A Thread for All Seasons: OUaT Across All Realms

[stealinghome]

For all episodes in the first 2 1/2 seasons!

[CinnamonCat]

*fights the deep-seated urge to write: "first!!1!"*

 

I feel like the show is maturing a lot, in terms of portraying the villains' motivations. Sure, they will always have a Regina-shaped blind spot, but I'm impressed that they haven't even tried to make us feel sorry for either Pan or Zelena. Or Cora, for that matter.

Awww, they're growing up.

[Last Time Lord]

One problem I'm having with the second arc this season is it just feels so disconnected from the first. This has felt more like a new season as opposed as the second half of one

Say what you will about season 2, but at least Greg and Tamara were introduced during the Cora arc before taking center stage as antagonists.

[mindbird]

I'm on a website where they think this is a bad show? Nice. Really nice.

Edited April 8, 2014 by stacey
Moved to appropriate topic

[mstaken]

Based on the recommendations of many fellow TV fans, I'm overcoming my heretofore meh-ness on Jennifer Morrison to mainline this series over the next week or two.

Some people I know insist that the show keeps getting progressively better with each season, while others maintain that she show's first season was its best. Naturally, I trust the opinions of you guys over that of the halfhearted TV fans I know in "real" life, so I'd love to hear your thoughts on the show's best and worst seasons so far! 

[Crimson Belle]

Season 1 was by far the best.   2 is a disaster.  3 is somewhat better than 2.

 

On another note, for a show that invokes the premise that "evil is made, not born", they sure as hell seem to go out of the way to portray nature over nurture by having children take on the characteristics and choices of their parents. 

Emma is very much like Snow and Charming, in many ways, minus her issues with trust and such, and the show and publicity folks go out of their way to emphasize that with the pictures of how she holds her sword, etc.

Despite having been raised by Regina, Henry is much more like the Charming side of the family.

Despite having not been raised by Cora, one bad things turns what's her face/dead witch walking (I presume) into a mini-Cora.

Regina is much like Cora in how she reacts to being slighted, though obviously nurture could play a role there.

Neal ended up making the same mistakes his father did, abandoning his family and putting his wants/needs to get back to Emma/Henry over what was good for the rest of the realm.

I'm sure there are other examples, but it just strikes me that, as often is the case, what the show shows me is very different from what the creators tell me they are showing.

 

 

 

[mstaken]

Season 1 was by far the best.   2 is a disaster.  3 is somewhat better than 2.

Heh---thanks for the warning! I just watched the Pilot and loved it. LOVED IT. Like 'immediately ordered the DVDs on my soon-to-be-maxed-out-credit-card-and-paid-for-two-day-shipping-because-I-need-them-immediately loved it. I loved the overall look and feel, the acting, the characters, and even the dialogue. I'm trying to temper my expectations, but that's sometimes easier said than done when I fall in such instant, deep love with a show. I'm guessing I should just enjoy it for now and not expect to be, er, happily ever after. (Sorry, I couldn't resist!)  Maybe I'll take a deliberately long time to watch S1 so that I can postpone the disappointment that S2 may bring. 

[3dog]

Oh fun. I'd love to hear updates on how you like it as you progress through the episodes and seasons.

[Blue Girl]

On first watch I didn't like Season 2, but later when I re-watched it all at once (through Netflix) I enjoyed it a lot more.  If you finish your S1 DVDs and want to see S2 without paying I think you can do the free Hulu Plus trial and you'll have a week to watch S2.  

[FormerMod-a1]

Season 1 was by far the best.   2 is a disaster.  3 is somewhat better than 2.

I wouldn't call Season 2 a disaster, but it definitely wasn't as good as Season 1 or 3 (so far).  There are elements and story lines in all seasons that I really liked.  But also some character "changes" and focus on some characters that I could have done without.

[KAOS Agent]

The first half of Season 2 isn't as bad when you can watch it all at once. Part of the problem I had with watching it real time is that they had too many differing storylines going and they could really only focus on two in each episode which meant if the one I was most interested in wasn't featured, I got annoyed - especially because a lot of the featured flashback stories just weren't that great. 

The back half of Season 2 is such a mess that I quit watching for a time. I've watched relevant scenes, but there are several episodes I've never seen in full and others I only wish that I could block out of my memory. TV has made it so that I've gotten pretty good at that though. I still refuse to acknowledge that Season 3 of Veronica Mars ever happened. 

[FurryFury]

I still refuse to acknowledge that Season 3 of Veronica Mars ever happened.

