Past Seasons Talk: From Seattle Grace to Grey Sloan Memorial Hospital

[BaseOps]

Everyone seems to pin the "Lexie being eaten by wolves" thing on Shonda having it in for Chyler / Lexie but I really think it was just about adding dramatics to Cristina's monologue in that scene, honestly. Sandra Oh was great in it, but some of the things felt so over the top (the fact that it took four days to find them, Lexie being eaten by animals, drinking their own urine, etc.) But yea, I really don't think that had anything to do with the actress. As someone said, Chyler gave her notice and they worked toward that story. 

 

Columbus Short from Scandal is a possibility, as is TR I guess. I don't think she ever disliked TR though. I think that whole situation just got the best of everyone, and then coupled with the frustration of the writing for his character TR decided to leave.

[Artymouse]

Looking back at Mark's death, he really did get a good send-off, much better than Derek's.

With George, it would have been completely logical to send him off to Iraq and either never hear from him again, or have him get killed in battle and his friends hear about it. But throwing George in the path of a bus and making him injured so horribly his loved ones don't recognize him? Yeah, that does have a potentially vindictive flavor.

[CED9]

Pete Wilder on Private Practice had a heart attack and died in a ditch. They didn't even show it. He made it pretty clear on twitter afterwards that it wasn't a happy split.

Tim Daly was my thought, too. There was also talk around that time of Tim and Shonda not really liking each other being part of the reason (other than her being insanely busy) that we never saw Tyne Daly as Mama Shepherd again.

[craziness]

Regarding George being hit by the bus, at least in his death, he was a hero (saving that lady who them wouldn't leave the hospital). I think it was nice that SHonda made him a hero, rather than just some clumsy guy who feel. Plus his last shot on the elevator, in uniform, looked good.

[Greysaddict]

Tim Daly was my thought, too. There was also talk around that time of Tim and Shonda not really liking each other being part of the reason (other than her being insanely busy) that we never saw Tyne Daly as Mama Shepherd again.

I agree that it could have been Tim Daly, but his death was also a product of the same budget cuts that effected Eric Dane (i think that was the same year? I vaguely remember Addison finding out about Mark at Pete's memorial).  If I remember Tim Daly's anger was not about being cut more about how he found out he wasn't returning.   However, bringing it back to GA, you are definitely right about the Tyne Daly thing.  I am always sad about the fact that we will never see Mama Shepherd again because of that.  

[Artymouse]

So that's why Tyne Daly hasn't returned! That's such a bummer. Since I never watch PP, I didn't make the connection between Tim and Tyne, even though I knew he was her son. I really hate that, because Mrs. Shepherd was such a great character.

[jaytee1812]

Tyne and Tim Daly are siblings, not mother and son.

[Artymouse]

Tyne and Tim Daly are siblings, not mother and son.

 

Thanks for the clarification. She must be younger than I realize, because on GA, she seemed like the right age to be McDreamy's mom, but isn't Tim Daly close to Dempsey's age? 

[Chas411]

I'm just onto season six now where the Mercey Westers invade and the show is starting to feel a little crowded. I liked April before she got fired and I have to say I found Lexie kind of mean for stealing her notebook. I always loved Lexie but her sudden dislike of April made me like her a little less. It just seemed unnecessary. I always liked Jackson, right from the start. Reed and Charles I'm meh on but if I didn't know any better I'd have thought that they were trying to pair Reed/Alex from all their scenes.

 

Izzie's exit was so abrupt and random. I suppose backstage drama had to take precedence over good storytelling but her blaming Alex because of a throwaway line by Webber just seemed so... blah. Considering how close she was to MAGIC I find it hard to believe she'd just walk away from all of them without a word. I haven't seen her last episode where she returns yet though.

 

I'm watching it season by season trying to pinpoint where Meredith becomes a total bitch. She's still dark and twisty in early seasons but she relates to her patients and shows them such empathy. When did she go from that to such a witch?

[Joana]

Her response to being fired was so hilarious. It was like, you want to fire me for almost killing a patient, remember that I actually did a kill a patient once and you didn't fire me then, so you can't do it now! 

Way to make your case, girl. 

Edited November 13, 2015 by Joana

[Greysaddict]

I'm just onto season six now where the Mercey Westers invade and the show is starting to feel a little crowded. I liked April before she got fired and I have to say I found Lexie kind of mean for stealing her notebook. I always loved Lexie but her sudden dislike of April made me like her a little less. It just seemed unnecessary. I always liked Jackson, right from the start. Reed and Charles I'm meh on but if I didn't know any better I'd have thought that they were trying to pair Reed/Alex from all their scenes.

 

Izzie's exit was so abrupt and random. I suppose backstage drama had to take precedence over good storytelling but her blaming Alex because of a throwaway line by Webber just seemed so... blah. Considering how close she was to MAGIC I find it hard to believe she'd just walk away from all of them without a word. I haven't seen her last episode where she returns yet though.

