S07.E07: The Dragon And The Wolf

[Oscirus]

1 hour ago, Calamity Jane said:

No doubt Robb's choices factored in, but I think Tywin seized an opportunity to break the north and the Tullys, and I think we'll never know if Bolton would have, ahem, bolted without the temptation of being made Warden in the North.  

Fair enough. Figuring out whether his greed or his disillusionment was the bigger factor in his betrayal is ultimately a chicken or egg type thing and dependent upon the person watching. However, I think it's ultimately academic as I don't see Cersei even having the connections to pull off something like the red wedding. 

1 hour ago, doram said:

Heck, the Night's Watch turned against Jon all on their own. No external instigator required.

Night's watch turned against Jon because he insisted upon aligning the watch with their mortal enemies  without outlining the benefits of said alliance to them. Similar to what's likely going to happen here.  You figured he'd have learned his lesson after his first murder.

1 hour ago, doram said:

The idea that the North will forever sit in a circle and hold hands and sing kumbaya in perpetuity is ridiculous. Jon can't have 100% approval rating 100% of the time. What he can do is contain the external enemies that can - and have - exploited the weak links in the figurative chain.

If anything this action will make said links more exploitable. Especially if anybody hears that Jon could've gotten Dany's help without giving up their independence or even if someone figures out that Jon is sleeping with Dany and decides to play connect the dots..

[Dev F]

39 minutes ago, doram said:

Seriously, this is what should have happened and it would have been brilliant. I've always felt that Sansa's story was textbook Start of Villainy and if the show wasn't ready to make her full-on evil, they should have showed her being legitimately tempted by it.

One specific possibility that just occurred to me: If the writers were going to kill off Roose Bolton anyway, instead of having Ramsay do it perfunctorily at the beginning of season 6, why not make it part of the Sansa/Ramsay storyline in season 5? Let's say Sansa, determined not to be a victim again, thinks she can use her psychopath of a husband to get revenge on the people who've wronged her family. At first she just enjoys watching Ramsay torment Theon -- after all, what could possibly be too cruel for a person who killed innocent children? Then, as she discovers how fraught the relationship is between Ramsay and Roose, she realizes that it gives her an opportunity to take out the man who murdered her father. She stokes her husband's resentment against Roose, and ultimately manipulates him into murdering his dad . . .

But she realizes too late that she's also talked him into murdering Walda and her infant son.

That would give her a horrifying reason to recoil in horror from what she's become -- and also give her some sympathy for how Theon ended up stumbling into child-murder. And you could end the season in pretty much the same place, with Sansa redeeming herself by helping Theon to escape Winterfell.

And it would give Littlefinger a hell of a story to dump on Arya in season 7 -- that her sister wanted to be the Lady of Winterfell so badly that she conspired to murder a baby.

Edited September 4, 2017 by Dev F

[rmontro]

On 9/3/2017 at 0:11 AM, ulkis said:

I wouldn't be surprised if her pregnancy were magically accellerated somehow. "You're gonna give birth in a week because that's a side effect of the wall crumbling!"

I don't really expect that, but wasn't her first pregnancy accelerated?  

21 hours ago, skiracing12 said:

Personally, I can't see Jon or Dany dying at any point. 

I hope you are correct.  Maybe the "bittersweet" ending will be the death of the dragons, and the end of magic in Westeros.

21 hours ago, skiracing12 said:

Personally, I can't see Jon or Dany dying at any point.

Given that, it's a little surprising that Dany came to apparently love Drogo so much, considering how the production has taken pride in its feminist leanings.  I guess that was early on though, and follows the book, so there wasn't much to be done.  Someone here said that in the original version of the story, Dany killed Drogo.

[ShellsandCheese]

6 hours ago, Oscirus said:

The more I think about it, the more I realize that Jon's a dumbass who committed the North to a war that he didn't have to.  If I was a Northerner, I'd be pissed right now. He went down there to get help and dragon glass,  came back giving up their independence when he didn't even have to.

Not exactly. It was a quid pro quo. Right now The North needs Dany more than she needs The North. They need her armies,  her dragons, and the dragonglass that sits under Dragonstone. In exchange for all that, Jon agreed that the North would back Dany’s claim to the throne over Cersei’s. The North definitely got the better end of that deal. 

The North is already unprepared to fight the Night King and his army, Jon had it right in 7/2, they need powerful allies. And assuming they defeat the Night King, Dany’s army and dragons are going to be doing most of fighting / be on the frontlines. 

Jon didn’t give up their independence, they’ve already lost it. Jon is smart enough to recognize though that it’s Dany not Cersei who would be okay with the North having independence - she just wants them to acknowledge her as queen. Cersei on the other hand wants complete, total, and full submission. There’s a difference. 

Edited September 4, 2017 by ShellsandCheese

[Shimmergloom]

On 9/2/2017 at 3:00 PM, GraceK said:

Also, if Sansa had worked with Jon and told him about those soldiers, many of Jons forces might have not died.

So if Jon knew the Vale was on the way, he would not have ridden out to try and save Rickon?

[Oscirus]

I tend to believe that Sansa's  turn into murderer was supposed to happen this episode. I believe that was supposed to be her final lesson from Littlefinger. However, last season they decided to go for a crowd pleasing moment with Sansa killing Ramsay so ultimately it changed the story around quite a bit. 

[Shimmergloom]

10 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

3) The first thing that Sansa said when Arya surprised her in her room was "I have hundreds of men here in Winterfell, all loyal to me". Exact quote. Not something you say to someone you trust. Something defensive to say to someone you're afraid of (and desperate because Sansa just said to LF that no loyalty should be expected from the lords). Moreover Arya had only threatened her with showing her old letter to the Northern Lords so far. Why would Sansa be afraid of Arya then  if she trusted her?

Sansa had just found a bag full of skinned faces.  I think Sansa was justified in being afraid at that point. It was no longer just Arya threatening to show the Northern Lords the old letter. 

[anamika]

I am not sure I understand this sudden obsession with Northern independence. The Starks ruled as wardens of the North under the Targaryens for almost 300 years. They supported the Targs in everything (until Aerys II), took sides in civil wars, acted as advisers and commanders for them.  Ned continued to be warden of the North under Robert Baratheon. By all accounts, the Northerners were happy with their situation in life. It was only the Lannisters first imprisoning Ned and later killing him that led to the North proclaiming Robb as KITN and demanding independence.

Dany herself says that she is not coming to conquer the North, only to save it. She is lending her dragons and her forces to save the first place under attack. She has allowed Jon to mine for weapons. The least thing Jon could do in return is to bend the knee and pledge to help her in return.

Master strategist LF himself talks about how Jon/Dany makes sense and how together they would be hard to defeat.

16 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

Look, this is so annoying because I don't even like Sansa. I think her keeping the intel about the Vale army was shady af and I wish the show had simply made her turn villain from her paranoia than have the two of them (Jon & Sansa) hand wave that with a hug and kiss. But that's not the point here.  D & D did some seriously shady hand-waving to make Jon Snow King in the North despite her sitting right there next to him and that is not something I can pretend not to notice as much as I dislike her. I have no problem with Jon being crowned King in the North. But there was a logical way to do it - Robb's will, legitimising Jon and dis-inheriting Sansa - and not this stupid nonsense where a woman wins the Crown three times over (by conquest, by inheritance - twice) and is discredited because she doesn't have a penis.

