Mind Your Surroundings: Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow and Other Superhero Universes

[Oreo2234]

So it looks like Winn is in the crossover after all. Someone who seemed to have some inside info claimed he wasn't.

[quarks]

6 hours ago, wingster55 said:

Because, in all honesty, I never hear that term thrown around for white - white pairings. But interracial (especially when one is black)? Constantly. Iris and Barry. Rey and Finn. Rick and Michonne. 

Interesting, because I've never seen that term thrown around for Rey and Finn. I have seen it used for Rey and Kylo, depending upon what the fan thinks about Rey's parentage. And of course it's used all the time over on Game of Thrones, though in that case more as an accurate description of the characters' biological relationships.

I don't follow The Walking Dead or its fandom, so I can't comment on Rick/Michonne. But in the Arrowverse fandom, sure, I've seen that term thrown around for Barry/Iris, since it's one of the most common objections to the pairing. And I've seen it thrown once at Wally/Jesse, another interracial pairing, on the basis that they are both speedsters. But it also came up during for Oliver/Sara (a lot); Oliver/Laurel (somewhat less); Thea/Tommy in season one before the reveal of Thea's parentage; Oliver/Felicity prior to season three ("I just don't see it - he treats her like a little sister. It would feel incestuous to me") and even later for a few people ("It felt incestuous to me. I still see her as his little sister."); Snart/Mick ("I get such an incest vibe from those two"), and weirdly enough, Kara/Mon-El, based, apparently, on the "we're the only surviving members of our planets" thing (I feel, frankly, that we can all come up with better criticisms of this pairing, but that might just be me).  I've also seen it aimed at Archie/Betty and Jughead/Betty over on Riverdale and Mike/Eleven on Stranger Things. And back in the day it was absolutely thrown at Mulder/Scully and, to a lesser extent, Buffy/Angel and Angel/Spike, and to pretty much every major pairing on Dawson's Creek and some white-white pairings on Veronica Mars, and numerous other white-white pairings.

Sure, the Oliver/Felicity "little sister" stuff did eventually die down in season three (not so much after 320, but after Felicity slept with Ray, interestingly enough - I've often wondered if that was a small part of why Arrow had that scene, to establish that yes, Felicity was an adult who had sex, though obviously there were other reasons for that), but it was definitely there (in fact, it's on discussion pages on this very forum), and not just from fans, either - some critics commented that the biggest problem with turning Oliver/Felicity into a romantic relationship was that it would ruin that nice "big brother" vibe Oliver/Amell had created. 

And on a counter note, I've yet to see anyone throw that term towards James/Kara, Nate/Amaya, Diggle/Lyla, or Curtis/Paul and although plenty of fans complained, loudly, about Ray/Kendra, one of the most unpopular ships the Arrowverse has ever had, "it feels like incest" wasn't one of those complaints. ("They're so boring!" was the main complaint.) And contrary to your later comment, James/Kara was not a side pairing - it was the major pairing for Supergirl's first season. Fans called it boring and complained about wasting screentime on the love triangle/quadrangle, but they didn't use the term "incest."  That term has been thrown more at Kara/Mon-El.  

So yes, I will agree with you that, Game of Thrones aside, I often feel that "incest" is thrown around as shorthand for "I don't like this pairing," especially for people who don't necessarily want to articulate, or aren't able to articulate, specifics about why they don't like the ship - thus applying it to cases where canon makes it absolutely clear that the term incest doesn't apply.  And I don't think there's all that much question that at least some of the negative fan comments made about Barry and Iris are rooted in racism - I saw some pretty awful comments after just the casting announcement, for instance. 

With those two points stipulated, I don't think that's what's going on when the term "incest" is thrown at Barry/Iris. I want to be absolutely clear here: I don't read the pairing that way - the two of them aren't genetically related, and they met when they were little kids, but didn't move in together until Barry was eleven. So not incest. But even leaving aside Iris' early comment about how she and Barry were kinda if not exactly like brother and sister, Flash has also chosen to virtually go out of its way to emphasize Barry's family relationship with the Wests - having Barry refer directly to Joe as a father, Joe frequently call Barry his son or refer to Wally and Joe as sons, having Henry thank Joe for being Barry's father, and, just a few episodes ago, having Wally - who in canon did not grow up with the Wests - call Barry his brother.  And sure, we can add the phrase "in-law" to some of this, except that these comments also happened throughout the first two seasons, before Barry and Iris were together.

