S07.E04: Beauty

[Rumsy4]

3 hours ago, Camera One said:

The montage with the voiceover about how she was his prisoner and then fell in love and "came back, more than a few times", etc. was really off-putting and not heart-warming in the least. 

That part was pretty rage inducing. There's nothing romantic or hopeful about that. This and the multiple call-outs to Rumple's "pure heart" took me out of the episode.

[Writing Wrongs]

Maybe the pure heart was referring to that 2 minutes when his heart was clear from the darkness? When The Apprentice took it out.

[legaleagle53]

6 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Also, how come Victoria's curse wore off on Alice and now she needs pills to keep erasing her memories? Because at least with Regina's curse, she chose a select few to remember for various, legitimate reasons and everyone else who wasn't under the curse just hadn't been swept up in it. This just makes Victoria's work look very sloppy, as if she half assed the curse with some very glaring holes. 

I'd like to think it'll be explained when Victoria eventually gets caught....but even if they do, I can't imagine the reasoning will be very good.

I'm betting now that it was the witch whom Victoria keeps chained up who cast the curse for Lady Tremaine after Lady Tremaine somehow strong-armed the witch into casting it.  That doesn't mean that the witch couldn't have somehow tweaked the curse to start breaking down in Alice's case as a passive-aggressive way of getting even with Lady Tremaine -- after all, it's clear that the witch hates Lady Tremaine and isn't the least bit afraid of her.

[RedKeep]

Well that was definitely a lot better than I expected. I agree that most of the sideplots are much more intriguing than the main Henry(/Cinders/Lucy) story, but then again that's almost always been the case with this show. I always thought romance just wasn't something A&E ever did particularly well and they lucked out a lot when they cast JD and GG who breathed a lot more life into Snow and Charming than the writing did right from the start. The same is probably true, to a certain extent, for Rumbelle. Never been a huge fan based on the writing, but I can definitely acknowledge and enjoy the work RC and EDR do with these characters in an episode like this one. Alice is easily one of their best new additions, but I see some potential in Tiana too. Here's hoping they don't end up wasting most of it - in both cases.

[maryle]

Saw it and too much hype!

Good probably the best of s7 but...that dont say much!

Alice is the character that intriguing me, interesting throughtout all the episode! The actress is the only one that can demonstrate range, deep and not be too campy! Adelaine (never watch reign so dont really know her, but people thought she will bring viewers) was fine also and I will watch her with henry anyday versus the dullest ship to ever ship! 

The rumbelle scene were nice! But, cant add much cause it was generic, nothing unexpected happened and robert and emilie was ok but robert c is just not as good as he was before most of time he felt one tone! His weaver is not menacing or really intriguing he is just there! His best scene where he was the most alive or was with alice but not by much

Tremaine is really not that interesting either as a villain, the actress is probably the weakest of all the villain actress they had on the show! Cora, regina, the first lady tremaine were all better and interesting!

Lucy seem a brat!

Really alice and ivy was the best part! Adieu Belle! 

[txhorns79]

Quote

I'm betting now that it was the witch whom Victoria keeps chained up who cast the curse for Lady Tremaine after Lady Tremaine somehow strong-armed the witch into casting it.  That doesn't mean that the witch couldn't have somehow tweaked the curse to start breaking down in Alice's case as a passive-aggressive way of getting even with Lady Tremaine -- after all, it's clear that the witch hates Lady Tremaine and isn't the least bit afraid of her.

I just figured it was like the first season where little things began happening each episode to show that the curse was breaking down because of whatever Emma was doing.  For example, in the pilot where time started moving forward for Storybrooke, or how Regina's apples began browning.  In this episode, Alice stopped taking her medication as a way to show the curse was coming undone.     

[Noneofyourbusiness]

7 hours ago, jay741982 said:

I took that as she had an ex female friend at first cause I've known heterosexual women who referred to their female friend as Girlfriend but yes what you said makes every bit of sense as well lol

People don't really use "ex" for friends, at least in my experience.

So we're supposed to believe that Belle would want to spend her twilight years having no further adventures, in a place where she apparently has no neighbors, in a realm without modern technology? And my, she got a grey streak quickly after ten years. She was in her thirties at most when we last saw her in Season Six, probably her twenties in fact because she was betrothed to Gaston in a medieval society where thirties would be considered "an old maid".

[Noneofyourbusiness]

3 hours ago, Writing Wrongs said:

Maybe the pure heart was referring to that 2 minutes when his heart was clear from the darkness? When The Apprentice took it out.

That's what I thought. But he purposefully became the Dark One again when he had that "pure" heart that had no impact on the story beyond getting Excalibur out of the stone. Bad, bad writing.

[darkestboy]

Better than the previous three.

I think we got a good ending for Belle here like we did with Emma/Hook two weeks ago though a lot of the scenes with her and Rumple were more twee than usual. Nice brief appearance from Gideon too.

Ivy and Alice are more engaging to watch as characters than either Jacinda or Victoria at the moment. Why do I get the feeling we're gonna get a Jacinda/Henry/Ivy triangle of sorts though.

I really liked the Alice/Weaver scenes this week even if her attempts to get Weaver onside weren't a success.

Is she Not Hook's daughter though? 7/10

[Mitch]

Well, I am just glad the freak show that is Rumpbelle is over..to preserve my sanity I don't pay attention to the time lines so I just took it that Belle and Rump lived in that odd ball place for 40 something years and Belle died happy, which yes is the best we could ask for all of us...(I don't pay attention to anything on this show about that damn dagger or another stupid prophesy attached to it or Rump...) I thought that this did bring back something that could be potentially interesting..being immortal and seeing everyone you love die before you...at last we have a good and emotional motive for Rump..he wants to end the curse so he can die in peace...and it might stick this time as the show wont last another year.