 

At least they've fixed it with the movie.

 

Also, I'm really not into 3B. It's not as offensively bad as the latter half of S2, but is somewhat bland and unexciting. I just can't bring myself to care about Zelena, about Henry's fake memory, about Regina and Robin, about Snowing baby... Neverland could, at times, feel monotonous, but it was way more interesting, and with a more compelling villain (until the Daddy Pan reveal, of course). It's just so disappointing they couldn't do more with Oz.

[Whoop Whoop]

Hi all, brand spanking new here since I had just discovered TWoP a week before they shut down. I'm always late to the party! I just wanted to I troduce myself and throw my own two cents in regarding this half of season three. Ya know, I didn't expect to love this villain mainly because I was never big on The Wizard of Oz personally, but I love OUAT, so I figured I would get passed that. What I cannot get passed though is Zelena. She's menacing but in a super annoying way! Pan was someone I thought was fearsome. Same with Regina back in her day, but this chick is just straight up annoying...and the nonsense about her being the most challenging villain doesn't seem to ring true for me.

My main problem though is that this villain has basically *muted* the characteristics of all of my favourite characters. Rump is powerless...that is too unlike him. I get showing some vulnerability in a character, but this has gone on too long to take a powerful character like that out of his element for this long. Same with Regina. She's been made even more insecure than before, the witch pretty much set up Bae's death which made Emma more infuriatingly guarded and walled in than before, Hook isn't even himself...surely he won't be fun, flippant Hook in the wake of Bae's death but even before then he's just so muted - it's the best word I can think of to describe it. We have barely seen the dwarves, so obviously I'm missing Grump's loud mouth, and Snow is NOT the badass they were prepping her to be in either Seasons 1, 2 or even the first half of 3.

I just feel like this half of season 3 just changed too many things in the characters; and granted if they come through this, they'll be the better for it, but right now the gang is taking a lot of hits but they're losing the essence of the characters while doing so. Pan scared the hell out of most of them, but they didn't lose this much of what we, or maybe just I, love about them.

[FurryFury]

I think, with Pan, it was also the surroundings that helped him work. The characters were out of their familiar setting, in a land where everything and everyone was trying to kill them, and Pan was the master of this land. But Zelena? She inserted herself into Storybrooke, a place where the heroes have an established support system and lots of allies. Meanwhile, her only helpers are Rumplestiltskin (who's unwilling and clearly working on a way to undermine her) and winged monkeys (who are most likely also unwilling). It's much harder to sell her as a threat there. Even sorta-killing Neal didn't help, because a) lots of viewers are probably thankful for that (I know I am) and b) he was pretty willing to be manipulated - you could say his death was as much his fault as Zelena's.

[Amazemint]

Muted characters is a good way to put it. It's good to see the characters in a variety of circumstances, otherwise things become monotonous. The danger is that they may never return to their former selves. I remember when the awesome characters on Buffy (and later Angel) experienced character growth and were, essentially, muted. It was disappointing. I know that's not quite what you are saying but it just reminded me of that. Hopefully the writers of ouat can grow the characters through the season without destroying the things that made them compelling in the first place. Then again, I'm not a writer so I'm not sure if that's possible.

Edited April 11, 2014 by Amazemint

[Whoop Whoop]

I agree...sometimes we lose things about a character when they grow. There are ways to do it, however. If you take Rumple, for example (since his muted form is bothering me the most), he has already grown in the sense that he has learned that loss of family is far more painful than loss of power, so he has learned to make personal sacrifices. The other parts of his core though, I suppose from all his years of being The Dark One, include lots of wisdom, lots of powerful sorcery, lots of wit and lots of cunning. This Zelena arc so far has stripped him of aaaall of that. I think it is necessary to take characters out of their realm and put them in new situations as well, and this Zelena-Storybrooke of Season 3.5 is an example of that, but the circumstances have stripped most of the key players' essence for too long of a time now, in my opinion. An episode or two of seeing a character's...well...character be turned upside down is fine and makes for repeat watching since we wanna see the character return to their normal self, but this is taking way too long. We are going into what, episode 5 right now, and each week it's Zelena being bat**** crazy, taunting and annoying, and all of our key characters basically acting as though their core has been ripped from them. Emma with her incessant "I am not part of you guys, I wanna go back to being a bail bonds person!" (When she seemed to finally be making some progress in the last half season); Regina with her "I'm skurred, Rump said my crazy sister is mightier than I am!", Snow just being all " I'm pregnant and I don't make any sense or have any self preservation skills!" (the same lady who lived as a fugitive when Regina was hunting her down...shot arrows that didn't miss and jacked up Charming when they first met); Henry, the true believer being amnesia Henry so he doesn't believe anything, and on and on and on. The only one who remotely resembles himself is Charming. I'm also gonna take the opportunity to say how much I miss Red's character. Take that cloak off of her on a nice full moon, point her at some flying monkeys and watch the fun.

