S13.E09: The Bad Place

[Jediknight]

12 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

What are Lovecraftian gods? Can you give us some examples? That sounds better than dinosaurs LOL

Cthulhu is the biggest one.  They're ancient powerful gods, and mankind is completely insignificant to them.

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I'm still going to wait and see what Jody, Claire and Alex's reactions to all this is. Yes, Dean did a bad thing here - absolutely 100%. But there are also absolutely extenuating circumstances, and Jody - at least the Jody we've known since S5 - understands this. As do Claire and Alex, who have both seen the brothers do things in the name of saving people, and have forgiven (as well as been forgiven). So if the WS writers take the tack that Dean is some horrible misogynist child abuser who should be shunned and/or punished, then screw them. They will turn me off their show, just as surely as what Dean did will turn some off of SPN. And if they rewrite the history they just wrote, and give Sam and Jack no responsibility for what happened, screw them harder, with a rusty pipe.

There are extenuating circumstances.  And I too,  I'm waiting to see what they do about Dean's actions. I just don't have much hope given how they've been putting Dean into an 'abuser' box all season. It's shitty.  I don't trust Dabb at all now. I hope I am wrong and I will eat all your hats. 

I think they will not give Sam and Jack any responsibility because they are not responsible for Dean's behavior. I'm not being bitter about it either. Jack convinced her to come with him, he thought they had a deal. She said they didn't. She clocks Jack and takes off.  He never retaliates but eventually tells her she can be good too. They both can. Yeah Team Good Powers Teens!

Sam isn't being mean. Sam is throwing Dean side eyes and he's trying to convince her when Dean flips out and literally shoves the gun in her face. Sam and Jack are going to get off scot free on this and it will be because Dean takes all the heat. And that will be praised as "In character for Dean and that he blames himself for everything everyone else does".  I can see it now, because it's happened so many times before. And Dean does owe the apology no doubt.

7 minutes ago, Jediknight said:

Cthulhu is the biggest one.  They're ancient powerful gods, and mankind is completely insignificant to them.

Oh man would they really do Cthulhu? Hasn't that been a running joke in the show?  Or am I thinking of chupacabra? I think you are on to something there reading up on it now that you've mentioned it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cthulhu

[TexasGal]

53 minutes ago, Jediknight said:

That ain't a dinosaur.  Something tells me they're going to be introducing Lovecraftian type gods.  They need to introduce something that Jack wouldn't just stomp into the ground in 3 seconds, and bringing in those type of gods would be right up the alley.  It's why Billie wants the Wichesters alive, they, Castiel, Jody, Donna, the Wayward Daughters, and Jack working together stand the best chance of stopping them from taking over this and countless other dimensions.

 

Ok, that would be cool.  Especially since didn't Lovecraft appear at some point?  Of course, that's probably an argument for it NOT being that because it could bring a story full circle.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

17 minutes ago, Jediknight said:

Cthulhu is the biggest one.  They're ancient powerful gods, and mankind is completely insignificant to them.

I think that would be really cool.  And yes, even better than dinosaurs.  Much more 'supernatural-ish'. 

Although...I think dinosaurs would be fun too.  :)

[ILoveReading]

14 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Sam and Jack are going to get off scot free on this and it will be because Dean takes all the heat.

Responding in Bitch/Jerk just to be sure.

[devlin123]

I am finding Dean absolutely riveting to watch. He is telling a complex psychological human story. I personally find his story much more interesting and engaging rather than any of the supernatural story lines or the special boys with their special powers. Thankfully JA is a subtle enough actor to portray the inner workings of his mind and in that scene with him pulling a gun on the girl, you can actually feel his desperation and panic. I also appreciate the fact that they don't shy away from showing Dean behaving like an asshole but if you have been following the this show in its entirety you know that its OOC for him and should be clear that he is in a terrible state. It is showing that he is very human! That said I don't really care if its going to make other viewers see him as an asshole coz I don't watch for them.

