S03.E08: First Wife

[Atlanta]

Loved sweet Joan. Rereading her and Michael Murray's short story.

At first I thought Marsali was Leghair. Great casting. Bring on Father Fogden! Hee!

[thesparkinside]

Okay, another question I had, and maybe it's addressed somewhere, but . . . why do they not take a bloody boat out to the island? Why do they swim?

[nodorothyparker]

Laura Connelly's Jenny really saved this episode and elevated it from being the third one in a row where they're checking off all the boxes of doing the big scenes and the acting is there but it's not always landing with some terribly hit or miss writing.  I love that the showrunners gave her more to do than be frustrated at the way Jamie and Claire rolled back in expecting a warm welcome or send for Laoghaire.  I love that they let her voice what I've long thought about her character in these scenes: That from her perspective it's as much as about forcing the bigamy issue after they showed up in her home where her family lives with Claire still not being the wiser to avoid letting it drag on indefinitely as it is her very real misgivings about Claire being an instigator/accomplice to the ne'er do well brother she's spent decades having to clean up after.  Because Connelly so perfectly embodies her book character better than any other actor on the show for me, she was absolutely nailing that material in letting us see her utter consternation with the mess Jamie had made and raw hurt that Claire in her mind so cavalierly could have gone off and abandoned all of them without a single word for 20 years.  I do like the show at least attempting to force Claire and to a lesser extent Jamie to try to come up with believable explanations for WTH she's been rather than the hand waving and continual distraction the book tends toward.

I'm okay with most of the streamlining they did for the post-shooting events even if the staging of the shooting itself was frankly terrible to the point of looking they were doing low budget dinner theater.  But since they'd already decided to make the big reveal the most anti-climactic reveal ever by stringing it out over multiple episodes, whatever, I guess, as long as it moves the plot along.   There was something sad but entirely plausible about Jamie being clear-eyed that he basically married for replacement children and thinking maybe he could make that be enough even if his justification that it was fine that it was Laoghaire because oh, Claire once told him to make nice with her was patently ridiculous and I was a little surprised to see Claire let that go as easily as she did.  

The first isle of incredible coincidence continues to be the isle of incredible coincidence.  It's never made sense to me book or show why they didn't figure out a boat for that little adventure.  Ian was strolling down the cliff toward the shore carrying the entire chest.  Did he really intend to swim all the way back carrying it?  The actor playing young Ian seems competent enough but he's reading incredibly generic and somehow off as Ian to me.

[Nidratime]

Quote

The first isle of incredible coincidence continues to be the isle of incredible coincidence.  It's never made sense to me book or show why they didn't figure out a boat for that little adventure.  Ian was strolling down the cliff toward the shore carrying the entire chest.  Did he really intend to swim all the way back carrying it?  The actor playing young Ian seems competent enough but he's reading incredibly generic and somehow off as Ian to me.

I don't get the impression that the island is very close to Lallybroch or that Lallybroch is close to a seaside community so I wouldn't expect that they'd necessarily have a boat readily available. Remember, in the book certainly, but in the show as well, they wouldn't want to draw attention to their activities by renting a boat, fearing it would start people talking and possibly draw the British. Wasn't the island under some kind of suspicion after that "crazy" man showed up around the prison talking about a treasure? (Can't remember.)

As for Ian being able to carry the jewel box or even just the jewels and coins back from the island, I fanwanked it and decided Ian had a pouch around his body or a sling that he could place the box or its contents in, leaving his arms free to swim.

[DittyDotDot]

34 minutes ago, thesparkinside said:

Okay, another question I had, and maybe it's addressed somewhere, but . . . why do they not take a bloody boat out to the island? Why do they swim?

Well, the first time, Jamie didn't have a boat, but later? Well, in the book it seems like I remember that getting a boat to the island wasn't very easy. There was something about the currents, but Jamie had accidentally stumbled on how it was actually pretty safe to swim it if you understood the current. Plus, since they wouldn't have a boat, they would've had to beg, borrow or stole one,

Edited November 5, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[WatchrTina]

THE GOOD

Oooh that opening card (the festive table) was clever is so many ways.  We see a wee red-headed girl but we don’t know who she is.  We see a table laden with food, which seems odd in the face of all the privations we know they suffered in Scotland.  And we see the writer’s name – Joy Blake – which I am now committing to memory because this episode was extraordinarily well written.

Jamie’s hair.  ‘Nuf said.

Jenny.  Every single thing she did.  It begins with the first moment we see her, the heavy breathing and then “Never thought I’d see ye grace my front step again.”  Did you hear her say “MY” front step?  Don’t tell me that wording wasn’t deliberate.

Jamie’s finger.  Did ye see it twitching there at the end of Claire’s “welcome” by Jenny and Ian?  I think that finger speaks for all of us when it says, “Damn, that was TENSE!”

That fireplace.  OMG that open-on-four-sides fireplace.  How gorgeous is THAT.  I recollect a scene earlier this season (the one in ep 302 where Feral Jamie collapses in Jenny’s arms) where they shot THROUGH the fireplace but I thought they were just being clever – removing the “4th wall” if you will to place the camera in an impossible location.  I didn’t realize that was them taking advantage of the hearth’s design. I LOVE that.  How did I never notice it before?

I loved Ian and Jamie reconciling over their creative punishment for wee Ian.

What a stark contrast to the very next scene, the one between Jenny and Claire with all the kids.  Jenny can barely stand to look at Claire when she reminisces about the past.  “20 years” gets mentioned again.  Then Jenny rejects Claire’s offer to help with a dirty diaper, not wanting to “bewilder the bairn wi’ a strange face.” Zing.  Yeah, there is NO thaw happening in that relationship.

