These Spoilers Suck: Bitter Speculation About SPN Spoilers

[MysteryGuest]

We can't really have it both ways, though.  If we want Dean (or Jensen) to be off by himself, basically a different character, then someone back with Team Free Will needs to take the lead.  Sam is the only logical choice.  When Sam and Dean are together, I don't usually feel that Dean is "leading" Sam.  I think they come up with a plan by committee, most of the time.  I don't see Sam leading Dean when he comes back, either.  I honestly think it's much ado about nothing.

[ILoveReading]

http://fangirlish.com/supernatural-sdcc-interview-eps-talk-season-14-the-future-of-the-winchesters/

It's too bad I have zero faith in the writers to pull any of this off with skill or finesse.  Because it sounds great on paper. 

Lol at Dabb saying Dean was stable.  He was grieving to the point where he didn't care if he lived or died last season.

LOL at Dabb saying they want to prove how important Dean is to Supernatural.  Someone's been hearing the rumblings. 

LOL that Mary will mourn.  Sure.  I've a big bridge in Brooklyn for sale too.

New Bobby and Charlie will morn.  Why would they?  They don't know Dean from a hole in the wall and they don't have any loyalty to him.   Michael destroyed their home and their world, and killed their loved ones.  Why would they want to save Dean rather than kill Michael unless the show is trying to pretend this is old Bobby and old Charlie.

In order to explore Dean's absence he actually needs to be gone for more than an episode or two.  Otherwise your not really exploring that.  You're skipping the show and just providing the tell and for a situation like that its not effective. 

If they want to show the impact of Dean being gone then "I miss Dean" doesn't work.  Little thing can be done to show he's missing.  Things like Sam wanting coffee and there being none because Dean always makes it.  Or wanting pancakes and there being none because Dean does the shopping or the bunker being messy becasue Dean does the cleaning.  Or needing a puzzle solved or wanting a symbols importance, since Dean is good at this, and not being able to find the info easily.  Show Sam struggling to lead.  (that does not mean he failed.  Its just means it might not be a strength, but I suspect the writers want this).

Just Sam having a beard does not equal Sam struggling without Dean, especially if things in the bunker are running like a well oiled machine with General Sam Winchester whipping everyone into shape, and teaching them to hunt  (massive eye roll) and speechifying the AU people to follow him and save Dean and them doing that.  Because that' is the opposite of showing Dean's needed.  Its showing that Sam can get along just fine without Dean and in fact thrives without him.

As for Dean coming back changed.  I hope it means more along the lines of s2.  Where he is like a man possessed and wanting to save people to make up for the ones he couldn't.  Not mopey depressed Dean who has to be saved by Sam in every ep because he froze . 

Edited August 4, 2018 by ILoveReading

[Reganne]

3 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

We can't really have it both ways, though.  If we want Dean (or Jensen) to be off by himself, basically a different character, then someone back with Team Free Will needs to take the lead.  Sam is the only logical choice.  When Sam and Dean are together, I don't usually feel that Dean is "leading" Sam.  I think they come up with a plan by committee, most of the time.  I don't see Sam leading Dean when he comes back, either.  I honestly think it's much ado about nothing.

I agree.  The story needs to have something for Sam to do while Dean is Michael.  It is logical that he would be somewhat of a leader in this scenario. Personally I think he has already been shown to struggle with leading in season 13 where he lead them through the vampire cave.  I suspect there will be some struggles along the way as well this season otherwise it wont be an interesting storyline.  I dont think the group is going to rush in and be able to save Dean right away.  And yes, I dont see Sam being the ultimate leader once Dean returns either.  It would be unnecessary.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

We can't really have it both ways, though.  If we want Dean (or Jensen) to be off by himself, basically a different character, then someone back with Team Free Will needs to take the lead.  Sam is the only logical choice.  

I actually agree that logistically you`d have to expect Sam to be leader - though why the AU folk had to be around to be his new army, I don`t really understand. That particular thing seems more done to give Sam a true hunter`s army and not have him be the leader among the core group of Cas, Jack and Mary. It was like that wasn`t good enough or prestigious enough. 

However, I also agree with ILoveReading in that if they want to show Dean as a missing factor, then there have to be real struggles depicted in his absence. If Sam, after a minor hickup, turns out to be leader extraordinaire then that hardly shows Dean is a valuable presence. 

