Mind Your Surroundings: Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow and Other Superhero Universes

[Lady Calypso]

I get the same impression about Caitlin. DP's acting actually reminds me of SA's acting in early season 1. Most people thought Stephen's acting was wooden, stilted and just plain bad, but I read it as him playing that way due to his character's history. Maybe he wasn't the strongest of actors back then and some of it was just bad line delivery, but I felt like Stephen had made Oliver very closed off and stilted and, at the very least, he's gotten a whole lot better since then. DP does have the acting chops. I've seen her on other shows and I think she does a fine job with what she has. Is she an amazing actress? No, but I personally don't see her as bad. I see her as playing her character as closed off since losing her fiance. She does have her humourous moments and I find that she hits those marks just fine. At least I don't get taken out of her scenes.

 

Now, KC, on the other hand, takes me out of most of her scenes. KC does have her good moments when she gets to snark or be a little bitchy. But warmth and kindness is not Katie's strong suit, imo. That's why I consider her the weakest out of both casts. 

[TanyaKay]

See, maybe I'm wrong, but I kind of thought that was on purpose. I thought that was more supposed to be Caitlin kind of closed down since Ronnie died.

 

I agree. And we can see in episodes 1x03 & in 1x07 how Caitlin is warming up to Barry because he is sweet enough to extend some warmth to her and actually ask her how she felt about her loss following the particle accelerator disaster. She then reciprocated that warmth by saying that she believed in him in 1x07 when Barry needed that. I think we will see more of her vulnerability when Ronnie comes back in present day. Her scenes with Ronnie Raymond were sweet/emotional when they shared screen in episode 1x03.

I think she is playing a reserved woman who is finally opening up - albeit a little slowly - to both Cisco (they went out for ice cream and drinks) and Barry - I also believe that she is supposed to be older than both Barry & Cisco so may be that is why she takes herself a bit more seriously around the boys. Not everyone can be insta friend like Barry who is this genuinely nice and warm person. Other people take time.

[Sakura12]

DP is playing the character the same way she's portrayed on screen. They are not telling us Caitlin is the nicest, warmest person ever (like someone else on another show). They all know she's got her walls way up, they even mentioned it. That makes a huge difference to me. 

 

It's hard to warm up to a character that's not warm (of course that is also probably because comics). But I see her slowly warming up around Barry and Cisco and I'm enjoying that. 

Edited November 26, 2014 by Sakura12

[Morrigan2575]

Yes, I would agree, she's deliberately cold, closed off. 103 really was the best episode for the character and the actress.

[statsgirl]

Didn't she even say that in the 103 episodes, that she's normally closed off and Ronnie reached out to her and warmed her up?  The 

Firestorm/Killer Front

foreshadowing that scene was layered on with a trowel.

[Danny Franks]

I would hope Caitlin is more of a repurposed name, than someone they actually intend to turn into Killer Frost. Because for one, that's such a shitty name for any supervillain. Two, Caitlin is probably the only thing about The Flash that I have anything more than a passing interest in. Turning her into a metahuman villain, or even hero, is just laziness in my view.

 

They can drop hints and easter eggs about her and Firestorm all they like, as long as they remain hints and easter eggs. The idea that she is naturally cool and reserved, and reacts positively to warmth from others, is far more subtle than most writing on either of these shows, so I'd like to think it was deliberately referencing the comic book version's powers.

[statsgirl]

At the crossover screening, when asked about whether Caitlin will become Killer Frost, AK said that 

if the show goes on for long enough, that may happen but right now he's happy with Caitlin and Cisco being who they are at Star Labs.  

 

Doesn't Ronnie show up in 1x09?

