S07.E10: Charles (Manson) in Charge

[TimeToCancelTM]

11 hours ago, CrazyDog said:

Cielo drive was hard to watch. Loved seeing Billy back though. I really, really hope he returns. 

This season, all in all, is one of the creepiest. Real life horror beats the supernatural any day. The reality of someone like Kai rising to power is absolutely terrifying. I was also glad to see that there was reaction to his actions. Up until now, the community seemed like it was in a bubble and it was nice to see an actual challenge to his armed dudebros, the internet suppression, etc. 

EP was spot on as Manson. 

And as disturbing as the episode was, I'm glad we're seeing Kai start to unravel. But I still don't feel any sympathy for broken Beverly. She's shown no remorse until the cult turned on her.

Ally is terrifying. Will she replace Kai or just take him down?

I did enjoy the humor of all the dudes in their PJs all excited for mass murderer storytime. LOL. 

Who really is Speedwagon?

Is just me? Or was the actual sperm doner/father "speedwagon"? Someone please correct me...i was half asleep and watched 3 episodes back to back lol

[iMonrey]

Quote

 A couple things I sort of wish they included Abigail saying "i'm Already dead" and Susan telling Sharon""Look, bitch, you might as well face it right now, you're going to die, and I don't feel a thing behind it." Those were the words I thought of when Susan Atkins asked for  compassionate release before she died. I really wish they had repeated those words back to her.

Agreed. I know this show challenges good taste under the best of circumstance, but this was maybe the first time I felt a little uncomfortable with the subject matter. This was a real murder and a sick and brutal one at that - and (in my own, aged mind) not that long ago. I can't help finding the recreation somewhat distasteful and disrespectful. I much prefer when they do something "based on" a true crime with their own spin rather than a full-on interpretation of some actual horrific murder.

[Daisy head]

5 hours ago, MaggieG said:

Here's a question: when the Manson family members went into the house, did they just wander through the house and noboby noticed or said anything like it was portrayed in the show? Susan saw Abigail reading in bed and waved at her and Abigail waved back and didn't say anything, didn't ask her who she was. I read Helter Skelter many years ago (still my favorite true crime book) and I can't remember if that was described. @JennyMominFL I'm kinda jealous that you went to Cielo dr lol

This was a great episode and I liked seeing Kai unravel a bit.

This made me laugh too.

I have heard that there were always a lot of people in & out visiting the house, so no one thought it was unusual for people to just drop in.  Frequent guests were said to have been members of the Mamas & the Papas, Eric Clapton  & Warren Beatty among others.

Edited November 9, 2017 by Daisy head

[SWLinPHX]

On 11/8/2017 at 6:37 AM, luna1122 said:

And yes, I absolutely think the Night of a 1000 Tates was a call back to Evan's first season character (and still my fave).

No, not at all.  You weren't paying attention.  They said Manson failed at his goal when killing Sharon Tate and the others.  In order to be more effective in establishing public terror he would have to intensify things by killing many "Sharon Tates" (hence the phrase).

[Daisy head]

On 11/8/2017 at 2:16 PM, JennyMominFL said:

She didnt quite say squeal like a pig. It was something like squealing like little piggies... That's accurate as one of them did say something similar and they wrote death to pigs in a the LaBianca house and pigs  was written on the front door of the Tate house. They got the idea from the Beatles song Piggies. The y did a pretty good job of depicting the actual crime. A couple things I sort of wish they included Abigail saying "i'm Already dead" and Susan telling Sharon""Look, bitch, you might as well face it right now, you're going to die, and I don't feel a thing behind it." Those were the words I thought of when Susan Atkins asked for  compassionate release before she died. I really wish they had repeated those words back to her.

 

Yeah, I've spent way to much time studying this case and I've been to Cielo Drive

I SO wish they had repeated that to her as well!  Does anyone know if Gov Brown is going to deny Leslie VanHouten's release again? I hope so - NONE of them should ever see the light of day, IMO.

(I know she was not at Cielo Dr, but the LaBiancas also suffered a horrible end)

[mamadrama]

3 hours ago, SWLinPHX said:

No, not at all.  You weren't paying attention.  They said Manson failed at his goal when killing Sharon Tate and the others.  In order to be more effective in establishing public terror he would have to intensify things by killing many "Sharon Tates" (hence the phrase).

I think it was a play on words and encompassed both "Tates."

[RedheadZombie]

On ‎11‎/‎8‎/‎2017 at 6:31 AM, Spartan Girl said:

Knew Ally was the mole. She's taking out all the pawns before eliminating Kai. I loved her ripping into Winter at the beginning.

