S04.E04: Bleeding War

[AmandaPanda]

Quote

The race is on when Cookie announces that the number one album for Empire's 20-For-20 will be a competition between all of the label's top artists, giving Jamal a bold idea for his newest song. On the heels of Bella's first birthday, the family plans a special "Prince and Princesses"-themed birthday party, including a special Prince tribute, but the special day brings back haunting memories for one of the Lyons. Meanwhile, Lucious is at a crossroads, as he tries to put to rest the anger from his past life.

[Dee]

That was AMAZING.

[SimoneS]

Lucious is going to end up marrying that nurse before he regains his memory and personality. She is so manipulative. I kind of feel sorry for her though because he is going to beat her ass down at some point. She has no idea what she is in for.

Poor Andre.. He really is an afterthought in that family and when they find out that he was behind the bomb it is going to get worse.

I loved the Prince birthday party for Bella. It was so much fun and I loved the costumes.

Jamal's boyfriend annoys me so much that I couldn't enjoy their duet and I have been wanting Jamal to have men involved in his performances for so long..

Edited October 19, 2017 by SimoneS

[mtlchick]

Well I guess it's a good thing they got Prince's sister's blessing (and a cameo) to use the name and symbol because that version of Let's Go Crazy was...strange.  Did think Cookie's ensemble was awesome. 

Here's something I never thought I say: I am deeply intrigued at Lucious' zen like attitude.  The old version would have told the singer "Your brother got shot up? MEH.  You're here to work so forget that noise."  Now it's "Oh no.  Go.  Take time off and come back."  But once Lucious comes back around and that Nurse Demi was manipulating his thoughts more towards her, I'm going to be SO. DAMN. STOKED. 

 

Finally I learned the word "Catamite."  Who says this show isn't educational? 

[Artsda]

I loved that Andre got to call out Anika, she deserves to go back to jail for killing Andre's child. She has some nerve filing for sole custody when she's a baby killer and knows it.

Edited October 19, 2017 by Artsda

[Joimiaroxeu]

A Prince-themed birthday party for a one-year old. I dunno about that. It was nice that they managed to honor Prince though. Loved Cookie's outfit.

Looks like maybe Jamal's honey-potting lover is starting to catch feelings. Maybe he'll get a conscience and tell Jamal what's really going on wrt the Dubois vendetta against the Lyons.

[SuzieQ]

I'm having trouble with this whole season.  There have been moments or scenes that were good, but this whole Dwight /Lucious "finding himself" thing is kind of a snoozefest for me.  I want the old Lucious back!

[Biggie B]

I have to wonder why the inner circle at Empire hasn't been told about Lucious' memory loss - people like Becky and Thirsty. They're both shrewd enough not to blab, and would be able to appropriately guide Lucious' interactions when he visits the office or appears in public. And at this point, doesn't Porsha probably know what's up as well? Granted, she might let it slip but on the other hand, she's pretty loyal. I hope this part of the story line begins to resolve soon, as it's getting a bit wearisome. Part of what makes Lucious such a compelling character is his cold-blooded, evil moments. Sort of like Tony Soprano - he was capable of very, very bad things, yet you couldn't get enough of him. I am assuming that at some point, Lucious will regain at least a good chunk of his memory - otherwise, the show will be something very different. Besides - I want a Lucious/Diana show down! 

Anika looked beautiful throughout this episode. 

[Empress1]

13 hours ago, Artsda said:

I loved that Andre got to call out Anika, she deserves to go back to jail for killing Andre's child. She has some nerve filing for sole custody when she's a baby killer and knows it.

She literally destroyed two people BY KILLING THEM and has the nerve to talk about the Lyons destroying everything they touch. I hope Andre tells the truth at her custody hearings.

Andre's family really does treat him like shit. It's awful.

[Dee]

I love Andre but he's as full of shit as he claims the rest of his family is.

First, he has no right to be pointing fingers at anyone seeing as he just tried, unsuccessfully, to murder his father, in a harebrained scheme that almost also claimed his mother, as well, in the process.

Second, while Anika was directly responsible for death of Andre & Rhonda's child, Rhonda's death was on Rhonda. She was the one who attacked Anika, and proceeded to fight BooBooKitty to the, literal, death because she sought vengeance. Anika certainly has as much blood on her hands as anyone else, but she didn't initiate the balcony brawl, nor should she blamed for defending herself.

Third, Andre knows full well Rhonda, herself, was a murderer AND that she had no problem utilizing said murder, at several different points in their relationship, to bully Andre into compliance/subservience. His issues surrounding his marriage, after the fact, is his guilt to bear, not for projecting onto everyone else.

Fourth, for all of Andre's bitching about the rest of the family's preoccupation with keeping secrets, he had absolutely NO problem understanding, accepting and assisting with the family's aforementioned secret keeping when his mother & brother's respective worlds were being obliterated. Yes, it's sad that the family forgot the anniversary of Rhonda's death, and how it coincided with Bella's birth, but they certainly weren't actively attempting to be malicious. Nor did any of them, aside from Lucious, nurse any grudges toward Rhonda; which is ironic, considering how much she loathed them.

Fifth, Andre loves to act as if the family excludes him. Yet they spent all of last season, in various ways, comforting and reassuring him that he was loved, cherished and needed. Were they always perfect about it? No. But Andre constantly judges his family much more harshly than he ever does himself (or Rhonda).

Sixth, for someone who has been granted constant free passes for throwing family under the bus, Andre has no concept of the meaning of charity. Is what Anika did unforgivable? Arguably. But if he wants to prioritize his pain, over grace, he has no right to be angry when others do the same.

[journalism16]

Everything Anika has done is deplorable, and she shouldn't have custody of Bella after having killed Andre and Rhonda's son, and then Rhonda herself. She deserves absolutely nothing, and I hope Hakeem gets sole custody of their daughter.

