S13.E04: The Big Empty

[Katy M]

38 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

So....here's a question.

Was Mia in her born shifter body? Or did she take another person's form? Aren't shifters basically born from..well sketchy means. Even the shifter babies in s6, were a result of shifter using a body. Like there was the Alpha shifter so is Mia a child of shifters and she didn't take another person?

I'm assuming Mia is in her actual form. Or a form she created.  I don't think she killed anyone to take their place.  I suppose it's possible someone died of some other means and she hid the body and too k over, but that would be dangerous of being discovered.  And, the shifters that we saw in S6 when Eve was trying to build an army, or whatever, were born of sketchy means.  But, that doesn't mean that every shifter ever was.  Maybe Mia is so well adjusted because she grew up knowing one of her parents was a shifter, or maybe even both, and they raised her to use her powers for good.

[catrox14]

45 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I'm assuming Mia is in her actual form. Or a form she created.  I don't think she killed anyone to take their place.  I suppose it's possible someone died of some other means and she hid the body and too k over, but that would be dangerous of being discovered.  And, the shifters that we saw in S6 when Eve was trying to build an army, or whatever, were born of sketchy means.  But, that doesn't mean that every shifter ever was.  Maybe Mia is so well adjusted because she grew up knowing one of her parents was a shifter, or maybe even both, and they raised her to use her powers for good.

That could be. Thanks for answering!

[SueB]

Or... Mia grew up in a household with the TNT network and fell in love with the visage of ‘Camille’ for a S7 episode that was playing on TNT rewatch... and has stayed that way ever since.  

[MysteryGuest]

8 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Was Mia in her born shifter body? Or did she take another person's form? Aren't shifters basically born from..well sketchy means. Even the shifter babies in s6, were a result of shifter using a body. Like there was the Alpha shifter so is Mia a child of shifters and she didn't take another person?

Mia mentions "changing" after she broke up with her psycho boyfriend.  That's how she managed to hide from him for a while.  Now whether she took on some deceased person's identity or just some random face she saw in a crowd, I don't know.  But based on what she said, her current persona is not what she was born with.

[Affogato]

On 11/5/2017 at 10:18 PM, catrox14 said:

This makes me think about how Lucifer couldn't be killed by Bobby's gun nor Cas' blade in the AU. Maybe someone from "our" side can't die in the AU. Of course, Cas used apparently his own angel blade and not an archangel blade but maybe he did and it just doesn't work. Maybe Crowley didn't really die at all in the AU? I wouldn't put it past Dabb to re-cast Crowley in a new meatsuit, or at least Fergus MacCleod.

The woman that played Crowley/Shepherd  was spot on.

[Jynnan tonnix]

On 11/6/2017 at 4:05 AM, SueB said:

You are correct about that accent @catrox14  

For those who don't know the backstory, mid-atlantic is a 'taught' American aristocrat dialect popular in the 30's.  
Academic:

 

 

Katherine Hepburn & Cary Grant speaking with that accent: 

I couldn't quite place what it was either until Catrox mentioned Katharine Hepburn earlier. I knew it was making me think of someone, but kept trying to connect it to men it might be, I guess. Didn't even think of Cary Grant...I don't know why, but I don't really recall seeing more than a couple of his movies. His voice is not one I really ever think of.

[Jynnan tonnix]

13 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

Mia mentions "changing" after she broke up with her psycho boyfriend.  That's how she managed to hide from him for a while.  Now whether she took on some deceased person's identity or just some random face she saw in a crowd, I don't know.  But based on what she said, her current persona is not what she was born with.

This makes me wonder about the logistics of "changing". They probably explained it when the shifters first came up, but I must have missed it. They shed the outward appearance when they change from their original looks, but not when they first change into them, there being no outer skin, at that point. But if Mia was not her original persona, would she have to shed that prior to taking on another (such as Kelly)? It always seems as though, given how much gunk they peel off themselves, that there is should be much more of it to dispose of than we ever really see.

[MysteryGuest]

7 hours ago, Jynnan tonnix said:

This makes me wonder about the logistics of "changing". They probably explained it when the shifters first came up, but I must have missed it. They shed the outward appearance when they change from their original looks, but not when they first change into them, there being no outer skin, at that point. But if Mia was not her original persona, would she have to shed that prior to taking on another (such as Kelly)? It always seems as though, given how much gunk they peel off themselves, that there is should be much more of it to dispose of than we ever really see.

As with most things in the SPN world, a lot is left to speculation.  We've always seen the discarded slimy remainder from the shifters, along with the clothing of whatever person they were impersonating, but I have no clue as to whether they can take on a persona on top of one they've been wearing for years.  It seems like a damn lot of work to have to continuously shed/peel off layers of skin, especially if you do what this doctor does, and take on the images of dead loved ones for a living.  Just how does she dispose of all the discarded tissue?  It can't exactly just go down the drain in the bathtub.  And I would think it would get exhausting having to constantly clean up all of the bloody handprints all over the house.  She wasn't exactly doing a bang up job with that.  There was blood on the "employees only" sign, on the stairs, all over the shower curtain, and the tub.  She must spend half her day cleaning up after herself!