I liked the Alice girl and I am happy to see any female character who isnt afraid/and/or wanting to screw Rump. The just didnt do enough with him and Emma...Emma should have been as powerful as him and not take his crap but they just didnt have those two together much and last year when he had to save the Savior from that spider (Gah)  Lets keep Rump on task and not have him sideline betraying the good guys...I though RC did some of his best work since S1..he really does well as the tired, sad, angry man who screws himself over..much better then being the Invincible Bastard Rump...The urban setting worked for the show this time.

The rest...boring. Victoria is the dullest villain ever on this show ..I miss sneaky, bitchy Mayor Mills. Victoria comes off as an Uber Bitch from a bad soap like Passions. Next week looks interesting and it would be interesting if the witch screwed with Vickie and worked some loops into her curse...like Alice waking up and putting a picture of Regina and Henry where they could find it. That would make more sense then the Goofy Book appearing on its own, etc.

[Amerilla]

12 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

I'm curious to know if Rumbellers were satisfied.

 

From what I've been seeing on Twitter and Tumblr: yes, in the same way CS fans were satisfied with the conclusion of that story a couple weeks ago. The very best any fan could hope for after season after season of relentless angst was an illusion of a long, albeit mostly offscreen, period of happiness.

Ending that story with Belle's death in old age was actually better-received than I expected. It allowed the fans to feel like they had had a lot of peaceful years together and Belle refusing the opportunity to live on because she believed it was her death that could finally set Rumpel on the path to freedom was very much in-character for a person who started off sacrificing her freedom to save the lives of her community.

Given the show's propensity to fall back on aging and death as a reversible condition, just having Belle live a long life, raise her son to manhood, grow old, and die peacefully in her husband's arms feels positively historic. 

Overall, I feel like it was also meant as a little love letter to Robert and Emilie -- to give them those last moments of screen time together to play the characters as they perceived them. I certainly understand the majority of the board's opinion that Rumbelle often came off as an abusive relationship, but I also get that Bobby and Em never saw it that way. (Thus their horror when Barbara Bennett asked them about the abusive aspect it at Comic Con that time.) They always saw it as a tragic true-love story.

That's one of the reasons that fanbase stayed so devoted over years and years of shitty writing/plotting: because the knew Bobby and Emilie were at least trying to give their story some pathos and heart. And let's face it, that was an uphill battle for most of the series.

[CCTC]

17 minutes ago, Amerilla said:

Belle refusing the opportunity to live on because she believed it was her death that could finally set Rumpel on the path to freedom was very much in-character for a person who started off sacrificing her freedom to save the lives of her community.

In some ways they gave Belle more to do in that episode than they did in all of the second part of Season 6 when her adult son was threatening people.  It was strange she was such a non-factor in that story line after her brief fighting with Rumple at the beginning of the season (when he literally kept her prisoner again -- but soon to be forgotten and never mentioned).

 

32 minutes ago, Mitch said:

.being immortal and seeing everyone you love die before you..

Did Rumple just take off and leave Gideon when Belle died when he was still a fairly young man or did he wait until he died of old age as well?  I thought over-all it was good closure for their fans and the final scene was sweet (good acting and the actors really did have a good connection), but there was kind of a creepy vibe of the two having no life or interests outside of each other, being all consumed with their relationship that they had no other relationships,, and even their child was somewhat secondary in their minds.   I would imagine if you spent time with them during their peaceful bliss they would have been very dull and annoying to be around.

Edited October 28, 2017 by CCTC

[Rumsy4]

15 minutes ago, Amerilla said:

From what I've been seeing on Twitter and Tumblr: yes, in the same way CS fans were satisfied with the conclusion of that story a couple weeks ago. The very best any fan could hope for after season after season of relentless angst was an illusion of a long, albeit mostly offscreen, period of happiness....

That's one of the reasons that fanbase stayed so devoted over years and years of shitty writing/plotting: because the knew Bobby and Emilie were at least trying to give their story some pathos and heart. And let's face it, that was an uphill battle for most of the series.

I guess I can see that. It could have been worse seems to be the main reason CSers and Rumbellers are satisfied with the two goodbye episodes. 

[Noneofyourbusiness]

You know, thinking of all the plot points and dialogue assertions that have not fit with each other or have been introduced and then gone nowhere, I think I realized what the writers' strategy is: write the first thing that comes to mind.

[tessaray]

Even after sleeping on it, not sure how I felt about this one.  Seeing Storybrooke in the opening was rubbing salt in the wound almost. As for the party, I imagine anyone coming is doing it for Belle, though I can see Emma encouraging Henry to have a relationship with his other little baby uncle.  

Rumpbelle's happy interlude was kind of weirdly long for this show but I've never seen Up, so it just seemed cloying.  Is dead better than a sleeping curse or some of the other ways they've used to ignore Belle?  At least Emilie got some screen time on her way out.  (Maybe she'll show up on the Roswell reboot?)

I like Ivy. Best line of the episode was her saying she'd rather eat carbs rather than do something with Lucy.  I don't blame her.  The second best was Weaver calling VB "dearie".  And the sound of the teacup breaking waking Rumple was satisfying.  At least, it felt a little like OUAT.  

So, in a way I wish this episode had been worse so I could delete the show from the dvr. There was just enough Once to keep me undecided.  If they could fix the Henry/Jacinda/Lucy thing I'd probably be more optimistic but how do you do that when it's the cornerstone of the new show?  

