S13.E04: The Big Empty

[Diane]

THE LONG WAY HOME - When multiple patients of grief counselor Mia Vallens (guest star Rukiya Bernard) turn up dead, Sam (Jared Padalecki), Dean (Jensen Ackles) and Jack (Alexander Calvert) investigate the mystery surrounding the murders and, each inadvertently, are forced to deal with unresolved grief of their own. Writer: Meredith Glynn, Director: John Badham

[catrox14]

Edited November 2, 2017 by catrox14

[Whimsy]

Hey, guys.  A reminder for the oldies and a notice for the newbies- there's no posting until the episodes end. 

Besides, of course, @catrox14's weekly "Thursday" post. Those are tradition. 

I'm locking this because there's been a bit too much chatter before the show has ended.  I won't always remember, so I count on you to please follow the rules. 

Thanks!

[catrox14]

Called it. Called that Cas would see his doppelganger. Pretty sure his doppelganger got out and not Cas.

As for the rest of this episode.

Garbage.

[Jediknight]

Jack's a fan of Clone Wars, good kid.  And he likes Ahsoko, while not liking Anakin.  But I fear for the Supernatural world when he gets to the Fives uncovering the Order 66 conspiracy arc in season 6.  He's going to be pissed and sad after that.  Screw you Palpatine!

[Hanahope]

Guess Cas is back.  That didn’t take long and we didn’t see anything of the great nothing. Seemed too easy too.  Maybe it is the doppelgänger.

That was nice for Jack to get some closure.  Yes, some monsters can do good.  Maybe Dean is finally learning that.  

The writers will do something about Jack and his powers or it’ll be too easy for the boys.

[Lady Calypso]

I really liked this episode. I thought it was pretty good because it focused on characters I actually care about. It dealt with Sam, Dean, and Jack's different ways of grieving, and I understood all of them. I love that they got to mention Sam's loss of a relationship with Mary, even last season. I think the show often forgets about this because of Dean's baggage with Mary, so when they do mention it, which feels rare, I enjoy it. But we also got to look at Dean's grief. He's responding through anger. He might be reasonable in not trusting Jack, but he also has been cruel toward him, even by him just existing, which is wrong. I've said this on another forum this week about another character, but I can empathize, sympathize, and understand completely with a character, but also acknowledge that some of their actions are wrong and that they're being a dick. 

So, in this sense, I can see Dean's point of view and also see that him and Sam have been wrong in their actions with their grief. Sam has thrown himself into basically using Jack but also somewhat saving him, because he reminds him of himself. His needs for Jack are mostly to bring back their mother and he hasn't actually sat down to talk with Dean about what's happened in the last couple of weeks. It's a short amount of time to go through losing their mom and not knowing if she's alive, as well as losing Cas and thinking that he's not coming back. So, each boy is throwing themselves into distractions and avoiding their issues. 

Honestly, I was wondering when Dean and Sam would find a different way to deal with their issues, even a temporary one. I can't recall if they've ever tried therapy; it's been 13 seasons so I can't remember all.

Though, after 13 seasons, you'd think we wouldn't be going through this. 

Jack is also dealing with a lot, so I don't mind he got his own opportunity to deal with his issues, like seeing his mother. I like that his powers didn't activate just because of Dean, as that relationship is strained still, but it was a combination of Dean's speech and Sam's life being in danger. I am hoping for Jack/Dean to talk things out.

I liked the Cas subplot. Evil British DoppelCas was a lot of fun, even if I wasn't fond of the accent. I'd really like it to be Real!Cas, but obviously they'll pull a lame twist like it being the doppelganger. 

[bettername2come]

I'm really happy I finally got my good shapeshifter that I've been wanting for ten years. And thought Jared did a great job in that first conversation with Jack with his unshed tears. And I liked his point about Mom having a stronger relationship with Dean, since we did see her holding back with Sam. Overall, though, meh.

[Katy M]

I thought the Big Empty was beyond lame.  Everybody's asleep.  Cas gets kicked out because he's annoying.  Wait, actually that does make sense.

I liked the rest of the epi, though.  I called shapeshfiter in the teaser, so I don't know what took Sam and Dean so long on that.  They must have been really distracted.