[Neurochick]

2 hours ago, Dee said:

Second, while Anika was directly responsible for death of Andre & Rhonda's child, Rhonda's death was on Rhonda. She was the one who attacked Anika, and proceeded to fight BooBooKitty to the, literal, death because she sought vengeance. Anika certainly has as much blood on her hands as anyone else, but she didn't initiate the balcony brawl, nor should she blamed for defending he

If Anika hadn't killed Rhonda's baby then Rhonda wouldn't have sought vengeance.   So yes, Anika was a murderer TWO times.  Too bad she didn't go over that balcony.

[Dee]

1 hour ago, Neurochick said:

If Anika hadn't killed Rhonda's baby then Rhonda wouldn't have sought vengeance.   So yes, Anika was a murderer TWO times.  Too bad she didn't go over that balcony.

No. Anika was a murderer ONCE.

However, Rhonda never had any solid proof Anika pushed her, or she wouldn't have had to attack Anika on the balcony in the first place.

Also, if Rhonda had the 'right' to "seek vengeance" then Anika was justified in defending herself.

It's not Anika's fault Rhonda sucks at fighting.

Edited October 19, 2017 by Dee

[Vixenstud]

Loved the Let's Go Crazy performance, it felt like Prince was there....didn't like Cookie's wig though and poor Bella was looking like 'People, I'm just a year old!  I'm not going to remember this shit, where's the cake at?!'

Now, I loves me some Jussie, but am I the only one not impressed with his voice?  It always sounds like it is heavily auto-tuned.  And is Warren an actual singer ‘cause he was pretty good.

I still believe that Lucious is faking, cain’t shake this feeling in my gut.

[Margohill]

This episode had it's highs and lows for me but it was OK albeit painful at times.

THE GOOD

Cookie's flash backs of her time in jail were compelling and sad to see how much she sacrificed for her family to make them better which makes it more upsetting how Lucious can have amnesia and forget about all this.

The 20 for 20 was a riot and Cookie handled it like a boss. Tiana was hot, hot, hot, and Lucious's compassionate and tender attitude towards the contestant was quite bizarre and good but coming from the Lucious that we've always known, it felt very strange. It's amazing how he could sense pain and hurt in people quite distinctly. 

The Prince tribute was good and everyone was on point in their customes. I thought Bella, Cookie and Jamal really nailed the prince look. However, I think it was just not fitting for a 1 year old birthday party. They could have tied this tribute to another event not a 1 year old birthday party JMHO. I just felt Bella could have been much happier jumping around at a "Chuck-e-cheeses" with her little friends LOL!!!

THE BAD 

Lucious's amnesia seems to be dragging on and people are really starting to miss the old Lucious Lyon. Please hurry up Lucious and get your memory back.

As someone said above, people like Becky, Porsha and Thirsty should have been told about Lucious's amnesia. These are people who have been very close to him and would have done everything to protect him. Becky especially was one of the first people who discovered in S1 that Lucious was getting treatment for ALS and kept it secret. She should have been told about this. Now they will probably find out from the press. Too bad.

What is that nurse still doing around Lucious? Demi Moore is killing the ratings for this show. Notice how last week the ratings were up when Felicia Rashad was on and she was off? Someone needs to get rid of her storyline. So far, it has added nothing. JMHO

THE UGLY

Andre I agree has been treated badly by the Lyons while Anika has not paid for her crimes and I will elaborate on this. Anyone can argue all they want but there is a difference between how the audience views the story as it plays out and what the writers THINK they are portraying.

I can't believe for one thing that the Lyons are off partying away without remembering that it was the anniversary of the loss of Andre's wife after the loss of his baby. Andre had to remind them. THAT WAS COLD.

Anyone can blame Andre for trying to kill his father all they want but if you watch your father sleep with your wife's and baby's killer without a care in the world, I would want to kill my father too. Human feelings can never be underestimated.

Some can say the family has shown sympathy to Andre but AS A VIEWER, that is not what I have seen. They have shown some sympathy here and there, but they were not there for him when his wife and baby died and still don't seem to care about the loss he has suffered as a family member. This is not meant as a criticism but simply what I as the viewer has taken away from this show.

I think the storyline with Anika killing both Rhonda and her baby and got away with it, has disillusioned a lot of fans and made Anika some sort of a turn-off for a lot of people.

Rhonda killing their uncle was ACCIDENTAL because she was trying to save her husband from being strangled to death. Anika killing their baby was CAREFULLY PLANNED AND WELL ORCHESTRATED and she got away with it.

Anika asking for sole custody was plain ridiculous. After all she has done, where does she get the audacity to ask for sole custody? Does she even remember that she killed another woman's baby?

At the end of the day, we can all argue and take sides but what the viewer perceives from the story that plays out CAN NEVER be changed by what someone else THINKS it should be seen as. The story plays out, we watch and take away from it what we see. We can either like it or not but IT IS WHAT IT IS.

I think Andre continues to be treated badly by his family and I was touched when he went off on them and he had EVERY RIGHT to do so.

There......I spoke my mind but it's JMHO.

Edited October 22, 2017 by Margohill

[Dee]

55 minutes ago, Vixenstud said:

I still believe that Lucious is faking, cain’t shake this feeling in my gut.

Why do you still believe he's faking? The show has clearly delineated he's lost his memory. If Lucious was pulling a long con he wouldn't be nearly as careless imo.

[Syndicate]

59 minutes ago, Vixenstud said:

Loved the Let's Go Crazy performance, it felt like Prince was there....didn't like Cookie's wig though and poor Bella was looking like 'People, I'm just a year old!  I'm not going to remember this shit, where's the cake at?!'

Now, I loves me some Jussie, but am I the only one not impressed with his voice?  It always sounds like it is heavily auto-tuned.  And is Warren an actual singer ‘cause he was pretty good.