Edited November 26, 2014 by statsgirl

[Tangerine]

As others have mentioned, I think the stilted-ness is on purpose of how she kind of shut down after Ronnie died. She also mentioned that she was guarded even before his death, so that's part of her personality. I disagree she can't show emotions. When she's angry at Barry for taking stupid risks, I bought it came from a genuine place of being concerned for him. In 1x03, any time she talked about losing Ronnie I thought she did a great job. I agree that she's a character that's hard to get a handle on though: Wells is the interesting, layered character with ambiguous intentions. Cisco is the funny quirky comic relief, Iris is the warm, bubbly outgoing childhood friend. But I think DP does a decent job with what she's given.  I think CP is fine, but she also plays a character that's a lot easier to relate to and understand and Iris is a very likeable character. Personally, I think Caitlin is a more challenging role. The big disconnect a lot of viewers had, myself included with KC as Laurel is that we were being told one thing about what her character was supposed to be and seeing something completely different.

 

@dancingnancy, if you're watching TV wrong, so am I. I adore Caitlin. She's smart and sometimes single-mindedly all about science (she carries around a blood testing kit!), gets upset about how Operation is anatomically inaccurate and threatens her friends with lobotomies when they say stupid things. Despite her harshness, she's also loyal and caring and really believable as a good friend to Barry and Cisco. She's not all sunshine and puppies, and I think that's ok.

Edited November 27, 2014 by Tangerine

[dtissagirl]

Caitlin only felt cold and standoff-ish to me in the pilot, but then I was supposed to think that of her. It's in the actual text, in that conversation she had with Barry when he asked her why she never smiles. The way Danielle plays her actually reminds me a bit of the way Emily Deschanel plays Bones, except Caitlin doesn't lack empathy or social skills the way Bones did back when I used to watch that show. She's just very reserved, and grieving on top of that. But I really like her friendship with both Barry and Cisco, and I don't even like Cisco much.

I'm frustrated by the way they're writing Iris. Her not knowing the secret doesn't sit well with me because by hiding it from her, *for no real reason*, both Joe and Barry are put in a position of power over her, narratively speaking. She's making uninformed decisions through no fault of her own, and that's annoying for me to watch. I didn't find it interesting when it was Lois & Clark either. And it also bugs me because I like 'shipping couples, but I'm completely unable to 'ship Barry/Iris while he's keeping his powers a secret from her.

I also find what Barry is doing -- going to her as the Flash pretty much because he enjoys the attention she gives him ~without knowing it's really him~ -- super douchey. Yuck.

Edited November 27, 2014 by dancingnancy

[Danny Franks]

I'm frustrated by the way they're writing Iris. Her not knowing the secret doesn't sit well with me because by hiding it from her, *for no real reason*, both Joe and Barry are put in a position of power over her, narratively speaking. She's making uninformed decisions through no fault of her own, and that's annoying for me to watch. I didn't find it interesting when it was Lois & Clark either. And it also bugs me because I like 'shipping couples, but I'm completely unable to 'ship Barry/Iris while he's keeping his powers a secret from her.

I also find what Barry is doing -- going to her as the Flash pretty much because he enjoys the attention she gives him ~without knowing it's really him~ -- super douchey. Yuck.

 

That feels to me like the real reason he's hiding the truth from her. Because now he can flirt with her and possibly hit on her, without her ever knowing it's her brother doing it. These writers need therapy. And Iris will need therapy when she finally finds out that a guy she sees as her brother has been trying to seduce her. Even worse when she finds out her dad was cheering him on. Good grief.

[Password]

Joe cheering him on came as somewhat of a surprise actually. I mean we have Dig in Arrow, now Joe on The Flash being fanboys for relationships.

Although I still love Joe. He's brilliant. And I think Professor Wells is far more of a creep than elegant Moira, whom I don't think was. He's just outta his damn mind.

[Morrigan2575]

I hope it's ok to post this here, I don't know if anyone watches HISHE but I just saw this one for Guardians of the Galaxy, the Superhero Cafe at the end with Batman is freaking hysterical.

[wingster55]

I think Danielle was also stilted in the flashbacks with her and Ronnie.

I think her character is great...the writing for her is good + she is getting better in the role so I can enjoy her. 

