A Thread for All Seasons: OUaT Across All Realms

[Shanna Marie]

In fact, once he lost his heart, there were very few Emma/Hook only scenes in 4A.

And I don't recall any episodes in which Emma and Hook were together for most of the episode as part of the main action since the 4A premiere when they fought/ran from the snow monster together. Even in their big date episode, they had the scene when she asked him out, the scene when he picked her up, a fraction of a scene in the restaurant that ended up being more about his confrontation with Will, and then the scene when he took her home. Their actual date was mostly skipped over, and the main plot of the episode focused on the conflict between Rumple and Hook, with most of the action happening there.

 

Otherwise, most of the episodes have two main patterns:

1) Early in the episode, Hook drops by the police station to bring her coffee/lunch and announce where he'll be offscreen for the remainder of the episode. Emma does other things during the episode, interacting with other characters (mostly Elsa in 4A, Regina in 4B). At the end of the episode, Hook pops by again and they have a brief, meaningful conversation about what she experienced or learned during the episode, then they kiss and/or hug.

2) Early in the episode, either Emma assigns Hook to do something or he comes up with his own plan and announces what he's going to do. He goes off and does it while Emma does something else. They meet up again at the end of the episode -- often after he's been in danger and either she never knows it or finds out at the last second but doesn't get to react or do anything about it -- and kiss. If they're really lucky, they get to snuggle and look adorable during the coda montage. Otherwise, she ditches him soon after the kiss to go have a wrap-up scene with other people.

 

If the episode is really, really 'shippy, there may be an interlude scene where they run into each other in the middle and have a chance to interact.

 

You could cut all the Hook scenes with Emma, and there still wouldn't be that much room to add more interaction with Henry. We'd just have Henry popping by the police station on the way to school and saying hi on the way to Regina's house after school.

 

So, question. If this whole time the big bad plan was to turn Emma's heart dark or whatever, why haven't they just tried to kill everyone Emma loves? Isn't that how everyone on this show turns villainous? Someone close to them dies and they snap?

If they need Emma to turn dark, they aren't working very hard at it. This was the big fail when all the villains were in the loft during the sleeping spell, and they didn't even touch Hook or Emma. They could have killed him and done something to make her think she'd had some kind of evil rage blackout and done it herself, and she'd fear that she really was evil. Or killed the baby and made it look like he'd done it so she'd hate him and feel betrayed. Betrayal and/or death seems to be the key to darkness.

[Camera One]

Because of the piecemeal parcelling of events in each episode of the half-season, the villains are given only one goal at a time.  Maleficent can't even have multiple enemies at the same time.  All that running around to go to August's trailer, sending Regina to grab that page from Henry's book, etc., were so unnecessary.  We saw him poof with the Author in this episode, why didn't he just poof to Henry (he can be found in a couple of predictable locations), freeze him, grab the book, return... that would have taken 10 minutes or less.  Luring Snow and Charming down to Beneath the Library... exactly why?  Conk them on the head, poof them down there, do the ritual, voilà.  Rumple could even have healed them and they would have no idea Maleficent was back.  

 

Good summary of the Hook/Emma patterning in the episodes, Shanna Marie.  I'm sure the forummers here could compile a Rulebook for Once Writers which would allow anyone to write an episode in that style.  Even though Hook/Emma has mostly bookended the episodes, it feels like more because first of all, they are generally happier scenes thus more rewarding and warm and fuzzy.  They also usually have an actual conversation where they reveal some of their inner thoughts.  That is much more than Emma is allowed with Henry or Snow, with these writers' priorities.  Emma/Charming get more work scenes, but on the whole, they are generally more plot-oriented, though once in a while, there's a nice conversation, but it's still less than with Hook.  I don't want them to cut Hook/Emma scenes, but if they did the same amount with Henry/Emma, Snow/Emma and Charming/Emma, the show would be so much nicer, and all of that added together would still probably only take up 7 minutes of run-time per episode, plenty of time for Crazytown with Zelena, Rumple, and the Queens of Where-the-hell-are-they.

Edited April 16, 2015 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

Now I have this urge to write a parody outline of a Generic Once Upon a Time episode. And maybe a generic season arc. Insert name of villain and villain's goal to customize it for a particular arc.

[KAOS Agent]

 

I don't want them to cut Hook/Emma scenes, but if they did the same amount with Henry/Emma, Snow/Emma and Charming/Emma, the show would be so much nicer, and all of that added together would still probably only take up 7 minutes of run-time per episode, plenty of time for Crazytown with Zelena, Rumple, and the Queens of Where-the-hell-are-they.

 

I'm always surprised by how little time is taken up by the Hook/Emma scenes. They're usually less than a minute long unless they want to convey some specific plot point that requires a bit more detail. It doesn't seem like it would be that hard to sprinkle a 30-45 second scene with Emma/Snow and Emma/Henry every three or four episodes just to show that Emma does have a relationship with these characters outside of the villain of the day storyline. 

[Camera One]

Yeah, it's not hard, so basically, they don't care.  I wonder if it would help if there were rabid Emow and Emmry fans out in Twitterland.  

[KAOS Agent]

Victoria Smurfit gave an interview to Cosmopolitan and I thought this was a particularly interesting comment in light of the Marian = Zelena commentary.

 

 

Because the turnaround is so fast, and each episode is so detailed and deep and complicated and entwined, you don't really get to know what's coming down the track, which is why it floored me when I actually read the episode. It's a funny thing to play somebody and work out the why later, because you have to make your own decisions as you go along. And then you realize you're wrong! It was just glorious.

 

See, that's not how it should go. The actor should not be acting one way and then surprise! that's totally wrong for who Cruella is. A&E were asked if we'd gotten any hints about Cruella's backstory and they pretty much said no. And now the actress says she didn't even have a clue until she read the script for her centric. This is just so sad. Part of the fun on Season 1 was watching the little hints drop about certain characters and trying to figure out who their fairy tale counterpart was. Now it seems it's so much about the surprise that the actors are fumbling around making up a character and acting a certain way only to find that it's been wrong all along.

[Camera One]

This is almost exactly the same as Elizabeth Mitchell with the Snow Queen.  

 

 

 

Elizabeth said she actually didn't find out the backstory until shortly before filming that particular episode [revealing she had killed her sister], but her instincts prompted her to play a character with painful past.

 

"They didn't tell me until a few episodes before, but it's kind of how I had been playing it, you know, someone who had been kind of desperately wounded, because they told me it wasn't romantic, which gave me an idea of playing her as a woman who really hadn't had love in her life -- hadn't fallen in love. But when would she have had the chance to?" Elizabeth explained.