[Melgaypet]

I'm probably behind all of y'all, but I finally ordered the first two seasons on DVD and they arrived today. Yay! I can't wait to start again from the beginning. This show is my happy place.

[formerlyfreedom]

Here's the place to discuss particular episodes, arcs and moments from the Once Upon A Time's first two and a half seasons. Please remember this isn't a complete catch-all topic -- check out the forum for episode & character topics and other threads for show-related talk!

[daxx]

I can watch seasons 1-2 on Netflix but I am still tempted to buy the DVDs for the commentaries.

I'm not obsessed, not at all.

This is the only show to do this to me since Smallville.

[justcris]

Does anyone here actually have the DVDs and can tell me if the extras are worth it? Like, are there any good commentaries, or is it just a few interview clips that are available in youtube? I tried researching online but couldn't find anything definitive on this.

[Melgaypet]

I haven't gotten to the second season DVD's yet, but there seem to be several episode commentaries as well as special features. Same goes for the first season, and I loved the commentaries. Definitely worth it, in my opinion.

[KAOS Agent]

Since I went off a bit on Snow for her choices regarding her children, I thought I'd be equal opportunity and talk about something that occurred to me while watching the S3 finale. If David's mother, Ruth, had a ring valuable enough that it could help pay for passage on a ship to another realm, why did she choose to keep the ring and instead sell her child? I mean, I guess James was going to be royalty and all and they wanted to give him his "best chance", but they kept their other kid, so that argument seems little sketchy to me. And since I know that she actually did have something of value, shouldn't she have tried everything she could before literally selling her child to Rumpelstiltskin? In the past, I never really thought about the value of the ring thinking it had more sentimental value than monetary. However,now they explicitly had Emma say that she needed the money she got for the ring to pay for her passage, so I'm having issues with this "true love" ring now because it symbolizes some really bad choices to me. I don't know, maybe I'm confused and need to watch "The Shepherd" again (though I'm not sure I can deal with David's hair) to clarify, but the ring is really problematic to me now.

[KingOfHearts]

Maybe Ruth didn't obtain the ring until after James was sold off? Or perhaps it had too much sentimental value to Ruth to sell.

 

It could have been crafted at Mordor for all I know. 

[stealinghome]

Do we actually *know* the ring was worth all that much, though? The only reason Snow wanted it is because Hook asked for it explicitly. For all we know, it's actually only worth 5 pennies but just looks nice-ish.

[KAOS Agent]

I guess it's not totally clear about the ring's value. Obviously, Hook only wanted it because he needed Snow to steal that specific item to get David involved, so his interest is not important. However, it seems like in the original timeline, Snow had sold all of her stolen goods including her latest haul from the theft of David's ring to the trolls and was on her way to get on a ship when David caught her in his net (she was carrying her bag of goods including all of her valuables). In the finale, when she went to seek passage she had money, but was without the extra money she'd have gained from stealing the ring and thus, did not have enough for Blackbeard to agree to take her. That's why I'm questioning the ring, how someone so poor had possession of it in the first place and why she would choose to keep a ring that has at least some value over her own child.

[Shanna Marie]

In the original timeline, didn't Snow steal all the jewelry? Charming just wanted that one ring back for sentimental reasons, but Snow also got a lot of other sparkly stuff. In timeline #2, the ring was only worth passage because Hook was deliberately trying to re-create the original situation by making her steal it. It's entirely possible that if Snow took that same ring to Blackbeard, thinking it was valuable because of Hook's demand, he would have laughed at her because it was the Enchanted Forest equivalent of the kind of ring you get in a gumball machine.

[Joenigma]

 And since I know that she actually did have something of value, shouldn't she have tried everything she could before literally selling her child to Rumpelstiltskin?

The answer is quite simple. Rumpelstiltskin didn't want the ring he wanted the child so he can complete his deal with King George about giving him and his wife a son.

 

My guess Ruth and their family made ends meet and lived happily on the farm until Rumple showed up with this deal. For all we know, Ruth probably did offer her ring as payment but Rumple most likely reiterated that their child will do.