In short this:

Quote

Just Sam having a beard does not equal Sam struggling without Dean, especially if things in the bunker are running like a well oiled machine with General Sam Winchester whipping everyone into shape, and teaching them to hunt  (massive eye roll) and speechifying the AU people to follow him and save Dean and them doing that.  Because that' is the opposite of showing Dean's needed.  Its showing that Sam can get along just fine without Dean and in fact thrives without him.

would truly show the opposite of Dean being needed in any way. 

Quote

I don't see Sam leading Dean when he comes back, either.  I honestly think it's much ado about nothing.

I`m wary about all the head writers/producers going on and on about the new leadership thing this Season and Dabb saying it is the conclusion of a longer running arc for Sam. It sounds like they want to alter the character and the dynamics that way. 

And depending on how Dean is being altered in the aftermath of Michael, he might just fall in line. It sounds like an experience that leaves him guilty (and probably with a lesson re: the Gadreel thing so some recriminations) and I could see that leading into weaker/freezing up/emo and all that stuff I really don`t want to see. Give me traumatized Dean like in Season 2, that was great and engaging.  

[ILoveReading]

The thing is the show itself what to have its cake and eat it to with this leader Sam stuff.

First, why is this AU army looking to Sam.  They've been living in a war zone probably their whole life.  They're trained fighters and they shouldn't;t need Sam to tell t how to hunt a vampire.  We've seen that there are vampires in the AW world and they were far more vicious then the vampires in our world so they should be a cake walk to the AW hunters.  If there were vampires it a natural conclusion that there are other monsters too.   Logistically it make far more sense to them to be looking to Bobby.  He was their leader/mentor in the AU world.

The AW hunters goals is the exact opposite of what Sam's is.  They want to stop Michael.  period.  They don't care if they kill the vessel.  Sam does.  So why would they follow Sam because they know that if it comes to letting Michael live and saving Dean that is what Sam will do.   It seems their primary purpose should be hunting Michael.  So why would they go on a random werewolf hunt becasue General Winchester told them too.   From Sam's POV, I can see it as a way to get the other hunters out of the way or distracted to give him greater odds of finding Dean first but again, why would they listen to Sam.  They aren't stupid and would see through that. 

The AU hunters only experience with Sam is that he got himself killed and lead Lucifer to their camp, and failed to stop Lucifer and Michael.  That's not exactly confidence inspiring.  It takes time to build respect.  It's pretty sad and pathetic writing that these hunters think Sam is the greatest because he showed them where the toilet is or explained what a stop light was or lectured them on things they should know already.

If Bobby doesn't have the answers for....reasons then the next person that would make more sense to turn to is Mary.   She's familiar enough with this world that she can tell them how Netflix works.   They're her people after all. (oops not so much Mary.  Guess she really is just a legend in her own mind)  She knows them far better than she knows her own sons. 

So the biggest question is why these hunters are turning to Sam in the first place when really they have no reason too..

It seems the show want to ignore all this.

When Dean comes back are they going the s2 route or the 12b route with Dean following meekly behind Sam?  I know where my money's at.

[MysteryGuest]

I just can't get upset about this.  They're going to look to Sam as their leader because this is Supernatural, and it's basically about Sam and Dean.  If Dean is out of the picture, then Sam is going to be the leader.  As for why people like Bobby, etc. would actually follow Sam and not lead, I can only assume it's because our world is still a bit foreign to them.  And they followed Sam and Dean here, so continuing to follow (I prefer to say work with) Sam now makes perfect sense to me.  Michael is their enemy #1, and right now, Michael has Dean.  

I say all of this having not read or watched any of the promo stuff.  I honestly don't like watching Dabb or Singer talk about the show.  I sometimes wonder if we're even watching the same show.  

[Aeryn13]

Quote

They're going to look to Sam as their leader because this is Supernatural, and it's basically about Sam and Dean.  If Dean is out of the picture, then Sam is going to be the leader.  As for why people like Bobby, etc. would actually follow Sam and not lead, I can only assume it's because our world is still a bit foreign to them. 

It would actually make far more sense - and still fulfill the quota of being a storyline for/about Sam - if the AU-folk were yet another complication for him to overcome. They are apparently stuck in this world which so far is not an apocalyptic wasteland. But now their Michael who they know as their most bitter enemy who turned their home into an apocalyptic wasteland is over here, and for all they know about to do the same thing. One of the people they just met has said yet to Michael and is now their host.

Their logical motivation would be "kill him with fire". And anyone who stands against that because of "but the vessel" would be a logical enemy. If that guy can explain toilet paper to them should be completely inconsequential next to that. 

