S13.E09: The Bad Place

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, bethy said:

Sorry. I wasn't trying to respond to specific things that you said, just trying to say generally that I didn't see that scene the same way you did. Your suggestion that Dean might be mad or hurt was what stuck with me. I don't feel like it's an obvious plot contrivance - it wasn't for me at least. It seemed like a natural exchange between two people in regards to another person who wasn't there. That was my point. 

I gotcha.

Whilst I do not think Dean is upset that "Cas" is speaking with Sam, I also don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that Dean might be upset that Cas left again. The loss of Cas and Mary nearly destroyed Dean. He had given up hope. He wanted to die. Literally. Or didn't care if he kept living is more like it. And he was so happy to have Cas back that he was practically giddy. So, however he hears about Cas,  I'm sure he's happy to believe he is well. UGH . That's gonna be another thing for them to deal with when that nugget is revealed. 

[Wayward Son]

48 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

The Flash TV show kinda has exact the same problem, though, so the Winchesters aren`t completely alone. Not even on the CW.  :)  

Going to reply in the Winchester smack down thread :)

[SueB]

if Berens goes with Wayward I will be sorely dissappointed for Supernatural, thrilled for Wayward, and estatic for the writer himself.  He's got a great appreciation for character.  And cleary he's not egotistical -- between yesterday's generous statement that the best scene was one he forgot, and today talking about how he thinks Dabb was right -- he's not trying to make himself look good.  I think he's got an excellent handle on the boys but I think Wayward has become his passion.  But he's relatively new - so he might be paired with a senior executive like Phil S. or someone in LA.  

I still am just stunned at what a great new character Kaia is.  And I don't think she was remotely propped up at the expense of Sam and Dean.  I was completely engrossed in where Sam, Dean and Jack were at (mentally).  I also agree with those who mention Kevin's 'treatment'.   Dean was a 'play through the pain' guy back then.  Still, I want him to speak to Kaia about The Bad Place and apologize to her directly.  I don't actually think we'll get that but I hope we do.  

Beren's has made it clear many things were left UNSAID on purpose.  I'm hoping for payoff.  

[Princess Sparkle]

Reminder: The episode thread is for posts about the episode only. If you want to discuss the writers, take that to the writers thread. Posts have been hidden. 

[auntvi]

25 minutes ago, SueB said:

I still am just stunned at what a great new character Kaia is.  And I don't think she was remotely propped up at the expense of Sam and Dean.  I was completely engrossed in where Sam, Dean and Jack were at (mentally). 

I think this is my favorite episode this season. The actor playing Kaia is wonderful IMO and has great chemistry with Alex, who I think is also wonderful. Both of them play really well with Sam & Dean, and Jared didn't come across as wallpaper.

I hope the dinosaur foot print story doesn't go anywhere, because that just killed the momentum created by the rest of the episode. IMO.

[ILoveReading]

https://thejabberwock.tumblr.com/post/168324580471/tactile-dean-the-gestures-and-stressed-finger

The last picture is what I was talking about earlier where Dean just looks so done.

[sarthaz]

What kind of asshole tells their kid, "If you do this, don't ever come back."  Oh wait ...

Haven't read the whole thread, but why the f* didn't they just draw an angel-banishing sigil?

Is every episode going to be setup for Wayward?  I'm excited about the new show, but these rando female backstories kinda suck.  I haven't read any deets on the new show, but it couldn't be more obvious that Patience and Kaia will be on it.

[catrox14]

Haven't read the whole thread, but why the f* didn't they just draw an angel-banishing sigil?

This was my question. I think it was because they didn't want to possibly kill Jack ....I guess...I dunno

14 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

What kind of asshole tells their kid, "If you do this, don't ever come back."  Oh wait ...

Haven't read the whole thread, but why the f* didn't they just draw an angel-banishing sigil?

Is every episode going to be setup for Wayward?  I'm excited about the new show, but these rando female backstories kinda suck.  I haven't read any deets on the new show, but it couldn't be more obvious that Patience and Kaia will be on it.

[companionenvy]

Yeah, I don't get Patience's father.