Read more at http://www.accesshollywood.com/elizabeth-mitchell-talks-snow-queen-twist-on-once-upon-a-time_article_100567#XxurbZWVgq7EzSMv.99

Edited April 16, 2015 by Camera One

[Zuleikha]

Even though Hook/Emma has mostly bookended the episodes, it feels like more because first of all, they are generally happier scenes thus more rewarding and warm and fuzzy.  They also usually have an actual conversation where they reveal some of their inner thoughts.

That was really what I meant by the pairings. I know Emma has scenes with other characters, but they're plot related. They have to happen because the plot can't happen without it. But her emotionally significant moments are all with Hook now with the very occasional moment with Regina. Because she gets her emotional non-plot moments with Hook and her plot scenes haven't logically been just her and Henry (to be fair to the writers, Henry is often there in the group scenes), she hasn't had meaningful scene time with Henry.

 

I like the idea of her house hunting with Henry, but I also don't think those scenes wouldn't have felt right for where Emma's been at in 4A and 4B. 

 

In regards to the actor's not being told their back stories, that's been going on since s1. I remember an interview with Lana where she said something like she was told that Regina's emotion for the Snow/Charming wedding crashing scene is that all of that could have been hers but Lana wasn't told anything specific about what actually happened between Regina and Snow. There must be a reason for doing things this way, but it seems backwards to me. It seems to me that the actors should know as much as the writers can commit to so that they can play their characters accurately. 

[Curio]

Now it seems it's so much about the surprise that the actors are fumbling around making up a character and acting a certain way only to find that it's been wrong all along.

 

I seriously don't get this tactic. If they plot out the show as intricately as they claim they do ahead of time, then tell your actors more about their motivations! God, this show is so damn lucky it has such amazing actors to portray the crazy shit that goes down in the scripts. You would never have guessed by Elizabeth Mitchell's performance in 4A that she had no clue what was going on. Victoria Smurfit seems to be doing fine in the role right now without knowing her backstory. Colin especially knocked it out of the part in 3B where he had to give Emma pained looks all the time, but didn't know exactly why he was so pained. But I can still go back and rewatch those scenes and think to myself, "Wow, I can really tell Hook is thinking about the Jolly Roger right now," when in actuality, Colin was probably just thinking, "Okay, Adam & Eddy said I made a big sacrifice. Think of something sad."

 

I feel really bad for Marian's actress, though. It's one thing where these actors are playing their true characters and just don't know a small tidbit from their past. But Marian wasn't even supposed to be Marian during 4A! She was supposed to be Zelena playing Marian. That's a huge acting change. That's Colin-pretending-to-be-Hook-pretending-to-be-Rumple levels of acting. Adam & Eddy should have told Christie this twist straight away during the 3B finale, because now we can't go back and rewatch 4A without thinking, "Umm, that...really doesn't seem like Zelena putting on a front."

[KAOS Agent]

 

I remember an interview with Lana where she said something like she was told that Regina's emotion for the Snow/Charming wedding crashing scene is that all of that could have been hers but Lana wasn't told anything specific about what actually happened between Regina and Snow.

 

That's because the wedding crashing happened in the Pilot which was written and filmed months before the show got a green light. That episode had Snow say that Regina wanted to kill her because she was prettier than her. In that case, the writers hadn't fully developed the story because they weren't a go yet. Once the show was green lit, the motivations were given more thought and the actors were given more to go on. Eion Bailey knew he was Pinocchio for instance. It's only more recently that everything is a secret.

Edited April 16, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[scarynikki12]

Continuing my train of thought from the Once vs Other Fairy Tales thread, as these comments are more general, I think an established set of rules regarding magic would have gone a long way towards leveling the playing field between characters and making things make sense in general.  Regina told Emma in season 1 that magic is unpredictable and works differently in our world yet there's honestly no evidence of this.  Regina was able to crush Graham's heart into dust (which she intended), she and Jefferson were able to retrieve the apple (which she intended), the Sleeping Curse put Henry into a death like state (which Regina intended even if the wrong person ate it), True Love's Kiss broke both the Sleeping Curse and the Dark Curse (which was an established way to break the former-and therefore consistent, while unintended for the latter-though not unknown since it hadn't ever been cast before), Rumpel was able to bring magic to Storybrooke and regain his powers (which he intended), that magically imbued scarf kept his memories in tact in New York (which he intended), Zelena's glamour pendant allows her to fool Robin (which she intended), Regina's True Love Kiss for Henry broke the Dark Curse the second time around (which may not have occurred to any of them but firmly established it as the way to break it so I'm putting it in the intended column) and the villains are able to do exactly what they want when it comes to magic.  There's no indication that what Regina told Emma was true.  She may have believed it, as she couldn't use magic until the True Love vial went into the well and she inhaled that book, but that doesn't mean she was right.  Magic has been unpredictable when Emma uses it (which only seems to be because she's still learning) but there's no indication that it ever worked differently for anyone even before Rumpel brought it back en mass.

 

Mainly, I just wish the show would remember and build upon what first got us all hooked in season 1 rather than constantly changing the various motivations and characterizations to suit whatever twist they've dreamed up.

[YaddaYadda]

See, that's not how it should go. The actor should not be acting one way and then surprise!

 

 

This is where the episode the Jolly Roger falls apart for me personally.  While I really liked the episode, Hook feeling that amount of guilt for what he did to Ariel just doesn't hold water anymore imo.  He "kills" Blackbeard who is rescued by Ariel who then finds out where Eric is.  Hook gets the message from Neal (does he even know where that message came from?) to find Emma and he goes on a mission to trade the Jolly Roger back to tada!  The man he had "killed" but who was rescued by the mermaid so that she can find out where her prince was stashed.  So, him trading the ship back to Blackbeard and the amount of guilt he felt is so very manufactured, because Hook is smart, Ariel jumped in right after Blackbeard, so the odds are that she saved his no good behind since she was so determined to find and save Eric.  

 

Oh by wait!  His lips had to be cursed so that Emma could lose her magic and Zelena had spies everywhere including in the LwM where one can turn into the a flying monkey.

 

I feel really bad for Marian's actress, though. It's one thing where these actors are playing their true characters and just don't know a small tidbit from their past. But Marian wasn't even supposed to be Marian during 4A! She was supposed to be Zelena playing Marian. That's a huge acting change. That's Colin-pretending-to-be-Hook-pretending-to-be-Rumple levels of acting. Adam & Eddy should have told Christie this twist straight away during the 3B finale, because now we can't go back and rewatch 4A without thinking, "Umm, that...really doesn't seem like Zelena putting on a front."