[stealinghome]

Also, Ruth may have figured that giving her child up to be raised as a prince, to be cared for and fed and loved and never want for anything, trumped a few shekels for the ring.

[Dani-Ellie]

From the Relationships thread:

 

I don't think it was the writers' intention, but I heard the Echo Cave speech as a write-off speech.

 

I did, too, and this is what's so frustrating. There are serious, serious perception issues regarding how what's written comes across in the final product. There's a lot that we've prefaced with "I'm sure it wasn't their intention," and that is so very problematic. I can't imagine this show doesn't have editors going over the scripts, so I have no idea where the disconnect is happening, but it's been happening since the first season. If they don't have script editors, they need some. If they continually shoot more than can fit in the time allotted, they need to be more mindful of what's being cut and what's being left in. For all we know, all this Charming Family stuff has been addressed but it's all been left on the cutting room floor.

 

I completely understand how hard it is to write for characters you don't particularly care for and how easy it is to write for characters you love, but when you're trying to reach a wider audience, one needs to create a balanced story, and creating a balanced story requires fairness and equity. When I was writing Charmed fic, for example, I had a problem with unintentionally ignoring Phoebe because I didn't like her. It was during edits that I had to take lines from Piper and Prue and give them to Phoebe because whether I liked it or not, Phoebe was an important element of the story. The writers may love Regina and Rumple, but Snow and Charming and Emma and Henry are just as important to the story. They need their due, not only from a story perspective but from an audience perspective. Everyone has their favorite characters and having one's favorite character continually shoved aside for a screentime hog is annoying.

 

If the intention was that Snow and Charming and Emma could never be a family unit, then I'm sorry, but that intention is not at all what was telegraphed throughout season one and the first half of season two. Snow leaped into a portal that was leading to oblivion, for all she knew, because she couldn't bear to lose her daughter again. What the hell happened to that story? The one we've gotten from 2B forward is not at all emotionally satisfying to me. Good triumphing over evil, family reconnection, and healing the past's wounds are all emotionally satisfying. "Welp, we tried, and it's not going to work so this is as good as it's going to get" is not.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[Mari]

From the Relationships thread:

 

 

I did, too, and this is what's so frustrating. There are serious, serious perception issues regarding how what's written comes across in the final product. There's a lot that we've prefaced with "I'm sure it wasn't their intention," and that is so very problematic. I can't imagine this show doesn't have editors going over the scripts, so I have no idea where the disconnect is happening, but it's been happening since the first season. If they don't have script editors, they need some. If they continually shoot more than can fit in the time allotted, they need to be more mindful of what's being cut and what's being left in. For all we know, all this Charming Family stuff has been addressed but it's all been left on the cutting room floor.

...

If the intention was that Snow and Charming and Emma could never be a family unit, then I'm sorry, but that intention is not at all what was telegraphed throughout season one and the first half of season two. Snow leaped into a portal that was leading to oblivion, for all she knew, because she couldn't bear to lose her daughter again. What the hell happened to that story? The one we've gotten from 2B forward is not at all emotionally satisfying to me. Good triumphing over evil, family reconnection, and healing the past's wounds are all emotionally satisfying. "Welp, we tried, and it's not going to work so this is as good as it's going to get" is not.

Yes.  I'm not sure what's happening in the writers room, but there have been obvious relationship/characterization issues for characters for a while now.  Even obvious favorites like Regina or Rumple have gotten some pretty hither and thither characterization and development.

 

If a character does one thing that's weird or out of character, it's not the end of the world.  That can be chalked up to a brief mind-fart moment for the character and you go on.  But if the character keeps doing similar things over and over again (Snow being uninterested in Emma while sucking up to Regina at every possible moment, or Belle being completely uninterested in Rumple's collateral damage as long as she doesn't have to clean blood off her too-high-for-her-to-walk-in-heels.) it becomes the character.

 

The writers saying on twitter or in interviews or commentaries that "No, no, the character is truly ___ and the problem was all ___."  doesn't mean that's the story they actually told.  It's just the story they thought about telling.

Edited June 10, 2014 by Mari

[KingOfHearts]

You're spot on, Mari. I think the character issues are affecting almost everyone on the main show. 

 

This has probably been said half a dozen times before, but all the characters seem to get dumbed down for the sake of the plot. Emma, bail bondswoman extraordinaire, never found out Zelena was the midwife until she was flat out told by Rumple. Henry, who was strongly against magic and tried to literally blow it up with dynamite, tried to save magic in Neverland. He ripped out his own heart just because Pan told him to, against the pleas of his own parents. Regina, a master of dark magic, was thrown around like a ragdoll for almost all of 3B because Zelena was overpowered. Belle takes every word out of Rumple's mouth as the gospel truth, even though she's been tricked by him in the past... the list goes on.

