These Spoilers Suck: Bitter Speculation About SPN Spoilers

[juppschmitz]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And again I say, watching the episode gave me, a pretty fervent Dean fan/Dabb... not-fan, a different impression. Y'all really should watch, then be bitter. :)

Oh no, don't get me wrong, I HAVE watched the episode. I loved Michael, I loved Dean, I loved that the whole shebang was pretty much solely Dean-centric. I adored the Dean and Billie confrontation. (I really really love Billie and her and Dean's relationship.)

The thing is, this is how it SHOULD be. All the time. But it won't. Because Dabb needs to juggle 37 million balls at the same time and none of them are in any way interesting. Not even the other leads.

Even in this episode the writing was appalling. (Seriously, leader!Maggie? Seriously??? *massive eyeroll* - Why even go to all the trouble of getting the stupid spear when they could have just used a holy-oil-molly and super-archangel-catching handcuffs? *massive eyeroll* - Why send Cas along into Dean's noggin? That served NO purpose they could have been aware of beforehand. Yeah, just leave the disempowered little nephilim with the super baddie of the season, why not?? *massive eyeroll*)

The acting from pretty much anyone but JA was ridiculous. (How brilliant was Jensen's imitation of the "raised you from perdition" line? He acts rings around anyone else.)

The background music was atrocious.

In all, everything DEAN or MICHAEL was great, but everything else sucked. And I'm fully convinced that nothing is going to come of the book Billie gave Dean, nothing I'm going to enjoy, anyway. Like everything Dean-related, it was bait to keep us watching. How don't they realize that it just doesn't get any better than when Jensen gets 95% of the scrceen time in an given episode?

But this is just my opinion, feel free to disagree.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

The acting from pretty much anyone but JA was ridiculous. (How brilliant was Jensen's imitation of the "raised you from perdition" line? He acts rings around anyone else.)

Answering in the episode thread.

Edited January 18, 2019 by Aeryn13

[AwesomO4000]

38 minutes ago, juppschmitz said:

Why send Cas along into Dean's noggin? That served NO purpose they could have been aware of beforehand.

I disagree here. Castiel is an angel, knows how angels think, and has experience with his Michael. He is the one who can access people's thoughts - Sam can't do that - and travel around in people's brains (as he has done in dreams). If anyone was going to go into Dean's brain solo it would have been him, but Sam had his own role to play in that he would have the best chance of getting Dean to listen / rallying Dean / etc.

I haven't watched the episode a second time, but if I'm remembering correctly Sam hooked himself up to Dean and Castiel put a hand on his shoulder, so presumably (I could be wrong), Castiel could have "disconnected" if need be and if it was safe to do so (as in Sam and/or Dean wasn't getting killed). If that was the case, then that was a good plan.

44 minutes ago, juppschmitz said:

The thing is, this is how it SHOULD be. All the time. But it won't. Because Dabb needs to juggle 37 million balls at the same time and none of them are in any way interesting. Not even the other leads.

In general the show has seldom ever stayed with the "A" plot the entire time, especially if the A plot is a season long thing. For me the glimpses make sense, and I'm perfectly happy to have a little at a time, so I'm pleasantly surprised and don't get burned out.

[gonzosgirrl]

18 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I disagree here. Castiel is an angel, knows how angels think, and has experience with his Michael. He is the one who can access people's thoughts - Sam can't do that - and travel around in people's brains (as he has done in dreams). If anyone was going to go into Dean's brain solo it would have been him, but Sam had his own role to play in that he would have the best chance of getting Dean to listen / rallying Dean / etc.

I haven't watched the episode a second time, but if I'm remembering correctly Sam hooked himself up to Dean and Castiel put a hand on his shoulder, so presumably (I could be wrong), Castiel could have "disconnected" if need be and if it was safe to do so (as in Sam and/or Dean wasn't getting killed). If that was the case, then that was a good plan.

In general the show has seldom ever stayed with the "A" plot the entire time, especially if the A plot is a season long thing. For me the glimpses make sense, and I'm perfectly happy to have a little at a time, so I'm pleasantly surprised and don't get burned out.

I agree. (Don't fall down!!) Even if it didn't strictly *need* to be both of them, I'm glad it was. Team Free Will, with the 2.0 sitting watch on the outside. To me it seemed like both of them, but Sam especially, knew this was an all or nothing, hail Mary. If they failed, it wasn't really going to matter what was going on outside or inside - they were all fucked. So I liked them both going after their brother/bff. This is the first time in a long time, probably since 10x23, that I really believed in Sam's love for his brother.

Sadly, I also don't believe I'll be feeling this way after next week, but damn, I'm gonna bask in this until then.

[AwesomO4000]

9 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I agree. (Don't fall down!!) Even if it didn't strictly *need* to be both of them, I'm glad it was. Team Free Will, with the 2.0 sitting watch on the outside. To me it seemed like both of them, but Sam especially, knew this was an all or nothing, hail Mary. If they failed, it wasn't really going to matter what was going on outside or inside - they were all fucked. So I liked them both going after their brother/bff.