 

I'm watching it season by season trying to pinpoint where Meredith becomes a total bitch. She's still dark and twisty in early seasons but she relates to her patients and shows them such empathy. When did she go from that to such a witch?

I like season 6  a lot from what I remember but it was probably the biggest shift in focus of the show except for maybe the current season.  Izzie's exit was abrupt because she literally stopped showing up for work so there wasn't much they could do about it.  

 

I've always been a big Meredith fan and always defend her as being empathic towards the patients.  I only noticed the change in her personality last season (S11) but looking back I think it started in S10.  Everything went downhill for Meredith first with the stupid 3d printer and fighting with Cristina, and then the Derek/DC stuff happens and she turns into a mega hypocrite/bitch.

Edited November 13, 2015 by Greysaddict

[CED9]

Thanks for the clarification. She must be younger than I realize, because on GA, she seemed like the right age to be McDreamy's mom, but isn't Tim Daly close to Dempsey's age?

No, Tim just looks good for his age. He's 59. Tyne is 69.

[Chas411]

Midway through season six and the chief has relapsed. i hate the stuff with Teddy/Owen - they are the worst. So over dramatic and tedious. I wish they'd both left together.

[DearEvette]

Just finished S8.  Even though the knowledge of the looming plane crash kinda hovered over my viewing of the season I did really like a few stand-out episodes. 

 

I loved the baseball game episode.  It is nice for the show to just be lighthearted and fun.  Meredith and Christina drinking from a flask in the outfield and basically giving no fucks about even trying to play was the best.

 

I also enjoyed watching the If/Then episode the one where Meredith imagines an alternate life.  Seeing Derek as a sad-sack underachiever was almost as fun as seeing Alex as some sort of preppy social climber.  But yikes, poor Lexie as a crack head.

 

And I loved the episodes with them taking their boards.  The stuff with April freaking out was an eye-roller, but it was completely redeemed by Alex being the guy that who comes out on top for once.

 

Was not a fan of any of the relationship stuff this season.  Christina/Owen were never one of my favorites so their angst didn't move me.  Ditto with Mark/Lexie,  They never did anything for me as a couple.   For me of all the people they had Mark with, he had the best natural chemistry with Callie.

Edited November 15, 2015 by DearEvette

[choclatechip45]

 

I agree that it could have been Tim Daly, but his death was also a product of the same budget cuts that effected Eric Dane (i think that was the same year? I vaguely remember Addison finding out about Mark at Pete's memorial).  If I remember Tim Daly's anger was not about being cut more about how he found out he wasn't returning.   However, bringing it back to GA, you are definitely right about the Tyne Daly thing.  I am always sad about the fact that we will never see Mama Shepherd again because of that.

It was. However Shonda did not tell him and he found out from his agent and he went on twitter to tell everyone. I thought she was talking to about him.  I know Chris Lowell has said he asked Shonda to be killed off.

[Artymouse]

I'm up to S10 in my rewatch, and I'd forgotten how insufferable Meredith is, especially in the feud with Cristina. That whole first half of the season is a downer, what with Richard's accident and Calzona's breakup. But holy cow, Meredith is a bitch.

So far, the most redeeming moments for me are Alex's jam in the blues bar with his dad and Shane telling off Meredith about Cristina using the 3D printer for the heart valve.

I know it improves in the second half of the season, but I've been FF'ing big chunks of episodes to skip boring storylines and to suppress the urge to throw things at the screen.

But I liked James Remar a lot as Alex's dad. You can see a slight resemblance and similarities in mannerisms. Wish they hadn't killed him off. It would've been interesting to see if they could actually build a semblance of a relationship.

[BaseOps]

I'm up to S10 in my rewatch, and I'd forgotten how insufferable Meredith is, especially in the feud with Cristina. That whole first half of the season is a downer, what with Richard's accident and Calzona's breakup. But holy cow, Meredith is a bitch.

So far, the most redeeming moments for me are Alex's jam in the blues bar with his dad and Shane telling off Meredith about Cristina using the 3D printer for the heart valve.

I know it improves in the second half of the season, but I've been FF'ing big chunks of episodes to skip boring storylines and to suppress the urge to throw things at the screen.

But I liked James Remar a lot as Alex's dad. You can see a slight resemblance and similarities in mannerisms. Wish they hadn't killed him off. It would've been interesting to see if they could actually build a semblance of a relationship.

 

The story with Alex's dad really was the most redeeming part of S10, though I still wish some parts had been handled better. I actually didn't dislike the Meredith / Cristina fight as much as most people did, though it really did drag on and then still somehow got a rushed resolution. But I hated Shane always yelling at Meredith. In general he annoyed me, which sucked because I loved the actor on Friday Night Lights. But I never liked his relationship with Cristina or his ego, and especially not his 'breakdown'.

Edited November 18, 2015 by BaseOps

[Artymouse]

Shane's breakdown was awful, and to me very unrealistic. I don't believe an OR team would let a couple of interns perform that surgery without an attending, and that it would take so long for someone to step in when he's basically killing Alex's dad on the OR table.