I still believe that Lucious is faking, cain’t shake this feeling in my gut.

Terrell Carter (Warren) is very much a professional singer who has cut a few albums. In an interview, he calls himself a singer first and an actor second. It's unfortunate that he seems to be not too famous as a singer, because he really is THAT good.

[Dee]

He'd probably be more famous these days if he hadn't been outed several years ago.

[phoenics]

I hate Demi Moore's character.  I can't take stupid soap plots like this.  Love everything else on this show though.  Maybe whenLucious gets his memory back I'll have the satisfaction of seeing Lucious destroy Claudia.  After Cookie gets a chance.  I knew she was gonna steal Cookie's lion statue idea.  So she's apparently planting memories with Lucious now?  I hate this.

[AmandaPanda]

That baby could not look more bored by her first birthday party. 

[Neurochick]

4 hours ago, Dee said:

Why do you still believe he's faking? The show has clearly delineated he's lost his memory. If Lucious was pulling a long con he wouldn't be nearly as careless imo.

At first I thought it was faking too, but I think his memory loss is real.  However, I got the feeling he might have gotten his memory back when he saw that lion.

 

5 hours ago, Margohill said:

I think the storyline with Anika killing both Rhonda and her baby and gotten away with it has disillusioned a lot of fans and made Anika some sort of a turn-off for a lot of people.

I agree with this.  I think the show made a big mistake when they had Anika push Rhonda down the stairs because she wanted Rhonda to lose her baby.  Anika shouldn't demand ANYTHING from the Lyons at all after what she did.  There's just something so awful about a person causing a woman to lose her baby, and then Anika doesn't pay for that crime at all.

[Empress1]

4 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

I agree with this.  I think the show made a big mistake when they had Anika push Rhonda down the stairs because she wanted Rhonda to lose her baby.  Anika shouldn't demand ANYTHING from the Lyons at all after what she did.  There's just something so awful about a person causing a woman to lose her baby, and then Anika doesn't pay for that crime at all.

I agree too. It's egregious and it just looks crazy for her to be around Andre at all and for him to just take it. She murdered his family. Like, Phylicia Rashad's character talks about how Cookie ruined Angelo, but Angelo is still alive, you know? And still rich, and apparently still practicing law. His political career may be over, but his life is not. And Phylicia Rashad is hell-bent on trying to get revenge on the Lyons for what they did to him. Andre's family is dead because of Anika and Andre is supposed to just be civil to her? Nobody is trying to take her down? Cookie fusses over Bella, her grandbaby, but Anika murdered her other grandchild. Cookie is just cool with that, with Anika causing her son that much pain when she's supposed to be this warrior for her family? It doesn't make sense. It's a big flaw in the writing. Rhonda's death was handled really poorly overall, I think.

[Margohill]

20 minutes ago, Empress1 said:

Andre's family is dead because of Anika and Andre is supposed to just be civil to her? Nobody is trying to take her down? Cookie fusses over Bella, her grandbaby, but Anika murdered her other grandchild. Cookie is just cool with that, with Anika causing her son that much pain when she's supposed to be this warrior for her family? It doesn't make sense. It's a big flaw in the writing. Rhonda's death was handled really poorly overall, I think.

BINGO, BINGO, BINGO!!!! That's the whole point.

That's the biggest flaw a lot of viewers see which is very difficult to overlook. It sticks out like a sore thumb in the writing of this show. That is what A LOT OF VIEWERS SEE and it was a very painful storyline to see a pregnant woman get pushed down the stairs so viciously and loses her baby and ends up getting killed by the same assailant. The assailant is walking around free and confident enough to make demands. SMH  Lucious knew about Anika pushing Rhonda but still took her in and slept with her with no care, and yet Andre is supposed to be nice to his father??? GTHOH

Prayers, prayers, prayers for poor Andre. 

[Syndicate]

5 hours ago, Dee said:

He'd probably be more famous these days if he hadn't been outed several years ago.

I will be forever convinced that this is what did him in. So much for vindictive ex-lovers. SMH!

 

4 hours ago, phoenics said:

I hate Demi Moore's character.  I can't take stupid soap plots like this.  Love everything else on this show though.  Maybe whenLucious gets his memory back I'll have the satisfaction of seeing Lucious destroy Claudia.  After Cookie gets a chance.  I knew she was gonna steal Cookie's lion statue idea.  So she's apparently planting memories with Lucious now?  I hate this.

I'm not as hard on Ms. Moore's character as many seem to be. I suppose I'm embracing or maybe just tolerating her because she is adding an element of soap opera style mystery. We really don't know who she is or what she's after, and she's after SOMETHING, that much is certain. I still think she could be on Madam DuBois's payroll.

[journalism16]

6 hours ago, Margohill said:

This episode had it's highs and lows for me but it was OK albeit painful at times.

THE GOOD

Cookie's flash backs of her time in jail were compelling and sad to see how much she sacrificed for her family to make them better which makes it more upsetting how Lucious can have amnesia and forget about all this.

The 20 for 20 was a riot and Cookie handled it like a boss. Tiana was hot, hot, hot, and Lucious's compassionate and tender attitude towards the contestant was quite bizarre and good but coming from the Lucious that we've always known, it felt very strange. It's amazing how he could sense pain and hurt in people quite distinctly. 

The Prince tribute was good and everyone was on point in their customes. I thought Bella, Cookie and Jamal really nailed the prince look. However, I think it was just not fitting for a 1 year old birthday party. They could have tied this tribute to another event not a 1 year old birthday party JMHO. I just felt Bella could have been much happier jumping around at a "Chuck-e-cheeses" with her little friends LOL!!!

THE BAD 

Lucious's amnesia seems to be dragging on and people are really starting to miss the old Lucious Lyon. Please hurry up Lucious and get your memory back.