I don't think talking to a dead person look alike would be all that cathartic, but I've  obviously never tried it so what do I know.  NIce to see a nice shapeshifter.  And apparently shapeshifters can't recognize each other as such.  That's interesting to know.

And, I don't care if Mary is dead or alive you guys.  You do NOT reopen that portal with Lucifer there, too.  Have we learned nothing?  NOthing?  

[MysteryGuest]

I thought the monster of the week was a bit weak, but I was happy with the progress made between Sam, Dean and Jack.  I prefer the show when they're not at odds.  They both still have issues to resolve, but at least they're talking.  I still don't know what to make of Jack.  From all appearances, he seems to be good, but I have a sneaking suspicion that as soon as we let our guard down, something bad is going to happen.  I guess we'll have to wait and see.

I don't know what to think about Cas.  When that thing was coming out of what looked like a black sea, it looked like it had breasts.  I immediately thought it was going to be Billie, but wasn't too shocked that it took Cas' form.  I wonder if we'll learn who it was or if Cas even knew.  As to whether it's our Cas or some variation, I'm not sure what to think.  Maybe they morphed together?

[Katy M]

Maybe I'm a moron (OK, no maybe about that), but I think Cas is going to be Cas.  That other thing just wanted to sleep.  Unless he had a radical personality change in the last 5 minutes there was really no reason for him to come down here.

[Mulva]

I loved this episode.  It's good to see Sam express his emotions for once.  Jack is adorable.

[Lady Calypso]

2 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

 I still don't know what to make of Jack.  From all appearances, he seems to be good, but I have a sneaking suspicion that as soon as we let our guard down, something bad is going to happen.  I guess we'll have to wait and see.

I think he means to be good, and he's honest about trying, but we will see him slip to the evil side at some point because TV shows never deviate from the typical tropes. 

[gonzosgirrl]

The one semi-Dean-friendly writer on staff drank the Dabb koolaid. They didn't just throw him under the bus with over-the-top writing, they made him apologize and yet again say that he's a dick, on screen. I have nothing good to say about the episode except it's over. Andrew Dabb is the worst thing to ever happen to Dean Winchester and his fans.

[Katy M]

I thought the shifter therapist looked familiar.  she was Camille in The Mentalists.    

I knew what else I wanted to say.  If some psycho tells you that you have to kill someone else, or he will kill you and he is offering you a gun to do the killing, you say "sure," and then you shoot him.  Unless she was supposed to kill them some other way.  I kind of got the feeling if she said yes, he was just going to hand her the gun.  Making them both idiots.

[Jeddah]

“Sam’s plans don’t always work out.”  Very, very true.

What was going on with the doppelgänger? What was that voice?! What was Misha going for there? I hope the Cas who showed up on Earth really is our Cas.

So that’s the Empty. Is Azazel there?  

[Katy M]

Just now, Jeddah said:

“Sam’s plans don’t always work out.”  Very, very true.

What was going on with the doppelgänger? What was that voice?! What was Misha going for there? I hope the Cas who showed up on Earth really is our Cas.

So that’s the Empty. Is Azazel there?  

I don't know what was up with the voice, but, honestly, I thought Misha did a really good job of creating a character we haven't seen before.  And he's played Cas, Jimmy, Lucifer, SuperLeviathan, and Crazy Cas.  So, probably not easy to come up with something different.

Yep, Azazel is there.  He said every angel and demon who died.  So, Azazel, Alistair, Crowley, Zachariah, Raphael, GAbriel, Azazel's son, Rachel, Hester, Hannah, Meg, Ruby, Ramael, Dagon, accountant angel, suicide demon.  Oh, the missed opportunity for at least a couple of them to be woken up by all that noise.

[catrox14]

I legitimately do not understand the writing of Sam here. He's pissed that Dean had a relationship with Mary when she came back? What relationship? Playing WWF? Barely showing Dean any affection at all?

Dabb/Merecuda were trying to play it that somehow Dean had this big connection with Mary when she came back and that is not what happened at all. Was this supposed to 34 years of Sam's latent envy that Dean had 4 years with Mary that he didn't? Sam was resolved with Mary's death in s1.