And I also don't think he would have gotten off so easily in real life. He should have been fired at the very least.

[kingshearte]

And I also don't think he would have gotten off so easily in real life. He should have been fired at the very least.

Sure, but how many of them shouldn't have been fired at some point in the course of the show?

[jaytee1812]

I was watching something on The West Wing which made me realise Amelia's storyline where she's outed as an alcoholic. On TWW the chief of staff, Vice President are both alcoholics, and the Vice President has an AA meeting for them and several other top DC officials.

Anyway in one episode they're discussing their group and someone talks about groups where anonymity is crucial, them, pilots and surgeons. Neither Amelia or Richard should ever have been at an AA meeting with anyone other than other surgeons.

This is assume Sorkin knows more about addiction than Shonda, which I'd bet he does.

[DearEvette]

In the middle of S10 and I am enjoying it more than S9.  For one thing, it uses all of the interns better than S9 did which seemed to really single out Jo.  But the episode I just watched, the one in the aftermath of Leah submitting her sexual harassment claim actually turned Jo's bitch factor on full force.  So the current season episode where she accused  Stephanie of something without proof isn't the first time she's done that.  And Leah had to finally shut Jo down and make her realize that not everything is about her.   First time I ever liked Leah really.

 

I am also liking Emma, weirdly.  Too bad that for some reason the show's romantic philosophy across the board is that these doctors can't seem to be involved with someone unless they are as hardcore doctors are themselves.  Which explains why they can't seem to find romantic partners outside of their small incestuous circle.

[Joana]

  Too bad that for some reason the show's romantic philosophy across the board is that these doctors can't seem to be involved with someone unless they are as hardcore doctors are themselves.  Which explains why they can't seem to find romantic partners outside of their small incestuous circle.

 

And another thing is that no one is enough of a hardcore badass doctor except for the selected few who also happen to be regulars on the show, so their dating pool is really limited to like 5 other people - maybe a few more if they some day decide to explore their other side, like Callie once did. 

Edited November 24, 2015 by Joana

[ShepFreso]

I honestly have to say that not many people enjoyed Shepherd or maybe even the sister, that's probably the reason why they got rid of Derek. I liked his presence and I really would enjoy if the hospital had his name in it. Maybe like GSS Memorial Hospital, Grey Sloan Shepherd Memorial (without the word hospital), or Grey Sloan Shepherd Memorial Hospital. Thought that last one is fairly long, but it can work:) I really like this idea but it may change the directors plans for the show. I also believe they should bring Izzie back and Addison. 

 

Izzie:

I have an idea that would bring suspense to the hospital itself. You know how when Izzie lost Denny she layed on the bathroom floor? They should make her ghost form lay on the floor in the beginning of the episode. Then after a second or two they should have Denny/George show up and standing in front of her. Then Alex should walk in and then they disappear. After awhile of pondering (Maybe an episode and a half) Alex walks up to Mer and blurts it, Mer runs away and cries, screen turns black. Mer is in the girls bathroom on the floor crying, Alex walks in and the pain hit him that she's dead. She never came back and she died. 

 

Addison:

Addison comes back with self doubt that she shouldn't be here. She believes that Derek was her fault, that she made too much of a mistake, and people start to stare. Addison goes right up to Chief Baileys room. All Addison says is Hey and tells how she's been and then leaves. I just need addison to come back to this show, I miss her haha

[BaseOps]

Izzie:

I have an idea that would bring suspense to the hospital itself. You know how when Izzie lost Denny she layed on the bathroom floor? They should make her ghost form lay on the floor in the beginning of the episode. Then after a second or two they should have Denny/George show up and standing in front of her. Then Alex should walk in and then they disappear. After awhile of pondering (Maybe an episode and a half) Alex walks up to Mer and blurts it, Mer runs away and cries, screen turns black. Mer is in the girls bathroom on the floor crying, Alex walks in and the pain hit him that she's dead. She never came back and she died. 

 

Even for Grey's, that's insane lol

[Joana]

There's something I never really got and catching some reruns on TV reminded me of it - where did the whole "Callie is bisexual and Arizona can't handle it" thing come from? There's been literally no mention of it ever since they got together until the episode with their final breakup. Arizona did often feel insecure around Mark, but that hardly has much to do with Callie's sexuality itself. 

In fact, I don't think the word "bisexual" was used in all the seasons after Callie first hooked up with dr Hahn as much as it was in those episodes focusing on their marriage counselling and breakup and immediately after it.

It must have been a way to introduce a male love interest for Callie which they later dropped for some reason. 

[CED9]

They always needed an annual "Remember Callie is bisexual" situation.

S6 it was Mark. S7 it was Mark. S8 it was Owen in the AU episode. S9 they wrote Callie more as Mark's grieving widow and annoyed at Arizona.

However, I think they wrote that more as Callie's perception of Arizona more than actual truth. Because they suck at real communication. Constant mixed signals.