Jenny says to Jamie, “You’re an authority on raising bairns now?”  Damn Jenny, that was cold.  She doesn’t know about Willie and Brianna like we do and I get that she’s upset with him for lying about knowing wee Ian’s whereabouts.  Given all that we can understand where she is coming from but, damn, that was aiming below the belt given all the misfortunes she knows have contributed to his childless state.  I’m glad Jamie comes back with the line about knowing what it is like to be a 16-year-old lad that lives on a farm.  I'm also glad that he leans over the table in that slightly imposing way when he says it.  Generally speaking, Jamie gets criticized for his actions a LOT in this episode and I’m glad that he apologizes when he should but then he stands up for himself when the criticism is off-base or unreasonable.  I really like this version of Jamie.  He’s older, wiser, he takes responsibility for his actions, and he calls people out on their bullshit.  This version of Jamie was foreshadowed in ep 113 “The Watch” when he decided to stop hiding who he was and told Taran MacQuarry that he HAD gutted the Irishmen who threatened his family – and he said it while calmly buttering a biscuit.

I am greatly in danger of just repeating every line of dialog in this show – especially those uttered by Jenny.  That scene when she asks Jamie how he came to be in possession of two wives and he harkens back to how he was in the years following Culloden – you can just see the shared painful memories from that time pass between them.

Oh, and great job by the writers coming up with a plausible story for Jamie to tell as to why he had been “sure” that Claire was dead (the inn, redcoats burning the villiage, etc.).  The lack of that story is a weakness in the book.  But of course, Jenny sees through it saying, “The Claire I kent would never have stopped looking for you.”  That reaction is also realistic.

The bedroom scene between Jamie and Claire – the one where he tells her the story of having gone looking for her and the flashback that follows – that whole bit was made of win.  The best part is that it’s almost all off-book.  Virtually every word in that sequence was new and yet it was “true” to the book.  It’s also a really lovely moment between our one-true-pairing (firelight, hair down, nightgown, and an intimate story full of bravery and longing.)  Bravo!

And then that lovely, lovely moment – that tender kiss  -- is put on pause because Claire recognizes something is wrong.  The moment is set for Jamie’s confession and . . . BOOM the door flies open and a wee red-headed lass cries out “Daddy!  Who is that woman?”  I laughed.  Those wicked, tricksey, false writers strike again.  It’s not exactly like the book but it’s EXCELLENT.

Wow, that wee little red-headed actress playing Joanie was terrific.  The scene with her sitting on the stair just breaks my heart because you can SEE how Jamie’s longing for children manifested in his affection for Laoghaire’s daughters.  You can even imagine that when he saw her for the first time, her red hair reminded him of baby Faith.

OMG that hug between Jamie and Joanie – that look of pain on his face.  Heart=breaking.

I want to quote every line of that fight between Jamie and Claire.  That was SO well written (and acted) and unless I’ve forgotten a lot, it’s all new dialog.

Thank you to whoever inserted the music when Jamie kisses Claire and she slaps him.  It becomes clear VERY quickly that they are having angry but consensual sex and that Claire IS into it (especially as she winds up on top) but that musical cue helps to ensure that nobody thinks this is a sexual assault.

Ooooh, I love lie-detector Jenny (“I hear truth in what ye’re tellin’ me.  But I can see in your eyes there’s still something ye’re keepin’ from me.”

Then again, she’s not perfect as Ian rightly points out with the line, “If there’s a pot o’ shite on to boil ye stir it like it’s God’s work.”  This has to go on the top 10 list of best lines ever uttered in this show.

I do like that Laoghaire’s hand is shaking and she’s in the middle of a sentence when the gun goes off.  I prefer to think that the gun went off by accident. 

 

Jenny:  “Oh dear God!” <<crosses herself>>

Ian:  “Who did this?”

Jamie:  <<eyes shoot daggers at Jenny>>

Claire: “Laoghaire.” <<more eye daggers>>

Jenny: <<dismayed face>>

God I love that moment.  I laugh EVERY time.

 

<Ahem>  I would just like to say that the desired quota of shirtless-Jamie scenes was adequately met for this episode.  Thankee kindly.  

So, when Claire asks for an apron before doing surgery did anyone else hear costume designer Terry Dresbach off-camera shouting  “Thank you!”  

Ooooh I loved wee Ian noticing the anachronistically fine surgical instruments that Auntie Claire carries.  It reminded me of Mrs. Fitz noticing her brassiere in the 2nd episode.  I half expected Claire to tell wee Ian her fine instruments came from France.

That scene with Jamie on the couch after being shot – Mon Dieu he’s cute in that scene.  Claire hasn’t “stopped being angry” but really how can she resist the woozy, incapacitated, adorableness that Jamie is giving off in that moment?

The flashback to Hogmany is AMAZING.  How nice to see that, despite the shortages and privations that they experienced during those 20 years, they WERE able to have moments of celebration and plenty.

The casting of Marsali is perfect.  She could absolutely be Nell Hudson’s daughter.  I couldn’t see it in her first scene but with her hair down it’s crystal clear.

I LOVE the scene when Claire realizes Jamie has a fever.  Jamie is a wee bit melodramatic (“If you won’t stay with me then I’d rather die and be done with it if that’s all the same to you.”)  But he changes his tune when he catches sight of her wicked-looking needle.  The little smile she gives him after she jabs the needle in his arse makes me laugh every time.  You can see on Jamie’s face the deep suspicion that she rather enjoyed that.

I am so grateful for that scene in which a reconciliation of sorts is accomplished between Claire and Jenny.  Claire doesn’t deny that there are things she’s still keeping hidden and Jenny admits that Claire’s advice about planting potatoes – advice she took without asking any questions about how Claire knew that – did aid the family in a terrible time.  She tells Claire “You saved us.”  Nice to finally hear her admit that.

It’s also nice when Jenny allows Ian to go with Jamie, quoting back to him he line he spoke to her earlier in the show “Best we let him have his freedom while he still thinks it’s ours to give.”

Aaaaand then all the happiness is sucked out of the room (at least for book readers or anyone who has already seen the episode) when Jamie promises he’ll keep Ian safe.  “You can trust us.”[Cue the dramatic music.]

I liked the added scene on the cliff-top.  It was a clever way to deal with the idea that the ship got that close to Selkie Island before Jamie and Claire noticed it.