[KirkB]

3 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

It seems like a damn lot of work to have to continuously shed/peel off layers of skin, especially if you do what this doctor does, and take on the images of dead loved ones for a living.

Now that you mention it, what do you suppose her patients are thinking when she mentions she has a treatment that might help, then walks out of the room and they wait a few minutes possibly while listening to this weird, icky sound as she rips her skin off?

[Myrelle]

7 hours ago, KirkB said:

Now that you mention it, what do you suppose her patients are thinking when she mentions she has a treatment that might help, then walks out of the room and they wait a few minutes possibly while listening to this weird, icky sound as she rips her skin off?

And then their dead loved one appears. ;-D

[takalotti]

4 hours ago, Myrelle said:

 

12 hours ago, KirkB said:

Now that you mention it, what do you suppose her patients are thinking when she mentions she has a treatment that might help, then walks out of the room and they wait a few minutes possibly while listening to this weird, icky sound as she rips her skin off?

And then their dead loved one appears. ;-D

Well, I don’t think she does it like that. She just did that with Jack because he knew.

 

In the little flashes they’d showed of her appearing to other patients, it seemed to be in their houses, not her office.

Edited November 8, 2017 by takalotti

[RulerofallIsurvey]

17 minutes ago, takalotti said:

In the little flashes they’d showed of her appearing to other patients, it seemed to be in their houses, not her office.

Wasn't that the other shifter who appeared to the man as his dead wife in his house?  I could be not remembering everything though.  I also thought she did it in her office - which was why there was skin and hair in her bathtub upstairs for Sam to find. 

[Myrelle]

23 minutes ago, takalotti said:

Well, I don’t think she does it like that. She just did that with Jack because he knew.

 

 

5 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I also thought she did it in her office - which was why there was skin and hair in her bathtub upstairs for Sam to find. 

Sure she did. I think it was explained away as they're so happy to see their dead loved one again that they don't question it, which is the biggest LOL moment of this ridiculously written episode, IMO. Because not one person is going to freak out when that happens?! Not one? Or maybe the ones who did that, just left her office thinking they were crazy. I mean what else could they do? Write a review? :-D

[Jeddah]

48 minutes ago, takalotti said:

Well, I don’t think she does it like that. She just did that with Jack because he knew.

 

In the little flashes they’d showed of her appearing to other patients, it seemed to be in their houses, not her office.

That’s what those flashes looked like to me too. I assumed she waited to change until she got back to her office, and that’s why there was evidence for Sam to find.

[Katy M]

29 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

 

Sure she did. I think it was explained away as they're so happy to see their dead loved one again that they don't question it, which is the biggest LOL moment of this ridiculously written episode, IMO. Because not one person is going to freak out when that happens?! Not one? Or maybe the ones who did that, just left her office thinking they were crazy. I mean what else could they do? Write a review? :-D

Alright.  Now, I totally need to see her Yelp page.

But, she did say something about them thinking it was hypnosis, so maybe she pretended to hypnotize them or something.

[Myrelle]

7 minutes ago, Katy M said:

But, she did say something about them thinking it was  hypnosis, so maybe be she pretended to hypnotize them or something.

That should of course go into the review then. ;-D

[catrox14]

9 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

 

Sure she did. I think it was explained away as they're so happy to see their dead loved one again that they don't question it, which is the biggest LOL moment of this ridiculously written episode, IMO. Because not one person is going to freak out when that happens?! Not one? Or maybe the ones who did that, just left her office thinking they were crazy. I mean what else could they do? Write a review? :-D

Competing "Supernatural Yelp" Reviews

1) Therapist was nice. Office was spotless with pretty lilies. Peaceful. 5/5 Would see my dead loved one at this therapist's office again.

2) Therapist was nice. Somehow she could appear as my dead loved one.  Maybe she's a witch. I thought it was kind of weird but shit, I've been so miserable and I didn't get to say goodbye to my dead loved one, so this helps. It was a weirdly clean office, as though cleaned by bleach everyday. I might go again if I was  depressed and sad, but not sure I could fully recommend because she wouldn't let me use the bathroom and I had to pee really bad after seeing my dead loved one.   Anyway 3/5,

3) This is kind of a long review. Hope it helps. 

I went to this therapist with my not!Brothers, D & S. We have a weird family dynamic because I'm basically not!adopted and my not!Dad (C)  was murdered by my birth Dad (L) according to everyone and my mom died giving birth to me.

Anyway, I didn't think that therapist was fair to all of us.