[Joana]

However, I think they wrote that more as Callie's perception of Arizona more than actual truth. Because they suck at real communication. Constant mixed signals.

 

I agree, but it looked like another "Perfect Penny killed my husband" situation. That is, the show taking the (highly dubious) perspective of a single character which somehow goes completely unopposed. Callie's bisexuality surely has to rank pretty low on the list of all things that contributed to the downfall of their marriage, so it seemed absurd to dwell so much on it.

That breakup was a mess. Like Callie saying she'd throw her ex-wife out of the window, which was pretty bizarre and uncalled for as Arizona was completely reasonable about the whole situation although reasonably not thrilled with it. 

[CED9]

I agree, but it looked like another "Perfect Penny killed my husband" situation. That is, the show taking the (highly dubious) perspective of a single character which somehow goes completely unopposed. Callie's bisexuality surely has to rank pretty low on the list of all things that contributed to the downfall of their marriage, so it seemed absurd to dwell so much on it.

That breakup was a mess. Like Callie saying she'd throw her ex-wife out of the window, which was pretty bizarre and uncalled for as Arizona was completely reasonable about the whole situation although reasonably not thrilled with it.

I remember a couple seasons ago, someone on twitter questioned why most of Callie and Arizona's SL's came from Callie's perspective or most of Meredith and Derek's SL's came from Meredith's perspective, etc. and the guy who answered (I think it was an editor, maybe) said that the writers write by cast seniority most of the time. And then he kind of tried to backtrack after he was questioned further. It was such a ridiculous answer to me that it must be true.

[North]

They always needed an annual "Remember Callie is bisexual" situation.

S6 it was Mark. S7 it was Mark. S8 it was Owen in the AU episode. S9 they wrote Callie more as Mark's grieving widow and annoyed at Arizona.

However, I think they wrote that more as Callie's perception of Arizona more than actual truth. Because they suck at real communication. Constant mixed signals.

Are we really counting the AU ep as proof the show wanted to remind people of Callie's bisexuality? That's a reach. It was about showing how inevitable the couples were even in an AU.

In season 9, Callie got annoyed at moments with Arizona, yes, but she loved her and was trying. Mark died and she actually didn't really get to grieve him that much because of the situation with Arizona. He was her best friend and you know what? She was allowed to grieve his death even if she was married to Arizona without being accused of acting like his widow.

I'm not sure you meant it like that, but it almost seems biphobic. As an aside, if something happened to a close female friend of Arizona's or an ex and she grieved for them would she be accused of acting like a widow? Food for thought.

Arizona's initial freak out with regards to dating Callie was because she realized Callie had dated men and Arizona would be her second woman. She thought Callie was going to tell her she was going back to dating men when Callie sat her down to tell her she wanted kids. She was upset she had slept with a man when she came back from Africa. It's canon she had a problem with it and not just Callie's perception. It also wasn't Mark specific.

Edited December 31, 2015 by North

[CED9]

Are we really counting the AU ep as proof the show wanted to remind people of Callie's bisexuality? That's a reach. It was about showing how inevitable the couples were even in an AU.

In season 9, Callie got annoyed at moments with Arizona, yes, but she loved her and was trying. Mark died and she actually didn't really get to grieve him that much because of the situation with Arizona. He was her best friend and you know what she was allowed to grieve his death even if she was married to Arizona without being accused of acting like his widow.

I'm not sure you meant it like that, but it almost seems biphobic. As an aside, if say something happened to a close female friend of Arizona's or an ex and she grieved for them would she be accused of acting like a widow? Food for thought.

Arizona's initial freak out with regards to dating Callie was because she realized Callie had dated men and Arizona would be her second woman. She thought Callie was going to tell her she was going back to dating men when Callie sat her down to tell her she wanted kids. She was upset she had slept with a man when she came back from Africa. It's canon she had a problem with it and not just Callie's perception. It also wasn't Mark specific.

When Sara and Shonda constantly say in interviews that they're writing Callie that way "because, remember she's bi, not gay" I don't consider it a reach. Callie is dating a woman right now because the other half was needed for shock value for other characters. Shonda said that. Period.

Arizona gets what should be big situations that are hers to deal with (her brother's death, her best friends death, her leg, the miscarriage, etc.) and instead they're just used to prop and service other characters. And now she's just mired in comic relief land.

[North]

When Sara and Shonda constantly say in interviews that they're writing Callie that way "because, remember she's bi, not gay" I don't consider it a reach. Callie is dating a woman right now because the other half was needed for shock value for other characters. Shonda said that. Period.

Arizona gets what should be big situations that are hers to deal with (her brother's death, her best friends death, her leg, the miscarriage, etc.) and instead they're just used to prop and service other characters. And now she's just mired in comic relief land.

Sara and Shonda don't and even if they did, who cares? Callie is bisexual. Why is that hard to hear?

They didn't even really talk about it much until the break up happened.

Everything else has nothing to do with the earlier post so I won't comment.

[Chas411]

I'm onto season seven now and few observations.

