S13.E05: Advanced Thanatology

[Myrelle]

5 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I can't say enough about Jensen's performance. I was cringing with each word that he said in his conversation with her, because I believed every one of them. I love that when he was so empty (The real Big Empty, IMO) that he didn't matter, he still thought about the ghosts trapped - and that's all he asked for. *sob*

And this right here - I want to squeeze Yockey for this:

https://twitter.com/SleepyPanda76/status/928850698531364864

You just know that Dean would have asked Dr. Robert for those because he'd know that somewhere down the road, they'd be useful to him. I wish they'd shown that.

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

So that beautiful episode really happened? I wasn't dreaming?

I still laugh that Sam trying to cheer Dean up seems OOC to me. Ah well. Guess I was wrong about him being possesed by Jack. I appreciate it none the less.

Yockey impresses me. He treats all the characters with "respect" by which I mean he doesn't diminish one to give another a voice. They all feel fully realized  and important to the piece even if not the center of the story.

Cas wasnt on screen but his important was felt despite his absence because of his relationship to Dean.

ITA. And this one was So. Very. Needed. after that debacle of a "therapy session" in last week's episode. And just look at what Dean's takeaway from that nonsense was-"Sam just keeps trying to fix things and I'm just dragging him down." Yeah, that "tough love" that even the official SPN twitter site pointed out as the answer to his grief and depression worked wonders for Dean, didn't it? GRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

Wow, the first decent episode in a long while. We may have lost Glynn but so far we haven`t lost Yockey. And he delivered a much needed win for me.

Not everything was perfect but it was so much better than the last few episodes. The ghost story was actually pretty good and creepy.

I also liked Billie far more than in her previous appearances but it always followed the same spiel:  snarky remark and threats - helping anyway - snarky remark and threats. Now that she sees the bigger picture, she has a lot more gravitas. I really enjoyed her convo with Dean. Who wasn`t suicidal per se but accepting of death because of his wearyness. That seems to throw her for a loop.

Didn`t have that much of a problem with Dean "killing" himself as, at that point, he fully expected to come back and it was clearly done just to work the case. Was it a big, perhaps unnecessary risk? Maybe. But it was a clear distinction between that risk and how accepting he became once Billie entered the picture.

The reaper being all "Dean Winchester is in the veil" was awesome. It reminded me a bit of "Dean Winchester is saved". The brothers truly have become known players on the cosmic board.

Okay, so the gross eating and sleeping on the floor, snoring stuff was too OTT humor to me but the show has really done this for many years now and it is much easier to forgive in an otherwise good episode.

We also got a Deansel in distress moment, making that 5 for 5 this Season but in the context of this episode, at least it made sense. 

I liked the win with Cas being back. Having the scene like this, just musical montage, no word and simply staring at each other from the distance made it more impactful to me.

I liked Sam fine in this episode but I also found him to be completely different to the Sam in episodes 1-4 who pushed and pushed and pushed.

Overall, a much appreciated win from Yockey. Kudos, dude.       

Again, yes, to the first bolded statement. While not perfect for the reasons you and some others have pointed out in your post, the second half from the moment Dean plunged that syringe into his heart, was the win that the Dean fandom needed this season to give Dean's profound grief the gravitas it should rightly have been afforded by these writers and especially to do justice to the performance that Jensen has poured into it from the premiere on. I know that his grief arc will be over with the return of Cas and that this is not in any way, how real grief or depression of such magnitude works or functions, but on this fictional show, this IS how it works for Dean. He will likely now focus on Jack and keeping him on the straight and narrow and also likely how to try to find/look for Mary-whom he never really fully gave up on as dead, as we saw from the last question that he tried to get in before being sent back to the land of the living. Loved that, too. Huge thanks for expanding on that last bit from the previous week's episode, Mr. Yockey. HUGE! Thanks!!

As for the part about Sam, I saw this as very IC for Sam. He'd gotten what he wanted out of Dean in the previous episode, no matter to him what the means to that end was, and now he just wanted Dean to buck up again, as Dean usually does for him when he asks it of him after getting what he wants from him; and even though this time Sam was more demanding of what he wanted(help with Jack) after simply asking got him nowhere-and yes, likely exactly how John would have handled things back in the day. I really hope that this will be pointed out, but sadly, I feel like it has gone completely over the showrunners'/writers' heads as things such as this concerning the Dean character often do. Thank God for the Ackting that brings all of that home, though, through little scenes like the one in the bar with FauxAsmodeus when Dean admitted that he hated his father but yes, he couldn't help but look for approval from him when he was younger and perhaps even still. That Jensen can give all of this to us through such meager writing for his character will never cease to amaze me. He is such a great actor and the sole reason that I am still watching this show.

And what Sam was doing was obviously not working at all. That was a necessary show, too, IMO. But I'm sure that Dean appreciated the effort and would never hold anything that Sam did or said to him to achieve his end over Sam's head, even this time-at least not consciously, anyway. I think he is, after all, accustomed to it and it's possible that he might even recognize as a nurtured trait in Sam courtesy of dear old dad. And as I said, I'd love to see that picked up on through the narrative, but I'm pretty sure that it won't be as per my previously stated reasons. 

2 hours ago, Diane said:

What a beautiful episode.  The camera work was just amazing, it was shot so well

I am always hopeful of a decently written episode when Showalter directs. He has the same type of eye for beauty in his work that Kim Manners possessed, IMO. Not quite as skillful as Manners was(but then again, KM was incomparable as a director, IMO), but his work is still some of the best that this show has ever offered us, again IMO.

 

4 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

We all need a win once in a while, don't we?

Indeed. And this one ended in that much needed win for Dean. But it was the entire second half of this episode that was, in truth, the same type of a win for many of us in the Dean fandom, if this site and the others that I've visited this morning are anything to go by.

This one is being very well received from all segments of the fandom from all that I've read. Take note, SPN writers/showrunners.

Edited November 10, 2017 by Myrelle

[Jeddah]

14 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Also, head canon is that Cas said "Hello Dean" when he called him.

And then he said “I’ll just wait here then.” Maybe even sang the song from Fan Fiction. That’s my head canon.

[catrox14]

36 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I know it's giving way too much depth to a show that doesn't much earn the assumption any more, but part of me wonders if maybe Dean secretly hoped, even just a little, that by dying, he would meet a reaper and get an answer one way or the other about Mary's fate. In hindsight, I'm surprised that wasn't what he asked for in his deal with Billie. It's kind of crazy that he just happened to have Dr. Robert's kit-o-death in his back pocket. Which begs another question I will take to the All Episodes thread... 