It's best not to think too much about this whole plot. It's nonsensical from start to finish and it ends with Jon being a moron who ridiculously charges the Boltons so that the other moron Sansa, who does not inform him about Vale army for some reason, can come to the rescue and save the day.  So that she can be bitter about the opportunistic, useless Northern lords making reckless Jon, who lost the battle, king over her for some incomprehensible reason which they regret 2 episodes later because she told a soldier how to fit armor with leather and Royce suddenly remembers that his army rode for her and not Jon.

The problem with the entire Northern plot on the show is that they are trying to fit Sansa in there and make it revolve around her, when it's an entirely different ballgame in the books. We have Stannis marching on WF, Jon wanting to march south with his wildlings, some Northerners hanging around in Greywater watch with Robb's will, Manderly with Rickon, the mountain clans marching for Arya, Theon/Asha stuck with Stannis, Mance and his spearwives,  Jeyne on her way to the wall - it's a mix of intrigue, political machinations, game playing, backstabbing, hardy, loyal Northern bad-asses, Frey pies - the North plot in the books was the absolute best and the show just massacred it and took a big dump on it's corpse.

5 hours ago, Dev F said:

 Like, if one of the most important character beats of season 7 is going to be that Littlefinger stokes suspicion between Sansa and Arya based on Sansa's past actions, wouldn't it have been helpful if the writers had spent the previous couple seasons having Sansa actually commit questionable acts, so they wouldn't have to reach all the way back to season 1 for some weaksauce betrayal?

But Sansa's actual Winterfell arc was not remotely about her doing morally questionable things, and neither was her arc last year. Which suggests to me that the showrunners had no idea that it would be such a major point this season, so when the time came they had to scramble and make do with "Cersei forced Sansa to write a bad letter one time."

They don't even have to make these things up. GRRM has given them the material and all they have to do is write that into the show so that Sansa can commit questionable acts. Like I said, Sansa actually betrays her family to Cersei by telling her Ned's plans to get the girls out of KL. This is what leads to Sansa herself getting trapped in KL, Arya having to escape and go on the run and Jeyne being condemned to a life of rape and torture under LF. Ned is forced to confess to save Sansa's life. Later, in the Vale, Sansa is colluding with LF in the slow poisoning of Sweetrobin so that Harry will get the Vale and she can marry him. Book Sansa is still snobby and has class preferences. Book Sansa thinks LF knows best and is following his guidance. Book Sansa knows nothing about how the North or how Northern politics works. Book Sansa's sole accomplishment after 5 books is getting sweetrobin to eat his dinner. 

So it's not that the showrunners don't know that Sansa needs to do questionable acts - if they read the books they would know that she does. It's more that they don't want to write Sansa as doing questionable acts - that was my point. That's why even though the leaked script outlines mentions how Sansa wants to rule instead of Jon, is concerned about Brienne swearing to Arya, is disappointed that Bran being back means he is now Lord of Winterfell, is tempted when the Northern Lords want to make her queen and why even though the showrunners and actors talk about Sansa not being happy that Jon is king and Sansa was seriously considering having Jon deposed and Arya killed - none of that actually makes it to the screen. And that's why Arya comes across as a psycho fool because she has no legitimate beef with Sansa on the show.

Edited September 4, 2017 by anamika

[patchwork]

I expect both Dany and Jon to die heroic deaths in the end, along with the dragons and Ghost. Leaving the less extraordinary people to carry on and try to live up to their example. 

This is where Dany and Jon's lack of future proofing is really going mess things up. What does "break the wheel" even mean? If Dany has a plan for this I don't think she's shared it with anyone. Jon is all about making new alliances even with old enemies but Show!Jon at least doesn't do anything to make it work other than giving speeches. 

I can see the Seven Kingdoms breaking up and the Dothraki and Wildlings becoming a real problem.

[Macbeth]

5 hours ago, patchwork said:

I can see the Seven Kingdoms breaking up and the Dothraki and Wildlings becoming a real problem.

Should the Dothraki survive - I think they will get the f*** out of Dodge afterwards.  None of them have seen snow before.  Fighting corpses in frigid weather will not endear them to Westeros.

Regarding the Wildlings - I am not sure how many are left after the destruction of Eastwatch.  Not many were saved from Hardhome, and those in fighting shape went to Eastwatch.  And those not in fighting shape I believe were in the lands the Northeners had abandoned after so many Wildling attacks.   That would be the lands the Wights will be marching through first.

[SeanC]

7 hours ago, anamika said:

Dany herself says that she is not coming to conquer the North, only to save it.

She says that after Jon has already bent the knee.  There's no need for her to conquer the North at that point; she already owns it.

Quote

She is lending her dragons and her forces to save the first place under attack. She has allowed Jon to mine for weapons. The least thing Jon could do in return is to bend the knee and pledge to help her in return.

No, the least he could do is accept Dany's alliance.  She wasn't even asking him to bend the knee at that point.

I don't personally have a problem with the North being part of the Seven Kingdoms and find the preoccupation with Northern independence on many people's parts a bit odd (it's part and parcel of a certain idea that the North is a superior place to the rest of Westeros, which isn't true in the books and certainly isn't true in the show), but on the show Jon undeniably gave away the North's independence without consulting anybody in the North and for no reason at all.

Quote

Book Sansa's sole accomplishment after 5 books is getting sweetrobin to eat his dinner. 

That's pretty silly hyperbole.  Book Sansa actually did stuff in King's Landing, and is shown learning stuff in the Vale (her cottoning onto Littlefinger's scheme with Lyn Corbray is more sophisticated than anything her show counterpart has done to date, despite supposedly being much further along in her development).

Edited September 4, 2017 by SeanC

[GraceK]

8 hours ago, Shimmergloom said:

So if Jon knew the Vale was on the way, he would not have ridden out to try and save Rickon?

What? I didn't say anything about Rickon.  of course he would have ridden out to save him , that's who Jon is. I'm talking about his FORCES. If he was aware that they had more soldiers, they could have planned differently or the battle could have ended sooner. 

Edited September 4, 2017 by GraceK
Made a mistake about events

[anamika]

48 minutes ago, SeanC said:

She says that after Jon has already bent the knee.  There's no need for her to conquer the North at that point; she already owns it.

Yes? And that's pretty much my point...She is going North to save it.

48 minutes ago, SeanC said:

No, the least he could do is accept Dany's alliance.  She wasn't even asking him to bend the knee at that point.

At that point she has already lost one of her dragons and is pledging to further help him with her other dragons and men. And in return he will take her help, continue to be KITN and fight against her after they defeat the WW?  That's terribly unfair for Dany. What is she getting for her help? Enmity from the North?

Makes sense that after she pledges her help, he bends the knee and agrees that the North will part of her kingdoms. So yes,  when the survival of the North is at stake, bending the knee is the least he could do.