The same way the hunters who didn`t sign up with the BMOL shouldn`t have looked at Sam like entranced little flunkies in Season 12 when he made that speech. "I was far more stupid than all of you, that means you should follow ME now". What?

Like I said, it make sense for Sam to be the leader of the core group, not the AU hunters. If they don`t want to follow Bobby, they could have Mary who has experience with this world. And if they don`t want that, they would still have Ketch, someone who has military experience, someone who spend a bit over them fighting with them and someone who knows this current world perfectly - and most importantly someone who would likely be on their side of "kill Michael at all costs, too bad for the vessel".    

I honestly think the AU hunters are just there so the writers can do a version of a rousing "the King in the North" scene with Sam, if it make sense or not in those particular circumstances.

Edited August 4, 2018 by Aeryn13

[ILoveReading]

26 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

And they followed Sam and Dean here, so continuing to follow (I prefer to say work with) Sam now makes perfect sense to me.  Michael is their enemy #1, and right now, Michael has Dean.  

They didn't really follow Sam and Dean.  They followed Bobby.  IIRC he was the one that made the speech about how they would cross over, re-group, read up on the lore, and then go back home and kill Michael.

The only difference is that now they don't have to cross back over to kill Michael. 

[ahrtee]

I'm completely lost with the AU hunter SL.  

First of all, since Bobby mentioned Trump as "the Apprentice guy" I assume they had bad reality TV up until a few years ago, which means that pretty much anyone over the age of 10 would know how to get around in a non-war zone (even if they're traumatized/have PTSD flashbacks.)  So no one should have to tell them about indoor plumbing or how to work a can opener (as an example...:) ) and anyone who tries to do so should come across as incredibly patronizing.   The only thing that would make sense is if Sam took all the BMoL toys when they destroyed their base and now someone has to train the newbies in their use.  Of course, that should be Ketch's job, as he's the one who knows the weapons and how to use them.    

Second, maybe I missed the setup in the AU (quite likely:  I tuned out of much of the eps set there.)  But I was under the impression that there were hunter cells/groups, and Bobby's group was just one.  And further, that the group was more like the Chataqua in The End 'verse:  that is, a few hunters protecting "a camp of twitchy trauma survivors" who were civilians...and that they were the majority of the people they brought through the rift.  Mary and Jack bonded with the kids in the group (were they all killed when Michael attacked?  I don't remember) but I don't think it was only hunters who escaped; so in theory, there shouldn't be more than a few "real" hunters in the AU group, hardly an army for Sam to lead.  (Of course, in All Along the Watchtower, Sam's army was only about a half-dozen hunters, so maybe that's all he needs to take on Michael and the angels.) *sigh*  Or maybe Sam's leadership role is more like End!Dean where he has to run the camp and provide enough toilet paper for all the survivors.  Get that man a Costco card!

I must have missed something.  I *hope* I missed something.  

[trxr4kids]

4 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I say all of this having not read or watched any of the promo stuff.  I honestly don't like watching Dabb or Singer talk about the show.  I sometimes wonder if we're even watching the same show.  

You should watch the SDCC panel near the end, it was hilarious. I'm paraphrasing but the question was something like, what do you think keeps SPN engaging and fresh after so many seasons, Brad seemed to think the characters have evolved and keep doing so and they've added to the family and that there's depth and layers, Eugenie blathered something about redemption, loyalty and betrayal, Dabb basically ass kissed about how great the actors were they could make anything great, Singer talked about how they're able to drag plots out because of character familiarity and development or words to that effect.

6 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I'm completely lost with the AU hunter SL.

Me too.

[catrox14]

6 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

It sounds like they want to alter the character and the dynamics that way. 

And depending on how Dean is being altered in the aftermath of Michael, he might j

I legitimately think they are going to kill Dean. I've thought that for a very long time.  If Sam becomes a leader, and then a father to Jack, and is applying lessons learned from Dean along the way, then Dean doesn't have a raison d'etre.  And frankly it can't be saving Sam anymore.  If they really want Sam to be the leader and the culmination of an arc for Sam that isn't Sam becoming Lucifer 2.0 or killing Cage!Michael, then it has to be Sam living on his own without Dean for the rest of his life.  He has to have come full circle to being a hunter and because he WANTS to do it and possibly as a tribute to Dean. 

[Myrelle]

15 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

http://fangirlish.com/supernatural-sdcc-interview-eps-talk-season-14-the-future-of-the-winchesters/

It's too bad I have zero faith in the writers to pull any of this off with skill or finesse.  Because it sounds great on paper. 