[Noneofyourbusiness]

1 hour ago, Mitch said:

The just didnt do enough with him and Emma...Emma should have been as powerful as him and not take his crap but they just didnt have those two together much and last year when he had to save the Savior from that spider (Gah)

They never did enough with Emma's powers. They had her learning to use magic better from Regina and showing off to Hook for about three minutes, then basically abandoned that idea and had her continue to be an amateur at magic for all following seasons. She couldn't even rescue Hook from drowning in a tub.

Edited October 28, 2017 by Noneofyourbusiness

[Noneofyourbusiness]

Ivy saying that Jacinda hopes Henry will be her baby daddy was strange. A "baby daddy" is a biological father, and I can't see why Ivy would think Jacinda wants Henry to get her pregnant again. Maybe the writers think it means 'play father to her child'. Which it doesn't.

[Curio]

Finally watched the full episode, and I can't believe the writers gave Belle a more thorough farewell episode than Emma. 

1 hour ago, tessaray said:

Rumpbelle's happy interlude was kind of weirdly long for this show but I've never seen Up, so it just seemed cloying. 

 

They basically did a poor man's version of the classic Up montage. The original Up montage is considered a masterpiece in animated storytelling, and OUAT piggybacked off of it with the hope of taking some of the Up emotional reaction as well. Mark Isham even copied the Up soundtrack's use of whimsical woodwinds and bright piano notes. So yes, the Rumple/Belle montage did seem weirdly long for this show because whenever we do get domestic bliss scenes, those moments usually only last for 20 seconds before they're interrupted by a monster or an intruding parent. Why did the writers take so much time to show Belle and Rumple living happy, normal lives together, but Emma's happy beginning is shoved to Offscreenville? A quick mention of being pregnant isn't exactly satisfying when you can't even see her happy moments on screen.

Jacinda continues to be the worst. Jacinda berated Ivy for losing Lucy, but Jacinda literally lost track of Lucy no more than a week ago?

I'm only hanging on by a thread here to watch the potential Alice/Hook plot. 

Edited October 28, 2017 by Curio

[Shanna Marie]

14 hours ago, KaveDweller said:

I think when writing dialogue, writers try and make it sound like people realistically talk. This is not always proper English, so things like that don't bother me. 

Yes, but they had someone who is a writer saying it. You can use non-standard or non-proper English when it fits the character, but most novelists probably squirmed or shouted back at the TV when Henry said it. A novelist isn't going to talk that way.

12 hours ago, Camera One said:

The montage with the voiceover about how she was his prisoner and then fell in love and "came back, more than a few times", etc. was really off-putting and not heart-warming in the least. 

Especially when one of the times when she went away (or kicked him out), it was because she'd caught him about to crush someone's heart in a murderous ritual to give himself unlimited power, and then when he came back he impersonated her friend to trick her into giving him the dagger back, and then there was the time she learned he'd sold his second-born child, and the time she was afraid of what he'd do to her and the baby, so she hid on the Jolly Roger, where he trapped her with her enemy, who nearly killed her. Ah, such warm, happy memories.

The problem with the Henry/Ivy/Jacinda situation is that even if you go by the fact that chemistry is subjective and not everyone is going to agree that Henry has better chemistry with Ivy than with Jacinda, there's still more potential story with Ivy. Jacinda doesn't seem to have any real character arc going on -- she has to "believe," and she wants her daughter back, but there's not a lot going on with her as a person. There's no real conflict between her and Henry, nothing keeping them apart if they want to be together. He has his worry about moving on after the death of his wife and daughter, but that's coming across looking more like he's awkward talking to girls because he doesn't seem to have any problem hanging out with Jacinda and Lucy. We haven't seen them together as a couple or family in the flashbacks to have a sense of the way things are supposed to go. Their entire relationship would be solved if the curse broke. But with Ivy, there's a potential character arc of her figuring out where she stands, does she want to be like her mother and be part of her mother's plans, or does she want to find her own way and break with her mother? If she were in a relationship with Henry, it might be a tug of war over her soul between Victoria and Henry. Would she be willing to give up the perks that come with associating with her mother (the wealth and power) to stand on her own and be in charge of her own life? Any relationship with Henry would probably have to be secret and behind her mother's back, or there would be serious consequences for both her and Henry. And then there's the potential drama if she finds out that Henry's part of an operation to bring her mother down. Would she worry that he's only seeing her in order to get inside scoop on her mother or to weaken her mother's position? Even if the curse breaks, their problems wouldn't be solved because Victoria is still Lady Tremaine and wouldn't go for her daughter being with Henry, unless it was a way to get his heart (never mind the drama that he's apparently married to Ella). This stuff practically writes itself.

If they're trying to redo season one with Henry and Jacinda, then they need an obstacle, a reason they can't be together even though their souls cry out to each other that they're meant to be together (which is another problem -- I don't get anything like the sense of connection that Mary Margaret and David had, though it helped that we'd already seen Snow and Charming together as a couple, so we knew what they were missing when they were separated). Like, say, a man shows up just before Henry was about to ask Jacinda out, and it's Lucy's father (or the man the curse makes Jacinda believe is Lucy's father -- maybe the prince's younger brother Lady Tremaine mentioned?), who's just found out he has a daughter. But even that isn't an obstacle if Jacinda wants to be with Henry. So maybe since they were last together, he got his act together, went to law school, and is now a high-powered attorney, and he offers to help her get custody of Lucy away from Lady Tremaine (we'll just pretend that there's any sense whatsoever in that ridiculous situation), but part of that is them getting back together because there's no judge who'd keep a child out of a stable home with both biological parents, and so Jacinda has to choose between Henry and Lucy.