So fans are not pulling this "incest" thing as aimed at Barry and Iris,out of nowhere, or even out of how they are interpreting the way Oliver looks at Felicity in certain scenes or the way Mick and Snart interact with each other. They are reacting to actual words stated by the characters.  "Incest" might well be a shorthand term for "I don't like interracial relationships" in other contexts, but I don't think that's what's going on here at all.

I think the much better question is why Flash keeps including these comments, three seasons after the first fan comments/complaints about it, especially given the upcoming wedding which they certainly knew about at the end of last season - a wedding they presumably want fans to be excited about, not going "oh, man, incest" about. It's weird, because these ongoing comments seem to be the main reason some fans are reading/criticizing a non-incestuous relationship as incest. I think - and this is just a theory - that it's because, for Flash, the key relationship is not Barry/Iris (which frankly the show often seems to sideline, to its detriment) but Barry/Joe. So the script tends to focus on telling us how important/critical/beneficial that relationship is, without taking into account how that shapes the appearance of the Barry/Iris relationship, or fan reaction to it.  Which goes back to Flash's many issues with misogyny, but this post is already too long.

[Midnight Lullaby]

I see frequently people that hate Oliver and Felicity say that they are like brother and sister to insult the paring because they are both white and have blonde hair.

Anyway I liked Barry and Iris in season 1 then I lost interest in the show, I like Barry less than in the past so even if I've never seen another possible main couple for the Flash I don't really care if they are together. Watching season 1 I didn't feel like "ew, they are like siblings, I can't ship them" but more like "that's a weird ship stall writers." I don't think the girl being unable to see her great love in that way yet because she feels he is part of her family is a great set up for a ship but I think the writers wanted it both ways and the writing wasn't so great at times.

I don't see them as brother and sister but also I don't think it's impossible to see a relationship between two characters that aren't related and think they are family and not wanting them to be together romantically. My main example are Meredith and Alex on Grey's Anatomy that aren't related and met after med school..there are people I know who would like to see them together and my reaction is always "ew, they are basically brother and sister."

[Delphi]

15 hours ago, strikera0 said:

Are there any bi- or homosexual male characters on this show or is Constantine going to hook up with one of the girls (Sara or Zari)? 

I really would love Constantine to have a gay sex scene.   Mostly because I like eye candy while watching.   But also because while dctv does a decent job at lgbt representation (and hiring) it really feels sometimes that they use Sara's queer aspects for sex appeal while male gay characters are gay in name only.   Curtis is gay has a possibly ex husband but really it's more about him getting a mask or "funny" scenes about Oliver being straight when confronted with his hotness.  Or Captain Singh being on a diet for his husband.  Again,  "funny".  

[Starfish35]

Since the Supergirl ratings will be out in about 15 minutes, here's the results of the poll:

Edited October 10, 2017 by Starfish35

[Velocity23]

Whoever got 0.5, got it right for Supergirl

http://www.showbuzzdaily.com/articles/the-sked-monday-network-scorecard-10-9-2017.html

[Sakura12]

2 people got it right. 

I was trying to be generous with a 0.7 even though I had no plans to watch it. 

[Starfish35]

Ouch.  Not a great start. I did guess 0.5, but I thought I was probably being a little pessimistic. I wonder if that means the rest of the shows will return down, or if it will be just a Supergirl thing.

Also not a great start for Valor.

Edited October 10, 2017 by Starfish35

[Angel12d]

Ouch. That's terrible, especially for only s3. MB probably shouldn't have laughed at that joke/dig at Arrow's low ratings...

Edited October 10, 2017 by Angel12d

[JJ928]

Well, I was off. I predicted an 0.7, that's not good. Hope the rest of DCTV does better.