[gonzosgirrl]

25 minutes ago, devlin123 said:

I am finding Dean absolutely riveting to watch. He is telling a complex psychological human story. I personally find his story much more interesting and engaging rather than any of the supernatural story lines or the special boys with their special powers. Thankfully JA is a subtle enough actor to portray the inner workings of his mind and in that scene with him pulling a gun on the girl, you can actually feel his desperation and panic. I also appreciate the fact that they don't shy away from showing Dean behaving like an asshole but if you have been following the this show in its entirety you know that its OOC for him and should be clear that he is in a terrible state. It is showing that he is very human! That said I don't really care if its going to make other viewers see him as an asshole coz I don't watch for them.

Love this. And agree so much, particularly the bolded.

More to say, but maybe Unpopular Opinions is the place for it.

[catrox14]

38 minutes ago, devlin123 said:

I am finding Dean absolutely riveting to watch. He is telling a complex psychological human story. I personally find his story much more interesting and engaging rather than any of the supernatural story lines or the special boys with their special powers. Thankfully JA is a subtle enough actor to portray the inner workings of his mind and in that scene with him pulling a gun on the girl, you can actually feel his desperation and panic. I also appreciate the fact that they don't shy away from showing Dean behaving like an asshole but if you have been following the this show in its entirety you know that its OOC for him and should be clear that he is in a terrible state. It is showing that he is very human! That said I don't really care if its going to make other viewers see him as an asshole coz I don't watch for them.

I agree with all of this. I don't care how other people see Dean but I am a Dean fan as if no one knows that already LOL. But this was not IMO well set up narratively in this episode. There was no good reason why Dean got that desperate that quickly. That's the problem I have with it.

Dean was the monster in this episode really because of that moment.

Like honestly, I would have preferred if Dean was gonna do this that he just put the gun to her head as soon as they found her. Instead they waited until it became super creepy with "Teen girl refuses to get in a car with 3 men she doesn't know and then one pulls the gun on her".  That's a pretty creepy vibe in and of itself.

Honestly why didn't they just do it in the parking lot? I don't understand why they were waiting to do anything and thus ending up in that ship.  Maybe I missed something

Edited December 8, 2017 by catrox14

[Pondlass1]

Thank you @devlin123 great post!   Jensen is providing us a glimpse inside Dean's absolute desperation.   Dean is often wrong and yes he's an asshole sometimes, but Dean will never be predictable... He's way too cool. 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

But this was not IMO well set up narratively in this episode. There was no good reason why Dean got that desperate that quickly. 

I agree. I was like: when did that happen? Where was I? And it wasn`t a fault of the acting but the situation coming out of nowhere. An actor may do rage and/or panic really well but if they are peaceful one second and go off the next and I don`t have any context as to why, it will be a WTF moment. 

Yes, there was supposed to be context here with Jack`s vision of Mary and Dean feeling guilty and horrified she had been alive and was in danger bla bla. But even with all that, I found that excuse flimsy as hell for such a reaction. The character has been guilty, horrified and all that before and had people unwilling to help before and covering civilians, especially teenagers, still haven`t gotten the gun to head treatment before. That`d be like him shooting a waitress who didn`t bring him pie. I mean, it would be an explanation also but not a sufficient one.  

[bethy]

This episode made me realize how utterly uninvested I am in Mary Winchester. I mean I've been annoyed with the character and frustrated by her storylines, but seeing her in that cage was just a big ol' ball of nothing for me. I can't decide if it's the way the actress played it or the character itself, but man. If "Somebody help me" was meant to be a call back to Dean's same cry (and it probably was), I don't even know what to say. Because JA's cry was heart-rending. I barely got an emotional reading of the line from Sam Smith. I thought it was horribly, horribly acted, and, honestly, I hope Mary dies by the end of this season. Because I am so tired of what has become for me a black hole of boredom interacting with Dean and Sam. 

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I agree. I was like: when did that happen? Where was I? And it wasn`t a fault of the acting but the situation coming out of nowhere. An actor may do rage and/or panic really well but if they are peaceful one second and go off the next and I don`t have any context as to why, it will be a WTF moment. 