 

I really don't view Barry and Iris as creepy or semi-incestual.

[NumberCruncher]

I hope it's ok to post this here, I don't know if anyone watches HISHE but I just saw this one for Guardians of the Galaxy, the Superhero Cafe at the end with Batman is freaking hysterical.

That's fantastic. Another HISHE classic. As per usual, the cafe scene with Superman and Batman is the highlight--especially the Groot/Batman name off. Thanks for the laugh.

[Morrigan2575]

That's fantastic. Another HISHE classic. As per usual, the cafe scene with Superman and Batman is the highlight--especially the Groot/Batman name off. Thanks for the laugh.

Yeah, the Superhero Cafe is always the best, that's probably the only version of Superman I actually find entertaining.

[foreverevolving]

Bringing this from the Flash forum.. because this forum and Thread is more alive than The Flash ones.

 

So I came across a post on another website, theorizing Wells is actually T.O Morrow. Had to search the character but.. it really does seems like a likely candidate just as much as the Monitor and New God theories are. but this one actually makes sense, both Wells and Morrow are science men, both have a machine that can show the future..

I know Morrow is a minor villain at best, but...

plus wasn't Wells named after H.G Wells who wrote The Time Machine?

[SonofaBiscuit]

I think that I read on here that Morena Baccarin is coming to Gotham, but did you know that she's the voice of Harrison Well's computer thingy that searched the newspaper from the future for any mention of the Flash?  I didn't even notice that was her voice.

 

http://tvline.com/2014/11/26/the-flash-morena-baccarin-voices-gideon/#more-568890

[DrSpaceman10]

I think that I read on here that Morena Baccarin is coming to Gotham, but did you know that she's the voice of Harrison Well's computer thingy that searched the newspaper from the future for any mention of the Flash?  I didn't even notice that was her voice.

 

I thought that was her voice when I watched it (I have a mild obsession with Firefly).

[SmallScreenDiva]

I wondered about that ... cool (I've a not-so mild obsession with "Firefly")!

[Tangerine]

Brought over from the Target Practice thread:
 

The Flash is pretty much the perfect example of throwaway TV. It's light, witty, easy to watch... but completely unmemorable. You can watch an episode, miss three or four, then watch again, and nothing important will have been missed.

   

Grant Gustin still doesn't convince me as a leading man, and I don't think he ever will. He just doesn't have the presence for it. His relationship with Iris is a serious problem, and I'm already skipping most of their scenes because they're so unpleasant to watch. Cisco is still the annoying, scrappy-do character.

 

While I enjoy The Flash a lot, I have to agree with it being 'throwaway TV.' The light tone is nice and refreshing, but it's not appointment TV for me because they haven't really set up an arc to get emotionally invested in yet. Arrow, at its best, was "can't-miss" TV for me. As intriguing as Wells is, you know that his reveal will be dragged out so if you miss an episode of the end tag of him doing something shady, you're still not missing much.

 

As for Gustin, he plays the role of Barry very well but I also don't really get a 'leading man' vibe from him either. I think part of the reason is that Barry is such a light-hearted, breezy character that he doesn't have to bring the same gravitas as most leading men. Stephen Amell is the very definition of a leading man to me because Oliver is such an emotionally challenging and complicated role and the show really is anchored around him. Gustin is charming, but Amell has presence and I feel SA's Oliver carries more of the show. The Flash feels like it's more reliant on the ensemble format.

Edited November 28, 2014 by Tangerine

[BkWurm1]

Can't miss vs Appointment TV is probably a good way of looking at it.  I happily gobble up episodes of The Flash with no reservation or hesitation and that's pretty big these days, but I wouldn't be absolutely crushed if something happened to make me miss the episode.  

 

I think Grant will grow into more gravitas as he inhabits the character longer.  He's already shown flashes of something more like when he wasn't able to save the guard from the freeze ray.  He undid the good his did by acting like a teenage weenie with his turning off his coms 'cause he didn't feel like talking...but I think he has it in himself to bring the right kind of emotions that will translate eventually into weight and gravitas. 