He decided his mother was a fraud -- despite presumably having evidence of multiple successful predictions --  because she was wrong about his wife's illness. He then cut her out of his life completely because... they couldn't count on her? Because she would bring danger to them?... even though there's no evidence she ever brought danger on the family, and his wife's death had zero to do with her.  Plus, Missouri lived well into her sixties, and could have escaped at the end if not for her dumb and irrational idea of serving as a warning.

He then tries to stop his daughter from being a psychic, even though we've never heard of any way of stopping being a psychic.  In order to keep her safe, he tells her not to come back if she leaves. Yes, I get that he was hoping the ultimatum would make her stay, but it doesn't leave him with much of a plan "B" if she leaves.

Father of the year, that one. 

[DittyDotDot]

4 hours ago, sarthaz said:

Haven't read the whole thread, but why the f* didn't they just draw an angel-banishing sigil?

Sam suggested they lure the angels in and use the sigil, but Dean pointed out if the angels got in, they'd be dead. I took it to mean that there just were too many angels and if they let the in they wouldn't be able to banish all of them.

I think this might go back to the discussion we had back at the start of the season as to how the banishing sigil seems to have changed over the years. When it was first introduced, it seemed the banishing sigils banished any angel within a certain distance. That's how it worked for Anna, she was in a completely different room when she banished the angels. But, over the years, it seems angels need to be in a line of sight of the sigil for it to work. They usually lure the angel in close before they reveal the sigil and banish the angel. Which when you're up against an army of angels, that might not be the best strategy.

However, it does seem to be a lot smarter than attempting to open a portal to another universe with a couple kids who have never done that before... . 

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

That's how it worked for Anna, she was in a completely different room when she banished the angels.

She was in a different room, but she was still in the same little cabin.  So, she wasn't very far away.  I imagine most of the times they have been inside versus outside, the angels would have been further away than she was from Uriel and Castiel.

 

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

However, it does seem to be a lot smarter than attempting to open a portal to another universe with a couple kids who have never done that before... . 

What might have been smarter would be to remember that Jack can teleport.  Maybe he could only take one person out at a time for whatever reason, but I'm sure he could teleport 3 times faster than the angels could have broken the angel warding.

[Wayward Son]

27 minutes ago, Katy M said:

What might have been smarter would be to remember that Jack can teleport.  Maybe he could only take one person out at a time for whatever reason, but I'm sure he could teleport 3 times faster than the angels could have broken the angel warding.

Aside from Guck, have we actually seen any character teleport another person with them? 

 

Eta: Never mind! I actually remember some instance myself now. 

Edited December 10, 2017 by Wayward Son

[DittyDotDot]

47 minutes ago, Katy M said:

What might have been smarter would be to remember that Jack can teleport.  Maybe he could only take one person out at a time for whatever reason, but I'm sure he could teleport 3 times faster than the angels could have broken the angel warding.

Can Jack teleport?  I mean, I'm sure he does have that ability, but I don't think he has used that ability and/or is aware of the ability himself. He's knocked both Sam and Dean out a couple of times and was gone when they woke up, but I can't recall seeing him teleport.

53 minutes ago, Katy M said:

She was in a different room, but she was still in the same little cabin.  So, she wasn't very far away.  I imagine most of the times they have been inside versus outside, the angels would have been further away than she was from Uriel and Castiel.

Yes, that was my point, they seem to need to be in very close proximity to use the sigil, which is useful when it's just one or two angels, but seems kinda useless against an army of them.

[Morrigan2575]

Late to the party but I enjoyed this episode. They cast a good actor for Jack he has a creepy look (especially with that haircut) so it was easy for me to believe Jack went bad and killed the first Dream Walker.  The actor also has a way of playing scenes with Sam/Dean that make him vulnerable/likeable.

I've actually enjoyed the way the show has been building up the spinoff even though I wasn't a fan of Kaia. She has potential but, I just found her grating. I saw comments about Patience being boring but, I like her she's no drama and seems like a good person.

I was utterly confused by the ending I thought it was a giant bird or something, guess it was a dinosaur track (makes sense, it did remind me of Jurassic Park).

