GH History Lessons: Because History is Always Repeating Itself

[ulkis]

I wasn't watching it at the time either, but I have gathered that the answers are

 

Who decided he should go from low-level thug to romantic leading man?

 

 

Claire Labine

 

and 

Was it because MB and VM had such blazing chemistry?

 

yes

[dubbel zout]

So it's something of a Luke-and-Laura situation without putting Sonny through the necessary wringer. Gotcha.

 

Given how popular antiheroes have been throughout the ages, I'm still kind of surprised that Sonny has gotten away with all the completely disgusting things he's done. At this point, I think Sonny is irredeemable—mostly because I doubt the show has the necessary time it would take to properly redeem him, and it's also probably too late to truly save Sonny. He's done too many awful things, IMO.

 

I highly doubt Ron is willing or able to make Sonny the social pariah he needs to be after the AJ reveal. Oh, people will be mad at him, but I'm sure six months down the line nearly everyone will have gotten over it, as always happens. And of course Sonny will whine that Ava goaded him into it, so he's not really the one who killed AJ.

Edited September 19, 2014 by dubbel zout

[Dandesun]

Back in those days, however, people were still allowed to dislike Sonny, distrust him and actually voice that.

 

Ned has always despised Sonny, for example. It bothered him that Lois was friends with him and that Brenda loved him. He had no problem saying how unwise it was for them to go into business with him. For that matter, even though Lois did go into business with Sonny with her record company, she also made it clear that if any of his 'business' touched it, he was out and she wouldn't accept any excuses. And she lived up to that.

 

None of the Q's liked Sonny, either, except for Lila who thought he was charming -- and man did that piss me off after a bit. It was like they used Lila to push the Sonny agenda.

 

Kevin didn't like Sonny, either. Nor did Mac. There were loads of people who didn't like him and saw him as what he was: a thug and tied to the mob with no intention of getting out. And if they kept it that way, fine, but they decided to go the route of Sonny Owns Everything and turned him, Carly and Jason into the three most important people in Port Charles who never, ever lose.

 

And anyone who disliked any of the three were soon painted as corrupt in their own way so the audience was supposed to see them as hypocrites. That's where it all went wrong.

[rur]

 

How did Sonny become a lead? Who decided he should go from low-level thug to romantic leading man?

 

There was a time when he was quite attractive, and he and Brenda did have chemistry. If you look at his picture here: http://www.welovesoaps.net/2010/04/50-greatest-soap-actors-15-maurice.html , you can probably see that at one time  he could have been forgiven for more of his actions. Now, he's become a caricature of the character he used to be. 

[dubbel zout]

There was a time when he was quite attractive

 

It's not about looks for me—Tony Geary was certainly not the conventional heartthrob. It's about why did Sonny become a romantic lead when from the get-go he's been an awful misogynist?

 

And anyone who disliked any of the three were soon painted as corrupt in their own way so the audience was supposed to see them as hypocrites. That's where it all went wrong.

 

What, you don't think cheating on your wife is just as bad as nearly blowing up your daughter with a car bomb?

[Chairperson Meow]

Dude, I did love Karen throwing the pills at him in disgust as though she'd seen him for the puppet master he really was. That entire storyline was him manipulating Karen, a young college kid who was molested and using it against her when she dared leave and then Stone, a street kid with nothing till he found his brother. He manipulated Stone, sadly till the end. I think if Antonio, who played Jagger had been as good an actor as he was hot, the story might have played differently. He had excellent moments, but Maurice was good as the evil puppet master. But as someone who watched Roger Thorpe and Todd Manning, I can say not giving a real redemption going through the ringer story to Sonny was a huge mistake.

Sonny and Karen was like if Todd never fell in love with Rebecca, but raped and tortured her at the Temple. If he didn't rescue Marty, CJ, Jessica at the Gorge. If we never ever saw a single decent side of Todd that was self loathing. But still, Maurice at his best was never as chilling as Roger on the stand playing Todd saying "I forgive you, Marty." Dude I'm sorry. But no. Sonny treated Brenda the way Todd treated Tea,, when she was really his Blair. Huge mistake.

Edited September 19, 2014 by Grrpants09

[UYI]

 

Dude, I did love Karen throwing the pills at him in disgust as though she'd seen him for the puppet master he really was.