 

Right now Barry is still mostly playing around.  I think he again showed hints as a coming maturity when he was upset over Tony being a sacrificial lamb.  He's forming the lines he will and will not cross but he hasn't been really tested yet so he's still a kid at heart...he'll have to find a way to mature but still keep his playful side to stay in character.  That should be an interesting balance and one I think he'll be able eventually to pull off. 

Edited November 28, 2014 by BkWurm1

[foreverevolving]

Let's also not forget that I think Barry is maybe in early-mid 20's, with what appears to be limited experience in the social field so he's still learning. anyone who he didn't grow up with or speaks his science language is easy to be flustered around, especially if they appear to not like him- in that sense he is exactly like Felicity.

so i think as a person Barry is still growing, when the lightning struck him he was still very much an innocent maybe slightly naive person. now suddenly he is embracing this new powers and with them comes a growing level of maturity. unlike Oliver he didn't have to grow up instantly because his life was depended on it, so he's journey to maturity is happening at a slower speed. plus he didn't go through the same things Oliver did on those five years he was away, so it is only rational that he would be more upbeat and at times less mature than Oliver or even Felicity.

[KirkB]

so he's journey to maturity is happening at a slower speed.

 

Ironic, for the fastest man alive. Sorry, I couldn't resist. I agree with you though. I think Barry Allen spent his formative years completely wrapped up in his mother's death and his father's wrongful incarceration. It wasn't until he was hit by lightning he was able to see beyond his own limited reality and now he finally has a chance to grow into the man he's really supposed to be,

[TanyaKay]

Let's also not forget that I think Barry is maybe in early-mid 20's, with what appears to be limited experience in the social field so he's still learning. anyone who he didn't grow up with or speaks his science language is easy to be flustered around, especially if they appear to not like him- in that sense he is exactly like Felicity.

so i think as a person Barry is still growing, when the lightning struck him he was still very much an innocent maybe slightly naive person. now suddenly he is embracing this new powers and with them comes a growing level of maturity. unlike Oliver he didn't have to grow up instantly because his life was depended on it, so he's journey to maturity is happening at a slower speed. plus he didn't go through the same things Oliver did on those five years he was away, so it is only rational that he would be more upbeat and at times less mature than Oliver or even Felicity.

 

Yups, Barry mentioned in episode 1x05 that he is 25. He was quite sad when alcohol did not hit him and he mourned the fact that his drinking days are over at 25.

 

Yes, Barry is a bit of both, innocent and naïve, but he is also a genuinely optimistic person as well. No matter how much he grows up, he will always have this state pf wonder around him because that is who he is in real. At least that's how I perceive it and this is how he is in the comics as well. A happy optimist. Not everyone has to angsty and dark, as if we do not have Batman and Green Arrow for that.

[foreverevolving]

http://fponthedl.tumblr.com/post/103769594752/in-which-oliver-finally-gets-his-revenge-on

 

Edited November 29, 2014 by stacey

[SmallScreenDiva]

Oliver seems unnaturally calm and smiley considering he just shot arrows at his friend's back, LOL! I really want to know what's going on here, if the scene is "informed" by some details involving Felicity ;) I'm also very excited for the crossover because it sounds like there's a lot of Diggle in both (*fingers crossed he's not written OOC*)

[wingster55]

I think Grant already brings a layer of gravitas to Barry..he's just able to not be defined by it. 

[foreverevolving]

Oliver seems unnaturally calm and smiley considering he just shot arrows at his friend's back, LOL! I really want to know what's going on here, if the scene is "informed" by some details involving Felicity ;) I'm also very excited for the crossover because it sounds like there's a lot of Diggle in both (*fingers crossed he's not written OOC*)

I think that smile is before the arrows are shot. he seems kind of annoyed when he removed them... Lol. 