D has had a really hard time because he was my not!Dad's best friend for 9 years. He seemed really attached to him and I think he has a broken heart.  I think I remind him of C and he holds me responsible for C's death, because I have special powers cause my Dad was an archangel. TBH, it kind of pisses me off because I don't even know why I look like C when the guy that my mom was in love with and had sex with, doesn't look like him at all. I mean I did a quick google search and learned how human reproduction works, so I'm not really sure I get why I don't look like that guy I saw in her mind. Oh that's a power I have cause I'm a nephilim. (I should probably look up that guy one day).

Anyway, my birth Dad killed my not!Dad which is why my not!brother seems to hate me and says he would kill me if I go dark side.. The therapist thinks I'm afraid of him, but I'm not and I think he knows this but he's trying to be protective of other people if I hurt anyone (else) even accidentally. I kind of wanted her to think I was afraid of him, because he's pissing me off.

S is nice to me but he also just makes me use my powers. He finally told me why he was doing that. He misses his mother and wants to save her from another place that she got trapped in with L. D thinks she's dead and S doesn't. I get it. He misses her. I did think it was weird neither he nor the therapist offered to appear as his mom to give him some closure. He was upset at having to say good bye to her again, so I don't know why he wouldn't have just taken the moment to talk to her again, like I did with my mom.

Anyway, back to the therapist. She was nice, but she's also a monster who maybe only cared about herself. I don't know why I even wanted to talk to my mom again because she didn't tell me anything different than in the video she left me. I mean I felt good kind of but I don't think it mattered cause my mom is still dead. And I did see her body after she gave birth to me. I dunno maybe I'll feel better later, but right now I dunno, not sure I would go again 2/5.

[gonzosgirrl]

@catrox14 Bravo! LOL!

One little edit:

I went to this therapist with my not!Brothers, D & S. We have a weird family dynamic because I'm basically not!adopted and my not!Dad (C)  was murdered by my birth Dad (L) according to everyone and my mom died giving birth to me. Last week.

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

@catrox14 Bravo! LOL!

One little edit:

I went to this therapist with my not!Brothers, D & S. We have a weird family dynamic because I'm basically not!adopted and my not!Dad (C)  was murdered by my birth Dad (L) according to everyone and my mom died giving birth to me. Last week.

Fair point! LOLOLOL. That made it better.

[DittyDotDot]

2 hours ago, takalotti said:

Well, I don’t think she does it like that. She just did that with Jack because he knew.

 

In the little flashes they’d showed of her appearing to other patients, it seemed to be in their houses, not her office.

I assumed she did the changing in the bathroom and the "therapy" in the adjoining room. I'm guessing she didn't offer this therapy to just anyone--nor probably offered it on their first session--I'm guessing she built up a certain amount of trust with the patients before she offered this service. So, I'm also guessing she properly prepared them ahead of time, too. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

But, she did say something about them thinking it was hypnosis, so maybe she pretended to hypnotize them or something.

That makes sense.  And would give her an 'out' if they freaked out about it seeming too 'real'. 

[catrox14]

So do you think shifter therapists have therapists? I think of The Sopranos with Tony's therapist seeking therapy to deal with Tony.  Do they go to other shifter therapists?

[Jynnan tonnix]

22 hours ago, takalotti said:

Well, I don’t think she does it like that. She just did that with Jack because he knew.

 

In the little flashes they’d showed of her appearing to other patients, it seemed to be in their houses, not her office.

But wouldn't that entail having to travel in her assumed identity, if "Mia" is already an assumed identity that she has to shed before taking on another one? Or can they "layer" personas? Wouldn't that get bulky? What if a neighbor spotted them going to the patient's home, as happened with the killer shifter in this episode? That could get awkward. 

It would be a lot easier if the shifters were more like the ones they used to have in the X-Files, which just sort of shimmered and changed. 

[DittyDotDot]

3 minutes ago, Jynnan tonnix said:

But wouldn't that entail having to travel in her assumed identity, if "Mia" is already an assumed identity that she has to shed before taking on another one? Or can they "layer" personas? Wouldn't that get bulky? What if a neighbor spotted them going to the patient's home, as happened with the killer shifter in this episode? That could get awkward. 

I think they just grow the new skin when they want. So, she would go into the bathroom, shift into a dead loved one, come out and let the loved one say goodbye, then she would go back into the bathroom and shift back into Mia.  I don't think she was walking around town as anyone other than Mia. And, I don't think she was taking on the personas of the people she was shifting into--like how the shifter in S1 was downloading Dean's memories--only their shape. Even with Jack, she looked like Kelly, but seemed to be, personality-wise, Mia. 

As to what she was doing with the skin and stuff? It was in a bathtub...a little lye and you could just wash it all down the drain. ;)

[Katy M]

24 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I think they just grow the new skin when they want. So, she would go into the bathroom, shift into a dead loved one, come out and let the loved one say goodbye, then she would go back into the bathroom and shift back into Mia.  I don't think she was walking around town as anyone other than Mia. And, I don't think she was taking on the personas of the people she was shifting into--like how the shifter in S1 was downloading Dean's memories--only their shape. Even with Jack, she looked like Kelly, but seemed to be, personality-wise, Mia. 