Oooh did you hear Jamie say that you must first surrender to the current and then later break free of it “or be carried to the new world.”  That’s some stealthy foreshadowing there since all three of them – Jamie, Claire and Ian -- WILL ultimately be carried to the new world.

“Will you risk the man I am for the sake of the one you once knew?”  Sigh.  I love that line.  But note that we did NOT get an answer.

 

THE BAD

Jamie’s reasons for not telling Jenny the truth don’t make much sense to me.  He thinks she won’t understand because she’s lived on a farm her whole life?  If anything, rural people are MORE likely to accept supernatural events than people who “have been out in the world” like Murtagh. Then he says “We’re always at loggerheads.  She’d be full of questions we have no answers for.”  Huh?  If they told her the truth then the important questions would be answered and as for the others (how does it work, why you) the truthful answer would just be “I don’t know.”  I can ignore this line because we’ve already seen Jenny scoff at the explanations that Jamie was trying to give about Ian in the very opening scene.  I can accept that right now Jamie’s credibility with Jenny is at a particularly low ebb so if he tried to tell her the truth she’d likely get angry and assume he was making it all up.  I guess maybe that’s what that line is getting at.  But if so, I think they failed in the execution.

I hate the line Claire says about how she’s worried one of the bird-shot pellets has penetrated an artery and if it has Jamie’ll bleed to death and there’ll be nothing she can do about it.   I presume they wanted to amp up the tension but really?  What doctor would EVER say that within ear-shot of a patient (or one of his relatives).

I am not a fan of how ruthless Claire seemed during the discussion with Ned.  I supposed I can fan-wank that she was not serious in her seeming enthusiasm for bringing Laoghaire up on charges and having her transported to America.  Still, I wish they had instead noted that the threat of bringing her up on charges and the threat of transportation could be used to make her agree to a more reasonable settlement. 

Okay let’s just address the biggest shortcoming of the episode.  That ship turning up at the very moment that Ian is on the island – after those jewels lay undisturbed for 20 YEARS  -- is a coincidence so preposterous it would make Charles Dickens blush.  In the book it’s somewhat less so because Jamie notes that the currents around the island are treacherous and so it can only be approached (by swimmer or boat) at certain times of the year and at certain points in the turning of the tide AND, Ian has made the swim before without incident.  But still, the ship turning up just as Ian has reached the island is one of the biggest WTF moments in the entire series – ranking right up there with two key characters stumbling across one another in the middle of Dismal Swamp (a key scene in a later book).

And I guess we should just ignore how when the ship is first sighted all its sails are unfurled and yet minutes later (after they’ve nabbed wee Ian) all the sails are very dramatically UN-furled as they get underway.  I know I know – if they had shot that scene in real time (dropping anchor, stowing the sails, dispatching the long boat, rowing to the island) Ian would have easily escaped.  But as a fan of “Black Sails” that bit of nautical inaccuracy bugged me.

 

THE UGLY

Weel the prosthetic makers had another field-day, didn’t they?  I’m sure they just loved getting the assignment to make a body that Claire could cut into and pull bird-shot out of.  They’re getting so good at that – what with the brain surgery last week and the maiming of Fergus in ep 302 – that I think they are just looking for excuses to show close-ups of wounds.  Ew.

 

UNANSWERED QUESTIONS

Who really made the swim to the island in Jamie's flashback?  You don’t see his face while he’s in the water.  I’m betting this is one time Sam decided it was okay to let a stunt-man take the bullet.  Because that water had to be COLD.  Just filming the scenes afterward where he runs around in wet clothes had to be a challenge for Sam because it sure looks like it was filmed on a Scottish location. 

Hey!  Where did Claire get the new clothes she wears in the scene with Ned?  They look just like her old clothes from 20 years ago.  Amazing!

Edited November 5, 2017 by WatchrTina

[GingerMarie]

Can anyone say Emmy nomination for Jenny (Laura Donnelly).  She was great.  I know I know not enough air time to qualify for an Emmy but quality over quantity may be the trick.  

[FnkyChkn34]

Jenny is probably the best example of a character I hate to love. Because I love her, despite her being such a meddling b***h.  If you think about, many of Jamie's problems are all because of her - wasn't he arrested the very first time partly because of her and her big mouth?  And now here she is, 20 years later, still stirring that boil pot of shite and getting him shot. If Laura Donnelly wasn't such a great actress, I'd probably just hate her. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

I’ll post in the quote thread later, but I ???At Wee Ian’s hero-worshippy pleasure in telling his parents that “Auntie Claire” killed Barton “Killed him GUID!!” Or his pride in being a verra good “businessman.” “Fergus said sae!” as he puffed out his chest.

??????

[WatchrTina]

26 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

If you think about, many of Jamie's problems are all because of her - wasn't he arrested the very first time partly because of her and her big mouth?

Jamie is arrested the first time for interfering with redcoats raiding the farm for supplies (a.k.a. "Obstruction").  Yes, it was Jenny's scream that brought the raid to Jamie's attention (he was off in the fields at the time) but I really don't think you can blame Jenny for the fact that when Jamie comes upon a group of solders man-handling his sister and robbing his home he take umbrage at that and beats the crap out of them.

[FnkyChkn34]

11 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

Jamie is arrested the first time for interfering with redcoats raiding the farm for supplies (a.k.a. "Obstruction").  Yes, it was Jenny's scream that brought the raid to Jamie's attention (he was off in the fields at the time) but I really don't think you can blame Jenny for the fact that when Jamie comes upon a group of solders man-handling his sister and robbing his home he take umbrage at that and beats the crap out of them.

I never saw them rob them, or even try to rob them. Did I miss that part?  Weren't they collecting taxes?  I just figured Jenny's loud mouth pissed them off. If they'd both cooperated, he'd never have been arrested, and she was combative first. But that's neither here nor there at this point. Jenny is obnoxious, yet we all still seem to love her anyway. 

[WatchrTina]

1 hour ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

I never saw them rob them, or even try to rob them. Did I miss that part?  Weren't they collecting taxes? 