I partly want it to be Tuesday, but than Tuesday means Wednesday and the new school tri is starting in Wednesday and.. I am so not in the mood (even though I am already bored out of my ass by this term break).

[Genki]

I think that smile is before the arrows are shot. he seems kind of annoyed when he removed them... Lol. 

 

 

Oliver loves training an was excited to try something different with Barry, but it backfired and now he know he will be in trouble with Felicity...

[tv echo]

Here's one way that I think The Flash differs from Arrow...

 

I can picture a Flash musical episode in the future - perhaps tied into the freak of the week (like Buffy did some years back) - esp. given that Jesse L. Martin comes from a Broadway musical background (Rent) and of course Grant Gustin comes from Glee.  However, I cannot by the wildest stretch of imagination ever picture an Arrow musical episode.

[KirkB]

I can. Sort of. I could see Felicity getting knocked unconscious and dreaming of a fully animated Arrow cast doing a musical. Other than that, yeah you're right, Arrow does not lend itself to that sort of frivolity. It would kind of work on Flash, especially if someone like the Pied Piper were involved.

[statsgirl]

 However, I cannot by the wildest stretch of imagination ever picture an Arrow musical episode.

Arrow is more like a tragic opera, Oliver burdened like Seigfried, or something more modern by Samuel Barber.  (I was traumatized by Vanessa this summer.)

 

Thanks, but no thanks.  Although I'd really like to hear Barrowman, Haynes, Rickards and even Amell sing.

[TanyaKay]

They can still make them sing on Arrow.

Imagine a dysfunctional birthday dinner for Thea, where Malcolm gets drunk, sits in front of a piano and start singing something cheery like "These are some of my favorite things." Felicity would not be able to help herself so she will start humming along and so will Roy. Thea will beatifically smile at her dad and Oliver will sit in a corner and scowl at everyone for singing and being happy because that is so not on, particularly on his show.

[tessaray]

 

I really don't view Barry and Iris as creepy or semi-incestual.

Me, either.  They had a firmly established BFF relationship as kids.  Even if Joe hadn't taken Barry in, there's a good chance their relationship would be exactly where it is now.   Barry having a one-sided thing for Iris is kind of a relief after the mess that was the sister-swapping in Arrow. 

[foreverevolving]

You know... I think i'm starting to change my mind about Wells not being Felicity dad into: it may just be possible.
I ran the timelines in my head. Barry is 26, mom died when he was like 6is? that's about 20 years (give or take). Mama Smoak and Felicity mentioned that Papa Smoak left when she was around 5-6 years old too.. felicity is 25. both of those are 20 years, and are around the same time.
I don't know. I know it's unlikely - because kids at 6 do remember, if vaguely, as adults what their parents look like when they were 6, even if that parent died-- pictures!

oh I don't know. I wish we knew already.

[Morrigan2575]

I'm still stuck on Wells being from the future. I think he came back in time, killed Barry's mom to obtain the future he wants (Barry as hero) and then stayed around to keep an eye on everything and alter events to make Barry into The Flash.

What I can't connect is the Wells' wife, unless this guy isn't really Wells but claimed his life and Wells/Wife both died in the car accident?

Edited November 29, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[tessaray]

I thought Barry was more like 10 when his mother was killed?  I just binge watched the show to date this weekend, so it's all kind of running together in my mind, though. 

 

One thing that bugs me about super hero shows is how ignorance is supposed to keep someone safe.  Has it EVER worked out that way?  :-)  

[foreverevolving]

I thought Barry was more like 10 when his mother was killed?  I just binge watched the show to date this weekend, so it's all kind of running together in my mind, though. 

 

One thing that bugs me about super hero shows is how ignorance is supposed to keep someone safe.  Has it EVER worked out that way?  :-)  

 

good point.. soo, umm.... what if he left mama smoak for that Tess lady (either romantic or professional, maybe she found him and offered him a job he couldn't refuse. if she was gov. related it can explain the change of name and identity*) spend a few years with her, then she dies whatever else happened happened to make him knowledgable about events and he comes to central city?