As someone said above, people like Becky, Porsha and Thirsty should have been told about Lucious's amnesia. These are people who have been very close to him and would have done everything to protect him. Becky especially was one of the first people who discovered in S1 that Lucious was getting treatment for ALS and kept it secret. She should have been told about this. Now they will probably find out from the press. Too bad.

What is that nurse still doing around Lucious? Demi Moore is killing the ratings for this show. Notice how last week the ratings were up when Felicia Rashad was on and she was off? Someone needs to get rid of her storyline. So far, it has added nothing. JMHO

THE UGLY

Andre I agree has been treated badly by the Lyons while Anika has not paid for her crimes and I will elaborate on this. Anyone can argue all they want but there is a difference between how the audience views the story as it plays out and what the writers THINK they are portraying.

I can't believe for one thing that the Lyons are off partying away without remembering that it was the anniversary of the loss of Andre's wife after the loss of his baby. Andre had to remind them. THAT WAS COLD.

Anyone can blame Andre for trying to kill his father all they want but if you watch your father sleep with your wife's and baby's killer without a care in the world, I would want to kill my father too. Human feelings can never be underestimated.

Some can say the family has shown sympathy to Andre but AS A VIEWER, that is not what I have seen. They have shown some sympathy here and there, but they were not there for him when his wife and baby died and still don't seem to care about the loss he has suffered as a family member. This is not meant as a criticism but simply what I as the viewer has taken away from this show.

I think the storyline with Anika killing both Rhonda and her baby and gotten away with it has disillusioned a lot of fans and made Anika some sort of a turn-off for a lot of people.

Rhonda killing their uncle was ACCIDENTAL because she was trying to save her husband from being strangled to death. Anika killing their baby was CAREFULLY PLANNED AND WELL ORCHESTRATED and she got away with it.

Anika asking for sole custody was plain ridiculous. After all she has done, where does she get the audacity to ask for sole custody? Does she even remember that she killed another woman's baby?

At the end of the day, we can all argue and take sides but what the viewer perceives from the story that plays out CAN NEVER be changed by what someone else THINKS it should be seen as. The story plays out, we watch and take away from it what we see. We can either like it or not but IT IS WHAT IT IS.

I think Andre continues to be treated badly by his family and I was touched when he went off on them and he had EVERY RIGHT to do so.

There......I spoke my mind but it's JMHO.

I definitely agree with everything you said in the post especially about the ugly. I agree with everything you said about Anika. She has some nerve asking for sole custody of their daughter and Hakeem deserves to have custody of her. She has left a sour taste in my mouth since Season 2, and she has greatly annoyed me since Season 1, save for Hakeem as well. She does not deserve custody of their daughter, but Hakeem definitely does.

Edited October 20, 2017 by journalism16

[Dee]

None of the Lyons are actively seeking justice for Rhonda because Rhonda couldn't prove her allegations. That's the key.

Also, again, Rhonda is NOT dead because of Anika. Rhonda, the murderer, is dead because of RHONDA.

It's ironic how Rhonda is being canonized in death, when she was every bit as dirty as everyone else in her family, in life.

And it's not as if any of the Lyons were particularly close to Anika, besides Lucious, after Rhonda's death.

In fact, the Lyons were willing to kill her, because she was proving to be a liability. It was only after Anika reaffirmed her loyalty that the Lyons rewarded her, and even then, they didn't fully reintegrate her back into the family.

Hakeem, who was arguably the closest to Anika besides Lucious in the family, never even tries to fix things with his former ally.

The Lyons, like the DuBois family, were fine with letting Anika cool her heels in jail, until she threatened to snitch.

So, no, it isn't a case of 'bad writing.' It's incredibly complex writing and character development, that doesn't unnecessarily reduce extremely grey situations to black or white dichotomies.

 

2 hours ago, Syndicate said:

I'm not as hard on Ms. Moore's character as many seem to be. I suppose I'm embracing or maybe just tolerating her because she is adding an element of soap opera style mystery. We really don't know who she is or what she's after, and she's after SOMETHING, that much is certain. I still think she could be on Madam DuBois's payroll.

Exactly. Claudia is a fly in the ointment, but if it wasn't her, it would be someone else.

Edited October 20, 2017 by Dee

[Margohill]

Let's be as realistic as we can.

25 minutes ago, Dee said:

None of the Lyons are actively seeking justice for Rhonda because Rhonda couldn't prove her allegations. That's the key

Not true. Lucious the grand master of the Lyons who was so happy about Rhonda's pregnancy and expecting a grandchild, KNEW that Anika had pushed Rhonda down the stairs and killed that grandbaby. Did he seek revenge? NO. What he did was, he took her in and was sleeping with her. Made no sense.

27 minutes ago, Dee said:

Also, again, Rhonda is NOT dead because of Anika. Rhonda, the murderer, is dead because of RHONDA.

If we have to actually acknowledge actual human feelings, Rhonda fought Anika because she wanted to avenge her child's death just as ANY OTHER MOTHER would do especially since not a single person believed her that Anika was the babykiller. 

29 minutes ago, Dee said:

It's ironic how Rhonda is being canonized in death, when she was every bit as dirty as everyone else in her family, in life.

Rhonda is canonized in death because THE WRITING made it so. Her baby's death was tragic, her death was tragic and none of the deaths have been avenged. People can't help themselves but feel sorry for Rhonda especially watching Anika strutting her stuff around and barking orders as if she was clean. Anika is the worst for being a baby-killer. 

32 minutes ago, Dee said:

In fact, the Lyons were willing to kill her, because she was proving to be a liability. It was only after Anika reaffirmed her loyalty that the Lyons rewarded her, and even then, they didn't fully reintegrate her back into the family.