 

I know the mains are better than this. I'd like to see them act smart instead of being told they did through dialogue. 

Edited June 10, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[KAOS Agent]

 

This has probably been said half a dozen times before, but all the characters seem to get dumbed down for the sake of the plot.

 

I think it's worse when they do it for comedic reasons. Like Hook being completely incapable of coming up with an alias when they walked into the ball. These are two very street smart people who live on quick thinking and deception, he should be able to come up with something without even pausing. It's so jarring when they do that that what's played for laughs just leaves me annoyed. Or how about Emma, who described portions of Back to the Future, which means she watched it (and probably parts II & III as well), having to have Hook explain the consequences of changing the past to her. I'm sorry, what? If anything, it should have been the other way around. It's ridiculous. 

[Camera One]

This has probably been said half a dozen times before, but all the characters seem to get dumbed down for the sake of the plot.

 

I've been annoyed by this since Season 1, since they construct a lot of their stories and entire arcs almost reliant on the fact that the protagonist would be being bamboozled.  For example, having Emma fall for Sidney's fake alliance would be a prime example in S1... so frustrating to watch.  And it only got worse from there, with the advent of dopplegangers who are actually Cora and Zelena, to obviously shady people (Greg Mendel, Zelena the midwife) sneaking around while the "good guys" are oblivious, to the good guys never approaching any situation with an intelligent and well thought-out plan (eg. just walking into Peter Pan's camp... oh goody, he's not here, or Zelena's easy stroll through the hospital hallway confronting such formidable foes as Belle in her high heels).  

Edited June 10, 2014 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

For example, having Emma fall for Sidney's fake alliance would be a prime example in S1...

 

Funny you mention it, I just finished watching that episode.

 

At least in S1's Emma vs. Mayor Mills, both sides had victories and losses. Emma would win a round, then Regina, and so on. With Zelena, however, Team Hero just kept losing miserably... Emma and Hook just waltzed up to Zelena's farmhouse out in the open, Belle and the gang tried to eliminate Rumple from the showdown when they knew it was a death trap, Hook didn't tell anyone about the kiss curse... The sad part is Zelena's plan wasn't even that brilliant. The only reason she even came close to winning was because she was lucky enough to get the Dark One's dagger. She could have easily executed the plan in the Enchanted Forest if she had an ounce of subtlety.

 

(I apologize if 3B is off-topic. If so, do we need an all seasons thread?)

[stealinghome]

At least in S1's Emma vs. Mayor Mills, both sides had victories and losses. Emma would win a round, then Regina, and so on.

Also, to me, the fact that Regina kept winning in S1 didn't bug because it seemed like part of the curse, you know? Like, the curse made it so that things were always rigged in Regina's favor, and Emma could only win sometimes because Gold was helping her out and rigging the rig, so to speak. That made sense to me--it was a nice, subtle way of illustrating the curse/Regina's power.

 

But yeah, there's no excuse for how literally every single main character gets dumbed down whenever the plot calls for it. My personal favorite from the most recent half-season is that Regina cast the spell on her heart so that no one could control her if they had it, but didn't cast on herself the spell that makes other people unable to take your heart at all (the one she cast on Henry in 3x09). Like...what??? That makes not a lick of sense! Who casts the first on his/herself but NOT the second???? And Regina of all people, who knows how dangerous a heart-ripping can be?! Literally no sense.

[Camera One]

My personal favorite from the most recent half-season is that Regina cast the spell on her heart so that no one could control her if they had it, but didn't cast on herself the spell that makes other people unable to take your heart at all (the one she cast on Henry in 3x09). Like...what??? That makes not a lick of sense!

 

It was a total "make it up as you go along" development, since one would think Cora would also have put a spell on her heart, so she cannot be controlled with it.  But then it idiotic Snow-dark-heart-dilemma couldn't have happened.  The writers are really something, eh?

[KAOS Agent]

 

My personal favorite from the most recent half-season is that Regina cast the spell on her heart so that no one could control her if they had it, but didn't cast on herself the spell that makes other people unable to take your heart at all.

 

Considering how much better off Regina was without her heart, I guess she knew better than to make it un-rippable. I'm just surprised that now that she knows you can live without half your heart that she doesn't start gouging out all the black parts so she can have a heart purer than that black-spotted heart Snow White is currently half sporting.