[SmallScreenDiva]

Maybe there's still a chance for it to bump up? I went with 0.6.

Hmmm, really interested in how Arrow's gonna do now. 

[Cleanqueen]

I wouldn't be shocked if Arrow does .5 also, I would laugh that a show in its 6th season is doing just as good as a show in it's third season.

Really curious to see if the other shows open poorly as well.

[Sakura12]

Most of the shows seem to be down from last season. Lucifer and Gotham were usually around a 1.0-1.1. last year. 

[Oreo2234]

I'm not surprised by that. The premiere wasn't as big and exciting as last years (or that well promoted) and with the exception of a few episodes Supergirl went a little downhill after the mid season. It was also a big mistake to shift the focus so much from Alex and Kara when Kara's relationships with Alex and Cat were the two most well received things about the show in the first season and they were losing Cat. The writers seem to realise that based on recent interviews but it might be a little too late.

Edited October 10, 2017 by Oreo2234

[GHScorpiosRule]

Like I posted in the Supergirl forum, how many times will that show continue to steal use Smallville plots? Last night it was just like Clark giving up his "humanity" because Jimmy Henry was murdered by Davis, but here, Kara's gave up being Kara, because her twu twu wuv of five months, if that, Mon-El, was "gone." He could be DEAD! Because Kara dreamed about her dead mom and Mon-El was there, so he could also be DEAD! Oh noes! And though it was a stupid plot on Smallville, it was even more ridiculous on Supergirl. At least it only lasted for one episode. Aaaand, they even ripped off the zombie episode from Smallville when they had the new Alura go all zombiefied, just like Durance's Lois did. How original.

BUT. The bigger issue for me is, neither Supes, or Kara, need to be this dark/gritty/grim character. We have enough of them in the DC universe already. Superman, Supergirl, and yes, even Flash, are supposed to be the light hearted heroes; the one with optimism and belief that most people are good. We already have Batman-lite with Oliver. They tried it with Barry and it was a giant motherfucking FAIL.

Edited October 10, 2017 by GHScorpiosRule

[Xander]

I bet The Flash will get at least a 1.0 tonight and LoT probably 0.6 as that time slot does help it. I don't think Supergirl's ratings are reflective of what will happen to other shows. Arrow has a new time slot so we'll just have to see how it does. 

Edited October 10, 2017 by Xander

[lemotomato]

TVGrimreaper posted last week that the ratings for all the shows that had premiered averaged around 15-18% lower compared to last year. The 0.5 for Supergirl would fall right into the range. He also pointed out that Valor is a CBS production, so the CW might have to keep airing it no matter how low the ratings get.

[Velocity23]

Flash sneak peak

[TwistedandBored]

3 hours ago, quarks said:

Interesting, because I've never seen that term thrown around for Rey and Finn. I have seen it used for Rey and Kylo, depending upon what the fan thinks about Rey's parentage. And of course it's used all the time over on Game of Thrones, though in that case more as an accurate description of the characters' biological relationships.

I don't follow The Walking Dead or its fandom, so I can't comment on Rick/Michonne. But in the Arrowverse fandom, sure, I've seen that term thrown around for Barry/Iris, since it's one of the most common objections to the pairing. And I've seen it thrown once at Wally/Jesse, another interracial pairing, on the basis that they are both speedsters. But it also came up during for Oliver/Sara (a lot); Oliver/Laurel (somewhat less); Thea/Tommy in season one before the reveal of Thea's parentage; Oliver/Felicity prior to season three ("I just don't see it - he treats her like a little sister. It would feel incestuous to me") and even later for a few people ("It felt incestuous to me. I still see her as his little sister."); Snart/Mick ("I get such an incest vibe from those two"), and weirdly enough, Kara/Mon-El, based, apparently, on the "we're the only surviving members of our planets" thing (I feel, frankly, that we can all come up with better criticisms of this pairing, but that might just be me).  I've also seen it aimed at Archie/Betty and Jughead/Betty over on Riverdale and Mike/Eleven on Stranger Things. And back in the day it was absolutely thrown at Mulder/Scully and, to a lesser extent, Buffy/Angel and Angel/Spike, and to pretty much every major pairing on Dawson's Creek and some white-white pairings on Veronica Mars, and numerous other white-white pairings.