How in the world can you reward someone who kills your grandbaby, just how?? And to bring her back into the family with Andre the victim watching all this?? How is anyone expected to feel when their family welcomes back into their home the person responsible for killing their baby and their wife? As someone mentioned above, Mrs. Dubois is running around trying to make the Lyons pay dearly just simply because Cookie dumped her son and the Lyons can't avenge the killing of their own grandchild? The way the Lyons ganged up together to face the Dubois when Bella was taken from their care, it would have made more sense if they had reacted even worse to the killing of their grandchild. Again it makes no sense.

39 minutes ago, Dee said:

Hakeem, who was arguably the closest to Anika besides Lucious in the family, never even tries to fix things with his former ally.

Hakeem was extremely irresponsible when he got Anika pregnant and Anika should have known better. No surprise that he didn't care to patch things up with her. He never loved her in the first place.

40 minutes ago, Dee said:

The Lyons, like the DuBois family, were fine with letting Anika cool her heels in jail, until she threatened to snitch.

She threatened to snitch but she had no proof. Thirsty can take care of any problem. He could have found a way to shut her down if he wanted to just as he found a way to get Lucious out of jail and shut down the case against Anika. Another flaw in the writing.

43 minutes ago, Dee said:

So, no, it isn't a case of 'bad writing.' It's incredibly complex writing and character development, that doesn't unnecessarily reduce extremely grey situations to black or white dichotomies.

IMO it seems more like a case of "BIASED WRITING" because there is no reason why the story couldn't have gone in a more realistic and believable way. After-all, the writers write what they want and we the viewers see what we see. All we can do is express what we take from the story. That's all.

Again it's JMHO.

[Dee]

Quote

Not true. Lucious the grand master of the Lyons who was so happy about Rhonda's pregnancy and expecting a grandchild, KNEW that Anika had pushed Rhonda down the stairs and killed that grandbaby. Did he seek revenge? NO. What he did was, he took her in and was sleeping with her. Made no sense.

Lucious does NOT claim to know, or even believe, Anika is responsible for pushing Rhonda until AFTER Rhonda accuses Anika, which is long after Rhonda/Andre's baby is dead.

By which point, Rhonda cannot prove her allegations and Anika is expecting another Lyon heir. The only reason Anika was even at the wedding, in the first place, was because the Lyons were trying to keep her stashed away.

Also, even with the pregnancy, Lucious was never Rhonda's biggest fan, so it wasn't a mystery as to which side Lucious was ever on.

Quote

If we have to actually acknowledge actual human feelings, Rhonda fought Anika because she wanted to avenge her child's death just as ANY OTHER MOTHER would do especially since not a single person believed her that Anika was the babykiller. 

No, if Rhonda killing Vernon counts as 'self defense,' as you assert, then Anika fending off Rhonda's attacks also counts as self defense.

Rhonda attacking an extremely pregnant woman, on a balcony, with no proof, just wild accusations was the epitome of reckless.

Had she been more pragmatic about seeking her revenge, there's a good chance she might still be alive today.

Quote

Rhonda is canonized in death because THE WRITING made it so. Her baby's death was tragic, her death was tragic and none of the deaths have been avenged. People can't help themselves but feel sorry for Rhonda especially watching Anika strutting her stuff around and barking orders as if she was clean. Anika is the worst for being a baby-killer. 

Rhonda is canonized in death because a certain subsection of fans have decided that 'Poor Andre,' and by extension 'Poor Rhonda,' is an acceptable meme, but that is revisionist history at best.

Andre has put nearly every member of his family in harm's way, with Rhonda's tacit approval, to suit their own selfish ambitions.

Anika wasn't strutting around barking orders. She's spent the last five months in jail, a situation neither the Lyons nor the DuBois had much of a problem with, and she only got out because she threatened to cause more problems the rest of the Lyon family had neither the time or energy to deal with, so they reluctantly acquiesced.

The Lyons included a newly released Anika for Bella's birthday party, because she's Bella's mother, but they had absolutely no plans to bring her into their inner circle.

And Andre throwing a tantrum about Anika being dirty, in that particular moment, is the height of hypocrisy; especially since she was aiming her vitriol, at them time, squarely at Lucious (the man who Andre, himself, had just attempted to murder).

Quote

How in the world can you reward someone who kills your grandbaby, just how?? And to bring her back into the family with Andre the victim watching all this?? How is anyone expected to feel when their family welcomes back into their home the person responsible for killing their baby and their wife? As someone mentioned above, Mrs. Dubois is running around trying to make the Lyons pay dearly just simply because Cookie dumped her son and the Lyons can't avenge the killing of their own grandchild? The way the Lyons ganged up together to face the Dubois when Bella was taken from their care, it would have made more sense if they had reacted even worse to the killing of their grandchild. Again it makes no sense.

Again, Rhonda had no proof. The Lyons didn't "bring Anika back into the family." Lucious even says as much when Cookie questions his intentions toward Anika.

And initially Anika's sole purpose of being back in the Lyon orbit was to be a mother to Bella, which morphed into a gross sexual relationship with Lucious, however nobody else in the family welcomed her back with open arms; except Becky & Tiana, and that was at work.  

Lucious gifts Anika a healthy divorce settlement because she proved her loyalty by dealing with Tariq, and by extension the feds; but that was the extent of his charity.

Diana is attempting to make Cookie pay for her and Angelo's mistakes. It's not Cookie's fault that Diana refused to do her own dirty work and/or Angelo couldn't control his own emotions. But, as she did with Lake-Gate, instead of of accepting any personal responsibility, Diana has made the Lyons convenient targets.

Also, it's not as if Anika was attempting to takeover. She was simply content playing her position and she proved her loyalty like everybody in the Lyon family; who, except Hakeem, is various levels of dirty.

Quote

Hakeem was extremely irresponsible when he got Anika pregnant and Anika should have known better. No surprise that he didn't care to patch things up with her. He never loved her in the first place.