Hee!

And I agree with all of this... Except the last part I didn't quote, but hey we don't want to start any apocalypses or anything do we? ; )

(I gotta believe in Sam's love for Dean in 11.23*** (or otherwise Sam's almost tears are just silly) and "Regarding Dean" - I love that episode.)

*** And "Baby" and "Safe House" and even his prayer to God in 11.1 - I really liked season 11.

Edited January 19, 2019 by AwesomO4000
Damn typos.

[Wateroflife]

@Lastcall. Just some theory comparison fun (we'll probably all be wrong). I was thinking the book says Dean has to make a new cage and put himself into it (hence the welding). But all that Nick footage makes me think Lucifer will be back. So Lucifer can stab Michael with an archangel blade (which we know won't kill Dean) and then they can shove Lucifer into Dean's cage. No more archangels and (surprise twist!) Dean doesn't actually have to die even though the show will doubtless spend episodes selling that as the endgame. I REALLY hope they don't go this route though (talk about reliving the S4/S5 Dean bait and switch all over again). But it would return the show to their beloved status quo and could potentially tie into a Lucifer/redemption arc the writers seem to want. Not sure how Sam would fit into this arc though...so fingers crossed I am wrong.

Edited January 18, 2019 by Wateroflife
Ugh, spelling

[Lastcall]

22 minutes ago, Wateroflife said:

@Lastcall. Just some theory comparison fun (we'll probably all be wrong). I was thinking the book says Dean has to make a new cage and put himself into it (hence the welding). But all that Nick footage makes me think Lucifer will be back. So Lucifer can stab Michael with an archangel blade (which we know won't kill Dean) and then they can shove Lucifer into Dean's cage. No more archangels and (surprise twist!) Dean doesn't actually have to die even though the show will doubtless spend episodes selling that as the endgame. I REALLY hope they don't go this route though (talk about reliving the S4/S5 Dean bait and switch all over again). But it would return the show to their beloved status quo and could potentially tie into a Lucifer/redemption arc the writers seem to want. Not sure how Sam would fit into this arc though...so fingers crossed I am wrong.

I would prefer the cage and I think most agree that Lucifer is coming back. They have set up that hosts can survive a stabbing so next episode could end with Lucifer stabbing dean and killing Michael which leaves Dean in a bad physical state come episode 12. Going with the spoilers and previews, it seems like Dean has made peace with what is in the book.  It appears that book is how Dean dies and I would assume that includes Michael. He has acted weird before in season 3 when he knew he was going to die and also in 5 when he decided to be Michaels vessel. I also think there is a good chance the Michael plot will be over by the end of Episode 12.

[AwesomO4000]

That would cover everything, but it just seems, I don't know, too easy somehow? And how is Dean going to make a cage like the one in hell that can contained Lucifer? The only "person" who figured out how to do that, or at least how the cage works and had some access to it, is Crowley, and he's dead. Also unless it is the cage in hell, Lucifer figured out how to change the polarity - or whatever that was - on the chains that Crowley had on him, so presumably that kind of cage isn't going to work anymore unless it's the real one in hell... which now may not even work anymore on Lucifer if the reversing the polarity thing works on that one also.

Speaking of which, does Dean still have the other rings... and will he have to ask New Death for hers - if she has one - or did the ring go "poof" with the last Death?

I don't know. I think there are too many loose ends on that kind of plan, and why would that one be the only one that works when I can even poke a bunch of holes in it as to how it can go wrong and/or the logistics don't seem to work. And why would they even think of raising Lucifer - I mean I know why Nick would - when they could instead raise Gabriel or even let other Michael out of the cage first. That should be their first and second thought before trying to get Lucifer to play ball. So even if Nick decides to raise Lucifer - how I have no idea - why wouldn't there be a scenario in those million other scenarios where they wake up Gabriel instead.

I'm going to be skeptical if it's that easy.

[Myrelle]

11 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

While I would never say never with this show and I`m certainly not extending any faith, I do believe they have created this current situation TO be lazy with Michael till the Season Finale. If Dean was possesed with Michael in control, we`d get the endless excuses on why this can`t happen for longer than an episode. Bla bla, brothers together, bla bla standalones bla bla. 

This gives them that. Michael is in play but no need to recast him or work in awkward side-notes into episodes what he is up to. Everyone knows where he is and why currently he isn`t wreaking havoc out there. The monsters have gone to ground for the time being. Btw, I wonder if anyone checked on Garth. Is he still homicidal?  

So every writer can do whatever they want and either ignore it completely or put in a little something how Dean is bothered by the banging in his head. If a writer is thus inclined, they can do more with it and use it for angst. As I think episode 12 will do. Maybe Michael makes such a ruckus in Dean`s head, it slowly drives him crazy. Like having a supe-tinnitus.