I loved the twist about Bebe being a mastermind, but it's a shame that her plan not only blew up in her face and she got killed off so soon. Never trust a misogynist to carry out a feminist cult.

The Manson family sequence was horrific, especially with the Texas church massacre fresh in my mind.

I wonder if the Bebe twist was a slap at the Susan Sarandon-types, who voted for Trump after Bernie didn't get the dem nomination, in the hopes that a "revolution" would occur.  

I didn't get that Ally was the mole.  I think it's probably Speedwagon, with Ally throwing some gas lighting in to feed Kai's paranoia.

On ‎11‎/‎8‎/‎2017 at 9:05 AM, darkestboy said:

Good use of Charles Manson. Nice that we got to see some of the actors playing different roles as part of Manson's cult. Can we please get Sarah Paulson as a villain next season?

Ally is doing to Kai what was done to her earlier in the season and it's pretty glorious to be honest.

I didn't feel bad that Winter died or that Beverly is even broken. Both of them knew what they were doing when they helped Kai ascend to power. Same with Gary and he got his too.

Speedwagon being the mole was an interesting enough move, along with Bebe masterminding Kai's cult in the first place.

Just one more to go, 8/10

I can't believe Gary couldn't see it coming.  All the other male cult members looked like alt-right members, and he really stuck out as the backwards redneck.

[LoneHaranguer]

5 hours ago, kj4ever said:

 

I love this show, but usually by the point I'm glad it's going to be over.  This season it feels like they could stretch it out a few more episodes, because I don't see how they possibly can tie this up in one episode.

Perhaps Ally will go upstairs, call the police, and say "I just found my wife and all these dead bodies at this dude's house" and be done with it.

 

I think Kai's end should be more certain. Maybe have him run over by a truck while crossing the street; camera pulls back from above to show he's alone and beyond help. If you want a different style ending, add a scene where Ally's handing somebody some keys, they say something like "I didn't expect the truck back so soon", and Ally responds "it served its purpose".

[willco]

Just finished. I know I shouldn't, but I did feel a bit sorry for Winter, even though she's as bad as the rest of them. Maybe it's because I feel of all of them, she felt the most obligation to Kai and just went along with what he wanted because he "saved" her at the horror house ? I'm not explaining it well, I'm still not sure why, but I did feel a bit sorry for her. Maybe that's the mark of a good season, it twists your emotions ?

[Stringey]

Who is now wearing ivys costume. I saw the costume during the Gary murder scene.

[Captanne]

I felt vaguely sorry for Winter until it turned out she was lying to Beverly about taking the bus ticket to Butte.  Then any sympathy was gone. (Mind you, these are fictional characters. It’s easier to write them off — literally and figuratively.)

[Stringey]

2 hours ago, Captanne said:

I felt vaguely sorry for Winter until it turned out she was lying to Beverly about taking the bus ticket to Butte.  Then any sympathy was gone. (Mind you, these are fictional characters. It’s easier to write them off — literally and figuratively.)

Wait I thought she was being true about wanting to send Beverly off. They never gave any indication she was lying. Beverly being a die hard Kai fan ratted on winter about the ticket I thought. 

[DangerousMinds]

I didn't think she was lying.

[JennyMominFL]

Sharon Tate had lunch with Joanna Petit  and Diana Lewis the day of the murders. The  4 of them went to El Coyote for dinner and then went home. SHaron was tired and wanted a quiet night. In fact Debra Tate called to see if she and their other sister Patti could spend the night. Sharon, thank god , turned them down or The Who Tate family might have been wiped out. They really did respond to their killers in the way they were depicted.  Jay really was sitting on Sharon's bed. Abigail did wave at them. 

 I went to Cielo when the house was still there. All that you could see was the gate and buzzer that had the bloody handprints. Trent Reznor of 9 Inch Nails has the front door which had the word Pigs written on it.  I think Jerry Brown will veto Leslie's release like he has for that of other Manson members 

Edited November 10, 2017 by JennyMominFL
Spell check edited Cielo to cisco

[TexasGal]

On 11/9/2017 at 1:22 PM, JuliesMommy said:

Is just me? Or was the actual sperm doner/father "speedwagon"? Someone please correct me...i was half asleep and watched 3 episodes back to back lol

I thought the same but wasn’t sure.

[Captanne]

As she handed Beverly the bus ticket, she said,  "you'll never be found in Butte."  Then Kai gave Winter a ticket to Butte (which is now a euphemism for "I kill you now") right before killing her.