 

The Marian plot is the worst thing this show has done and that's saying something.  They didn't have to put Marian on ice during 4A.  I think waiting a whole half season to address that issue was ridiculous.  Yes, I get that we had the whole Frozen thing to go through and frankly, it didn't have to be so long and they didn't need flashbacks about chocolate or didn't have to have a whole Belle episode which led to absolutely nothing or 405 with Regina and Emma fighting against some Samurai monster.  Marian is doing these weird things that are making Robin raise an eye brow as well as Will who knows her pretty well (it would seem).  Why is Marian behaving this way?  Is she going through something because she was imprisoned by Regina?  Did Emma knock her upside the head too hard?  Is this new land she is in so confusing that Marian is acting out in odd ways?  Robin doesn't seem to be able to reconnect with her hard as he tries, he voices his concerns that she seems different, chalks it up as 30 years that have passed since he's seen her, chalks it up as this thing Robin and Regina have.  

 

I didn't miss Regina or Robin during 4A at all, but the story in 4B does not hold.

 

Colin-as-Hook-as-Rumple-or-whatever was a massive creeper.  But here it is, Rumple did that to get his dagger back and to be "closer" to Belle using someone she's come to think of as a friend, so there's your parallel right there.  Zelena using Marian's form to be close to Robin and fuck with Regina's life.

 

I'd like to say that Frozen might have derailed the plans, but the alternative they came up with sucked.

[Dani-Ellie]

See, that's not how it should go. The actor should not be acting one way and then surprise!

 

This can be done well. In Harper's Island, for instance, none of the actors knew who the killer was, including the person playing the killer. The killer was eventually told, oh btw, you're the killer ... while filming episode 8 of 13. A couple of the actors did ask early on if they were the killer but they were all told no, even the person playing the killer. There was obviously some coaching involved after the actor was told so that the audience wouldn't feel cheated when looking back on the episodes before the reveal and so that the audience wouldn't pick up on a change in the performance.The directors and the actor worked closely (and discreetly) to film different takes with subtle differences in performance so that the producers would get what they wanted out of it. It all actually ended up being super creepy because all that sincere stuff that was played beforehand ended up coming across as the mask the character wore to pass in polite society.

 

That said, it takes an experienced group of people to pull something like that off. I have no doubt that this cast is capable of playing things close to the vest like that; it's the other side of the equation that I'm not sure has the experience.

[Mari]

And having Marianzelena awake would have not only added angst and a reason for Robin to flip from "my Marian" to "meh. Marian," it would have given Regina something to do besides pour over the book with Henry and say the same half-dozen lines about the author over and over again.

The "we planned this all season," simply doesn't track.

I think "conceived" means "we're bringing Zelena back next season for something," and the "something" turned out to be saving them from the Robin/Regina backlash in November.

[FurryFury]

This can be done well. In Harper's Island, for instance, none of the actors knew who the killer was, including the person playing the killer.

 

I remember dropping the show after the pilot because I hated the heroine's love interest and the romance I though was inevitable (really not a fan of "childhood friend romance" trope). And then 

I've read somewhere he turned out to not only be the killer, but her half-brother and crazily in love with her.

So I was really sorry that I dropped it because this sounds like something I could enjoy so much, too bad now I'm spoilered.

 

As for A&E not telling the actors anything, I think the reason for that is that most of the time they aren't even sure themselves about their goals and ideas. I'm not convinced Marian twist was planned - it's quite possible it did occur to them at some point but the whole reveal just never solidified until a certain moment. They just stopped trying when it comes to writing, imho.

Edited April 16, 2015 by FurryFury

[Mathius]

Eion Bailey knew he was Pinocchio for instance. It's only more recently that everything is a secret.

Similar to Eion Bailey, Robert Carlyle and Robbie Kay were told straight away what their true relationship was, which is why when you go back to their encounters in 3x04 and 3x06, you can see the signs. I have no idea why they don't do these kinds of things more often in regards to character backstory and identity.

[RadioGirl27]

Similar to Eion Bailey, Robert Carlyle and Robbie Kay were told straight away what their true relationship was, which is why when you go back to their encounters in 3x04 and 3x06, you can see the signs. I have no idea why they don't do these kinds of things more often in regards to character backstory and identity.

This is because this was the plan all along (that August was Pinocchio or that Pan was Rumple's daddy), while the other things (Zelena as Marian being the most prominent one, but not the only one) were not planned, just stuff they pull out from their asses thinking it's bold and audacious, but that it's really ridiculous and contrived.

[Rumsy4]

I'm not convinced Marian twist was planned - it's quite possible it did occur to them at some point but the whole reveal just never solidified until a certain moment.

 

Just like Zelena, who apparently was pointlessly stalking Hook and Emma in the past, and then suddenly solidified into corporeal form and literally poofed Marian (continuity) away.

Edited April 16, 2015 by Rumsy4

[YaddaYadda]

The writers are as moronic as Zelena.  With all the knowledge Zelena had of the future, she could have stayed in the past and messed up everyone's happy endings.  She could have influenced a meeting between Regina and Robin, then killed Robin or his kid.  She could have messed around with Snowing, made a deal with Pan to keep Hook in Neverland, freed Belle and fucked around with Rumple.  She would have been re-writing the story slowly and that would have given everyone a real excuse to chase after the writer as opposed to the one excuse, Regina getting her happy ending written.

 

Ugh!  Headache.

[Shanna Marie]

So, him trading the ship back to Blackbeard and the amount of guilt he felt is so very manufactured, because Hook is smart, Ariel jumped in right after Blackbeard, so the odds are that she saved his no good behind since she was so determined to find and save Eric.

I don't see why they felt the need to make it be Blackbeard he sold the ship to. It's not as though they're ever going to show it, which means I doubt there's more of a story to it. Hook could have sold the ship to anyone, and then Blackbeard could have stolen it and used it to terrorize people, so Ariel felt obligated to go do something about it. It's like they just went with a familiar name because they thought it made it a bigger deal for Hook to have sold it to him, but yeah, he wouldn't have been eaten alive with guilt if he knew Blackbeard was alive.

[stealinghome]

It's also weird because sometimes the writers give the cast future information that...doesn't actually matter? Like I believe either Ginny Goodwin or Josh Dallas said in an interview that A&E told them, at the beginning of filming 3B, that Snowing had cast the second curse because they thought it was important for them (the actors) to know. And I was like...that seems like such a strange piece of information to give given that Snowing sharing a heart/casting the curse changed nothing about the present-day stuff. If it had been an interested subplot--like David sharing Snow's pregnancy cravings or something!--it would have been one thing, but we didn't get any of that. So I was like, what was so important about that knowledge that A&E HAD to tell Goodwin and Dallas? Just seemed weird.

