationship develop with actual screentime shared it feels like it's coming out of nowhere. 

[lemotomato]

14 minutes ago, Delphi said:

Well,  that's not entirely fair.   We did a whole lot of talking about olicity before they were in a romantic relationship. 

Oliver and Felicity were flirting/sharing deep longing looks before they were dating. We talked about them romantically because they were given a lot of romantic beats. And the OP was comparing what Barry/Iris are in seasons 1/2 to where Oliver/Felicity have gone through in 4 seasons, 2 of them as an established on-screen couple, which isn't totally fair either.

Edited May 18, 2016 by lemotomato

[bethy]

But Because Comics has worked so well elsewhere in this universe.... oh, wait. 

[lemotomato]

At least Barry/Iris doesn't have the bear the burden of cheating and sister-swapping, and anti-chemistry between the actors, I guess? I actually think they'll be fine-- I certainly can't picture Barry with anyone else-- if they were just given more time to show their romantic feelings onscreen instead of jumping in with "Oh well, the future says we should be together, so, yeah."

[apinknightmare]

47 minutes ago, Slj said:

When are Barry and Iris unenthusiastic? Because there's not huge angst?

No, because Iris's main motivation - per her words - seems to be that since E2 Iris and Barry are together, and the future paper indicated that she and Barry are married, that it's fate, so they might as well. When she presented that to Barry, he didn't respond to her, then he got sucked into the Speed Force. When he came out last week, he told her he wasn't sure what was between them, but then last night he told her the might as well "give this a shot." 

Regardless of what feelings were presented last season, there doesn't seem to be any feelings-based motivation for them to be together now. I don't need drama. I don't need angst. But I do need to get the sense that whatever two people I'm watching are getting together because they want to, and not because of fate or whatever. Iris and Barry's whole romantic arc the past season has culminated in the equivalent of a shrug. 

Edited May 18, 2016 by apinknightmare

[dtissagirl]

It's like I'm watching two six years old deciding they're going steady, which I guess is better than when it felt like they were portrayed as siblings and it was disturbing?

Edited May 18, 2016 by dtissagirl

[hogwash]

I'm glad that Barry isn't OTT "Why can't you seeeeee, you belong with meeee" anymore but to have both of them basically go "OK...I guess" is dumb. So much meh.

[Midnight Lullaby]

I liked Barry/Iris during season 1 because I like when two people are friends first, build a connection then fall in love and that is what happened with Oliver and Felicity too by the way. I could never imagine Barry with anyone else, then they had their first kiss while Iris was still with Eddie and I didn't like that at all. The first kiss between a couple is important IMO and the circumstances ruined it for me. Then I started losing interest in the show so right now I still can't see any other option for Barry than Iris but I also don't really care anymore. I don't know what's about this show that makes me not mind any of the characters but also don't really care about any of them. I find the reasoning "we should be together because it seems to be destiny" off putting too.

[dtissagirl]

I don't really care either, I don't 'ship anyone on Flash, nor I spend too much time thinking about the show other than when I'm reading this thread. But the sad part is I thought once they made Iris a part of BARRY's story finally, by writing them into an active romantic narrative, they were gonna spend real screen time in it, especially from Iris' POV.  I mean, they did it with Patty. But trolololol, the joke's on me.

[arjumand]

1 hour ago, AyChihuahua said:

I'm sure there will end up being SOMETHING more to it, considering Cisco's visions. I hope it's more like a threat...race me or I'll destroy E2 (tho, why E2 and not E1 if it's a threat?). But the previews certainly made it seem like a dick-measuring thing, which just seems silly as hell to me.

Full disclosure: I am not a sportsball person, and I would rather cut off my pinkie toe than watch a race of any kind. Maybe sports bros get this as the primary/sole motivation? I mean, I get that he's evil, but I feel like evil is not a goal. Evil and want revenge, okay. Evil and want to rule the world, okay. For me evil more explains the route to the goal, but shouldn't be the goal. So Zoom is evil and wants bragging rights? I just can't with that.

I agree. For once it was a good episode, that didn't hinge on "See Barry Run. Run, Barry!" I like the way that Cisco's vision seemed to about Laurel Bot 3.0 (now with Black Lipstick!), but that the birds were just misdirection.

Everything worked, including Barry's over-confidence etc, and then Zoom just, well, zooms in and takes his dad. Just like that. Wow, I thought. Now that's an episode!