Unless he was telling her he knew about the conspiracy to get Beverly out.

I took it to mean Winter had been lying to Beverly just as Beverly suspected.

Either way is valid, I think.  (But it would be nice to know the answer.  Because, we were never shown how Kai would have known, were we?)

Edited November 11, 2017 by Captanne

[Daisy head]

13 minutes ago, Captanne said:

As she handed Beverly the bus ticket, she said,  "you'll never be found in Butte."  Then Kai gave Winter a ticket to Butte (which is now a euphemism for "I kill you now") right before killing her.

Unless he was telling her he knew about the conspiracy to get Beverly out.

I took it to mean Winter had been lying to Beverly just as Beverly suspected.

Either way is valid, I think.  (But it would be nice to know the answer.  Because, we were never shown how Kai would have known, were we?)

Didn't that just mean that Beverly had told Kai that Winter had given her the ticket and suggested she escape?  I'm not understanding how that means that Winter lied to Beverly.

[Stringey]

I am curious to find out whose tombstone ally was at in the upcoming preview. Maybe something happens to Beverly. 

[Stringey]

Well the acting from evan peters was really good during the scene when he killed winter he was really crying. At one point you see a drop of water fall from his nose(and probably land on her face lol) and that happens either when you are crying or have a cold.

Edited November 11, 2017 by Stringey

[Captanne]

Did we ever see Beverly tell Kai?  

[DangerousMinds]

We didn't see her tell him, but that's what I assumed happened.

[Mr. Sparkle]

On 11/10/2017 at 1:17 PM, Stringey said:

Wait I thought she was being true about wanting to send Beverly off. They never gave any indication she was lying. Beverly being a die hard Kai fan ratted on winter about the ticket I thought. 

That was my take also. 

[LoneHaranguer]

6 hours ago, Stringey said:

Well the acting from evan peters was really good during the scene when he killed winter he was really crying. At one point you see a drop of water fall from his nose(and probably land on her face lol) and that happens either when you are crying or have a cold.

There was a reality competition called Scream Queens in which prospective actresses competed for a part in a SAW movie. One of the episodes included some quick instruction in how to cry on cue. It's not an indicator of talent.

[Stringey]

6 hours ago, LoneHaranguer said:

There was a reality competition called Scream Queens in which prospective actresses competed for a part in a SAW movie. One of the episodes included some quick instruction in how to cry on cue. It's not an indicator of talent.

Maybe not an indicator of talent but it still surprises me when people can work themselves up like that. 

[Negritude]

On 11/7/2017 at 8:32 PM, TobinAlbers said:

I swear when Kai screamed about the night of a thousand Tates I initially though he was referring to S1 Tate and that we were getting 1000 psychos like him. Has this season connected with the Horrorverse at large yet?

The only thing that comes to mind is Oz and his Twisty the clown comics and dream/imaginaging sequence of Twisty killing a couple and showing up in Oz's room if I remember correctly, at the beginning of the season.

[Terrafamilia]

"Who was this?"

"My anger management counselor."

"She wasn't very good at her job."

Ain't that the truth.

[The Real Real]

On 11/8/2017 at 2:16 PM, JennyMominFL said:

She didnt quite say squeal like a pig. It was something like squealing like little piggies... That's accurate as one of them did say something similar and they wrote death to pigs in a the LaBianca house and pigs  was written on the front door of the Tate house. They got the idea from the Beatles song Piggies. The y did a pretty good job of depicting the actual crime. A couple things I sort of wish they included Abigail saying "i'm Already dead" and Susan telling Sharon""Look, bitch, you might as well face it right now, you're going to die, and I don't feel a thing behind it." Those were the words I thought of when Susan Atkins asked for  compassionate release before she died. I really wish they had repeated those words back to her.

 

Yeah, I've spent way to much time studying this case and I've been to Cielo Drive

When one of the comes up for parole, it’s hard not to get back into that crime

i found the re-creation of the crime way too realistic...... the room where most of the murders took place looked exactly like the real crime scene. The scene stayed with me a few days.

Edited November 13, 2017 by The Real Real

[jpagan05]

The therapy session with Kai and Bebe raised the hackles on the back of my neck. It could not be more timely with all of the sexual harassment and predatory behavior that is being exposed.

[luna1122]

On ‎11‎/‎9‎/‎2017 at 3:20 PM, SWLinPHX said:

No, not at all.  You weren't paying attention.  They said Manson failed at his goal when killing Sharon Tate and the others.  In order to be more effective in establishing public terror he would have to intensify things by killing many "Sharon Tates" (hence the phrase).