I'm honestly not sure if I'll like Sam/Dean in Dino Wolrd that might be a step too far. However, I am curious as to where they go from here. Sam/Dean in Dino World, Mary/Jack in The Bad Place, Castiel/Jody + Girls in Real World trying to get everyone back?

Edited December 10, 2017 by Morrigan2575

[MysteryGuest]

My only head cannon as to why they didn't use the banishing sigil was because they didn't actually know how many angels there were.  Dean said "there are too many of them", so I took this to mean that they might do the sigil thing and banish some of the angels, but they didn't know how many others there were.  Obviously, the entire point was to force them to try to escape to another world.  Again, if I squint, it makes enough sense to me that it didn't really bother me too much.

Jack can teleport.  When he left the Winchesters and Cas, he teleported out of the Bunker.  

I had an issue with Patience's father's response because I could swear that in the first episode we meet them, he's remorseful that he didn't believe his mother.  At least he seemed so when coming clean to Patience as to why she wasn't a part of their lives.  So it seemed odd to me that he would then turn around and do the exact same thing to his daughter.  I know that the plot requires that these Wayward women be free of family ties, but that did seem a bit contrived for me.  It would have been better had they allowed his character to be killed in the first episode.  But maybe they plan to use him later on to bring some family drama to Wayward.  Patience can be torn between her father and what she's choosing to do with her life.  Otherwise, it really makes no sense.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

Can Jack teleport?  I mean, I'm sure he does have that ability, but I don't think he has used that ability and/or is aware of the ability himself. He's knocked both Sam and Dean out a couple of times and was gone when they woke up, but I can't recall seeing him teleport.

He teleported out when he left the bunker in 13.06. He didn't knock out Sam, Dean and Cas then, he just threw them back away from him. And you could hear the sounds of his wings fluttering when he left. 

Edited December 10, 2017 by catrox14

[RileyMay]

24 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

He teleported out when he left the bunker in 13.06. He didn't knock out Sam, Dean and Cas then, he just threw them back away from him. And you could hear the sounds of his wings fluttering when he left. 

Would the angel warding that's keeping the angels out also prevent Jack from teleporting out?

[catrox14]

22 minutes ago, RileyMay said:

Would the angel warding that's keeping the angels out also prevent Jack from teleporting out?

Hard to say. It think it's possible that Jack's human side makes the angel warding less effective against him. Sort of like when Demon!Dean became more human he could get out of the devil's trap.  Sam did the angel b gone in 13. 01 which didn't zap Jack as well, unless that was a special sigil that didn't include Jack, which if that was the case, Sam could have done that in this episode.

IMO this was all Plotonium in a heavy dose here to make sure they just HAD to use the dreamwalking to escape.

Edited December 10, 2017 by catrox14

[MysteryGuest]

When they used the sigil to blast the angels away while Jack and Sam were in the cell, it didn't affect Jack at all.  So I don't think the sigils works on him.  I don't think it works on Lucifer, either, does it?  I don't remember them ever using it against him.  I think it's just for your run-of-the-mill angels, not Archangels.

Edited December 10, 2017 by MysteryGuest

[Pondlass1]

I still don't get why angels are driving about in decrepit old cars and not transporting.  Is it because their wings are broken still?  They can't fix wings?  And exactly how is Jack supposed to make new angels?  

But those boat dock scenes were awesome.  The episode looked expensive sometimes.

[Katy M]

13 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

I still don't get why angels are driving about in decrepit old cars and not transporting.  Is it because their wings are broken still?  They can't fix wings?  And exactly how is Jack supposed to make new angels?  

But those boat dock scenes were awesome.  The episode looked expensive sometimes.

Yes, their wings are still broken.    Lucifer is the only angel whose wings aren't broken because he didn't actually fall.  Because show expects us to believe that there wasn't one single angel on earth when the fall happened.  Even though we know there were at least a couple down there earlier in the day.  Also, since Cas didn't actually fall (or he would have died since he was human) not sure why his wings are broken.  If it was a spell that just broke the angels wings whether in Heaven or not, and not the fall, why didn't it affect Lucifer also?

Jack's supposed to make new angels by making them because he is just that powerful.