Let's see what's in the promo . . . and it's Barry and Zoom running a race. Oh, come the fuck on right now. For real? Ugh.

[quarks]

1. As others noted, Thea's not dead. She was only mostly dead. And that mostly dead bit was the start of a bloodlust storyline for her that's going to be the focus of tonight's episode - in other words, a plot for her that's lasted more than a season, which in Arrow's "We've yet to meet a plot we won't rush!" terms is pretty astonishing.

2. Shado and Sara were fridged - Sara was even put in a freezer, to drive the point home. However, and this is pretty key, their deaths weren't all about Oliver. Shado's death was the main motivation for Slade; Sara's death was a major motivation for Laurel and the trigger for Laurel/Quentin conflict. 

3. I don't think I'd say that Oliver and Felicity mentally torture each other.

4. As someone who's seen both shows, I'd definitely argue that Flash is more misogynistic and far worse than Arrow with women - indeed, Flash is probably the most misogynistic of any of the current superhero shows. Arrow, Legends of Tomorrow, Supergirl, Gotham, and Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. all have their faults - and many of them - but they all feature women characters who have their own storylines and are more than just love interests. Flash, with the exceptions of Tina McGee, Thea (in a one episode appearance), Felicity and last night's Black Siren, generally does not. 

Two of those women are from Arrow. 

Tina McGee was just turned into a semi-love interest last night, though, granted, that was mostly fanservice for fans of the 1990s Flash show.

Flash also features a number of toxic relationships, both romantic and otherwise, between men and women. This includes the controlling, paternalistic relationships of Joe/Iris and Harry/Jesse, the outright physically abusive relationship between Golden Glider and her father, and at least one romantic relationship far worse than any of the romantic relationships on the supposedly darker show, Arrow.  That relationship - Caitlin and Jay - turned so toxic that Caitlin got temporary PTSD from it.  Even the less obviously toxic relationships feature lies, when not outright based on them. 

Making this worse: Flash often presents these relationships in a positive light and expects viewers to cheer for them. Joe is presented as a good guy. Harry is more mixed, but oooh, look, Harry loves his daughter so much he'll risk becoming unconscious and brain dead for her! Barry loves Iris!

Arrow, Gotham and Agents of SHIELD at least acknowledge, in script, the toxicity of their relationships and very real harm these toxic relationships can cause. They recognize that healing can take time - this was even a plot point in last night's Agents of SHIELD. They show the consequences. And these shows argue that the victims - women and men - have a right to anger and to express it, and the right to try to heal, even while also acknowledging that some things either don't heal easily or can't heal at all. Flash, not so much - even when it recognizes that a toxic relationship is even toxic.

And this is before we get into the issues that most of the Flash regulars are men; that Flash usually treats Barry's relationships with his various father figures as more important as his relationships with women, with the very arguable exception of his dead mother, both in screentime and in emotional effect; that although Flash has told us in script that Iris is Barry's best friend, Flash shows us on screen Barry hanging out far more with Cisco; and the way both Iris and Caitlin were largely marginalized this season, with Iris barely involved in any of the main plot until the SpeedForce episode - after which, she was immediately marginalized again. Or the way Patty managed to get kidnapped THREE TIMES in ten episodes.

5. I'll admit, I'm kinda cheering for Barry to end up with either Kara (cause they were adorable) or Linda (cause they were kinda adorable). With that bias clearly stated, though, I'm not against WestAllen - and I definitely don't want Iris with her mildly obnoxious "what, me respect boundaries" boss. I could easily get on the WestAllen train.

But Flash really hasn't given me that train. And it's not because it's a slow burn relationship between two characters who have known each other for years, either - Agents of SHIELD has a similar sort of thing going on with Fitzsimmons, which is working for me. The difference for me, at least, is that I know why Fitz and Simmons are interested in each other. I'm less certain about Barry and Iris, apart from the well, we're together in other futures/universes.

[Slj]

2 hours ago, dtissagirl said:

It's like I'm watching two six years old deciding they're going steady, which I guess is better than when it felt like they were portrayed as siblings and it was disturbing?

Barry and Iris were never portrayed as siblings, best friends, yes, siblings, no. 