Yeah, I get that. I didn't mean it was a literal comment about Tate.  But I do believe it had a double meaning, for us fans. An Easter egg, as it were.

Edited November 13, 2017 by luna1122

[Stringey]

11 hours ago, jpagan05 said:

The therapy session with Kai and Bebe raised the hackles on the back of my neck. It could not be more timely with all of the sexual harassment and predatory behavior that is being exposed.

I don't know about anybody else but I would have preferred bebes backstory to be different. It does not change my enjoyment of this season but it would have been cool if they never had any of the whole Valerie Solano stuff and instead made bebe as having been a former Manson family follower. Maybe she could have joined up with them at some point but after the killings and still after all those years still believed in mansons philosophy. The whole Valerie solanoss thing was annoying to me.

[queenanne]

On 11/8/2017 at 9:15 AM, Pixel said:

I thought Speedwagon was the mole.  And clever Ally, convincing Kai that Winter's Fitbit was a bug!

 

On 11/8/2017 at 10:42 AM, GoneGirl said:

Speedwagon was the mole, not Ally. Ally just wanted Kai to kill Winter so she used the Fitbit and the tape recorder in the ice cream truck to convince him. 

Also wondering what Ally will do with Speedwagon but I think she might kill him, he had a wire and she was speaking during the confrontation between Kai and Winter. She also had shot Bebe without even knowing who she was, and killed Ivy. Not so sure how her and Speedwagon will play out.

I thought Ally pulled out a 2-inch black rectangle thing about the length of the screen/watch-face-style portion of my own old Fitbit model, which Winter claimed as "the battery to my Fitbit" when it was brandished in front of her?  I mean, I agree overall that Speedwagon was the mole and wired, because we saw him smashing the wires against the steering wheel; but a "Fitbit battery", is not rectangular and black like the screen/face portion.  It would be a round silver button-type battery; and AFAIK, there's zero sign that a layperson could in fact open up and change a Fitbit's battery, or would feel the need to have one on hand, like it was a pre-SSDI Macbook.  So I was particularly surprised that Winter claimed it, when I didn't think it was her responsibility in the slightest and that she'd be absolutely certain to know the shape wasn't, in fact, a "Fitbit battery"... anyone else remember it going down like I do?

Edited November 14, 2017 by queenanne

[RedheadZombie]

On November 10, 2017 at 1:17 PM, Stringey said:

Wait I thought she was being true about wanting to send Beverly off. They never gave any indication she was lying. Beverly being a die hard Kai fan ratted on winter about the ticket I thought. 

I agree with you, but I don't think Bev was a die hard Kai fan. She thought she was being set up, or assumed Kai would find out and kill her. 

[Stringey]

1 hour ago, RedheadZombie said:

I agree with you, but I don't think Bev was a die hard Kai fan. She thought she was being set up, or assumed Kai would find out and kill her. 

Ahh maybe you are right.  For some reason I believed her when she told winter she would never leave and was his biggest follower. But yeah she does act completely afraid all the time so i think she might have been playing if she thought she was being set up.  You know in the finale preview for a split second you see ally in front of a gravestone but cannot read the writing. I wonder if maybe that tombstone belongs to Beverly. I cannot think of one other person ally might care about that will die. I think right now Beverly is the most sympathetic cult member.

[jpagan05]

15 hours ago, Stringey said:

I don't know about anybody else but I would have preferred bebes backstory to be different. It does not change my enjoyment of this season but it would have been cool if they never had any of the whole Valerie Solano stuff and instead made bebe as having been a former Manson family follower. Maybe she could have joined up with them at some point but after the killings and still after all those years still believed in mansons philosophy. The whole Valerie solanoss thing was annoying to me.

Agreed. It was the most arbitrary story to actually connect Bebe. But I still really enjoyed the characters. 

[TvGeek]

15 hours ago, queenanne said:

 

I thought Ally pulled out a 2-inch black rectangle thing about the length of the screen/watch-face-style portion of my own old Fitbit model, which Winter claimed as "the battery to my Fitbit" when it was brandished in front of her?  I mean, I agree overall that Speedwagon was the mole and wired, because we saw him smashing the wires against the steering wheel; but a "Fitbit battery", is not rectangular and black like the screen/face portion.  It would be a round silver button-type battery; and AFAIK, there's zero sign that a layperson could in fact open up and change a Fitbit's battery, or would feel the need to have one on hand, like it was a pre-SSDI Macbook.  So I was particularly surprised that Winter claimed it, when I didn't think it was her responsibility in the slightest and that she'd be absolutely certain to know the shape wasn't, in fact, a "Fitbit battery"... anyone else remember it going down like I do?

