Margohill October 21, 2017 Share October 21, 2017 (edited) 7 hours ago, Dee said: Any sympathy Rhonda was lost when she murdered Vernon and subsequently treated him like trash. LOL!!! No, Dee no, that's what I'm talking about here. I watch the show and I came out with an entirely different point of view based on the writing. Rhonda did Lucious a huge favor by killing off snitch b@@tch uncle Vernon. By killing that snitch Rhonda did the Lyons 2 favors even though her killing Vernon was accidental. 1. She saved her husband Andre from being strangled to death. 2. She saved Lucious from going to jail because the Vernon the snitch was going to snitch to the Feds about Lucious. I remember that Lucious was EXTREMELY HAPPY and relieved when he found out that Rhonda and Andre had gotten rid of Vernon. That scene at that place where Andre and Rhonda were caught digging up Vernon's body was some scene indeed. I recall Lucious cursing at Vernon's body and saying some horrible things. In-fact he gave Andre a congratulatory slap on the back and their relationship improved greatly after that. He bought them a huge house and became extremely chummy with them again. So, if you ask me as a viewer, I'd say that in Lucious's eyes, killing off snitch Vernon was one of the best things they ever did. So CHEERS!!! Edited October 21, 2017 by Margohill 2 Link to comment
phoenics October 21, 2017 Share October 21, 2017 Maybe I'm supposed to feel badly about Rhonda but I don't. She was much more interesting dead and as a ghost than she was alive. The only reason I cared was because of Andre. I think it's sad that no one noticed that Bella's birthday was the same day Rhonda died. But again - I only care because of Andre. And I highly doubt that the ratings are affected because they "did Rhonda wrong", lol. Rhonda wasn't all that important in the grand scheme of things and I'm enjoying slutty Andre way too much. I like him and the cop, but that can't end well. Anika is bad, but I find her more interesting to watch than Rhonda. It's unfortunate that they declawed Anika - I used to love her feud with Cookie. Now she's just pitiful. I don't blame her for wanting custody - I think she's being a bit rich suing for sole custody - but it was pitiful how she was basically a guest at her own child's birthday party. No, she hasn't paid at all for what she did to Rhonda's unborn baby (I only count the stair pushing as attempted murder - the balcony was self defense)... but I'm not sure I want her to. I want her to get some claws back and some power so she can actually go toe to toe with Cookie - that brings out some of the best in Cookie. Boo Boo Kitty indeed. Somehow I can't see Claudia holding her own against Cookie. At least Anika had a few moments of glory there. I'm not sure how I feel about Light (Lucious+Dwight). He's interesting but I miss ruthless Lucious. And I hate seeing how he's being played by claudia - plus poor Cookie. I thought for a while that Claudia was working for the DuBois' but I'm not so sure - if she is then Diana is putting on a good front pretending she doesn't know about Lucious. I do wonder though what she's up to. Is she just after Lucious to be with him romantically and take the house, etc? Or is she after Empire? Is she going to suddenly show up in full makeup strutting like in Striptease when she has her "I won" moment? Link to comment
Dee October 21, 2017 Share October 21, 2017 1 minute ago, phoenics said: I'm not sure how I feel about Light (Lucious+Dwight). He's interesting but I miss ruthless Lucious. It's interesting that even with his memory largely gone, he still hasn't lost his creativity. It's just channeled through painting instead of music. With all Dwight's discussion of colors and auras, I'm wondering if they're hinting at Lucious gaining synesthesia. 2 Link to comment
journalism16 October 21, 2017 Share October 21, 2017 (edited) On October 19, 2017 at 8:29 PM, Margohill said: Let's be as realistic as we can. Not true. Lucious the grand master of the Lyons who was so happy about Rhonda's pregnancy and expecting a grandchild, KNEW that Anika had pushed Rhonda down the stairs and killed that grandbaby. Did he seek revenge? NO. What he did was, he took her in and was sleeping with her. Made no sense. If we have to actually acknowledge actual human feelings, Rhonda fought Anika because she wanted to avenge her child's death just as ANY OTHER MOTHER would do especially since not a single person believed her that Anika was the babykiller. Rhonda is canonized in death because THE WRITING made it so. Her baby's death was tragic, her death was tragic and none of the deaths have been avenged. People can't help themselves but feel sorry for Rhonda especially watching Anika strutting her stuff around and barking orders as if she was clean. Anika is the worst for being a baby-killer. How in the world can you reward someone who kills your grandbaby, just how?? And to bring her back into the family with Andre the victim watching all this?? How is anyone expected to feel when their family welcomes back into their home the person responsible for killing their baby and their wife? As someone mentioned above, Mrs. Dubois is running around trying to make the Lyons pay dearly just simply because Cookie dumped her son and the Lyons can't avenge the killing of their own grandchild? The way the Lyons ganged up together to face the Dubois when Bella was taken from their care, it would have made more sense if they had reacted even worse to the killing of their grandchild. Again it makes no sense. Hakeem was extremely irresponsible when he got Anika pregnant and Anika should have known better. No surprise that he didn't care to patch things up with her. He never loved her in the first place. She threatened to snitch but she had no proof. Thirsty can take care of any problem. He could have found a way to shut her down if he wanted to just as he found a way to get Lucious out of jail and shut down the case against Anika. Another flaw in the writing. IMO it seems more like a case of "BIASED WRITING" because there is no reason why the story couldn't have gone in a more realistic and believable way. After-all, the writers write what they want and we the viewers see what we see. All we can do is express what we take from the story. That's all. Again it's JMHO. I agree with what you are saying, but if you remember in Season 2, Hakeem had just escaped from that van after he was kidnapped, and yes, I agree that he was extremely irresponsible when he got her pregnant, but you also have to remember that he wasn't thinking clearly either, because he had just been kidnapped. And I definitely agree that Anika should have known better, and we also have to remember that Bella came along out of desperation for both of them. If you look at episode six in Season 2, Anika was talking to her mother about having no one and she said that she wouldn't be fine, and Hakeem was waiting for her, and if Anika really thought about it, if she felt like she had no one and nothing, than it would have made more sense if she went home to her parents, but she wasn't thinking about that. After telling the family and a very surprised Hakeem that she was pregnant, she told them that she wanted to make amends, and in Season 3, she wanted Cookie to take care of Bella in case she had to go into the Witness Protection Program, and then she goes to the Dubois family and has deliberately handed Bella over to them, and when they have lunch, she cries profusely after her daughter has been in the care of the Dubois family, and she wanted people to believe that she had no idea where her daughter was, when she knew all along? And Hakeem ended up following her, he knew she was being stupid and she cannot be trusted, when this plan has been manipulated by her all along. Edited October 21, 2017 by journalism16 2 Link to comment
Dee October 21, 2017 Share October 21, 2017 7 hours ago, tennisgurl said: The Prince party looked fun, I hope baby Bella got to play in the bouncy house! Also, on a shallow note, Tiana and Tory both looked lovely at the party. As much as Shyne loves party crashing, I'm really surprised he was nowhere to be found. Link to comment
wanderingstar October 21, 2017 Share October 21, 2017 (edited) I know love is Jamal's drug because it clearly makes him do stupid shit like spill family secrets to a guy he's known for a few months. Smh. I did like his duet with Warren. Enjoyed the Prince-themed party, but I found Jussie's wig distracting. Bella looked adorable but completely over it. Angelo approaching Anika is very soapy. Wouldn't be surprised if they end up in bed together. Anika can miss me with her outrage, though. She was fine with the Lyons' treachery when it benefited her, so she and her indignation can have several seats. Tiana looked amazing in this ep. She should have won that Alpha contest. Nurse Claudia is one treacherous piece of work. Can't wait to see her taken down. Edited October 21, 2017 by Gillian Rosh 3 Link to comment
crowceilidh October 21, 2017 Share October 21, 2017 I loved all the Princes at that party. The expense and trouble was very Dynasty. I thought it was a terribly lacklustre rendition of "Let's Go Crazy" and Jussie looked terrrrrrible in that wig. I was sitting watching the song and generally thinking, "Couldn't they do a better version of this?" and super enjoying looking at all the costumes and hair and then they did the shot of the cake and when it hit Prince's symbol name I actually burst out howling in surprised tears over Prince's death for some 3 minutes. That was a bit of a shock. And weird, because I wasn't ever that big a fan of his - he's great and all, and I've spent lots of time dancing frenetically to his music, but I wouldn't call myself a fan. The whole incident amazed me. 3 Link to comment
Dee October 22, 2017 Share October 22, 2017 13 hours ago, Gillian Rosh said: Angelo approaching Anika is very soapy. Wouldn't be surprised if they end up in bed together. If she thinks the DuBois will treat her any better than the Lyons, she's in for a rude awakening; especially since she's still intimately tied to the Lyons via Bella. 2 Link to comment