[Rumsy4]

1 hour ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

Ivy saying that Jacinda hopes Henry will be her baby daddy was strange. A "baby daddy" is a biological father, and I can't see why Ivy would think Jacinda wants Henry to get her pregnant again. Maybe the writers think it means 'play father to her child'. Which it doesn't.

My guess is that the writers don't know the difference between Sugar Daddy and Baby Daddy (just like they didn't know the difference between a conoration, effectively making baby Snowflake a king, and a simple naming ceremony).

42 minutes ago, Curio said:

Why did the writers take so much time to show Belle and Rumple living happy, normal lives together, but Emma's happy beginning is shoved to Offscreenville?

Because they were butthurt JMo decided to say adios. Ever since S6B, Emma has barely had any meaningful time-screen, unless it is shaking fingers or dying. 

[Camera One]

If Emma got this much screentime for Episode 2, that would have a real curtain call.  

I'm surprised fans were generally moved by this episode, because I would have hated it if they did this to Emma.  I'm not invested in Rumbelle and I still hated this fate for Belle.  The whole "she lived a happy life" doesn't make the ending satisfying for me.  I guess you can think of Wish Snowing being murdered as not that bad since they had a happy life, right?  

I'm thinking why I enjoyed parts of this episode, and I think it's because it was quieter and we saw characters living life.  We never see that beyond a montage.  

If Rumple was that desperate to become mortal, I have a hard time believing he would just wait out 30 or 40 years or however long that was.  What were his hobbies exactly?  I suppose Belle would just read and read and read, but did Rumple spin?  

And what about Super Magic Scholar Gideon?  Was he in on Belle's trick, because wasn't he reading books about ending The Dark One as well?  LOL when he casually asked if Rumple wanted to be stabbed.  No worries that Gideon wouldn't become Ultra Evil Dark One Number Five Billion?  We know he's easily corruptible.

How they hell did they get all the furniture to their new house without magic?  

"I didn't use the dagger once".  We've clearly seen Rumple doing magic without the dagger.  Is all magic bad?  Emma does magic, just good magic.

The pure of heart lines couldn't have just referred to the temporary pureness in 5A.  Rumple was described as a "good man" inside by both Tilly and Belle.  Which is not true.  Even if he is now the purest of all pures, just because, has he done a thing to redeem himself and to make amends to victims?  If anything, that's what Belle should have pressed for.

So now, there's The Guardian.  Too bad Merlin didn't know about him/her/it.

Edited October 28, 2017 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

So could the writers have killed Belle off at any time? Did Disney only approve because she died happily at an old age? They were many opportunities to write her off the show. I'm not sure why her story had to end like it did. Don't get me wrong - her character would indeed sacrifice herself for Rumple - but they were so many other avenues they could have taken a long time ago. We didn't need to wait until S7 for this. Gideon was ultimately pointless since Rumpbelle hardly interacted with him at all after he grew up. Outside of S6, he did squat for their character development.

Edited October 28, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

The "Dearie" thing at the end wasn't the huge bombshell that "Please" was in Season 1.  First of all, we've never seen Rumple interact with Lady Tremaine.  So I guess Tremaine/Victoria is unaware Weaver is awake.  

So Rumple met Alice on the same day Henry raced past on a motorcycle, and he immediately got her to lure Henry away from the ball because Rumple knew he shouldn't be getting involved in other realms' stories?  

How did Rumple "wake up"?  He didn't touch the cup.  Did seeing it make the difference?  Being called Rumplestiltskin?  Being shot?  Are we supposed to ask this question?  

The problem I have with people jumping on the ship of Hivy (or Hives) is we don't know how evil Drizella was.  If she's a murderess as well, we're back to the case of Robin/Regina or Belle/Rumple, where one character is pretty much irredeemable, yet we're supposed to rally behind them.  I suppose this formula was successful for CS, but frankly, it was a long road before I started liking that relationship and if it happens within a season, it would not work.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

The "Dearie" thing at the end wasn't the huge bombshell that "Please" was in Season 1.  First of all, we've never seen Rumple interact with Lady Tremaine.  So I guess Tremaine/Victoria is unaware Weaver is awake.  

I would have loved to hear one of his trademark Sparkly!Rumple giggles after she left. Although, they might implicate he's back to being a villain.

Quote

If she's a murderess as well, we're back to the case of Robin/Regina or Belle/Rumple, where one character is pretty much irredeemable, yet we're supposed to rally behind them.  I suppose this formula was successful for CS, but frankly, it was a long road before I started liking that relationship and if it happens within a season, it would not work.

If Ivy redeems herself, that would put her above Regina and Rumple. (Regina "redeemed" herself but killing Marian was never addressed.) But, that could take longer than a season.

Edited October 28, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Noneofyourbusiness]

44 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

Because they were butthurt JMo decided to say adios. Ever since S6B, Emma has barely had any meaningful time-screen, unless it is shaking fingers or dying. 

 

40 minutes ago, Camera One said:

If Emma got this much screentime for Episode 2, that would have a real curtain call.  

I prefer Emma's exit, because she's still alive and living happily offscreen.

[tessaray]

24 minutes ago, Camera One said:

How did Rumple "wake up"?  He didn't touch the cup.  Did seeing it make the difference?  Being called Rumplestiltskin?  Being shot?  Are we supposed to ask this question?  