I think with Dean, as per the norm, nothing is ever completely one dimensional underneath it all.  I think he was settled that Mary was dead which was not an irrational notion given who she was stuck in the AU with, the mass murdering actual Devil himself. I think he was so bereft that even Sam was not enough for him to carry on especially if he IMO wrongly believed he was weighing Sam down, which IMO was partly his own unnecessary guilt over not being able to save Mary and Cas combined with Sam guilt tripping him about Jack. 

One thing I found really interesting is that Dean thought that John and Bobby dying were acceptable costs of this life, but Mary and Cas dying were too much for him, which I'd like to understand more of why Yockey wrote that. What is that telling us about how Dean views John and Bobby vs Mary and Cas. 

I think part of Dean's depression was that he never really thought Cas could really die, especially since Cas had come back so many times before if he didn't come back when he prayed to Amuck and saw his burnt wings, that was truly the end. And he straight up missed Cas. Even when Sam and Dean were at odds in the past, he still had Cas

One thing that I did think about is whether Dean was hoping on some level that Mary was dead so she's not being tortured by Lucifer, given what he knows Lucifer can and WILL do to someone.  Maybe that's a fate Dean just can't allow himself to consider so her being dead is a better option.

Mostly though, I think it was Dean's typical improvisational thinking to get those kids out of the veil. He needed that win. Billie interrupted and IMO at that point, he was okay with having his FINAL death. The one thing that I'm surprised he didn't ask is if he'd be going to the Empty given her prior threats and concern for them messing up the universe. 

Additionally, I think to a degree Sam's  relentless pursuit of harnessing Jack and his powers was wearing on Dean. And as the initial devastating grief and depression began to subside he might start thinking strategically. But now that Billie knows dimensions can be hopped I suspect she won't want that rift opened again.

I wonder now if the divide between Dean and Sam will be that Dean will be like NO don't open the rift because the house of cosmic cards will fall per Billie and Sam is like NO we have to open the rift to Save Mom. I don't think Dean will be on board with opening the rift but he will be on board with helping Jack control his powers so that he doesn't accidentally open the Rift or that he can convince him to not do it. 

[auntvi]

I loved the scary MOTW, it was a reminder of early in the series. Everything about the opening was really well done. You could even tell which kid’s camera you were looking through. Also loved the Harry Potter-like scene of the reaper running through the vale, “Winchester in the vale!!!”  I like Billy & Dean’s scenes with her, she definitely toned down her attitude since she became Death and is seeing the big picture.

I’m disappointed  they didn’t show much of Sam’s reaction to Dean being temp dead, maybe he would have called someone, tried Chuck. Surely he would have been horrified and panicked when the antidote didn’t work. And you’d think Sam would be in Dean ‘s thoughts when he was considering staying dead, protecting Sammy being his prime directive. 

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, auntvi said:

And you’d think Sam would be in Dean ‘s thoughts when he was considering staying dead, protecting Sammy being his prime directive. 

Sam was in Dean's thoughts. Dean told Billie that he had come to believe that he was dragging Sam down. In 12.22, Dean had to let Sam go off to fight the BMoL and had to accept that Sam might not come back and he had to risk letting him go. So in a way Dean was acting on the Prime Directive only this time he believed his death was better for Sam than his life. I'd like to think Dean is progressing out of the prime directive now. That he won't make decisions like letting an angel possess Sam to save him. Those were not good for Dean. The Prime Directive is not good for Dean.

[Myrelle]

15 minutes ago, auntvi said:

And you’d think Sam would be in Dean ‘s thoughts when he was considering staying dead, protecting Sammy being his prime directive. 

He thought he was dragging Sam down. Those were his thoughts concerning Sam. As I said, that was what he took away from that therapy session-that he didn't matter to anything or anyone in the living world so what was the point in going back to it?

Edited November 10, 2017 by Myrelle

[Aeryn13]

Quote

One thing I found really interesting is that Dean thought that John and Bobby dying were acceptable costs of this life, but Mary and Cas dying were too much for him, which I'd like to understand more of why Yockey wrote that. 

I don`t think Dean meant that John and/or Bobby were lesser losses compared to Mary and Cas but that it was more an issue of accumulation. Like, they lost people and Dean still believed. They lost more people and he kept on believing but at this point the cup has runneth over. Just in the negative way. Cas and Mary just happened to be those last drops but that was a bit an issue of chance. 

Quote

 And you’d think Sam would be in Dean ‘s thoughts when he was considering staying dead, protecting Sammy being his prime directive. 

While I`d be perfectly happy if Dean grew beyond that - it`s horrible to break a person`s entire purpose down to another person, as if they are not worth anything on their own - but Sam WAS in his thoughts. He specifically said that he kept dragging Sam down so obviously being dead would ultimately lessen the burden in Dean`s way of thinking.

[Myrelle]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

The Prime Directive is not good for Dean.

Word. Word. And WORD.

2 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I don`t think Dean meant that John and/or Bobby were lesser losses compared to Mary and Cas but that it was more an issue of accumulation. Like, they lost people and Dean still believed. They lost more people and he kept on believing but at this point the cup has runneth over. Just in the negative way. Cas and Mary just happened to be those last drops but that was a bit an issue of chance.

Exactly.

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I don`t think Dean meant that John and/or Bobby were lesser losses compared to Mary and Cas but that it was more an issue of accumulation. Like, they lost people and Dean still believed. They lost more people and he kept on believing but at this point the cup has runneth over. Just in the negative way. Cas and Mary just happened to be those last drops but that was a bit an issue of chance. 

I can see that reading.

[gonzosgirrl]

13 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

He thought he was dragging Sam down. Those were his thoughts concerning Sam. As I said, that was what he took away from that therapy session-that he didn't matter to anything or anyone in the living world so what was the point in going back to it?

Aaaaaand now I'm crying. :(

[DittyDotDot]

2 hours ago, Diane said:

What a beautiful episode.  The camera work was just amazing, it was shot so well. 

Hear, hear! They really need to get John Showalter to direct more. And, bring back Guy Bee. 

33 minutes ago, auntvi said:

And you’d think Sam would be in Dean ‘s thoughts when he was considering staying dead, protecting Sammy being his prime directive. 