[Curio]

I don't see why they felt the need to make it be Blackbeard he sold the ship to. It's not as though they're ever going to show it, which means I doubt there's more of a story to it. Hook could have sold the ship to anyone, and then Blackbeard could have stolen it and used it to terrorize people, so Ariel felt obligated to go do something about it. It's like they just went with a familiar name because they thought it made it a bigger deal for Hook to have sold it to him, but yeah, he wouldn't have been eaten alive with guilt if he knew Blackbeard was alive.

 

I'm still holding out hope that Ariel just goofed up her wording and that Hook didn't actually directly trade the Jolly Roger to Blackbeard in person. If the writers are completely okay with this whole convoluted Zelena/Marian retcon mess, I'm 100% okay with them retconning Hook trading the Jolly Roger to some other mystery person. Blackbeard could have stolen the ship from that mystery person, and then Hook happened to hear about this through the grapevine from Elsa or Anna, and that's why he didn't flinch or question Ariel when she said he traded it to Blackbeard. He just assumed she was shortening up the story or didn't know he actually traded it to someone else, so he just kept quiet and didn't feel like correcting her. Or his ears still had water in them from being drowned and he didn't hear her say that line. I don't know, I'm holding out hope for anything at this point, but I'm pretty sure the writers are totally over that (potentially really awesome) storyline.

Edited April 16, 2015 by Curio

[Shanna Marie]

Or his ears still had water in them from being drowned and he didn't hear her say that line.

He'd just been knocked on the head and nearly drowned, then barely regained consciousness to find himself being slapped by Ariel, so he was probably still in a "what, huh?" mode and too busy trying to make sense of how he was still alive and how Ariel was there and how his ship got put into a bottle to focus on the details of what Ariel was saying.

 

That's how I'm fanwanking it.

[Souris]

It's also weird because sometimes the writers give the cast future information that...doesn't actually matter? Like I believe either Ginny Goodwin or Josh Dallas said in an interview that A&E told them, at the beginning of filming 3B, that Snowing had cast the second curse because they thought it was important for them (the actors) to know. And I was like...that seems like such a strange piece of information to give given that Snowing sharing a heart/casting the curse changed nothing about the present-day stuff. If it had been an interested subplot--like David sharing Snow's pregnancy cravings or something!--it would have been one thing, but we didn't get any of that. So I was like, what was so important about that knowledge that A&E HAD to tell Goodwin and Dallas? Just seemed weird.

Not to mention the fact that Snowing didn't REMEMBER casting the dark curse, so that's actually a case where it would have been better for them NOT to know.

 

TS, TW.

[jhlipton]

This is almost exactly the same as Elizabeth Mitchell with the Snow Queen. 

 

That makes her performance all the more awesome.  Nothing she did felt out of character, even though she really didn't know her character!

[Shanna Marie]

It seems to me like this Author plot makes even less sense the more we learn about it. So ...

 

• The Authors are just supposed to write down what happens, not change it. This one rogue Author got caught changing something and was punished for it because changing the book is a crime.
• But it's still a good idea for Regina to want to find the Author to get her ending changed.
• People have free will. Evil isn't born, it's made.
• But Emma was potentially evil in the womb. But also potentially a hero. Because of this, Snow and Charming stole a baby and had a ritual conducted to move around all the darkness and light.
• Except Emma growing up light was still dependent on how she was brought up.
• But this is how she became the Savior.
• And she still has the greatest potential for darkness.
• Villains can't have a happy ending without changing the book, no matter how much they change their ways.
• Except for Ursula, who found her happy ending because she and her father were able to reconcile, thanks to Ariel being willing to help even someone who'd wronged her and former villain Hook trying to make amends for his past.
• Regina still deserves a happy ending, even though she's made no amends for her past.
• In spite of what Ursula was able to do, giving villains happy endings requires Emma to go dark.
• Apparently, all villains all along have known about this Author thing and how it could be used to give them what they want, even though they've never said anything until now and most of them have been making great sacrifices or carrying out elaborate schemes to get them what they want -- in spite of it apparently being a known given that they can't win because they're villains.
• And yet it was considered a bold, innovative new idea when Regina pulled it out of thin air to explain why she didn't have everything she wanted.
• And while everyone is basing this on the book and using it as proof that villains don't get happy endings and heroes do, the book shows Regina getting her happy ending (that she's now not happy with). It also shows Marian getting a happy ending -- and she was murdered just before possibly being reunited with her family.
• And then there's the fact that some happy endings are mutually exclusive. If Emma, a hero, gets her happy ending, it means that Hook, a former villain, will get one. Rumple not getting a happy ending because of his villainy meant that Belle, a hero, got an unhappy ending. Regina getting her happy ending with Robin required hero Marian to get an unhappy ending.

 

I don't understaaaaaannnnnddddd.

[Souris]

I hate the Author storyline SO FREAKING MUCH. There is not one good thing about it.

 

I wish we could lock the writers in a room and make them listen to Shanna Marie.

Edited April 16, 2015 by Souris

[Shanna Marie]

I wish we could lock the writers in a room and make them listen to Shanna Marie.

It would be like back in my PR days when I could kill a product just by attempting to write a news release about it. I'd start asking questions about what the product would do that was new/different/better, who would buy it, and how their customers could make money using it. I don't know how many times I'd go to interview an expert so I could write the news release about a product launch, only to later get a "never mind" phone call. So if I were in the writers room, I'd start asking questions about all their ideas, and pretty soon they'd be like, "Damn, there go our season plans." That is, if they'd be willing to listen and weren't blinded by their own perceived brilliance.

 

But Jane Espenson popped up as a person Twitter suggested I follow. I've been experimenting, adding just a few people at a time and then seeing what Twitter suggests based on who follows me and who I'm following, and I'm sticking to professional contacts. I've actually worked indirectly with her on a couple of projects (she was in charge of one, but I worked through someone else -- she saw my work and my name, but we didn't talk directly), so we'll see if she recognizes my name and follows me back. And then the fun shall begin ...

[Dianthus]

Once again late to the convo...back to BtVS (but briefly):

SMG knew about a big plot development a couple of seasons (IIRC) before it happened. OTOH, JM didn't learn of a huge development for his character until they actually shot the scene. He said that if he'd known about the development in advance, he would've played Spike differently. Goes to show you never can tell... 

[Souris]

Which particular developments were those? I watched BtVS but was never in the fandom so don't know all the scuttlebutt.