thuganomics85 October 22, 2017 Share October 22, 2017 Empire's American Idol.... err, 20 for 20 stuff was entertaining and I did like seeing a glimpse of the other singers that we haven't seen before and I wonder if any of them will ever come back. Totally knew Jamal was going to win (especially with him bringing Warren to sing), and while the duet was fine I guess, I personally would have picked Tiana (and not just because she looked extra gorgeous in this episode.) Glad that they acknowledged that Rhonda died the same day Bella was born. Hell, I almost forgot about it, myself! Not surprised that Andre and Anika seeing each other got pretty ugly, which was made extra weird knowing that Trai and Grace are married in real life. Ah, acting! Angelo finally makes a move by convincing Anika to turn on the Lyons and demand full custody. While I'm all for the drama, I feel like Anika is reaching here. I can see an argument for more rights, but she needs to have massive dirt to win flat-out full custody here, since I can't remember Hakeem; for all of his faults; ever doing anything too bad as a father. And, assuming the Lyons are smart and get Thirsty to represent them, then, well, Angelo? You are no Thirsty! Claudia is so manipulating Lucious for herself. Creepy! The DuBois family continues to be so awful, but I love them for it! 5 Link to comment
jhlipton October 22, 2017 Share October 22, 2017 On 10/18/2017 at 6:15 PM, mtlchick said: "Your brother got shot up? MEH. You're here to work so forget that noise." The brother "shot up" (ie, took heroin). It doesn't matter too much in terms of plot, but there is a distinction. On 10/21/2017 at 3:43 AM, Gillian Rosh said: Bella looked adorable but completely over it. Tiana looked amazing in this ep. She should have won that Alpha contest. I saw an article somewhere that said "instead of throwing a party for young children that they won't remember, write a note for them to read on their 10th birthday". But this party was for the adults -- Bella was just the excuse. Meh. "You're just a sex-toy for your man" doesn't excite me much. Link to comment
Syndicate October 22, 2017 Share October 22, 2017 If you look closely at Claudia, you might think she gives off "Sheila Carter" vibes, all the way down to the nurse aspect. Anyone familiar with daytime soaps Y&R/B&B will know who I'm talking about. I wonder if this is just such a scenario with Claudia and Lucious? 4 Link to comment
journalism16 October 23, 2017 Share October 23, 2017 On October 20, 2017 at 2:10 PM, tennisgurl said: Andre and Rhonda certainly did awful things, but I still felt bad for them when Anika shoved Rhonda down the stairs (after Rhonda was being nothing but nice to her) and they lost their baby, and when Rhonda died. It just seems horribly unfair for Anika to get the perfect mommy life after she purposefully shoved a pregnant woman down the stairs to kill her unborn child, purely out of jealousy and self involvement. Thats what gets me the most. Everyone on this show is varying degrees of sketchy, but thats just such a petty reason to do something so awful. I dont at all blame Andre for being pissed off that he still has to deal with Anika, and I roll my eyes every time she goes on about how much she "deserves" time with Bella. She does not deserve sole custody of Bella. She hardly deserves visitation rights. I enjoyed seeing more of Empires artists and seeing their different styles. Sometimes it seems like the only non Lyon artist that consistently have is Tiana, so its nice to be reminded that this is a large business (you know, an Empire?) with lots of people attached. I just imagine all these other people just stay FAR AWAY whenever drama is breaking out, and just focuses on their work. However, if Cookie keeps insulting their artists right to their faces, they might not have much of an empire left! Plus, it had some really good music. The Prince party looked fun, I hope baby Bella got to play in the bouncy house! Also, on a shallow note, Tiana and Tory both looked lovely at the party. Looks like Michael might be actually falling for Jamal, but it will be pretty hard to have a relationship after this all comes out. Its hard to spin "I know I started dating you in hopes of destroying you and your entire family on the orders of my Machiavellian grandma, but we can still make this work!" even if your a lawyer. Just for future reference, the character's name is Warren. Link to comment
Margohill October 23, 2017 Share October 23, 2017 On 10/21/2017 at 5:43 AM, Gillian Rosh said: Angelo approaching Anika is very soapy. Wouldn't be surprised if they end up in bed together. Wouldn't be surprised there. Anika always goes for Cookie's "sloppy seconds". If none are available, she goes for her son. As for Angelo, he is a drunk mess right now he could sleep with anything. They both deserve each other but one thing is certain, they are going up against the "indomitable Lyons" and will lose that battle big time. On 10/20/2017 at 11:28 PM, journalism16 said: If you look at episode six in Season 2, Anika was talking to her mother about having no one and she said that she wouldn't be fine, and Hakeem was waiting for her, and if Anika really thought about it, if she felt like she had no one and nothing, than it would have made more sense if she went home to her parents, but she wasn't thinking about that. After telling the family and a very surprised Hakeem that she was pregnant, she told them that she wanted to make amends, and in Season 3, she wanted Cookie to take care of Bella in case she had to go into the Witness Protection Program, and then she goes to the Dubois family and has deliberately handed Bella over to them, and when they have lunch, she cries profusely after her daughter has been in the care of the Dubois family, and she wanted people to believe that she had no idea where her daughter was, when she knew all along? And Hakeem ended up following her, he knew she was being stupid and she cannot be trusted, when this plan has been manipulated by her all along Totally agree. After talking to her mother, I remember Anika made a bee-line straight to Hakeem's apartment and seduced him. She was so desperate even when time and time Hakeem told him he didn't love her and was in love with someone else who at that time was Laura (I think that was that singer's name in S2). Hakeem has NEVER shown any love for Anika whatsoever. On 10/21/2017 at 5:43 AM, Gillian Rosh said: I know love is Jamal's drug because it clearly makes him do stupid shit like spill family secrets to a guy he's known for a few months. Smh. I did like his duet with Warren I felt nothing for Jamal's duet with Warren. The fact that he was sticking a knife into Jamal's back just turned me off especially when he spilled the beans about Lucious to Mrs. Dubois. I was hoping that his love for Jamal would keep him quiet but was very disappointed when he spilled that secret. Too late now that he has already told Mrs. Dubois. I hope Jamal comes to his senses and throws him out the door, LITERALLY. I'm so sick of these fake boyfriends Jamal hooks up with. About time he teaches one of them a real lesson of not messing with a Lyon. SMH. 2 Link to comment
Dee October 23, 2017 Share October 23, 2017 Anika doesn't 'always' go for Cookie's sloppy seconds. Lucious is the only man they have in common. As far as Hakeem and Anika, Hakeem has never been in love with Anika; but out of all the Lyons, Hakeem always had the most love for Anika. However, their current situation is a direct result of them using each other for their own ends. The irony of Warren betraying Jamal, is that he's hurting the Lyon Brother least likely to forgive. Warren is in for a world of pain once Jamal realizes how badly he's been played. 1 Link to comment
jhlipton October 23, 2017 Share October 23, 2017 14 hours ago, Margohill said: Hakeem has NEVER shown any love for Anika whatsoever. I hope Jamal comes to his senses and throws him out the door, LITERALLY. I'm not sure Hakeem has shown love for anyone other than himself (he sure loves himself far more than he deserves). Even now, he seems to treat Tiana as Bella's step-mom rather than his girl-friend. Defenestration would be better! 1 Link to comment
Dee October 23, 2017 Share October 23, 2017 Hakeem definitely loves Tiana imo. He's hoped Tiana would grow closer to Bella, because they're both extremely important to him, but he hasn't tried to force Tiana into being Bella's stepmother. He's hired a nanny to assist with Bella's care, and he's been more expressive of his own feelings and fairly considerate of Tiana's needs. 2 Link to comment
Margohill October 24, 2017 Share October 24, 2017 7 hours ago, jhlipton said: I'm not sure Hakeem has shown love for anyone other than himself (he sure loves himself far more than he deserves). Totally agree. Cookie had to beat him down with a broom stick for him to even look at her with respect as his mother. Her being gone for 17 years was no excuse for Hakeem to have been so disrespectful and rude to her. Lucious did such a poor job raising Hakeem. 7 hours ago, jhlipton said: Defenestration would be better! Agreed again. LOL!!!!!! 4 Link to comment
Dee October 24, 2017 Share October 24, 2017 Cookie has had to raise a hand to all of her sons. She's been the most firm with Hakeem, because, as she herself admits, he's the one who needs it the most. However she's ceased utilizing intense corporal punishment with him, lately, because she's accepted he has to mature at his own speed. 1 Link to comment
Destiny74 October 24, 2017 Share October 24, 2017 First birthday parties are for the adults, not the birthday child. A one year old is thrilled being the center of attention but the mechanisms for a "party" are all for the parents and other adults. Hell, most in year old would be happy spending the whole day playing peek a boo with Mommy and Daddy. Not that there is anything wrong with a party for a first birthday, it just isn't for the baby. Hate the Warren storyline. I'd feel bad for Jamal if he would just wise up and be a little more discerning about who he gets involved with. He has crappy taste in men. They all use him or usher him into poor life choices. He needs someone to seriously vet his next relationship. Anika can go to hell. Andre is a punching bag. I feel bad for him. But his thang with the cop is a huge mistake. Gigantic. 2 Link to comment
darkestboy October 24, 2017 Share October 24, 2017 Good episode but the Prince theme made no sense for a one year old's birthday. Anika deserves nothing good and I hope she loses sole custody of Bella. Really didn't blame Andre for wanting to snap at her this week. Bit insensitive none of his family stepped up regarding Rhonda as well. Warren is starting to fall Jamal now that Diana's making bigger blows to the Lyons, which is predictable but interesting enough though. Cookie needs to dial it down. She was needlessly rude towards some of the artists this week. I did love the prison flashbacks though and the Lucious/Claudia scenes were decent too, 8/10 1 Link to comment