 

 

That was actually one of the first signs that Claire Labine had taken over GH. Bill Levinson was the HW who had created Sonny and the stripper storyline with Karen, very shortly before he left, and Claire, who wanted to end the story as quickly as possible, began the process by having Karen finally stand up to Sonny and throw the pills he was feeding her in his face. 

[LegalParrot81]

 

It's about why did Sonny become a romantic lead when from the get-go he's been an awful misogynist?

 

I always thought that it was because Claire wanted to make Sonny GH's answer to Joe Novak, the original misunderstood mobster.  She also saw the charisma MB had back in the day and once she saw the on air presence of MB and VM, the train left the station and headed on a course that totally went out of control. A train that's out of control to this day.

Edited September 19, 2014 by LegalParrot81

[Dandesun]

 

I always thought that it was because Claire wanted to make Sonny GH's answer to Joe Novak, the original misunderstood mobster.

 

She did have a thing for recreating facets of Ryan's Hope onto other shows.

[Bringonthedrama]

For those of you who know the L&L history really well, I have a question: has Laura ever acknowledged that the rape at the disco was actually rape, and that Stavros coercing her in exchange for a little freedom equaled rape? I've been watching some Return of the Cassadines clips. When Lucky confronted her, she refused to say she was raped. Same thing when she and Nikolas were on a park bench and she said there were a lot of layers to her and Luke. Nikolas tearfully asked her if his father raped her, and she said no. She said she and his father loved each other 'in their own way' - but I'm wondering if that was the time when she was thinking Stefan was actually Nik's bio father while Nik assumed (and Laura didn't correct) that they were talking about Stavros. She told Nikolas he had been a wanted child, and a blessing. 

 

In a scene in the hospital, Laura told Luke that she didn't want to have sex with Stavros - that she gave up fighting/agreed to 'function as his wife' as long as she could have some time for herself. I found it disturbing, that it seems like Laura thought it was only rape if it was like Liz's situation - violently assaulted by a stranger in darkness. She seemed practically apologetic to Luke that she had a son via Stavros, and Luke was such an asshole about Nik that he actually referred to him as the "specimen" when talking to Lucky. I still have a hard time wrapping my mind around Laura being angry and defensive that her kids found out about it and wanted to know how she could love Luke, defend him, marry him - unless deep down she felt she was very emotionally unhealthy and hated being called on it. Maybe it was too painful to admit she was a victim of the obsessiveness of both fathers of her children?

 

Also, when Stefan came on scene, he had nothing but contempt for Laura - despite knowing she had been his brother's prisoner, didn't want to be the "wife," and she abandoned Nikolas because she thought Helena had Lesley killed.  He knew his brother was insane and obsessed, so all that business about her "crimes," being responsible for death in his family, and being the worst mother ever (re:Nikolas) does not compute. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

I don't know about saying Stavros raping her was rape, but yes, after Liz was raped and Genie returned, there was an awesome scene, so raw, where Laura yelled at Luke saying "How could you call me your Angel and Rape me?"

 

If I'm not mistaken, even years ago, Luke said he'd raped Laura, and even Laura said it was...until all of sudden, Laura called it "making love for the first time" (Barf); and then it turned into seduction because Monty wanted to keep Anthony Geary.

[ulkis]

For those of you who know the L&L history really well, I have a question: has Laura ever acknowledged that the rape at the disco was actually rape, and that Stavros coercing her in exchange for a little freedom equaled rape? I've been watching some Return of the Cassadines clips. When Lucky confronted her, she refused to say she was raped. Same thing when she and Nikolas were on a park bench and she said there were a lot of layers to her and Luke. Nikolas tearfully asked her if his father raped her, and she said no. She said she and his father loved each other 'in their own way' - but I'm wondering if that was the time when she was thinking Stefan was actually Nik's bio father while Nik assumed (and Laura didn't correct) that they were talking about Stavros. She told Nikolas he had been a wanted child, and a blessing. 

 

Yes, she was talking about Stefan in those scenes but letting Nik think she was talking about Stavros.