[amensisterfriend]

So now that we've had a lot (too many?!) episodes, which would you say are your  very favorites? Least favorites? And how would you rank the seasons from best to worst?! 

 

And, while we're at it...which characters/couples were/are your favorites and least favorites?

 

(By the way, am I the only person who adored Wonderland?! Yeah, I'll show myself the door... :)) 

Edited April 17, 2015 by amensisterfriend

[OnceUponAJen]

(By the way, am I the only person who adored Wonderland?! Yeah, I'll show myself the door... :))

Was it Regina who said that Wonderland was annoying while she and Jefferson were there? I pretty much echo that sentiment.

[Souris]

(By the way, am I the only person who adored Wonderland?! Yeah, I'll show myself the door... :)) 

 

It started off kind of Meh, but I was really enjoying it by the end.

[YaddaYadda]

So now that we've had a lot (too many?!) episodes, which would you say are your  very favorites? Least favorites? And how would you rank the seasons from best to worst?! 

 

And, while we're at it...which characters/couples were/are your favorites and least favorites?

 

(By the way, am I the only person who adored Wonderland?! Yeah, I'll show myself the door... :)) 

 

Favorite Characters

Emma and Hook and they're interchangeable depending.  I just love, love, love Emma.  Emma breaks my heart.  And I love how loyal and steadfast and supportive Hook is.

 

Least favorite:

Surprise!  It's not even Regina.  I can take Regina, I can ignore Regina, I roll my eyes at Regina.  Robin, Robin is my least favorite character.  Robin has no personality.  This version of Robin has nothing to do with the Robin stories I grew up with.  

 

Favorite Couple:

Take a wild guess.  If you said Captain Swan, you win!

 

Least Favorite couple:

Rumbelle.  Just no.

 

Favorite episodes (top 10?) in no particular order:

Hat Trick

Snow Falls (which incidentally was written by a writer who wrote a total of 1 episode)

The Crocodile

Tallahassee

Lost Girl

Good Form

Going Home

The two hour season 3 finale

Whiteout

Rocky Road

 

Least Favorite Episodes

Bleeding Through

Lacey

Cricket Games

Almost everything to do with Zelena in Season 3

 

Season 1 was definitely the best.  I don't necessarily wanna knock the other seasons, I think they all had their highlight episodes.  Season 2 the flip flopping of Regina was very jarring.  Season 3, bringing in Zelena and the way everything was handled was pretty horrible.  

[jhlipton]

I'm going to say that my favorite character was Ingrid.  She had a reason for her actions, she owned what she did, and if Shattered Sight had been done right, it would have been awesome.  Hurtful things said, while true, would have taken a long time to recover from (the fact that they were true would make it all the worse).  What's more, she provided a reason that Gerda was afraid of Elsa.

[YaddaYadda]

I'm going to say that my favorite character was Ingrid.  She had a reason for her actions, she owned what she did, and if Shattered Sight had been done right, it would have been awesome.

 

Ingrid was a pretty awesome character and I take back everything I said about Elizabeth Mitchell.  I honestly did not think she could pull it off and was I ever wrong about that!  My issue with a spell like Shattered Sight is that the writers turned it into a joke.  A horrible, horrible joke.  Did Granny use her crossbow on anyone?  Or was she just rushing around with it?  The spell to end all spells, ladies and gentlemen!

 

I will never understand why the writers do what they do.  If there was ever a time for casualties, that was it.  They killed Gus-Gus, they could have killed one of the dwarves, one of the fairies, I don't know...They could have used the spell to have Snow and David really yell at each other instead of rehashing stuff.  

 

Snow: I can't believe I had a baby with you!

David: Well we've had two, but since Emma isn't really what you had signed up for, then I understand why you keep forgetting about her unless you need her for magic.

Me: *faints*

Edited April 17, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[RadioGirl27]

I'm going to say that my favorite character was Ingrid.  She had a reason for her actions, she owned what she did, and if Shattered Sight had been done right, it would have been awesome.  Hurtful things said, while true, would have taken a long time to recover from (the fact that they were true would make it all the worse).  What's more, she provided a reason that Gerda was afraid of Elsa.

Yeah, she was great. She is my favourite non-regular character for sure. Everything about her made sense: her backstory, her actions, her redemption and her sacrifice. And, really, she loved Emma more than Snow ever will. 

Edited April 17, 2015 by RadioGirl27

[Curio]

I'll play along.

 

Favorite Characters
Hook and Emma are my top two by far. Although lately, with Emma being all gung-ho about Operation Dumbass, I have to put Hook ahead of her at the moment.

 

When they actually give Charming a personality, or whenever they let him hang out with Emma or Hook, he's probably my third favorite. I used to love Snow in Season 1, but those days are long gone. I loved Will in the Wonderland series, but he barely gets to do anything now on this show, so I can't really give an opinion about him. I used to really enjoy Rumple in the first two seasons, but now I feel like the writers don't know what to do with him and it might be time to phase him out. Elsa and her friendship with Emma was also a favorite of mine. Pan was a fun little piece of shit.

 

Baelfire/Neal.

Least Favorite Characters
Regina. And it's not even close at this point -- my blood just boils when she's on screen. Breaking Glass was my final straw I think. It didn't used to be this way, either. Before Season 4, I actually tolerated her and thought she had some witty lines here and there. I even used to read the forums over at TWoP and think, "Wow, you guys really don't like Regina. Is it necessary to keep nicknaming her 'Woegina?'" But now it's like, "Holy crap. I see it now." I'm just completely and utterly over the character. I don't feel any sympathy or empathy for her. I despise her stupid mission to change the book instead of owning up to the fact that this might be bad karma and she should make changes in her life without taking shortcuts or blaming other people. I hate how useless her flashback episodes are now and how we know way too much about her past. (Maybe lay off the ribbon tantrums and village massacres, okay writers?) I abhor how some of her biggest misdeeds are brushed under the rug and never talked about on screen, even though there were plenty of opportunities to discuss that she was the one who tortured Marian, or the Graham situation could have been brought up in Breaking Glass when Regina was yelling at Emma for ruining her new romance. I don't understand why I'm supposed to feel sorry for her when she has a son who truly (as in True Love's Kiss™ verified) loves her, has former victims bending over backwards to be her best friends, lives in a huge mansion, drives a vintage Mercedes, wears an expensive wardrobe both in Storybrooke and also got to wear lavish, jewel-embedded gowns in the Enchanted Forest, is one of the most powerful magic practitioners in all the lands, doesn't seem to pay the price of using magic anymore, and still has her cushy job as town mayor where apparently she doesn't have to do shit and can just work on Operation Mongoose all the time. I'm just done.