MyAimIsTrue October 24, 2017 Share October 24, 2017 On 10/21/2017 at 10:56 AM, crowceilidh said: I thought it was a terribly lacklustre rendition of "Let's Go Crazy" and Jussie looked terrrrrrible in that wig. I didn't like the rendition either and didn't realize it was Jussie at first as I was asking myself who was the hack butchering a Prince classic. I love the guy but he doesn't have the right voice for that song. 1 Link to comment
Dee October 24, 2017 Share October 24, 2017 If the rest of the Lyons are wrong for not kissing Andre's ass, then he certainly can be held accountable for betraying them constantly. Also, Cookie is acting like any competent CEO. Choosing the lead artist of a hundred million dollar project isn't time for sweetness. If she were a man, no one would be expecting her to be nice. 2 Link to comment
journalism16 October 24, 2017 Share October 24, 2017 On October 22, 2017 at 9:02 PM, Margohill said: Wouldn't be surprised there. Anika always goes for Cookie's "sloppy seconds". If none are available, she goes for her son. As for Angelo, he is a drunk mess right now he could sleep with anything. They both deserve each other but one thing is certain, they are going up against the "indomitable Lyons" and will lose that battle big time. Totally agree. After talking to her mother, I remember Anika made a bee-line straight to Hakeem's apartment and seduced him. She was so desperate even when time and time Hakeem told him he didn't love her and was in love with someone else who at that time was Laura (I think that was that singer's name in S2). Hakeem has NEVER shown any love for Anika whatsoever. I felt nothing for Jamal's duet with Warren. The fact that he was sticking a knife into Jamal's back just turned me off especially when he spilled the beans about Lucious to Mrs. Dubois. I was hoping that his love for Jamal would keep him quiet but was very disappointed when he spilled that secret. Too late now that he has already told Mrs. Dubois. I hope Jamal comes to his senses and throws him out the door, LITERALLY. I'm so sick of these fake boyfriends Jamal hooks up with. About time he teaches one of them a real lesson of not messing with a Lyon. SMH. Yes, Hakeem was in love with Laura, he told Camilla this, and she wanted him to get rid of her, and he broke up with her briefly, to get Empire back, so he made that tape and sent it to Mimi, and she ultimately drinks something that she gave Mimi after Lucious finds out she killed her wife. When Hakeem tells Anika that he is in love with Laura, she doesn't seem phased by it, but was definitely jealous and hurt; however, when Anika learned that she was pregnant, she tried to contact him several times. I agree that Hakeem had the most love for Anika, because she was around him before their mother came home, but as far as a relationship was concerned between Hakeem and Anika, he never loved her; but he was genuinely in love with Laura, and I thought their relationship was very sweet. Link to comment
Margohill October 25, 2017 Share October 25, 2017 8 hours ago, journalism16 said: Yes, Hakeem was in love with Laura, he told Camilla this, and she wanted him to get rid of her, and he broke up with her briefly, to get Empire back, so he made that tape and sent it to Mimi, and she ultimately drinks something that she gave Mimi after Lucious finds out she killed her wife. Good God yes!! I almost forgot that Hakeem was dating Camilla in S1. Boy! how could I forget that? The boy had his mommy issues..LOL!!! That's one of the main reasons Hakeem couldn't get along with his mother because Camilla was in the way. 8 hours ago, journalism16 said: I agree that Hakeem had the most love for Anika, I just never saw that. I saw their relationship as platonic and if you ask me, I think Hakeem loved Camilla much more than Anika. With Anika it looked very superficial to me. She really seems to have pushed herself on Hakeem which still revolts me since she had been with Hakeem's father for a long time. From father to son? That's desperation at it's highest level. 9 hours ago, Dee said: If the rest of the Lyons are wrong for not kissing Andre's ass, then he certainly can be held accountable for betraying them constantly. We are watching the same show but getting different perspectives..hmmmmm. Andre finished school and has worked at his father's company helping raise money for Jamal and Hakeem to pursue their careers. No one was supposed to kiss anyone's behind but just show some support. Hakeem and Jamal have had plenty of support from both their parents while Andre seems to have been more or less left out in the cold. If they are family and supposed to be really close knit, then it's not too much for Andre to ask to get their support. If they could just reach out and give him the support that he deserves, maybe he will think twice about doing anything silly. For now, I can't really say I blame him for his actions. JMHO Link to comment
Dee October 25, 2017 Share October 25, 2017 Quote I just never saw that. No one is saying Hakeem was in love with Anika, but that he was the closest to Anika, in the family, other than Lucious. Both Hakeem & Anika knew they weren't in love with each other. Anika briefly tried to convince herself otherwise, but she quickly dropped that delusion, after Hakeem made it abundantly clear he was in love with Laura. Quote Andre finished school and has worked at his father's company helping raise money for Jamal and Hakeem to pursue their careers. Andre was paid & promoted for his work just like any other Empire employee. He wasn't toiling away while Jamal and Hakeem solely reaped the spoils. As a matter of fact, he was arguably, shown more love than either Jamal or Hakeem; both of whom were, prior to Cookie's release, content to live lives of relative leisure. He was the trusted CFO for one of the world's most famous music labels, and he and Rhonda lived lavishly. Quote Hakeem and Jamal have had plenty of support from both their parents while Andre seems to have been more or less left out in the cold. Andre has never been 'left out in the cold.' Lucious had massive problems accepting, and dealing with, Andre's mental health issues; but he always acknowledged Andre's hard work and rewarded him accordingly. It was Andre, who was so spoiled & ungrateful, that he attempted to stab his father in the back, because he was under the mistaken belief he was entitled to more, only to have his world rocked when his father, rightfully, confronted him about both his betrayal and intentions. And Cookie has done nothing but thoroughly love and support Andre, from the moment she was released, only for Andre to sneer and condescend to her while repeatedly throwing her under the bus. Quote If they are family and supposed to be really close knit, then it's not too much for Andre to ask to get their support. Andre doesn't support anyone but Andre. He's second, only to Lucious, when it comes to betraying the rest of the family; and they haven't ever done anything, but love and support him. Quote If they could just reach out and give him the support that he deserves, Please name one time, other than inadvertently forgetting the anniversary of Rhonda's death, that any Lyon, other than Lucious, hasn't supported Andre. Quote For now, I can't really say I blame him for his actions. I can. Andre is dirtier than just about everyone else on the show. His crying about losing at a game, he (and Rhonda) insisted on playing, after the fact, doesn't make him sympathetic, it just makes him a spoilsport. JMHO. Link to comment
phoenics October 25, 2017 Share October 25, 2017 On 10/22/2017 at 2:35 PM, Syndicate said: If you look closely at Claudia, you might think she gives off "Sheila Carter" vibes, all the way down to the nurse aspect. Anyone familiar with daytime soaps Y&R/B&B will know who I'm talking about. I wonder if this is just such a scenario with Claudia and Lucious? Hmmm. I remember Sheila (loved her when she got to B&B) and yes - that's exactly the vibe she's giving off! On 10/22/2017 at 11:02 PM, Margohill said: Totally agree. After talking to her mother, I remember Anika made a bee-line straight to Hakeem's apartment and seduced him. She was so desperate even when time and time Hakeem told him he didn't love her and was in love with someone else who at that time was Laura (I think that was that singer's name in S2). Hakeem has NEVER shown any love for Anika whatsoever. After Anika talked to her mother, she arrived at her home and Hakeem was waiting for her. I remember because she was on the phone and walking on her street. Her mom was no help really so Anika was a crying mess when she got to her door. She had just finished telling her mother that she had no one. She hung up, got to the door and Hakeem appeared behind her. He went to kiss her, she dropped her keys and mouthed "thank you" as if Hakeem was an answered prayer. Hakeem came to Anika because he was feeling vulnerable and alone after his kidnapping and no one else was really listening to him. So he went to Anika. I don't think Hakeem ever loved Anika - but I don't think she loved him either. I think that in that moment, they were simply what each other needed at that moment and neither of them seemed to have bad intent - just needs. Anika needed to not feel alone and Hakeem needed to feel alive I guess. I'm not sure what scene you're remembering of Anika showing up at Hakeem's door but that's not the scene where Anika got pregnant with Bella - the scene I just mentioned is. It's hard for me to believe that Jamal got supported and loved by the family more than Andre. The family for the most part loved all the sons - it's Lucious who trashed Andre - and he literally threw Jamal in a trash can. Andre's beef is with Lucious - but he nearly killed his own mother due to that beef. Lucious gets away with all of his dirt, so I'm okay with Andre and Anika getting away with theirs - but Andre doesn't have much space to be judging everyone else and feeling like HIS murder attempts are okay, while Anika and Lucious should pay for their sins, while he pays for nothing. I wish they hadn't had the family forget about Rhonda - it especially seems out of character for Jamal, given how Andre was living with him after she died and Jamal was doing all he could to help him. In S1, one of my fave things about this show was how close knit the brothers were - now we've got Andre acting like he's been abused his whole life by his whole family when that's a lie. It's pretty much been Lucious - but he's been whack to everyone - except Hakeem (until last season and that was for like half a minute and Hakeem literally is still acting out against his dad for that lapse when he's had it SO much better than Jamal or Andre). If Hakeem had to put up with what Cookie, Andre and Jamal had to take from Lucious for as long as they did, he would have cracked up completely. He got a few months of mistreatment after 20+ years of coddling by Lucious and turned so fiercely against his dad and family it wasn't even funny (that vote for Camille). 1 Link to comment