On rewatch I found I quite liked The additions of April and Avery to the full time cast. It brought back early memories of the original five interns. They fit in nicely.

While I liked Lexie a lot of the time I found her treatment of April quite awful. I also thought she treated Mark badly at times too.

I have always disliked Owen and found McKidd to be an over actor. I hated his love storyline with Teddy but really enjoyed her once she got away from him. I thought she was great to Cristina.

Edited March 16, 2016 by Chas411

[windsprints]

Bringing this over from the Jo thread:

for the last 4-5 seasons, Meredith didn't do much except interact with Derek and Cristina, so once they were gone, its like she was in a sea of strangers, many of who she simply couldn't be bothered with before.  She had Alex, of course, but they dropped any interaction she had with Jackson or April seasons ago.  She never interacted with Arizona and they kind of slapped a Callie/Meredith friendship together in that one season, but that always rang false to me.  So once Cristina left, they had to keep adding all of these characters who would be there to primarily interact with Meredith: Amelia, Maggie, and now Penny.  And now those three and Meredith seem to get more screentime than anyone else, and that certainly doesn't endear any of them to me.

 

I agree. Its easy to see how the cast got so large.  Meredith barely interacts with Richard, acts like April & Jackson are strangers (even though they lived with her) and her interactions with Bailey are all professional. Its too bad they didn't choose to try to reconnect Meredith with the existing characters instead of bringing in the new. She could have developed a personal relationship with Bailey once Meredith became an attending and became more friendly with April, Jackson, Callie, Arizona. Building family via friendships was part of Grey's from the start so I don't think there was really a need for bio family ties to be recreated. Meredith doesn't seem all that close with Maggie and Maggie has almost no relationship with Richard so I don't really see why she is here.  She's not even a love interest for an existing character. Instead they added another character for a love interest.

 

As for Amelia, I think she should have left after Derek died (I am one of the few here who doesn't hate Amelia). I thought it was great for Derek to have some family around when she first arrived but then she became someone to fight with Meredith and be Owen's on again, off again love interest. At least she has that, they didn't need to add another character for her to give her a love interest.

 

[Greysaddict]

I caught an episode of season 9 today (9x20 i think?) where Meredith found out she has the Alzheimers gene.  Meredith and Derek talked about updating their wills and then talked about added healthcare directives. Meredith said she didn't "want to be a potato and no extraordinary measures taken if it's obviously at the end".  Derek never said what he wanted, but it kind of puts Meredith's pulling plug on Derek in perspective*. I find watching old seasons extra interesting now knowing Derek is dead.  I thought it was particularly fitting since his death is still a huge topic of conservation.  

*NOT saying she shouldn't have informed his family before doing so. 

Edited April 27, 2016 by Greysaddict

[Catznip]

First off I'm not a big fan of GA until recently. I watched all of season 2 over the weekend, yes 27 eppys!! It was so good. Question to all Greys watchers, was this the best season, does it get better from this point? I noticed Shonda did most of the writing, could be why the season was good, the writing is much better than season 12. And KH is a helluva actress. 

Edited May 17, 2016 by Catznip

[Joana]

IMO, it doesn't get better. S3 was mostly enjoyable, even though some of the storylines were a mess. S4 is where literally everything falls apart and it continues throughout most of the next season and even S6. Eventually the show does stabilize, but it's never as consistently good again. 

[BaseOps]

S2 was the peak, for sure. But I think S5 is great (some missteps, yes, but also some of my all-time favourite episodes and storylines), and there's great moments throughout the rest. The S6 finale, for instance, is probably the best thing the show has produced. S11 is a low-point, but it's recovered nicely in my opinion. It can improve greatly, but it's still enjoyable and has really great moments. It's fun to still be following so many of these characters after so many years. 

[Joana]

To me, S4 almost felt like a different show. I think a lot of magic was lost when they became residents - watching them getting around to becoming doctors and learning about their profession, each other and themselves was what made the show what it was. With them already teaching new interns (as 2nd year residents - does it really work like that? I didn't find it all that believable and hated that SL), acting like they own the place and with big changes in the cast setting in, the whole feel was entirely different. 

Of course, it was a time Gizzy happened. There was nonsensical OTT mess even before that, but that was the first storyline that really had no redeeming value for anyone involved and was purely played out for shock value. Not the last time, unfortunately. And then Izzie's character proceeded to get so utterly destroyed (although some of it was out of the writers' hands, with all the Heigl drama) that I couldn't really enjoy S5 since she got so much screen time and basically became a co-lead. I felt the show was able to pick up again once she finally left for good, and it turned out that the Mercy West merger was a breath of fresh air. 

Edited May 17, 2016 by Joana

[PepSinger]

In thinking back, do you think S9 or S11 is the worst season on this show? I ask that question because even though S11 was terribly written, I don't know if it felt as dreary as S9 with the plane crash aftermath. I guess the other argument could be that at least S9 felt cohesive whereas S11 is just a fucking mess. Thoughts?