Are they suggesting that Dean was somehow bogarted  Mary when she came back and yet Dean was the one that was upset about her lack of communication and Sam was all "Just let her be her". WTF?

5 minutes ago, Jeddah said:

So that’s the Empty. Is Azazel there?  

It does leave room. I can't figure out why angels and demons go to the same place. That doesn't make any sense to me.

I liked Misha's acting but the voice was weird.

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

I legitimately do not understand the writing of Sam here. He's pissed that Dean had a relationship with Mary when she came back? What relationship? Playing WWF? Barely showing Dean any affection at all?

Dabb/Merecuda were trying to play it that somehow Dean had this big connection with Mary when she came back and that is not what happened at all. Was this supposed to 34 years of Sam's latent envy that Dean had 4 years with Mary that he didn't? Sam was resolved with Mary's death in s1.

Are they suggesting that Dean was somehow bogarted  Mary when she came back and yet Dean was the one that was upset about her lack of communication and Sam was all "Just let her be her". WTF?

Yes, I didn't get that either.  Mary was cold to both of them and kept them at arms length.  If Sam wanted to play WWF with mary why not send her a text, and call her. 

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

I legitimately do not understand the writing of Sam here. He's pissed that Dean had a relationship with Mary when she came back? What relationship? Playing WWF? Barely showing Dean any affection at all?

Dabb/Merecuda were trying to play it that somehow Dean had this big connection with Mary when she came back and that is not what happened at all. Was this supposed to 34 years of Sam's latent envy that Dean had 4 years with Mary that he didn't? Sam was resolved with Mary's death in s1.

Are they suggesting that Dean was somehow bogarted  Mary when she came back and yet Dean was the one that was upset about her lack of communication and Sam was all "Just let her be her". WTF?

Well, he did have to specifically call her to let her know to call him because she wouldn't be able to get hold of Dean.  But, then on the other hand, he was the one that got to go hang out with her during The Raid.  Not that was a good time.  

I do think Mary seemed more at ease with Dean than she did with Sam.  She just seemed so darned awkward around him.  I guess it was the guilt of him getting fed demon blood, but he's been over that for a while.  Or, maybe it was that Sam felt like he had to walk on eggshells around her, while he saw Dean get snarky with her and call her Mary.  I don't know.  But, I don't think the feeling is completely wrong, even if it's not completely right.  Very few of us have 100% accurate images of what is going on around us.  

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

I legitimately do not understand the writing of Sam here. He's pissed that Dean had a relationship with Mary when she came back? What relationship? Playing WWF? Barely showing Dean any affection at all?

Dabb/Merecuda were trying to play it that somehow Dean had this big connection with Mary when she came back and that is not what happened at all. Was this supposed to 34 years of Sam's latent envy that Dean had 4 years with Mary that he didn't? Sam was resolved with Mary's death in s1.

Are they suggesting that Dean was somehow bogarted  Mary when she came back and yet Dean was the one that was upset about her lack of communication and Sam was all "Just let her be her". WTF?

All of this. +1

This one is going right near the top of my most disliked episodes in 13 seasons. It edges out Red Meat - that's how much I hate it. And, Not!Cas's voice was just odd. What was the point? If it's a different entity, make it different actor. If it's part of Cas' psyche, then the voice wasn't necessary - we could've told the difference, like the two Deans in Dream A Little Dream. Weird.

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And, Not!Cas's voice was just odd. What was the point? If it's a different entity, make it different actor. If it's part of Cas' psyche, then the voice wasn't necessary - we could've told the difference, like the two Deans in Dream A Little Dream. Weird.

I never would have considered that it was Not!Cas down on earth, for the reason I mentioned above that he just wanted to sleep.  But, now you've made question that.  Even though, during the episode, I wondered to myself why the Keeper of the Empty, or whatever he was, would have to look like Cas, I promptly forgot that I wondered that.  But, you're right. There was no reason for that.  Unless they were going to pull the old switcheroo.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Well, he did have to specifically call her to let her know to call him because she wouldn't be able to get hold of Dean.  But, then on the other hand, he was the one that got to go hang out with her during The Raid.  Not that was a good time.  