Sam`s "unimaginable choice" is certainly something to do to "deal" with Dean, at Dean`s behest, going by the  promo.

The episode 13 summary for Lebanon says that "to deal with their current problem, they are checking ancient occult lore". What is their current problem? Michael inside the Dean-cage. I think episode 13 will be a "reprieve" like Dean being turned into a boy was a reprieve from the MOC but at the end of the episode, he is right back with his 99 Michael-shaped problems.

I'm just so relieved that Michael!Dean is still with us going forward after this week's episode, but I'm still nervous that it's going to take the dreaded bait and switch turn again. The next hurdle to get over in that regard and IMO will be episode 12 and yes, that's because of Sam's "unimaginable choice"-after that is when their "current problem" will be more current and I really hope that by then it will still be Michael inside the Dean-cage.

IA that the bolded part here makes all the sense in the world, especially with the present set of writers, but the aforementioned fear runs deep in the Dean fandom at this point in the series and as such, I will feel much better after 12 is over and Dean is still keeping Michael at bay behind that door.

This almost feels like a rehash/parallel of the wall in Sam's head and the Lucifer storyline to me, but then again, they could also be going for a reversal of Dean's early series I might have to kill my brother storyline, too, and Dabb has been pushing Sam becoming very Dean-like for some time now, IMO, so who knows.

AFAIC, episode 12 is the next one to fear as the possible end of the Michael!Dean storyline, but I will say that Dean still housing Michael would better explain Dean's lack of anger over/with John upon John's return and his secret desire for closure with his father(before he dies) that apparently brings it on. 

So in a nutshell, I'll feel much better about the rest of the season if Dean is still carrying the central role in the myth-arc (AKA still housing Michael) after episode 12.   

[Aeryn13]

3 hours ago, Myrelle said:

I'm just so relieved that Michael!Dean is still with us going forward after this week's episode, but I'm still nervous that it's going to take the dreaded bait and switch turn again. The next hurdle to get over in that regard and IMO will be episode 12 and yes, that's because of Sam's "unimaginable choice"-after that is when their "current problem" will be more current and I really hope that by then it will still be Michael inside the Dean-cage.

IA that the bolded part here makes all the sense in the world, especially with the present set of writers, but the aforementioned fear runs deep in the Dean fandom at this point in the series and as such, I will feel much better after 12 is over and Dean is still keeping Michael at bay behind that door.

This almost feels like a rehash/parallel of the wall in Sam's head and the Lucifer storyline to me, but then again, they could also be going for a reversal of Dean's early series I might have to kill my brother storyline, too, and Dabb has been pushing Sam becoming very Dean-like for some time now, IMO, so who knows.

AFAIC, episode 12 is the next one to fear as the possible end of the Michael!Dean storyline, but I will say that Dean still housing Michael would better explain Dean's lack of anger over/with John upon John's return and his secret desire for closure with his father(before he dies) that apparently brings it on. 

So in a nutshell, I'll feel much better about the rest of the season if Dean is still carrying the central role in the myth-arc (AKA still housing Michael) after episode 12.   

The unimaginable choice is in the next episode already. Ep 12 is the one with/about Donatello/prophets. Which seems a bit random.

[ILoveReading]

Hopefully, what's written in the book isn't another Mark of Cain scenario.   Nothing about Death's directive to kill Sam made sense.  So I hope its not something lame like, stop Sam from saying yes to Lucifer by killing him or putting him back in the cage so there is never a fight with Michael and Lucifer.  This is the exact scenario I can see Dabb coming up with, even if it makes no sense what so ever. 

[trudysmom]

14 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Speaking of which, does Dean still have the other rings... and will he have to ask New Death for hers - if she has one - or did the ring go "poof" with the last Death?

Billie has the ring, I think.  In Advanced Thanatology  when she appeared to Dean at the top of the stairs, they zoomed in on her hand, wearing a ring.  I assumed it was Death's ring, thus the emphasis on it.  The rest of the rings, no clue if they still have them or if they went down in the pit when it opened and Sam and Jake fell in at the end of season 5.  I just hope and pray they aren't going full on canon and revisiting the whole Sam/Lucifer vs. Dean/Michael showdown.  I'm probably in the minority but I don't want that, at all.  

[catrox14]

27 minutes ago, trudysmom said:

as Death's ring, thus the emphasis on it.  The rest of the rings, no clue if they still have them or if they went down in the pit when it opened and Sam and Jake fell in at the end of season 5.  I just hope and pray they aren't going full on canon and revisiting the whole Sam/Lucifer

Dean picked them up from the ground after the portal closed.

[ILoveReading]

I'm dreading the ep written by Dabb's assistant.

Here live tweeting of episodes, reads like a 12 year old on Tumblr.