[catrox14]

22 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Yes, their wings are still broken.    Lucifer is the only angel whose wings aren't broken because he didn't actually fall.  Because show expects us to believe that there wasn't one single angel on earth when the fall happened.  Even though we know there were at least a couple down there earlier in the day.  Also, since Cas didn't actually fall (or he would have died since he was human) not sure why his wings are broken.  If it was a spell that just broke the angels wings whether in Heaven or not, and not the fall, why didn't it affect Lucifer also?

Jack's supposed to make new angels by making them because he is just that powerful.

Cas' wings didn't burn because he didn't fall. IMO, Metatron stealing his grace broke his wings. It's the only reason I can think. And since he only got part of his grace back from Metatron, he powered back up with tattered wings. Thus he can't teleport, but he can heal humans, hear angel radio. That's my headcanon anyway.

Lucifer was still in the Cage with Michael so both should have had their wings intact.  Which is why Michael being completely broken in the Cage, is a big fat pile of poo. He had his grace just like Lucifer so why he would go mad is beyond me.

[CluelessDrifter]

1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said:

When they used the sigil to blast the angels away while Jack and Sam were in the cell, it didn't affect Jack at all.  So I don't think the sigils works on him.  I don't think it works on Lucifer, either, does it?  I don't remember them ever using it against him.  I think it's just for your run-of-the-mill angels, not Archangels.

I think Sam used it against Lucifer in The Vessel.  

[catrox14]

Just now, CluelessDrifter said:

I think Sam used it against Lucifer in The Vessel.  

My head canon is that it worked because he was in Castiel at the time. And right before that Castiel had pushed Lucifer down to help Sam, so then maybe Castiel was fighting for control and was partially on top still at e moment Sam hit the sigil, so it worked. . 

[bozodegama]

Seems like they could’ve blasted some of the angels away with the sigils.  Jack seems all powerful so he could’ve killed a few and they could’ve used holy oil to trap them.  How the hell are they going to kill the dinosaurs, throw their angel blades up at their hearts?  They’ll probably meet au Dino world Bobby who knows how to hide/kill whatever is there.  Whole lot of stuff going on this year.  

[MysteryGuest]

4 minutes ago, bozodegama said:

They’ll probably meet au Dino world Bobby who knows how to hide/kill whatever is there.

Now that's funny!  I love Bobby, but Dinosaur Bobby would be too much, even for me.  LOL.  

[Katy M]

14 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

My head canon is that it worked because he was in Castiel at the time. And right before that Castiel had pushed Lucifer down to help Sam, so then maybe Castiel was fighting for control and was partially on top still at e moment Sam hit the sigil, so it worked. . 

No, I think it works on archangels.  I don't know why it wouldn't.  And, regardless of who is in control, an archangel would still be there, so if it wouldn't work, it wouldn't work.

 

7 minutes ago, bozodegama said:

Seems like they could’ve blasted some of the angels away with the sigils.  Jack seems all powerful so he could’ve killed a few and they could’ve used holy oil to trap them.  How the hell are they going to kill the dinosaurs, throw their angel blades up at their hearts?  They’ll probably meet au Dino world Bobby who knows how to hide/kill whatever is there.  Whole lot of stuff going on this year.  

 I doubt they had time to grab holy oil on the way into the boat.  

[CluelessDrifter]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

My head canon is that it worked because he was in Castiel at the time. And right before that Castiel had pushed Lucifer down to help Sam, so then maybe Castiel was fighting for control and was partially on top still at e moment Sam hit the sigil, so it worked. . 

Head canon is sometimes the only way to explain things on this show.  Personally,  I think that Lucifer was in control, and that made the vessel his, so it did work on him.  I guess I've always thought that it works on their grace, so maybe it was both, since Cas was there too, but I'd think that would mean they would have been separated if it was banishing them both to parts unknown. If regular angels see it coming, they can make the sigils vanish, so I've always just thought that archangels are supposed to be faster/more powerful, which would make getting those sigils drawn without them stopping you is a lot harder to do.  

[catrox14]

28 minutes ago, Katy M said:

No, I think it works on archangels.  I don't know why it wouldn't.  And, regardless of who is in control, an archangel would still be there, so if it wouldn't work, it wouldn't work

I really don't think angel banishing sigils work on archangels. Or they didn't before The Vessel. 