 

Also, when Stefan came on scene, he had nothing but contempt for Laura - despite knowing she had been his brother's prisoner, didn't want to be the "wife," and she abandoned Nikolas because she thought Helena had Lesley killed.  He knew his brother was insane and obsessed, so all that business about her "crimes," being responsible for death in his family, and being the worst mother ever (re:Nikolas) does not compute.

 

He was angry at her, but not long after - about three months or so - he and Laura had a talk about their past on the island and he pretty much admitted he had just been taking things out on her, although there was a good deal of legitimate anger, especially when she told Nikolas in the hospital they shouldn't see each other again.

[testardo]

TIIC of the show can change it. BUT, they were both rapes. She was held prisoner on the island and only allowed to breath after she had sex. She had no choice. Luke raped Laura. Both boys should hate their fathers for what they did to their mother. If you are being held prisoner you do what you have to to get away alive. Laura did. As for luke Barf. All I can say about that is I am glad I didn't watch then. While Laura was being held on the island wasn't Luke running around with Demi , or Holly. he certainly wasn't celebrate. when Nic showed up I hated Luke hated him all the while he was actually angry at him for being born and he actually called Lulu a name because she had Cassidine blood now with such contempt  why,  because Nic decided to save her. 

[Chairperson Meow]

Nik was more interesting then.

[GHScorpiosRule]

TIIC of the show can change it. BUT, they were both rapes. She was held prisoner on the island and only allowed to breath after she had sex. She had no choice. Luke raped Laura. Both boys should hate their fathers for what they did to their mother. If you are being held prisoner you do what you have to to get away alive. Laura did. As for luke Barf. All I can say about that is I am glad I didn't watch then. While Laura was being held on the island wasn't Luke running around with Demi , or Holly. he certainly wasn't celebrate. when Nic showed up I hated Luke hated him all the while he was actually angry at him for being born and he actually called Lulu a name because she had Cassidine blood now with such contempt  why,  because Nic decided to save her. 

 

And the show has acknowledged/said that both were rapes.  And as for Luke not being celibate when Demi showed up, well, they all thought Laura had "died" and Demi Moore's character was linked up romantically with Robert; it was Holly and that other blonde, Connie? who Luke was involved with during that period.

 

When spouses are thought to be dead with no bodies, all characters eventually start relationships with others. Luke did it, so did Felicia, Robert, Patrick, Rick..

[jsbt]

Laura called it rape when she and Luke talked about it in '98. It took a bit of doing, IIRC, but she was straight-up. She told Luke whatever they felt for each other prior to that night "wasn't an excuse for rape."

 

As for Sonny, IIRC it wasn't just Claire Labine but Wendy Riche. Everyone at the show saw that Maurice Benard was lightning in a bottle, especially with Vanessa Marcil, and they fought to keep him in place and on track BTS. I think it was the right thing to do because IMO for many years he was a wonderful star of the show, one of several. The key was that back then he was one of several diverse male stars, and that he was always a certain type of the character - wedded to the underworld and looked down upon by society. That all changed when Bob Guza and Brian Frons took full control, and that is what made Sonny what he is today. While RC and FV have dialed some of that back signficantly, have re-introduced a little more parity, they still make excuses for the character and the worst of them all is the way they play him half of the time right now as a mischievous romantic lead, when we all know he killed A.J. in cold blood.

Edited September 20, 2014 by jsbt

[ulkis]

Laura called it rape when she and Luke talked about it in '98. It took a bit of doing, IIRC, but she was straight-up. She told Luke whatever they felt for each other prior to that night "wasn't an excuse for rape."

 

As for Sonny, IIRC it wasn't just Claire Labine but Wendy Riche. Everyone at the show saw that Maurice Benard was lightning in a bottle, especially with Vanessa Marcil, and they fought to keep him in place and on track BTS. I think it was the right thing to do because IMO for many years he was a wonderful star of the show, one of several. The key was that back then he was one of several diverse male stars, and that he was always a certain type of the character - wedded to the underworld and looked down upon by society. That all changed when Bob Guza and Brian Frons took full control, and that is what made Sonny what he is today. While RC and FV have dialed some of that back signficantly, have re-introduced a little more parity, they still make excuses for the character and the worst of them all is the way they play him half of the time right now as a mischievous romantic lead, when we all know he killed A.J. in cold blood.

 

replying in the Sonny thread.