[KingOfHearts]

Also, to me, the fact that Regina kept winning in S1 didn't bug because it seemed like part of the curse, you know?

 

Yeah. It was Regina's turf. She had been controlling it 28 years. She rigged absolutely everything. Watching S1 again, I realize I forgot how truly evil and powerful her character was. She really has fallen... from destroying realms to having boyfriend problems. It's difficult to believe its the same character. Where was that cunning cleverness in S2 and S3? The inconsistency bothers me deeply... 

 

Regina didn't put her heart in the Charmings' protected loft... why? She left it in the woods with a guy who didn't stand a chance with Zelena. Oh that's right - it was to push Outlaw Queen even further for the big Marian twist! 

 

My vote for the biggest plot hole of S3 is Snow being "pure of heart" for Glinda's door. Such a cop-out.

Edited June 10, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[stealinghome]

My vote for the biggest plot hole of S3 is Snow being "pure of heart" for Glinda's door. Such a cop-out.

Yeah...I have to fanwank that one away by telling myself that Snow's crazy drive to save and befriend and redeem Regina in the S2 finale/S3 "healed" her heart, removing the dark spot.

 

Although I suppose it depends on how you define pure of heart. Which Adam and Eddie will never do (define it, that is). Because then they might have to be held to it!

 

My vote for the biggest S3 plot-holes are 1) how did Peter Pan have a drawing of Henry centuries before Henry's birth (that one's a carryover from S2, I guess), and 2) how the hell did Zelena know to expect the Enchanted Forestians to be returned to their homeland? Oh, and Regina wanting to go under the sleeping curse because it would give her "peaceful slumber" when she knows damn well it will put her into the Fiery Room of Fire is up there too. Actually, I take that all back, the biggest plot hole is how Regina was able to break the curse when Snowing didn't bake in a savior the way Rumpel did. Shouldn't any True Love's Kiss just have broken it then?

Edited June 10, 2014 by stealinghome

[Camera One]

As much as I hated the whole dumb Snow-dark-heart thing, that was significant enough to require a follow-up.  Yet there was absolutely nothing in S3 about that.  I mean, that Door for the pure of heart would have been a good time to deal with it, or to resolve that Snow has healed her heart.  But now that I think more about it, Zelena trapped Glinda there.  Why would she bother with a True-of-Heart requirement for the door?  

[Shanna Marie]

Like Hook being completely incapable of coming up with an alias when they walked into the ball. These are two very street smart people who live on quick thinking and deception, he should be able to come up with something without even pausing. It's so jarring when they do that that what's played for laughs just leaves me annoyed.

That didn't bother me too much because going to the ball wasn't their plan. I figure that if they'd come up with the plan, they'd have worked all that out. But Rumple just poofed up the invitation and the outfits, and since I doubt it would have looked good for them to be trudging up the road to attend a royal ball, he probably teleported them there, too. So next thing they know, they're face-to-face with Midas and they haven't had a chance to come up with an alias. In my head canon, the reason Hook froze was that he actually has dozens of aliases to use in situations like this, but he couldn't remember which one would be safe to use with Midas, since that was a long time ago and he was probably a bit fuzzy on when, exactly, this was. Like, "No, can't use 'Prince Edward' because I used it to pull off that heist in Midas's kingdom. The duke's daughter tried to run away with 'Prince Albert' and probably wasn't happy when I ditched her, so I can't use that one. There might still be wanted posters for 'Prince Harold.' Was 'Prince Stephen' before or after this ball?" So it wasn't just "Eep, I need a name," but rather "Which name can I use that won't get me arrested on the spot?"

 

I also didn't mind Snow counting as "pure of heart" to enter Glinda's doorway because I thought the dark blot on her heart from killing the woman who murdered her mother and her nurse and who was on the verge of threatening the entire town/kingdom/world if she became the Dark One (you think Rumple's bad ...) was one of the worst things they've ever done on this show. If anything, it should have given her some kind of hero's heart, and they should have thrown her a damn parade. But given the amount of grief and remorse she's shown, I can believe that all her tears washed away the dark blot, so she still counts as pure. Maybe your heart only stays black if you don't have any regret for the evil you've done. Or, for all we know, Snow's heart, being 99 3/4% pure is still purer than most human hearts, so she still met the door's threshold. Regina was the only one kept out, which doesn't necessarily mean that the bar was all that high.