Sure, the Oliver/Felicity "little sister" stuff did eventually die down in season three (not so much after 320, but after Felicity slept with Ray, interestingly enough - I've often wondered if that was a small part of why Arrow had that scene, to establish that yes, Felicity was an adult who had sex, though obviously there were other reasons for that), but it was definitely there (in fact, it's on discussion pages on this very forum), and not just from fans, either - some critics commented that the biggest problem with turning Oliver/Felicity into a romantic relationship was that it would ruin that nice "big brother" vibe Oliver/Amell had created. 

And on a counter note, I've yet to see anyone throw that term towards James/Kara, Nate/Amaya, Diggle/Lyla, or Curtis/Paul and although plenty of fans complained, loudly, about Ray/Kendra, one of the most unpopular ships the Arrowverse has ever had, "it feels like incest" wasn't one of those complaints. ("They're so boring!" was the main complaint.) And contrary to your later comment, James/Kara was not a side pairing - it was the major pairing for Supergirl's first season. Fans called it boring and complained about wasting screentime on the love triangle/quadrangle, but they didn't use the term "incest."  That term has been thrown more at Kara/Mon-El.  

So yes, I will agree with you that, Game of Thrones aside, I often feel that "incest" is thrown around as shorthand for "I don't like this pairing," especially for people who don't necessarily want to articulate, or aren't able to articulate, specifics about why they don't like the ship - thus applying it to cases where canon makes it absolutely clear that the term incest doesn't apply.  And I don't think there's all that much question that at least some of the negative fan comments made about Barry and Iris are rooted in racism - I saw some pretty awful comments after just the casting announcement, for instance. 

With those two points stipulated, I don't think that's what's going on when the term "incest" is thrown at Barry/Iris. I want to be absolutely clear here: I don't read the pairing that way - the two of them aren't genetically related, and they met when they were little kids, but didn't move in together until Barry was eleven. So not incest. But even leaving aside Iris' early comment about how she and Barry were kinda if not exactly like brother and sister, Flash has also chosen to virtually go out of its way to emphasize Barry's family relationship with the Wests - having Barry refer directly to Joe as a father, Joe frequently call Barry his son or refer to Wally and Joe as sons, having Henry thank Joe for being Barry's father, and, just a few episodes ago, having Wally - who in canon did not grow up with the Wests - call Barry his brother.  And sure, we can add the phrase "in-law" to some of this, except that these comments also happened throughout the first two seasons, before Barry and Iris were together.

So fans are not pulling this "incest" thing as aimed at Barry and Iris,out of nowhere, or even out of how they are interpreting the way Oliver looks at Felicity in certain scenes or the way Mick and Snart interact with each other. They are reacting to actual words stated by the characters.  "Incest" might well be a shorthand term for "I don't like interracial relationships" in other contexts, but I don't think that's what's going on here at all.

I think the much better question is why Flash keeps including these comments, three seasons after the first fan comments/complaints about it, especially given the upcoming wedding which they certainly knew about at the end of last season - a wedding they presumably want fans to be excited about, not going "oh, man, incest" about. It's weird, because these ongoing comments seem to be the main reason some fans are reading/criticizing a non-incestuous relationship as incest. I think - and this is just a theory - that it's because, for Flash, the key relationship is not Barry/Iris (which frankly the show often seems to sideline, to its detriment) but Barry/Joe. So the script tends to focus on telling us how important/critical/beneficial that relationship is, without taking into account how that shapes the appearance of the Barry/Iris relationship, or fan reaction to it.  Which goes back to Flash's many issues with misogyny, but this post is already too long.