[Myrelle]

4 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

The unimaginable choice is in the next episode already. Ep 12 is the one with/about Donatello/prophets. Which seems a bit random.

Ah, I mixed them up then.

So it looks like we might know if he'll still be housing Michael or not after ep 11.

I'm dreading a "deal" of some sort that would transfer Dean's "burden" fully to Sam-not sure how they would pull that off, but if they want it, they'll make it happen and nothing like silly canon would stand in their way, so I'm going to hope that the choice is just the one that has Sam killing Dean as the one way to possibly prevent Michael from burning down the world-and the book might not even mention why that would be so since those books just seem to be descriptors of the deaths, themselves, and, in Dean's case at least, what happens afterwards where it pertains to him keeping Michael locked down.

Now if we knew the full descriptor of the death that Billie handed him that might help-and maybe that's what we'll get in this next episode. From the promo, it even seems like Dean might say what it is in this next one, and death via Sam's hand could be it. It would be vague, yes, but it would also explain Dean's expressions and Sam's "unimaginable" choice, but still leave room for them to find another solution or variation of it, as the season goes on.

Edited January 19, 2019 by Myrelle

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I'm dreading a "deal" of some sort that would transfer Dean's "burden" fully to Sam-not sure how they would pull that off, but if they want it, they'll make it happen and nothing like silly canon would stand in their way

I think they want to keep Michael shelved for the moment and that when he "gets out", they want it to be some big deal. Transferring him from mind-prison to mind-prison would water that down already. 

The promo with the rattling door didn`t have a big moment where the door finally breaks but I do believe that will happen down the line. The screwdriver will give way and Michael will step out. The twist is probably gonna be that Dean voluntarily lets that happen because they have either come up with some cockamamie plan or because it`s suddenly the less bad alternative. 

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Dean picked them up from the ground after the portal closed.

Yep. So if Billie has the same ring, it's just another Magic Egg - the writers have no show bible and it's pretty obvious they don't watch the show, so they have no clue about canon.

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

I'm dreading the ep written by Dabb's assistant.

Here live tweeting of episodes, reads like a 12 year old on Tumblr.

Oh dear Chuck, is that who that is? Urgh. She is Dabb's disciple; the prospect of her writing an actual episode is scary.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, PinkChicken said:

Billies ring is a different shape, same as the fancy new scyth. New job new gear. They never said as much but they could swing it that the old ring disappeared on the old Death's death, and that her's appeared when she was 'promoted'. Not that I expect them to think that hard about it

Thanks! Yeah, if it's a different ring - Death's was a plain whitish square I think? - then at least it isn't another canon fail.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

She is Dabb's disciple; the prospect of her writing an actual episode is scary.

At least she is doing it with Yockey. Maybe he can, I don`t know, break her fingers and write it himself. 

Edited January 19, 2019 by Aeryn13

[gonzosgirrl]

8 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

At least she is doing it with Yockey. Maybe he can, I don`t know, break her fingers and write it himself. 

 

8 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

At least she is doing it with Yockey. Maybe he can, I don`t know, break her fingers and write it himself. 

Here's hoping she doesn't bring any koolaid to the writing room.

[catrox14]

IMO the Canon fail about the rings happened with Ben Edlund. Dean picked them up after to portal closed at the end of Swan song. At that point  they were fused together. Death's ring made a reappearance in Appointment in Sammara when he told Dean to be home for a day. Dean gave it back. I don't recollect that the whereabouts of the original 4 rings has been broached since Swan Song.

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

IMO the Canon fail about the rings happened with Ben Edlund. Dean picked them up after to portal closed at the end of Swan song. At that point  they were fused together. Death's ring made a reappearance in Appointment in Sammara when he told Dean to be home for a day. Dean gave it back. I don't recollect that the whereabouts of the original 4 rings has been broached since Swan Song.

I don't think there was canon fail there. Death told Dean (during Dean's "death" to go talk to him) that he knew that Dean had the ring and where he had it hidden. The rings defuse easily, apparently, if you know how. Dean was playing with them, getting them to fuse and defuse at the end of "Two Minutes to Midnight," so I'm assuming that Dean defused them before putting it on to play Death.

So presumably Dean has the rest of the rings somewhere, too, and so theoretically they would potentially still be in play if they wanted to go that route and ask Billie for hers... but hopefully they won't. Besides then they'd have to address the Adam-shaped elephant in the cage room, and I think that they are fairly happy to continue ignoring than one.

[catrox14]

3 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

you know how. Dean was playing with them, getting them to fuse and defuse at the end of "Two Minutes to Midnight," so I'm assuming that Dean defused them before putting it on to play Death

I happened to watch this episode again recently (don't ask LOL) and when the portal closed the rings glowed as if melting together and Dean picked up the whole thing. That's the last time they were seen.