[SonofaBiscuit]

Hmm.  Do most people who post in this shared universe thread have strong opinions about the Barry/Iris relationship?  I've always had the impression that many of us are like ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.  I know that I've repeatedly stated that I ship Barry with nobody because I have zero desire to watch him in a sexual relationship with anyone.  GG is adorable, but I've never found him to have sizzling chemistry with anyone.  Basically, I just don't care about Barry's love life.  At all.  

Also, I don't believe that The Flash is going to focus as much on the Iris/Barry relationship as some are hoping because as somebody mentioned earlier in this thread, the show seems to give screentime priority to the interactions between Barry and his many father figures.  IF Barry and Iris are "giving it a go" for realz now, the show has just robbed shippers of watching the early stages of their dating life, because all of that's going to happen over the hiatus.  Although, after the tragic events of last night's episode, maybe the showrunners are going to go the ship-stall route for another season instead?  I don't know.    

Edited May 18, 2016 by SonofaBiscuit

[NumberCruncher]

Re: the whole notion of abusive relationships, I also think it's a bit stupid to compare Barry/Iris to Oliver/Felicity since Barry and Iris have yet to actually have a romantic relationship.  And no, Olicity isn't the least bit abusive.  It certainly has serious trust issues regarding Oliver's lying and Felicity standing up for herself but neither have even remotely come close to abusing each other.  If their relationship is somehow "toxic" then I certainly don't even know what to say about Oliver/Laurel where he was boinking both sisters at the same time and was responsible for "killing" Sara on his dad's boat.  That doesn't even count the 2+ seasons they spent literally screaming at each other in scenes.

That's not to say that Barry and Iris won't have their drama/issues because they will in time--especially with these showrunners.  There's just no point in trying to compare the two shows in this regard because they're in two entirely different places at the moment (S2 v. S4).

Edited May 18, 2016 by NumberCruncher

[AyChihuahua]

14 minutes ago, Slj said:

Barry and Iris were never portrayed as siblings, best friends, yes, siblings, no. 

She called him her brother, and called Joe their, not just her, but THEIR, dad.

[dtissagirl]

14 minutes ago, Slj said:

Barry and Iris were never portrayed as siblings, best friends, yes, siblings, no. 

Direct über creepy Iris quote from the pilot episode:

Even though we pretty much grew up in the same house together, and we're kinda like brother and sister, because we're not brother and sister, it can get really weird and awkward to talk to me about girls, but I just want you to know, that it shouldn't be awkward.

13 minutes ago, SonofaBiscuit said:

Hmm.  Do most people who post in this shared universe thread have strong opinions about the Barry/Iris relationship?  I've always had the impression that many of us are like ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. 

[apinknightmare]

1 minute ago, dtissagirl said:

Direct über creepy Iris quote from the pilot episode:

Even though we pretty much grew up in the same house together, and we're kinda like brother and sister, because we're not brother and sister, it can get really weird and awkward to talk to me about girls, but I just want you to know, that it shouldn't be awkward.

She said "kinda"!!!!111!

[FurryFury]

It's funny, but Caitlyn's SL is the one I care most about on The Flash right now. I don't even know why because I'm not a big fan of the character or the actress. It just feels the most authentic to me. I'm sick of pep talks, I don't care about West Allen and I hate Iris being reduced to being an LI (but then the show never really found a role for her). Well, there's also Wells whom I guess I'll always love no matter what. Cisco's also OK, but kinda there, you know?

BS was a letdown, she just reminded me of how much I always hated Laurel. Although I think she had more chemistry with Teddy Sears (who continues to be super hot as Zoom) than she did with any male on Arrow. That was funny. As was her throwing shade on E1 Laurel - I wonder how KC felt about having to say that.

Henry's death was so telegraphed it hurt. 

Wally feels like a drag on the show. And I can't stand Joe/Wally relationship. Joe has this overbearing quality when it comes to his biological kids (but not Barry, he's special) that I absolutely detest. 

Quote

 this episode of Caitlin going from emotionally messed up to super fine was absurdly written.

I never got the impression she got super fine. In fact, I thought she lied and the culmination of that storyline is yet to come (I hope she gets to kill Zoom, or become Killer Frost, or something - but i'll probably be disappointed because this is The Flash).