Dee October 25, 2017 Share October 25, 2017 Anika doesn't try seducing Hakeem, until after she's already pregnant. First, she visits him, after their hookup, where he abruptly dismisses her. Next, after realizing she's pregnant & Hakeem confession of love, she does reconnaissance on Laura. Then, after unwitting advice from Rhonda, she attempts to undermine Laura, which in turn has Hakeem demanding she leave. Finally, after still not having told him she's pregnant, she attempts to force the issue while mending fences with Hakeem, only for Hakeem to coldly rebuke her. On 10/24/2017 at 11:37 PM, phoenics said: it especially seems out of character for Jamal, given how Andre was living with him after she died and Jamal was doing all he could to help him. To be fair, Andre moved out of Jamal's, because Andre's usual scheming got Jamal's place shot up. It was only sheer luck Jamal wasn't caught in the crossfire, which is proof of just how little Andre appreciates his brothers help. 1 Link to comment
phoenics October 25, 2017 Share October 25, 2017 (edited) 7 hours ago, Dee said: To be fair, Andre moved out of Jamal's, because Andre's usual scheming got Jamal's place shot up. It was only sheer luck Jamal wasn't caught in the crossfire, which is proof of just how little Andre appreciates his brothers help. Good point. I forgot about why he moved out. You know what's bothering me right now about Andre? Cookie was going to be in that car with Lucious - if they hadn't decided to pass the company to Andre - would he have let the bomb go off? It's bothering me that I'm honestly not sure Andre would have stopped it to save his mother. Edited October 25, 2017 by phoenics Link to comment
jhlipton October 25, 2017 Share October 25, 2017 22 hours ago, Dee said: Cookie is acting like any competent CEO. Choosing the lead artist of a hundred million dollar project isn't time for sweetness. If she were a man, no one would be expecting her to be nice. There's not being nice, there's being mean. She wasn't helping any of the artists be better; she was just belittling them. When Lucious pulls crap like that, we berate him, too. 21 hours ago, journalism16 said: Hakeem was in love with Laura See, I don't think he was (same show, different perspectives, like @Margohill said). She wasn't going to be one of his conquests, so he saw her as a challenge. Once he got into her pants (and shame on her for letting him -- I was pissed that a woman couldn't stand up to him), he lost interest. Link to comment
Dee October 25, 2017 Share October 25, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, jhlipton said: She wasn't helping any of the artists be better; she was just belittling them. Helping artists be better wasn't the point of the auditions. That's what A&R executives are for. The auditions were for finding a new lead artist for a multi-million dollar project. A project which possesses limited resources and necessitates meeting a specific time table. And Cookie didn't belittle anyone, really. She was brusque with them, sure, but she wasn't mean. Quote Once he got into her pants (and shame on her for letting him -- I was pissed that a woman couldn't stand up to him), he lost interest. Except Hakeem did everything in his power to make Laura happy...including proposing to her, after, they slept together. Edited October 25, 2017 by Dee Link to comment
journalism16 October 25, 2017 Share October 25, 2017 On 10/24/2017 at 8:34 PM, Margohill said: Good God yes!! I almost forgot that Hakeem was dating Camilla in S1. Boy! how could I forget that? The boy had his mommy issues..LOL!!! That's one of the main reasons Hakeem couldn't get along with his mother because Camilla was in the way. I just never saw that. I saw their relationship as platonic and if you ask me, I think Hakeem loved Camilla much more than Anika. With Anika it looked very superficial to me. She really seems to have pushed herself on Hakeem which still revolts me since she had been with Hakeem's father for a long time. From father to son? That's desperation at it's highest level. We are watching the same show but getting different perspectives..hmmmmm. Andre finished school and has worked at his father's company helping raise money for Jamal and Hakeem to pursue their careers. No one was supposed to kiss anyone's behind but just show some support. Hakeem and Jamal have had plenty of support from both their parents while Andre seems to have been more or less left out in the cold. If they are family and supposed to be really close knit, then it's not too much for Andre to ask to get their support. If they could just reach out and give him the support that he deserves, maybe he will think twice about doing anything silly. For now, I can't really say I blame him for his actions. JMHO I agree that Hakeem and Anika had more of a platonic than a romantic relationship, when we watch the show, but maybe offscreen it may have been implied that they had a more established relationship, but I digress. Hakeem was in love with Camilla much more than Anika, and the relationship building with Cookie suffered. But when Hakeem was ready to stop the motherly relationship he had with Camilla she was not happy about that because he wanted to start to build a relationship with Cookie, and Anika nor Camilla could do anything about that because they had no say. Andre, Jamal, and Hakeem are Cookie and Lucious's sons, so they could not control the relationship that would ultimately happen between Cookie and Hakeem. And let's not forget that Anika was threatened by Cookie the moment she came home because she knew that Cookie and Lucious had history and children, she knew she couldn't hold onto him, because of the connection they would always have, while Anika did not have that connection with him. I agree that Anika did push herself onto Hakeem and they had more of a platonic relationship in Season 1, and with Cookie coming back to reclaim part of the company, and rebuilding a relationship with her two oldest children, while also trying to help Hakeem grow up, and build a relationship with him, Anika had much more to lose in Season 1, than Cookie ever did because she didn't have Lucious's children, and Cookie did. On 10/24/2017 at 11:26 PM, phoenics said: After Anika talked to her mother, she arrived at her home and Hakeem was waiting for her. I remember because she was on the phone and walking on her street. Her mom was no help really so Anika was a crying mess when she got to her door. She had just finished telling her mother that she had no one. She hung up, got to the door and Hakeem appeared behind her. He went to kiss her, she dropped her keys and mouthed "thank you" as if Hakeem was an answered prayer. Hakeem came to Anika because he was feeling vulnerable and alone after his kidnapping and no one else was really listening to him. So he went to Anika. I don't think Hakeem ever loved Anika - but I don't think she loved him either. I think that in that moment, they were simply what each other needed at that moment and neither of them seemed to have bad intent - just needs. Anika needed to not feel alone and Hakeem needed to feel alive I guess. I'm not sure what scene you're remembering of Anika showing up at Hakeem's door but that's not the scene where Anika got pregnant with Bella - the scene I just mentioned is. I agree with you, I think he needed to feel like a man again as well, as I remember that scene in my head too, but she does end up going to Hakeem's condo to tell him that she is pregnant, and he tells her that he is in love, and she doesn't tell him after that. But it must have happened in the scene where she is going home after walking and he's waiting for her, but a few days after that, Rhonda was staying with Anika and Andre comes over so he can talk to her, and Anika ends up throwing up after eating, and Rhonda asks her if she's pregnant, and Andre asks her who the father is, and she reveals that it's Hakeem, which then prompts both of them to help her tell the family in Season 2 Episode 14: "Time Shall Unfold." And that's where the family finds out, and Hakeem is surprised, but asks, How you know the baby's even mine? And she says, "You're the only one I've been with, after your father." And the family is not thrilled about this. But you are right, it wasn't bad intentions. But you also have to remember, he didn't end up at home until the end of the episode in Season 2 Episode 6, he goes to Anika first, because when Cookie opens the van door, she finds that Hakeem is not there, and they ask the driver with urgency, "Where's our son?!" 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Dee October 25, 2017 Share October 25, 2017 8 minutes ago, journalism16 said: but a few days after that, Rhonda was staying with Anika There's a several month gap between Anika getting pregnant and Rhonda staying with her. Link to comment
journalism16 October 25, 2017 Share October 25, 2017 4 hours ago, Dee said: There's a several month gap between Anika getting pregnant and Rhonda staying with her. I know, but to me it felt like it was a few days, and sometimes in television a few weeks can still be considered the same day. Link to comment