 

Um. Sorry. That wasn't supposed to turn into a rant. Moving on.

 

Henry. Please, just go to a boarding school and never return. Zelena and her annoying scenery-chewing can also go away forever. I'm not a huge August fan, so hopefully everyone just forgets about him now that he's back to being an adult. I used to not like Belle prior to the 4A finale because the writers made her character pretty useless, but after she finally wised up and sent Rumple over the town line, she's navigated over to my good-character list. Let's see, who else? I don't like Maleficent and think she's a waste of villain space. Ursula was rather pointless, too. Cruella can stay, though.

 

Neal. (Yes, he's purposely included on both my favorite and least favorite lists. Some episodes he was interesting - especially when he was Baelfire - and some episodes I wanted to punch him in the face.)

 

Favorite Couple
Hook and Emma will be the death of me. But I miss them going on adventures together. Don't get me wrong, it's super adorable how comfortable they are with PDA and stuff, but I just want to see them go on a swashbuckling adventure together! Give me more Season 3 finale, please!

 

I also adored Snow and Charming in Season 1 and they were my primary motivation for finishing that season. But now they're stuck in Dullsville and they don't really do much for me lately. I still think they're cute together, but they aren't the reason I watch the show anymore.

Least Favorite Couple
Robin and Regina. I'm just completely apathetic about their "epic" love story. Hell, Maleficent and young Regina had more chemistry. Also, Will and Belle just confuse me. I want Ana back. I used to not like Rumple and Belle when she was clueless about everything, but they actually intrigue me now in a dysfunctional kind of messed up way. I don't want to see them get back together, but I'm interested in seeing them reunite. Which is more than I can say for Robin and Regina.

Favorite Episodes
Pilot

Snow Falls

Hat Trick

A Land Without Magic

The Crocodile

Tallahassee

Manhattan

Good Form

New York City Serenade

The Jolly Roger

Snow Drifts

There's No Place Like Home

White Out

Rocky Road

The Apprentice

Poor Unfortunate Soul

(I think you can sense a trend here, yes?)

 

Least Favorite Episodes
Any random episode about a useless character, like: That Still Small Voice; Tiny; Selfless, Brave, and True; The Tower; any Zelena flashback episode; Heart of Gold; etc.

Bleeding Through
Breaking Glass

The ending to Heroes and Villains

Darkness at the Edge of Town

Unforgiven

Enter the Dragon

Best Laid Plans

(Wow, I really do not like 4B...)

 

I think on the whole, it's shaping up that Season 3 might be my overall favorite. I don't think these final episodes of 4B will be strong enough to wash the bad taste of the author plot out of my mouth.

Edited April 17, 2015 by Curio

[KingOfHearts]

If you need a thought-out opinion, I'm the one to go to. ;)

 

Favorite Characters

Regina has always been my favorite, but as of recently I haven't found her as enjoyable. I like Emma, Rumple and Belle equally after that. 

 

Least Favorite Characters

Henry. He is the one character I want to die quickly without anyone missing him. He's patronizing, stupid and seriously disturbed. I can't stand watching any of his scenes and anything that comes out of his mouth. I tolerated him in S1, but now he's an annoying Wesley Crusher type. Snow and Charming follow after him. They're bland, self-righteous and two-dimensional. Regina may be worse in the selfishness department, but you would expect more from the Heroest Heroes to Ever Hero. They don't stray from their normal attitudes much at all. I didn't care for Neal either because of his blandness, but I'm sad they never used his character to its full potential.

 

Favorite Couple

Right now it's Emma/Hook. That being said, I'm not a big shipper.

 

Least Favorite Couple

Outlaw Queen. Need I say more?

 

Favorite Episodes

Pilot

Heart of Darkness

The Stable Boy

Hat Trick

An Apple Red as Blood

A Land Without Magic

We Are Both

Queen of Hearts

The Miller's Daughter

Going Home

Witch Hunt

Rocky Road

Darkness On The Edge of Town

 

Least Favorite Episodes

(This could take a while...)

Dreamy

The Stranger

The Cricket Game

Manhattan

Selfless, Brave and True

Nasty Habits

The New Neverland

Quiet Minds

Bleeding Through

Breaking Glass

The Snow Queen

Smash the Mirror

Heroes and Villains

Enter the Dragon

Best Laid Plans

[amensisterfriend]

I also adored Snow and Charming in Season 1 and they were my primary motivation for finishing that season. But now they're stuck in Dullsville and they don't really do much for me lately.

 

I really liked them through most of S1 as well, but ever since then they've mostly bored me and/or annoyed me. 

 

I just looked through the episode titles and descriptions, and I think this is the only show EVER where my very favorite episode was the Pilot. It's kind of sad that for me the show peaked in its very first episode and was mostly downhill from there, albeit with a handful of glorious exceptions :) 

[Curio]

I just looked through the episode titles and descriptions, and I think this is the only show EVER where my very favorite episode was the Pilot. It's kind of sad that for me the show peaked in its very first episode and was mostly downhill from there, albeit with a handful of glorious exceptions

 

That kind of aptly describes Adam & Eddy for you, though. They came up with a really cool concept and it shows in the Pilot. But even though most pilot episodes are usually not the best in a TV series because the actors are still trying to fit into the roles and it's mostly exposition, this one is the exception because all of Once's complicated storylines and retcons hadn't been built up to fall down yet. It's also clear they had a much bigger budget for that episode.

Edited April 17, 2015 by Curio

[Zuleikha]

Favorite Characters
Regina. I'm sure you're all shocked. :) After Regina, Hook is probably the character I enjoy the most. I'm a sucker for a tortured redemption story.

Least Favorite Characters
In s1, this was Henry by a landslide, but I've grown to like him and what his character adds to the show. So I don't exactly have any characters I actively dislike right now. More characters that I'm meh on or think are being written under their potential.

 

However, I'm ready for Rumple to exit the show. Rumplestiltskin has been a great character and Carlyle's been amazing at portraying him, but his story is just done. I think the arc-building is getting dragged down trying to include story for Rumple on the show.

Favorite Couple
Emma/Hook, no contest. I feel like at this point, they're the only enjoyable couple on the show. I do have a soft spot for my sadly ended and mostly imagined Cruella/Ursula femslash pairing (which shall always be Sea Bitch to me, even if general fandom settled on Sea Devil). 

Least Favorite Couple
Prior to Heart of Gold, it was Snowing because I've given hope on them and I was still holding out hope for Robin/Regina but now it's Outlaw Queen because after the debacle of 4A, the writers freaking undid the one teeny-tiny bright spot (Robin proving the strength of his love for Regina) by having Robin choose Marian. I think Outlaw Queen unites Regina fans and Regina detractors alike in that we all want something different for her love story. I'll just be distracting myself during Outlaw Queen scenes writing AU fanfic in which Regina's pixie dust love was the Tin Man.