Are you forgetting that they have to still settle things after the WW are defeated which was the whole point of their meeting with Cersei. Where even Cersei wanted neutrality from the North after the WW war. How would that be fair to Dany that she help the North, possibly losing men and dragons in the endeavor and then leave her to face Cersei without allies?

48 minutes ago, SeanC said:

That's pretty silly hyperbole.  Book Sansa actually did stuff in King's Landing, and is shown learning stuff in the Vale (her cottoning onto Littlefinger's scheme with Lyn Corbray is more sophisticated than anything her show counterpart has done to date, despite supposedly being much further along in her development).

No hyperbole at all. Book Sansa has done nothing of any consequence thus far in 5 books - that one time with LF leading her by the nose, she figures out that Lyn Corbray was LF's man. And that's about it. Oh right, there was that time she lied about Marillion to save LF and herself from Vale Lords. Compared to her siblings, she's barely even started to learn playing the game.

Edited September 4, 2017 by anamika

[Blonde Gator]

39 minutes ago, SeanC said:

I don't personally have a problem with the North being part of the Seven Kingdoms and find the preoccupation with Northern independence on many people's parts a bit odd (it's part and parcel of a certain idea that the North is a superior place to the rest of Westeros, which isn't true in the books and certainly isn't true in the show), but on the show Jon undeniably gave away the North's independence without consulting anybody in the North and for no reason at all.

 

 

Really?  I'd say an army of 100,000 dead, and an unknown quantity of WW's staring you in the face, when you only have "7,000 men or less" (Davos : "Fewer"), would constitute a GREAT reason, particularly in light of the fact that Dany had 3 gigantic flame flying flame throwers, one one of two known methods to kill the wights.  Secondly, Daenerys was sitting on a mountain of dragonglass, which is the 2nd known weapon to dispatch the wights.  Third, she has a standing army of 8,000 Unsullied, and an unknown quantity of magnificently mounted cavalry....the Dothraki Screamers (as Jaime Lannister said, "like nothing I've ever seen).  These are the "facts", per the show.

Those are three fantastic reasons to ally with the Targ faction, and if it means bend the knee, so be it.  What good is being independent if everyone is dead?  A Jon/Dany marriage puts the North at the forefront of the rest of the Seven Kingdoms....the North will be important office holders at court, their sons and daughters positions will be increased, etc. 

[TarotQueen]

The logistics of using the dragons in battle is very interesting to me.

The fellowship of the wight was an incredibly small group, and even there, Jon had to dodge to avoid being dracarysed.

The supply train battle too, was a great deal smaller than the BFD will be.  When and from where do the drsgons attack to prevent friendly fire mistakes?

I cant wait to see the planning for these.  Sans silly Jon/Sansa conflict this time.

[Blonde Gator]

6 minutes ago, TarotQueen said:

The logistics of using the dragons in battle is very interesting to me.

The fellowship of the wight was an incredibly small group, and even there, Jon had to dodge to avoid being dracarysed.

The supply train battle too, was a great deal smaller than the BFD will be.  When and from where do the drsgons attack to prevent friendly fire mistakes?

I cant wait to see the planning for these.  Sans silly Jon/Sansa conflict this time.

I think the dragons in battle is just like a squadron of fighter pilots.  Vietnam, if you will, using liquid kerosene to BBQ the enemy.  If there are two riders, they are in contact with each other, in both pre-flight and in the air, but their contact with home base isn't working, no radios, you see.   It's going to be problematic for the good guys' ground forces to call in close air support.  I'd imagine they'll come up with some sort of identification method, such as having their front line forces toss out something obvious, a large blue blanket or somesuch, as marker.  Of course, with D&D, you never know.

Edited September 4, 2017 by Blonde Gator
tense

[anamika]

I am glad the Northern Lords discussing Jon bending the knee did not come up this season. The North scenes with the lords in the early episodes were so repetitive and annoying because these lords are so one note and useless.  Jon would talk for 5 minutes about the WW threat and how they need to be unified - Sansa and the Northern Lords would whine and grumble. Next episode, Jon would again talk about the WW threat and needing weapons and allies for fighting  - Sansa and Northern Lords would whine and grumble. Thank God, we did not get a third iteration of this, where Jon would talk about bending the knee because WW threat and Sansa and the Northern Lords would whine and grumble. It's become tiresome.

Jon should just leave the whole lot of them to it and let them deal with the threat. But since the North is his home, he's not going to do that. As he already told them, they made him KITN - he did not ask them for the position. And as King he has every right to make that decision. It's not a democracy.

I am just glad that Arya and Bran are back at Winterfell when Jon gets there with Dany. I am pretty sure they will have his back, whatever his decision.

Edited September 4, 2017 by anamika

[Blonde Gator]

6 minutes ago, anamika said:

I am glad the Northern Lords discussing Jon bending the knee did not come up this season. The North scenes with the lords in the early episodes were so repetitive and annoying because these lords are so one note and useless.  Jon would talk for 5 minutes about the WW threat and how they need to be unified - Sansa and the Northern Lords would whine and grumble. Next episode, Jon would again talk about the WW threat and needing weapons and allies for fighting  - Sansa and Northern Lords would whine and grumble. Thank God, we did not get a third iteration of this, where Jon would talk about bending the knee because WW threat and Sansa and the Northern Lords would whine and grumble. It's become tiresome.

Jon should just leave the whole lot of them to it and let them deal with the threat. But since the North is his home, he's not going to do that. As he already told them, they made him KITN - he did not ask them for the position. And as King he has every right to make that decision. It's not a democracy.

I am just glad that Arya and Bran are back at Winterfell when Jon gets there with Dany. I am pretty sure they will have his back, whatever his decision.

Totally agree about the Northern Lords, twits, one and all.  I think the first time they pull this crap with Arya around, she'll go full on she-wolf on them.

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, anamika said:

At that point she has already lost one of her dragons and is pledging to further help him with her other dragons and men. And in return he will take her help, continue to be KITN and fight against her after they defeat the WW?  That's terribly unfair for Dany. What is she getting for her help? Enmity from the North?

They save Westeros.  It's not unfair to Dany; she didn't have to offer help, but she did, and there was no reason to give her the kingdom on top of it.

Quote

No hyperbole at all. Book Sansa has done nothing of any consequence thus far in 5 books - that one time with LF leading her by the nose, she figures out that Lyn Corbray was LF's man. And that's about it. Oh right, there was that time she lied about Marillion to save LF and herself from Vale Lords. Compared to her siblings, she's barely even started to learn playing the game.

Littlefinger didn't "lead her by the nose".  Her suspicion about it was why she was even talking to him about it in the first place.

Book Sansa also contributed her her own escape from King's Landing, and was shown learning stuff there.