[Serena]

I also didn't mind Snow counting as "pure of heart" to enter Glinda's doorway because I thought the dark blot on her heart from killing the woman who murdered her mother and her nurse and who was on the verge of threatening the entire town/kingdom/world if she became the Dark One (you think Rumple's bad ...) was one of the worst things they've ever done on this show. If anything, it should have given her some kind of hero's heart, and they should have thrown her a damn parade. But given the amount of grief and remorse she's shown, I can believe that all her tears washed away the dark blot, so she still counts as pure. Maybe your heart only stays black if you don't have any regret for the evil you've done. Or, for all we know, Snow's heart, being 99 3/4% pure is still purer than most human hearts, so she still met the door's threshold. Regina was the only one kept out, which doesn't necessarily mean that the bar was all that high.

 

Exactly. Maybe Glinda's door is smarter than the writers and understands that doing what is necessary to save lives is actually a good thing.

If anything should have given Snow a dark heart, that would be letting Regina go free in the Enchanted Forest instead of executing her like she was about to do, just after getting proof she was still an homicidial nutcase. But because Snow loved Regina and letting her go free made her feel better (and she and Charming had just been "enchanted" by Rumple so Regina couldn't hurt them), she totally let her go back to her own castle so she could rape Graham some more (can we talk about how neither Snow nor Charming bothered to go free Graham from Regina's clutches?) and do god knows what else. Why does that kind of behavior not give her a "dark spot" and killing in self defense does? Why does killing Medusa - who was chilling in her cave not hurting anyone - not give her a dark heart?

 

Basically, that storyline was full of shit, so I'm glad they dropped it. 

[ShadowFacts]

 

Basically, that storyline was full of shit, so I'm glad they dropped it.

 

Oh, yes. Yes, yes, yes it was.

 

The part where Snow goes after Medusa (on her honeymoon?) is curious and sort of forgotten, isn't it?  And if Regina isn't pure of heart and thus can't get through Glinda's door, how is it that Regina soon thereafter has white magic from loving Henry and giving him true love's kiss?  Didn't she love Henry at that point at the magical door to the frozen land? 

[KingOfHearts]

But like Camera One said, the dark heart was written as a big deal. They wrote it up, but didn't follow through with it. If Snow can just remove her dark spot by good deeds, then so can Regina. Even though she's murdered countless people, eventually she could also become pure of heart.

 

It's not so much the magic rules, but the writing cop-out. "Let's write this plot twist, then not deal with it later!" The writers have done that with so many things.

 

Pure Hearted Snow White is a murderer and a caster of the Dark Curse. Where do you draw the line? She should have to pay a price for both, since they both used magic, but she hasn't.

Edited June 10, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[stealinghome]

Maybe Glinda's door is smarter than the writers.

Oh, this made me laugh and laugh and laugh. Mostly because I have no doubt it's true!

ITA that the "Snow has a dark heart" was a really stupid plot line (and I think, like Greg and Tamara, they dropped it in part because it was so unpopular), but as Camera One said, it was significant enough that I do still think they needed to address it. Just give someone two or three sentences about how Snow's overwhelming remorse and dumbassery--cough, I mean goodness--in the S2 finale healed the dark spot. It's not that hard to give us even a cop-out answer. But ITA with KingOfHearts that not even addressing it just exemplifies how plot-driven but consequence and follow through-free the writing has become.

[Shanna Marie]

If Snow can just remove her dark spot by good deeds, then so can Regina.

It might not have been good deeds that removed the dark spot, but rather remorse over the bad deeds. Regina's yet to show any remorse and continues to act like everything she did was fully justified. I don't think Regina's shed a single tear over realizing what she's done to others, and the only apology I can recall was the one Belle demanded. Regina let Snow apologize repeatedly for killing Cora without a word of apology of what Regina has done to Snow, just a grudging "it's complicated" when acknowledging that Cora murdered Snow's mother. There's not really any moral scale in existence in which one can reasonably equate Regina and Snow.

 

If anything should have given Snow a dark heart, that would be letting Regina go free in the Enchanted Forest instead of executing her like she was about to do, just after getting proof she was still an homicidial nutcase.

That's where the morality of this show gets really wonky (do we have a morality thread here like at TWOP?). It's considered "good" to let a murderer go free to continue terrorizing the kingdom, simply because she can't hurt you directly anymore, but it's considered "bad" to kill a murderer to stop her from killing others and turning herself into an invincible creature of evil.