They were both irresponsible. But Anika was the one who chose to conceal her pregnancy. Hakeem had no reason to believe Anika would be pregnant.

They had an extremely close relationship that morphed into a mutually beneficial arrangement that a shortsighted Anika played herself over.

The fact that Anika ended up becoming the proverbial golden goose was just sheer luck and a bit of ruthless cunning on her end.

Quote

She threatened to snitch but she had no proof. Thirsty can take care of any problem. He could have found a way to shut her down if he wanted to just as he found a way to get Lucious out of jail and shut down the case against Anika. Another flaw in the writing.

Thirsty is a great lawyer but he isn't a magician.

Anika may have had no proof about Bunkie's murder but she had enough potential info about assorted Lyon affairs to make the Lyons lives miserable enough that they decided to spring her so she wouldn't be one more headache they couldn't afford to deal with.

That's solid writing.

Quote

IMO it seems more like a case of "BIASED WRITING" because there is no reason why the story couldn't have gone in a more realistic and believable way. After-all, the writers write what they want and we the viewers see what we see. All we can do is express what we take from the story. That's all.

Actually it's not biased writing at all. In fact they've even left themselves room enough to retcon things if they choose to at a later date.

But again, it's never been a question of evil vs. good but intense shades of gray.

Everybody in the Lyon family, except Hakeem, has blood on their hands.

But most of that blood comes from protecting each other. Except in Andre's case because he never considers anyone but himself.

 

Since we clearly disagree we should drop the particular topic altogether.

Edited October 20, 2017 by Dee

[Kaiju Ballet]

12 hours ago, Vixenstud said:

Now, I loves me some Jussie, but am I the only one not impressed with his voice?  It always sounds like it is heavily auto-tuned.  And is Warren an actual singer ‘cause he was pretty good.

ITA! I like him best when he's dueting with someone else (my fave JS song still is "Powerful" with Alicia Keys.) Warren was killing it as a singer, and his acting chops aren't too shabby either!

On a completely shallow note, the tiger stripe confection that Cookie was wearing during the competition was stunning.

[jay741982]

21 hours ago, Dee said:

No. Anika was a murderer ONCE.

However, Rhonda never had any solid proof Anika pushed her, or she wouldn't have had to attack Anika on the balcony in the first place.

Also, if Rhonda had the 'right' to "seek vengeance" then Anika was justified in defending herself.

It's not Anika's fault Rhonda sucks at fighting.

Anika's bitch ass told Rhonda she pushed her down the stairs and for a stupid insane greedy reason. Anika can fuck off acting like she s better than them or Rhonda. She desrves horrible things happening with her baby killing ass

[Dee]

5 minutes ago, jay741982 said:

Anika's bitch ass told Rhonda she pushed her down the stairs

That never happened.

[Empress1]

47 minutes ago, Dee said:

That never happened.

Yes it did. I mean, Anika didn't say "I pushed you down the stairs," but it's not hard to connect the dots based on what Anika says in this clip. 

[Dee]

She never admits to it directly. That's a VERY important distinction.

Anika's accused of pushing Rhonda, three separate times; yet even in private, when she has nothing to lose, she never admits it.

If wild accusations are all Rhonda had to support her claims, she deserved to fall over the balcony.

Edited October 20, 2017 by Dee

[Empress1]

I'll agree to disagree.

[Dee]

There's a reason the rest of the family, including Andre, didn't support Rhonda at the time.

Was she wrong in wanting revenge? No. Was she wrong in how she went about it? Yes.

[Margohill]

2 minutes ago, Dee said:

There's a reason the rest of the family, including Andre, didn't support Rhonda at the time.

Which makes Rhonda's story even more tragic and for fans to have more sympathy for her. There is nothing worse than to lose your baby in such a tragic manner that Rhonda did. Worse off, the Lyons did not rally around to support her and find who pushed her down the stairs and killed her baby, Yet we see the Lyons supporting Anika and rallying around her to find out who had baby Bella taken from their care. Worse off, Anika was part of the diabolical plan to snatch Bella out of the Lyon's house. Yet it was better for Rhonda to have fallen off that balcony? Who is the real evil player here? I say Anika and she deserves to rot in jail.

JMHO

[Neurochick]

I am confused as to why Dee is so in love with Anika.  

[Dee]

18 minutes ago, Margohill said:

Which makes Rhonda's story even more tragic and for fans to have more sympathy for her.

That doesn't make Rhonda's story tragic at all. Especially since Rhonda was never above killing and endangering innocent people herself.

Quote

Worse off, the Lyons did not rally around to support her and find who pushed her down the stairs and killed her baby

Again, the Lyons did not rally around her because she had no evidence. Not because they didn't like her. That's a crucial difference.

Quote

Yet we see the Lyons supporting Anika and rallying around her to find out who had baby Bella taken from their care.

The Lyons gathered together for Bella. Not Anika.

There isn't a single moment after Bella is taken that any of the Lyons, besides Hakeem who happens to be Bella's father, are shown supporting Anika.

In fact, they're shown as way more concerned with Hakeem's welfare than they are Anika's.

Yes, Anika accompanies the Lyons when they confront the DuBois family; but nobody is holding her hand, nor would the Lyons have supported Anika had she gone off half cocked and attacked the DuBois physically as Rhonda did to her.

Quote

Worse off, Anika was part of the diabolical plan to snatch Bella out of the Lyon's house.

Something none of the Lyons knew. So it's not as if Anika is much more loyal to the Lyons than Rhonda was. 

Quote

Yet it was better for Rhonda to have fallen off that balcony?

Yep. She wanted to play the game and she lost. That's how it works.

Any sympathy Rhonda was lost when she murdered Vernon and subsequently treated him like trash.

JMHO.