Except there was no reason WHY Mary did that. I mean that isn't a relationship. That is communication. Sam's attitude implied there was so much more happening there between Dean and Mary than was ever shown. I mean how is it a measure of Dean being closer to Mary just because he FINALLY had  his say and yelled at her and kicked her out. I mean Sam could have had the same say.

That's what I don't get. I mean did Sam try to connect with her and was rebuffed? That's what I don't understand about this narrative shift. Did Mary reject him beyond her initial rejection of them both and it was never shown? I am honestly confused.

[Jeddah]

4 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Yep, Azazel is there.  He said every angel and demon who died.  So, Azazel, Alistair, Crowley, Zachariah, Raphael, GAbriel, Azazel's son, Rachel, Hester, Hannah, Meg, Ruby, Ramael, Dagon, accountant angel, suicide demon.  Oh, the missed opportunity for at least a couple of them to be woken up by all that noise.

It makes the Colt a lot less badass if all it did was put Azazel in that realm. Apparently, it’s a realm that a being can come back from if they are confrontational enough.

I agree so much about the missed opportunities!

[MysteryGuest]

8 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

The one semi-Dean-friendly writer on staff drank the Dabb koolaid. They didn't just throw him under the bus with over-the-top writing, they made him apologize and yet again say that he's a dick, on screen. I have nothing good to say about the episode except it's over. Andrew Dabb is the worst thing to ever happen to Dean Winchester and his fans.

The apology didn't really bother me.  He was being kind of a dick to Jack, and I liked seeing him acknowledge that he did a good job.  I think Sam's been kind of an ass lately, too, and while he didn't apologize, he is openly questioning himself.  I think when there's tension between the brothers it bothers Dean a bit more than it does Sam, and that's why he tends to apologize more.  I'm not saying that as a negative against either one of them, I just think it's part of their family dynamic.   

[gonzosgirrl]

7 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

The apology didn't really bother me.  He was being kind of a dick to Jack, and I liked seeing him acknowledge that he did a good job.  I think Sam's been kind of an ass lately, too, and while he didn't apologize, he is openly questioning himself.  I think when there's tension between the brothers it bothers Dean a bit more than it does Sam, and that's why he tends to apologize more.  I'm not saying that as a negative against either one of them, I just think it's part of their family dynamic.   

My problem was with the whole thing. They had Dean be so OTT that he was being a dick, instead of just justifiably grieving and short tempered. I just hate that so much - the grief had such potential but instead they just used it to enhance the Dean is a neanderthal/Sam is reasonable and mature/Jack's a fluffy muffin trope they have going. No matter what they do with it now, it's endless fodder for the Dean-is-a-dick crowd.

And Cas - I don't think there is any question it's him who's back on Earth. They are so on-the-nose with everything right now, I don't think they're capable of subtlety. No wonder it's the Empty. Cas chewed up all the scenery with that accent.

Edited November 3, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[MysteryGuest]

4 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

My problem was with the whole thing. They had Dean be so OTT that he was being a dick, instead of just justifiably grieving and short tempered. I just hate that so much - the grief had such potential but instead they just used it to enhance the Dean is a neanderthal/Sam is reasonable and mature/Jack's a fluffy muffin trope they have going. No matter what they do with it now, it's endless fodder for the Dean-is-a-dick crowd.

I just think that's how Dean has always handled his grief.  He tends to power through it, being annoying to everyone, and never acknowledging that he's hurting.  At least now he's talking.  He's even come around on Mary. He desperately wants to believe that she's still alive (which is what we've all been saying he would be feeling), but he's just numb right now.  I thought his telling Sam that he had to be hopeful for the both of them was pretty moving.  So if we're hoping for some good acting on Jensen's part while in this grief arc, I think we're getting it.  Frankly, I couldn't care less about the "Dean is a dick" crowd, since their opinion is never going to change anyway.  If that's all they're getting out of this show, then it's their loss.

[DeeDee79]

5 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Frankly, I couldn't care less about the "Dean is a dick" crowd, since their opinion is never going to change anyway.  If that's all they're getting out of this show, then it's their loss.

I haven't even watched yet but I agree with and love this statement.

[ILoveReading]

My problem is that it completely ignored the end of episode 3.  We had Dean lay his feelings bare about why it was hard for him to be around Jack.  Sam didn't care about that.  He's still trying to dictate how Dean has to be around Jack and act around Jack and when they're going to hunt.   Sam's the one acting like John here.  