They have never shown that to be a thing other than in the Vessel. And I am putting that to Castiel being the host body which is why it could be blasted away. Or LOL canon in that episode.  I suppose there could be a specific sigil only for archangels that Sam used but I can't remember any other time it was shown to be a thing.

It seems to me if it did work on archangels, Castiel wouldn't have needed to trap Raphael in Holy Fire forever. And it took that salt thing to finally destroy Raphael IIRC. 

[catrox14]

54 minutes ago, bozodegama said:

Seems like they could’ve blasted some of the angels away with the sigils.  Jack seems all powerful so he could’ve killed a few and they could’ve used holy oil to trap them.  How the hell are they going to kill the dinosaurs, throw their angel blades up at their hearts?  They’ll probably meet au Dino world Bobby who knows how to hide/kill whatever is there.  Whole lot of stuff going on this year.  

I'm betting on Ruby 2.0 showing up in that universe. I bet she's the person in the hoodie cape thing. Or maybe Charlie.

[Dobian]

Except for the boys landing in Jurassic Park (will have to wait for the second half of the season to see where that leads), I liked the mid-season finale.  And I liked the first half season.  Jack has turned into a surprisingly welcome addition, and the writers have gotten mostly away from the cheesiness that has dragged down the show in the past.  I hate to say it, but not having Crowley and Rowena around helps a lot with that, as well as a much less powerful Lucifer.  I also like the focus on a couple of female characters, Patience and Kaia, on a show known for its sometimes shoddy treatment of female characters.  Supernatural might be old, but it has my interest again so good job.

Edited December 10, 2017 by Dobian

[Res]

I'm curious about something I keep seeing in this thread and wonder if someone can explain it. Why is dino world a step too far considering some of the other episodes we've seen and some that are rumored to be coming up later this season?

Don't get me wrong. I think this show has jump, killed, reanimated, jump, killed the reanimated shark several times over to the point that it's a dead reanimated zombie Fonzie jumped megladon shark. But WHY is dino world the step too far? That comment keeps confusing me, considering I believe the upcoming highly anticipated episode is way too far but then I thought the cartoonish episode in S8 was way too far as well. I know others love that sort of thing, and it's ok sometimes, but I didn't appreciate it on this show. I also thought Changing Channels was too far at the time but now it's one of my fav episodes. Can't say the same about the other though.

Edited December 10, 2017 by Res
additional thought

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I really don't think angel banishing sigils work on archangels. Or they didn't before The Vessel. 

They have never shown that to be a thing other than in the Vessel. And I am putting that to Castiel being the host body which is why it could be blasted away. Or LOL canon in that episode.  I suppose there could be a specific sigil only for archangels that Sam used but I can't remember any other time it was shown to be a thing.

It seems to me if it did work on archangels, Castiel wouldn't have needed to trap Raphael in Holy Fire forever. And it took that salt thing to finally destroy Raphael IIRC. 

They have also never shown it to not be a thing.  The show has only had 4 archangels (since they apparently downgraded Metatron after Kevin declared him to be one).  They have only tried to banish one with one of them.  It worked.  If you're going to tell me the reasoning is that they didn't use it because they knew it wouldn't work on an archangel, then using it in The Vessel made no sense, because there was no reason for Sam to be able to work out what your head canon worked out to.  There definitely would not have been a precedent for that.

How would Castiel blasting Raphael away with a sidgil have even been an option when the whole point was that Cas wanted to question him. They actually lured him there.

The salt thing didn't destroy Raphael, just his meat suit.  But, anyway, the blasting sigil doesn't actually destroy anything, it just sends it away, so I'm not sure why you are comparing the two.

 

I can't state for certainty that the sidgiels work for archangels that aren't sharing a vessel with another angel, but you really have zero proof that it doesn't other than that they never used it before.  And, your theory just makes no sense to me, but that's  OK.  It's your theory not mine, so it only needs to make sense to you.

[MysteryGuest]

1 hour ago, Res said:

I'm curious about something I keep seeing in this thread and wonder if someone can explain it. Why is dino world a step too far considering some of the other episodes we've seen and some that are rumored to be coming up later this season?