I was just telling someone that I think Dean is just tired. Tired of fighting and winning to only lose in the end. And, he knows he can't really die--something always brings him back--so it's a prolonged suffering with no end. I thought what was really interesting was how quickly Dean decided to take a stroll through the veil. He's being completely reckless with his own life, not only because he doesn't think he matters, but life just doesn't mean anything to him right now. So, he's not thinking about what will come after he's gone and he's not thinking about Sammy, he just wants to stop. I don't know how else to explain it other than it's depression which isn't really all that reasonable or logical.

34 minutes ago, auntvi said:

I’m disappointed  they didn’t show much of Sam’s reaction to Dean being temp dead, maybe he would have called someone, tried Chuck. Surely he would have been horrified and panicked when the antidote didn’t work.

I thought they handled that pretty well, actually. I think it's standard Sam to not really believe shit is real at first so they have him focusing on his part and then just kinda stopping when Dean stops, so to speak, and not really knowing what to do. I did love Sam's little "Oh, crap!" when he realized Dean was stabbing himself. 

[Myrelle]

40 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 

 

One thing that I did think about is whether Dean was hoping on some level that Mary was dead so she's not being tortured by Lucifer, given what he knows Lucifer can and WILL do to someone.  Maybe that's a fate Dean just can't allow himself to consider so her being dead is a better option.

This is an interesting thought and one I didn't consider. I wish they would let us know more of Dean's thoughts on this.

[Writing Wrongs]

16 hours ago, Jediknight said:

Cas isn't Cas, no way his whole storyline is wrapped up in only episode 5.

Either way, I wish he'd stayed dead.

So what was the explanation to the cops and parents of who killed the teens? Some random psycho killer?

Edited November 10, 2017 by Writing Wrongs

[Hanahope]

Another set of stupid people go into a killers house at night.  When will they ever learn?  Day time people!!

I'm glad it did end up being more than just another one of 'find the serial killer's contact' and burn it.  I like that the show dealt more with Dean and his grief, Sam trying to make him happy, and I really liked the discussion with Billie/Death.  Great way to keep the actress in the story, and yeah, someone has to take over the role.  So others than just the Winchesters die a lot?  by the look of those shelves.

I had to chuckle over the actress playing the mom in the one episode with the plague masks, as she's the main villian in 12 Monkeys, which also prominently uses plague masks.

Yay for Cas being back!

[Wayward Son]

Least favourite episode of S13 so far! More details over in Bitch vs Jerk! 

 

A good note, hmmmmm, nice continuity with s6 I guess. 

[MysteryGuest]

6 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I know it's giving way too much depth to a show that doesn't much earn the assumption any more, but part of me wonders if maybe Dean secretly hoped, even just a little, that by dying, he would meet a reaper and get an answer one way or the other about Mary's fate. In hindsight, I'm surprised that wasn't what he asked for in his deal with Billie.

I haven't yet watched the episode again, but I could swear that he was just starting to ask her about his mother when she zapped him back.  I'm going to watch again shortly and see if I was hallucinating.  

[Wayward Son]

5 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I haven't yet watched the episode again, but I could swear that he was just starting to ask her about his mother when she zapped him back.  I'm going to watch again shortly and see if I was hallucinating.  

You’re right! He definitely was in the middle of asking her when she sapped him back. 

[MysteryGuest]

31 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

You’re right! He definitely was in the middle of asking her when she sapped him back.

I just downloaded the episode from Amazon and fast-forwarded to that part.  He started to say "I need to know...my mom", and then he was cut off.  So he still wants to believe that she's survived somehow.  

[Katy M]

4 hours ago, Hanahope said:

Another set of stupid people go into a killers house at night.  When will they ever learn?  Day time people!!

Really?  Daytime is your takeaway?  I would think "DON'T GOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

[Bergamot]

10 hours ago, Myrelle said:

I loved that Dean's reaper was was all "Oh no! Dean Winchester is in the Veil..." and then Death showed up.

Yes, that was great! I loved the way Dean, in pursuit of the "ghost dude", brushed right past his reaper. (Reaper: "Hello, my name is Jessica, and I'm here to lead you to your next life--" Dean: "Yeah, hi. Dean. Little busy right now.") Her exasperated, "oh, great, it's Dean Winchester" reaction made me laugh. Ha! No one can annoy and baffle a reaper the way that Dean can!

I have to agree with those who have said that they like Billie better now as Death than they did as a reaper. (Probably an unpopular opinion, but I preferred previous reapers who had a matter-of-fact "doing my job" tone, to Billie's constant "Ooo, I am so cool and badass because I am a reaper" attitude.)

However, and this goes back to my feeling that the show's writing as a whole has deteriorated, Billie as Death is not nearly as impressive, in my opinion, as the previous Death. Wish they hadn't killed him off!  Part of the difference is that Death was originally introduced as this eternal, awe-inspiring, all-knowing Being, older and more powerful than God Himself. (Well, yeah, that comparison did sound more impressive before God Himself showed up as a guest star.) You trembled in Death's presence, even if he did politely offer you a slice of pizza. Now Death is revealed to be not an eternal Being, but a job that just gets passed on to the next reaper unlucky enough to get killed. What a letdown.

It was pretty shocking to have Dean decide to stop his own heart in order to communicate with the ghosts. In a way, though, I wasn't surprised that he was carrying around that little box; I can see Dean thinking about it, concluding that having the ability to "cross over" and communicate directly with the dead might sometimes be a useful strategy, and just adding it to his bag of tools for doing his job. It is shocking because of how reckless and drastic a strategy it is, how little regard it shows Dean has for his own well-being, but it doesn't surprise me how nonchalant he was about it.

I really liked what the episode showed about Dean's state of mind. It makes sense to me that Dean would be in the shape he is in. The original trauma of his life, the one from which everything stemmed, was the death of his mother, and as far as he knows, he has just experienced a recreation of that trauma. Something that I find satisfying is the way there is just such a strong "through line" in the character of Dean, from the little boy who lost his mother, to the man who believes that it is his job to save people. When I see in this episode his grief and bitterness that he could not save Shawn, I flash back to Dean in "Sam Interrupted", who is asked by his imaginary psychiatrist "How many people do you have to save?" and immediately answers, "All of them."

I think that the strength of this through line really comes across because of the way that Dean is embodied by Jensen Ackles. Dean's reaction to seeing the ghost of Shawn, realizing in that moment that the boy he tried to save is dead, and the look in his eyes when Shawn says that he misses his mom -- that really destroyed me!  We have come to know Dean so well over the years, and so I feel like I can understand what is inside him and why he is who he is.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said:

I just downloaded the episode from Amazon and fast-forwarded to that part.  He started to say "I need to know...my mom", and then he was cut off.  So he still wants to believe that she's survived somehow.  