As to what she was doing with the skin and stuff? It was in a bathtub...a little lye and you could just wash it all down the drain. ;)

I think in Skin, they said the original still had to be alive to download their memories, so no, I think she just looked like them, also.

Maybe she has some kind of special garbage disposal in her bathtub.

[takalotti]

28 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Maybe she has some kind of special garbage disposal in her bathtub.

I’m dying! ???

[catrox14]

52 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Maybe she has some kind of special garbage disposal in her bathtub.

In-Shifter-ator,

[Pondlass1]

1 hour ago, Jynnan tonnix said:

shifters were more like the ones they used to have in the X-Files, which just sort of shimmered and changed. 

In the episode with Magnus the shifter just shifted, no skin and bloody goo or anything.  Much more practical than leaving piles of skin everywhere.

[Wayward Son]

12 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

In the episode with Magnus the shifter just shifted, no skin and bloody goo or anything.  Much more practical than leaving piles of skin everywhere.

And so did the shifter from Bloodlines along with the alpha from Two and a Half Men! 

 

I have the headcanon that shifters that can do so without shredding are the shifter equivalent of true wolves i.e they’re within four generations of the alpha shifter! This is purely head canon, but it makes the non shredding shifters fit within the lore of the show.

[Katy M]

14 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

In the episode with Magnus the shifter just shifted, no skin and bloody goo or anything.  Much more practical than leaving piles of skin everywhere.

Yes, and very nice (and ridiculous) for your clothes to change at the same time.  Don't even get me started on that.

 

1 minute ago, Wayward Son said:

 

I have the headcanon that shifters that can do so without shredding are the shifter equivalent of true wolves i.e they’re within four generations of the alpha shifter! This is purely head canon, but it makes the non shredding shifters fit within the lore of the show.

I would be OK with that if it weren't for their clothes changing also.  Clothes aren't actually part of the body.  I know. I'm ridiculously obsessed about that, but it's definitely in the top 10 of things that bug me in Superntural.   Probably the top 5. 

[catrox14]

9 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

In the episode with Magnus the shifter just shifted, no skin and bloody goo or anything.  Much more practical than leaving piles of skin everywhere.

I always hated the Insta-Shifter.  The shifter in Skin was shown to be  mentally damaged, broken, emotional wrecks.  It was an ugly, messy process that matched their ugly messy existences and I always liked that symbolism.

[Pondlass1]

Buffy staked the vampire and it turned to dust.. How come there wasn't a pile of clothes left? Lol

[DittyDotDot]

22 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Yes, and very nice (and ridiculous) for your clothes to change at the same time.  Don't even get me started on that.

 

I would be OK with that if it weren't for their clothes changing also.  Clothes aren't actually part of the body.  I know. I'm ridiculously obsessed about that, but it's definitely in the top 10 of things that bug me in Superntural.   Probably the top 5. 

And, originally, they didn't shift their clothes. The shifter in Skin had broken into these houses earlier and stolen clothing and such. I know different shifters seem to have slightly different abilities, but the clothes thing is a definite DOH! moment for me. 

[catrox14]

16 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

And, originally, they didn't shift their clothes. The shifter in Skin had broken into these houses earlier and stolen clothing and such. I know different shifters seem to have slightly different abilities, but the clothes thing is a definite DOH! moment for me. 

Dean's shifter took his clothes or at least his top two layers.

[Katy M]

27 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Dean's shifter took his clothes or at least his top two layers.

Assuming you mean in Skin, yes, and I liked that  attention to detail. But, Alpha shifter, just automatically was wearing Samuel's, Sam's, and finally Dean's clothes when he auto-shifted.  I think the leviathans did the same thing in Slash Fiction when they switched from the cops back into Sam and Dean. It's really ridiculously annoying.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

On November 2, 2017 at 9:24 PM, catrox14 said:

I can't figure out why angels and demons go to the same place. That doesn't make any sense to me.

Because demons were originally corrupted by Lucifer, and Lucifer was an angel?

The real plot hole is that if angels always go to the Empty when they die, Cas should have gone there the first time he was killed, before God resurrected him. Yet God supposedly has no power over the Empty.

12 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

Buffy staked the vampire and it turned to dust.. How come there wasn't a pile of clothes left? Lol

That was consistent, though. The clothes vampires are wearing always turned to dust with them. Xander even commented on not wanting Spike to stake himself while wearing his favorite shirt.

[catrox14]

BTS from 13.04

 

[takalotti]

FWIW, when I chime in this late after an episode, I do make sure I read all the posts so I do my best not to repeat much that’s already been discussed.