Despite the terrible ghost sex and interns carving themselves up, I really enjoy S5. I love the arc with Derek screwing up that poor woman's surgery, the serial killer, and the eps once Izzie's cancer is discover. "Elevator Love Letter" is in my top ten of my all time favorite episodes. My favorite voiceover is the one in the season finale: "Did you say it?" Love that whole VO.

[Deanie87]

I think that season 11 was worse.  Even though I thought the plane crash/buying of the hospital was awful, there was a lot of good stuff.  Meredith getting pregnant, Cristina and the doctor in that other hospital, her reunion with Meredith, Arizona working her way back to her life, Alex buying Mer's house and living with Cristina, his friendship/relationship with Jo, etc., Alex and Cristina getting closer, Richard getting a lot of good stuff with the Adele situation, Bailey and Ben getting married.  I liked it at the time, but I really like in hindsight.

I truly can't think of one thing that I loved about season 11.  Meredith got a personality transplant and became a huge bitch to everyone for no reason, storyline after storyline got dropped, the overuse of the carousel and then the neverending flashbacks.  And then all of the backstage drama.  Jackson and April losing their baby was really well done, but talk about dreary...

[upperco]

Although I know my opinion is not in keeping with the majority's, I nevertheless found Season Eleven to be an improvement over Seasons Nine and Ten. I thought the quality of the dialogue was better last year and there seemed to be a more concerted effort to keep everyone's voice in character, which was a big complaint I had with the show for a while: everybody sounded exactly the same. The Krista Vernoff era -- a while ago, I know -- was really guilty of this "single voice" phenomenon, but it lingered throughout Season Ten; I thought Cristina was "off" all year. It's not completely resolved, but there's been considerable improvement, likely the result of more attention being paid to detail. 

I think the eleventh year's biggest flaws had to do with the pacing and the way material was distributed amongst the only-half worthwhile ensemble (too much Amelia, too little Alex), but those failings have been endemic to the show since, at least, Season Four, so I didn't find it an issue unique to Season Eleven. In fact, I think the renewed focus on Meredith -- the seeds of which were planted during Season Ten as the show rediscovered its lead while giving us a year-long, self-indulgent "farewell Cristina" arc -- compensated for the structural deficiencies because the scripts once again had an emotional center that naturally called for a shift in operation. It wasn't justifiable to many, but as I've always believed Meredith's usage vital to the show's narrative "health", I thought the plotting problems were a necessary evil in which the end (thematic cohesion, concentrated stories, a sense of history) was justified by the means. *This is probably the root of where my opinion differs from most, who didn't find the accompanying changes worthwhile.*

As we've discussed a lot this past year, the killing of Derek, despite occurring in a horrendously written episode, was vital in shaking up the show, generating buzz, freeing up the budget, giving everyone new material to play, and further justifying Meredith's place as the show's nucleus (or "sun" -- as goes the contrived metaphor). The enhanced creativity and new attention to the show, by both the audience and the creative team (seemingly led now by Debbie Allen), left a lot of possibilities open for exploration in Season Twelve, and I think the show did a better job than it's done in a LONG time of seizing these opportunities while not contriving them. Of course, there are notable exceptions, like 12x09, and Penny, and the Callie/Arizona custody arc, but this is GREY'S, and we fans have become accustomed to excusing missteps. I personally felt there were fewer to excuse than there have been in years past. 

As for Season Nine, I think it is the most creatively bankrupt of the series' run, even though there have been lower moments in ensuing years (specifically Ten). The plane crash arc, which turned into the hospital buying arc, was really a black hole into which the series unfortunately got sucked, making for long stretches of episodes that I thought were almost entirely unenjoyable. Meanwhile, the addition of four new interns all at once made integrating them into the cast difficult, especially because most of the regular players were playing the same-old, same-old stuff. Incidentally, one of the only things I liked about the year came at the very end: the bold decision to have Arizona cheat on Callie -- which, in my opinion, was the only genuine surprise in between the plane crash and Derek's death, and a place that I don't think many believed the show would go. But it made sense given how messed up Arizona had been all year, which is why it worked as a surprise that felt motivated by a character, not by a writer --unlike, say, that aforementioned plane crash. 

The truth about GREY'S is that every year has seemed better in hindsight, as new lows are continually being set. I used to think Season Six was awful. Until I saw Season Seven. I used to think Season Eight was boring. Until I saw Season Nine. The writing was very obviously declining with each passing year, as was my interest. So, naturally I thought the show would continue its gradual descent, but after seeing these past two seasons, I now think the downward slope has been (temporarily) halted and it's, at the very least, maintaining its narrative quality. Maybe even getting better... 

In fact, I'd say Season Twelve was a comparatively great year for a show with this amount of longevity, and I'd find it difficult to claim that this success just came out of nowhere. No -- it came from the, at times problematic, eleventh season, in which the show reclaimed its lead and then eventually made the decision (axing Derek) that would allow her to thrive in Season Twelve. It was the smartest thing they've done since I can remember, and it has directly impacted the show's quality, aiding a trend that I think was already in forward motion... but needed a big jolt to get there. 