Yes, I just wondered if that was part of the reason he took such drastic measures just to find a body. Like, was he carrying those syringes around just waiting for the opportunity to use them.

[Res]

12 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Or, was it really smart to show how Dean just didn't have two shits to give anymore and was just going through the motions trying to believe he had two shits to give even if he didn't?

No, not at all. It was stupid and OOC as it was shown in S5 "My Bloody Valentine" when Dean gets this low, like dead inside low, he doesn't even care enough to engage in, what did they call it?, "unattached drifter Christmas"? IE strip clubs. Plus, he knew the kid was very disturbed and kids in danger or being hurt are a hot topic for him. So, no, IMO, it was just more checklist Dean quirks whether they make sense or not. (Evidence that Dean overeats enthusiastically to the point of grossness? check. Evidence that Dean is an alcoholic? check. Evidence that Dean has to be a horndog? check. *SIGH*)

[MysteryGuest]

I agree that Dean's eating an entire pound of bacon in one sitting was a bit much, but he did have a slice of cantaloupe along with that bacon, so it's all good!  As for alcoholic Dean, I found it interesting that he didn't partake of the morning beer or the bottle of whatever Sam gave him in the restaurant.  Obviously, he had tied one on the night before, and my guess would be he hit that strip club without Sam.  Unfortunately, I'm not sure we'll ever get the writers to steer clear of some of the more obvious tropes.  There must be a faction of fandom that enjoys watching Dean wear his food.  

[ahrtee]

I have very mixed feelings about this one.  On first view, I was annoyed at the beginning, (especially Dean-as-drunken-slob, which is a trope I sincerely hope never to see again); and I actually found the video "recording/battery level" in the top very distracting.  Even when I realized it did indicate whose POV they were showing, it just annoyed me.  HOWEVER, as full disclosure:  I had just switched out my cable box about an hour before and I wasn't 100% sure I'd gotten everything hooked up right, so I spent some time worrying if it was my DVD recorder putting those symbols at the top of the screen. :) 

I honestly thought Sam was possessed by Jack (up until his annoyance at finding Dean passed out on the floor), but on second view I could see where he was coming from (though really?  Do people actually write on-line reviews of strip clubs? Who knew?)  I didn't think much of the MoW (basically a rehash of Asylum, Ghostfacers and Of Grave Importance, among others) but it wasn't too important so it didn't really distract.  

I did like the two working together well, with no arguing; Sam obviously worrying about Dean; Dean's obvious despair, and the whole confrontation with Billie.

However, questions/dislikes:

1.  Why was Sam so willing to leave Jack alone, after all the fuss last week about bringing him along (that was one of the reasons I was convinced that Sam was actually Jack in disguise).  I know he's a little wiser now and they've decided he's not likely to go nuclear yet; BUT:  does he know about food?  (Can he live on PB&Js for 3 meals a day till they get back, or have they explained ordering out?  Did they leave him a credit card?  Does the local pizza place deliver to the bunker?)  And mostly, what if something had gone wrong--if they'd both been killed or injured or otherwise delayed and unable to return in a reasonable amount of time.  They've both lived through that with John, and this time there's no one for Jack to call for emergencies.  But that's too much logic for here, I guess. :(  

2.  The time was pretty wonky, but that's par for the course, I guess.  And that was the cleanest haunted mansion I've ever seen (everything still neatly in place 50+ years later) and apparently there haven't been any disappearances until now to ting any warning bells for other hunters (including John, who had such detailed notes on the haunted asylum.)

3.  How many reapers die/get killed?  If they're really angels, they should be immortal, so can they only be killed by angel blades?  And mostly, who would want to kill them?  They're (or used to be) neutral, hauling souls to both heaven and hell, so it's not like they have enemies on either side.  And now that the angels wars are (supposedly) settled down, again, who would want to kill them?  (I can't imagine other reapers would try "promotion via assassination" like ancient Rome.)  :)

As a side note on that (I honestly don't remember):  I know Chuck sent Kevin to heaven (say that three times fast) but did he open the doors again so everyone can get back in?  Did he get all the souls out of the veil and new ones can just go easily?  Can any angel get back into heaven the usual way or do they still have to use the sandbox?  (And if he fixed everything, why can't the angels teleport any more?)  

But my two biggest dislikes (and/or questions):

1.  Cas returning wasn't exactly a "win" when Dean was talking about all his failures.**  He and Sam had nothing to do with it--that was all Cas's doing (so, as noted elsewhere, a win for Cas, not Dean.)  So it may be one weight off Dean's shoulders (that is, he hadn't lost *all* his friends/family) but it still wasn't the kind of "win" he was talking about; and mostly:

2.  Did anyone notice that Billie's whole speech to Dean was yet another "suck it up, Princess" speech, only couched in kinder, more flattering terms?  "Too bad if you're tired.  Stop whining.  You have an important job to do so you can't quit.  You just have to keep going."  That's pretty much what Bobby, Elliott Ness, Frank Devereux and Death himself told Dean over and over.  So this time Billie added in the pat on the head to say that he and Sam are somehow special, to make swallowing the medicine easier; but it's still the same old, "you're not allowed to give up, the work is more important than you, so just keep on plugging away no matter how tired and broken you feel, because you're not a person, you're a hunter," (thank you, Bobby!)  

So on the one hand I really liked that they (including Sam and Dean himself) acknowledged how far down he's sunk, how depressed he is; but the only answer they all give him is "suck it up and keep on going."  Getting Cas back will help, but he still needs to feel that he's doing something good.  He still needs a win that's his own, to show that he can make a difference.

As a side note:  Is what they're supposed to be doing is saving people?  Is Billie saying that he and Sam are part of the natural order to *prevent* people from dying before their time and without them the order would break down? Hmmm.... 

 

**ETA: Removing a loss isn't the same as a win; it doesn't have the same pride or sense of accomplishment, even if the results are what you were hoping for.