1 hour ago, Blonde Gator said:

Really?  I'd say an army of 100,000 dead, and an unknown quantity of WW's staring you in the face, when you only have "7,000 men or less" (Davos : "Fewer"), would constitute a GREAT reason, particularly in light of the fact that Dany had 3 gigantic flame flying flame throwers, one one of two known methods to kill the wights.  Secondly, Daenerys was sitting on a mountain of dragonglass, which is the 2nd known weapon to dispatch the wights.  Third, she has a standing army of 8,000 Unsullied, and an unknown quantity of magnificently mounted cavalry....the Dothraki Screamers (as Jaime Lannister said, "like nothing I've ever seen).  These are the "facts", per the show.

Those are three fantastic reasons to ally with the Targ faction, and if it means bend the knee, so be it.  What good is being independent if everyone is dead?  A Jon/Dany marriage puts the North at the forefront of the rest of the Seven Kingdoms....the North will be important office holders at court, their sons and daughters positions will be increased, etc. 

I agree that if bending the knee was the necessary precondition to getting Dany's help, it was entirely worth doing.

But, as I already explained, it wasn't.  Dany had already committed to helping.  So he didn't trade away their sovereignty to get any of the things you list.

Edited September 4, 2017 by SeanC

[SeanC]

Just now, doram said:

They save the North. Dany could easily do as Cersei and let the NK take the North. Then face the threat with her intact armies , her dragons and the knowledge of the Citadel. Heck, her own Hand advised her to leave the King in the North to die. It would have been the politically and militarily strategic play.

And the argument that the North doesn't have any business in Dany's war with Cersei is short sighted. What do they think will happen if Cersei wins?

And if Dany wins, how long do they think her good will towards the North can be sustained with the memory of how the North refused to ally forces with her after she had lost forces defending them? I mean, Jon is cute... But he's not that cute.

I never argued they needn't participate in the war against Cersei.  It would be wise for the North to do so, since they have an interest in continental stability (though I honestly don't see that the North would have much to contribute, I guess Cersei thinks they might, so who knows?).

And yes, Dany could have refused to help.  But she didn't.

Edited September 4, 2017 by SeanC

[Macbeth]

Say I am a Northern Lord.  I see Jon comes back with a mountain of dragon glass, Dany, her 2 dragons, and her 2 armies to defeat the wights.   I look to Jon to see what he gave up.  And he claims he didn't have to give up anything - not even bend the knee.  I wouldn't believe a word coming out of that man's mouth. 

[Oscirus]

I don't see why anybody expects the Northern lords to eat shit and align with somebody they hate just lt because jon says so. That's literally the reason that Jon got killed by the Night watch. I hope for all their sakes that Sansa is  still on Good terms with Tyrion  and that she's able to convince the lords to listen  to what he says and that his silver tongue is on point  enough to justify the union.

[Oscirus]

They hate targeryans and they hate Lannisters.  Or is all that stuff about not trusting Targs, bull?

[anamika]

8 hours ago, SeanC said:

They save Westeros.  It's not unfair to Dany; she didn't have to offer help, but she did, and there was no reason to give her the kingdom on top of it.

I agree that if bending the knee was the necessary precondition to getting Dany's help, it was entirely worth doing.

But, as I already explained, it wasn't.  Dany had already committed to helping.  So he didn't trade away their sovereignty to get any of the things you list.

 

So after they win the war against the WW, then what? Dany came to be queen of the seven kingdoms. Is Jon as KITN going to take up arms against her and rebel?

The situation was simple. Dany saw the greater threat to the North and decides to do the sensible thing and deal with that first. She did not make bending the knee a precondition - which shows she puts the well being of others over her own self interests. Would it not be fair for Jon to do the same?

How is it not unfair that she helps out the North and then have them refuse to be part of her seven kingdoms or help her with Cersei? You seem fine with the North getting all that help - Dany's men, weapons, advisors etc., and them not giving back anything in return.

It's two people recognizing what's the right thing to do that in that situation and doing it. In doing so they each gain more trust and respect in the other.

Dany recognized the right thing to do would be to help without any preconditions. And Jon recognizing the enormity of what she is offering gives her what she does not ask for her. Reducing this to trade deals is just silly. It's more than that.

7 hours ago, SeanC said:

I never argued they needn't participate in the war against Cersei. It would be wise for the North to do so, since they have an interest in continental stability

But if he had not bend the knee, he would have pledged neutrality to Cersei. In which case, he would not have participated in the war against Cersei. That's what Sansa is specifically pissed off about - that Jon has offered to fight for Dany. Sansa, like some of her fans, wants to get all the freebies without giving back anything in return.

Edited September 5, 2017 by anamika

[SeanC]

2 hours ago, anamika said:

But if he had not bend the knee, he would have pledged neutrality to Cersei.

He didn't know that at the time, so that would have nothing to do with his calculations.

Quote

That's what Sansa is specifically pissed off about - that Jon has offered to fight for Dany. 

She said "he pledged to fight for Daenerys Targaryen, bent the knee", which is to say, she repeats the basics of the letter's contents.  

Quote

She did not make bending the knee a precondition - which shows she puts the well being of others over her own self interests. Would it not be fair for Jon to do the same?

Would not Jon putting the wellbeing of others above his own self-interest involve not bending the knee to Dany, since the people he rules don't want a Targaryen monarch, from what we've seen?  If it was Dany or death, then the choice if obvious, but as the show depicted it, that was not the choice.  Dany had already recognized the need to band together against the greater threat.

Edited September 5, 2017 by SeanC

[tangerine95]

I don't think it would be in character for Jon who is so honourable to just let Dany go north to fight the WW and very likely lose a lot of her armies as well as the dragons she considers children without offering her something in return even if she didn't ask for it.Especially in a situation where he just saw her risk her life and lose a dragon to save him and his men when she really didn't have to.

Idk I just don't even think the whole northern independence thing is that important or even smart and sustainable in the long run.They were fine as part of the seven kingdoms for centuries and only rebelled and proclaimed a KiTN when the person on the throne was a direct threat to them.So I think Jon is counting on the fact that when they see Dany is a ruler who cares and is willing to fight for them they'll accept being a part of the seven kingdoms  again with her as queen  which I think makes sense tbh.Especially since if Cersei remains queen after the war with the NK,she for sure won't leave the probably severely weakened north alone and she won't be nearly as nice about their independence or their potential king or queen as Dany was.

Edited September 5, 2017 by tangerine95

[SeanC]

5 minutes ago, doram said:

You'd think that, right? Only when Jon was given the choice of Dany or death ("I will fight for you... if you bend the knee "), he chose death and rather than think he was jeopardizing his people's lives for his pride, a lot of people felt that Dany should have been willing to help the North without expecting anything, and that would have convinced Jon to bend the knee...

And this is exactly what happened... Yet somehow the argument has swerved from that to the current one where it somehow seems reasonable and honourable that Dany's the one giving up of everything in this partnership and getting nothing in exchange??? 

Framing it as Jon's pride doesn't make much sense, since his people didn't want a Targaryen monarch.  If anything, it would be about making the decision even though his supporters didn't like it.

I don't disagree that Dany was within her rights to insist on the North acceding to her rule before she helped.  But she ultimately didn't do that.

[anamika]

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

He didn't know that at the time, so that would have nothing to do with his calculations.