Edited May 22, 2016 by upperco

[upperco]

This post was edited because I found it redundant -- sorry! 

Edited May 22, 2016 by upperco

[Pinecone]

Grey's is that conditioning experiment where the rat keeps hitting the lever in hopes of getting a treat. Each season has something I really like ( the feminism debates and moments of seasons 10-12, Alex and Jo, Christina's stay at Mayo, etc.) covered in terrible plot, inconsistent character development, and dumb. But when I rewatch, I notice that things hang together and build upon each other better than when seen week by week. I'm rewatching Seasons 7-8 and it's not good--Teddy is the big black hole, Owen is beginning to become super terrible and overbearing, the race for chief resident, blah blah Alzheimer's. 

[hiccup]

I have a question about a particular episode, but can't find a "question" thread.  Anyway, I vaguely remember an episode (early on in the series, I believe) that had a young couple come in where the woman thought she had the flu and it turned out she had cancer (I can't remember which type) and she ended up dying that day or very soon after.  Does anyone remember which episode, or even which season that was?

[BaseOps]

A friend of mine just started the series on Netflix and I spent some time with her over the weekend and caught a good long chunk of season 2 episodes. I really, really miss the days of George, Izzie, Burke, etc. It also really drove home what I have said about the series for years now: it works best with a tighter cast and when everyone is somehow connected. Now generally I say it works best with Meredith as the anchor, but even beyond that - the earliest seasons, even outside of Meredith, every character had great interactions. George / Addison, Bailey / Mark, Burke / Meredith, Derek / Richard... everyone in the cast got enough screen time to keep their stories and development moving along at an acceptable pace, and everyone had unique relationships with everyone else in the cast. These days it feels like we're just watching a bunch of random doctors in a hospital, and many of the relationships are so contrived (the 'sisters' thing will forever drive me nuts.) I can't remember a single interaction between Steph and Callie, for example. I can't fathom why DeLuca was ever made a regular. 

I had really hoped that the end of this season would see a few characters departing... unfortunately, much of the dead weight stuck around and instead we lost Callie (which, I know, was out of Shonda's hands.) To me, there's nothing exciting or interesting about DeLuca, Steph, Ben, etc. I also don't really have any vested interest in Maggie or Amelia. I wish that somewhere along the line they took the time to integrate Jo with the cast better, instead of just adding in even more new characters. As much as the writers may try this year, I don't know that I'll ever fully warm up to Jo at this point because the ball has just been dropped for so long. When there are so many storylines going on at once, it always results in the stories either being rushed, too slow, or not given enough development. I miss when every character appeared in every episode for a good chunk of time. I miss when - even if I disliked a character - I understood their motivations and I was down to watch their journey. I know change is inevitable, and I realize new blood is always needed especially in a show like this, but with 4 of the original stars still around, I hope there's a conscious effort in S13 to really give Meredith, Alex, Richard and Bailey some focus. Play off of their history. I really hope we don't get any new regulars this year. The cast is already so bloated and there's more than enough to work with. 

Edited June 6, 2016 by BaseOps

[Marni]

On 6/7/2016 at 0:59 AM, BaseOps said:

A friend of mine just started the series on Netflix and I spent some time with her over the weekend and caught a good long chunk of season 2 episodes. I really, really miss the days of George, Izzie, Burke, etc. It also really drove home what I have said about the series for years now: it works best with a tighter cast and when everyone is somehow connected. Now generally I say it works best with Meredith as the anchor, but even beyond that - the earliest seasons, even outside of Meredith, every character had great interactions. George / Addison, Bailey / Mark, Burke / Meredith, Derek / Richard... everyone in the cast got enough screen time to keep their stories and development moving along at an acceptable pace, and everyone had unique relationships with everyone else in the cast. These days it feels like we're just watching a bunch of random doctors in a hospital, and many of the relationships are so contrived (the 'sisters' thing will forever drive me nuts.) I can't remember a single interaction between Steph and Callie, for example. I can't fathom why DeLuca was ever made a regular. 

I had really hoped that the end of this season would see a few characters departing... unfortunately, much of the dead weight stuck around and instead we lost Callie (which, I know, was out of Shonda's hands.) To me, there's nothing exciting or interesting about DeLuca, Steph, Ben, etc. I also don't really have any vested interest in Maggie or Amelia. I wish that somewhere along the line they took the time to integrate Jo with the cast better, instead of just adding in even more new characters. As much as the writers may try this year, I don't know that I'll ever fully warm up to Jo at this point because the ball has just been dropped for so long. When there are so many storylines going on at once, it always results in the stories either being rushed, too slow, or not given enough development. I miss when every character appeared in every episode for a good chunk of time. I miss when - even if I disliked a character - I understood their motivations and I was down to watch their journey. I know change is inevitable, and I realize new blood is always needed especially in a show like this, but with 4 of the original stars still around, I hope there's a conscious effort in S13 to really give Meredith, Alex, Richard and Bailey some focus. Play off of their history. I really hope we don't get any new regulars this year. The cast is already so bloated and there's more than enough to work with. 