Margohill October 26, 2017 Share October 26, 2017 (edited) On 10/24/2017 at 9:21 PM, Dee said: Andre was paid & promoted for his work just like any other Empire employee. He wasn't toiling away while Jamal and Hakeem solely reaped the spoils. As a matter of fact, he was arguably, shown more love than either Jamal or Hakeem; both of whom were, prior to Cookie's release, content to live lives of relative leisure. He was the trusted CFO for one of the world's most famous music labels, and he and Rhonda lived lavishly. He was paid alright but Lucious made sure he wasn't involved in any important decision making and to focus on raising money to support Jamal and Hakeem's concerts. There were a few scenes where Lucious gave him a serious talk down about concentrating on getting the funds no matter how difficult it was. that was very stressful for Andre. He was toiling away IMO trying to come up with all kinds of ways to raise the money for their concerts. BTW, all the boys lived lavishly so it's not as if Andre was treated extra-special in that aspect. I think Hakeem was the most spoiled and lived extra luxuriously. On 10/24/2017 at 9:21 PM, Dee said: Lucious had massive problems accepting, and dealing with, Andre's mental health issues; but he always acknowledged Andre's hard work and rewarded him accordingly. Let's be honest here. Luscious has NEVER dealt with Andre's mental issues. He has shunned him because of it and never even visited him at the mental health center when he had his breakdown. That was sad. Lucious was so ashamed of the disease Andre inherited from his mother that he took Andre to a FAKE grave and lied that his mother was dead when she was actually at an institution which Andre later found out. That was sad. On 10/24/2017 at 9:21 PM, Dee said: It was Andre, who was so spoiled & ungrateful, that he attempted to stab his father in the back, because he was under the mistaken belief he was entitled to more, only to have his world rocked when his father, rightfully, confronted him about both his betrayal and intentions. To understand why Andre felt the way he did, his father needed to have talked to him and get what was ailing him. Lucious never understood the self pity Andre must have felt to be put down time and time again by his father because of his illness which must have made him behave in certain hurtful ways. Andre became angry and vengeful because of his father. Lucious has himself to blame for what Andre became. On 10/24/2017 at 9:21 PM, Dee said: And Cookie has done nothing but thoroughly love and support Andre, from the moment she was released, only for Andre to sneer and condescend to her while repeatedly throwing her under the bus. Never saw Andre being condescending to his mother at any time WHATSOEVER. In fact when Cookie just got out of jail and Lucious was refusing to make her CEO or give her any part of the company, Andre was the one who sat his mother down and gave her the brilliant idea which gave her the leverage she had over Lucious to get the financial support she ended up getting from Lucious. Yes Cookie has shown love to Andre but IMO, it's miles short of what she has shown Jamal and Hakeem. On 10/24/2017 at 9:21 PM, Dee said: Andre doesn't support anyone but Andre. What do expect anyone to do without much support from your loved ones? Your baby gets killed, no one reacts, your wife dies, not much of even a funeral. Heck I would learn to care for myself under those circumstances too. I totally get Andre. On 10/24/2017 at 9:21 PM, Dee said: Please name one time, other than inadvertently forgetting the anniversary of Rhonda's death, that any Lyon, other than Lucious, hasn't supported Andre. There are a few, but I choose not to get into it. It's obvious from watching the show. That's how I came to my conclusion, by watching the show..LOL!!!! On 10/24/2017 at 9:21 PM, Dee said: His crying about losing at a game, he (and Rhonda) insisted on playing, after the fact, doesn't make him sympathetic, it just makes him a spoilsport. I think we see things differently. Losing your wife and child can never be equivocated to "losing at a game". Heck it is much more than that. Andre is entitled to feeling betrayed and hurt with the kind of loses he has suffered and deserves every right to be angry and vengeful. Nothing spoilsport about that, not at all. Edited October 26, 2017 by Margohill 2 Link to comment
phoenics October 26, 2017 Share October 26, 2017 (edited) I was actually really interested in other times when people other than Lucious did Andre wrong in the family and I couldn't think of any other than them forgetting what just happened. And I too watch the show. I'm pretty sure Dee does too? If those moments exist - please do tell. Otherwise, why make the claim. It's a discussion board to discuss what happened on the show that we ALL watch. Also - when Andre first visited Cookie - even though he did give her "advice" that advice was also for his own benefit. He wasn't just being nice - he was also manipulating. Additionally, the way that Andre initially spoke to Cookie was rather condescending and some of his looks at her were condescending as well. He tried to play her as a simpleton and she had to set him straight more than once. Cookie even mentioned her hesitation with Andre because of his condescension and how he made her feel less than - so she was unsure how to bridge the gap between them. See. I watch the show too, lol. I agree that Andre is entitled to feel hurt and angry - but his actions nearly resulted in his mother being killed. If Lucious hadn't been there to shove her out of the way, she would have died or been seriously hurt instead of Lucious. Also - if Andre hadn't been given the company by his parents - he would have let that bomb go off without a peep. And Cookie or Lucious would have been killed. Probably both, since they would have had no warning. That's not okay and that kind of vengeance is out of place for what "wrongs" have been done to Andre - even at the hands of Lucious. The only way Andre is justified is in a world where entitlement is a virtue. That's not this world. That's not to say that he doesn't have a right to be angry - but he's plotted murder - and Lucious lost a leg and his memory due to it. Andre's own actions have cost him Empire - if he hadn't set that bomb, Lucious and Cookie would be off seeing the world and Andre would be CEO. Instead, Lucious is Light and Cookie is holding things together with duck tape and glue. Cookie can't really hand off the company because she needs a strong Lucious to do that so they can hand it off to Andre properly. But he's about to mess around and end up exposed as the one who plotted to kill his own dad. If Andre really wants Anika to pay - then he could very easily set it up so that she goes down for Rhonda's murder - or at least the loss of his child. Go after Anika and make her pay. I guess the issue is he can't - because that would out Lucious? But that FBI dude is dead now - so no reason why he can't come after Anika. If he offed her - or had her offed, I doubt the family would shed a tear... No one on this show has a monopoly on being bad - the characters are all gray. Some are grayer than others (Lucious), but they are all pretty much gray. Anika is pretty bad but then again Andre is too. Before the kill plot I would've said Anika was probably further along the line in terms of being dark, but Andre caught up super fast, lol. I still feel like both Andre and Anika plotting murder (and Anika killing Rhonda's baby and nearly killing Rhonda - the balcony scene was self defense, so I only count the house stairs thing) was too far for the characters but that's the kind of crazy this show is, lol. I just enjoy it rather than trying to split hairs on who is worst. Especially when that title belongs to Lucious. His sons just all have pieces of what makes him the worst - but not all pieces together. Edited October 26, 2017 by phoenics Link to comment
Margohill October 26, 2017 Share October 26, 2017 (edited) 22 hours ago, phoenics said: It's hard for me to believe that Jamal got supported and loved by the family more than Andre. When Cookie was in jail, he wasn't loved at all by his father but when Cookie was released she devoted all her time and effort to rebuild Jamal emotionally, and professionally and which was a great thing for a mother to do. That was the best part of Empire writing I have enjoyed to date so far, that relationship between Cookie and Jamal in S1. Lucious came to appreciate and love Jamal because of Cookie but his aversion for Andre kept on because of his illness, and that never changed up until the end of S3. 22 hours ago, phoenics said: After Anika talked to her mother, she arrived at her home and Hakeem was waiting for her. I remember because she was on the phone and walking on her street. Her mom was no help really so Anika was a crying mess when she got to her door. She had just finished telling her mother that she had no one. She hung up, got to the door and Hakeem appeared behind her. He went to kiss her, she dropped her keys and mouthed "thank you" as if Hakeem was an answered prayer. Hakeem came to Anika because he was feeling vulnerable and alone after his kidnapping and no one else was really listening to him. So he went to Anika. I don't think Hakeem ever loved Anika - but I don't think she loved him either. I think that in that moment, they were simply what each other needed at that moment and neither of them seemed to have bad intent - just needs. Anika needed to not feel alone and Hakeem needed to feel alive I guess. I'm not sure what scene you're remembering of Anika showing up at Hakeem's door but that's not the scene where Anika got pregnant with Bella - the scene I just mentioned is. Correction taken. My mistake on thinking Anika came to Hakeem's apartment when it was the other way around. Anyway, the scene that came to mind was S2, Ep9 when Hakeem clearly told her he didn't love her and Anika shot back "Stop fighting it Hakeem, you know you love me," or something to that effect. The other scene was when she came over to his apartment and he told her he was in love with another woman and Anika was all over him. It was painful to watch. 9 hours ago, journalism16 said: And let's not forget that Anika was threatened by Cookie the moment she came home because she knew that Cookie and Lucious had history and children, she knew she couldn't hold onto him, because of the connection they would always have, while Anika did not have that connection with him. I agree that Anika did push herself onto Hakeem and they had more of a platonic relationship in Season 1, and with Cookie coming back to reclaim part of the company, and rebuilding a relationship with her two oldest children, while also trying to help Hakeem grow up, and build a relationship with him, Anika had much more to lose in Season 1, than Cookie ever did because she didn't have Lucious's children, and Cookie did. Great recap. I remember all that. However Anika threatened to betray Lucious to his rival Billy Beretti (or whatever his name was) and that almost resulted in some gang war-fare on the streets. Again Lucious was forced to stay with Anika when he had her father the doctor, falsify his medical report about his health. Marrying Anika was the deal he struck with her Dad. In the end however, Anika lost her grip on Lucious but Cookie is still trying to get her grip on him. What a battle!!!! 9 hours ago, journalism16 said: But it must have happened in the scene where she is going home after walking and he's waiting for her, but a few days after that, Rhonda was staying with Anika and Andre comes over so he can talk to her, and Anika ends up throwing up after eating, and Rhonda asks her if she's pregnant, and Andre asks her who the father is, and she reveals that it's Hakeem, which then prompts both of them to help her tell the family in Season 2 Episode 14: "Time Shall Unfold." Sad poor Rhonda didn't realize she was dealing with the devil. However she still figured it out when she saw those shoes in Anika's house which triggered her memory and made her remember. SMH 9 hours ago, journalism16 said: And that's where the family finds out, and Hakeem is surprised, but asks, How you know the baby's even mine? And she says, "You're the only one I've been with, after your father." "You're the only one I've been with after your father." Good Lord!!!!! SMH Edited October 26, 2017 by Margohill Link to comment