Yes, there was supposed to be context here with Jack`s vision of Mary and Dean feeling guilty and horrified she had been alive and was in danger bla bla. But even with all that, I found that excuse flimsy as hell for such a reaction. The character has been guilty, horrified and all that before and had people unwilling to help before and covering civilians, especially teenagers, still haven`t gotten the gun to head treatment before. That`d be like him shooting a waitress who didn`t bring him pie. I mean, it would be an explanation also but not a sufficient one.  

If Dean had been dealing with frustrstion over getting nowhere with Mary for like a day, I could have understood his rage. But he went from good job Jack to putting  a gun in this girl's face  after she told him her fears and upset. . Had he done that first without knowing her situation it would have made more sense.

Maybe Dean should have gotten drunk. LOL

[gonzosgirrl]

I was re-watching the end of the episode, when the camera is scanning the now-empty shipyard. Are these supposed to be burned out wings?

 

[Triskan]

I dont understand why people diss Patience's father, he clearly is just a concerned parent trying to reach his daughter, in vain, completely lost.

He's quite the tragic character imo more than anything else.

And loved Kaia, she'll be a great WS ! 

 

But just please... please CW, dont give us dinosaurs, you dont have the budget to pull it off... even though I dont think it's dinosaurs, the big skull we saw didnt look very reptilian to me, so probably another kind of monster, but I'm damn sure whatever the design, the CW cant pull of something that massive with any credibility...

Edited December 9, 2017 by Triskan

[Casseiopeia]

57 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I was re-watching the end of the episode, when the camera is scanning the now-empty shipyard. Are these supposed to be burned out wings?

 

Yes

[catrox14]

I was thinking about Kaia's dad. I think maybe he was saying "You won't come back" vs "Don't come back" like John did with Sam.

It's a more of IMO his fear which John was afraid for Sam but he couldn't say it. Instead it was "how dare you leave us". 

14 minutes ago, Triskan said:

I dont understand why people diss Patience's father, he clearly is just a concerned parent trying to reach his daughter, in vain, completely lost.

[MysteryGuest]

I have to watch the episode again tomorrow, but I'm not convinced that Dean's pulling the gun on Kaia is going to have any lasting repercussions.  If Kaia hooks up with Jody and Co., the drama is going to be all about what happened to Sam, Dean and Jack, and not about the fact that Dean threatened her with a gun.  I think that was done entirely to show us just how far off the rails Dean is now that he knows Mary is alive and being tortured.  All these weeks he's been insisting to everyone that she's dead, and the entire time she's been suffering instead.  That's enough to push our boy right over the edge.  

[gonzosgirrl]

32 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I was thinking about Kaia's dad. I think maybe he was saying "You won't come back" vs "Don't come back" like John did with Sam.

It's a more of IMO his fear which John was afraid for Sam but he couldn't say it. Instead it was "how dare you leave us". 

I don't think so. Maybe if he'd said 'you won't come back', but he said 'you don't come back'. I totally took it as an ultimatum.

[ILoveReading]

38 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I have to watch the episode again tomorrow, but I'm not convinced that Dean's pulling the gun on Kaia is going to have any lasting repercussions.  If Kaia hooks up with Jody and Co., the drama is going to be all about what happened to Sam, Dean and Jack, and not about the fact that Dean threatened her with a gun.  I think that was done entirely to show us just how far off the rails Dean is now that he knows Mary is alive and being tortured.  All these weeks he's been insisting to everyone that she's dead, and the entire time she's been suffering instead.  That's enough to push our boy right over the edge.  

I feel like they're will be repercussions because now if anything gets through the rift it will Dean fault because he was the one who opened it in the first place.  Billie said a big dumb Winchester was going to bring down the house of cards.  I guess we know what she was talking about now .

Wayward sisters is said to be

Spoiler

a hell mouth situation.   I'm guessing this will be because the rift won't be able to be sealed completely, for...reasons.

Edited December 9, 2017 by ILoveReading

[MysteryGuest]

12 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I feel like they're will be repercussions because now if anything gets through the rift it will Dean fault because he was the one who opened it in the first place.  Billie said a big dumb Winchester was going to bring down the house of cards.  I guess we know what she was talking about now .

Dean wasn't the only one wanting the rift open.  Sam's been beating that drum since episode one.  And they both reiterated this episode that they would save Mary "no matter what".  This is not on Dean alone, but the fact that the Winchesters broke the world again is hardly newsworthy on this show.