Dean's arc is supposed to be grief but he's the only one who didn't get to actually get a cathartic moment in this ep.  

So where was Sam's apology for pushing Dean?

[Morrigan2575]

I really liked this episode. I thought it worked on multiple fronts. I am really starting to love Jack (which means he'll go evil ?).

I liked the Sam/Dean fight in the therapists office, it rang really true to character. I loved the Jack/'Mom' scene as well as his scenes with the therapist. I have to admit I thought we were going to find out that Buddy replaced her and had Sam tied up somewhere. 

I loved the final Sam/Dean and Dean/Jack scenes. The smile on Jack's face when Dean said he "did good". ?

On the B Storyline, I enjoyed Cas vs Cas. I like how Misha made his voice/inflection so different. I'm glad he's back, I hope the reunion with the boys comes next week.

Another thought on Jack. I loved the Clone Wars comment, Ahsoka is awesome and Anakin still sucks. I liked Samcs line about it being for the best that Jack didn't like Anakin.

[catrox14]

I nearly puked when they had Sam say that Dean was acting like John. FUCK THAT.  NO NO NO NO NO NO. How does Sam even HAVE that thought after ALL THIS TIME? Is Sam so screwed up still that he's projecting his unresolved stuff onto Dean and Jack? I mean that's the only reason I can see for him saying that. Sam you were more like John than Dean. What is up with all these false equivalencies??

JACK IS NOT DEAN and SAM'S CHILD. JFC show. Jack is literally Satan's spawn. Dean having an issue with Satan's spawn has NOTHING to do with Dean being a shitty father like John. (which Dean was NOT a shitty father as we saw with Ben and Sam) What a bunch of crap.  Sorry show just because Sam wants to manipulate Dean into helping with Jack, doesn't make it what he said true at all. Man, I'm pissed.

Edited November 3, 2017 by catrox14
Dean is not a shitty father and was not John STOP IT and he wasn't even being LIKE John arggghhh

[catrox14]

Ahhh leave it to Tippi TV to always make me laugh

Quote

tippitv

 

Empty Castiel to Regular Castiel: I know who you love!

Boy, everyone knows that

Quote

tippitv

November 2nd 2017, 5:35:38 pm · 2 hours ago

If there’s not a new smutty fic on Ao3 with Castiel/EmptyCastiel by the end of the night I’m going to be very disappointed

[MysteryGuest]

15 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

My problem is that it completely ignored the end of episode 3.  We had Dean lay his feelings bare about why it was hard for him to be around Jack.  Sam didn't care about that.  He's still trying to dictate how Dean has to be around Jack and act around Jack and when they're going to hunt.   Sam's the one acting like John here.  

Dean's arc is supposed to be grief but he's the only one who didn't get to actually get a cathartic moment in this ep.  

So where was Sam's apology for pushing Dean?

I don't think they really did ignore the end of last episode.  At the beginning of this one, things seemed more than a bit strained between Sam and Dean.  But the reality is, what are they going to do?  Dean may say that he wants to keep Jack in the Bunker permanently, but the reality of that doesn't make any sense.  And Dean was the one last week that insisted that he was going to continue hunting, regardless of what Sam was trying to do with Jack.  So if they're going to hunt, the only thing they can do is take Jack with them.  It's not ideal, I admit, but within the SPN world, I think it makes sense.  They really don't have a Plan B where Jack is concerned, even if that is Dean's preference.

Sam didn't apologize to Dean, and I don't expect he will.  Like I said, I've come around to the fact that Dean is the one who apologizes in this relationship.  Not that Sam hasn't or won't in the future, but I just think it bothers Dean more when they're at odds, so he makes the peace offering.  And I'm not insinuating that Sam doesn't care, or that he likes when they're not speaking, but as in any relationship, one person is usually more prone to apologizing.  At least that's been my experience.  And since that person is normally me, I can relate to Dean.