I can't imagine after so many years, that Dean would have kept their location quiet especially if  he could have found a way to use them to get Sam out of the Cage or put Lucifer back in s11 and s12.  Or get Michael out to help in s11.  That said, it is amusing to imagine all the places and what he did to hide them even from himself, if that is the case.

[Lemuria]

That’s  not the last time they were seen. Or, perhaps, I should say that’s not the last time that Death’s ring was seen. Dean brought the ring with him and gave it back to Death when he asked Death to save Sam’s soul. And Death then gave the ring to Dean to be Death for a day, so as to teach Dean a lesson. 

 I always thought I gave the lie to the belief that Dean would do anything to save Sam that, for the year between season five and season six, Dean researched to try to find a way to rescue Sam but he never  tried to use, as Thanos said to Doctor Strange about the Time Stone, his “greatest weapon,“ that is, the rings. Even to rescue Sam, Dean would not re-open the cage and risk releasing Lucifer again. 

[gonzosgirrl]

I can't remember: Does Sam know about the books?

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I can't remember: Does Sam know about the books?

About Dean researching? Yes he does. I don't remember exactly when he told Sam, but he did.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

About Dean researching? Yes he does. I don't remember exactly when he told Sam, but he did.

No, I meant Death's library.

1 hour ago, PinkChicken said:

Death's books?

I also can't remember when Dean told him or in what detail, it might have been a 1/2 conversation that's safe to say was off screen. But he knows enough that we didn't question it in the ep when Billie tells him he's going to kill Rowena?

 

Do you think someone can even see another persons book irl, like how you can only see your own reaper? Its probably a toss up on how honest they are or whether someone just happens across Deans book, but I think it'd also work if only Dean can see it at all.

I know Dean didn't tell him at the end of Advanced Thanatology, but I can't remember if it was discussed when he found out about the Rowena thing. I don't know when else it would have been. So yeah, if he 'knows' next week, then it would have to be a conversation that took place off screen.

[ILoveReading]

this clears up whether Lucifer will be back. 

[Aeryn13]

While Lucifer will undoubtedly be back, going by that braindead twitter, I can easily how there is no distinction between placeholder!Nick and yawn!Lucifer. 

[gonzosgirrl]

24 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

this clears up whether Lucifer will be back. 

As @Aeryn13 said, it doesn't necessarily signal Lucifer to me. It does however signal just how little she and her boss think of the Michael!Dean/Dean story. #truejoy #fuckyou

[ILoveReading]

3 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

As @Aeryn13 said, it doesn't necessarily signal Lucifer to me. It does however signal just how little she and her boss think of the Michael!Dean/Dean story. #truejoy #fuckyou

  I'm sure once Lucifer is back the focus will mostly be on him and Sam.  That's why I didn't get excited or watch the last ep.  It feels like a place holder.

They love bait and switch.

Edited January 20, 2019 by ILoveReading

[Aeryn13]

Quote

  I'm sure once Lucifer is back the focus will mostly be on him and Sam. 

Could be. But in Season 13 Lucifer`s interest in Sam was only in regards to having someone to whine about. And that guy isn`t picky about that. He was mostly interested in Jack.

If he came back now, he would probably go right back to whining about his lot in life. And if he learned about Michael/Michael`s plan, that would make him whine even harder because HE is the one with the daddy issues and whatnot. The character is a one-trick pony. I know Bucklemming want some redemption storyline but he has had narrative chances. Lucifer is like Mary, way too self-involved so his interest never lingers long enough on anything, not even redemption avenues. He loses interest too quickly, like a bored child. 

Right now, I`m undecided if they want to go towards a replay of Michael vs. Lucifer. Lots of people seem to think so but I believe they tried that (badly) in the Season 13 Finale. I don`t think Sam would say "yes" again and even having a Michael!Dean vs. Lucifer!Sam rematch would seem redundant at this point. 

Just as I think most speculation right now on what the book says is probably wrong. It won`t be about killing Sam because it`s Dean`s death book. All the others, where Michael escapes and uses Dean to burn down the world, already include, obviously, killing Sam. This book is how he dies another way. Now it might very well be that Sam somehow kills him though I doubt it`s as straigthforward as killing Dean because then Michael would just be free.

I guess I had a different reaction to Dean`s reaction to the book in the episode. He wasn`t immediately tearful or yelled "no" or did any over-the-top things. He was clearly thrown and it clearly wasn`t pleasant but to me his reaction said more "this is insane". 

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

He was clearly thrown and it clearly wasn`t pleasant but to me his reaction said more "this is insane". 

I agree with this. He looked flummoxed. 

[trudysmom]

Maybe he read that he'll die at a very old age of natural causes.  He and Sam and Cas (and ok, BabyNougat) find a way to cage Michael, again, maybe he can share our Michael's cage.  They re-write the lore on how to handle all the new monsters Michael created and they live out their lives as Men of Letters, training new hunters.  Since this is the bitterness thread, I'll toss in a bit of Bobby/Mary conflict for good measure.