journalism16 October 26, 2017 Share October 26, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Margohill said: He was paid alright but Lucious made sure he wasn't involved in any important decision making and to focus on raising money to support Jamal and Hakeem's concerts. There were a few scenes where Lucious gave him a serious talk down about concentrating on getting the funds no matter how difficult it was. that was very stressful for Andre. He was toiling away IMO trying to come up with all kinds of ways to raise the money for their concerts. BTW, all the boys lived lavishly so it's not as if Andre was treated extra-special in that aspect. I think Hakeem was the most spoiled and lived extra luxuriously. Let's be honest here. Luscious has NEVER dealt with Andre's mental issues. He has shunned him because of it and never even visited him at the mental health center when he had his breakdown. That was sad. Lucious was so ashamed of the disease Andre inherited from his mother that he took Andre to a FAKE grave and lied that his mother was dead when she was actually at an institution which Andre later found out. That was sad. To understand why Andre felt the way he did, his father needed to have talked to him and get what was ailing him. Lucious never understood the self pity Andre must have felt to be put down time and time again by his father because of his illness which must have made him behave in certain hurtful ways. Andre became angry and vengeful because of his father. Lucious has himself to blame for what Andre became. Never saw Andre being condescending to his mother at any time WHATSOEVER. In fact when Cookie just got out of jail and Lucious was refusing to make her CEO or give her any part of the company. Andre was the one who sat his mother down and gave her the brilliant idea which gave her the leverage she had over Lucious to get the financial support she ended up getting from Lucious. Yes Cookie has shown love to Andre but IMO, it's miles short of what she has shown Jamal and Hakeem. What do expect anyone to do without much support from your loved ones? Your baby gets killed, no one reacts, your wife dies, not much of even a funeral. Heck I would learn to care for myself under those circumstances too. I totally get Andre. There are a few, but I choose not to get into it. It's obvious from watching the show. That's how I came to my conclusion, by watching the show..LOL!!!! I think we see things differently. Losing your wife and child can never be equivocated to "losing at a game". Heck it is much more than that. Andre is entitled to feeling betrayed and hurt with the kind of loses he has suffered and deserves every right to be angry and vengeful. Nothing spoilsport about that, not at all. I agree with everything you said, while responding to Dee. In the pilot, as we are introduced to these complex but endearing characters, we see that all of the boys did live lavishly, so it was not just Andre. Andre was having a very difficult time finding the funds for Jamal and Hakeem's careers. I remember in season 1, episode 5, "Dangerous Bonds," when Hakeem demoed his song "Drip Drop," to his father and Anika, (such a catchy song, but will never listen to it again in the episode, it takes me at least two weeks to get it out of my head, lol). Lucious told Andre to find whatever money he could to produce the video, and later on, when Rhonda calls him to see what was going on between Tiana and India, she noticed that her husband was frustrated and stressed, as he told her, "I've got to find the money to fund my demise." So he was very stressed about this. Lucious has never been able to deal with Andre's mental issues because he was probably never able to process and understand what was going on with his mother as a child, so when he took him to that fake grave, it seemed as though even with their grandmother still alive, maybe he felt like it would be better to have her in an institution than to have her meet his family, but then Andre found out the truth from the journalist Harper Scott. But perhaps, Lucious could not accept that his mother and son have this illness because he is not only very ashamed, but terrified about what the world would think about his family. And I agree it was very sad how he found out, as well as Cookie, Jamal, and Hakeem. I loved that he gave his mother the leverage she needed to get what she knew she deserved from Lucious, (even though it wasn't everything she wanted at first) and in the pilot he apologized to his mother for not coming to see her while she was in prison. And I definitely agree with everything else about how he felt when it comes to his family. But the game they started, was him wanting Empire, and he knew that either Jamal or Hakeem would get the keys to the kingdom, and at the end of Season 1, Jamal inherited it, but of course, in Season 2, Jamal's music suffered as he had to take over everything while their father was in jail, and later on, when Hakeem voted their father out as CEO and Chairmen thanks of course, to Camilla, his music suffered as well. Edited October 26, 2017 by journalism16 1 Link to comment
Margohill October 26, 2017 Share October 26, 2017 (edited) 26 minutes ago, phoenics said: I agree that Andre is entitled to feel hurt and angry - but his actions nearly resulted in his mother being killed. If Lucious hadn't been there to shove her out of the way, she would have died or been seriously hurt instead of Lucious. Also - if Andre hadn't been given the company by his parents - he would have let that bomb go off without a peep. And Cookie or Lucious would have been killed. Probably both, since they would have had no warning. That's why it is always said never to make a decision based on your emotions because you don't think clearly and objectively when you do. Andre was acting out of hurt and anger and Shyne helped him plot the whole thing since Andre was inexperienced at this sort of thing. His intention was to hurt his father and at the time, who knew Lucious was going to make up with Cookie and fly off into the horizon as one happy couple? Even Cookie herself didn't know Lucious was going to make up with her. Things didn't go according to plan and unfortunately Cookie got caught in it. SAD. The point is, Lucious has himself to blame for getting Andre in this dark state of mind. 26 minutes ago, phoenics said: That's not to say that he doesn't have a right to be angry - but he's plotted murder - and Lucious lost a leg and his memory due to it. Andre's own actions have cost him Empire - if he hadn't set that bomb, Lucious and Cookie would be off seeing the world and Andre would be CEO. LOL!!! I totally expect hell to come raining down on poor Andre when Lucious and Cookie find out he was behind that bombing. They will make him pay dearly. Poor Andre, the dude never catches a break...LOL!!!!! 26 minutes ago, phoenics said: No one on this show has a monopoly on being bad - the characters are all gray. Some are grayer than others (Lucious), but they are all pretty much gray. Anika is pretty bad but then again Andre is too. Before the kill plot I would've said Anika was probably further along the line in terms of being dark, but Andre caught up super fast, lol. True, but Andre is the unfortunate one who seems to have garnered a lot of sympathy because of his illness and how his father has treated him because of it, and losing his wife and child was the ultimate tragedy for him. SAD Edited October 26, 2017 by Margohill 1 Link to comment
phoenics October 26, 2017 Share October 26, 2017 I think we agree on what happened - where I diverge from you guys a bit is in the tone. Andre "helped" Cookie in the pilot - but it was also partially self serving. So while yes he "helped" her, he was also doing it for himself and Cookie sensed that condescension coming from him anyway. Andre was dripping with it. He didn't have to "say" it for the condescension to be rolling off of him in waves. So much so that Cookie commented on that in later episodes - that she felt like Andre was ashamed of her. Subtext is important. And his comment about "going to find money" was less about him being stressed and more about him being upset that he was the money man and not the one out front. Also - the reason Cookie seemed to focus more on Jamal was because he was being railroaded by Lucious for being gay - Cookie wanted to put a stop to what she saw as abusive behavior. And Jamal was the first she tried to save. In season 2 it was Hakeem. Cookie even said that she always thought Andre had it so together - so in S1 she didn't realize he was in need as much as Jamal because Andre put up such a good front. Plus Cookie was unaware of his illness and didn't understand it because when she went to prison when mental illness was still a huge stigma. Also - when Cookie came out - she had to adjust to a whole world that had changed while she was on the inside. I feel like maybe you guys are seeing this from Andre's PoV and that's great - but I'm trying to look at the cast and family as a whole within the context of what we're shown. That's why maybe it's easier for me to think of all of the characters as gray and not some hierarchy of evil. Though I do think both Anika and Andre have crossed lines. But Lucious is definitely the worst to me. Or was. Light is a confusing character to me. Link to comment
Margohill October 26, 2017 Share October 26, 2017 (edited) 42 minutes ago, phoenics said: I feel like maybe you guys are seeing this from Andre's PoV and that's great - but I'm trying to look at the cast and family as a whole within the context of what we're shown. That's why maybe it's easier for me to think of all of the characters as gray and not some hierarchy of evil. Though I do think both Anika and Andre have crossed lines. But Lucious is definitely the worst to me. Or was. Light is a confusing character to me. A 'writer' TENDS to look at their production or show from the whole POV of all the cast and characters as a whole. That's what they have to do in order to create storylines and move the plot along. However, these characters come to life thanks to the great actors and that's where the viewers come into play. 'Viewers' watch they show and tend to latch onto certain characters that they either love or hate. That's how they develop passion for the show. They watch shows because of specific characters that they've come to love or hate to see their success or demise. Writers and viewers will never watch the same show with the same perspective. That's how it works, not that I'm implying that you are a writer @phoenics. Just sayin' Edited October 26, 2017 by Margohill 1 Link to comment