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, MysteryGuest said:

I don't think they really did ignore the end of last episode.  At the beginning of this one, things seemed more than a bit strained between Sam and Dean.  But the reality is, what are they going to do?  Dean may say that he wants to keep Jack in the Bunker permanently, but the reality of that doesn't make any sense.  And Dean was the one last week that insisted that he was going to continue hunting, regardless of what Sam was trying to do with Jack.  So if they're going to hunt, the only thing they can do is take Jack with them.  It's not ideal, I admit, but within the SPN world, I think it makes sense.  They really don't have a Plan B where Jack is concerned, even if that is Dean's preference.

Sam didn't apologize to Dean, and I don't expect he will.  Like I said, I've come around to the fact that Dean is the one who apologizes in this relationship.  Not that Sam hasn't or won't in the future, but I just think it bothers Dean more when they're at odds, so he makes the peace offering.  And I'm not insinuating that Sam doesn't care, or that he likes when they're not speaking, but as in any relationship, one person is usually more prone to apologizing.  At least that's been my experience.  And since that person is normally me, I can relate to Dean.

For me they did ignore it because Sam was still trying to force Dean and Jack together.   Sam decided that they shouldn't hunt last week so why is he suddenly so sgung ho.  It's coming across Sam feeling cooped up more than him being worried about Jack.   Realistically, Sam and Dean should have gone on separate hunts.  Because that's a good solution.    Dean tells Sam he can't be around Jack and Sam's solution is to put them together.

It's like it went in one ear and out the other.  I get show reasons but it still feels like Sam doesn't care about Dean's feelings on this matter.

It may be in character for Dean to apologize more but its frustrating, especially when its something Dean shouldn't feel guilty about.  He should be entitled to his feelings. 

But I feel like I'm crossing the line into bitch/Jerk so I'll leave it there.

[MysteryGuest]

One thing I will say about this season that differs from last season is that I think both Sam and Dean have been active participants in the storylines.  Last season definitely didn't feel that way to me, so this is a major improvement.  I'm sure we'll get episodes later in the season that will focus more on other characters, but I'm enjoying it so far.

[catrox14]

LOLOLOL. I don't care about Adam but this did make me laugh

[Katy M]

See, this is part of the reason why it bugs me that Sam is so gung ho on getting to Mary.  He doesn't care about Adam (though to be fair maybe something happened between them in the cge that we don't know about) and he rightly didn't look for Dean when he was dead.  They also have let their father continue to be dead, not to mention Jess.  But, now, all of the sudden, he has to open up a rift to where Lucifer is to save Mary, who Dean is pretty sure is dead.  Let it go, Sam.

And, even if she's not dead, do they think she's going to be standing by the door in the same place?  So, not only are they going to have to open a portal, they're going to have to leave it open. Or open it twice anyway.

[MysteryGuest]

1 minute ago, ILoveReading said:

For me they did ignore it because Sam was still trying to force Dean and Jack together.   Sam decided that they shouldn't hunt last week so why is he suddenly so sgung ho.  It's coming across Sam feeling cooped up more than him being worried about Jack.   Realistically, Sam and Dean should have gone on separate hunts.  Because that's a good solution.    Dean tells Sam he can't be around Jack and Sam's solution is to put them together.

It's like it went in one ear and out the other.  I get show reasons but it still feels like Sam doesn't care about Dean's feelings on this matter.

I'm not denying that Sam did this, but based on what we've been shown so far, it makes sense that Sam would continue to pressure Dean to see Jack for who he is.  As of right now, Jack has done nothing to indicate that he's evil.  And until he does, Sam is going to continue to try to convince Dean that he's good.  If the situation were reversed, and if Jack were doing bad things, Dean would be actively trying to convince Sam that they need to kill him.  

In order for the storyline to move forward, they have to compromise.  Dean said fine, bring him, but I'm not babysitting him.  He basically treated him like shit until the very end when out of desperation, he asked him to help save them.  And when Jack did, Dean acknowledged it.  For me, personally, I don't want them going off on separate hunts.  I prefer when they hunt together, but I realize that's a subjective thing.  I can only deal with the brother angst for so long.

[companionenvy]

I think the Cas who is back is definitely our Cas, and I'll be angry beyond belief if he isn't, because it would be total misdirection, and not in the good way.