Lol at Dabb saying Dean was stable.  He was grieving to the point where he didn't care if he lived or died last season.

LOL at Dabb saying they want to prove how important Dean is to Supernatural.  Someone's been hearing the rumblings. 

LOL that Mary will mourn.  Sure.  I've a big bridge in Brooklyn for sale too.

New Bobby and Charlie will morn.  Why would they?  They don't know Dean from a hole in the wall and they don't have any loyalty to him.   Michael destroyed their home and their world, and killed their loved ones.  Why would they want to save Dean rather than kill Michael unless the show is trying to pretend this is old Bobby and old Charlie.

In order to explore Dean's absence he actually needs to be gone for more than an episode or two.  Otherwise your not really exploring that.  You're skipping the show and just providing the tell and for a situation like that its not effective. 

If they want to show the impact of Dean being gone then "I miss Dean" doesn't work.  Little thing can be done to show he's missing.  Things like Sam wanting coffee and there being none because Dean always makes it.  Or wanting pancakes and there being none because Dean does the shopping or the bunker being messy becasue Dean does the cleaning.  Or needing a puzzle solved or wanting a symbols importance, since Dean is good at this, and not being able to find the info easily.  Show Sam struggling to lead.  (that does not mean he failed.  Its just means it might not be a strength, but I suspect the writers want this).

Just Sam having a beard does not equal Sam struggling without Dean, especially if things in the bunker are running like a well oiled machine with General Sam Winchester whipping everyone into shape, and teaching them to hunt  (massive eye roll) and speechifying the AU people to follow him and save Dean and them doing that.  Because that' is the opposite of showing Dean's needed.  Its showing that Sam can get along just fine without Dean and in fact thrives without him.

As for Dean coming back changed.  I hope it means more along the lines of s2.  Where he is like a man possessed and wanting to save people to make up for the ones he couldn't.  Not mopey depressed Dean who has to be saved by Sam in every ep because he froze . 

 

I might be a glutton for punishment, but I read the article and listened to all of their blather and first, I'll say that IA with much of this post, but the bolded parts are the ones I'm going to address more specifically.

Dabb referred to Dean as the alpha male of the group-not the leader-and I really fear that that is the "change" we're going to get in Dean in order for Sam to be shown as fulfilling his leadership role that Dabb even states has been an on-going arc for Sam(and more than ever, since he took over as showrunner, IMO). So nothing in that bodes well for Dean coming back more like S2 Dean. No, I'm pretty sure that Dean is going to be "incapacitated" in some way and especially as far as hunts are concerned, so that Sam's leadership role will be allowed to continue and play out more.

On this show(especially of late) "incapacitating" Dean usually means making him depressed and emo to the point that his ability to function as a hunter is compromised-and the other characters are usually pretty quick to let us know this-so I'd bet the ranch that Dean's flashbacks as Mean are all going to be part and parcel of his depression from having been possessed by the archangel-which wouldn't be bad if his loved ones responses were more of sympathy, understanding, and compassion of his plight for once-and this even if he himself brings up the Gadreel nonsense(which I'm 99.99999...% sure will happen)-because Gadreel WAS instrumental(and even heroically so, IMO) in helping to save the world AND Sam's life. IOW, while it was a painful experience for the brothers, and for Sam especially, it was also a hard choice that Dean had to make as the only "leader" around at the time. And from all we've seen, it has been proven to have been the right decision, too-if not from a moral standpoint, but definitely from a storyboard, big picture standpoint. And again, Dean had to take the lead there even if the writers of this show have yet to acknowledge that fact in actual words of their own in interviews OR within any actual dialogues within the storytelling.

But it's never too late for that, writers, and here's your chance; but this would also involve Sam having to learn some "lessons"of his own concerning what it means to truly lead others-such as "Heavy is the head that wears the crown" and "It's lonely at the top."-especially when those you're trying to lead seem to want to fight you at every turn and even sometimes choose to completely ignore what their "leader" says or orders or wants or asks for of them, and they wind up going their own way, anyway and in spite of what their "leader" might want or demand or ask for from and of them. And especially, too, when said leader has to make unilateral choices/decisions that he  deems right at the time and that he knows will cause problems and even hurt others and that might even turn out or appear to be "wrong" later on-and to have erroneous ulterior motives assigned to those decisions/choices, too. A true leader has to learn that, at times, he may be reviled for his choices/decisions even while holding to those choices because they seemed right at the time; and this even from those he loves and cares for and is only trying with all his might to protect and safeguard as well as he can.