 

I thought it was the sound of it breaking, when Alice threw it after it didn't work. I'd have to go back and rewatch but was sure there was something in Weaver's body language that the sound changed something. 

What I wasn't sure of the intent was Ghost Belle hovering. Did that mean he was at death's door or ?

[Camera One]

2 minutes ago, tessaray said:

What I wasn't sure of the intent was Ghost Belle hovering. Did that mean he was at death's door or ?

Allusion to The Great and Powerful Oz?

[oncebluethrone]

19 minutes ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

 

I prefer Emma's exit, because she's still alive and living happily offscreen.

Same here. I also didn't mind that Emma had less screen time than Belle in her last episode because it felt like more of a happy bonus to her story as opposed to an actual goodbye. I would take my otp living happily offscreen any day over a life montage that ends with half my ship dying. 

[CCTC]

3 hours ago, tessaray said:

Rumpbelle's happy interlude was kind of weirdly long for this show but I've never seen Up, so it just seemed cloying

I just re-watched the Up! sequence on youtube.  It isn't just a couple growing older in some ideal landscape, you see snippets of them dealing with life's troubles together - money issues, house problems, putting fantasy trips on hold, and even infertility.  It is not just them holding hands in the country side so it comes off as a little more real and having a bit  (or a lot)  more depth.

 

34 minutes ago, tessaray said:

What I wasn't sure of the intent was Ghost Belle hovering. Did that mean he was at death's door or ?

I think so, although I think it was largely just meant as a fake-out.   I am guessing at the end of the season something similar will happen and Rumple does go into the light and joins her.  On the other hand, it could have been their tribute to the cloud scene in The Lion King.

[tennisgurl]

Well, that was at least better than the last few episodes. I have been over Rumbelle for quite some time, given how disturbing and abusive I think it got, but Robert and Em really do have great chemistry and work wonders together. This episode really showcased that, even though I found much of it to be a little more twee and adorable than they have ever have been without really dealing with the MANY issues they have, but I admit that I enjoyed seeing a show that at least reminded me of the Once that I have spent all this time with. 

I did give some serious side eye whenever they said that Rumples heart was "pure" and what a good guy he is. I dont think he`s pure evil or anything, and he did apparently avoid evil for several years while he was with Belle, and presumably afterwards, so theres that, but lets not get too ridiculous. His heart isn't pure, and it doesn't need to be. At this point, he is trying to be a good guy, and while it would be better if he spent his time trying to help people and make up for his crimes, I can at least appreciate that he didn't slide back to his old ways, for once. Thats fine, they dont need to act like he was always a saint. Thats not how redemption works! 

I really like Tilly/Alice, although my heart will always belong to the Alice from Wonderland. The actress plays the character as unstable but also understandable, and the shout outs to Alice in Wonderland actually worked really well, and call back to when the show did that all the time in the first season, and continued on and off throughout the show. They were subtle, but not too subtle that you couldn't pick up on them. While most of the other Fairy tale characters just seem like random people with the names of famous characters, I do do buy her as Alice, and I liked pretty much everything with her this week. Plus, she is totally Rogers/WishHooks daughter, so I am excited to see more of them together. Also, the whole "Halloween masks as metaphors for the masks the Fairy tale characters wear in Hyperion Heights" is the first time I have actually been kind of interested in the double lives of the characters. 

I also liked Ivy alright, and she and Henry seem like an interesting combination. I dont ship it by any means, but they could be fun, and if they do it right, she could have a decent redemption arc. On the other hand, Victoria is still a super dull villain, who seems more like a high school Mean Girl than a real threat. Also, her spell kind of sucks if she has to keep people medicated to keep it up. I do wish we had more of an idea of how this curse worked, and who is and isn't affected by it. 

Yeah, the flashbacks to Rumpbbelle seemed very Up, but its hardly the first time this show has taken iconic imagery from other, better things, and at least the imagines were pretty this time. I am basically alright with Belle getting a longer send off than Emma, mainly because I didn't actually have to see Emma die. Belle seemed happy with how her life went, but i cant imagine Emma would be happy just living with Hook alone away from her family and friends. Granted, I wouldn't have thought Belle would be either, but living a long life and dying in the arms of her husband she finally got to stop murdering people for five freaking minutes is a not a bad wrap up in Once land. Although, when Belle told Rumple the truth about what the sun setting meant, and he was all "how could you not tell me?" I would have loved it if she replied "Yeah, sure does suck when your Significant other doesn't tell you big huge things that will affect them huh? I sure have no clue how THAT feels!" or something. 

Edited October 28, 2017 by tennisgurl

[Rumsy4]

3 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

The problem with the Henry/Ivy/Jacinda situation is that even if you go by the fact that chemistry is subjective and not everyone is going to agree that Henry has better chemistry with Ivy than with Jacinda, there's still more potential story with Ivy.

At least with Ivy, no one is pretending she's a hero or badass. And her interactions with Henry in HH seemed more genuine than Henry's one-sided crush on Cinders.  The old showing something vs telling us something else. Just like however much the writers pretend Rumple has a pure heart, it's not going to be true. If they want us to root for Cinderella and Henry, then show us why. Don't keep insisting they're some epic couple, but show nothing on-screen. In both flashbacks and present day, I don't see Cinders really caring about Henry. If they want us root for Cinderella show us why Lucy believes she is some leader of the people. Giving a cringey speech to save a sorry-looking community garden after first selling everyone out is not the same. 