[ILoveReading]

4 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Dean wasn't the only one wanting the rift open.  Sam's been beating that drum since episode one.  And they both reiterated this episode that they would save Mary "no matter what".  This is not on Dean alone, but the fact that the Winchesters broke the world again is hardly newsworthy on this show.

No matter how many times Sam might have wanted to he never acted on it.  It was Dean who forced Kaia to do it at gunpoint, so the aftermath is on Dean, unfortunately.

At 13 seasons character growth is a good thing. 

[bethy]

21 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

It was Dean who forced Kaia to do it at gunpoint, so the aftermath is on Dean, unfortunately.

But Dean didn't actually force her to open the rift at gunpoint. I mean, yes, he forced her in the car, but by the time she opened the rift he'd apologized and she did it willingly at Jack's request. 

[MysteryGuest]

3 minutes ago, bethy said:

But Dean didn't actually force her to open the rift at gunpoint. I mean, yes, he forced her in the car, but by the time she opened the rift he'd apologized and she did it willingly at Jack's request. 

Exactly.  I think Kaia was over her trauma of being taken at gunpoint as soon as Jack showed her his vision.  She may not have wanted to go to the bad place, but she did it willingly.  

 

28 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

No matter how many times Sam might have wanted to he never acted on it.  It was Dean who forced Kaia to do it at gunpoint, so the aftermath is on Dean, unfortunately.

I know that we seem to keep score on this board as to who's to blame for each crisis, but I'm not sure it's really a thing anywhere else.  Bringing the world to the edge of destruction is pretty much what Sam, Dean, Cas...and now Jack, do.  That free will has consequences, don't you know?  Exactly who is it that's going to "blame" Dean?  

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't think so. Maybe if he'd said 'you won't come back', but he said 'you don't come back'. I totally took it as an ultimatum.

Sorry I meant to type "You don't come back".  I still take it as more of him believing she won't come back, vs telling her to not come back. Like he believes it is a foregone conclusion because of his life experience. 

[gonzosgirrl]

12 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Sorry I meant to type "You don't come back".  I still take it as more of him believing she won't come back, vs telling her to not come back. Like he believes it is a foregone conclusion because of his life experience. 

He already cut his mother out of his life over her choice. Sending his daughter on her way with those last words leads me to believe he's doing the same thing again. Why would he not say 'I'm afraid you won't come back' or 'what if you don't come back' if that's what he meant? Saying 'you don't come back' to her back as she's walking away and leaving it there just doesn't leave me room to interpret it that way.

[catrox14]

As is my wont, I'm all into what Dean wears as being signposts of his story lines to an extent. And to that end I was really struck by his clothing here. I was really distracted by how much his jacket reminded me of the jacket he wore in Lazarus Rising.

In 13.09 he wore a dark brown or black jacket with two front pockets(which was a bit big in his shoulders vs the more slim fit, jet black, shorter waist jacket he wore in 13.08). It's paired with brown and blue plaid button down over a black t-shirt.

In Lazurus Rising Dean wore a chocolate brown corduroy jacket slightly big for him (might have been Sam's) a light brown plaid button down over a green t shirt.

I thought these looks were so similar I kept thinking it was the same jacket as Lazurus Rising but it's not. But it certainly evoked MY memories of Lazarus Rising.

Now, if my notions that Dean's wardrobe matters to Dean's story or foreshadowing things for him, I'm speculating that we might actually get a legitimate meaningful revisit to Dean's Hell time especially given the flashbacks to 3.16 and 4.01. And if they give it any king of meaningful looksee,  I'll be more forgiving of the writing of Dean in this episode. 

Just my obsessed brain working overtime here LOL

9 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

He already cut his mother out of his life over her choice. Sending his daughter on her way with those last words leads me to believe he's doing the same thing again. Why would he not say 'I'm afraid you won't come back' or 'what if you don't come back' if that's what he meant? Saying 'you don't come back' to her back as she's walking away and leaving it there just doesn't leave me room to interpret it that way.