Who said he was laying there making calculations? Only that his right decision then played into his not being able to pledge neutrality to Cersei later on.

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

She said "he pledged to fight for Daenerys Targaryen, bent the knee", which is to say, she repeats the basics of the letter's contents. 

Yes, and she is pissed off about it . Going so far as to consider deposing Jon and installing herself as queen. Only the presence of Arya at WF gave her pause.

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

Would not Jon putting the wellbeing of others above his own self-interest involve not bending the knee to Dany, since the people he rules don't want a Targaryen monarch, from what we've seen?  If it was Dany or death, then the choice if obvious, but as the show depicted it, that was not the choice.  Dany had already recognized the need to band together against the greater threat.

Dany is there to sit on the Iron Throne and be queen of the seven kingdoms. That's pretty much her goal since book one, season one. So I will ask you again, since you seem to be ignoring it - after the fight with the WW is over, do you think Jon and the North should fight against Dany for an independent North or should he bend the knee? Simple question.

Or do you think that after they defeat the WW, everyone is going to hold hands and sing kumbaya? I mean, Dany still wants to sit the IT. Cersei still wants to rule. If the North wants independence they will have to fight either Dany or Cersei at the end of it all. Is that what Jon should do?

This is what Jon wrote to Sansa: If we survive this war, I have pledged my forces to Daenarys as rightful queen of the seven kingdoms - Makes sense to commit the North to fight for the queen who helped them as opposed to fighting against her or Cersei Lannister.

As for the well being of the Northerners - we see Jon himself answer this question - he thinks Dany is a GOOD QUEEN and he thinks that North will see that as well. We see the sequence of events laid out for us -

Dany: And you say you can't defeat them without my armies or my dragons

Jon: No, I don't think I can

Here, Dany understand that the only way Jon can win is if she helps - she holds all the cards and has the leverage to get Jon to bend the knee.

Dany: I will fight for you. I will fight for the North. When you bend the knee

Jon: My people won't accept a southern ruler. Not after everything they have suffered

Dany: They will if their king does. They chose you to lead them. They chose you to protect them. Is not their survival more important than your pride?

Dany tells Jon that North chose him as their leader and hence will agree with his decision.

Later after Dany sees the undead and Viserion is dead:

Dany: The dragons are my children. They are the only children I will have. We are going to destroy the Night King and his army. And we will do it together. You have my word.

Jon bends the knee.

Dany: What about those he swore allegiance to you

Jon: They will come to see you for what you are.

Dany has just made a big frigging sacrifice and lost a child. She is pledging to help the North without making him bending the knee as a precondition- this makes her a ruler who sees that the WW are the immediate threat, stops her war down south and is ready to use all her resources to defend the first place under attack - the North.  As opposed to Cersei asking for neutrality to just sit out the war. Jon recognizes that Dany has done nothing but help him since they met and thinks that the Northerners will come to see her as a good queen.

So yes, he is thinking of the bigger picture and thinking of the concerns and well being of the Northerners .

Now if the Northerners are going to be the same useless, whiny lot next season, then like I said, Jon should just leave them to it, take Arya and Bran and go off to fight the WW with Dany. Sansa and the Northerners can be selfish a-holes who then fight against Dany for an independent North since they don't like Targaryen rule and all that. With dumb generals like Yohn Royce - the guy who wanted to tear down the castles acting as the first line of defense - I can see that they will do marvelously against Dany. But Sansa and her armor expertise may prevail and defeat Dany and she becomes QITN!! Knowing the way David and Dan write anything is possible. 

If these were the Northerners in the books, I would give importance to their opinions. As it stands, the Northerners on the show post season 5 are so badly written, that I could not care less what they think.

Edited September 5, 2017 by anamika

[anamika]

I just thought this was interesting with regards to Jon being named Aegon. Aemon's advice to Jon in the books.

Quote

“Allow me to give my lord one last piece of counsel,” the old man had said, “the same counsel I once gave my brother when we parted for the last time. He was three-and-thirty when the Great Council chose him to mount the Iron Throne. A man grown with sons of his own, yet in some ways still a boy. Egg had an innocence to him, a sweetness we all loved. Kill the boy within you, I told him the day I took ship for the Wall. It takes a man to rule. An Aegon, not an Egg. Kill the boy and let the man be born.” The old man felt Jon’s face. “You are half the age that Egg was, and your own burden is a crueler one, I fear. You will have little joy of your command, but I think you have the strength in you to do the things that must be done. Kill the boy, Jon Snow. Winter is almost upon us. Kill the boy and let the man be born.”  - ADwD

I am still bitter about the fact that Jon and Dany never discussed Aemon. Like how can Jon not bring him up?!

[Blonde Gator]

4 minutes ago, anamika said:

I just thought this was interesting with regards to Jon being named Aegon. Aemon's advice to Jon in the books.

I am still bitter about the fact that Jon and Dany never discussed Aemon. Like how can Jon not bring him up?!

This, x1,000.

[MadMouse]

44 minutes ago, anamika said:

I just thought this was interesting with regards to Jon being named Aegon. Aemon's advice to Jon in the books.

I am still bitter about the fact that Jon and Dany never discussed Aemon. Like how can Jon not bring him up?!

I wouldn't worry about it, if this season has shown us they love callbacks. There's no way he's not brought up again once Jon's heritage is revealed.

[WindyNights]

On 9/3/2017 at 4:09 PM, doram said:

Theon Greyjoy must have missed that memo. As did Tywin Lannister when he found a way to defeat Robb outside a battlefield.

If Dany loses half her army fighting the NK while Cersei gains a shiny new mercenary army and a score of Scorpions, I don't think the outcome of the war is as cut and dried as you think.

 

On the contrary, I think if anyone were truly applying contemporary morals fairly across board, they'd have given up on this Crapsack World 'verse midway in the first season. The problem is that those morals are applied with bias (and no, Robb didn't get any blame for his soldiers raping from the audience ---- even though this is actually a plot point in the books) and to selective characters. The show runners feed into this, but it won't work so well if certain members of the audience weren't already inclined to be more forgiving of male characters, and more judgmental of females: 

Therefore we get the deliberately whitewashing of male protagonist like Jon - no baby murder threats from their Golden Boy - or Tyrion "Imma rape and kill my sister" Lannister who is so different between books and show that he's 2 polar opposite characters, while Dany is deliberately - as you yourself admitted - being painted blacker.

Which was exactly where this discussion started from. 

I disagree. I apply contemporary morals for the characters all the time. That doesn't mean I expect them to follow it just that I can use my own morals to judge a character. That many have large flaws just makes it better for me. I like flawed characters. That makes them seem more real to me.  

I do agree that female characters get less breaks than male characters. I just don't think it works with Robb and Daenerys because while we see Robb's men do heinous things, we never see him do particularly dark things and that's mostly because he's not a POV. We see Daenerys' actions good or bad in her POV. That's why I say that Daenerys is a darker character because she's portrayed as darker. But if you disagree with that then let's agree to disagree. 

[WindyNights]

7 hours ago, doram said:

The North not having a Targaryen monarch =/= their wellbeing.