Well given that their captain's activities quickly escalated to stripping a young woman to the waist in an attempt to humiliate her and her brother and then later to attempted rape, I think it's safe to assume that the redcoats under his command were probably not particularly scrupulous in taking only what they were entitled to -- especially if there were only women in the house.  If we're going to make assumptions about who was at fault in that confrontation, I think I'll stick with the assumption that the redcoats exceeded their authority and provoked Jenny.

Aaaaand now bringing this conversation back to the topic of THIS episode -- Jenny is very angry with Claire.  Ian is upset too. The initial shock of "Oh My God! You're alive" has worn off and now they've moved on to "How could you not tell us you were alive?"  It's a fair question.  Their feelings are perfectly legitimate.  And yet we know that Claire is not the bad guy here.  So Jenny's repeated jabs at Claire through the episode can be construed as bitchy.  But another interpretation is just that Jenny no longer trusts Claire and fears that Jamie may be hurt again by Claire's inexplicable behavior.  So I forgive TV Jenny -- for the most part.  BookJenny, on the other hand . . . well, she's still on my shit list because she actually encourages Claire to leave.

Edited November 6, 2017 by WatchrTina

[FnkyChkn34]

7 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

But another interpretation is just that Jenny no longer trusts Claire and fears that Jamie may bet hurt again by Claire's inexplicable behavior. 

Jamie is a grown-ass man. He can make his own decisions; he doesn't need his sister to run his life. Jenny needs to trust Jamie even if she doesn't trust Claire. All he needs to tell her is "I know the whole truth, I know what I want, and it's none of your business." But we know he won't because conflict drives a plot. 

And yes, bookJenny is worse. 

[WatchrTina]

Because I was so happy with this episode I looked up the writer and director in IMDb.  This is the first Outlander script for the writer, Joy Blake.  The director, Jennifer Getzinger also directed ep 302 "Surrender," which I also liked very much.

So, did you notice they are both women?

To quote the philosopher Beyonce, "Who runs the world? Girls!"

[morgan]

Rewatching yet again and still chuckling about how very clean Jamie, Claire, and wee Ian are in the opening scene.  Shouldn’t they be at least a little bit dusty after several days on the road?

Also, why have Jenny ask  Claire if she and her american husband had children?  Claire doesn’t lie, but why have the exchange at all?  Seemed unnecessary to me.

Edited November 6, 2017 by morgan

[Scarlett45]

1 hour ago, morgan said:

Rewatching yet again and still chuckling about how very clean Jamie, Claire, and wee Ian are in the opening scene.  Shouldn’t they be at least a little bit dusty after several days on the road?

Also, why have Jenny ask  Claire if she and her american husband had children?  Claire doesn’t lie, but why have the exchange at all?  Seemed unnecessary to me.

I understood that a bit. If Claire had children in the colonies (by her 2nd husband), why did she leave them and come back? Will she leave again to be with her children and possibly grandchildren in the colonies? I think Jenny was really asking if Claire was HERE for the long haul or did she have a reason to “jump ship” again. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

On my fifth rewatch and I’m assuming that Jenny’s line about showing up after 20 years was for Claire. Because Jamie was around Lallybroch for about seven years before he was arrested and taken to Ardsmuir. 

Okay, gotta concentrate on Jamie now!??

[toolazy]

For what it's worth Ian had never made that swim before in the book - the older Murray sons had done it but that was Young Ian's first time. 

[WatchrTina]

i love the OutlanderCast minute-by-minute recaps.  The link to the one for 308 is below.  Here's the best line (IMHO):

Quote

[8:33 p.m.] Making references to putting a lame horse out of its misery because it’ll never heal right seems ill-suited for use by a woman devoting her life to a man with one leg.

http://www.outlandercast.com/2017/11/outlander-season-3-episode-8.html

Edited November 10, 2017 by WatchrTina

[TaurusRose]

Regarding Jenny, I love the TV character and I love the actress. I have absolutely no problem with Jenny’s behavior or attitude towards Claire.  Jenny’s isn’t harboring just one grievance.  Her feelings are complicated and she’s justified in the way she feels. I also love the fact that she doesn’t pull punches when she’s dealing with the fools around her.  LOL  (I jest when calling C & J fools for the most part.) But I think the main sticking point for Jenny was that she was hurt by Claire’s abandonment and lies.  She had embraced Claire as a sister and she felt betrayed. I think Claire realized that in the end and I liked that last scene between them. I saw Jenny thaw considerably when Claire asked for a second chance.  

I enjoyed this episode right up to the bit where Claire starts talking about making a mistake and Ian gets spirited away. Didn’t like either one of those occurrences and based on the preview, I’m not looking forward to hijinks on the open sea or Jamaica. 

Edited November 6, 2017 by taurusrose

[ferjy]

Can someone clarify a couple of things for me? It’s been a while since I’ve read the books so I may not be recalling it correctly. Didn’t Jamie whip young Ian in the book, and then make young Ian whip him back? I was looking forward to that exchange. Not the lashing, but the talking and how young Ian having to give Jamie lashings is what really taught young Ian a lesson, that that was the real punishment. 

 

And didn’t young Ian have dark hair like Janet? I seem to remember it stressed in the book. He was also supposed to be about 6 feet tall and gangly but I didn’t expect he would be. They didn’t stay true to the books with almost any of the character’s physical attributes. But I find it odd they’d change his hair colour from dark brown to red. 

[ferjy]

11 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I’ll post in the quote thread later, but I ???At Wee Ian’s hero-worshippy pleasure in telling his parents that “Auntie Claire” killed Barton “Killed him GUID!!” Or his pride in being a verra good “businessman.” “Fergus said sae!” as he puffed out his chest.

??????

lol As his patents glared at him. It was priceless. 

[IntrovertGal]

I finally got around to watching this episode and loved it! So much better than the last two episodes, the show really has found its groove again. I felt both Jamie and Claire were much more in character and their chemistry was also more palpable. I love Jenny, she is awesome even though she meddles way too much. I almost teared up when she called Claire her sister and seeing Jenny so hurt by Claire's abandonment broke my heart. On the other hand I had to chuckle when she threw water over Jamie and Claire and stopped their lovemaking.