Edited May 18, 2016 by FurryFury

[nksarmi]

2 hours ago, lemotomato said:

At least Barry/Iris doesn't have the bear the burden of cheating and sister-swapping, and anti-chemistry between the actors, I guess? I actually think they'll be fine-- I certainly can't picture Barry with anyone else-- if they were just given more time to show their romantic feelings onscreen instead of jumping in with "Oh well, the future says we should be together, so, yeah."

Really?

I can picture Barry with Felicity still (I know she loves Oliver but I would have easily bought into them as a couple).

I can picture Barry with Kara on Supergirl.

There have been times when I could have pictured Barry with Caitlyn (I have someone who ships them in my house - I don't, but I can see it).

It's really not that hard to believe that Barry could be with someone other than Iris when they have more of a brother/sister/best friend vibe than anything else. Earth 2 Barry and Iris made sense. Earth 1 not so much.

Since we had that one episode in season one that got erased by time travel - we know Iris does like Barry. But this season it really does seem kind of like "hmm, well I don't have any better offers - maybe I'll give it a try" as opposed to "Wait a minute, did I just check out Barry? Hmm maybe there could be something there."

[dtissagirl]

1 minute ago, apinknightmare said:

She said "kinda"!!!!111!

SILLY ME.

But I give them forever kudos for ruining a 'ship I wanted to root for IN THE PILOT EPISODE. Like. Yesterday I was watching the new shows promos and 10 seconds into the Conviction trailer I was already 'shipping. I'm a 'shipper. I 'ship therefore I am. I watch TV just so I can 'ship. I don't care about anything else if there's no 'ship in it for me. And these guys turn me off of it, it's uncanny.
 

[wonderwall]

3 hours ago, Slj said:

When are Barry and Iris unenthusiastic? Because there's not huge angst? It's a slow build. I don't want them mentally torturing each other like I hear Olicity do. I mean I've seen both Oliver and Felicity compared to abusers.

If anyone thinks Oliver/Felicity's relationship is comparable to an abusive one, then they don't deserve any respect nor do their arguments deserve to be given the time of day because trivializing abuse like that, imo, is disgusting. People who think O/F are abusive don't know what real abuse is which means they need to get some perspective, do their research or stop talking about i,t because their ignorance is staggering.

And this has nothing to do with the couple. And everything to do with people trivializing abuse (emotional or physical) and twisting it into something it's not just so they can talk trash about a fictional couple.

And this is talking about fans. And I'm sorry mods, feel free to delete if you want. It's just reading this made me angry. 

Edited May 18, 2016 by wonderwall

[NumberCruncher]

I put no credence into Oliver and Felicity being compared to abusers since 99.99% of the time it's being made by a source who is mad the show deviated from the canon couple that actually did have a horrible relationship.

I guess I'm in the minority that I don't really find the adopted brother/sister thing between Barry and Iris to be that big of a deal.  Then again, I also feel the same way about Steve Rogers kissing Peggy's niece, Sharon, which I know is a major source of angst among Captain America fans.  Barry and Iris are not blood related and Steve never had sex with Peggy--hell, they never even went on a date.

[lemotomato]

9 minutes ago, nksarmi said:

Really?

I can picture Barry with Felicity still (I know she loves Oliver but I would have easily bought into them as a couple).

I can picture Barry with Kara on Supergirl.

There have been times when I could have pictured Barry with Caitlyn (I have someone who ships them in my house - I don't, but I can see it).

It's really not that hard to believe that Barry could be with someone other than Iris when they have more of a brother/sister/best friend vibe than anything else. Earth 2 Barry and Iris made sense. Earth 1 not so much.

Since we had that one episode in season one that got erased by time travel - we know Iris does like Barry. But this season it really does seem kind of like "hmm, well I don't have any better offers - maybe I'll give it a try" as opposed to "Wait a minute, did I just check out Barry? Hmm maybe there could be something there."

To be fair, I don't ship Barry with anyone. (Actually, that's not true. I ship Barry with puberty.) I think Barry and season 1/2 Felicity might have worked, but she's far outgrown him emotionally and has matured since then. I don't watch Supergirl, but that's kind of a moot point, because they're not going to have a romance that crosses over shows. I don't find Barry's interactions with Caitlyn shippy because she's either been emotionally or actually in relationships with other other men during most of season 1/2. I guess what I'm saying is that if the show wants us to believe that Barry and Iris are supposed to be together, I can buy it, but it would nice to see more actual romantic development onscreen rather than just being told.