 

I don't usually get into race discussion on this forum but please let's not act like interracial couples don't get more hated on then white couples. I found people use some of the stupids reasons on why an interracial couple's don't fit together and one of the most used tactic is the, "I don't see romantic chemistry between them. They have more brother/sister type of chemistry". Another awesome one some people use is say things like "they have best friend type chemistry". I mean I don't follow Star Wars and Walking Dead fandom but I have seen those type of words used against Rey and Fin and Michone and Rick. As for James and Kara, I saw people say he is too grown up for her or I see more friendship chemistry between them and look how that relationship ended. They have give them half an episode and moved on. There was a person on the previous page who used Abbie and Crane as an example and lol...We all know what happened there. Honestly, some people use so many dog whistle racial words that I sometimes think...just come out and say what you really mean. I just think as WOC, I am sometimes more aware of what tactics some people use when discrediting an interracial couples and I have seen it work many times. 

[Starfish35]

Legends of Tomorrow Boss on Living Closer to 'Jump the Shark' Line, Rip's New Role, Amplifying Female Voices

Quote

In Season 1, the Legends of Tomorrow battled Vandal Savage. After that, they got dogged by the Legion of Doom. Now, in Season 3 (premiering tonight at 9/8c, on The CW), yet another wild mission stands before them.

TVLine spoke with co-showrunner Marc Guggenheim about the Legends fixing what they done broke, the addition of some new faces and the joy of “taking the piss out of” its world-saving heroes.

[SmallScreenDiva]

18 minutes ago, TwistedandBored said:

I don't usually get into race discussion on this forum but please let's not act like interracial couples don't get more hated on then white couples. I found people use some of the stupids reasons on why an interracial couple's don't fit together and one of the most used tactic is the, "I don't see romantic chemistry between them. They have more brother/sister type of chemistry". Another awesome one some people use is say things like "they have best friend type chemistry". I mean I don't follow Star Wars and Walking Dead fandom but I have seen those type of words used against Rey and Fin and Michone and Rick. As for James and Kara, I saw people say he is too grown up for her or I see more friendship chemistry between them and look how that relationship ended. They have give them half an episode and moved on. There was a person on the previous page who used Abbie and Crane as an example and lol...We all know what happened there. Honestly, some people use so many dog whistle racial words that I sometimes think...just come out and say what you really mean. I just think as WOC, I am sometimes more aware of what tactics some people use when discrediting an interracial couples and I have seen it work many times. 

I'm not sure anyone is disputing that interracial couples get more hate or opposition than other couples or that phrases used about them are probably "code." The point I see people making is that in this particular instance with WestAllen, the reference to the ship feeling incestuous is, as pointed out in posts above, because the show itself keeps making a point of presenting the Wests as Barry Allen's family. It's really hard to ignore when the show keeps reminding viewers of that. And as a WOC, I too, am aware of the tactics used to put down interracial or POC ships ... and I see that with critics of WestAllen. Just not this particular argument about the use of the word incestuous. 

[BkWurm1]

28 minutes ago, TwistedandBored said:

 

I don't usually get into race discussion on this forum but please let's not act like interracial couples don't get more hated on then white couples. I found people use some of the stupids reasons on why an interracial couple's don't fit together and one of the most used tactic is the, "I don't see romantic chemistry between them. They have more brother/sister type of chemistry". Another awesome one some people use is say things like "they have best friend type chemistry". I mean I don't follow Star Wars and Walking Dead fandom but I have seen those type of words used against Rey and Fin and Michone and Rick. As for James and Kara, I saw people say he is too grown up for her or I see more friendship chemistry between them and look how that relationship ended. They have give them half an episode and moved on. There was a person on the previous page who used Abbie and Crane as an example and lol...We all know what happened there. Honestly, some people use so many dog whistle racial words that I sometimes think...just come out and say what you really mean. I just think as WOC, I am sometimes more aware of what tactics some people use when discrediting an interracial couples and I have seen it work many times. 