Leghair was annoying as usual but they did a great job casting her daughters. Seeing Jamie being a father to the girls was lovely. Also, Young Ian's hero worship of both Jamie and Claire is so endearing.

I'm so happy and relieved that the last episode taking place in Scotland was such a great one which really delivered. I'm gonna miss Scotland so much and I'm really not looking forward to the high jinks on the high seas and in Jamaica. Apart from Claire and Jamie's love story, Scotland and its fascinating history were big reasons for me to read the books. One of the few things I'm really looking forward to for the rest of the season is Claire meeting Lord John and the reunion of Jamie and Lord John later on.

[ferjy]

16 hours ago, Nidratime said:

I believe the writers found out from their Scots' advisers on set that the name would be pronounced Marsley, rhyming with parsley. I guess Davina Porter didn't confer with any Scots about that. ;-)

 

Speaking of pronunciations, Jamie keeps saying Brianna the way Claire does. I remember in the book after he says it’s a terrible name he tells Claire she’s mispronouncing it and that it should be BREE-ahna. I wanted to hear him say it!

[DittyDotDot]

2 hours ago, ferjy said:

Can someone clarify a couple of things for me? It’s been a while since I’ve read the books so I may not be recalling it correctly. Didn’t Jamie whip young Ian in the book, and then make young Ian whip him back? I was looking forward to that exchange. Not the lashing, but the talking and how young Ian having to give Jamie lashings is what really taught young Ian a lesson, that that was the real punishment. 

 

And didn’t young Ian have dark hair like Janet? I seem to remember it stressed in the book. He was also supposed to be about 6 feet tall and gangly but I didn’t expect he would be. They didn’t stay true to the books with almost any of the character’s physical attributes. But I find it odd they’d change his hair colour from dark brown to red. 

Yes on both counts. I'm not sure why they made wee Ian so light in comparison to the books, his dark coloring is something that's somewhat important later, but I guess they'll figure it out when they get there? But, yes, Jamie and Ian both strapped each other and wee Ian is dark haired like Jenny in the books.

1 hour ago, ferjy said:

Speaking of pronunciations, Jamie keeps saying Brianna the way Claire does. I remember in the book after he says it’s a terrible name he tells Claire she’s mispronouncing it and that it should be BREE-ahna. I wanted to hear him say it!

I believe Jamie adopted Claire's pronunciation despite his initial rebuff of it. 

Edited November 6, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Haleth]

18 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Claire, honey, just no... you can't bring up "there's room for secrets but not lies" when getting mad at Jamie here. Because that's exactly what he did! He kept a secret, but he didn't lie. Claire never asked if he remarried, if he had a wife, if he married Leghair.  Claire only ever asked if he ever fell in love with anyone else, and "no" was the truth. Be mad, Claire, yes - but don't use that quote!  I did not like that part at all...

It's not like he forgot to tell her, oops, he deliberately avoided telling her something she really, really needed to hear.  That's a pretty big omission and as good (as bad?) as a lie.

I thought the way Jenny was portrayed in the book made her seem harsh and unforgiving, but Laura's performance nailed it.  She wasn't harsh and unforgiving because she was personally hurt (although she was), it was on behalf of Jamie that she turned so cold.  Even though she is younger than Jamie and tiny to boot, she always acted like a big sister, as protective of him as she is her children.  I loved when she threw water onto them.

You could see when Claire said she was just asking for a second chance, Jenny's hard shell developed a wee crack.  A very cautious one that will disappear as soon as she hears the news about young Ian.

I adore older Ian, in both book and show.  Such a kind, gentle man.

16 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

Did he really intend to swim all the way back carrying it?

Really!  Jamie didn't put a whole lot of thought into the retrieval of the treasure.  Ian would have sunk like a stone.

2 hours ago, ferjy said:

Can someone clarify a couple of things for me? It’s been a while since I’ve read the books so I may not be recalling it correctly. Didn’t Jamie whip young Ian in the book, and then make young Ian whip him back?

Oh, right.  Didn't Jamie insist Ian whip him back for putting the boy in danger and not properly watching out for him as promised?

The casting for Marsali is spot on.

[nodorothyparker]

Jenny is actually a couple of years older than Jamie.  He tells the story at some point about how after his mother died, she put on her mother's apron, climbed up on a stool to reach whatever their 18th century equivalent of a counter was, and assumed the lady of the house role and that of almost a mother as much a sister to him..  It's one she's never been able to give up.  When seen through the prism that she's the one who's had to keep the family going, manage the estate and tenant lands with Ian, and generally clean up whatever fallout Jamie has brought down upon them, I have no trouble understanding why she is the way she is. 

[Haleth]

5 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

Jenny is actually a couple of years older than Jamie. 

Oh, ok.  I misremembered.

[Scarlett45]

2 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

Jenny is actually a couple of years older than Jamie.  He tells the story at some point about how after his mother died, she put on her mother's apron, climbed up on a stool to reach whatever their 18th century equivalent of a counter was, and assumed the lady of the house role and that of almost a mother as much a sister to him..  It's one she's never been able to give up.  When seen through the prism that she's the one who's had to keep the family going, manage the estate and tenant lands with Ian, and generally clean up whatever fallout Jamie has brought down upon them, I have no trouble understanding why she is the way she is. 

Exactly. Jenny’s been through quite a bit throughout the years holding the family together. Ian’s been a good husband and partner to her, but it’s clear he’s been sick and doing the work of two men even with his leg. Jenny is TIRED. And it might not be fair, but to think that Claire walked off and lived a comfortable life in the colonies when they were struggling to get by would make anyone testy. 