Edited November 11, 2017 by ahrtee
Additional thought

[DeeDee79]

44 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

  Did anyone notice that Billie's whole speech to Dean was yet another "suck it up, Princess" speech, only couched in kinder, more flattering terms?  "Too bad if you're tired.  Stop whining.  You have an important job to do so you can't quit.  You just have to keep going."  That's pretty much what Bobby, Elliott Ness, Frank Devereux and Death himself told Dean over and over.  So this time Billie added in the pat on the head that to say that he and Sam are somehow special, to make swallowing the medicine easier; but it's still the same old, "you're not allowed to give up, the work is more important than you, so just keep on plugging away no matter how tired and broken you feel, because you're not a person, you're a hunter," (thank you, Bobby!)  

Which is because the writers ( stupidly) think that Dean always needs a tough love approach in order to keep him motivated. Kind words and praise for all that he's endured just won't do! Throw some insults and obligatory speeches about the bigger picture at him; that'll do the trick! Ugh...

[ahrtee]

1 minute ago, DeeDee79 said:

Which is because the writers ( stupidly) think that Dean always needs a tough love approach in order to keep him motivated. Kind words and praise for all that he's endured just won't do! Throw some insults and obligatory speeches about the bigger picture at him; that'll do the trick! Ugh...

Well, to be fair :) they kind of wrote themselves into a corner with the characters.  They can't just say,  "oh, poor baby," or "you know, you're right.  You might as well kill yourself," or "Yeah, why don't you take a break?  Go relax somewhere for a few months--there are plenty of other hunters around to take care of things till you feel better."  That wouldn't be much of a show.  And Billie at least was kind(er) about it.  But I'd like some kind of acknowledgment of his pain, the way Dean gave to Kevin IIRC, "yeah, I know it sucks.  And it's not going to get better, though you'll probably get used to it.  But at least you're doing something important."  And then actually *tell* him some of his wins.  Or better yet, show them, in a kind of "this is your life," clip show.  A little sympathy instead of that "tough love" for Dean, not just Sam or Kevin.  He's not the same guy he was 12 or 13 years ago when he needed John's kind of badgering.  He's so low right now that he needs propping up, not snapped orders, and I wish the Show would show that.  And it might be even better if someone tried to give Dean sympathy, and that snapped him out of his funk.  Just...something different, because the old tropes aren't working any more.  

[DeeDee79]

4 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Well, to be fair :) they kind of wrote themselves into a corner with the characters.  They can't just say,  "oh, poor baby," or "you know, you're right.  You might as well kill yourself," or "Yeah, why don't you take a break?  Go relax somewhere for a few months--there are plenty of other hunters around to take care of things till you feel better."  That wouldn't be much of a show.  And Billie at least was kind(er) about it.  But I'd like some kind of acknowledgment of his pain, the way Dean gave to Kevin IIRC, "yeah, I know it sucks.  And it's not going to get better, though you'll probably get used to it.  But at least you're doing something important."  And then actually *tell* him some of his wins.  Or better yet, show them, in a kind of "this is your life," clip show.  A little sympathy instead of that "tough love" for Dean, not just Sam or Kevin.  He's not the same guy he was 12 or 13 years ago when he needed John's kind of badgering.  He's so low right now that he needs propping up, not snapped orders, and I wish the Show would show that.  And it might be even better if someone tried to give Dean sympathy, and that snapped him out of his funk.  Just...something different, because the old tropes aren't working any more.  

Responding in Dean Winchester: Aka Squirrel to be safe...

[Diane]

Watching again, you know the last time they stayed in a hotel with a buffet, just saying.

[takalotti]

Why did Sam draw a salt circle around Dean's body but didn’t include himself in it?

 

Sam: (injects Dean)

Dean: (doesn’t wake up)

Me: NOOO! If he dies he’ll go to the Empty and Cas JUST got out of the Empty and they'll still be separated! NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

(glad I was wrong!)

 

Billie: You WANT to die.

Me: (Gasp!) BecauseHeKnowsHe'llGoToTheEmptyAndHeThinksCasIsThereOhMyGodHeWantsToDieSoHeCanBeWithCas!!!

(Okay, I didn’t really believe that was why, but I have fun thinking crazy things in the moment.)

 

13 hours ago, Myrelle said:

I know that his grief arc will be over with the return of Cas and that this is not in any way, how real grief or depression of such magnitude works or functions, but on this fictional show, this IS how it works for Dean. He will likely now focus on Jack and keeping him on the straight and narrow

Will he though? If he thought Cas got killed because he was trying to protect Jack and the only reason Cas WANTED to protect Jack was because he was drinking the kool-aid of Jack's "false promises" of paradise, would Dean really get on board the "help Jack be good" train? Or would he want to keep Cas far away from Jack now that Cas came back so that he wouldn’t lose Cas again?

Edited November 11, 2017 by takalotti

[Mick Lady]

22 hours ago, Omegamom said:

Ahhh. Liked it. That ending! (I do like that Cas threatened the Empty Creature with just being too damned annoying for eternity... ;-) )

I still want the original Death back, but Billie-as-Death is better than Billie-as-Reaper.

(Hi, guys!)

Omegamom! First a good episode, and now you're back! What a great night! I've missed you!

[gonzosgirrl]

I don't think Cas coming back is Dean's win. It will absolutely make him happy (until Dabb finds a way to punish him for it) but Dean has nothing to do with Cas' resurrection.  He needs to save some people and I hope he gets his win(s) soon. 

[RileyMay]

19 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I don`t think Dean meant that John and/or Bobby were lesser losses compared to Mary and Cas but that it was more an issue of accumulation. Like, they lost people and Dean still believed. They lost more people and he kept on believing but at this point the cup has runneth over. Just in the negative way. Cas and Mary just happened to be those last drops but that was a bit an issue of chance. 

 

When John and Bobby died there was years between the deaths and there time to process and keep going. They lost both Mary and Cas in the space of a few minutes. Cas has died before but he'd always came back but the difference this time was there was a body and burnt wings and that made it more final.

[Pondlass1]

11 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

There must be a faction of fandom that enjoys watching Dean wear his food.

I think Dabb is that fan club all by himself.  Dean was always a bit of a  neat freak.  Dabb sees Dean about as deep as a puddle.  His sticky fingers were all over that bacon scene.  I wish Jensen didn't go along with it.

I was talking with a friend that also watches the show (casual viewer, tho) and we had a laugh thinking about the strippers at that strip club.  My friend said - can you imagine them all fighting over who gets the lap dance with the tall handsome dude that just walked in.  Let's face it, very few patrons of strip clubs look like Dean Winchester.  I'll bet he was real popular.  (Let's hope Dean rode back to the motel in a cab.)