Sorry, don't mean to be a flailing fangirl, I just want happy endings.  Realistically, I know that isn't likely to happen, but I can hope!

[ILoveReading]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

Right now, I`m undecided if they want to go towards a replay of Michael vs. Lucifer. Lots of people seem to think so but I believe they tried that (badly) in the Season 13 Finale. I don`t think Sam would say "yes" again and even having a Michael!Dean vs. Lucifer!Sam rematch would seem redundant at this point. 

I really hope they don't go here again.  Because after the marionette fight I woudln't believe a fight between them would destroy a room, let alone the world.

I also home its not Michael vs Michael because im sure that would mean that Sam says yes and that it the main thing I don't want to happen, also its just sets up the exact same problem for next season, with changing one Michael for another or its ends up a redux of Swan Song. 

I'd like to see something like Eve or Zacheriah.  An out of the box solution to ending, trapping Michael doesnt' involve either brother jumping into the cage or being possessed.   There is a reason those two are my favorite Dean kills, becasue it represents Dean in a nut shell.

This is why my favorite spec is that the book is blank and Dean has to write his own ending.  Its how he's operated his whole life, bucking destiny and rewritting the rules. 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I also home its not Michael vs Michael because im sure that would mean that Sam says yes and that it the main thing I don't want to happen, also its just sets up the exact same problem for next season, with changing one Michael for another or its ends up a redux of Swan Song. 

I still believe they will somehow put Michael to rest this Season and go for Cas-in-the-Empty and Dark-Nougat next year. 

Something I find hilarious is how Singer? Dabb? Bucklemming? said (once again) that this Season is more small-scale and intimate. Which they had to say about last Season, too. And it ended with AU!Michael coming to this Earth to enslave it, then Lucifer getting an upgrade and wanting to kill everything and now this Season we have a million and one books on how Michael burns down the world. 

It might not be presented as all that suspenseful but it is still teasing world-ending here. What the fuck about that is "small-scale"? *headdesk*   

I kinda wish they would put all apocalypse big-wig things to rest and just do a final Season where they go on little hunts. Just to fuck with everyone. Obviously, you`d have to keep Bucklemming bound and gagged in a closet somewhere for this to happen. 

[BabySpinach]

6 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I still believe they will somehow put Michael to rest this Season and go for Cas-in-the-Empty and Dark-Nougat next year. 

Something I find hilarious is how Singer? Dabb? Bucklemming? said (once again) that this Season is more small-scale and intimate. Which they had to say about last Season, too. And it ended with AU!Michael coming to this Earth to enslave it, then Lucifer getting an upgrade and wanting to kill everything and now this Season we have a million and one books on how Michael burns down the world. 

It might not be presented as all that suspenseful but it is still teasing world-ending here. What the fuck about that is "small-scale"? *headdesk*   

I kinda wish they would put all apocalypse big-wig things to rest and just do a final Season where they go on little hunts. Just to fuck with everyone. Obviously, you`d have to keep Bucklemming bound and gagged in a closet somewhere for this to happen. 

I think maybe it's more about how the story is framed rather than what it is on paper? Sure, Michael is a world-ending threat, but the real investment lies in his inner battle with Dean for control of the perfect vessel he feels he is entitled to. We didn't see any of the supposed massacre in Kansas City, and we're not supposed to really care about the super monster army or the end of the world on their own (aside from Michael's genuinely compelling motivation).

Dean's deeply personal struggle is the anchor for the viewers' interest. Next episode seems to be focusing on that as well. Who knows if they'll screw it up (they probably will), but the story is on the right track at the moment and maintaining good narrative tension on a micro character level. This all should have come much earlier in the season and replaced the floundering and angsting over Jack's unnecessary illness plot, but I'll take what I can get. 

Honestly, I don't think I'd be satisfied with a season of self-contained hunts and no mytharc whatsoever. Even season 1 had a larger-scale story going on in the background, despite its high percentage of standalones, which helped to maintain the season's momentum and intrigue. That might just be my personal preference for serialized storytelling over procedural storytelling, though. I do love long-term story progressions and thematically satisfying endings.

Edited January 21, 2019 by BabySpinach

[ILoveReading]

I'm stating to think the reason Mary is going to be "bonding" with Dean is because Sam asked her too see if she could figure out what was going on with Dean.  Either that or Dean goes to her to build whatever it he's building.

I certainly don't see this being initiated by Mary.

[PAForrest]

11 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I'm stating to think the reason Mary is going to be "bonding" with Dean is because Sam asked her too see if she could figure out what was going on with Dean.  Either that or Dean goes to her to build whatever it he's building.

I certainly don't see this being initiated by Mary.