 

Also, I'm coming to a strange place of acceptance with Snowing, where I'm starting to enjoy how they enable each other's worst tendencies.

 

But if the writers reunite Rumpbelle, they will once again shoot to the top of my least favorite couples list. 

Favorite Episodes

Eek, I need Wikipedia for episode titles and I'm not willing to do that. So in no particular order and based in part on which ones I can remember by title:

 

The Stable Boy

Heart is a Lonely Hunter

S1 finale episodes

S2 premiere episode (A Land Without Magic?)

The Miller's Daughter

Manhattan (that's the one where Rumple/Emma/Henry find Neal, right?)

Echo Cave episode

Welcome to Storybrooke

Going Home

The Fall

 

Least Favorite Episodes

Heroes and Villains

Smash the Mirror (such wasted potential!)

Bleeding Through

that Johanna episode in s2

all of s2 post-The Miller's Daughter and before the finale

[YaddaYadda]

(I think you can sense a trend here, yes?)

 

No clue what you're talking about.  I have to say that for me, Poor Unfortunate Soul is shaping up to be the best episode of the second half.

[Rumsy4]

Favorite Characters
Hook and Emma, with Hook slightly edging Emma out. Rumple used to be another favorite, but I don't enjoy watching him on-screen that much anymore. Not sure whether it is because of the repetitive villain monologues they are giving him these days, or because Carlyle is not bringing it as he used to. I liked Red, but she's barely on-screen to qualify anymore. I do like Charming, though I don't like the David Nolan side he's been displaying this half-season.

Least Favorite Characters

Robin--can't stand him.

Regina--I used to enjoy watching her in S1 and most of S2, but I heartily dislike the show endorsing her self-pitying and victim-blaming side, and am beyond sick of Evil Queen flashbacks.

Henry--that kid is annoying, dull, and plain weird.

Snow--I used to love her in S1, but they've slowly stripped her of all personality to the point where she doesn't seem like a real character anymore. Sad.

Neal--Oh, how I loved Baelfire! Sad he turned into Douchefire. 

I used to dislike Belle, but I've completely turned around on that now. 

 

Favorite Couple

Captain Swan--seriously the only reason I'm watching right now.

 

Least Favorite Couple

Outlaw Queen--it's worse than SwanFire, which I used to dislike intensely.

 

Favorite Episodes
Snow Falls

The Heart Is a Lonely Hunter

Hat Trick

Tallahassee

Manhattan

And Straight On Till Morning (the flashback)
Good Form

Going Home

New York City Serenade

The Jolly Roger

Snow Drifts

There's No Place Like Home

White Out (Present day stuff)
Poor Unfortunate Soul

 

Least Favorite Episodes
Dreamy

Child of the Moon

Tiny

The Cricket Game

Selfless, Brave and True

The Evil Queen

The New Neverland

Bleeding Through

A Curious Thing

Kansas

Breaking Glass

Heroes and Villains

Unforgiven

Best Laid Plans

Heart of Gold

 

Favorite Season

S1, closely followed by S3A.

 

Least Favorite Season

S3B, S2. The jury is out on 4B. It's shaping up to be my least favorite season.

Edited April 17, 2015 by Rumsy4

[Delphi]

Favourite Characters:

It used to be Snow, I loved every single thing about Snow. She hit Charming with that rock and I fell in love. If they'd fix her character it would still be her.

I also adore Red. And I miss her more than words can express.

Rumple/Gold. Without question I love Rumple he is by far the most interesting character for me. Especially in seasons one and two, a lot of that is due to Robert before he became a mustache twirling villain. He's amazing. There's this small scene in season one where Emma comes to the pawn shop and is like "Gold, are you her" And ever so quiet and snarky he responds from the back, "Well it is my shop" I rewatch that scene all the time.

I also love Belle but don't think the writers have any idea what their doing with her.

Least favorite character:

Neal, don't get me wrong, I loved Bae but Neal never worked for me. He was interesting until they got to Storybrooke and then I stopped caring.

Zelena, I get it she's crazy, she's green with envy. I don't care. Go away.

Favourite couple:

Rumbelle, it's just so messed up and dysfunctional. Love it.

Snowing. Too cute for words.

Least favorite couple:

Scarlet Beauty because I just don't understand any of it.

Snowing. Because I have no idea how the writers made Snow White and the Prince so unlikable and confusing. What are they even doing anymore?

Favourite episodes:

Snow Falls

Skin Deep

7:15am

Hat Trick

A Land without magic

Broken

The Crocodile

The Outsider

Manhattan

Going Home

Least favorite:

Bleeding through

The Tower

Kansas

Heroes and Villains

Dreamy, Tiny, etc..

The new Neverland

Eta: nice name, amensisterfriend I just watched the gg episode last night.

Edited April 17, 2015 by Delphi

[HoodlumSheep]

(By the way, am I the only person who adored Wonderland?! Yeah, I'll show myself the door... :))

No you are not! I loved Wonderland! I'll defend it 'til my dying breath and beyond the grave if I must.

The Wonderland characters are my precious cupcake children. They are too good for this world.

I'll play along too! Also, I'm throwing Wonderland into the mix! None of my answers are in order!

Favorite episodes (I'll limit myself to 10):

Snow Drifts/There's no place like home**

Tallahassee

The Miller's Daughter**

The Apprentice

Good Form

Heart of Stone

Bad Blood

Home

Heart of the Matter**

And they lived...**

**these are probably in my top five. The last episode to round out my top five is up in the air though. I'd have to seriously think about it for a while, and watch the episodes again! The last 5 I listed are from Wonderland. "And they lived..." made me legitamently weep, and I'm not afraid of admitting it. It was the epitome of "happily ever after" type endings. My Wonderland bbys had gone through so much. Also this and the 3b finale are what keep me holding out hope for A&E. they can write some pretty good stuff if they put in the right amount of effort.

Also, to those who watched Wonderland, I liked how it seemed to parallel Once, somewhat. Like "home" vs "Going home" were the winter finales.

And this is why I think the last episode of Once will be titled "Happily Ever After," because it would complete the saying, "And they lived happily ever after." Those are just some of my thoughts.

Anyways...