I don't think anyone could deny what you are saying, but would you agree that in the case of WA that the set up with the characters preemptively introduced the idea of a sibling like relationship to the audience?  So yes, sure, some probably are hiding behind code words and I think people should be aware of what often happens with interracial pairings but in this case to me it seems completely reasonable that people would have thought about them having a sibling like relationship since that's how it was introduced from Iris's perspective.   And at the very least, even though I don't see them as incestuous in the least, as a running gag, I find it very on the nose.  But at this point that's because of how much Joe is dad to both of them.   I can't imagine any set up like this with any color combination of couple not getting the same kind of ribbing.  

Edited October 10, 2017 by BkWurm1

[Cleanqueen]

I don't see Barry and Iris as brother and sister but the show throws it in my face more times than necessary. I did like the fact that they were friends from two different backgrounds who grew up together and built a bond over time. I no longer care for the couple because the show ruined it by making it about destiny and not really giving Iris agency in the relationship. They're still cute and aren't cringe worthy but to me they don't make me want to ship them hard like I do with other couples.

There are some racist undertones from certain ppl who don't ship them but I don't think race has anything to do with why a lot of people dont ship them. I think Iris deserves someone better than Barry, but if she chooses to be with him then i wont disregard her for wanting it. 

[insomniadreams88]

Arrow: Only Oliver, William, Dinah, Black Siren and Slade exist.

The Flash: Felicity's appearing in episode 5!

Arrow: Only Oliver, William, Dinah, Black Siren and Slade exist.

The Flash: http://www.eonline.com/news/886065/how-can-the-flash-get-barry-back-cisco-might-have-a-plan-in-premiere-sneak-peek 

Sneak peek from tonight's Flash shows Cisco saying he's been consulting with Felicity and Curtis about the speed force prison and freeing Barry. 

[Velocity23]

[statsgirl]

Supergirl premier:  I saw the  promo with Kara all mourning Mon El and said "Nope, not interested".  He's not even in town and he's still dragging the show down.

I've come to realize that there is a frightening amount of racism in US society but that's not why I'm against Iris and Barry.  #IrisAndEddieForEvah

4 hours ago, quarks said:

I think the much better question is why Flash keeps including these comments, three seasons after the first fan comments/complaints about it, especially given the upcoming wedding which they certainly knew about at the end of last season - a wedding they presumably want fans to be excited about, not going "oh, man, incest" about. It's weird, because these ongoing comments seem to be the main reason some fans are reading/criticizing a non-incestuous relationship as incest. I think - and this is just a theory - that it's because, for Flash, the key relationship is not Barry/Iris (which frankly the show often seems to sideline, to its detriment) but Barry/Joe. So the script tends to focus on telling us how important/critical/beneficial that relationship is, without taking into account how that shapes the appearance of the Barry/Iris relationship, or fan reaction to it.  Which goes back to Flash's many issues with misogyny, but this post is already too long.

This.  One of the main arguments posted here and on the Flash relationships thread is that Joe refused to let Eddie ask Iris to marry him because he knew that Iris really love Barry and not Eddie.  Not that Eddie even needed Joe's permission.  Iris is an adult and one of the most mature people on that show, and Eddie was respectful of her and her relationship with her father.

Take just a minute, WestAllen shippers, and think how you would feel if your father opposed the man you loved and were living with because he thought you should marry another guy that he would rather have you with.

In almost every way, the romantic relationship with Barry brings Iris down.

4 hours ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

I don't see them as brother and sister but also I don't think it's impossible to see a relationship between two characters that aren't related and think they are family and not wanting them to be together romantically. My main example are Meredith and Alex on Grey's Anatomy that aren't related and met after med school..there are people I know who would like to see them together and my reaction is always "ew, they are basically brother and sister."

Speaking of Grey's -- the Jackson/Maggie tease.  Her bio dad married his mother and they met when they were adults but people still object to it as incest.

3 hours ago, Delphi said:

  But also because while dctv does a decent job at lgbt representation (and hiring) it really feels sometimes that they use Sara's queer aspects for sex appeal while male gay characters are gay in name only.   Curtis is gay has a possibly ex husband but really it's more about him getting a mask or "funny" scenes about Oliver being straight when confronted with his hotness.  Or Captain Singh being on a diet for his husband.  Again,  "funny".  