[DittyDotDot]

2 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

Jenny is actually a couple of years older than Jamie.  He tells the story at some point about how after his mother died, she put on her mother's apron, climbed up on a stool to reach whatever their 18th century equivalent of a counter was, and assumed the lady of the house role and that of almost a mother as much a sister to him..  It's one she's never been able to give up.  When seen through the prism that she's the one who's had to keep the family going, manage the estate and tenant lands with Ian, and generally clean up whatever fallout Jamie has brought down upon them, I have no trouble understanding why she is the way she is. 

Yeah, that is pretty much always been my read of Jenny too. I never had a problem with her in the books. I think she was perfectly justified in feeling hurt and abandoned by Claire. Not sure I would've handled that hurt the same way, but I don't feel like she was wrong, even in the books.

[GHScorpiosRule]

14 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Exactly. Jenny’s been through quite a bit throughout the years holding the family together. Ian’s been a good husband and partner to her, but it’s clear he’s been sick and doing the work of two men even with his leg. Jenny is TIRED. And it might not be fair, but to think that Claire walked off and lived a comfortable life in the colonies when they were struggling to get by would make anyone testy. 

I don't hold Jenny's anger toward Claire against her. But, unlike show, I think someone mentioned, that in the buik, Jamie was able to get the treasure to Jenny and Ian so that they didn't have to struggle so long? On top of the monies Jenny got for "turning in" Jamie to Ardsmuir.

And I guess I was just loving the episode so much, these OBVIOUS lines went right over me head, because of Laura, Steven and Sam's performances. That the last time Jamie was at Lallybroch was shortly before he wed that vicious hosebeast. And it was during Hogmanay. That would have been three years, if it took a year to convince Jamie to wed that beast, or two, since they've only been married two years. So the "you come home after 20 years" is clearly aimed at Claire and not Jamie. Guess it just sounded more dramatic that way? 20 v. 2?

I'm not going to quibble over how Show!Wee Ian doesn't look like buik!Wee Ian, after my initial HUH? reaction, because the actor has embued and convinced me that he is Wee Ian. With his hero worship and love for his Uncle Jamie and Auntie Claire!

[WatchrTina]

We don't see it in the book (because we're in Claire's point of view and she's gone when it happens) but I think it's fair to assume that Jenny is HORRIFIED when Laoghaire shoots Jamie and I assume she feels partly responsible because she's the one who set the wheels of that confrontation in motion.  So I love that in the show we actually get to SEE Jenny react to the news that Laoghaire shot Jamie.  I love Laura Donnelly and she plays it just right.  So do Sam and Cait -- Jamie shoots Jenny a dirty look when Ian asks "Who did this?" and Claire's face and tone of voice say it all when she names Laoghaire as the culprit.  You can SEE Jenny recoil at the news.  I just LOVE that bit.  And since Jamie is being all heroic and declaring "It's not that bad" and "Leave me be" the scene plays slightly as comedic -- at least to me.  I laugh every time at Jenny's horror.  

That, I think, is the moment when Jenny's anger at the Jamie/Claire situation breaks.  That just HAS to put Jenny in a frame of mind to think how sometimes people do things for the right reasons but bad outcomes occur anyway.  Anyway, that's my interpretation.

Edited November 6, 2017 by WatchrTina

[Mrs. Hanson]

I thought the episode did a great job of addressing the Big Question:  "Did I make a mistake in coming back?"  and/or Maybe You Can't Go Home Again.  They are both different people and are not to be faulted for the choices they made.  Jamie had no idea Claire would return and he ached to be a father, the father he could not be to Brianna.  Marrying Leghair.....ugh. 

59 minutes ago, Haleth said:

It's not like he forgot to tell her, oops, he deliberately avoided telling her something she really, really needed to hear.  That's a pretty big omission and as good (as bad?) as a lie.

I agree - people can go back and forth and tweak the semantics but Jamie DID withhold a big whopper on this one.  "When we get back to our home....let's see....we'll need to tend the garden, feed the sheep, get firewood and oh yeah.....MEET MY WIFE.  The one who accused you of being a witch!!"  

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 minute ago, WatchrTina said:

 I love Laura Donnelly and she plays it just right.  So do Sam and Cait -- Jamie shoots Jenny a dirty look when Ian asks "Who did this?" and Claire face and tone of voice say it all when she names Laoghaire as the culprit.

I MOST ESPECIALLY LOVE the part I bolded! Everyone was just GREAT last night! And since I don't have anything to watch tonight, guess wot I'll be watching again?

3 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

And since Jamie is being all heroic and declaring "It's not that bad" and "Leave me be" the scene plays slightly as comedic -- at least to me.  I laugh every time at Jenny's horror.  

"It's no' that bad. I'll be fine. Leave me be." (I need to go back and confirm the actual line) 

And then him being all the wound isn't anything that Claire can't fix. And then, then, I we finally get Jamie to remove his shirt!

[FnkyChkn34]

1 hour ago, Haleth said:

It's not like he forgot to tell her, oops, he deliberately avoided telling her something she really, really needed to hear.  That's a pretty big omission and as good (as bad?) as a lie.

That's what I'm saying.  Jamie did a very bad thing, but by Claire using that quote it makes her sound ridiculous.  "You can have secrets, just don't lie."  "Well, I didn't lie, all I did was keep a secret..." "Yeah, see, I'm still mad."  It just doesn't make sense to use that quote as her justification.  She's mad because he kept a secret, which - yes! is bad! - but she basically tells him he was allowed?  Uhh... no.

[GHScorpiosRule]

9 minutes ago, Mrs. Hanson said:

I thought the episode did a great job of addressing the Big Question:  "Did I make a mistake in coming back?"  and/or Maybe You Can't Go Home Again.  They are both different people and are not to be faulted for the choices they made. 

And I thought it was wholly unnecessary to do this. Because for those of us familiar with the buiks--there was NO BIG QUESTION. Claire didn't have any doubts about coming back. Toni Graphia admitted this in the 'after the episode' discussion with Roberts and Moore. SHE thought Claire should have had doubts because it's "human" to do so. However, the character of Claire--which is the important part for me, did not. They should have stuck with that. But then, they wouldn't have the dramaaaaz. As if these two crazy kids needed more? But that said, I did love what Jamie had to say at the end, before their attention was abruptly taken by the ships and boats. Boo! I wanted to hear Claire's response! 