For me, it's because 1) I don't think they could ever pull off the special effects enough to not have it look cheesy, and 2) the show is about the supernatural, so ghosts, monsters, witches...that all works.  But traveling to some prehistoric planet where Dinosaurs still walk the earth just seems too whacked out for me.  I think Catrox made reference to "Land of the Lost" in one of her posts, and that's what it reminds me of.  I don't really want them going there.  If it were something Purgatoryesque, that I could live with.  Like anything else, too much is too much, and that includes alternate universes.  

[BoxManLocke]

1 hour ago, Res said:

I'm curious about something I keep seeing in this thread and wonder if someone can explain it. Why is dino world a step too far considering some of the other episodes we've seen and some that are rumored to be coming up later this season?

Don't get me wrong. I think this show has jump, killed, reanimated, jump, killed the reanimated shark several times over to the point that it's a dead reanimated zombie Fonzie jumped megladon shark. But WHY is dino world the step too far? That comment keeps confusing me, considering I believe the upcoming highly anticipated episode is way too far but then I thought the cartoonish episode in S8 was way too far as well. I know others love that sort of thing, and it's ok sometimes, but I didn't appreciate it on this show. I also thought Changing Channels was too far at the time but now it's one of my fav episodes. Can't say the same about the other though.

 

You're right, t's not a step too far, per se. BuckLeming have done plenty of ridiculous things these past few years (Possessed POTUS is still #1 on my bullshit list). But it needs to be called out every time that happens, and I really don't want the other writers to pull the same crap, because the show doesn't need that stuff and the best stories it tells are ones that are grounded in my opinion (in the context of its universe, obviously).

Up until season 12, those things called meta episodes existed. Dabb forgot about them when he took over. They used to make SPN special because they could separate the insane stuff and present it in a way that made the viewer know it wasn't meant to be taken seriously. Where are the French Mistake and Changing Channel nowadays ? Nowhere, they've been integrated into the main plot. The events are still crazy stupid, but now the writers want us to take all of that stuff seriously.

"Lucifer inseminating a lady through the president" would never even have made it into a meta ep five years ago. Too ridiculous. Now it's almost normal, almost expected. There was a time when I could take the show seriously and I'd really like to come back to that.

[catrox14]

47 minutes ago, Katy M said:

How would Castiel blasting Raphael away with a sidgil have even been an option when the whole point was that Cas wanted to question him. They actually lured him there.

The salt thing didn't destroy Raphael, just his meat suit.  But, anyway, the blasting sigil doesn't actually destroy anything, it just sends it away, so I'm not sure why you are comparing the two.

He wanted to question Raphael but he also left him in holy fire. He could have just sent him to wherever he wanted after he questioned him. OH right on the salt thing sorry. I forgot it was Cas by the power of all the souls that killed Raphael. My mistake.

 If they could blast away Gabriel, Michael, and Lucifer to save themselves for a hot minute, why wouldn't they have done that in all the years they had to deal with the archangels? Sure they would keep coming back but it would still given them time to escape. Heck they could just put them on perpetual blast if it didn't take all their blood to do it. LOL. 

Since it takes an archangel blade to kill an archangel and it takes the power of souls to kill an archangel like with Raphael. it should take something more powerful than the standard angel banishing sigil to work on archangels. Like with Rowena, she could blast him to the ocean but she had to paint the sigil on him and that weakened his vessel and she used a spell and she's a witch.

If they found a super secret archangel banishing sigil in s11 they didn't say that is what it was and that would be an important change in lore. They could have used the sigil to banish Lucifer in the Rock Star episode to get the people out of the venue but they didn't. And IMO that's because it doesn't work on archangels. So for me it worked on Cas because Cas is his own vessel and it took him and Lucifer to banishment land. 

Why the banishment didn't come up at all in this episode is mystifying. IMO if it's lore based then it's either because they were afraid of banishing Jack even though he wasn't banished in 13.01, or it doesn't work on an archangel. If the human side of him made it not work, then Sam/ they should have done it in this episode. So it's either sloppy writing or plot contrivance. It's not consistent either way.