The problem with the Rumbelle Happy Ending montage is that it is unrealistic. No matter how much in love they are, I have a hard time seeing Rumple and Belle living out an isolated life as something that would make them happy. What did they do all day other than read books and stare at each other? Did Belle have enough of travelling? What did Rumple do all day? Did they fill the Edge Realm with a town of cabins? The Beauty and The Beast Resort: if they had let it out as an idyllic holiday resort to travelers, at least that might have been something to do.  If you don't actually interact with any other human beings for several decades, other than the occasional visit from your son (who stayed younger as he was ageing differently), how does that grow you as a person? As is, I can't but see it as a sacrifice on Belle's part to contain the beast as long as possible. And once she's dead, then he gets the real test. Will he revert back to evil, or will he chose mortality over Power? And it's also an idiotic solution because as others have pointed out, all they needed to do was to go out into the Real World. Gold could die there. That was the whole point of Baelfire's original plan. Without magic, Gold's as mortal as anyone else. 

Edited October 28, 2017 by Rumsy4

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

And once she's dead, then he gets the real test. Will he revert back to evil, or will he chose mortality over Power?

Every time Rumple gains a moral compass person (Baelfire or Belle), that person either leaves or dies and Rumple reverts back to villainy. We have no good reason to believe this time is any different.

Quote

At least with Ivy, no one is pretending she's a hero or badass. And her interactions with Henry in HH seemed more genuine than Henry's one-sided crush on Cinders.  The old showing something vs telling us something else.

Ivy, Tiana, and Alice are all characters that weren't immediately shoved down our throats. They had no big expectations tied to them, so their inclusion was much more organic. Jacinda is meant to be the heroic Snow White, Victoria is the terrible Evil Queen, and Lucy is the believer with the heart of gold. These three characters have to fit their molds, otherwise the story falls apart. But, Ivy, Tiana, and Alice can do whatever the hell they want because the story doesn't revolve around how "epic" they are. They can just be themselves, which makes their writing more natural by design.

[Shanna Marie]

3 hours ago, Camera One said:

The problem I have with people jumping on the ship of Hivy (or Hives) is we don't know how evil Drizella was.  If she's a murderess as well, we're back to the case of Robin/Regina or Belle/Rumple, where one character is pretty much irredeemable, yet we're supposed to rally behind them. 

I wouldn't say I'm shipping them because that implies a degree of caring and emotional investment that doesn't exist. It's just that looking at it analytically, from what little we've seen so far, the character of Ivy is written and/or performed more engagingly than the character of Jacinda, she has more of a potential character arc, and there's more inherent conflict and story potential in the relationship between Henry and Ivy than there is in the relationship between Henry and Jacinda. I think a lot of the sense of chemistry comes from the fun of reading between the lines and looking for subtext to figure if something is going on there, while they just flat-out told us that Henry and Jacinda/Cinderella would be an epic love story (and didn't bother to develop it). People tend to get more invested in something they find or figure out for themselves than in what they're told they're going to love. At this point, Drizella is actually behind Cinderella on having done harm to Henry -- she was only moving on him threateningly before his parents showed up to save the day, while Cinderella has physically assaulted him. It remains to be seen whether or not she's evil enough to be irredeemable, or if she's more of a Hook, where she's done bad things but sees the light and feels remorse while trying to change.

I did feel like the conversations between Henry and Ivy had more honesty and vulnerability, which led to more of a sense of connection, than any interaction between Henry and Jacinda/Cinderella, probably because they were real character moments rather than "Look at our clever banter! See, they're really married but don't know it because of the curse! She's so sassy, such a Strong Female Character!"

2 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I did give some serious side eye whenever they said that Rumples heart was "pure" and what a good guy he is. I dont think he`s pure evil or anything, and he did apparently avoid evil for several years while he was with Belle, and presumably afterwards, so theres that, but lets not get too ridiculous.

I just have a hard time believing he could go cold turkey on evil like that. Every single time he's vowed to do better, he's slipped about thirty seconds later. He couldn't even resist evil when he'd had a total darkectomy and wasn't the Dark One. It doesn't seem like what happened at the end of season six was any different from any other time he's made one good choice before slipping all over again, so there's no reason for it to have stuck this time when it never has before. I suppose it might have stuck while they were living their isolated lives, since there were no temptations -- no magical objects that might give him ultimate power showed up, there were no other people to torture and torment -- but how did he make it before then? How did he make it to Gideon's first birthday? Or did he? It wouldn't be unusual for him to have tried some scheme behind Belle's back without her knowing.

[WordsWordsWords]

I have a few fairly random thoughts.

Andrew J. West is a pretty good actor, but he has no chemistry at all with the actor who plays Jacinda. None.

Robert Carlyle (and also Emilie de Ravin) really sold the heck out of their final scene. I'm not a Rumpbelle shipper, but I cried actual tears. I wasn't reacting to the storyline so much as the emotion showed by the actors which was plentiful.

About Henry's saying "could have went": I'm a copy editor and writer in my "real life." I winced. I also -- in my role as copy editor -- know how often actual novelists write exactly that sort of grammatical oops. Did it bother me? Yup. Did I think no writer would say it? Unfortunately, I have too much experience with writers to say that.

I'd still like to see a lot more Rogers. I want to see how Weaver will react to remembering who he really is.  Unless the show screws up more, I'm still here for the foreseeable future.

[Camera One]

1 minute ago, WordsWordsWords said:

About Henry's saying "could have went": I'm a copy editor and writer in my "real life." I winced. I also -- in my role as copy editor -- know how often actual novelists write exactly that sort of grammatical oops. Did it bother me? Yup. Did I think no writer would say it? Unfortunately, I have too much experience with writers to say that.