 

So in the opening, the guy comes home, sees his dead wife, and says "No. How? You’re ... dead." But later we learn that he already saw an "apparition" of his dead wife by the shifter therapist. So why does he find it so hard to believe that he’s seeing her this second time? Was it because the first time he was "under hypnosis" so he believed what he was seeing was just his subconscious giving him a vision? I just don’t like it when tv shows and movies give misleading reactions that don’t work once you know what’s really going on.

 

For the most part I liked Sam's response when Jack called him out on using him. The best part was "If this doesn’t work, if that can’t happen, that’s okay. Because I do care about you." What I didn’t like is that Sam didn’t mention that Lucifer is also in this other world on the other side of the door he’s hoping Jack can open. That needs to be disclosed to Jack so he can make an informed decision about if he wants to try to figure out how to do it. Or is Sam afraid of how that knowledge would play into Jack's motivation? (Either refusing to rescue Mary because he’s scared of how evil Lucifer is, or starting to sympathize with Lucifer and wanting to free him.) I don’t think Sam is that conniving, but he might not be doing it on purpose. Then again, it’s frustrating to see Sam leave out this key piece of info in a conversation that includes the words "I should've told you. I’m sorry."

 

When the shifter was being Scotty, the little boy, how was he in the car without being noticed by his mom until he decided to sit up? I don’t think he was small enough to fit under any of the seats. So all he could do was hunker down in the footwell, but wouldn’t she have seen him or at least noticed him getting up onto the seat? I don’t know. Again, I don't like the show misleading us with the feel of a ghost appearing out of nowhere but then on rewatch the logistics of it being a shifter doesn’t necessarily work.

 

I just see Dean ordering Jack around as Dean being a bit of a brat. "I don’t like being on a hunt with him, so I’m not gonna make this pleasant for anyone." I don’t happen to see it as something deeper like "I'm going to emulate Dad despite the fact that Dad's ways weren’t that good" or "I’m actually trying to test him and see how he does." 

 

By the way, how backwards was the whole thing with sending Jack to the hotdog stand? Dean's entire position on Jack so far has been "Let's keep him in the bunker where the only people he can hurt are me and Sam" and "If he’s in the bunker then that means he’s not out there doing God knows what." And now it’s "I’ll send him across the street to interact with other people and hope no one accidentally bumps him or yells at him for being clueless, setting off one of his nephil tantrums." Yes, writers, this totally makes sense.

 

When they were walking up to Mia's house...

Me: Haha! Dean has to go to therapy!

Because seriously, that boy has needed therapy since he was 4. Unfortunately I don’t think he actually got anything out of it, though hearing something real from Sam was kinda worth it. I did read all the comments about how Sam's admission doesn’t make much sense, and they’re right, but I didn’t really need it to make sense. For me, the point was for both Dean and Sam to talk about their emotional states and have their eyes opened by hearing the other's emotional state, so I was good with it. Maybe that makes me a lazy viewer, I don’t know.

 

I did think it was funny how much "textbook psychology" was in Sam's wording with Mia. So perfectly Sam.

 

Does anyone remember how Sam reacted to shed shifter skin in the past? He seemed super squicked out by it here and I just thought that was odd.

 

So in some earlier posts I said that Mia wasn’t in her office when she appeared to her patients as their dead loved ones. I thought she was appearing at their homes, so the patients wouldn’t have connected her to it. But on rewatch, that little flashback with Wes does look a lot like her office. So yeah, I don’t know. I still love the bathtub garbage disposal idea.

 

 

When Cas was just calling out "Hello?" into the void of the Empty, I was expecting things to play out very differently. I was expecting something a little more haunting. Like being alone in the dark but times infinity. Since I know that wouldn’t be exciting after a while, I thought the way Cas would get out would be more along the lines of Jack or Cas realizing there was some sort of psychic link between them and using that, or seeing if there was a similar link between Cas and the boys. Perhaps some instances of Cas hearing any of them (I don’t know why, maybe just when they talk about Cas) and desperately trying to call out back to them but not being heard at first. Like the equivalent of seeing Cas screaming and banging on glass behind the boys but going unnoticed. And then finally he’d get through, they’d realize he was alive but trapped, and they needed to figure out how to free him.

 

But obviously that’s not what we got at all. This was a lot weirder. I can appreciate what they were trying to do, a bit, but I didn’t like it just because I could feel how hard they were trying, if that makes sense. It didn’t help that EmptyCas pushing Cas down to his knees made my juvenile side giggle and took me out of the scene.

 

Even as a Destiel Shipper (well, actually a Destiel Realist which means I know Destiel does not and will never exist on the show and I’m okay with that, I'm fine with it only existing in fantasyland, and I enjoy most of the winks/nods we get) I thought Castiel first talking about Sam and Dean needing him and not at all about Jack, when he supposedly feels fatherly responsibility/duty for Jack, was super odd and out of place. Couple that with the Empty's line about "I know who you love" and I was just taken out of the scene for how forced it felt. If those were supposed to be winks or nods, they were not good ones.