[nodorothyparker]

14 minutes ago, Mrs. Hanson said:

I agree - people can go back and forth and tweak the semantics but Jamie DID withhold a big whopper on this one.  "When we get back to our home....let's see....we'll need to tend the garden, feed the sheep, get firewood and oh yeah.....MEET MY WIFE.  The one who accused you of being a witch!!"  

LOL.  I don't care enough to go back and look but wasn't he talking about building them a cottage on estate land before he started hemming and hawing around in the direction of telling her?  I just remember thinking "Dude, sooo putting the cart before the horse on that."  She may not be interested in living just down the road from your OTHER wife even if she does take the news extremely extremely well.

[GHScorpiosRule]

I hate to make any defenses for that vicious little beast, but did Jamie know she was responsible for turning in Claire and being part of the mob that was chanting "burn the witch!" at the trial? All his attention was focused on getting Claire free and away, and his swords aimed at the men in the room, before Geillis admitted to being a witch. We do know that Jamie knew she was responsible for the ill-wish.

I think he called her a besom for doing that. That alone was enough for him to hold her in contempt and not care for anything she had to say.

I'll be more than happy to be proven wrong.

Edited November 6, 2017 by GHScorpiosRule

[WatchrTina]

On 11/6/2017 at 7:55 AM, Mrs. Hanson said:

MEET MY WIFE.  The one who accused you of being a witch!!"  

Sigh. I did not get my wish.  In the book Laoghaire's involvement in the witch trial is much less clear.  She delivers the fake note from Geillis that puts Claire in the position to be arrested along with Geillis but who told her to do that?  It had to be someone in authority who knew when Geillis was going to be arrested.  In the graphic novel it's hinted that it might have been Colum.  So Book!Jamie's decision to marry Laoghaire, while shocking to Claire and surprising the reader, does not seem a complete betrayal. It's completely understandable to assume that Book!Jamie never even heard about the note.  I always assumed Book!Jamie was SHOCKED to learn of Laoghaire' involvement with the arrest -- but not so shocked that he bothers to TELL anyone what Claire told him because the rest of his family does not learn of Laoghaire's involvement until Brianna shows up, slams the pearls down on he kitchen table (to prove who she is) and then calls out Laoghaire for her actions.

The show had a tougher row to hoe.  TV!Laoghaire actually testified at the trial.  TV!Jamie even catches sight of her in the crowd as Geillis is carried away.  Yeah the TV writers tried to address that by having Laoghaire be penitent and helpful to Claire in "The Fox's Lair" episode but for me that was not enough.  I was really hoping for clarification that Jamie didn't know the extent of Laoghaire's involvement in the witch trial -- that he'd seen her in the crowd during the escape but didn't ascribe any significance to that.  I wanted to see Jamie's shocked face when he learned that Laoghaire actually testified against Claire and that she had declared she would "dance upon [Claire's] ashes."  Alas, all we got was "Ye TOLD me to be nice to her."  Sigh.  Oh well, it's a small disappointment in an episode that I really LOVED.

Edited November 10, 2017 by WatchrTina

[Summer]

8 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Toni Graphia admitted this in the 'after the episode' discussion with Roberts and Moore. SHE thought Claire should have had doubts because it's "human" to do so.

I get why it would be normal for her to have doubts, are they the same people from 20 years ago, they both lived lives etc.  but that part at the end when all of a sudden she starts saying her life in the 20th century wasn't that bad really annoyed me. We had to endure 5 episodes of sad, mopey, heartbroken living half a life Claire and now she's saying "Hey, it wasn't ALL that bad" it just bugged me.   

[nodorothyparker]

Jamie's excuse that "well, golly gee, you told me to make nice with her" was ridiculously weak given the way the show amped up the Claire-Laoghaire rivalry to 11 with the witch trial and Laoghaire's vow to dance on Claire's ashes.  That's yet another one of those writing choices I really wish they'd thought through to its logical conclusion before making those changes or bringing Laoghaire back briefly as a laundry sniffing obsessive last season.  But I realize we're not supposed to dwell on it or care as it's now off their big Pirates of the Caribbean adventure.

[GHScorpiosRule]

8 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

Alas, all we got was "Ye TOLD me to be nice to her."  Sigh.  Oh well, it's a small disappointment in an episode that I really LOVED.

Claire: (with a WTF expression)-"I told you to THANK her, NOT marry her!"

[Atlanta]

1 hour ago, nodorothyparker said:

Jenny is actually a couple of years older than Jamie.  He tells the story at some point about how after his mother died, she put on her mother's apron, climbed up on a stool to reach whatever their 18th century equivalent of a counter was, and assumed the lady of the house role and that of almost a mother as much a sister to him..  It's one she's never been able to give up.  When seen through the prism that she's the one who's had to keep the family going, manage the estate and tenant lands with Ian, and generally clean up whatever fallout Jamie has brought down upon them, I have no trouble understanding why she is the way she is. 

She's younger. In MOBY, Roger meets her and she's around 15/16 and Jamie is away as a mercenary in Paris thus putting him at around 19. However, Outlander wikia has her older. I'm confused.

Edited November 6, 2017 by Atlanta

[AD55]

I need to watch the episode again. My son was around and kept making snarky, if hilarious, comments that took me out of the story. My favorite  was at the end when Claire says something about not knowing if she belongs in Scotland, which my kid noted would be more convincing if she weren't at that moment standing on a gorgeous cliff staring out at treasure island (he phrased it in a funnier way). I'm not going to comment on the show, but I will just say that I applaud the writer(s) for that wide shot at the end that puts us squarely in Ian's point of view. Even my snarky kid loved it. He's an artist and said that generally, he thinks that Outlander doesn't do as good a job of using the landscape as some other shows, for example, Poldark.