 

*have we been told if Felicity last name is from her mom or her dad? cause her mom is still using Smoak. so it may have been her maiden name and when felicity was born she automatically used it, especially if her and daddy weren't married.

 

This guessing game is fun, and i am probably totally wrong.

[slayer2]

Looks like Constantine is toast :-(

I didn't even know it was airing right now. Clearly they have an awareness issue.

[foreverevolving]

I didn't even know it was airing right now. Clearly they have an awareness issue.

 

I think its problem was that it premiered way after every other fall show premiered. They should have premiered it in early -mid Oct, than they may have been able to draw a bigger crowd.

maybe it will get resurrected on netflix? i'll know if it's worth it by the end of Dec when i'll actually have time to watch it.

Edited November 30, 2014 by foreverevolving

[tessaray]

I wouldn't want Wells to be Felicity's father, what with the murdering people thing.  I'd be okay with him knowing about - or being involved with - his disappearance. 

[wingster55]

I wouldn't want an Arrow musical ep without Colin Donnell 

[BumpSetSpike]

 

I wouldn't want an Arrow musical ep without Colin Donnell

 

I have no interest in a musical episode of Arrow or even Flash for that matter.  I would love to see some behind the scenes footage of the casts singing and having fun together doing so, however!  I loved that really quick vid of Barrowman, Colton, and Emily in the bathroom singing. 

 

[tv echo]

Well, the 11/26/14 TV Line 'Ask Ausiello' Spoilers did say that

GG will break out into song in an upcoming episode of The Flash - possibly in the episode featuring the Pied Piper.

Edited November 30, 2014 by tv echo

[wingster55]

I heard that was a karaoke thing actually (per Grant's twitter) ..my guess is with Malese Jow 

[tv echo]

This looks great...

New Agent Carter Promo Gives First Look at Peggy’s Double Life
By Chris King on Dec 1, 2014
http://www.tvovermind.com/agent-carter-2/new-agent-carter-promo-gives-first-look-peggys-double-life-245700

 

This is an interesting article...

How Should Superman Return to TV?
By Paul on Dec 1, 2014
http://www.tvovermind.com/tv-news/superman-return-tv-245716

Edited December 1, 2014 by tv echo

[Trini]

http://fponthedl.tumblr.com/post/103769594752/in-which-oliver-finally-gets-his-revenge-on

 

 

Things like this always remind me of Heroes, and the "Claude Rains School of Hero Training". (Training methods include getting hit with sticks, and getting thrown off a roof.)

[foreverevolving]

Ugh! i'm so sick of superman (in TV form, the movies are so far apart and are short that i can live with them), than again he was never my favorite hero in the DC world, I always liked Batman and the bat - fam better (minus the Adam West show, cause that was a bad show by any standards).

 

But if they must make a superman show, I wouldn't mind them focusing on Lois Lane - maybe a prequel or something, I'm sure there is a rich enough material to use and create and still keep it original. but if so.. i rather they wouldn't. networks has this bad habit of either canceling a show too soon or far too late (as happened with smallvile) and i mostly like Lois Lane so i'd hate for them to do something to screw her up.

[KirkB]

How about The Daily Planet? Perry White hires Jimmy Olsen and a new reporter...Lois something. It could be kind of like Gotham, seeing Metropolis in the years before things started to get really weird. Clark Kent, meanwhile, is still off on his world tour and won't show up until the last episode.

Edited December 1, 2014 by KirkB

[dtissagirl]

The upcoming Supergirl series Greg Berlanti is developing is casting both Jimmy Olsen and Cat Grant for the pilot. So the Daily Planet might be involved somehow? Here's the rundown of the casting call:

http://tvline.com/2014/10/31/supergirl-casting-jimmy-olsen-cat-grant/