 

When EmptyCas said "There is nothing for you back there. No. Here, let me show you" I was expecting some sort of future vision about what he believed (or wanted Cas to believe) Cas would be in for if he went back. But it was just flashbacks of Cas' worst times on Earth so far. I’m not really sure how that demonstrates there’s nothing for him back there. 

 

I didn’t think about the possibility that maybe that was EmptyCas and not our Cas at the end until I read this thread. I was actually wondering where Cas woke up. Earth? AU? (No, not sepia). Some other world or realm? Another time? But the idea that it’s EmptyCas is interesting. The memory download and appearing like Cas to us does work as a set up for that. And the way he reverently touched the grass and basked in the sun could either be Cas being so glad to be back, appreciating little things he took for granted before, or it could be EmptyCas experiencing Earth (just out of curiosity?) for the first time and realizing that this is better than Nothingness. I’m curious to see how this plays out.

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, takalotti said:

So in the opening, the guy comes home, sees his dead wife, and says "No. How? You’re ... dead." But later we learn that he already saw an "apparition" of his dead wife by the shifter therapist. So why does he find it so hard to believe that he’s seeing her this second time? Was it because the first time he was "under hypnosis" so he believed what he was seeing was just his subconscious giving him a vision? I just don’t like it when tv shows and movies give misleading reactions that don’t work once you know what’s really going on.

Yes, your hypnosis thing is right. There was nobody hypnotizing him at his house, so he didn't know how he was seeing her.

[DittyDotDot]

5 hours ago, takalotti said:

So in the opening, the guy comes home, sees his dead wife, and says "No. How? You’re ... dead." But later we learn that he already saw an "apparition" of his dead wife by the shifter therapist. So why does he find it so hard to believe that he’s seeing her this second time? Was it because the first time he was "under hypnosis" so he believed what he was seeing was just his subconscious giving him a vision? I just don’t like it when tv shows and movies give misleading reactions that don’t work once you know what’s really going on.

I'm not sure what you mean by hypnotized...did she hypnotize her patients? I'd think that would negate the therapeutic value, but the whole therapeutic notion of it all was pretty bonkers anyway, so...

Anyhoo, I'd imagine the therapist was very clear that the loved one wasn't back from the dead for good and seeing them to say goodbye was a one-time only deal and it would only happen in her "special" therapy room. So, I'd guess seeing his wife both for the second time and in their own home would be unexpected and shocking.

5 hours ago, takalotti said:

For the most part I liked Sam's response when Jack called him out on using him. The best part was "If this doesn’t work, if that can’t happen, that’s okay. Because I do care about you." What I didn’t like is that Sam didn’t mention that Lucifer is also in this other world on the other side of the door he’s hoping Jack can open. That needs to be disclosed to Jack so he can make an informed decision about if he wants to try to figure out how to do it. Or is Sam afraid of how that knowledge would play into Jack's motivation? (Either refusing to rescue Mary because he’s scared of how evil Lucifer is, or starting to sympathize with Lucifer and wanting to free him.) I don’t think Sam is that conniving, but he might not be doing it on purpose. Then again, it’s frustrating to see Sam leave out this key piece of info in a conversation that includes the words "I should've told you. I’m sorry."

I got the impression Sam was trying to just not talk about Lucifer much at all with Jack yet. Sam doesn't want to make Lucifer sound too intriguing to Jack, but also you never want to come right out and try to "condition" a kid about a missing parent. Most kids will figure it out on their own and you telling them their parent is bad usually just makes them want to get to know them and see what's what for themselves. So, I just figured Sam just didn't want to kick over a hornets nest and decided to just steer clear of the Lucifer subject altogether for the time being. Eventually, Jack will need someone to fill in the blanks so he can make his own decision, but deciding when it's appropriate for a kid to have that information can be very tricky.

5 hours ago, takalotti said:

Does anyone remember how Sam reacted to shed shifter skin in the past? He seemed super squicked out by it here and I just thought that was odd.

I think they've both always been pretty grossed out by the gooey leftovers in the past. Seems like there's always been a certain level of gross to their reactions, anyway.

[takalotti]

On 12/6/2017 at 9:17 PM, DittyDotDot said:

I'm not sure what you mean by hypnotized...did she hypnotize her patients? I'd think that would negate the therapeutic value, but the whole therapeutic notion of it all was pretty bonkers anyway, so...

Oh, no I didn’t mean she really hypnotized them. I was just referring to when Sam asked Mia about how her patients accepted her appearing as their dead loved ones and she said "They chalk it up to hypnotism, a lucid dream..."

So I was just guessing maybe he believed he was under hypnosis when he saw his dead wife the first time, to try to explain why he’d say "But you’re dead" the second time. I really need to stop trying to make sense of this stuff.