[testardo]

I realize he thought Laura was dead, but she wasn't and so he had no reason to go off on her for staying alive. I remember him seeing her from the top of the stairs,and him calling her. But I also remember him being angry about nic. . Sonny was a fagin character when he first came on, Stone and other teens were runners for him, don't know what the good Don had them running, but he pushed drugs  on Karen and he pushed her into pole dancing. I have always hated him for that. Plus his putting hits on everyone who crossed him. Sonny is done for me. He could save the whole town and I would still FF him. The writers had him admit he killed AJ because he wanted to. No excuses. So I won't accept he didn't do it. As for me FrankenRon can watch the show themselves.

[Ambrosefolly]

Sonny can;t afford his medication.  He goes to the Metrocourt to beg Carly to give him another chance.  She makes fun of his lack of money, power, and his lack of "manhood" .  As Carly calls for security, Sonny begins throwing every piece of barware in the dinning room.  He then begins to confess all of his crimes.  The confession is recorded on the numerous cellphones of the diners in the restaurant.

I blame Carly above all above in the Sonny/Jason vs AJ feuds. Sonny would have continued to view AJ as some over indulged rich boy that got away with causing Jason's brain damage (it was a boon for him as it gave him a ruthless Stone replacement), but she fueled Sonny's class warfare prejudice in order to keep Michael from AJ. AJ lost everything and I truly believe the only time he was at peace was when he was in hiding. Eventhough she kept Michael from him and the rest of Qs, she had no problem using Michael's status as heir apparent to get all of the goodies associated with it and for the oddest reason managed to not only have Lorenzo Alcarez and Jax besotted with her. I hope the next Carly time sees Jax, he is with a beautiful supermodel (not Brenda, that was absurd) that turns out to be smarter and kinder than her, even better if she is pregnant with his child. 

[LegalParrot81]

Okay, I did it.  I binged watched Endgame this weekend and I've lived to tell about it.  It's still dreck, but compared to the stuff on screen last week, it's higher end dreck.

 

There were parts I'd forgotten about, that I actually enjoyed.  Hallucinating Luke was pretty good.  Laura ripping Felicia a new one was fabulous.

 

There were characters I miss and didn't realize how much until now, like Jax, Stefan, Roy (don't judge, I've loved A Martinez since he was in The Cowboys with John Wayne), Taggert, Mac, when he still had full use of his brain and Tony Jones, always, Tony Jones.  

 

I also miss the Spencer & Webber houses (damn you Guza & Phelps).

 

I loved that there were actual scenes that connected and made sense, not just a series of sound bytes and illogical scene jumps.

 

RKK was so much more evil.  He tried to give Stavros some nuance.  He wasn't all screamy and loud.

 

It was pretty clear that TG, SN and AM liked working together.

 

Jacob Young was horribly miscast as Lucky.  

 

Constance Tower still just radiates a regalness and class, even during the jail scenes without her makeup.

 

Felicia was a whiny, needy, leech.

 

Scott was still controlling and demanding where Laura was concerned.

 

Melissa was sticking her nose into everything, but not quite at Felicia levels.

 

Genie Francis simply makes Tony Geary better.

 

Most of all, it was an actual story, no matter how convoluted.  It had a beginning, it had a middle, it had an end.   I miss those.

 

Ultimately, I'd take Endgame over anything currently being shown on GH.  Anything.

Edited September 22, 2014 by LegalParrot81

[dubbel zout]

Jacob Young was horribly miscast as Lucky.

 

Ah, Shouty McYellerson. He was good for a lot of UCG, if nothing else.

[Melgaypet]

And the BroYay! The only thing that was even slightly enjoyable about Young and Stephen Coltin Cougar Mellencamp as recasts.

[Chairperson Meow]

I miss the JY blind items.

Literally the answer to every soap blind item was Jacob Young.

[GHScorpiosRule]

From the episode thread:

 

Bwah. You can be pissy and jealous and hurt, OK?!

 

Like I said in the episode thread, sure you can be all three, BUT, not if you're Patdick. Because when Robin had the chance to go to Africa, she and Patrick got into a fight over it, with him whining how she was putting her need to work with AIDS patients before him. or some such bullshit. Then, Robin decided to not go. I can't recall what changed his mind, but he got the tickets for her to go; or maybe all of them...but he insisted she go, so she did.