Because I didn't see any real animosity towards her there. I saw a man who couldn't admit that he was worried for her vs controlling her. Just how I saw it. Because I was very much seeing the John parallels but this just seemed less hostile. More sad and almost pleading.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said:

Dean wasn't the only one wanting the rift open.  Sam's been beating that drum since episode one.  And they both reiterated this episode that they would save Mary "no matter what".  This is not on Dean alone, but the fact that the Winchesters broke the world again is hardly newsworthy on this show.

Sam was beating the drum but he also backed off on that quite a bit once he become kind of scurred of Jack's powers and even thought maybe Dean was right about Mary. He even said in this episode that they would find some other way. He didn't push Kaia.

41 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Exactly.  I think Kaia was over her trauma of being taken at gunpoint as soon as Jack showed her his vision.  She may not have wanted to go to the bad place, but she did it willingly.  

 

I know that we seem to keep score on this board as to who's to blame for each crisis, but I'm not sure it's really a thing anywhere else.  Bringing the world to the edge of destruction is pretty much what Sam, Dean, Cas...and now Jack, do.  That free will has consequences, don't you know?  Exactly who is it that's going to "blame" Dean?  

FWIW, the scorekeeping exists on other places like Twitter, Tumblr and comments sections of legitimate outlets like Entertainment Weekly. So yeah it's not just us :) Not that it makes you feel better but it does exist outside of this community.

As for who will do the blaming...Billie for starters. She's already put Dean on the hotseat about NOT bringing down the house of cards that she warned him about in Advanced Thantology.

Edited December 9, 2017 by catrox14

[catrox14]

As always Tippi TV FTW  LOLOLOLOLLLLL

 

Quote

http://tippitv.tumblr.com/post/168345078942/maybe-its-not-a-dinosaur

December 8th 2017, 8:02:47 pm · 5 minutes ago

Maybe it’s NOT a dinosaur

Much speculation has been made that this was left behind by a dinosaur:

But what if it’s not a dinosaur? What if it’s not a footprint at all?

It could be the imprint of a very large banana:

 

Or a terrifyingly huge ear of corn:

A friendly, enormous octopus:

Or even maybe a giant Gumby, trying to be sexy:

The possibilities are, if not endless, then certainly vast.

 

 

[MysteryGuest]

Billie may have warned Dean about their destructive tendencies, but she also sent him back knowing full well they would ultimately do exactly what they've done.  She sent them out with absolutely no clue as to what their "mission" was, so if they fuck it up again, she's as much to blame as they are.

[catrox14]

I will say for my gripes about the episode, the cinematography was well...cinematic. Those drone cameras must be making them so happy!

For your enjoyment (thanks tumblr people)

Edited December 9, 2017 by catrox14

[catrox14]

ETA: Jensen still has wheelz man. Look at him run!

14 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Billie may have warned Dean about their destructive tendencies, but she also sent him back knowing full well they would ultimately do exactly what they've done.  She sent them out with absolutely no clue as to what their "mission" was, so if they fuck it up again, she's as much to blame as they are.

Whether she accepts blame, she has a case that Dean did what she said was the problem. He pushed to open the rift to another world despite her admonishments to not do it. Dean pushed Kaia to do this action. Not Billie.

[catrox14]

@ahrtee  Heee

Someone after your own heart

Quote

tippitv

December 8th 2017, 7:30:34 pm · an hour ago

tbh except for the footprint, this place didn’t look that different from their old neighborhood…

#spn crack #supernatural #the lush coastal rain forest of Kansas

[MysteryGuest]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Whether she accepts blame, she has a case that Dean did what she said was the problem. He pushed to open the rift to another world despite her admonishments to not do it. Dean pushed Kaia to do this action. Not Billie.

I guess I've grown immune to the end-of-world crises.  I simply couldn't care less who does what because that's what this show is all about.  If people are keeping score elsewhere, then my guess is it's for the same reason we do it here...brother against brother competition with some Cas bashing thrown in for good measure.  At least in the Supernatural world, God himself still chose Sam and Dean to guard mankind, so he must have determined they were worth the risk, even with their reckless decision making.  Billie did the same thing.  I'm not convinced we're supposed to be keeping score, considering both brothers and Cas have made questionable decisions throughout the series.  I know it's a fun discussion for some, and I've certainly joined in myself, but sometimes it just wears me out.