The North not being consumed by The Army of the Dead = their wellbeing. And Jon secured that by putting aside self preservation , taking the risk of meeting Dany, then trying to convince Cersei. 

You'd think that, right? Only when Jon was given the choice of Dany or death ("I will fight for you... if you bend the knee "), he chose death and rather than think he was jeopardizing his people's lives for his pride, a lot of people felt that Dany should have been willing to help the North without expecting anything, and that would have convinced Jon to bend the knee...

And this is exactly what happened... Yet somehow the argument has swerved from that to the current one where it somehow seems reasonable and honourable that Dany's the one giving up of everything in this partnership and getting nothing in exchange??? 

Exactly. It's not like Jon is selling the North into slavery. The North specifically declared their "Independence" on the basis of not being willing to be ruled by ta non-Targaryen monarch. ("It was the dragons we bowed to...")

That's not exactly it. The Northerners don't want to be ruled by the south anymore. Their culture isn't even northern. Here:

"Why should they rule over me and mine, from some flowery seat in Highgarden or Dorne? What do they know of the Wall or the wolfswood or the barrows of the First Men? Even their gods are wrong."

On top of that, the Northerners don't actually like Targaryens which is why knowing Jon's true parentage is going to cause some problems. 

In this last episode, Jorah even said that the Northerners have bad blood with the Targaryens and Daenerys should be worried about Northerners looking to kill her 

[MarySNJ]

20 hours ago, Blonde Gator said:

Totally agree about the Northern Lords, twits, one and all.  I think the first time they pull this crap with Arya around, she'll go full on she-wolf on them.

She already did, sort of. She complained to Sansa about her leniency, then acknowledged Jon would have done the same and suggested cutting off some heads. Arya was wrong in that situation, because Sansa knows they need willing vasals. However, the Northern Lords are twits for sure; "bloody weather vanes".

[anamika]

2 hours ago, WindyNights said:

That's not exactly it. The Northerners don't want to be ruled by the south anymore. Their culture isn't even northern. Here:

"Why should they rule over me and mine, from some flowery seat in Highgarden or Dorne? What do they know of the Wall or the wolfswood or the barrows of the First Men? Even their gods are wrong."

If you are going to use this quote then you should put out the full quote...

Quote

MY LORDS! Here is what I say to these two kings! Renly Baratheon is nothing to me, nor Stannis neither. Why should they rule over me and mine, from some flowery seat in Highgarden or Dorne? What do they know of the Wall or the wolfswood or the barrows of the First Men? Even their gods are wrong. The Others take the Lannisters too, I've had a bellyful of them. Why shouldn't we rule ourselves again? It was the dragons we married, and the dragons are all dead! There sits the only king I mean to bow my knee to, m'lords. The King in the North!

2 hours ago, WindyNights said:

On top of that, the Northerners don't actually like Targaryens which is why knowing Jon's true parentage is going to cause some problems. 

In this last episode, Jorah even said that the Northerners have bad blood with the Targaryens and Daenerys should be worried about Northerners looking to kill her 

True, there will be some drama when Jon goes to Winterfell with Dany and when his parentage comes out. But since the WW have breached the wall, I am not sure how much time they are going to devote to this drama.

But Jon is in a more comfortable position now  than he was before he left WF. Jon has the support of the Dragon Queen and she's a powerful ally to have. As LF says, together they would be hard to defeat. 

As it stands, I don't think Jon is going to be all that bothered about their protests. He will try convincing them that this is the right deal to take - if they refuse, what can he do? I think he will just give up his title and go off and get busy with fighting the WW that are already past the wall and marching south.

Edited September 5, 2017 by anamika

[Bryce Lynch]

20 hours ago, doram said:

They save the North. Dany could easily do as Cersei and let the NK take the North. Then face the threat with her intact armies , her dragons and the knowledge of the Citadel. Heck, her own Hand advised her to leave the King in the North to die. It would have been the politically and militarily strategic play.

And the argument that the North doesn't have any business in Dany's war with Cersei is short sighted. What do they think will happen if Cersei wins? 

And if Dany wins, how long do they think her good will towards the North can be sustained with the memory of how the North refused to ally forces with her after she had lost forces defending them? I mean, Jon is cute... But he's not that cute.

A few points:

a) If Dany allowed the North to be taken by the NK, her armies would be facing hundreds of thousands more wights when they attacked the South.  It is in everyone's best interest to stop the NK as soon as possible  

b) The Lords of the North reasonably believe that Cersei could never take the North.  It has been stated more than once that no Southern army has ever taken the North, except Aegon, who had dragons.  

c) There is a difference between the North allying with Dany and swearing fealty to her, and giving up their independence.  There is no reason the North and Dany can't fight a common enemy as independent allies.  She offered independence to the Iron Island, in exchange for them helping her defeat Cersei.  Why shouldn't the North expect a similar deal?  

d) You could argue that, initially, when Dany was demanding that Jon bend the knee, she was being as bad, or worse than Cersei and the Dragon Pit.  Cersei was only demanding Jon remain neutral, Dany was demanding Jon put his kingdom and his people under her rule.   Of course, Dany is basically good, and Cersei is evil. (and Cersei was never going  honor any deal she made).  But, you could argue Dany was being just a stubborn and putting her desire for power ahead of the common good, just like Cersei.  In Dany's defense, she had not yet seen the Night Kng (or looked into his eyes) and his army, so she wasn't convinced about the grave threat to all of Westeros yet.

e) When Dany rescued the team from the idiotic, beyond the wall mission, and pledged to work with Jon to destroy the NK and his army (dropping the requirement that he bend the knee), she earned Jon's trust and admiration, and he willingly bent the knee.  He was not doing it under duress, but because he believed she would be a great queen. 

f) I would still understand the Northern Lords having concerns about this.  They don't know Dany the way Jon does.  Also, while they have probably heard more reliable reports about it,  the Northern Lords have not seen the NK's army.  Jon had been King in the North for about 15 minutes before turned over the Kingdom to a Targaryen "girl" who hasn't even gained the Iron Throne yet.  When/if their intimate relationship is revealed, it wouldn't be totally unreasonable for some to suspect that she seduced him into selling out his kingdom.  On top of that, Jon is a bastard (as far as everyone except Brandon and Sam know) and is not a "true Stark".  I could see them saying, "We did the little bastard a favor, by ignoring his birth and making him KITN, and he almost immediately sells us out?"

I'm not saying Jon did the wrong thing.  I'm just saying that, with the information they have, from the perspective of the Northern Lords, it could reasonably appear he was a sellout.  

[Oscirus]

Helping Dany does not mean helping the North, north can exist without  the Queens support much like Dorne has pre ass hole that married their princess. It would be one thing if Jon wasn't  making decisions based off what makes him look good, but thats exactly what he's doing. He needs to stop making unilateral decisions that mostly benefit him and his own.