1. There is no indication that vaguelyBritish!Cas wants to leave the Empty. 2. Our Cas was quite committed to leaving the empty and (most importantly) 3. The way the scene was set up, with Dean saying he didn't have faith in anything and Cas looking around with joy, strongly suggests that this is our Cas. If the show were going to pull a bait and switch, I think there would have been some indication that something was off with Cas, and I don't think we would have gotten the juxtaposition with "I don't have faith in anything right now."

I got used to Misha's other voice, but I agree with gonzogirl that it was pretty campy. I also don't like the idea that the empty is the default destination for angels and demons. Why would they both go to the same place, and why would Chuck set up the universe in this way? If they simply cease to exist -- which makes more sense -- then what is this nonsense about "waking up?" And the idea that you can escape a cosmic realm by irritating the entity in charge is just kind of bizarre. 

This is why I tend to like it when SPN goes a little smaller. 

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, MysteryGuest said:

I'm not denying that Sam did this, but based on what we've been shown so far, it makes sense that Sam would continue to pressure Dean to see Jack for who he is.  As of right now, Jack has done nothing to indicate that he's evil.  And until he does, Sam is going to continue to try to convince Dean that he's good.  If the situation were reversed, and if Jack were doing bad things, Dean would be actively trying to convince Sam that they need to kill him.  

But why doesn't Sam just leave Dean alone. As long as Dean doesn't try to kill Jack, he doesn't have to help fix him either. That is Sam's deal, not Dean's. Why does Sam INSIST on this? Why doesn't Sam just ask Dean to leave the bunker?  IMO, Sam is terrified of Dean leaving him to deal with Jack, which is exactly what Dean should have done IMO

[ILoveReading]

6 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I'm not denying that Sam did this, but based on what we've been shown so far, it makes sense that Sam would continue to pressure Dean to see Jack for who he is.  As of right now, Jack has done nothing to indicate that he's evil.  And until he does, Sam is going to continue to try to convince Dean that he's good.  If the situation were reversed, and if Jack were doing bad things, Dean would be actively trying to convince Sam that they need to kill him.  

In order for the storyline to move forward, they have to compromise.  Dean said fine, bring him, but I'm not babysitting him.  He basically treated him like shit until the very end when out of desperation, he asked him to help save them.  And when Jack did, Dean acknowledged it.  For me, personally, I don't want them going off on separate hunts.  I prefer when they hunt together, but I realize that's a subjective thing.  I can only deal with the brother angst for so long.

A better way to handle this would have been Dean saying he caught a case and leaving and Sam deciding to take Jack out and they end up on the same case.  At least that way they could have had Sam acknowledge and show some empathy and it could have played out exactly like it did but it would have showed Sam backing off.

Compromise is one thing but like last season its all on Dean's end.

We can just agree to disagree.

Edited November 3, 2017 by ILoveReading

[catrox14]

Just now, companionenvy said:

and I don't think we would have gotten the juxtaposition with "I don't have faith in anything right now."

And that's why I think it's a misdirect. It sets up Dean to be totally fooled by Empty!Cas and gutted when he finds out he wasn't who he thought he was.  I really do think that's what will happen.

[companionenvy]

I tend to agree with mysteryguest that the way Dean is treating Jack is not tenable, so Sam isn't wrong to continue pushing him on this issue. My issue is that Dean's reaction to Jack is, IMO, over the top to the point of being out of character, so the situation at this point strikes me as contrived. My longer post on the subject is in Bitch vs. Jerk. 

[ahrtee]

My first (of many) WTF moments here:  

Picture this.  Three boys (sort of) stuck in a big museum/bunker.  They've apparently been there a while.  Dean (who is apparently going stir-crazy) finds a hunt and wants to go check it out.  Sam says "we have to take Jack along" BECAUSE (here's my headdesk moment):  "it's not good for him to be cooped up here.  He needs some fresh air."  Really, Sam?  All this time and it never occurred to you before?  You never took him out for a walk, or even grocery-shopping?  Suggested he step outside?  Asked if he wanted to go out?  But *the only way to get him outside in the fresh air* is to take a totally clueless, possibly dangerous, nephilim *on a hunt*????  

More WTF moments later.  I need some aspirin now.