It should be this way with the AU hunters, especially, IMO-but somehow, and as others here have already stated, I also highly doubt that they'll go there with Sam's apparently on-going leadership role/arc.

Edited August 4, 2018 by Myrelle

[gonzosgirrl]

14 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I legitimately think they are going to kill Dean. I've thought that for a very long time. 

I don't know which one of us said it first, but I also believe this is end game, and have for a long time.

[catrox14]

5 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

As for why people like Bobby, etc. would actually follow Sam and not lead, I can only assume it's because our world is still a bit foreign to them.  And they followed Sam and Dean here, so continuing to follow (I prefer to say work with) Sam now makes perfect sense to me.  Michael is their enemy #1, and right now, Michael has Dean. 

Even if this world is foreign to them, they let Mary become a big deal in their world.  IMO the greatest challenge should be for them to even want to fight at all.  AU Bobby made a big speech about going back and saving everyone else and yet he was all happy to stay behind to fawn over Mary.   Some leader he is... LOL

I think it would be interesting if turns out that General Sam's problem with the AU characters is them NOT returning to the AU.  That he needs and wants them to go back and fight in the other world. Because even with Michael free and here, his minions are still in the AU and they seemed happy to be following his orders.  I don't think it was that he brow beat them all into submission but more that many angels were already of the mind that humans didn't matter. 

Why does Michael need to build an army in SPN land? Why didn't he bring them with him? There is still so much left unknown about why (other than Sam and Dean never being born) Michael and his minions did what they did.  Why did they turn on humans?  Was it Michael first who turned on them or underlings seeking power and he just tried to wrestle them into some order? Does he want to conquer all the universes? 

TPTB could really make a good story out of that but I zero faith they will.   

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't know which one of us said it first, but I also believe this is end game, and have for a long time.

I think we both came to that conclusion about the same time.  It's a sad conclusion but it really seems like the most likely trajectory for Dean now.  I just hope it's a heroic death.  I fear now that it will not be.  I will be wholly and happily surprised if Dean time as Michael's vessel maybe lets him figure out that maybe he really can take that vacation, with or without Sam and Cas and Jack.  What I don't want, which I also wonder now with Danneel being in the show, if somehow she becomes human and she and Dean ride off into the sunset.  I would be really unhappy and it would a cliche that wouldn't thrill me at all.

[trxr4kids]

5 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

So nothing in that bodes well for Dean coming back more like S2 Dean. No, I'm pretty sure that Dean is going to be "incapacitated" in some way and especially as far as hunts are concerned, so that Sam's leadership role will be allowed to continue and play out more.

I'm going to call it now, Dean will be left "a drooling mess" for reasons one of which fit nicely with this:

 

22 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I legitimately think they are going to kill Dean. I've thought that for a very long time. 

[catrox14]

Just now, trxr4kids said:

I'm going to call it now, Dean will be left "a drooling mess" for reasons one of which fit nicely with this:

 

Wouldn't it be something if AU Michael left him a "drooling mess"  or worse after Cage!Michael promised to never do that and maybe Cage!Michael is the one that saves Dean?  And the decision Sam must make is just like with Sam and Gadreel.  That Dean will have to be "tricked" into saying yes, with the promise that Cage!Michael saves Dean and maybe he goes back to Heaven to restore it?

I actually would be 100% okay with that. 

And then Dean is killed  by a red headed witch and Sam kills the red headed witch. 

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, trxr4kids said:

I'm going to call it now, Dean will be left "a drooling mess" for reasons one of which fit nicely with this:

 

15 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

No, I'm pretty sure that Dean is going to be "incapacitated" in some way and especially as far as hunts are concerned, so that Sam's leadership role will be allowed to continue and play out more.

Given Dabb's complete lack of original thinking penchant for repeating the brothers' storylines, I am thinking of Sam's S7 Hallucifer arc which culminated in him dying prettily in the psych ward before Cas took on his memories. If it happens, I'm betting Dean's breakdown won't be so heroic (and probably played for laughs most of the time).

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I legitimately think they are going to kill Dean. 

Not while the show is ongoing. They might want to but they won`t get the greenlight for it nor IMO actually even ask for the greenlight. In the Series Finale? Possibly. Which I personally wouldn`t even have a problem with if Dean went out in an epic way for something meaningful. He doesn`t have to save the planet but it should be a real hero`s death that leaves a lasting impact. 