The hypocrisy for me is that the gay actors are in heterosexual relationships while they use the female actors in on-screen gay relationships. It feels like titillation.

[Midnight Lullaby]

3 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

 

Sneak peek from tonight's Flash shows Cisco saying he's been consulting with Felicity and Curtis about the speed force prison and freeing Barry. 

It's what they deserve for writing such a dumb cliffhanger ????

[TwistedandBored]

I think more than Barry and Iris, I was responding more to the correlation between people who said Oliver and Felicity have brother/sister relationship to those who say it whenever an interracial couple is involved. Even when people said that about Olicity, it was a very minor voice whereas any time an interracial couple happens, this become the majority voice. And just because y'all haven't seen some people say Rey and Fin have brother/sister relationship relationship doesn't mean it doesn't exist and is not a well known method that has been used discredit a lot of couples. 

Oh and I understand why some people bring up the brother/sister card with Barry and Iris on TF. However, I do think the show has said over and said over that Barry had a crush way before he moved in with them after his parents death. Do, I think the show should have shown more flashback scenes of Barry and Iris before they moved in together, yeah, I do but with Arrowverse writers you get what you get.  So, while I can see how some people would not get over the whole growing up together thing I just wish people could be more respectful to those who actually like them in this AT. 

The Barry bashing, I am fine with it. He does done a lot over the last 3 seasons but when it extends to Iris which almost always happens then followed by a compliment to CP then I start side-eying some people like whatever man just what you really mean. 

[LeighAn]

It is possible that people just don't like Barry and Iris because the relationship was executed poorly and they don't have that great chemistry. I've seen a lot of people who don't like WestAllen who loved Iris and Eddie which is also an interracial relationship so tell me how that makes them racist?

Edited October 10, 2017 by LeighAn

[Velocity23]

Final Monday ratings

http://www.showbuzzdaily.com/articles/showbuzzdailys-top-150-monday-cable-originals-network-finals-10-9-2017.html

[statsgirl]

57 minutes ago, TwistedandBored said:

However, I do think the show has said over and said over that Barry had a crush way before he moved in with them after his parents death.

Barry was 11 (Arrow) or 9 (Flash) when he moved in with Joe.  Kids that age can get a crush on someone but I've never seen it extending to life partner except in fiction so I don't buy that as an argument especially when it's used to support that Barry was more mature than Iris and knew better than her what she wanted.  (Although s1 and 2 Barry was more like a kid with a crush than an adult with adult feelings.)

[Velocity23]

[LeighAn]

Supergirls ratings probably do not bare well for Arrow/Legends which sit at the lower end of the flarrowverse ratings ☹️ Also curious to see The Flash ratings now. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

8 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Barry was 11 (Arrow) or 9 (Flash) when he moved in with Joe.

He was 11 and already had a mega crush on Iris before his mother was murdered. The kid they used in last season's flashback was just looked like he was 7 or 8. But on The Flash, it's been stated he was 11 when he moved in, which was shortly after his father was convicted.

And well, this show is fiction-it's based on comics, so I have no problem believing his crush developed into love.

Edited October 10, 2017 by GHScorpiosRule

[Velocity23]

Another LOT sneak peak

http://www.accesshollywood.com/videos/exclusive-dcs-legends-of-tomorrow-season-3-sneak-peek/

[Angel12d]

Supergirl didn't change at all. I'm surprised. I thought it might adjust up a little. Yikes.

[Xander]

Supergirl's ratings very rarely adjust up, unlike The Flash.

[Angel12d]

2 minutes ago, Xander said:

Supergirl's ratings very rarely adjust up, unlike The Flash.

Oh really? I don't usually follow Supergirl ratings. Or Flash tbh. Haha.

Maybe their L+3 and L+7 numbers will be better.

[Starfish35]

Retweeted by the TV Grim Reaper this afternoon:

https://mobile.twitter.com/crupicrupicrupi/status/917822059455156224

Edited October 10, 2017 by Starfish35

[Velocity23]

[ruby24]

I saw footage of them doing the double wedding. Gross, it's literally two at once.

I hate this.