I am convinced that the standard angel-b-gone doesn't work on archangels. But we can agree to disagree :)

Edited December 10, 2017 by catrox14

[Res]

30 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

For me, it's because 1) I don't think they could ever pull off the special effects enough to not have it look cheesy, and 2) the show is about the supernatural, so ghosts, monsters, witches...that all works.  But traveling to some prehistoric planet where Dinosaurs still walk the earth just seems too whacked out for me.  I think Catrox made reference to "Land of the Lost" in one of her posts, and that's what it reminds me of.  I don't really want them going there.  If it were something Purgatoryesque, that I could live with.  Like anything else, too much is too much, and that includes alternate universes.  

I completely agree with you about AUs which is why I never wanted this whole storyline to begin with. In fact, I can't think of a single storyline of Dabb's that I've even wanted them to think about, not even once.

[DittyDotDot]

6 hours ago, catrox14 said:

He teleported out when he left the bunker in 13.06. He didn't knock out Sam, Dean and Cas then, he just threw them back away from him. And you could hear the sounds of his wings fluttering when he left. 

Ah, that's right, I was thinking he knocked them out like he did in the premiere, but he did teleport away, didn't he? 

4 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

I still don't get why angels are driving about in decrepit old cars and not transporting.  Is it because their wings are broken still?  They can't fix wings? 

Apparently they can't fix their wings, but can heal themselves in other ways. Don't ask me how that works, it probably could be explained in a series of quadratic equations I wouldn't understand, anyway. ;)

3 hours ago, Katy M said:

No, I think it works on archangels.  I don't know why it wouldn't. 

I'd guess it works on archangels too, but Micheal was able to disappear the sigils and holy oil back in The Song Remains The Same. So, I'd guess that might be why they didn't try it again on an archangel back in S5 and/or why they now make sure the angel is in close before they reveal the sigil. ::shrugs::

[Katy M]

Just now, DittyDotDot said:

I'd guess it works on archangels too, but Micheal was able to disappear the sigils and holy oil back in The Song Remains The Same. So, I'd guess that might be why they didn't try it again on an archangel back in S5 and/or why they now make sure the angel is in close before they reveal the sigil. ::shrugs::

I thought Anna and Uriel did that.  Michael didn't show up until after the fight.  Did he disappear the sigils, let Anna and Uriel do their thing and then pop up?  I suppose he could have.

[DittyDotDot]

4 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I thought Anna and Uriel did that.  Michael didn't show up until after the fight.  Did he disappear the sigils, let Anna and Uriel do their thing and then pop up?  I suppose he could have.

No, you're probably right that it was Anna and Uriel, that makes more sense. I was just remembering they were disappeared. Anyway, I think it still stands that the sigil is not a foolproof plan and with so many angels surrounding them, Dean was probably right that they wouldn't have survived that plan.

Edited December 10, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

Honestly there is no good excuse for angel banishing to not have at least been attempted in this episode. None whatsoever.

Like others have said, Anna blasted the angels from another room.  But let's say that wouldn't work, they could have lured them all into one room and blasted them away. Or got at least a couple of them. Jack could have opened a door and stood there doing his time stopping thing and made them all turn their blades on themselves like he did earlier in the episode LOL. He could thrown them off the bridge before they ever got to the room.   Even if they tried to throw an angel blade at him it wouldn't work as was shown in 13.01.

Just give me a dang reason why they didn't even try other than plot plot plot mcplot writing

[Bobcatkitten]

14 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Honestly there is no good excuse for angel banishing to not have at least been attempted in this episode. None whatsoever.

Like others have said, Anna blasted the angels from another room.  But let's say that wouldn't work, they could have lured them all into one room and blasted them away. Or got at least a couple of them. Jack could have opened a door and stood there doing his time stopping thing and made them all turn their blades on themselves like he did earlier in the episode LOL. He could thrown them off the bridge before they ever got to the room.   Even if they tried to throw an angel blade at him it wouldn't work as was shown in 13.01.

Just give me a dang reason why they didn't even try other than plot plot plot mcplot writing

This so much. They had options - use Jack's powers; banishing sigil; fight and kill with angel blades. They tried none because of the AU thing. It was sloppy.