Henry is also a "writer" who hardly went to school.  He normally writes when he's sleeping.  So I suppose that could be the explanation for his grammatical errors.

[Star Aristille]

The big thing I came away from this episode thinking was "How much more abuse does poor Chip have to take?!"

That said, I have already moved past this week.  Next week looks awesome! Tiana-centric and bringing in Dr. Facilier?!  I'm in!

[Mabinogia]

12 hours ago, RedKeep said:

Alice is easily one of their best new additions, but I see some potential in Tiana too. Here's hoping they don't end up wasting most of it - in both cases.

I wish the show would focus on them. Alice was good this ep. I kind of liked Ivy too. Henry and Ivy were great. Henry and Regina were great. The glimpse we got of Hook was great. Hook and Alice was good. 

I pretty much zoned out whenever Rumbelle were on. I hate that pairing more than I have ever hated any pairing on any show. I love Belle (the real one, not this shows version) and hate what a co-dependent moron they made her into. I cheered when Alice broke the stupid cup. (and I LOVE Chip!) That said, I do hope Rumpy has his memories back, if just so something will fucking happen on the show already.

Can't wait to see Regina and Henry's reaction when they find out they are mother and son since there were sparks flying all over their scene. LOL 

[pezgirl7]

21 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

I was getting annoyed at so little Rogers, but then I reminded myself that Colin has a small child and a newborn at home, so he and his wife are probably perfectly okay with him working a couple of days a week. 

I meant more that Colin's acting skills were being underused. Rogers hasn't really had any interesting storylines which required serious acting. I doubt it's very satisfying for Colin as an actor. At least he gets to work with Bobby, who I know he enjoys working with.

[Rumsy4]

2 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

5 hours ago, Camera One said:

The problem I have with people jumping on the ship of Hivy (or Hives) is we don't know how evil Drizella was.  If she's a murderess as well, we're back to the case of Robin/Regina or Belle/Rumple, where one character is pretty much irredeemable, yet we're supposed to rally behind them. 

I wouldn't say I'm shipping them because that implies a degree of caring and emotional investment that doesn't exist. It's just that looking at it analytically, from what little we've seen so far, the character of Ivy is written and/or performed more engagingly than the character of Jacinda, she has more of a potential character arc, and there's more inherent conflict and story potential in the relationship between Henry and Ivy than there is in the relationship between Henry and Jacinda.

Same here. I don't ship Henry with either of the women right now. But I do see more of a potential between him and Ivy. We were joking about how Murderella is sort of like Regina. The parallels are closer with Ivy, tbh. She is like Regina/Zelena with Cora. Tremaine seems as power-hungry as Cora was, and both managed to acquire magic. No matter how badly they treat their daughters, they seem to crave their mother's approval. There are some possibilities for Ivy to evolve better than Regina at this point. But I don't really care all that much about Ivy as a character. I'm search down in the dregs to find something interesting about this season.

[VoicePlaya]

58 minutes ago, pezgirl7 said:

I meant more that Colin's acting skills were being underused. Rogers hasn't really had any interesting storylines which required serious acting. I doubt it's very satisfying for Colin as an actor. At least he gets to work with Bobby, who I know he enjoys working with.

I would love to know how Colin really feels about this season. Back during Comic Con, he seemed excited about this season. I know part of it was him doing his job promoting the show, but it felt like he was genuinely looking forward to getting to take on a new version of Hook. I think he said they'd only gotten the first two episodes by that point. It'd be interesting to hear if that's changed given how little he's had to do. Granted, maybe there's some good stuff for him coming up. I certainly hope so. But so far he doesn't seem to be getting the acting challenge he was looking forward to. Not that I'm expecting him to say anything about it if he's not happy with how things are going since that's not his style. But I am curious.

Edited October 29, 2017 by VoicePlaya
To fix spelling

[RulerofallIsurvey]

I just watched.  Haven't been through the comments yet.  Brief thoughts:

• I guess I'm glad (?) that Belle got her happy ending*.  I mean, I liked Belle.  I just thought she deserved better than Rumple, but that's what she wanted so...
• Enough with the Rumple has a 'pure heart' crap.  Just cause you say it over and over and over doesn't make it true.
• It does tick me off that they gave Belle, and Gideon for f's sake, a better, longer, send off than Emma and Hook.  Why the hell didn't we get any domestic scenes of Emma and Hook in storybrooke?  Both actresses were back for one ep.  Clearly A&E were ticked off at JMO.
• I'm thinking Alice is actually the White Rabbit.  That'd be a cool twist.  Otherwise, I'm not caring much about her.  And the over-use of "street rats" is annoying enough, but when I think about that it's being used to describe a homeless informant - ugh.
• I'm still kind of rooting for Ivy to be the real Cinderella.  She already has loads more chemistry with Henry than Jacinderella.  
• I'm not really caring much about anyone in this ep, not even Rogers.  
• The only thing slightly interesting is that it seems Rumple has his memories back and is still the Dark One.  Now who'd have thought I'd ever be rooting for him?

[Camera One]

12 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

• The only thing slightly interesting is that it seems Rumple has his memories back and is still the Dark One.  Now who'd have thought I'd ever be rooting for him?

Joke's on us.  A&E's goal was probably to force us to admit that Regina and Rumple are our favorite characters on a show, and now they pretty much are!

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Only the first page of comments done and I already have so many to which I want to respond:

On 10/27/2017 at 9:15 PM, InsertWordHere said:

If I didn’t know their true relationship, I’d think Roni was romantically interested in Henry, based on the body language Parrilla uses in scenes with him. 