The previews don't seem to indicate that she reaches out to Dean, because this is Mary, so of course she wouldn't. It looks like Dean just shows up to get away from the bunker and do whatever it is he has in mind in the more remote location of Donna's cabin. And that should have jack shit to do with Mary other than she's there, and that's what I'm hoping. It's already been hammered into us over and over that Mary has zero feelings for Dean, so I'm hoping Dean going to the cabin has nothing to do with her either, and that it's being at the cabin he's mostly interested in for some reason specific to his needs.

Edited January 21, 2019 by PAForrest

[Myrelle]

22 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

He wasn`t immediately tearful or yelled "no" or did any over-the-top things. He was clearly thrown and it clearly wasn`t pleasant but to me his reaction said more "this is insane". 

IA with this, and I'm pretty sure that we're going to find out what's written in the book this week.

[Res]

4 hours ago, PAForrest said:

The previews don't seem to indicate that she reaches out to Dean, because this is Mary, so of course she wouldn't. It looks like Dean just shows up to get away from the bunker and do whatever it is he has in mind in the more remote location of Donna's cabin. And that should have jack shit to do with Mary other than she's there, and that's what I'm hoping. It's already been hammered into us over and over that Mary has zero feelings for Dean, so I'm hoping Dean going to the cabin has nothing to do with her either, and that it's being at the cabin he's mostly interested in for some reason specific to his needs.

I would have rather him drive to Rufus's cabin but they have to give the Ice Queen something to do, right?

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, Myrelle said:

IA with this, and I'm pretty sure that we're going to find out what's written in the book this week.

It occurs to me that Michael said to Dean, "Even if you could force me out, what do you think I'd leave behind? You'd be nothing but blood and bone."

Could that be what the book says? They eject Michael and cage him, but he destroys Dean on the way out? Maybe that's what he's doing at the cabin, building the cage that will hold him, knowing it means his own death. 

It could explain the "it has to be this way", and also Sam's unimaginable choice: to help Dean eject Michael, knowing it will kill Dean.

(brought over from the regular spoiler thread)

[ahrtee]

23 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

It occurs to me that Michael said to Dean, "Even if you could force me out, what do you think I'd leave behind? You'd be nothing but blood and bone."

Could that be what the book says? They eject Michael and cage him, but he destroys Dean on the way out? Maybe that's what he's doing at the cabin, building the cage that will hold him, knowing it means his own death. 

It could explain the "it has to be this way", and also Sam's unimaginable choice: to help Dean eject Michael, knowing it will kill Dean.

(brought over from the regular spoiler thread)

I was thinking more of the mess the archangels left behind when they left their vessels back in season 5.  Remember that "our" Michael promised Dean he wouldn't leave him a "drooling mess."  This Michael hasn't promised that.  BUT (and this is the point):  that wouldn't kill Dean, and the book is supposedly showing his death, not what happens before that. 

But I do believe that if he knows he'd be left as a vegetable, he'd prefer death, especially if seeing him that way would put such a burden/so much angst on poor Sammy.  So Sam's unimaginable choice is to eject Michael, knowing that he'd leave Dean a vegetable (because honestly, the threat of one of them dying is nothing to be concerned about any more :) ).  So maybe the book shows vegetable Dean dying by a mercy killing.  Of course, we know Sam wouldn't do it, and I don't think Dean would put that enormous guilt on him; and I can't imagine Dean believing him if he said he would.

Maybe the poignant scene between Dean and Cas is Dean asking *Cas* to kill his vessel because he knows Sam can't/won't?

Edited January 21, 2019 by ahrtee

[AwesomO4000]

33 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Could that be what the book says? They eject Michael and cage him, but he destroys Dean on the way out? Maybe that's what he's doing at the cabin, building the cage that will hold him, knowing it means his own death. 

For me, I think maybe even worse than death for Dean would be if the "nothing but blood and bone" meant that Dean would be a drooling, insane and/or incapacitated mess. I think for Dean that would be one of the more awful and "what do I do with this?" things that could happen to him.

Just because original flavor Michael told Dean he wouldn't leave Dean that way doesn't mean that this Michael wouldn't leave him that way if it benefited him... and at least in the short term, that might benefit him, because Sam would have to be concerned with and find a way to fix Dean. I imagine that Castiel might be able to, but it might be risky to him or they could make up "I can't fix this kind of trauma" (similar to Sam's mental problems in season 7).

I don't know if that's what Michael meant by "nothing but blood and bone," but that was the first thing that came to me when he said that: just a body, no mind and/or consciousness. An empty "meat suit."

Edited to add: @ahrtee: Jinx!

Edited January 21, 2019 by AwesomO4000

[gonzosgirrl]

I agree with both of you @ahrtee and @AwesomO4000 - being a drooling mess of blood and bone would be the worst possible fate for Dean. But since it's a death book, maybe the exit - however they achieve it - means Michael either doubles down on it and kills Dean on the way out, or the process itself kills him. Could be that the means of his death - what he read in the book - is also the solution to evicting/ending Michael. 