6 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

I am confused as to why Dee is so in love with Anika.  

I am confused why you're making this personal.

Edited October 20, 2017 by Dee

[Biggie B]

Neither Anika nor Rhonda are/were the most sympathetic characters. They both did bad things, willingly. They're both pretty awful people who have, upon occasion, said or done something to momentarily inspire feelings of sympathy among us viewers, but for the most part, I feel like it's a draw.

What I do find a bit odd is that, as far as I can remember, there was no acknowledgment by the Lyon family of Rhonda's death, was there? We the viewers never saw a funeral or memorial service. I don't even recall a throw-away one liner by any of the family members about the aftermath of her death. We got to see Naomi Campbell's memorial service, and she wasn't a Lyon family member. So that always struck me as something weird. Even if something was done off-camera, we weren't told about it. So it's quite easy to understand why Andre is so bitter; his own parents and siblings didn't do anything to commemorate Rhonda's death (at least, not that we were shown). It's like she just vanished into thin air. I don't miss her character, though. 

[Dee]

The problem is the Lyons really haven't had much downtime. They've been busy running Empire and fending off potential adversaries right and left.

There hasn't been much in the way of vacations or free time, for any of them. The closest any of the Lyons come to mentioning anything close to a vacation, is when Lucious and Cookie choose Andre as Empire's next CEO, and we all know what happened after that.

The only reason Camilla received, a brief memorial service, is because she was Empire's acting CEO...at the time of her death.

Besides Lucious, who was largely preoccupied with keeping X-Stream running, the rest of the family was clearly upset about Rhonda and concerned about Andre.

While none of them were particularly close to Rhonda, they all pitched in, in various ways, to help comfort and care for Andre.

Even now, the Lyons didn't purposefully forget the anniversary of Rhonda's death, they've just had their hands full adjusting to Lucious rehab, dealing with running Empire, dodging the Dubois family and handling potential threats posed by Leah and Anika, that they've essentially been overwhelmed.

Edited October 20, 2017 by Dee

[Biggie B]

I, as a viewer, would have appreciated one line from one character that mentioned Rhonda's death. Even something like, "What a beautiful service that was," or a quick shot of Cookie or whomever bringing home flowers from the service. That's all the writers had to do - a passing reference - but instead, nothing was ever mentioned. Its absence makes it so conspicuous. Again, not that I cared much for Rhonda, but when a character dies or leaves and we the audience don't see the loop get closed (as we did with Leah, for example), it's not asking too much to have even one scripted line that dispenses with that person. It's almost like on some soap operas where a kid goes up to his room and is never seen again. Yes, we saw Rhonda's physical demise, but we never got so much as one word after that, until Andre had this outburst. Out of sight, out of mind. Perhaps the writers did that on purpose, allowing no mention of Rhonda to serve as a vehicle to create the anger and resentment inside Andre. 

[Dee]

The only reason Leah was given an exit was because her actions tied directly into Anika's situation.

Had that not been the case, the writers would've likely been fine with Leah continuing to exist offscreen, as she was prior to murdering Tariq.

However, nobody's acting like Rhonda never existed. She just died when a ton of other things going on for the Lyons as a whole, and at particularly rough time during her marriage to Andre. The rest of the family, except, arguably for Lucious, has done as much as they can, circumstances notwithstanding, to acknowledge his loss.

So Andre's bitterness about Rhonda's death shouldn't be directed at the rest of the family, it should be directed at himself. He has yet to deal with his own self loathing, the plethora of issues surrounding his marriage & his troubled relationship to his family.

Giving Rhonda an 'onscreen funeral' accomplishes none of that.

[Biggie B]

No worries, I just see it totally differently. I had no desire to see a funeral. I just wanted one line in the script that directly acknowledged, out loud and verbally, that her death was commemorated in some manner. And, I don't remember the episodes with much detail, so I can't recall any specific lines of dialogue in which people consoled Andre or talked about Rhonda, so to me, it seems that the character fell off the radar once she died. Which is understandable in a soap opera with many characters and story lines. She served a purpose and that purpose ended.

[Dee]

The episode Rhonda dies in has the Lyons discussing Andre's condition in the aftermath of Rhonda's death.

The very next episode has Andre being tenderly comforted both by Cookie and Jamal.

Given none of them were particularly close to Rhonda in life, it would be wrong of the writers to retcon that in death.

[Margohill]

15 minutes ago, Dee said:

Given none of them were particularly close to Rhonda in life, it would be wrong of the writers to retcon that in death.

Andre is Cookie and Lucious's son, he is the brother to Hakeem and Jamal. In real life and "a world of believability", they would have attended Rhonda's funeral. We didn't need to see a service but just the family shown together as having just attended Rhonda's funeral would have sufficed. However, the show decides what it wants to do. It would have just fortified the Lyons as a strong family that support each other in times of need. That was a missed opportunity IMO.

[Dee]

The Lyons are a strong family unit. They could've sold each other out plenty of times. Even now they could, yet they haven't.

They comforted Andre in his time of need. The fact that he ignores that when it's convenient says more about him than it does them.

And for Andre, of all people, to be on his high horse....after almost murdering both of his parents, not even six months ago, is the height of hypocrisy.

[tennisgurl]

Andre and Rhonda certainly did awful things, but I still felt bad for them when Anika shoved Rhonda down the stairs (after Rhonda was being nothing but nice to her) and they lost their baby, and when Rhonda died. It just seems horribly unfair for Anika to get the perfect mommy life after she purposefully shoved a pregnant woman down the stairs to kill her unborn child, purely out of jealousy and self involvement. Thats what gets me the most. Everyone on this show is varying degrees of sketchy, but thats just such a petty reason to do something so awful. I dont at all blame Andre for being pissed off that he still has to deal with Anika, and I roll my eyes every time she goes on about how much she "deserves" time with Bella. She does not deserve sole custody of Bella. She hardly deserves visitation rights. 