Dee October 26, 2017 Share October 26, 2017 (edited) Quote but Lucious made sure he wasn't involved in any important decision making and to focus on raising money to support Jamal and Hakeem's concerts. That's simply not true. Andre was Empire's CFO. Chief Financial Officer. Which means he was responsible for Empire's entire cash flow. Jamal refused to take any money from Lucious for the entire first season, and even when he became a overnight success, he continued to slowly build his career. Hakeem was focused on recording singles until Drip Drop became a huge pop hit. Neither of them were legit 'stars' until the second season, by which time Andre was acquiring X-Stream and being appointed president of his own Empire sub-label. Quote There were a few scenes where Lucious gave him a serious talk down about concentrating on getting the funds no matter how difficult it was. Lucious put pressure on Andre to help Empire to go public. The only time Lucious put much financial pressure on Andre, in terms of Jamal & Hakeem's careers, was when Hakeem needed to finish the video for Drip Drop, which Andre accomplished by screwing over Cookie. Quote He was toiling away IMO trying to come up with all kinds of ways to raise the money for their concerts. Except he wasn't. Jamal only performed for Empire events that were directly related to the company going public. In the ensuing seasons, Jamal continues building his career in small, mostly independent venues as his rep builds as a solo artist. Hakeem mainly worked as a digital artist and, after he returns to Empire, spends the majority of his time in the studio than he does actually performing. Quote Let's be honest here. Luscious has NEVER dealt with Andre's mental issues. Except he has. He may not have told Andre the bio reasons for his disease, but he paid for the best care for Andre's mental health situation. Quote He has shunned him because of it and never even visited him at the mental health center when he had his breakdown. He didn't shun Andre. He didn't want to visit him at the mental health ward with the rest of the family, but was completely fine with seeing Andre later at home when the family was to sign over their proxies. Quote Lucious was so ashamed of the disease Andre inherited from his mother that he took Andre to a FAKE grave and lied that his mother was dead when she was actually at an institution which Andre later found out. No. Lucious said that he was so traumatized from his own upbringing, that in his belief, it was better to leave the past in the past. Prior to Harper snitching about Leah there was nothing to be accomplished by dredging up ancient history. Quote To understand why Andre felt the way he did, his father needed to have talked to him and get what was ailing him. Lucious knew why Andre felt the way he did. He had the best care and opportunities Lucious money could provide. Andre made himself into an eternal victim after learning about Leah, which is exactly why Lucious wanted to leave the past in the past. Quote Andre became angry and vengeful because of his father. Andre chose to be intensely destructive because he didn't get what he believed he was entitled to. Whatever "reasons" he may have had ceased being relevant when he decided his family members were acceptable collateral damage when it came to winning. Quote Never saw Andre being condescending to his mother at any time WHATSOEVER Andre constantly uses Cookie. He spends the entire first season alternating between sneering at her and treating her as a weapon. When she lightly confronts him about his reasons for never visiting her, he gives her the most insincere apology, WITHOUT refuting any of her assertions. Quote In fact when Cookie just got out of jail and Lucious was refusing to make her CEO or give her any part of the company, Andre was the one who sat his mother down and gave her the brilliant idea which gave her the leverage she had over Lucious to get the financial support she ended up getting from Lucious. Except Lucious had no power to make Cookie CEO nor did Andre "give Cookie the idea for leverage to get financial support." Cookie had already gotten that, from Lucious, before she'd even seen Andre. Andre visiting Cookie was only to use his mother to further his and Rhonda's schemes. The fact that she, as always, supported him wholeheartedly, without fail, says more about her than it does about him. Quote What do expect anyone to do without much support from your loved ones? Again, please name an instance when, other than inadvertently forgetting the anniversary of Rhonda's death, any non-Lucious Lyon has ever failed to support Andre. Quote Yes Cookie has shown love to Andre but IMO, it's miles short of what she has shown Jamal and Hakeem. It's not really. Cookie readily admits to being close with Jamal, but that's never stopped her from bonding with Dre & Keem. It's Keem & Dre who've had their respective issues bonding with her. Over time, Cookie & Hakeem have grown extremely close; Andre, however, has remained, relatively, distant because of his massive sense of entitlement. Also, Cookie has been WAY more patient and compassionate with Andre than she has with Hakeem & Jamal. Quote There are a few, but I choose not to get into it. It's obvious from watching the show. That's how I came to my conclusion, by watching the show..LOL!!!! If you're not going to give concrete factual examples, that actually occurred on the show, what's the point of even bringing up their supposed 'lack of support?' Quote Losing your wife and child can never be equivocated to "losing at a game". It was a game. He and Rhonda wanted to play. And lost. Big time. If he wants to be bitter about it then he has nobody to blame but himself. JMHO 21 hours ago, journalism16 said: Lucious told Andre to find whatever money he could to produce the video The only reason Lucious was putting pressure on Andre to get the video funded was because of Empire's IPO. Other than that, Andre had very little interaction with Hakeem and Jamal's artistic careers. He spent the majority of his time getting Empire's IPO ready and working with Rhonda to destroy his family. Quote But perhaps, Lucious could not accept that his mother and son have this illness because he is not only very ashamed, but terrified about what the world would think about his family. Lucious was dealing with his mother's illness the best way he could. As Lucious told Andre, when Andre wanted to get baptized, being dipped underneath water does not make one's sins go away. In this life, one has to live with their choices, for better or for worse. Each present generation looks to improve upon subsequent generations, and in Lucious case, he's done better than his own childhood. He's certainly not a good person, but his kids have experienced a much better upbringing, relatively, than he ever did. If the Lyon Brothers are ungrateful for the advantages, his and Cookie's grinding has afforded them, which they often are, then that says more about them than it does their parents. Edited October 26, 2017 by Dee 2 Link to comment
phoenics October 26, 2017 Share October 26, 2017 19 hours ago, Margohill said: A 'writer' TENDS to look at their production or show from the whole POV of all the cast and characters as a whole. That's what they have to do in order to create storylines and move the plot along. However, these characters come to life thanks to the great actors and that's where the viewers come into play. 'Viewers' watch they show and tend to latch onto certain characters that they either love or hate. That's how they develop passion for the show. They watch shows because of specific characters that they've come to love or hate to see their success or demise. Writers and viewers will never watch the same show with the same perspective. That's how it works, not that I'm implying that you are a writer @phoenics. Just sayin' I am a writer, so... but I still also sometimes latch onto characters - ones I strongly identify with. For this show, that's Cookie - she kinda represents the audience in my view. The other reason I guess is also because none of the characters are necessarily "good" to me, so I just don't get worked up in character v character - unless it's Lucious v someone. Or a case where a character is a clear villain (Claudia). 2 Link to comment
journalism16 October 27, 2017 Share October 27, 2017 3 hours ago, phoenics said: I am a writer, so... but I still also sometimes latch onto characters - ones I strongly identify with. For this show, that's Cookie - she kinda represents the audience in my view. The other reason I guess is also because none of the characters are necessarily "good" to me, so I just don't get worked up in character v character - unless it's Lucious v someone. Or a case where a character is a clear villain (Claudia). I am a writer as well, but I am invested in all of the characters even the ones I don't necessarily like, and I enjoy the compelling storylines that are happening within the Lyon family, and the other characters, but I absolutely love the characters because they are complex and endearing, and that's what I love about not only this show, but others that I watch as well. 1 Link to comment
Margohill October 27, 2017 Share October 27, 2017 12 hours ago, phoenics said: I am a writer, so... but I still also sometimes latch onto characters - ones I strongly identify with. For this show, that's Cookie - she kinda represents the audience in my view. The other reason I guess is also because none of the characters are necessarily "good" to me, so I just don't get worked up in character v character - unless it's Lucious v someone. Or a case where a character is a clear villain (Claudia). The problem with writers liking certain characters is that it shows up in the writing which could tend to be biased. I have seen that in so many shows where the show gets popular with extremely good storytelling and with time the stories become unrealistic and skewed because the writing begins to favor certain characters regardless of how the story has been going and what would be expected in the realm of reality. It's nice to like some characters but it is more important to PAY ATTENTION TO THE STORYTELLING. 9 hours ago, journalism16 said: I am a writer as well, but I am invested in all of the characters even the ones I don't necessarily like, EXCELLENT. This usually leads to OBJECTIVE storytelling where one character's storyline isn't favored and better written versus the others. All characters should be written in a balanced and objective way and the only way to do that is to INVEST IN ALL THE CHARACTERS. 1 Link to comment