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I guess I've grown immune to the end-of-world crises.  I simply couldn't care less who does what because that's what this show is all about.  If people are keeping score elsewhere, then my guess is it's for the same reason we do it here...brother against brother competition with some Cas bashing thrown in for good measure.  At least in the Supernatural world, God himself still chose Sam and Dean to guard mankind, so he must have determined they were worth the risk, even with their reckless decision making.  Billie did the same thing.  I'm not convinced we're supposed to be keeping score, considering both brothers and Cas have made questionable decisions throughout the series.  I know it's a fun discussion for some, and I've certainly joined in myself, but sometimes it just wears me out.

 IMO, the narrative will do that for us with whatever is the particular storyline happening. And since the writers actually do it themselves per Davy Perez, fans will do it too.  It's the nature of this beast I think when you have characters who are different and have been at odds and who the writers kind of pit against each other from time to time. 

[BoxManLocke]

13 hours ago, bethy said:

This episode made me realize how utterly uninvested I am in Mary Winchester. I mean I've been annoyed with the character and frustrated by her storylines, but seeing her in that cage was just a big ol' ball of nothing for me. I can't decide if it's the way the actress played it or the character itself, but man. If "Somebody help me" was meant to be a call back to Dean's same cry (and it probably was), I don't even know what to say. Because JA's cry was heart-rending. I barely got an emotional reading of the line from Sam Smith. I thought it was horribly, horribly acted, and, honestly, I hope Mary dies by the end of this season. Because I am so tired of what has become for me a black hole of boredom interacting with Dean and Sam. 

The show is doing its damnedest to give us zero reason to care about Mary, so I think it's entirely unfair to take a practically contextless five seconds scene as proof that the character is not worth keeping.

We're 9 episodes in and they've given Sam Smith nothing to work with. She got five minutes with Lucifer, some pervy rando and that's it. Add to that last season where she got an extreme version of the Castiel treatment : Long stretches of abscence, questionable decisions and lack of POV.

I'm invested in the search for Mary, but that's only in the hope they end up putting the character where it works : next to Sam and Dean.

Castiel is given the chance to start over every single season after being fucked by the writers and adding very little value outside of his 2-3 episodes with J², so I wish people would cut Mary some slack considering how important the character could be. And it's really not like she's taking a lot screentime this season.

Edited December 9, 2017 by BoxManLocke

[Aeryn13]

Quote

We're 9 episodes in and they've given Sam Smith nothing to work with. 

She did get quite a bit last Season and I wasn`t impressed with the acting then, it made things worse for me. This episode, it really was a blink-and-you-,miss-it moment but unfortunately because they made it a callback to an earlier much more impactful and iconic moment, I feel like it should have been weightier than it was. Acting-wise, I thought the line fell flat which would normally not be a big deal - lots of single lines fall flat here and there - but unfortunately it is when one line is all an actor gets. 

They probably didn`t want to work on this one blip more than they needed to, considering the emphasis in the episode was on the reaction TO that reveal by Jack. But personally I think it would have benefitted from pushing for a better line reading.   

[bethy]

43 minutes ago, BoxManLocke said:

The show is doing its damnedest to give us zero reason to care about Mary, so I think it's entirely unfair to take a practically contextless five seconds scene as proof that the character is not worth keeping.

Mary/Sam Smith was on the show a lot last season, and as I noted, I've had other issues with the character before that scene, so my own conclusion isn't based on just five seconds. That scene and that line reading simply crystallized for me that Mary is a character I have no emotional investment in and that, frankly, detracts from any scene she's in.

[SueB]

On Dinoland: If there are alternate universes, one of the popular theories is that it stems from critical moments in the history of the universe. So, maybe a meteor DIDN’T hit Dinoland and they survived.  Works for me.  They aren’t in every AU because there is a lot of natural reasons why they wouldn’t make it.   

 

But, that’s no ordinary Dino print.   That’s Godzilla class.  So... maybe Dino descendants.  But since Jensen LOVES to spoil, I’m going with Dino-like is the answer.  