 

And then what does he do? Acts all out like Robin abandoned him and FUCKED Lisa at the very first chance he got. So no, he was just being pissy and jealous. And not at all hurt.

[HeatLifer]

If I remember correctly, I think Patty was pissed because Robin didn't tell him. She was like, "Oh, hi, I'm leaving! Bye!" But then Patty also made it about her trying to save the world and he and Emma weren't enough. Blah blah blah.

 

Then after the fight, Patty said he was going to go to Africa with her and he's not mad at her. Then Robin said she already withdrew from the program. But Patty said it was OK for her to go by herself.

 

Anyway, I'm not saying he wasn't pissed and jealous and angry about Stone. He was a child, yes. But I'd also say a part of him was hurt. Or maybe JT just sold that to me. We can agree to disagree!

[ulkis]

Cattitude, here is a link to the guy who carried a portrait around with him everywhere

 

 

(FF to 7 minutes to see him with the painting)

 

Ethan, Luke's son, became enamored of a portrait of Luke's ex-wife Laura - who is the mother of his half-siblings - and everyone said the painting looked just like Lulu too. So he was carrying around a picture that looked like his half-sister. Yes, Ethan was a creeper.

Edited September 25, 2014 by ulkis

[GHScorpiosRule]

ulkis, you forgot to let Cattitude know that the ORIGINAL painting was of Laura herself, meaning it was CLEARLY Genie Francis, which was then changed to look like Lulu, which, just no. Stop it.

[Cattitude]

Okay not only a creepy painting but a GIANT creepy painting. LOL

 

I have got to stop watching old clips with Dante in them, did DZ NEVER have a decent haircut before now?

[ulkis]

Okay not only a creepy painting but a GIANT creepy painting. LOL

 

I have got to stop watching old clips with Dante in them, did DZ NEVER have a decent haircut before now?

 

Yes. I just keep linking you to clips of mid 2011, lol. Here, have some nice haired Dante:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmiO6n53Zbc#t=44

[Cattitude]

Yes. I just keep linking you to clips of mid 2011, lol. Here, have some nice haired Dante:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmiO6n53Zbc#t=44

 

Thanks for the palate cleanse b/c MEOW hott Dante is better.

 

My question now is how old is Dante supposed to be. Since ER is 30ish I just thought they were around 30 but just two years ago Dante could have passed for 18?

[ulkis]

Thanks for the palate cleanse b/c MEOW hott Dante is better.

 

My question now is how old is Dante supposed to be. Since ER is 30ish I just thought they were around 30 but just two years ago Dante could have passed for 18?

 

Hee! He does look very young there, doesn't he? His looks fluctuate a lot. I think a couple of years ago, Dante was supposed to be about 25 when he came to town, which would make him 30 now, but I think we're supposed to think he's more DZ's age now (which is 35). Lulu's SORASed age is supposed to be about 26 now (she turned 18 in 2006). I think they are both supposed to be about early 30s now though.

[jsbt]

I still have no idea what Garin Wolf had in mind with that whole Woman in White story or Ewen Keenan.

[WendyCR72]

I still have no idea what Garin Wolf had in mind with that whole Woman in White story or Ewen Keenan.

 

Worse still, jsbt, I don't think Garin Wolf had a clue, either.

[ulkis]

Okay not only a creepy painting but a GIANT creepy painting. LOL

 

I have got to stop watching old clips with Dante in them, did DZ NEVER have a decent haircut before now?

 

the original was even larger than that! It was so big no way would Ethan have been able to carry it around.

 

 

well maybe he could have but it would have been even more ridiculous.

 

I still have no idea what Garin Wolf had in mind with that whole Woman in White story or Ewen Keenan.

 

 

I think it was all supposed to lead to another "Lulu goes crazy" story somehow, cause she and Lucky kept blathering on during that time about how she was more like Laura deep down and she was afraid that one day she would just snap. I know JMB auditioned the actors who tried out for Ewen, the audition script was something like Lulu in therapy and Ewen manipulating her. Of course maybe Lulu was just a cover for the storyline eventually being about Lady in White/Liz. I dunno though. I wouldn't've been surprised if Woman in White was really supposed to be Laura's daughter with [insert a Cassadine].