phoenics October 27, 2017 Share October 27, 2017 (edited) 5 hours ago, Margohill said: The problem with writers liking certain characters is that it shows up in the writing which could tend to be biased. I have seen that in so many shows where the show gets popular with extremely good storytelling and with time the stories become unrealistic and skewed because the writing begins to favor certain characters regardless of how the story has been going and what would be expected in the realm of reality. It's nice to like some characters but it is more important to PAY ATTENTION TO THE STORYTELLING. I'm trying not to feel like you're bashing me personally - but when I said I was a writer but I sometimes latch onto characters - I was talking about a personal hobby where I write fiction, but when I watch tv, I do sometimes tend to watch for my own entertainment so I do fall in love with certain characters. I don't write for Empire or any tv show - I watch these shows for my own entertainment. As I said in an earlier comment - I tend to watch shows as a whole and try to see them from an ensemble viewpoint - and to that you answered that only writers do that and then when I said that I was a writer but that I also latch onto characters I identify with - for the show that would be Cookie. It feels like you're trying to have it both ways - you clearly have a strong bias for Andre - but you're not allowing others to have biases for characters they like, or to even see all of the characters as gray. I've seen this bias with some writers - kind of like the bias you've exhibited toward Andre and against Anika - where suddenly the show becomes all about them. Sleepy Hollow was an example of that when Katrina took over everything. So I understand what you mean - I just don't get why you decided to apply that label to me and insult me when I was talking about my enjoyment of the show. Quote EXCELLENT. This usually leads to OBJECTIVE storytelling where one character's storyline isn't favored and better written versus the others. All characters should be written in a balanced and objective way and the only way to do that is to INVEST IN ALL THE CHARACTERS. Again - I wasn't talking about how I write - I was talking about how I WATCH the show. This is tiring. 15 hours ago, journalism16 said: I am a writer as well, but I am invested in all of the characters even the ones I don't necessarily like, and I enjoy the compelling storylines that are happening within the Lyon family, and the other characters, but I absolutely love the characters because they are complex and endearing, and that's what I love about not only this show, but others that I watch as well. I'm talking not about my writing - but about how I invest in characters on shows I watch. I don't appreciate all of these insinuations about me as a writer - when that was an aside comment - and has little to do with my enjoyment of the show. I'm watching for entertainment - though I do try to appreciate all characters as presented - in this case, they are all gray. Incidentally, me looking at the whole ensemble objectively (which was what I was arguing FOR) is what prompted the other poster to accuse me of being like a writer. My response was that I was a writer, but when I watch shows, I do get invested in one character that I identify with - which is kinda the point of enjoying a tv show, even if I still enjoy the ensemble as a whole. This all grew from this Andre vs Anika war going on in the thread and me saying that I saw both Andre and Anika as the same as gray and that I'm seeing the whole ensemble of the show as gray. Then I got told that only writers look at it that way - which is not always true anyway - but the point is I'm watching this show to enjoy it. But whatever. Apparently I'm the new punching bag in the thread since Dee opted out (wisely). I'm done. Edited October 27, 2017 by phoenics 2 Link to comment
journalism16 October 27, 2017 Share October 27, 2017 49 minutes ago, phoenics said: I'm trying not to feel like you're bashing me personally - but when I said I was a writer but I sometimes latch onto characters - I was talking about a personal hobby where I write fiction, but when I watch tv, I do sometimes tend to watch for my own entertainment so I do fall in love with certain characters. I don't write for Empire or any tv show - I watch these shows for my own entertainment. As I said in an earlier comment - I tend to watch shows as a whole and try to see them from an ensemble viewpoint - and to that you answered that only writers do that and then when I said that I was a writer but that I also latch onto characters I identify with - for the show that would be Cookie. It feels like you're trying to have it both ways - you clearly have a strong bias for Andre - but you're not allowing others to have biases for characters they like, or to even see all of the characters as gray. I've seen this bias with some writers - kind of like the bias you've exhibited toward Andre and against Anika - where suddenly the show becomes all about them. Sleepy Hollow was an example of that when Katrina took over everything. So I understand what you mean - I just don't get why you decided to apply that label to me and insult me when I was talking about my enjoyment of the show. Again - I wasn't talking about how I write - I was talking about how I WATCH the show. This is tiring. I'm talking not about my writing - but about how I invest in characters on shows I watch. I don't appreciate all of these insinuations about me as a writer - when that was an aside comment - and has little to do with my enjoyment of the show. I'm watching for entertainment - though I do try to appreciate all characters as presented - in this case, they are all gray. Incidentally, me looking at the whole ensemble objectively (which was what I was arguing FOR) is what prompted the other poster to accuse me of being like a writer. My response was that I was a writer, but when I watch shows, I do get invested in one character that I identify with - which is kinda the point of enjoying a tv show, even if I still enjoy the ensemble as a whole. This all grew from this Andre vs Anika war going on in the thread and me saying that I saw both Andre and Anika as the same as gray and that I'm seeing the whole ensemble of the show as gray. Then I got told that only writers look at it that way - which is not always true anyway - but the point is I'm watching this show to enjoy it. But whatever. Apparently I'm the new punching bag in the thread since Dee opted out (wisely). I'm done. When I said that I was a writer I was referring to myself because I write stories, it is great that you write as a hobby, I don't write for any shows either, but I do aspire,to become a published author. I am not bashing you at all, and believe me I am invested in the characters as well, not as a viewer, but as a writer as well. I love certain shows because of the compelling storylines and everything for entertainment. I enjoy a lot of shows just as much as you do for entertainment as well as writing because it gives me ideas for stories. I am sorry if you thought I was bashing you, when I wasn't. And you are right, I look at this show like Scandal, These are characters that are not good, nor are they bad, it is all mixed up in that lovely gray area, which I love as well. I'm sorry you felt like I was bashing you, my apologies. 1 Link to comment
phoenics October 27, 2017 Share October 27, 2017 21 minutes ago, journalism16 said: When I said that I was a writer I was referring to myself because I write stories, it is great that you write as a hobby, I don't write for any shows either, but I do aspire,to become a published author. I am not bashing you at all, and believe me I am invested in the characters as well, not as a viewer, but as a writer as well. I love certain shows because of the compelling storylines and everything for entertainment. I enjoy a lot of shows just as much as you do for entertainment as well as writing because it gives me ideas for stories. I am sorry if you thought I was bashing you, when I wasn't. And you are right, I look at this show like Scandal, These are characters that are not good, nor are they bad, it is all mixed up in that lovely gray area, which I love as well. I'm sorry you felt like I was bashing you, my apologies. Thank you - I didn't get that vibe from you really - I think I was just really frustrated by the time I got to your post - and then my posts got merged... my feeling of being bashed was coming more from Margohill. But thank you - I think we're aligned on how we think. :) 3 Link to comment
journalism16 October 27, 2017 Share October 27, 2017 You are welcome, we just have different ways of looking at things, especially when it comes to this show. 2 Link to comment
Margohill October 28, 2017 Share October 28, 2017 8 hours ago, phoenics said: I'm trying not to feel like you're bashing me personally Why would I want to bash you and what's to gain from it? I see this as a discussion forum where we are all arguing 'for' OR 'against' a particular topic that was brought up. If you feel that way, sorry to let you know that was not my intention and I worded things the wrong way when it came to the issue about 'writers' and 'writing' not to personally attack someone whom I don't know anything about. Pardon me, I will work on my wording in the future. 5 hours ago, journalism16 said: we just have different ways of looking at things, especially when it comes to this show. Exactly, and I think we should leave it at that. Thanks @journalism16, you are very, very nice. Link to comment
journalism16 October 29, 2017 Share October 29, 2017 22 hours ago, Margohill said: Why would I want to bash you and what's to gain from it? I see this as a discussion forum where we are all arguing 'for' OR 'against' a particular topic that was brought up. If you feel that way, sorry to let you know that was not my intention and I worded things the wrong way when it came to the issue about 'writers' and 'writing' not to personally attack someone whom I don't know anything about. Pardon me, I will work on my wording in the future. Exactly, and I think we should leave it at that. Thanks @journalism16, you are very, very nice. You are welcome. I think whether we agree or disagree, we all can have healthy discussions about Empire, a show we all love, without becoming angry with each other, even though at times, it happens. 1 Link to comment
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