I'm so glad to see the Laura Donnelly love. It's funny how you sometimes get instincts about actors. I first saw her in an episode of Merlin, where she played Merlin's love interest. She and Colin Morgan were fantastic together, and I remember hoping she would continue to get parts because she was such a standout among the guest stars. I started following her career after that. She's done a lot of impressive stage work and has received rave reviews for her role in The Ferryman, which played in the West End of London over the summer (I'm not sure if it's still running). When Outlander was being cast, I was over the moon to see she was playing Jenny. I knew she would be wonderful.

[WatchrTina]

11 minutes ago, Summer said:

that part at the end when all of a sudden she starts saying her life in the 20th century wasn't that bad really annoyed me

Yeah that timing was weird but I forgive the writers because they fell into the well of plot necessity.  Claire and Jamie had to be having a BIG conversation on the cliff-top because otherwise there would be no possible reason for then to not notice the SHIP UNDER FULL SAIL bearing down on the island of plot-necessary treasure.  

Hmmm, the more I think about it the more the words coming out of Claire's mouth on the cliff-top ("Boston wasn't so bad") ARE weird.  I guess I just hand-wave past them while I await the payoff of Jamie's final line, "“Will you risk the man I am for the sake of the one you once knew?”

Edited November 6, 2017 by WatchrTina

[GHScorpiosRule]

2 minutes ago, Summer said:

I get why it would be normal for her to have doubts, are they the same people from 20 years ago, they both lived lives etc.  but that part at the end when all of a sudden she starts saying her life in the 20th century wasn't that bad really annoyed me. We had to endure 5 episodes of sad, mopey, heartbroken living half a life Claire and now she's saying "Hey, it wasn't ALL that bad" it just bugged me.   

Yes, but IF the show had done it right, they would have had that conversation in "A. Malcolm." They only touched on it, when Claire asked if he wanted her to go. Yes, she had a fulfilling career as a doctor, but the show failed to show me her friends. Joe was the only one, and even with him, they FAILED. Instead, it was Frank!Frank!Frank! and his sidepiece Sandy. And Claire did have doubts-Would Jamie still find her sexually attractive? Much changed? What if he didn't love her anymore? And those were laid to rest within moments of seeing each other again. I don't need nor do I want REAL LIFE shit being crammed into my show. All I ask is that the writers try to translate to screen as best they can, and leave their own bluidy 21st century 'this how it SHOULD be' thoughts out.

1 minute ago, nodorothyparker said:

Jamie's excuse that "well, golly gee, you told me to make nice with her" was ridiculously weak given the way the show amped up the Claire-Laoghaire rivalry to 11 with the witch trial and Laoghaire's vow to dance on Claire's ashes.  That's yet another one of those writing choices I really wish they'd thought through to its logical conclusion before making those changes or bringing Laoghaire back briefly as a laundry sniffing obsessive last season.  But I realize we're not supposed to dwell on it or care as it's now off their big Pirates of the Caribbean adventure.

That's all on Ron Moore--who wanted and was determined and drew out that ridiculous Witch Trial, because he WANTED a Salem's Witch Trial on this show. And so he could find ways to redeem that besom down the line. And Toni and last season's Anne Kenney(?) went along with it, hence "The Fox's Lair."

[nodorothyparker]

22 minutes ago, Atlanta said:

She's younger. In MOBY, Roger meets her and she's around 15/16 and Jamie is away as a mercenary in Paris thus putting him at around 19. However, Outlander wikia has her older. I'm confused.

She's the older sister in every other place in the series, 10 to Jamie's 8 when their mother dies.  If that's what it says in MOBY I'm chalking it up to yet another instance of Gabaldon not remembering her own dates or timeline.

[FnkyChkn34]

27 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I hate to make any defenses for that vicious little beast, but did Jamie know she was responsible for turning in Claire and being part of the mob that was chanting "burn the witch!" at the trial? All his attention was focused on getting Claire free and away, and his swords aimed at the men in the room, before Geillis admitted to being a witch. We do know that Jamie knew she was responsible for the ill-wish.

I think he called her a besom for doing that. That alone was enough for him to hold her in contempt and not care for anything she had to say.

I'll be more than happy to be proven wrong.

He knew in the show.  He did not know in the books.

20 minutes ago, Summer said:

I get why it would be normal for her to have doubts, are they the same people from 20 years ago, they both lived lives etc.  but that part at the end when all of a sudden she starts saying her life in the 20th century wasn't that bad really annoyed me. We had to endure 5 episodes of sad, mopey, heartbroken living half a life Claire and now she's saying "Hey, it wasn't ALL that bad" it just bugged me.   

Yes, this bugged me too!  "I had a career!  A family!"  Then you should have stayed there.  Don't bring it up now just because this man you pined over for 20 years actually pined over you for 20 years too, still wants you, and is moving heaven and earth to be with you - but you're a little butthurt over his one bad decision.  Just don't.  

[toolazy]

17 minutes ago, Atlanta said:

She's younger. In MOBY, Roger meets her and she's around 15/16 and Jamie is away as a mercenary in Paris thus putting him at around 19. However, Outlander wikia has her older. I'm confused.

She's definitely older.  She talks about what a sweet baby Jamie was and how he would smile in his sleep when they caressed his head a certain way.  The incident you're thinking of is the first time Jamie went off with Dougal to raid neighboring clan lands.  Jamie was 14. 

[nodorothyparker]

10 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

That's all on Ron Moore--who wanted and was determined and drew out that ridiculous Witch Trial, because he WANTED a Salem's Witch Trial on this show. And so he could find ways to redeem that besom down the line. And Toni and last season's Anne Kenney(?) went along with it, hence "The Fox's Lair."

True enough.  But as this is all one finished product, story changes have consequences and making those changes in the early seasons only to end with Jamie lamely try to excuse marrying a woman he knew full well, jealousy of Claire aside, would have seen an innocent person burned alive is not a good look for Jamie.  I can buy the rest of the show's emphasis on the reasoning for the marriage to largely be about giving himself a replacement family for the children and life he had been denied.  This is one of those instances though where the show actually managed to make something worse from the book.