2 hours ago, ahrtee said:

Maybe the poignant scene between Dean and Cas is Dean asking *Cas* to kill his vessel because he knows Sam can't/won't?

Dang. Yeah. He did say he made some people cry. That'd do it.

Edited January 21, 2019 by gonzosgirrl

[ILoveReading]

https://www.tvguide.com/news/supernaturals-jensen-ackles-and-jared-padalecki-tease-300th-episode/?ftag=COS-05-10aaa0g&utm_campaign=trueAnthem:+manual&utm_content=5c4640e21adf640001fd519f&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter

I notice that once again, all they talk about is Sam's time with John being cathartic, once again nothing about what Dean's time with John is about.

[AwesomO4000]

Maybe they want it to be a surprise?

This last episode maybe ended up being more than what some people expected maybe because they didn't spoil what was going to happen.

But I often think maybe the promo people go too far in the other direction sometimes? Even the clips that were given for the past episode had some fans speculating that Sam was talking bout going in and defeating Michael in Dean's mind and it ended up that Sam didn't say or even imply anything like that. Instead Sam was talking about the opposite - warning Dean so that Dean could kick Michael out.

I pretty much think any publicity for this show should be taken with a grain of salt, because what actually happens sometimes is what they seem to be saying is going to happen, but sometimes it only bears a slight resemblance to what the publicity and promos lead some people to expect. It could very well be that Sam does get some cathartic closure with John. It could also be that it's only a small part of the episode and/or one that they don't mind spoiling while keeping other things as a surprise.

[DeeDee79]

26 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Even the clips that were given for the past episode had some fans speculating that Sam was talking bout going in and defeating Michael in Dean's mind and it ended up that Sam didn't say or even imply anything like that. Instead Sam was talking about the opposite - warning Dean so that Dean could kick Michael out.

I pretty much think any publicity for this show should be taken with a grain of salt, because what actually happens sometimes is what they seem to be saying is going to happen, but sometimes it only bears a slight resemblance to what the publicity and promos lead some people to expect.

Good point; I agree with this. The promos usually end up being less than accurate in regards to what we actually get when the episode airs these days.

[SueB]

If anyone needs a cathartic closure with John, that can be wrapped up in a single episode, it’s Sam.  Sam and John couldn’t go 5 minutes without butting heads.  John and Dean has a f*cked up relationship from a parentification perspective but there was real love there.  Both deeply embraced when they saw each other again in “Shadow.”  WE see the abuse of turning Dean into a soldier but Dean remembers his Dad.  And even if Dean has realized that his father screwed him up, he’s not going to bring that out immediately upon seeing him.  For them, in THEIR POV, they were close and took care of each other.  And although I know this will piss off some, I think Dean would be more interested in 1) Sam/John closure and 2) praise from John for all the good he (Dean) has done.  The last thing Dean would want is conflict if he had a limited time with John.  All Dean has ever wanted is his family together with love in their hearts for each other.  Dean gets that (based on the family meal picture).   That’s the closure he needs.   To have a moment he can cherish.  

 

IF John was around for a lot longer and IF John understood what he had done to Dean, then some hashing out an apologies would be natural.  But John already apologized to Dean for putting too much in him in EP 2.1.  For John, he was practically loquacious.   Of course he then told Dean he had to save Sam or kill him — extremely shitty burden — but Dean would see it from John’s POV.  That this (his life) was all John could offer Dean.  Even if Dean would rather be dead than kill Sam. It’s totally messed up but resolution would again be a distant issue IMO compared to having his family whole and briefly at peace.  

[Bergamot]

The relationship between John and his sons was one of the best aspects of the show in its early years, deep and painful and complex and heartrending. The fact that he died and his sons never got a chance to resolve everything with him was one of the best things the show has ever done, because it was so true to real life, where things aren't tied up in a tidy little bow but somehow you have to go on living.

I think that maybe the worst thing that has happened to the show is that those who write it have decided that their job is not to tell a good story about complex human beings, but to "give the fans what they want". If they are bringing John back only for a brief sentimental reunion full of hugs, then it is nothing more than a gimmick and fanservice. Like pointlessly bringing back a fake Bobby and a fake Charlie.

So apparently they wanted a really big gimmick for this milestone episode, and they wanted to bring back John. And from things I've heard the actor say about the character, I don't believe he would have been interested in coming back unless John was shown in a positive light. So I am not expecting anything beyond sentimental fanservice.

Having said all that, if there is not enough time in the episode to dig in the complex relationship between Dean and John, one of the most fascinating and fundamental aspects of the show, then there shouldn't be "enough time" to go into the relationship between Sam and John. Because then the episode won't be about the continuing story of Dean and Sam, about what each of the two main characters might need or should get, it will simply be about the gimmick. If so, let's get the gimmick over with, so that maybe we could go back to telling a story.