I enjoyed seeing more of Empires artists and seeing their different styles. Sometimes it seems like the only non Lyon artist that consistently have is Tiana, so its nice to be reminded that this is a large business (you know, an Empire?) with lots of people attached. I just imagine all these other people just stay FAR AWAY whenever drama is breaking out, and just focuses on their work. However, if Cookie keeps insulting their artists right to their faces, they might not have much of an empire left! Plus, it had some really good music. 

The Prince party looked fun, I hope baby Bella got to play in the bouncy house! Also, on a shallow note, Tiana and Tory both looked lovely at the party. 

Looks like Michael might be actually falling for Jamal, but it will be pretty hard to have a relationship after this all comes out. Its hard to spin "I know I started dating you in hopes of destroying you and your entire family on the orders of my Machiavellian grandma, but we can still make this work!" even if your a lawyer. 

[Dee]

Quote

It just seems horribly unfair for Anika to get the perfect mommy life

Anika hasn't had the perfect mommy life.

She was essentially held prisoner in Lucious mansion for many months, where they eventually began a gross sexual relationship (which was due to Lucious not being able to be with Cookie) until Lucious offered her a chance to return to Empire (which was only a ploy to hurt Cookie).

Before Anika can even settle back in at work, Tariq threatens her, to the point where she abandons Bella and takes off to visit her parents. When she returns, the Lyons are ready to kill her, until she convinces them she can eliminate their issues with the feds. After the fed issue is handled, Lucious attempts to divorce her with a sizable settlement only for child services to remove Bella.

At that point, Anika felt like she was sitting pretty, by playing both ends against the middle; only to be burned by a brilliant Leah, who she had been taunting for months.

Since then Anika has been cooling her heels in jail, with both families ignoring her until she became an unavoidable potential headache.

Anika & Andre actually have a similar problem, they want the biggest piece of the pie they can get without extending much care to the disaster they wreak trying to get it.

Quote

I dont at all blame Andre for being pissed off that he still has to deal with Anika,

Andre doesn't have to deal with Anika. They've been kept separate for the better part of a season & a half.

Also, when Andre had his clear opportunity to seek vengeance, he held his hand. 

Even Anika and Andre being in each others orbits in this episode was purely happenstance. So it's not as if Anika has been an issue for Andre.

[Margohill]

40 minutes ago, Dee said:

And for Andre, of all people, to be on his high horse....after almost murdering both of his parents, not even six months ago, is the height of hypocrisy.

Andre has never been seen to be on any high horse as far as I as "a viewer" has seen from this show. For God's sakes don't blame the poor guy for being well educated, smart, savvy, well spoken and clean cut. Lucious sent him to the best college to be all that.

Andre has bipolar which Lucious himself had told him to his face he was "ashamed of him" for having this disease. That in and of itself put's Andre in a position where mentally he could go off when distressed. At least he hasn't stabbed someone in the neck like his crazy grandma. Thank God for that.

We all know why he tried to kill Lucious, no need to go over all that again. I don't blame Andre one bit for trying to kill his father after all the horrible things he had done to him. It's unfortunate Cookie was caught in the blast because it wasn't meant for her.

Hypocrisy is another name any Lyon can own. They are all hypocrites and like you said, none of them are clean, but let's call a spade a spade. Andre deserves every right to be upset about his wife and child and Anika getting away with 2 murders. It's only human.

[Dee]

Quote

Andre has never been seen to be on any high horse as far as I as "a viewer" has seen from this show.

Andre has constantly been on his high horse. As Hakeem told him, he believes he's better than the rest of the family and entitled to everything he wants.

Quote

For God's sakes don't blame the poor guy for being well educated, smart, savvy, well spoken and clean cut. Lucious sent him to the best college to be all that.

Nobody blamed him for that. But he can't get upset if the Lyons have a specific vision for their legacy.

If Andre is so intent on doing things his way, he can start his own company.

Quote

Andre has bipolar which Lucious himself had told him to his face he was "ashamed of him" for having this disease.

Lucious also explained why he had problems dealing with Andre's disease, told him he and Cookie were proud of him, and handed him the keys to the company.

Quote

That in and of itself put's Andre in a position where mentally he could go off when distressed.

No. Andre himself is the reason why he can't handle stress.

He never dealt with his medication on a day to day level. Rhonda did. And when Rhonda was gone, he expected Nessa to fill that position.

If he, as an adult can't properly care for himself then he's got bigger problems than being CEO of a major company.

Quote

We all know why he tried to kill Lucious, no need to go over all that again.

Not getting your way is not an acceptable reason for murder.

Quote

I don't blame Andre one bit for trying to kill his father after all the horrible things he had done to him.

Andre is no saint. As he told Cookie, he's done horrible things in his life.

As horrible a person as Lucious is, and for all his issues surrounding Andre's disease, he never gave up on his son.

The same can't be said for Andre. And really, no one should be surprised because this isn't the first time Andre has been willing to put a member of his family in harm's way for his own gain.

Quote

It's unfortunate Cookie was caught in the blast because it wasn't meant for her.

So that makes it ok? That he has absolutely no guilt about potentially murdering one of the few people who has done nothing but fully support and encourage him?

Quote

Hypocrisy is another name any Lyon can own.

There are degrees of hypocrisy. All of the bio Lyons have done their share of dirt.

Yet only one of them has tried to murder most of the others. And it isn't Lucious, Cookie, Jamal or Hakeem.

 

 

Back to this week's episode: Anika is in for a world of hurt if she thinks the DuBois family is gonna treat her any different than the Lyons. At least with the Lyons, she would have an opportunity to see Bella. The DuBois family will ditch her as soon as she is of no use to them.

Edited October 20, 2017 by Dee