[Katy M]

Oh, I hope it's a terrifyingly huge ear of corn.  I don't think we've had a veggie based monster on the show.

[bethy]

As an aside, every time I read "The Bad Place" I think about The Good Place. 

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, BoxManLocke said:

The show is doing its damnedest to give us zero reason to care about Mary, so I think it's entirely unfair to take a practically contextless five seconds scene as proof that the character is not worth keeping.

I read the comment as being the final straw with an ongoing issue with the character not just that particular moment.

10 hours ago, bethy said:

But Dean didn't actually force her to open the rift at gunpoint. I mean, yes, he forced her in the car, but by the time she opened the rift he'd apologized and she did it willingly at Jack's request. 

It played out that the  only reason she got in the car was because she was afraid of Dean. I mean whether she was or wasn't, Dean putting the gun in her face and screaming at her to get in the car is followed by her getting into the car. Without that, Kaia wouldn't have been in the car for Jack to show her something that got her to cooperate.

For me everything between Kaia, Jack, Dean and Sam was really poorly written and badly plotted and both Dean and Sam suffered for it.

I didn't pick up on this the first time I watched the episode. And this just makes the whole thing with Dean and Kaia SO MUCH WORSE. .

Kaia said to the angel who kidnapped her " I'm not rich, white or blonde.  No one's gonna fight for me.  I don't matter".  Berens wrote  Kaia's POV that her being a person of color makes her less visible and that no one cares about her, which is a valid POV for her and valid issue to address.  And it's followed by 3 white guys, Jack, Sam and Dean showing up to find her. But they aren't really there to fight FOR her as it turns out. They found her so they could use her powers, not even to save the world. It's so they can save Mary. It's personal. And it put Dean, and Sam, right back to putting family over everything else, which I thought was being shown was a bad thing for Dean and Sam to be doing. Billie flat out tells Dean that walking between worlds is not something they should be doing and boom here it is. Big dumb Winchesters. Ugh.

Even though Kaia was in jeopardy it can be argued that Jack wanting to use her powers to help Dean and Sam find Mary that put her in jeopardy in the first place and made her a target for the angels. Jack was becoming increasingly aggressive with Kaia himself. He grabbed her arm and demanded he help her. Saying "YOU WILL HELP ME". But he also backed off from that.  That whole thing is punctuated by Dean, a 40 year old white guy putting a gun in her face to make her do what the 3 white guys want her to do. JFC Berens. 

WRT to Kaia's cooperation, there is no way of knowing if Kaia really saw something that made her change her mind entirely of her own free will or  if Jack mind whammied her into helping. Just like with Cas in the playground. And for me there is still not enough information that tells either way. Then we have Dean's flip out. He's become tunnel vision on saving Mary, no matter what. And repeats that line like 3 times. He's doesn't have to repeat himself here. And he's aggressive and frightening and terrorizing Kaia. Makes me think Jack mind whammied Dean into being this hyperfocused rage machine so he can get into the AU. And Sam was so fucking passive here. And that passivity happened after Jack showed him Mary. Did he mind whammy Sammy into being totally passive because why wouldn't Sam have been much more vocal towards Dean in that situation? Like sure Sam was shocked but Sam has never had any compunction with stopping Dean from brandishing a gun. Like he did when Dean aimed it at Jack.

So why the hell did Berens write it that Dean had to put the gun to Kaia's head when it turns out that Jack only had to touch her head and show her something that got her to help "willingly". That could have happened in the parking lot long before Dean put a gun in her face.

This feels like Berens is writing this to prove his own premise that the women will save the show from itself by making sure Dean is the worst, most violent male in the show.

[MysteryGuest]

6 hours ago, Proteus said:

Do you live in New York? The CW hasn't worked well in NY for years.

Yes, Western New York.  I normally don't have an issue, but this week was awful.  It definitely detracted from my enjoyment the show.  It became more of an endurance test to see if I could make it through, and it had nothing to do with the actual episode.  I'm going to watch it again shortly, and I'm looking forward to actually not having to strain to hear the characters voices and drown out the static.