[Velocity23]

Just now, ruby24 said:

I saw footage of them doing the double wedding. Gross, it's literally two at once.

I hate this.

It could have been a rehersal. 

[TwistedandBored]

1 hour ago, LeighAn said:

It is possible that people just don't like Barry and Iris because the relationship was executed poorly and they don't have that great chemistry. I've seen a lot of people who don't like WestAllen who loved Iris and Eddie which is also an interracial relationship so tell me how that makes them racist?

I never said people who don't ship WestAllen are racist. Also, the whole I ship this 1 interracial couple so I am not a racist thing is sort of like the shipping equivalent of saying I am not a racist, I have a POC friend. I am not saying anyone is racist, just fyi that is just how it comes across sometimes. 

See, this is why I dislike discussing race. Some people feel attacked. I usually stay out of the drama around here but apparently this time I didn't stay on course. Anyways, let's move on from this topic.

3 minutes ago, ruby24 said:

I saw footage of them doing the double wedding. Gross, it's literally two at once.

I hate this.

OMG! Really. PM me

[Xander]

42 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

Oh really? I don't usually follow Supergirl ratings. Or Flash tbh. Haha.

Maybe their L+3 and L+7 numbers will be better.

Yeah, that would be a better indicator of if people forgot/postponed or have stopped watching altogether. 

[Sakura12]

I like Iris and I don't like Barry that's why don't ship them. I think Iris deserves better then a guy that keeps ditching her for his mother or changing the time line because he doesn't like it. 

Edited October 10, 2017 by Sakura12

[raven]

This is thread is more for general discussion on the different Super universes and potential and actual cross overs.  Please take specific and detailed discussions on show characters and relationships to their appropriate forums and topics.   The Barry/Iris relationship has been detailed enough in this topic and can be continued here if you are so inclined.

Thank you and Happy Premiere Week!

[Primal Slayer]

6 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Like I posted in the Supergirl forum, how many times will that show continue to steal use Smallville plots? Last night it was just like Clark giving up his "humanity" because Jimmy Henry was murdered by Davis, but here, Kara's gave up being Kara, because her twu twu wuv of five months, if that, Mon-El, was "gone." He could be DEAD! Because Kara dreamed about her dead mom and Mon-El was there, so he could also be DEAD! Oh noes! And though it was a stupid plot on Smallville, it was even more ridiculous on Supergirl. At least it only lasted for one episode. Aaaand, they even ripped off the zombie episode from Smallville when they had the new Alura go all zombiefied, just like Durance's Lois did. How original.

BUT. The bigger issue for me is, neither Supes, or Kara, need to be this dark/gritty/grim character. We have enough of them in the DC universe already. Superman, Supergirl, and yes, even Flash, are supposed to be the light hearted heroes; the one with optimism and belief that most people are good. We already have Batman-lite with Oliver. They tried it with Barry and it was a giant motherfucking FAIL.

How is that a Smallville plot? That is just a basic hero/alien trope in general. It literally happens all the time. 

[statsgirl]

Just saw Supergirl.  Of course it's Mon El who makes her wake up and saves her life. Of course it is.

For everyone who complained that James was too inexperienced to run Catco, we now have Kara running it after all of 2 years of experience as a PA and cub reporter.

I'm not surprised that it's going to be a double wedding.  Disappointed but not surprised.  Arrowverse has a way of spitting in my soup.

[Delphi]

Gee, Rip,  could you maybe be a bit less catty to the people who've given up two years of their lives,  been shot,  brainwashed,  murdered and had their necks snapped (by you!) just to help you in some doomed crusade. 

Edited October 11, 2017 by Delphi

[Starfish35]

20 minutes until The Flash premiere...

Reposting the links for the polls for guessing the premiere ratings if anyone missed them a couple pages back:

Guess The Flash season premiere ratings

Guess the Legends season premiere ratings

ETA:  I'll post a poll for the Arrow premiere ratings over in the regular Arrow Ratings thread.  I was going to put it up tomorrow night - would you all like it up earlier? 

Edited October 10, 2017 by Starfish35