I thought they spent too long with the 2 boys at the mansion TBH.  We've seen those scenes a hundred times before.  And wouldn't that big empty mansion be a meth house by now?  Freaked out druggies a lot more dangerous than a masked ghost with  a drill.

I still prefer Death over Billie.  Although Death held a certain respect for Dean, he interacted with him as if he were - well, bacteria.  Something to be brushed off his coat.  Billie talks nice, but it's still snotty.

Lots of why's and WTF's but still the best episode of the season so far for me.  I try to 'let it go' while viewing Supernatural and most other shows.  

[Myrelle]

13 hours ago, Bergamot said:

I think that the strength of this through line really comes across because of the way that Dean is embodied by Jensen Ackles. Dean's reaction to seeing the ghost of Shawn, realizing in that moment that the boy he tried to save is dead, and the look in his eyes when Shawn says that he misses his mom -- that really destroyed me!  We have come to know Dean so well over the years, and so I feel like I can understand what is inside him and why he is who he is.

ITA and I re-watched yesterday and could not agree more with that bolded part and I further think that the loss of this "scared little kid"(the way he said those words to Billie spoke volumes about this) was the tipping point for Dean, and likely what made him consider using Dr. Robert's syringes.

As for seeing Billie's words as just another suck it up speech, I didn't. She noticed that something was "different" about him. She noticed that he wanted to die-not so much that he wanted to kill himself, because he fully expected to be brought back by Sam after the three minutes had elapsed-but once he realized that that wasn't going to work, he was in Billie's hands and new title or not-he remembered how they'd left things off the last time he saw her and assumed that she wasn't going to let him go back, but it was the lack of putting up a fight for that to happen that Billie noticed-that was the thing that was "off" about him. She saw how pronounced it was this time and when she said those words-"You want to die."-Dean said nothing to deny that; only that he was accepting of his fate and that there was going to be no begging or pleading this time. He was done with that. I loved that part of their interaction.

Jensen's BoneWearyDean was what sold their entire interaction more than anything else, IMO and what made Billie's message different was that she truly noticed how down trodden he was, how completely done in and even in her role as Death, there was an air of sympathy/empathy for him from her-something he's rarely been shown by even his loved ones when this has happened in the past and when it was happening again this time. And, in a way, the only being who Dean might have thought could have an understanding of how he was truly feeling, the real depth of his grief, sorrow, and depression at this time, would be Death, his old friend who never seems to want to leave him or quit his side. So, in that way, Death might have been the only being who could have helped Dean this time around and she did just by noticing that this time it was different and then she proceeded to reinforce the more positive aspects of his existence and the importance of his existence to the world. That was something of what Dean needed to hear more than anything else. And he wasn't "all better" even after their encounter. He still needed a win. And while Cas' return might not equate to saving people, for Dean it will be a sign of hope-something he so desperately needed to just keep on going with that "important work" that he has apparently been tasked with within the big picture stuff, but that has also taken so much from him and out of him in his life-or "lives", to be more precise. ;-)

I find it interesting that Death can always find time or a way to answer Dean in a concrete manner, but Chuck/God apparently cannot.

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, Myrelle said:

As for seeing Billie's words as just another suck it up speech, I didn't. She noticed that something was "different" about him. She noticed that he wanted to die-not so much that he wanted to kill himself, because he fully expected to be brought back by Sam after the three minutes had elapsed-but once he realized that that wasn't going to work, he was in Billie's hands and new title or not-he remembered how they'd left things off the last time he saw her and assumed that she wasn't going to let him go back, but it was the lack of putting up a fight for that to happen that Billie noticed-that was the thing that was "off" about him. She saw how pronounced it was this time and when she said those words-"You want to die."-Dean said nothing to deny that; only that he was accepting of his fate and that there was going to be no begging or pleading this time. He was done with that. I loved that part of their interaction.

Jensen's BoneWearyDean was what sold their entire interaction more than anything else, IMO and what made Billie's message different was that she truly noticed how down trodden he was, how completely done in and even in her role as Death, there was an air of sympathy/empathy for him from her-something he's rarely been shown by even his loved ones when this has happened in the past and when it was happening again this time. And, in a way, the only being who Dean might have thought could have an understanding of how he was truly feeling, the real depth of his grief, sorrow, and depression at this time, would be Death, his old friend who never seems to want to leave him or quit his side. So, in that way, Death might have been the only being who could have helped Dean this time around and she did just by noticing that this time it was different and then she proceeded to reinforce the more positive aspects of his existence and the importance of his existence to the world. That was something of what Dean needed to hear more than anything else. And he wasn't "all better" even after their encounter. He still needed a win. And while Cas' return might not equate to saving people, for Dean it will be a sign of hope-something he so desperately needed to just keep on going with that "important work" that he has apparently been tasked with within the big picture stuff, but that has also taken so much from him and out of him in his life-or "lives", to be more precise. ;-)

 

The problem for me is that she might have noticed how completely down he was, but so did Bobby.  So did Sam and Cas in PONR.  Even Elliot Ness saw it.  And they still all said the same thing.  

I actually think the only being who ever offered Dean overt sympathy was Joshua in DSofM--he at least acknowledged that Dean had lost hope and that there was nothing he could do--he even said the magic words "I'm sorry" and "I'm rooting for you."  All Billie was doing was acknowledge (maybe somewhat sympathetically)  that he wanted to die and then said "too bad.  You can't.  There's too much for you to do."  I don't consider that as particularly supportive, though (as I said) it was phrased a little nicer than "suck it up Princess."  He mentioned his losses, and she didn't counter with any wins or anything to show him he was still needed, so I didn't see her "reinforcing the more positive aspects of his existence" except just to *say* that he's important and therefore can't quit when he wants to.  Why should he believe her, when all the angels and demons have been lying to him for 13 years?  Especially to someone bone-weary and ready to die, even if not completely suicidal, I would see that more as a negative than a positive.  Where's his free will?  He's stuck doing TPTB's bidding once again, only in a way that he'll accept--by saving people, not destroying the world.  JMO.

Having said all that, I did like the interaction and I especially loved Jensen's performance.  I just wish they'd gone a different way and given him some kind of hope or at least understanding to hold onto.  

[Myrelle]

6 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

The problem for me is that she might have noticed how completely down he was, but so did Bobby.  So did Sam and Cas in PONR.  Even Elliot Ness saw it.  And they still all said the same thing.  