 

Whatever, it was all horrible (and the slowest storyline ever) and Nathan Parsons' lamenting its abrupt ending still makes me chuckle.

[Chairperson Meow]

I miss Ethan and Ewen.

Where's my brain?

[ulkis]

I miss Nathan Parsons, not Ethan. He was a good actor and they squandered him. Not that he always made the best acting decision (random chuckling anyone?) but they pretty much gave him flim-flam.

[LegalParrot81]

I miss Nathan Parsons, not Ethan. He was a good actor and they squandered him. Not that he always made the best acting decision (random chuckling anyone?) but they pretty much gave him flim-flam.

 

Honestly, they put Nathan Parsons behind the 8 ball by making him Luke and Holly's kid.  

[Chairperson Meow]

I could see him being Robert/Holly's kid.

Not everyone has to be a Spencer/Cassadine/Corinthos. Or hell, a Webber cousin?

[ulkis]

He shoulda been their kid. I don't know why Ron teased us with that when he first started writing. Annoying. Or Holly and the milkman's. Basically, anyone but Luke's. But I thought he and Robin would have made cute siblings 

[dubbel zout]

I think it was all supposed to lead to another "Lulu goes crazy" story somehow, cause she and Lucky kept blathering on during that time about how she was more like Laura deep down and she was afraid that one day she would just snap.

 

Ugh, that was so insulting and misogynistic. I'm so glad that whole story line got dumped.

 

Nathan Parsons' lamenting its abrupt ending still makes me chuckle.

 

I think that was the first story that was really his, so no wonder he was bummed it was cut short.

Edited September 26, 2014 by dubbel zout

[jsbt]

What astonished me is how they made Cassandra/the LIW so many things. Didn't she have, like, a photographic memory or something? She's brilliant but she can't remember her own name and she just lurks around this house! I didn't get it. Nor did I understand whether Ewen was supposed to be a Cassadine or what.

[Harmony233]

Ethan def should have been a Robert/Holly kid.

 

Instead of doing that silly Lulu/logan story because there fathers hated each other it should have been Ethan or Lucky with serena.I never got the fact Luke cared that much about being a father while scott adored serena and was overprotective when she was a kid can you imagine how bad it would have been if she hooked up with one of Luke's kids lol.

[LegalParrot81]

The Lady in White story was one of the first that Cartooni ditched as soon as they came on board.  She showed up in December, 2011 and was gone by February, 2012.  I can't say I was sad to see that story end.

 

I did enjoy the comedy of Nathan carrying around Laura's picture.  That was comedy gold.

Edited September 26, 2014 by LegalParrot81

[dubbel zout]

Nor did I understand whether Ewen was supposed to be a Cassadine or what.

 

I don't think Ewen was supposed to be a Cassadine. Didn't the Jacks family somehow make Ewen's dad lose all his money? Or take away the sheep farm or something? I know Ewen had a grudge against Jax and the rest of them for some reason. So of course most of his interaction was with Cassandra and Helena, with a bit of Liz  and LSD-hallucinating Olivia thrown in.

Edited September 26, 2014 by dubbel zout

[rur]

IIRC, a Jacks family member stole all or part of the Deadman's Hand from Ewen's dad.

[ulkis]

I don't think Ewen was supposed to be a Cassadine. Didn't the Jacks family somehow make Ewen's dad lose all his money? Or take away the sheep farm or something? I know Ewen had a grudge against Jax and the rest of them for some reason. So of course most of his interaction was with Cassandra and Helena, with a bit of Liz  and LSD-hallucinating Olivia thrown in.

 

I think he was supposed to be some sort of Cassadine under Garin Wolf - when he was still just a wandering pair of abs, he was reading a book (amid a blaze of candles, lest we all forget that!) with a sketch of the LuLaura picture in it, while sitting in a chair staring at the portrait. I think all the sheepfarmer crap was Ron's retcons.

[dubbel zout]

Oh, right, now I remember all of that, ulkis. How could I forget all the candles?

[ulkis]

They blinded you and you had a blackout? :)

[Tiger]

Wasn't GW going to make him Valentin?

[dubbel zout]

They blinded you and you had a blackout? :)

 

That, and his abs, I think. Hee.

Edited September 26, 2014 by dubbel zout