Stefan in TVD went out to save his hometown and his friends, that was fine. It shows both a sacrifice for the personal as well as the greater good. Now if SPN wants to give the recent Originals Finale a run for their money, they will go with "codependent murder-suicide pacts among brothers are AWESOME". I could see that but I truly hope not. 

[trxr4kids]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I actually would be 100% okay with that. 

Why don't you write for the show? I know, it's cause I can't have nice things, lol!

 

4 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

If it happens, I'm betting Dean's breakdown won't be so heroic (and probably played for laughs most of the time).

I shudder to think.

[ahrtee]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

And then Dean is killed  by a red headed witch and Sam kills the red headed witch. 

Hmmm...how about if Rowena kills Michael/Dean (thus fulfilling the prophecy) but manages to "squirrel away" (pardon the expression) Dean's soul to be returned to his meatsuit after Michael's death?  (And Sam kills Rowena out of fury because he didn't know the plan, and has to have Cas? Jack? resurrect her in order to restore Dean)? 

[DeeDee79]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't know which one of us said it first, but I also believe this is end game, and have for a long time.

I hope that it doesn't end this way. I wouldn't be able to rewatch after the show ends if Dean's story ends with him being dead.

[BabySpinach]

3 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I hope that it doesn't end this way. I wouldn't be able to rewatch after the show ends if Dean's story ends with him being dead.

The show's final ending (in 2050 probably, lol) will heavily influence my impression of the entire show. If it ends in a shitty way, it'll color all of the seasons before it because they'll all lead to that bad ending. If it ends well, I'll be far more forgiving of the flaws in the writing and characters because I know it'll all work out in the end. 

And as much as I want the show to end sooner rather than later, I'm not sure what I'll do with myself when there's no more new Supernatural content to look forward to. Even if a season sucks, we're accustomed to the possibility that the next one might turn things around or at least have new things for us to like. But when it's over for good... what will we do?!

[devlin]

I feel like Mary doesn’t have the right to play the role of grieving mother after her treatment of dean ever since she returned. I would love to see ketch mourn Dean. In fact  I would love for when dean comes back and he sees that sam, jack, cas and Mary will have inevitably formed a tight little family, that he and ketch hit the road and fight monsters together 

[Res]

28 minutes ago, devlin said:

I feel like Mary doesn’t have the right to play the role of grieving mother after her treatment of dean ever since she returned. I would love to see ketch mourn Dean. In fact  I would love for when dean comes back and he sees that sam, jack, cas and Mary will have inevitably formed a tight little family, that he and ketch hit the road and fight monsters together 

I would love that!

[AwesomO4000]

14 hours ago, Myrelle said:

But it's never too late for that, writers, and here's your chance; but this would also involve Sam having to learn some "lessons"of his own concerning what it means to truly lead others-such as "Heavy is the head that wears the crown" and "It's lonely at the top."-especially when those you're trying to lead seem to want to fight you at every turn and even sometimes choose to completely ignore what their "leader" says or orders or wants or asks for of them, and they wind up going their own way, anyway and in spite of what their "leader" might want or demand or ask for from and of them.

Sam already did learn all of this more than once, but most notably in "All Hell Breaks Loose, Pt 1," so I don't see why he has to learn them all over again. But the chances of the new writers short-handing this by actually referring back to that episode are likely pretty slim.

14 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Wouldn't it be something if AU Michael left him a "drooling mess"  or worse after Cage!Michael promised to never do that and maybe Cage!Michael is the one that saves Dean?  And the decision Sam must make is just like with Sam and Gadreel.  That Dean will have to be "tricked" into saying yes, with the promise that Cage!Michael saves Dean and maybe he goes back to Heaven to restore it?

I can actually see this happening... however nothing bad better happen with Cage!Michael - like another apocalypse, because then I'll call foul. If Gadreel turned out to be crucial for saving the world, but Cage!Michael turns out to be an apocalypse-causing disaster, I'll be pissed.

[ILoveReading]

8 hours ago, devlin said:

I feel like Mary doesn’t have the right to play the role of grieving mother after her treatment of dean ever since she returned. I would love to see ketch mourn Dean. In fact  I would love for when dean comes back and he sees that sam, jack, cas and Mary will have inevitably formed a tight little family, that he and ketch hit the road and fight monsters together 

Now this would be a spin off I would watch.