 

And then there's Snow's idea of helping everyone feel better upon the return to the Enchanted Forest by presenting a united front between herself and Regina. You know what might have made the general public feel better? Bringing Regina to some kind of justice, even if it's just a show trial with a verdict "sentencing" her to helping the kingdom recover by working with Snow. If "what happens in the Enchanted Forest stays in the Enchanted Forest," then shouldn't there be some kind of justice while they're in the Enchanted Forest for the actions taken there? I bet any loved ones of all those murdered villagers are so happy to see their princess happily working with the Evil Queen.

[KingOfHearts]

Regina is probably the most polarized character on the show. In S1, she's the most evil thing to ever evil, and now she's a friend to the Charmings and light magic wielder with no real redemption in between. I honestly want Regina to redeem herself, but that would also ruin what people (Evil Regals, fans) love about her character. It seems the writers have dug themselves into another hole with this one. It's hard to feel bad for someone who doesn't care about what they did. I know from a logical perspective her character can and should have serious remorse, but the writers want the popular Evil Queen. Ugh.

 

Just thinking about the writing gives me a headache. I'm too attached to these characters, lol.

[kili]

Just give someone two or three sentences about how Snow's overwhelming remorse and dumbassery--cough, I mean goodness--in the S2 finale healed the dark spot. It's not that hard to give us even a cop-out answer.

 

I didn't think to check at the time because I was all "This is ridiculous", but did Snow's heart still have the black spot on it when it was ripped into two? If so, who got the dark piece?

 

Actually, I think it might have been a little interesting if Snow and Regina had got left behind  at the door and Charms was the only one to make it through. It wuuld have made more angst of the heart taking scene (the pure-hearted one had to lose his heart because he's the one not carrying the baby).

 

I do agree, though, that if this show is all about redemption, dark hearts should be able to be healed or at least made less dark. I'm kind of surprised that Regina's heart wasn't pitch black. Rumple's must be like a black-hole.

 

And then there's Snow's idea of helping everyone feel better upon the return to the Enchanted Forest by presenting a united front between herself and Regina.

 

My first thought as random villager would not be that Regina turned good, but that Snow turned bad or was under he spell. Regina was seriously bad in the Enchanted Forrest.

 

Of course, Snow's next idea of helping to cheer up the villagers facing flying monkey attacks was to announce that she was having a baby. Knowing what happened the last time Snow had a baby (half the world was taken away to be cursed for 28 years and the rest was overrun with ogres), I'm not thinking that would cheer me up either.

[MaiLuna]

 

Oh, and Regina wanting to go under the sleeping curse because it would give her "peaceful slumber" when she knows damn well it will put her into the Fiery Room of Fire is up there too.

Actually, it seems people go to that room after they've woken up from the Sleeping Curse. When you're in the sleeping curse you go to that dark room with the mirrors that they showed Charming in. He had to break into the firey room. Still that doesn't make the dark mirror-y room a nice place to be until (if ever) awoken.

[Serena]

But like Camera One said, the dark heart was written as a big deal. They wrote it up, but didn't follow through with it. If Snow can just remove her dark spot by good deeds, then so can Regina. Even though she's murdered countless people, eventually she could also become pure of heart.

 

It's not so much the magic rules, but the writing cop-out. "Let's write this plot twist, then not deal with it later!" The writers have done that with so many things.

 

Pure Hearted Snow White is a murderer and a caster of the Dark Curse. Where do you draw the line? She should have to pay a price for both, since they both used magic, but she hasn't.

Sure, so can Regina, when she does as much good as she did bad. That should only take several thousand years.

 

The big deal about the Dark Curse was that you murdered the one you love most for your own evil purpose. That was what made it so dark. Snow didn't murder Charming (he sacrificed himself, and then she sacrificed half her own heart to save him) and her motive was to save an innocent child. Plus, the actual work was done by Regina, Snow only crushed a heart given willingly. So I don't see the big deal in that.

 

 

It might not have been good deeds that removed the dark spot, but rather remorse over the bad deeds. Regina's yet to show any remorse and continues to act like everything she did was fully justified. I don't think Regina's shed a single tear over realizing what she's done to others, and the only apology I can recall was the one Belle demanded. Regina let Snow apologize repeatedly for killing Cora without a word of apology of what Regina has done to Snow, just a grudging "it's complicated" when acknowledging that Cora murdered Snow's mother. There's not really any moral scale in existence in which one can reasonably equate Regina and Snow.

Oh, that was hilarious how Regina was like "yeah, it's complicated because she murdered your mother", without mentioning that she murdered Snow's father.