[Bryce Lynch]

24 minutes ago, doram said:

How? Like I'm not asking to be ingenious, but how does their information point to this? Jon goes South to get dragon glass, dragons and armies to fight from the Targaryen would-be Queen... Jon returns with all of the above and has bent the knee to said Queen... Did they genuinely believe that they'd get all these from Dany without anything in exchange?

 

The difference is that Dany wasn't convinced of the gravity of the threat (and Jon's refusal to bend the knee just made it seem even more trivial As Tyrion said : if Dany's Campaign was irrelevant to this Apocalypse then so was Northern "Independence") while Cersei was convinced of the threat and was determined to doom the whole world since she didn't have her way. 

 

And whose "common good"? The North's? Someone in another thread mentioned that we never actually see Dany ask her armies if they're willing to fight the NK etc. I mean I assume that she did but do they not count? They committed to Dany to fight a human army , not zombies. Isn't it the height of entitlement for Jon to just co-opt them for his war? To sacrifice their lives to save his people?

The Northern Lords, including the toughest and wisest of them, Lady Lyanna Mormont, did not want Jon to go South at all.  They certainly did not expect him to go and bend the knee, and put them all in subjection to an uncrowned, foreign "queen".  I.m not sure Jon even mentioned the part in the raven scroll about Danerys wanting him to bend the knee.    

As for what they would give in return for the dragon glass and or military aid against the NK, there were all sort of options, short of handing over the kingdom to Dany:

1) The North would be on the front lines protecting the entire realm from the NK and the army of the dead.  Allowing them to mine some dragon glass, that Dany had no use for would seem like a reasonable trade for this protection, and Dany did agree to this, after Tyrion talked her into it.  It was in the mutual interest of Dany and the North for her to give them dragon glass.

2) Jon could have offered to remain neutral and to never take up arms against Dany and her armies, provided they did not invade the North.  (This is basically what Cersei pretended to give up in exchange for a an armistice and Dany accepted).

3) Jon could have backed Dany's claim to the Iron Throne and  pledged that the North would aid Dany in fighting Cersei, in exchange for her help with the NK, without giving up their independence.  This is essentially the deal Dany gave Yara and the Iron Islands.  Why should Jon have to put the North in subjection to Dany to form an alliance, when the Iron Island were to be granted independence?

I understand that Dany changed her view after she realized how real and grave the threat was, while Cersei only pretended to change her view, while plotting an assault of Dany.  

As for Dany's armies, I think they will fight anyone or anything for her.  She has earned the fanatical devotion of the Unsullied (by freeing them) and the Dothraki (by performing a "miracle" in front of them, burning all the Khals to death and emerging unburnt.)  Even if they weren't, it is in the interest of every person in Westeros, to fight the NK because if he is not stopped, he will destroy all of them. 

The NK and the army of the dead are not only a threat to the North, they are just a big a threat to the rest of Westeros.  Every Northerner killed by them will become another soldier of the NK for the assault on the South.   The "common good", in this case means the good of every man, woman and child in the world.  Obviously you haven't seen the Night King and looked into his eyes. :)

[Bryce Lynch]

1 minute ago, Oscirus said:

Helping Dany does not mean helping the North, north can exist without  the Queens support much like Dorne has pre ass hole that married their princess. It would be one thing if Jon wasn't  making decisions based off what makes him look good, but thats exactly what he's doing. He needs to stop making unilateral decisions that mostly benefit him and his own.

I think Jon genuinely does believe that having Dany on the Iron Throne and having the North be one of her kingdoms is in the best interests of the North.  If he was going based upon what makes him look good,  he would refuse to bend the knee.  He basically demoted himself from King in the North to Warden of the North.   He refused to bend the knee to get the dragon glass or to form an alliance.  He did it willingly after he saw Danerys in action and saw her courage and loyalty.  He might also be influenced by his attraction to her.

While, I don't think Jon should have agreed to make the North subject to Dany without first consulting the Northern Lords, I do think he is acting in what he believes to be the best interests of the North.

[crowceilidh]

Quote

I have to add that I just can't with Theon. All I feel is annoyance and impatience. I think that his story is done, but the writers keep stringing it out. The scene with Jon was so predictable that I rolled my eyes.

I continued to roll my eyes all through the being beaten, not having testicles kicks and the attempt to enliven the ironborn to go rescue Yara scene.  Absolutely ALL of that felt forced and unlikely to me.  Alfie may be a good actor, but there are limits when you are given such shite to try to enliven.

[freebie]

Honestly, if the Northern lords, Sansa, and whoever else you want to put in the naysayers' camp don't immediately STFU the instant Drogon and Rhaegal take flight over Winterfell for the first time, Jon absolutely should trundle on out of there with his actual friends and supporters and leave everyone else to their silliness. It's one thing to hear the news that a Targaryen heir has arrived back in Westeros with the combined forces of Dothraki, Unsullied and dragons, but another thing entirely to actually lay eyes on all of that right at your front door. It would be like a fairy tale coming to life. One look at Dany astride Drogon, and I fully expect Lyanna Mormont to start a fan club, die her hair blond, and demand to be called Khaleesi!

Add to that the personal stories Jon, Davos, Tormund and Jorah can tell -- Daenerys didn't slaughter the emissaries from the North outright when they came ashore at Dragonstone, even when Jon refused to bend the knee; she humored them and let them mine dragon glass; she eventually came around -- despite the fact that Jon still had not bent the knee -- and saved their lives at great, great personal cost to herself; and she's willing to go once more into the breach against the army of the dead, plus take on Cersei Lannister, assuming the Night King can be defeated. The North may have concerns in theory, but Jon is correct, once they see Dany, meet her, hear what she has done and has pledged to do, it will be a different story entirely.

That doesn't mean there won't be angst or further strife, particularly once Bran and Sam arm Jon with the knowledge of his parentage, but this issue of whether or not Jon should or should not have bent the knee will be of little consequence once WWs and re-animated corpses are outside the gates of Winterfell. Personally, I hope the nonsense hand-wringing over Jon's reasoned decision to throw his lot in with Dany is over and done in the first minute of episode one of season eight. The North's very survival is at stake; no one breathing should still be playing the game of thrones.

[Heathrowe99]

Am finally watching the finale...the moment when the Hound opens the box to let the wight out, and he doesn't come out reminded me of every failed Butterfly release wedding ceremony I've been to. Glad he finally came out to play.

[Blonde Gator]

49 minutes ago, crowceilidh said:

I continued to roll my eyes all through the being beaten, not having testicles kicks and the attempt to enliven the ironborn to go rescue Yara scene.  Absolutely ALL of that felt forced and unlikely to me.  Alfie may be a good actor, but there are limits when you are given such shite to try to enliven.

Agreed.  The entire Theon arc(s) have been wasted time since Season 3.

[Blonde Gator]

49 minutes ago, freebie said:

Honestly, if the Northern lords, Sansa, and whoever else you want to put in the naysayers' camp don't immediately STFU the instant Drogon and Rhaegal take flight over Winterfell for the first time, Jon absolutely should trundle on out of there with his actual friends and supporters and leave everyone else to their silliness. It's one thing to hear the news that a Targaryen heir has arrived back in Westeros with the combined forces of Dothraki, Unsullied and dragons, but another thing entirely to actually lay eyes on all of that right at your front door. It would be like a fairy tale coming to life. One look at Dany astride Drogon, and I fully expect Lyanna Mormont to start a fan club, die her hair blond, and demand to be called Khaleesi!