[Aeryn13]

No idea if they plan to bring back Ketch in Season 14 but he is the one character where you could really explore someone who would IMO be on the side of "do everything necessary to kill Michael, no matter the cost" while at the same time really feeling badly on a personal level. 

Which other character would that work for? Sam and presumably Cas and Jack would prioritize saving Dean. The AU-folk have no connection whatsoever to Dean so they would logically prioritize killing Michael. Mary is a self-involved bitch who only prioritizes herself, which is apparently her new budding romance with Bobby. 

Rowena? She might feel a tad bit bad but she doesn`t have too much of a connection with Dean. With Ketch they have been building up something in Season 13 that would legitimately have the guy feeling bummed of killing Dean but still 100 % onboard with doing it. 

[ILoveReading]

51 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

No idea if they plan to bring back Ketch in Season 14 but he is the one character where you could really explore someone who would IMO be on the side of "do everything necessary to kill Michael, no matter the cost" while at the same time really feeling badly on a personal level. 

Which other character would that work for? Sam and presumably Cas and Jack would prioritize saving Dean. The AU-folk have no connection whatsoever to Dean so they would logically prioritize killing Michael. Mary is a self-involved bitch who only prioritizes herself, which is apparently her new budding romance with Bobby. 

Rowena? She might feel a tad bit bad but she doesn`t have too much of a connection with Dean. With Ketch they have been building up something in Season 13 that would legitimately have the guy feeling bummed of killing Dean but still 100 % onboard with doing it. 

This would be interesting to watch. 

I wish someone has asked about Ketch at comic con. 

[catrox14]

Quote

 

  1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Wow, there is a LOT* of gray. I'd say it was the filter, but he and Gen have about the same colour hair and I don't see it in hers. It does look shorter at the back to me and there is another pic in the blog that looks shorter overall, too.

 

 

If this is a recent pic why would Sam not bother to shave if he's both depressed and too busy but has time for a hair cut?  That seems incongruous to me. So, if Sam has cut his hair, I wonder if this is signaling Jared playing Cage!Michael.  Because at this point, that is the most likely option to beat Michael!Dean. 

[Casseiopeia]

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

 

If this is a recent pic why would Sam not bother to shave if he's both depressed and too busy but has time for a hair cut?  That seems incongruous to me. So, if Sam has cut his hair, I wonder if this is signaling Jared playing Cage!Michael.  Because at this point, that is the most likely option to beat Michael!Dean. 

They went camping last weekend.  They must have filmed E3 or 4 by now.  Maybe when Jared gets back to VC they will be on E5.  So that might mean that Dean is saved by E5?

So who else besides God or Cage/Michael could save Dean?  Death?  Like original Death?  I can't see them going Cage/Michael that would be a shark too far.

Edited August 7, 2018 by Casseiopeia

[ILoveReading]

25 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

They went camping last weekend.  They must have filmed E3 or 4 by now.  Maybe when Jared gets back to VC they will be on E5.  So that might mean that Dean is saved by E5?

So who else besides God or Cage/Michael could save Dean?  Death?  Like original Death?  I can't see them going Cage/Michael that would be a shark too far.

They're currently on Day 4 of episode 3.   If you have twitter you can follow Jason Fischer and track filming.  He lists the scenes being filmed that day too. 

My guess is that Kaia-Sue has something to do with saving Dean.  Maybe she allows Sam to dream walk through Dean's head.

Jody is in this episode too. 

[catrox14]

9 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

They're currently on Day 4 of episode 3.   If you have twitter you can follow Jason Fischer and track filming.  He lists the scenes being filmed that day too. 

My guess is that Kaia-Sue has something to do with saving Dean.  Maybe she allows Sam to dream walk through Dean's head.

Jody is in this episode too. 

I'm suddenly really worried that Michael!Dean goes after Jody!

[Casseiopeia]

18 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

They're currently on Day 4 of episode 3.   If you have twitter you can follow Jason Fischer and track filming.  He lists the scenes being filmed that day too. 

My guess is that Kaia-Sue has something to do with saving Dean.  Maybe she allows Sam to dream walk through Dean's head.

Jody is in this episode too. 

Oh no!  If WS saves Dean I might have to take a breather from SPN for awhile.  Thanks for the tip about Jason Fischer.

[catrox14]

36 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

Oh no!  If WS saves Dean I might have to take a breather from SPN for awhile.  Thanks for the tip about Jason Fischer.

If Michael!Dean seeks out Jody or Donna,  that perfectly sets up Kaia or some other WS to save Dean.  I swear to gods, if they don't give Sam or Cas the save that would be absurd.