 

On 12/6/2017 at 9:17 PM, DittyDotDot said:

I got the impression Sam was trying to just not talk about Lucifer much at all with Jack yet. Sam doesn't want to make Lucifer sound too intriguing to Jack, but also you never want to come right out and try to "condition" a kid about a missing parent. Most kids will figure it out on their own and you telling them their parent is bad usually just makes them want to get to know them and see what's what for themselves. So, I just figured Sam just didn't want to kick over a hornets nest and decided to just steer clear of the Lucifer subject altogether for the time being. Eventually, Jack will need someone to fill in the blanks so he can make his own decision, but deciding when it's appropriate for a kid to have that information can be very tricky.

I guess. But didn’t they already tell him Lucifer was a bad guy? I’m thinking in the episode in the motel with Donatello. I can’t rewatch that one anymore, though, so I can’t  support this claim, not that’s it's too important. 

Edited December 9, 2017 by takalotti

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, takalotti said:

I guess. But didn’t they already tell him Lucifer was a bad guy? I’m thinking in the episode in the motel with Donatello. 

Well, not exactly, Jack had been reading the Bible in the hotel and asked about Lucifer. Sam said Lucifer was hard to know. Which I took as Sam trying too not make Satan sound too good or bad, just insignificant in some way in order to skirt around the issue altogether.

[catrox14]

So, here's a question. Why didn't the shifter kill Dean, other than Dean can't- really-most- sincerely- no- deals- forever-die yet?

Edited December 13, 2017 by catrox14

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

So, here's a question. Why didn't the shifter kill Dean, other than Dean can't- really-most- sincerely- no- deals- forever-die yet?

Maybe he did and Billie kiboshed it. :) Then when Dean did it himself, she had to reveal herself to get him to knock it off.  

[catrox14]

32 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Maybe he did and Billie kiboshed it. :) Then when Dean did it himself, she had to reveal herself to get him to knock it off.  

Heh. That's a good thought.

[rue721]

This was a pretty fun episode! I really liked Mia, but then, I always like shifters. And I thought that Sam's complaint about losing his second chance to have a relationship with Mary was raw and well done.

That's not how Dean perceived it, but I think that Sam's perception of his (distant, nascent) relationship with Mary was pretty accurate. They were at the very, very beginning of getting to know each other and feel comfortable with each other, but they hadn't really been able to build a relationship yet. And then she was snatched away again and the "second chance" was over before it had really even begun for Sam.

I wonder what Mia shifting into images of these dead loved ones or the abusive ex killing people while posing as their loved ones were meant to be metaphors for? I don't think that anyone in this episode got closure, but I don't think that grief is really killing any of them, either. Hmm.

On 11/2/2017 at 10:23 PM, catrox14 said:

I nearly puked when they had Sam say that Dean was acting like John. FUCK THAT.  NO NO NO NO NO NO. How does Sam even HAVE that thought after ALL THIS TIME? Is Sam so screwed up still that he's projecting his unresolved stuff onto Dean and Jack?

I don't think that Sam was out of line. He was probably right that Dean continuing to be such a hardass and put the scare into Jack was just going to eventually escalate into a two-sided and counterproductive conflict between Dean and Jack. Dean can get away with it now, because Jack perceives himself as a kid and looks up to Dean as an authority figure, but it's not always going to be like that, and if Dean continues to be such a hardass it's going to cause REAL problems when Jack starts becoming a grown man and wants some authority and autonomy of his own. That's exactly the conflict that Sam and John had, and I think it made sense for him to remind Dean of a scenario that they are both *deeply* familiar with when this same kind of authoritarian behavior created problems. I don't think that Dean was trying to act parental toward Jack but I do think that he was (inadvertently) creating the same kind of dynamic between himself and Jack as existed between John and Sam.

Sam maybe does over-identify with Jack in general, but I think his read was pretty legitimate. And I do think that Dean needs to cool it. I think Dean really needs to accept that Jack is a kid, not just an enemy/monster who he can keep at arms' length indefinitely. I get where Dean is coming from, but it's too damaging to Jack to be treated like this -- and Dean needs to get out of his own head for his own sake, too.

And I think that Sam also knows that Dean is naturally pretty nurturing and warm and will be charmed by Jack's "kid-ness" if he lets himself be. I think that's why Sam wants to keep throwing them together. He knows that Dean isn't made of stone, he'll come to care about Jack as soon as he lets his guard down. The thing is that I think Dean knows that, too, which is why he's doing whatever he can to keep his guard up!

On 11/2/2017 at 10:51 PM, Katy M said:

See, this is part of the reason why it bugs me that Sam is so gung ho on getting to Mary.  He doesn't care about Adam (though to be fair maybe something happened between them in the cge that we don't know about) and he rightly didn't look for Dean when he was dead.  They also have let their father continue to be dead, not to mention Jess.  But, now, all of the sudden, he has to open up a rift to where Lucifer is to save Mary, who Dean is pretty sure is dead.  Let it go, Sam.