Add to that the personal stories Jon, Davos, Tormund and Jorah can tell -- Daenerys didn't slaughter the emissaries from the North outright when they came ashore at Dragonstone, even when Jon refused to bend the knee; she humored them and let them mine dragon glass; she eventually came around -- despite the fact that Jon still had not bent the knee -- and saved their lives at great, great personal cost to herself; and she's willing to go once more into the breach against the army of the dead, plus take on Cersei Lannister, assuming the Night King can be defeated. The North may have concerns in theory, but Jon is correct, once they see Dany, meet her, hear what she has done and has pledged to do, it will be a different story entirely.

That doesn't mean there won't be angst or further strife, particularly once Bran and Sam arm Jon with the knowledge of his parentage, but this issue of whether or not Jon should or should not have bent the knee will be of little consequence once WWs and re-animated corpses are outside the gates of Winterfell. Personally, I hope the nonsense hand-wringing over Jon's reasoned decision to throw his lot in with Dany is over and done in the first minute of episode one of season eight. The North's very survival is at stake; no one breathing should still be playing the game of thrones.

Totally agree!

King Tohrren knelt.  And he wasn't under threat from the Army of the Dead on his back door step.

All of this "Northern Lords" angst is just so much blah blah blah.  They made Jon KITN, and that meant to use his judgement to make the decisions for the entire North.  He did that.  Just as he was elected LC of the Night Watch, with the privileges (including beheading Janos Slynt for mutiny)....he has the exact same rights here. 

Dany is all upside and no downside right now.  The North is and has always been fairly autonomous under the Targs.  Geography mandates that.  Nothing can be expected to change if Westeros is reunited under Dany once again.  Particularly not if the North is her BEST ally, right?

If they hadn't wanted Jon to BE KitN, they should have stayed quiet after the BoB, and gone on without a ruler or someone making their decisions for them.  Because Camel Committees always work out so well. 

Northern whining (looking at you Sansa) equals faux drama, IMO.

[Heathrowe99]

Almost done with the finale. If Littlefinger hadn't knelt to beg Sansa for a chance, would someone have gotten Arya a stool to slash his throat? That was convenient.

Good scene, even if NOTHING leading up to it made sense. Glad I was spoiled or I'd have been really weirded out by the last episode.  

[WindyNights]

13 minutes ago, doram said:

OMG, thank you. All this talk about knee-bending and Northern Independence...

When Dany wants to win the Seven Kingdoms, the reprisal is "Who cares whose skeleton sits on the Iron Throne?"

When DaKingInDaNorf bends the knee, the reprisal is "But... but... what about Northern Independence?!"

Any Northern Lord who's pressed about Jon bending the knee, should go negotiate terms with the Night King for Northern Independence. 

That's kind of what GRRM is getting at. Even in the face of an existential threat, people will still jockey for power. 

 

GRRM:Well, of course, the two outlying ones — the things going on north of the Wall, and then there is Targaryen on the other continent with her dragons — are of course the ice and fire of the title, “A Song of Ice and Fire.” The central stuff — the stuff that’s happening in the middle, in King’s Landing, the capital of the seven kingdoms — is much more based on historical events, historical fiction. It’s loosely drawn from the Wars of the Roses and some of the other conflicts around the 100 Years’ War, although, of course, with a fantasy twist. You know, one of the dynamics I started with, there was the sense of people being so consumed by their petty struggles for power within the seven kingdoms, within King’s Landing — who’s going to be king? Who’s going to be on the Small Council? Who’s going to determine the policies? — that they’re blind to the much greater and more dangerous threats that are happening far away on the periphery of their kingdoms.

And of course, you can see that all through history. It’s a common dynamic that takes place in history. You know, the Greek city-states, before the birth of Christ, you know, and fighting with each other, squabbling with each other, even as Philip of Macedon built up his armies to conquer them all. But you even see it in modern times, you know — the political struggles of France, under the Third Republic, while the Nazi threat is rising.

But the French politicians would almost rather befriend the Nazis than each other. And maybe our lessons in the modern day too. Who knows? I mean, we have things going on in our world right now like climate change, that’s, you know, ultimately a threat to the entire world. But people are using it as a political football instead of, you know … You’d think everybody would get together.

[Oscirus]

40 minutes ago, doram said:

OMG, thank you. All this talk about knee-bending and Northern Independence...

When Dany wants to win the Seven Kingdoms, the reprisal is "Who cares whose skeleton sits on the Iron Throne?"

When DaKingInDaNorf bends the knee, the reprisal is "But... but... what about Northern Independence?!"

Any Northern Lord who's pressed about Jon bending the knee, should go negotiate terms with the Night King for Northern Independence. 

Except that wasn't a requirement for Dany's  help. Dany was offering her complete help regardless. Jon just offered the North to Dany so he wouldn't look like a dick.

 

He could've easily bought the idea to the lords and encouraged them to back her which they likely wouldve done but nope dictators gotta dictate

[ShellsandCheese]

20 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Except that wasn't a requirement for Dany's  help. Dany was offering her complete help regardless. Jon just offered the North to Dany so he wouldn't look like a dick.

 

He could've easily bought the idea to the lords and encouraged them to back her which they likely wouldve done but nope dictators gotta dictate

Jon is hardly a dictator and was proclaimed KITN. As KITN he’s tasked with making decisions on behalf of the entire North. He’s not required to consult them before every decision, that’s not feasible. 

[TaurusRose]

31 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Except that wasn't a requirement for Dany's  help. Dany was offering her complete help regardless. Jon just offered the North to Dany so he wouldn't look like a dick.

 

He could've easily bought the idea to the lords and encouraged them to back her which they likely wouldve done but nope dictators gotta dictate

Jon offered to bend the knee precisely because Dany was no longer demanding it. Instead, she proved herself to be worthy of the north's allegiance. Why is that so difficult to grasp?

No, he could not. Did you miss the part where they have no time for this foolishness? The Night King has breached the wall at Eastwatch and the army of the dead are marching south NOW. Your arguments are nonsensical based on what is happening. And calling Jon a dictator is a huge exaggeration.

Edited September 5, 2017 by taurusrose

[screamin]

35 minutes ago, ShellsandCheese said:

Jon is hardly a dictator and was proclaimed KITN. As KITN he’s tasked with making decisions on behalf of the entire North. He’s not required to consult them before every decision, that’s not feasible. 

How about deciding he's unilaterally going to give up being King in the North after the North made themselves traitors to the Iron Throne by crowning him? While I do think it was the right thing to do in the long run, the way he went about it will look like rank ingratitude to the Northern lords - and no, not just the 'windvanes.' Even the faithful like little Lady Mormont will likely feel a bit slapped in the face. He could have managed this more tactfully than breaking the news in the signature of a raven missive calling himself 'Warden' instead of 'King.'