I thought she was going to put her arm around him - in a non-motherly fashion - in that scene at the bar when she was dressed as Marilyn Monroe.  The camera cut away pretty quick I think, but it was a little creepy.

On 10/27/2017 at 9:16 PM, KingOfHearts said:

* I should have smirked at the Snow White costume, but it just made me miss Mary Margaret.

Same.  And then I got kind of mad at the show for putting obvious references in to characters we won't be seeing again.  

On 10/27/2017 at 9:54 PM, ParadoxLost said:

I didn't even remember that.   It just seems like if they decided that someone could be the Gaurdian of the dagger and end the Dark Curse that it would be Heart of the Truest Believer, Henry.

Oh god, watch it be Lucy.  They need something for her to do after all, after she gets her 'parents' back together again - like making Henry The Author.  

On 10/27/2017 at 10:12 PM, CCTC said:

On a positive note, I do think their final scene was touching and well acted and showed real emotion.  The actors connected well and it was the best acting I have seen Robert do in awhile.   

Really?  I'm not even being snarky here, because when I watched that scene, all I could see was the acting.  It looked like Robert was trying very hard.  But he just couldn't pull it off.  All the sad emotion and heartbreak I should have been seeing - Robert kept scrunching his face up like he was trying to make himself cry and yet his eyes were dry as a bone that's been out in the desert heat too long.  

23 hours ago, Writing Wrongs said:

What is the connection between the name Tilly and her being Alice?

Well, if she is Whook's daughter, a tiller on a boat is part of the steering mechanism.  

23 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

One possibility is that Alice met WHook's daughter in her travels and she taught her to play chess. Maybe she's the ex-girlfriend she remembers in her Curse memories. Buuut I think Alice is the daughter.

Yes, because the first part would be way too clever for this show.  

23 hours ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

Also, she said that she knew how losing a love like that could make a person want to give up on life,

She left out the part about sending a person into a dark abyss where you blame an innocent child and curse a whole land of innocent people in the name of revenge...

23 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

Couldn't she have gone on more adventures with her family and then come back to the Edge of Reason Realms to die? 

This made me legitimately laugh!  Best non-Freudian slip award!

21 hours ago, Camera One said:

What I love most about this show is all the useful romantic advice.  I've already written "Die for your man" into my notebook.

Move over Tammy Wynette, eh?  

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

Joke's on us.  A&E's goal was probably to force us to admit that Regina and Rumple are our favorite characters on a show, and now they pretty much are!

Oh God, you're right.  You are SO right.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

1 hour ago, Rumsy4 said:

Tremaine seems as power-hungry as Cora was, and both managed to acquire magic.

That reminds me; who's the head of the fairies in the New Enchanted Forest and why haven't they sent someone to take that wand back?

23 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

Gideon was such a non-entity this episode. It was all sooo perfect with him going off to some fairy tale academy and offering to kill his  dad and become the Dark One (there's the Gidiot we know).

The worst part of that was that from the way he said it, it wasn't even clear whether or not the writers remembered he'd have to *stab* his father with the dagger to take on its burden, not just be handed it and let Rumple die of old age.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

That reminds me; who's the head of the fairies in the New Enchanted Forest and why haven't they sent someone to take that wand back?

And how the heck does Tiger Lily connect to it?

[Camera One]

How old was Gideon supposed to be when he ran over the bridge?  

I seriously thought when Rumple threw the Dagger into the river, it would flow downstream, where Lady Tremaine would pick it up. 

Edited October 29, 2017 by Camera One

[RulerofallIsurvey]

14 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I just figured it was like the first season where little things began happening each episode to show that the curse was breaking down because of whatever Emma was doing.  For example, in the pilot where time started moving forward for Storybrooke, or how Regina's apples began browning.  In this episode, Alice stopped taking her medication as a way to show the curse was coming undone.     

But what was the catalyst for Alice regaining her memories?  That's what doesn't make sense to me, because as far as this episode; there was none.  Emma coming to Storybrooke in the first place is what started the clock ticking, if I recall.  Then her interactions with others, like Graham, is what made them start to remember.  There is nothing with this curse/season so far that I can figure out that would make people start believing.  Because Lucy does?  Henry did in S1 also, but once again, it wasn't until he brought Emma to town.  And I hope the show isn't trying to sell me that Henry being in HH is the equivalent, when he was only a few blocks away, not another city with a magical barrier to get through.  

12 hours ago, XrystalPond said:

If they wanted to do more jokes with the costumes, why not have her dress as a Disney character? Why not have Henry not liking apples for some unknown/random reason? That was a fun thing about the first curse - shout out/hold overs from their previous lives.

Haha - they should have had her dressed up as the evil queen from the animated movie!

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

I seriously thought when Rumple threw the Dagger into the river, it would flow downstream, where Lady Tremaine would pick it up. 

I was waiting for Alice to kill Rumple and become the new Dark One. DO!Alice would be so awesome. What if the curse had transformed the Dagger into something more conventional for Seattle, like a gun? That would have been interesting.

Edited October 29, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[legaleagle53]

2 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

• I'm thinking Alice is actually the White Rabbit.  That'd be a cool twist.  

Not possible.  We actually saw her chasing the White Rabbit when Rumpel interrupted by stepping through the portal to her realm when he did.  It's how he and this particular Alice met. She can't be the White Rabbit in Storybrooke Hyperion Heights, because she and the White Rabbit were clearly two separate and distinct entities in the other realm.

[Rumsy4]

57 minutes ago, Camera One said:

How old was Gideon supposed to be when he ran over the bridge?  

He looked adult. But they were writing him like he was ten.