[Pondlass1]

16 hours ago, bethy said:

but seeing her in that cage was just a big ol' ball of nothing for me.

Well, I did find myself wondering how she'd defecate and urinate in that Iron Maiden - that was about the extent of my investment in the scene.

13 hours ago, Triskan said:

I dont understand why people diss Patience's father, he clearly is just a concerned parent trying to reach his daughter, in vain, completely lost.

He's quite the tragic character imo more than anything else.

The father was a plot device intended to appeal to teenage female viewers, who will hopefully watch the spin off. 

9 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I guess I've grown immune to the end-of-world crises.

 Me too. At least one apocalypse per night on my TV these days. ::sigh::

10 hours ago, catrox14 said:

ensen still has wheelz man. Look at him run!

It's them extra long bendy legs of his.

10 hours ago, catrox14 said:

what Dean wears as being signposts of his story lines

Yeah, like the dark red 'murder' shirt.  Everyone better watch out when he puts that on.

7 hours ago, Proteus said:

The CW hasn't worked well in NY for years.

I'm in Canada and can watch on our SPACE channel, thank goodness.  Not only would I have to pay extra for the CW network, it's always so damned dark. Hope Supernatural continues to air on SPACE.

I really enjoyed the episode.  I'm liking this season much better than BMOL season.  I'm also becoming attached to Jack and now kinda hoping he don't go bad on me.  I wish they'd explain how he's supposed to be able to 'make new angels'?  Lots of angel sex or something?   It's the angels own fault, they're always down on earth stabbing each other.  And no way we will see dinosaurs.  Maybe a blurred flying dragon in the distance?

I'm surviving the hiatus watching seasons 1 & 2 on Netflix.  It ain't the same, tho, knowing what I know now.

30 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Dean putting the gun in her face and screaming

Dean will be apologising for the next ten episodes. LOL

[DittyDotDot]

2 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

The father was a plot device intended to appeal to teenage female viewers, who will hopefully watch the spin off. 

Heh, I felt like he was there to establish Patience as Sam--if you leave, don't come back. BTW, I think Kaia is supposed to be Dean... .

[ILoveReading]

I just find it sad that the Winchester's legacy will be villains and the worlds biggest threat rather than ending the show as heroes.

[Ria]

1 minute ago, ILoveReading said:

I just find it sad that the Winchester's legacy will be villains and the worlds biggest threat rather than ending the show as heroes.

Unfortunately saving family over threats to everybody else has been their priority for several seasons now. 

[ILoveReading]

Just now, Ria said:

Unfortunately saving family over threats to everybody else has been their priority for several seasons now. 

It soundn't be.  Character growth should be a factor.  Starting a 3rd apocalypse isn't something the writers should be putting on the Winchester's shoulders

[catrox14]

16 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

Dean will be apologising for the next ten episodes. LOL

I hope Berens set up something for Dean to deal with his Hell time, but I dunno. I don't have much hope TBH. If that doesn't happen the best I can hope for is that it's a plot point for Berens WS to build sympathy for Kaia and will be addressed by Jody as "that's not how Dean would be" or something.

Like I don't know if it will be better or worse for them to address or leave it as some one off action..but ugh.

[Pondlass1]

Well, it didn't bother me like it did most others.  Dean had just been informed his mother was still alive and being tortured.  That he'd been wrong all this time and probably damning himself for not being a believer like his brother.  His expressions leading up to pulling the gun on her were dark and pretty terrifying.  Dean is human.  He makes mistakes.  His emotions overtake and he gets scary.  We've seen it before. Usually he punches a wall or Sam or something.

We all know there's no way in hell he would've harmed her.  I actually think fingers should be pointed at Brother Sam who I would've thought would move to stand in front of her.

However, I do agree there was no need for the scene at all.  It's caused a bit of a ruckus online.  She could have just reluctantly gone with.  But still, we got some dark acting from Jensen.  I mean, who'd cross this guy?  I wouldn't.

[catrox14]

19 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Heh, I felt like he was there to establish Patience as Sam--if you leave, don't come back. BTW, I think Kaia is supposed to be Dean... .

I thought Claire was already the Dean in the group