And, even if she's not dead, do they think she's going to be standing by the door in the same place?  So, not only are they going to have to open a portal, they're going to have to leave it open. Or open it twice anyway.

Good points....!

I think it's that Mary showed up and it seemed like there was going to be this miraculous second chance for Sam to have a mother, but then she was gone again before that second chance actually came to fruition at all. Nothing was resolved. I think Sam feels like, "that can't be it! that can't be all there is to that story!"

Also, to be fair, Mary is not necessarily dead whereas all the others are.

But I agree that the logistics are against them. Realistically, Mary is going to have to figure out a way to punch her way out of the UnWorld and save herself. I guess in this scenario, Mary is Conner from Angel, not Jack :P

On 11/5/2017 at 10:11 PM, Jeddah said:

Hmmm. This could lead down a rabbit hole. Is there a separate Empty for each universe? What if someone from our World, like Crowley, dies in the AU? Which Empty do they go to? Since Lucifer in that AU was killed by Michael, is there already one Lucifer in the Empty? I'm sure I'm putting way more thought into this than the writers did.

I think The Empty is a place of entropy, so the souls/grace/whatever of all these beings that have died are now just atoms/energy that don't actually go "poof!" and disappear, but that are instead split up and floating around chaotically like grains of sugar dissolved into tea. I think that that's the state that Not!Cas was calling, "sleep" -- the little bits that made them them are all floating around, chaotic and disconnected, so the "sleeping" being don't exist as individuals but their energy is still around per se. When Cas "woke up," it was like all the bits that initially made him up got pulled together and recombined. Jack called all the little energy bits that once made up Cas together when he called to Cas, and so Cas was re-formed as a discrete/whole being again. That's my idea of what happened, anyway!

On 11/7/2017 at 7:23 PM, MysteryGuest said:

Just how does she dispose of all the discarded tissue?  It can't exactly just go down the drain in the bathtub.  And I would think it would get exhausting having to constantly clean up all of the bloody handprints all over the house.  She wasn't exactly doing a bang up job with that.  There was blood on the "employees only" sign, on the stairs, all over the shower curtain, and the tub.  She must spend half her day cleaning up after herself!

I was thinking this, too! What a lot of work. I was also thinking that the extra skin and stuff could be made into great fertilizer. It would be funny if the Winchesters started being able to spot the home of a settled-down shifter by the (wonderful) state of her garden ;)

[catrox14]

Here's a question I didn't think about until I made the mistake of rewatching this episode hoping it would be better.

How can a shapeshifter shift into someone without having their DNA? Wasn't that the whole point of Shifter!Dean and the shifters in Nightshifter and the shifter in Monster Movie and even the baby shifters in s7?  Maybe I missed something but how did she accomplish shifting into dead people without something of theirs to build her new body into?  Is this a stupid remnant of the shitty insta shifters in Bloodlines? 

[BabySpinach]

What sticks in my craw the most is how Mia immediately took clear a clear side against Dean. Equally infuriating was her "can you blame him?" comment when Dean said that Sam hadn't called him. Like, really, lady? If your goal is to make someone you barely know feel like shit, maybe you shouldn't be a therapist. It just came out of nowhere, in the middle of a dangerous situation that had nothing to do with Sam and Dean's issues. 

I also rewatched this recently and those moments were still irritating. I hate it when the show is clearly pushing a certain agenda and viewpoint and compromising characters to do it. Mia was NOT a good therapist. It wasn't her place to take sides and chide and shame ie. "You just upset your brother so much he had to leave the room." Uh, okay? So Sam was just a passive victim to his mean older brother and hadn't also spouted a bunch of unfair and inaccurate assertions?

[Katy M]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Here's a question I didn't think about until I made the mistake of rewatching this episode hoping it would be better.

How can a shapeshifter shift into someone without having their DNA? Wasn't that the whole point of Shifter!Dean and the shifters in Nightshifter and the shifter in Monster Movie and even the baby shifters in s7?  Maybe I missed something but how did she accomplish shifting into dead people without something of theirs to build her new body into?  Is this a stupid remnant of the shitty insta shifters in Bloodlines? 

The shifter in Monster Movie most definitely did not have DNA from the movie poster Lucy.  And, the baby shifter in 2 1/2 men most definitely did not have DNA from the baby on the diaper box.

[ahrtee]

2 hours ago, Katy M said:

The shifter in Monster Movie most definitely did not have DNA from the movie poster Lucy.  And, the baby shifter in 2 1/2 men most definitely did not have DNA from the baby on the diaper box.

I think the Leviathan needed DNA to copy someone.  Shifters don't, especially if they're not becoming a particular person but just want to look like someone/thing.  But in Skin (and Nightshifter, I think), they needed some contact with the original in order to know their thoughts/mannerisms in order to fool people into thinking they were them.