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

Oh no!  If WS saves Dean I might have to take a breather from SPN for awhile.  Thanks for the tip about Jason Fischer.

I'll be out there breathing with you. But... didn't Kaia, you know, die? Wasn't it Dark Kaia who came through the rift? I sincerely hope she's just another COTW and Jody is there because it's where the rift is/was.

[catrox14]

12 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I'll be out there breathing with you. But... didn't Kaia, you know, die? Wasn't it Dark Kaia who came through the rift? I sincerely hope she's just another COTW and Jody is there because it's where the rift is/was.

Which is a whole other stupid thing.  Why didn't they just drive up to Sioux Falls and go through the Rift there? Jack could point them where to go.  .

Also, I wonder if Jody knows about AU!Bobby yet? 

[gonzosgirrl]

Maybe not a spoiler, but it still makes me bitter. Jason's QOTD - I would love to think it applies to Mean! but I'm 99.9% sure it refers to Mary and Not!Bobby. (Mobby?)

"The most beautiful stories always start with wreckage." - Jack London

Edited August 8, 2018 by gonzosgirrl
Left out a word. Ooops.

[Bobcatkitten]

I think we read too much into Jason's quotes. It's a crap ton of quotes every year and most of them are just cool and mean nothing at all to the show.

[Myrelle]

52 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Maybe not a spoiler, but it still makes me bitter. Jason's QOTD - I would love to think it applies to Mean! but I'm 99.9% sure it refers to Mary and Not!Bobby. (Mobby?)

"The most beautiful stories always with wreckage." - Jack London

Dollars to donuts it's the Lurve Story of Mobby. Or Bary? :-D

[Casseiopeia]

I didn't see this posted...but ugh!

https://www.tvguide.com/news/supernatural-season-14-wayward-sisters-return/

[ILoveReading]

7 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

I didn't see this posted...but ugh!

https://www.tvguide.com/news/supernatural-season-14-wayward-sisters-return/

The only reason Im disappointed Wayward didn't get picked up is that the show is going to waste several more episodes on them.

[Casseiopeia]

2 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

The only reason Im disappointed Wayward didn't get picked up is that the show is going to waste several more episodes on them.

Unlike with Bloodlines (that was never addressed again) this is Dabb's show now.  He is going to tell his tale dammit and we will like it!

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, Casseiopeia said:

Unlike with Bloodlines (that was never addressed again) this is Dabb's show now.  He is going to tell his tale dammit and we will like it!

I'm okay with Jody coming back (if she loses the attitude) and Donna, as long as they are supporting characters to the brothers and not the other way around. There are only 20 eps as it is - I want Supernatural, not Andrew's Angels.

[AwesomO4000]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I want Supernatural, not Andrew's Angels.

It shows where my head's at that when I first saw this, I thought of Andrew from Buffy imagining the slayerettes (from season 7) as his Charlie's Angels type gals (and thinking somehow that related to the Wayward Sisters - my brain is weird), and thinking "I agree, I definitely wouldn't want that."

I'll show myself out now ; ) ...

[Bobcatkitten]

Jody and Donna have been in various episodes and have worked seamlessly in the storyline. Having them around is cool. But enough of the rest. Move on. 

[Myrelle]

15 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

I didn't see this posted...but ugh!

https://www.tvguide.com/news/supernatural-season-14-wayward-sisters-return/

MTE. And I mean exactly. I read that article and all I could think was UGH! and Yuck. And then I looked at the 3 comments and one was UGH!-that one word and nothing else and another one was ZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzz...-which cracked me up. :-D

[Pondlass1]

 "all-woman demon-wrecking crew". Translation: a group of Mary Sues ludicrously empowered and lacking in any realism to be interesting.  They will probably save Dean and he'll have to thank them over and over again.

I'm still clinging to the Dean/Michael SL.  It's all I got left folks.

[gonzosgirrl]

Leave it to Dabb & Co to actually make me dislike the idea of an "all-woman demon-wrecking crew". I would love to see that on my tv, but damnit, that distinction has to be earned, not just magically endowed upon characters we already know. IMO this is not a step forward for empowerment, it's a joke.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Pondlass1 said:

I'm still clinging to the Dean/Michael SL.  It's all I got left folks.

The sad part for me, is that as long as Dean is in the show, I'll linger. I just enjoy Jensen's work too much to quit. But I won't be happy about it, that's for sure.  I probably need some therapy or something LOL