Least favorite episodes:

Breaking Glass

Heroes and Villains

Smash the Mirror Parts 1&2 (pacing was my main issue, closely followed by the OQ bits)

Bleeding Through

Kansas

A Curious Thing

Quiet Minds

Welcome to Storybrooke

Selfless, Brave and True

Child of the Moon

Favorite Characters:

Emma

Killy

Charming

Ingrid

Peter Pan

Cora

Jafar

Cyrus

Anastasia

Will (wonderland, not how he's portrayed in Once)

Nice Tweedle

Elsa

Blackbeard

Jabberwocky

Smee

Amara

Felix

Cruella

Young! Baelfire

Least favorite characters:

White Rabbit

Regina

Henry

Neal

Alice's Step-mom

I don't think I really have a problem with too many of the characters.

Couples (assuming that they are or have been canon at some point):

Captain Swan

Scarlet Queen

Cylice

Snowing

Frankenwolf (even though they aren't canon)

Rumple x Cora (while they weren't each other's true loves, i do think they were soul mates--very twisted, but soul mates all the same.

Least favorite:

Scarlet Beauty

Swan Thief

Seasons:

Season 1

3a

Wonderland

4a

Season 2

3b

4b

Edited April 17, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[amensisterfriend]

No you are not! I loved Wonderland! I'll defend it 'til my dying breath and beyond the grave if I must.

The Wonderland characters are my precious cupcake children. They are too good for this world.

 

Ha---I know, right?! And they weren't on our screens quite long enough for the writers to ruin them like they do pretty much everyone else! :) I still keep hopefully checking Amazon for a Wonderland DVD that I know will never actually exist. 

[Shanna Marie]

By the way, am I the only person who adored Wonderland?!

No! It did start strangely, but by the end I was hooked. However, I may be the only person who also adored Cyrus. He was pretty boring just being the perfect man in flashbacks, but he got really, really interesting once he escaped and when they showed his history. The way to make me end up loving a character is to start out making me not really like him, then gradually change my mind by showing him doing interesting things, and that was the way the entire cast of Wonderland worked for me. About the only one I really liked to start with was Alice (I was even so-so on Will because I thought he was the generic Leather-Clad-Bad-Boy-With-A-Heart-Of-Gold), and by the end I loved them all.

 

As for the Mothership:

Favorite Characters: At the moment, Hook would have to be my favorite. There's so much they're doing right with him. He's a villain who turned himself around. He hasn't really had cheerleaders, he doesn't have people proclaiming him a hero for the first time he didn't do a bad thing, no one is rushing around to coddle him so he doesn't go bad again. He knows he screwed up. He knows where he went wrong. He feels bad about it. He's trying to do better but still sometimes screws up because he's got a lot of negative habits to overcome. He doesn't feel like he deserves a reward. He doesn't consider himself a hero. He's trying to atone. Somehow every other character gets better in scenes with him. I don't know if it's something about Colin that brings out the best in the others or if the voice of the character is so strong that it becomes easy to write him and his interactions with others, but even a boring character can become interesting in a scene with Hook.

 

I also love Emma, but right now she's getting all caught up in Regina's drama and is too often used by the writers to prop up Regina. There's a lot of good potential with the character, and JMo acts the hell out of it, but I don't think the writers know what to do with her and don't really care.

 

Least Favorite Character

Can I say "the writers"? Because every one I think about, there's potential there and a lot to like (even if it's in the "like to hate" way), but it's been mishandled so badly. If you put Regina in a vacuum, away from the context of the way she's regarded in this show, she's a rather fascinating look at a histrionic narcissist. Everything about her is totally in-character, including her victim complex. She's the kind of person who can slaughter a village and feel wronged because people hate her afterward. She can have lived the kind of life she's lived and feel like something's wrong with the way the universe works if she doesn't get everything she wants. This has the potential to be fascinating. This only becomes a problem that makes me annoyed with her when the show itself and all the other characters actually take her viewpoint and believe she's right. Unfortunately, the way she's written in the context of the show, she's the anti-Hook. She doesn't really think she was wrong. She knows she's done things that other people have a problem with and that are objectively considered to have been bad, but we haven't had much sign that she acknowledges that she shouldn't have done them. She's shown no sign of remorse. She gets hailed as a hero the moment she chooses not to do a bad thing, and gets credit and support for every good thing she's done. And somehow, she ruins every character who interacts with her. In order to make Regina look better, Snow has lost all her sass and spirit, David has become a doormat, Henry has become some bizarre automaton, and even Emma has become a ghost of herself. They've all lost their damn minds when it comes to how they deal with Regina.

 

I guess the character I really dislike on his own would have to be Robin, but even that comes from the Regina black hole. Then again, this is the man who was willing to let his four-year-old be used as bait, so he sucked even before we saw the pixie dust.

 

There's been some good stuff with Rumple, but I think the character has run his course and he just needs to die of his black heart before he gets ruined.

 

Favorite episodes might be the pilot and the season 3 finale "movie." But there are very few episodes I love start to finish. I have scenes I like, and some of my favorite scenes are buried in least-favorite episodes.

 

I suspect that my least-favorite is yet to come, given the track record. This last one may be a least favorite because it actually makes earlier episodes retroactively worse.

[HoodlumSheep]

Shanna Marie, I liked Cyrus too! He wasn't my absolute favorite (Ana FTW), but he was my favorite male character. He had a certain wisdom, he was competent (he didn't need Alice to help him escape). Cylice reminded me of Snowing. The wishbone scene in particular (and his accompanying monologue) was one of my favorites.

I get what you mean about liking only specific moments, and that's why I ranked 4a above season 2 ultimately. When looking back, I realized season 2 was pretty average in my view. The only things that stood out to me in that season was Cora, Hook, and the whole ominous Neverland ending. While 4a had it's ups and downs (that ending...), I felt like it had more moments I enjoyed overall. Which is surprising, because I don't really like Frozen (it was average!)

I feel like I could debate with myself about season 2 vs. 4a, but I'll stop myself.

Edited April 17, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[jhlipton]

Pan was a fun little piece of shit.

Wasn't he just.  The actor was amazing -- he played Henry better than Henry did!

 

Yeah, she was great. She is my favourite non-regular character for sure. Everything about her made sense: her backstory, her actions, her redemption and her sacrifice. And, really, she loved Emma more than Snow ever will.

 

Even though she wanted to keep Emma with her for the magic, she loved her for herself as well, as the anti-bullying scene showed.

 

=============================================================

 

As far as Wonderland is concerned, I was more or less fine until A&E murdered The Lizard (using some pretty bull-s**t "logic") for no good reason.  Meanwhile, Jafar can order the scariest creature in all of Wonderland around without batting an eye.  By the time the end came, I was only watching because there were so few episodes to get through.

Edited April 17, 2015 by jhlipton