Edited November 3, 2017 by ahrtee
punctuation counts

[MysteryGuest]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

But why doesn't Sam just leave Dean alone. As long as Dean doesn't try to kill Jack, he doesn't have to help fix him either. That is Sam's deal, not Dean's. Why does Sam INSIST on this? Why doesn't Sam just ask Dean to leave the bunker?  IMO, Sam is terrified of Dean leaving him to deal with Jack, which is exactly what Dean should have done IMO

Because Sam and Dean, with a few short exceptions, always hunt together.  It's what they both prefer.  And Jack is the son of Lucifer and still a bit of an unknown...I don't think either one of them should be leaving the other alone with Jack at this point, really.  We've had the brothers going their separate ways a few times, and they've always come back together.  Having them try that again now would just seem like forced drama to me because ultimately, they will always stick with each other.  Just my opinion.

[ILoveReading]

14 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

I tend to agree with mysteryguest that the way Dean is treating Jack is not tenable, so Sam isn't wrong to continue pushing him on this issue. My issue is that Dean's reaction to Jack is, IMO, over the top to the point of being out of character, so the situation at this point strikes me as contrived. My longer post on the subject is in Bitch vs. Jerk. 

Sam is wrong.  Putting two people together who don't get along and trying to force them to get along is like fire and gasoline and the situation can go from bad to worse really fast. 

Sam can't force Dean to like Jack.  He could have just left Dean alone and said not to worry, he'll take full responsibility and just ask Dean to be civil.  That's compromise, not the my way or high way options Sam was presenting.  (And Sam says Dean sounds like John).

Edited November 3, 2017 by ILoveReading

[Wynne88]

I am very grateful for several things in this episode:

- I'm glad that Sam and Jack got the issue of Sam only wanting to use Jack out of the way early.

- I'm glad that the shapeshifter therapist was left alive.  

- I'm glad that Dean has hauled his anger and resentment in some (I agree with those who thought it was a little OTT).  I like it better when the brothers talk instead of yell.

There were a few things I didn't like, but I think I'll save those for another time.

[MysteryGuest]

5 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Sam is wrong.  Putting two people together who don't get along and trying to force them to get along is like fire and gasoline and the situation can go from bad to worse really fast. 

Sam can't force Dean to like Jack.  He could have just left Dean alone and said not to worry, he'll take full responsibility and just ask Dean to be civil.  That's compromise, not the my way or high way options Sam was presenting.  (And Sam says Dean sounds like John).

First off, ILOVEREADING, I hope you don't think I'm singling you out by quoting and responding to your posts so much.  I'm enjoying the conversation and your perspective, that's all.

I understand what you're saying above, but under these circumstances, I don't think they really have the luxury of just going their separate ways.  Sooner or later they need to make a determination about Jack.  Either he really is going to be a force for good, or they're going to very quickly have to try to find a way to destroy him.  And if they have any hope of possibly saving Mary, time is definitely a factor.  They've seen that world, and even if Lucifer didn't kill her immediately, her chances of surviving there for any length of time are pretty slim.  As someone who regularly rags on the writers, I will admit that they could have gotten us from point A to point B a little better, but this is what we have to work with.  In light of that, I think they've done a decent job of showing both Sam and Dean's perspectives, and not making either brother look like an idiot.  To me, that's a win.

[catrox14]

18 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Because Sam and Dean, with a few short exceptions, always hunt together.  It's what they both prefer.  And Jack is the son of Lucifer and still a bit of an unknown...I don't think either one of them should be leaving the other alone with Jack at this point, really.  We've had the brothers going their separate ways a few times, and they've always come back together.  Having them try that again now would just seem like forced drama to me because ultimately, they will always stick with each other.  Just my opinion.

Sam had no problem going out for food and leaving Dean alone with Jack. 

1 minute ago, MysteryGuest said:

 Sooner or later they need to make a determination about Jack.

But why do THEY have to make a determination about Jack. Why can't Sam just deal with Jack alone if he thinks he's so good and not likely to turn dark side?

[MysteryGuest]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Sam had no problem going out for food and leaving Dean alone with Jack. 

And Dean left Sam alone last week to go on a hunt with Jody.  I just don't think it's a good idea, personally.  This is Satan's son we're talking about.  I wish the writers wouldn't have them forget that piece of information so readily.