See the problem for me in this was that yes, he should have received more kindness and understanding from Bobby, Sam, and Cas at all those times, and instead, it felt as if they barely even acknowledged or touched on his pain before telling him to just get over it already; and the words they used were the worst.

I'd never expect kindness and understanding of Dean's pain from the Death character, though, and yet this character offered more of that than anyone else has this season. That says something to me and while I'd also love more kind and understanding words from other characters(and definitely, DEFINITELY! more you're strong and you're a hero, too, Dean moments), I guess I've just become accustomed to the thought that he's not going to get them that often out of the writers, so an interaction of the type that we saw between Dean and Death in this one being not even half as bad as some of even his loved ones attempts at that, yes, said something to me. It said that Death is likely more understanding of Dean's plight in life than even any of his loved ones. And while I find that sad, I also find it more apt to each character within the story, honestly.

I'm also thinking that a lot of the good stuff that came out of their interaction in this one had as much, if not more, to do with the acting on the parts of both Jensen and Lisa Berry in their scenes together. She really upped her game and gave a much more layered performance in this episode than she's ever given us before on this show, IMO, so there's that, too. Her acting softened a lot of the dialogue, IMO-an Ackles specialty-so maybe his style rubbed off on her a bit here. I could see and hear that Billie the Reaper's tune had changed once she took on the mantle of Death-and especially where it concerned the Winchesters.

I can't consider it the character Death's place to be overtly kind and understanding with Dean, or with anyone for that matter. I've always considered what Death said to Sam in that one season premiere as just words that Sam would want to hear to get him to go into the afterlife with him-spin, if you will. To me, Death(both that one and this one) is not a fanboy or girl and I wouldn't think that that tack would work with Dean, in any case. We saw Tessa try that with Dean in IMTOD. No, what works best for Dean, IMO, is truth and honesty mixed in with a genuine understanding of all the pain and suffering that hunting and saving the world have brought into his life from childhood. IMO, her "You want to die." had similar connotations to what Cas said to Dean upon their first meeting "You don't think you deserve to be saved.". These statements, delivered as they were, showed genuine understanding of Dean's feelings and thoughts(and this even though they weren't couched in flowery words) and that's what I want to see-and more importantly feel-from other characters when they're trying to break through to Dean when such deep grief and depression and darkness gets ahold of him.

So maybe for me, it was more the acting than the script that made those scenes work better in this one than other similar scenes in the past have, which isn't any real surprise to me at all, at this point.

[MysteryGuest]

43 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Having said all that, I did like the interaction and I especially loved Jensen's performance.  I just wish they'd gone a different way and given him some kind of hope or at least understanding to hold onto. 

I think this is where Cas comes in.  Finding him alive is a "win" for Dean, IMO, because they always lose everyone.  While I know he wants to save people from monsters, he also would like to not lose every single person he cares about.  I think having Cas back will go a long way toward helping him get back on track.  Their lives suck, there's no question about that, and Dean is always the first one to tell that to anyone who thinks about becoming a hunter, or living the life they live.  I didn't really need for Billie to give him a pat on the head.  She just reminded him that there's a bigger purpose for him and Sam, and yeah, it sucks to be them.  

[devlin123]

Wow what a depressing episode made even more tragic by JA's beautiful acting. Dean would be dead if it weren't for someone else deciding that he wasn't allowed to finally rest but that he had to shoulder yet another burden. It is sad that Dean only sees his worth in what he can do for  others. Sam was so intent on Lucifer's son and proving he was right that he failed to notice his own flesh and blood was slowly drowning. The sad irony of it is that I bet Jack feels he matters, Sam made sure of that

[Reganne]

26 minutes ago, devlin123 said:

Wow what a depressing episode made even more tragic by JA's beautiful acting. Dean would be dead if it weren't for someone else deciding that he wasn't allowed to finally rest but that he had to shoulder yet another burden. It is sad that Dean only sees his worth in what he can do for  others. Sam was so intent on Lucifer's son and proving he was right that he failed to notice his own flesh and blood was slowly drowning. The sad irony of it is that I bet Jack feels he matters, Sam made sure of that

I thought a lot of this episode dealt with Sam trying to make Dean feel better.  He left Jack behind so that he could focus on Dean.  

[gonzosgirrl]

36 minutes ago, devlin123 said:

Wow what a depressing episode made even more tragic by JA's beautiful acting. Dean would be dead if it weren't for someone else deciding that he wasn't allowed to finally rest but that he had to shoulder yet another burden. It is sad that Dean only sees his worth in what he can do for  others. Sam was so intent on Lucifer's son and proving he was right that he failed to notice his own flesh and blood was slowly drowning. The sad irony of it is that I bet Jack feels he matters, Sam made sure of that

I agree with the majority of this, except I don't think Dean would've been dead. He did what he did with every intention of Sam reviving him. It was Billie who intervened in order to talk to Dean. It wasn't until that conversation that Dean expressed indifference about going back. Same as in Red Meat. He intended the doc to revive him, though he was willing to trade his life for Sam's once his bargaining didn't work out.

One thing I'm 100% sure of, if Dean intended to commit suicide, there's no way he'd do it right in front of Sam, especially having given him the means to save him. 

[Res]

52 minutes ago, devlin123 said:

Wow what a depressing episode made even more tragic by JA's beautiful acting. Dean would be dead if it weren't for someone else deciding that he wasn't allowed to finally rest but that he had to shoulder yet another burden. It is sad that Dean only sees his worth in what he can do for  others. Sam was so intent on Lucifer's son and proving he was right that he failed to notice his own flesh and blood was slowly drowning. The sad irony of it is that I bet Jack feels he matters, Sam made sure of that

Wish I could like this a thousand times over!

[MysteryGuest]

9 minutes ago, Reganne said:

I thought a lot of this episode dealt with Sam trying to make Dean feel better.  He left Jack behind so that he could focus on Dean.

I think what gets lost in all of this is the fact that Sam isn't exactly in the best head space, either.  Both brothers have experienced a great loss.  So yes, Sam should be more supportive and concerned about Dean, but as we saw last week, Sam's determination that Jack will be able to help them save Mary is also wavering.  It's not like one brother is fine and the other is depressed.  They're each dealing with their own issues, only differently, because they are different people with different coping mechanisms.  

I'll give credit to Sam for putting his plans with Jack aside (big hand wave because I don't really see them leaving Lucifer's spawn at home to sit around and watch Netflix by himself), and trying to do something that would help Dean dig himself out of the hole he's in.  Dean's mantra has always been that he'll keep up the good fight until he can't do it anymore, so getting him involved in what should have been a run-of-the-mill hunt probably seemed like a good idea.  Unfortunately, things went sideways so Dean admittedly tried something a bit desperate to help make up for not being able to save the teen.  