Actually my old fitbit flex had that battery with a ridiculous charging port.

 

Edited November 14, 2017 by Batgirl1979

[LoneHaranguer]

12 hours ago, Stringey said:

You know in the finale preview for a split second you see ally in front of a gravestone but cannot read the writing. I wonder if maybe that tombstone belongs to Beverly. I cannot think of one other person ally might care about that will die.

The first line on the gravestone, in big letters, is "IVY". The letters are a little scrunched, but recognizable when you consider the limited possibilities.

[llewis823]

24 minutes ago, LoneHaranguer said:

The first line on the gravestone, in big letters, is "IVY". The letters are a little scrunched, but recognizable when you consider the limited possibilities.

But isn't Ivy rotting away with Kai's family upstairs? Maybe if we're fast forwarding into the future, they set up a headstone for the little boy's benefit.

[Stringey]

1 hour ago, llewis823 said:

But isn't Ivy rotting away with Kai's family upstairs? Maybe if we're fast forwarding into the future, they set up a headstone for the little boy's benefit.

Oh for real???? So surprised she would give that evil woman a proper burial and visit her. I guess maybe for oz. There was probably a story concocted for oz and he would probably never know the evil nature of that mom. Then again........ he won't probably ever discover the evil nature of ally either.

[Stringey]

Just now, Stringey said:

Oh for real???? So surprised she would give that evil woman a proper burial and visit her. I guess maybe for oz. There was probably a story concocted for oz and he would probably never know the evil nature of that mom. Then again........ he won't probably ever discover the evil nature of ally either.

So here is my idea for a fantasy ending. Kai is in jail but requests to see ally and his "son". Well she shows up of  course without oz. Since she is not in jail we assume she did not get caught and no proof of her being involved in any murders. Anyway she drops the bomb that oz is not really kais son and also that he killed baby sis for nothing. The last scene would be some kind of shot of ozzy and ally in their home doing something and happy together accompanied by happy music. Happy but not cheesy or hokey. The happy music continues down a the dark night prison hallway to kais cell. We see inside his cell he has managed to find something to gash his throat wide open and he lies dead. The implication being of course that he could not live with killing winter that he falsely accused.

[LoneHaranguer]

2 hours ago, Stringey said:

Oh for real???? So surprised she would give that evil woman a proper burial and visit her.

I don't see much chance of an ending in which the bodies aren't found and hauled away by authorities, so Ivy's will get buried. Ally could be visiting to gloat.

[Stringey]

1 hour ago, LoneHaranguer said:

I don't see much chance of an ending in which the bodies aren't found and hauled away by authorities, so Ivy's will get buried. Ally could be visiting to gloat.

Yeah lol. I mean lol at the thought of her gloating on ivy

Edited November 14, 2017 by Stringey

[queenanne]

7 hours ago, Batgirl1979 said:

Actually my old fitbit flex had that battery with a ridiculous charging port.

 

Aha, thanks!  I only had the belt-loop one with the clamp and then the, I think, "Fitbit HR"?  It could've been one of the belt-loop ones that we saw if I looked too quickly, but I was kerflummoxed at the idea of a rectangular battery.

[DangerousMinds]

22 hours ago, queenanne said:

 

I thought Ally pulled out a 2-inch black rectangle thing about the length of the screen/watch-face-style portion of my own old Fitbit model, which Winter claimed as "the battery to my Fitbit" when it was brandished in front of her?  I mean, I agree overall that Speedwagon was the mole and wired, because we saw him smashing the wires against the steering wheel; but a "Fitbit battery", is not rectangular and black like the screen/face portion.  It would be a round silver button-type battery; and AFAIK, there's zero sign that a layperson could in fact open up and change a Fitbit's battery, or would feel the need to have one on hand, like it was a pre-SSDI Macbook.  So I was particularly surprised that Winter claimed it, when I didn't think it was her responsibility in the slightest and that she'd be absolutely certain to know the shape wasn't, in fact, a "Fitbit battery"... anyone else remember it going down like I do?

I thought it looked like some kind of battery, from what I saw.

[maymac]

Does anyone know the meaning of the Charles Manson’s Swastika Tattoo on His Forehead?

[Rap541]

He carved an x into his forehead during his murder trial, declaring "I am x'd out of your world" or something like that. The female followers then imitiated him. Later in prison he converted it to a swashtika, most likely to curry favor with white gang members. It has no intentional meaning in this show other than the real Charles Manson had such a scar/tattoo.