 

As for me on dinosaurs being too much, it's less dinosaurs per se and more that I really don't want another AU. We already have one that has barely been used. It's just too much to focus on. 

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, scribe95 said:

This so much. They had options - use Jack's powers; banishing sigil; fight and kill with angel blades. They tried none because of the AU thing. It was sloppy.

They would have done that eventually anyway because they wanted to save Mary. it was the whole point of kidnapping Kaya.

[Bobcatkitten]

1 minute ago, Katy M said:

They would have done that eventually anyway because they wanted to save Mary. it was the whole point of kidnapping Kaya.

True. And going to the AU to save Mary makes sense - just rolled out differently, not being shoddy with characters and lore to get there. 

[catrox14]

19 minutes ago, Katy M said:

They would have done that eventually anyway because they wanted to save Mary. it was the whole point of kidnapping Kaya.

That's true and it's still bad storytelling to not have the show at least have the supposedly still best hunters in the world who know what to do about angels, just run from them. Just to get them into the AU. I hate that kind of writing.

Just have them talk about why banishing wouldn't work. Like it was possible to have that brief discussion.

Dean: Sam can't you banish them?
Sam:  Not through these iron walls (or something).
Dean: Jack, can't you whammy them out of the room?
Jack: I can't Dean. I only have enough power to guide Kaia to the other world.
Dean: "Son of a bitch. Okay, just do it now them Jack!. 

See problem solved. We can debate if that was logical but at least the show would have shown the boys aren't just freaking out and doing nothing. Bah.

[DittyDotDot]

14 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Just have them talk about why banishing wouldn't work. Like it was possible to have that brief discussion.

They did discuss it. Sam suggested luring the angels in and using the banishing sigil; Dean said there were too many angels and if the angels got in, they would be dead.

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

They did discuss it. Sam suggested luring the angels in and using the banishing sigil; Dean said there were too many angels and if the angels got in, they would be dead.

And that is not a sufficient explanation. Which I think was mentioned before. Especially for hunters who have faced worse odds than that. Especially coming from Dean who has taken on and defeated 2 to 4 angels and demons himself at a time. And they still have a damn half archangel there who has powers.  They just gave up because "too many". What were they all joined at the hip and they couldn't at least blast one or two?  If they considered letting them in, they didn't have to let them ALL in. They could have let in a couple, Jack slams the door and they banish at least a couple of them. Shunted them into some other area.

Nah, sorry, crappy writing to get to them where they wanted them to be. IMO, YMMV.

Edited December 11, 2017 by catrox14

[catrox14]

So on another point, remember when Sam mentioned about gorgon tooth in the Scorpion and the Frog? I think that is foreshadowing what's in the Bad Place. I think they are going to face mythological creatures like gorgons and giants etc.  vs DinoGorgon...but then again, maybe not. LOL

Spoiler

Especially given the promo that shows the boys tied up to trees. Unless Dinosaurs have developed the ability to capture humans I don't think it will be dinosaurs.

Edited December 11, 2017 by catrox14

[MysteryGuest]

Well, this isn't the first time they've ignored the obvious for the sake of the plot.  Whether by making the boys look hapless and incompetent, or having spells/powers work or not work, depending on the circumstance.  It's the easiest way to get from point A to point B, and these writers love a shortcut.  It's one of my biggest beefs when watching not just this show, but most shows/movies.  When they have the characters do something implausible, it  normally takes me right out of the story.  I've pretty much gotten used to it on SPN, because it's so commonplace.  My ability to finally gloss over some of this stuff has definitely improved my viewing experience this season.  

[sarthaz]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Nah, sorry, crappy writing to get to them where they wanted them to be. IMO, YMMV.

Yeah, I'm OK with all the points, but the way they wrote them from point to point was just lazy.  Honestly, you could have had the same result without the stupid angel brigade.  Jack shows Kaia what's possible, she agrees to help, Jack can't pinpoint the right AU, Dean says "go for it anyway", and they get split up.  The whole angel chase was so hollow and laughable as our heroes conveniently forgot all they've learned about fighting dickbags.