I'm not exactly sure whether we're supposed to think the antidote didn't work and Dean would have died until Billie brought him back, or that it did work but Dean didn't think Billie was going to let him live.  The last time he did this trick, she was all set to reap him when the doctor was able to revive him.  

[catrox14]

This might be a bit of an UO but upon a rewatch I find Sam's efforts with Dean...kind of, I dunno, sad isn't really the right word but superficial in a way. That's why I thought FOR SURE that Sam was Jack and Jack was going off what is in Sam's memory banks and understanding of Dean. Or that Jack only got the "cliffs notes" version of Dean.

What I found really interesting is that Dean was actually practicing some pretty darn healthy self care by making HIMSELF a PBJ which is a nutritious meal. He wasn't doing it for anyone else and I think maybe some of it was Dean comforting himself with a sandwich that Mary made for him and that Cas liked. And it might just be that Dean really wanted a PBJ. 

It kind of bothered me when after Dean rejected Sam's offer of the beer for breakfast, Sam persisted (the first reason I thought it was Jack and not Sam). Why did Sam push that onto Dean when Dean said, "I'm cool" which meant he didn't want one? It was like Sam couldn't fathom that Dean didn't want to drink that early. Has Dean generally drank in the bunker during breakfast? He  nearly puked when Mick asked for vodka when he was hungover. It doesn't seem like he does since Sam said "Live a little" and set a beer in front of  Dean. I don't think it was OOC but maybe a sign that Sam really doesn't understand Dean as well as he thinks he does.

[Res]

35 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I don't think it was OOC but maybe a sign that Sam really doesn't understand Dean as well as he thinks he does.

I've actually always thought this. And this isn't necessarily a dig on Sam. My family thinks they know me but they really don't at all, no matter how much they like to think that, because they never looked below the surface of what I showed them. They also ignored everything that I've told them when I had to break down and let them in. They brushed it away and continued to believe what they thought they knew anyway. Secure in the knowledge that they knew me better than I did myself.

Edited November 11, 2017 by Res
clarification

[catrox14]

I didn't notice this on either watch. LOL

I wonder if this was all Jensen or that the door was supposed to open but didn't, so Jensen just rolled with it, or if it was scripted this way. Regardless, I love how Dean is just like 'WTF why isn't this automatic door working' and he's just SOOOO DONE. 

LOL

source: justjensenanddean

 

Edited November 12, 2017 by catrox14

[gonzosgirrl]

4 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I think what gets lost in all of this is the fact that Sam isn't exactly in the best head space, either.  Both brothers have experienced a great loss.  So yes, Sam should be more supportive and concerned about Dean, but as we saw last week, Sam's determination that Jack will be able to help them save Mary is also wavering.  It's not like one brother is fine and the other is depressed.  They're each dealing with their own issues, only differently, because they are different people with different coping mechanisms.  

I'll give credit to Sam for putting his plans with Jack aside (big hand wave because I don't really see them leaving Lucifer's spawn at home to sit around and watch Netflix by himself), and trying to do something that would help Dean dig himself out of the hole he's in.  Dean's mantra has always been that he'll keep up the good fight until he can't do it anymore, so getting him involved in what should have been a run-of-the-mill hunt probably seemed like a good idea.  Unfortunately, things went sideways so Dean admittedly tried something a bit desperate to help make up for not being able to save the teen.  

I'm not exactly sure whether we're supposed to think the antidote didn't work and Dean would have died until Billie brought him back, or that it did work but Dean didn't think Billie was going to let him live.  The last time he did this trick, she was all set to reap him when the doctor was able to revive him.  

I think we're supposed to believe the antidote would've worked, but Billie froze time while she talked to Dean. 

[DeeDee79]

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Has Dean generally drank in the bunker during breakfast?

The only instance that I can remember was in The Vessel when he drank beer because there wasn't any coffee left but it wasn't quite breakfast time:
 

Quote

 

[DEAN takes a swig of beer.]

SAM

Seriously? Dude it's like noon.

DEAN

Uh, well you drank all the coffee, so what am I supposed to drink, water?

 

[MysteryGuest]

I don't think Dean makes a habit of drinking beer for breakfast.  Although, it makes a fine mister for ironing!  Sam may have been trying a bit too hard with the beer and the badge, etc., but I think his heart was in the right place.  He just wanted Dean to have what he thought might make him happy.  Sam knows he can't really fix the problems, because he can't fix them for himself, either, but at least he was thinking of Dean with no ulterior motive.  Had things gone the way they should have, they'd have saved the boy and gotten rid of the ghost, so it would have been a nice win for them and might have made Dean feel just an infinitesimal bit better.  Unfortunately, things didn't go according to plan.

[catrox14]

I don't think Dean has a death wish. I still stand by my assertion that Dean has long believed that he should have died in Faith. Not that he wanted to die, but that he had accepted it was his time. Sam wouldn't accept Deans impending death. I think for all the hue and Cry over Dean and his Prime Directive of Sammy Must Live, the person who challenged the natural order first beteen them was Sam. And someone died in Deans place because of Sam not accepting Deans death (and because if Dean died what would have happened to the show?). Marshall's death wasn't Sam's  fault, because he didn't know what was happening yet it was Sams inability to accept Deans death that lead to Marshall dying instead of Dean.

Dean's acceptance of his own imminent death in Faith wasnt because he had low self  esteem and thought his life was worthless. It was a matter that he didn't  think his life was worth more than another person's. Roy said he had purpose on this Earth but Roy didn't have any special insights. To me, he ws saying what any decent person would say to someone who he thinks doesn't have faith.

I think Dean has been carrying around that kit solely to walk through the veil. If it ws his suicide kit he would not have carried the antidote as well. So, yes I think Dean may have been in deep grief and willing to stay dead once Billie had him, but he wasn't trying to commit suicide in this episode.

[DittyDotDot]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I don't think Dean has a death wish. I still stand by my assertion that Dean has long believed that he should have died in Faith. Not that he wanted to die, but that he had accepted it was his time.

I don't know that I'd say Dean has a death wish as much as Dean just doesn't think he has a purpose anymore so he doesn't care if he lives or dies. So, I wouldn't say he's suicidal, but severely depressed and being reckless with his own life.