I totally agree about the lack of connection between characters these days. There used to be such distinct dynamics between characters. Even for those that didn't have a particularly strong relationship, e.g. George and Cristina, there was still a connection between them and a specific dynamic that made their interactions interesting. Now there seems to be a mixture of characters who have no relationship with each other and those that did in previous seasons but rarely interact anymore, e.g. Alex with April and Jackson.

I really noticed the disconnect with the Stephanie/Kyle's Izzie/Denny redux story. As well as it not being built up well enough Steph/Kyle had zero impact for me because Stephanie is so isolated, Jo and Amelia kind of cared but were focused on their own drama. With Izzie there were so many people connected to her it reverberated throughout the entire show and affected everyone. 3x01 with Izzie on the bathroom floor was such a great episode, it managed to focus on Izzie's grief while also giving everyone else something substantial. Even Callie and Finn got interesting scenes.

It also annoys me that they don't utilise obvious connections, like April and Amelia have gone through such similar experiences with their babies and yet haven't spoken. They could have given them a small moment together, them striking up a conversation outside the nursery looking at babies or in the chapel, working on a pregnant women together etc. It could have been a powerful scene and even it it doesn't become a fully fledged friendship (since Amelia has to be with her 'sisters') it establishes a relationship between them and gives their future scenes more depth.  

[RealityCowgirl]

I miss the Alpha surgeons: Burke, Sloan, Montgomery, Yang, Shepherd and now Torres. 

Robbins and Karev still have their moments, but Webber and Bailey are shadows of their former selves. And I'm sorry. But Meredith Grey is not now, nor will she ever be, "The Sun." Perfectly competent surgeon, yes. Center of a show named after her, fine. But not the kick-ass surgical rock stars that the others were.

The rest - including Hunt - are medical fillers for me. On a hospital-based show, that's a problem.

[BaseOps]

8 hours ago, Marni said:

I totally agree about the lack of connection between characters these days. There used to be such distinct dynamics between characters. Even for those that didn't have a particularly strong relationship, e.g. George and Cristina, there was still a connection between them and a specific dynamic that made their interactions interesting. Now there seems to be a mixture of characters who have no relationship with each other and those that did in previous seasons but rarely interact anymore, e.g. Alex with April and Jackson.

I really noticed the disconnect with the Stephanie/Kyle's Izzie/Denny redux story. As well as it not being built up well enough Steph/Kyle had zero impact for me because Stephanie is so isolated, Jo and Amelia kind of cared but were focused on their own drama. With Izzie there were so many people connected to her it reverberated throughout the entire show and affected everyone. 3x01 with Izzie on the bathroom floor was such a great episode, it managed to focus on Izzie's grief while also giving everyone else something substantial. Even Callie and Finn got interesting scenes.

It also annoys me that they don't utilise obvious connections, like April and Amelia have gone through such similar experiences with their babies and yet haven't spoken. They could have given them a small moment together, them striking up a conversation outside the nursery looking at babies or in the chapel, working on a pregnant women together etc. It could have been a powerful scene and even it it doesn't become a fully fledged friendship (since Amelia has to be with her 'sisters') it establishes a relationship between them and gives their future scenes more depth.  

You hit the nail on the head with the Steph / Kyle storyline for me. It just didn't affect me at all and overall added nothing to the show because the characters aren't part of any greater narrative. In the following episode they literally gave Steph 20 seconds of dialogue. They need to start developing connections for the characters that they want to keep around rather than having them exist in little bubbles and throwing random stories at them here and there. Like what you pointed out: I can't even think of a single April / Amelia interaction. Or Jackson / Amelia. Everyone is just so far apart. With Callie gone, we have one less character that had deep history with several other doctors (Meredith, Bailey, Richard, Arizona, Owen, etc.) They didn't even explore so much of that in her final season, which really irks me (though, I know Sara apparently left pretty last-minute).

I'm hoping next year they do what I've been thinking they should have done the past few years if they're determined to keep the cast so huge: focus on half-seasons with different characters taking the lead in each chunk, and the the other characters playing supporting parts in those stories. At least that way we get to follow concrete narratives from beginning to end. For example: 

Episode 1 - 12 focuses primarily on: 
Meredith / Riggs / Maggie / Amelia / Owen / Alex / Jo / Bailey / Ben 

Episode 13 - 24 focuses on: 

Meredith / Riggs / April / Jackson / Arizona / Richard / Steph / DeLuca

Now, I don't mean all stories for Alex / Jo / Amelia, etc. should suddenly stop in 13 - 24, just that the focus should shift primary to the characters who were less served in the first half. It could also allow them to throw together some unorthodox pairings: give us 3-4 episode patient arc where Meredith / Jackson / Owen / Ben have to work together, for example. Put Riggs, Richard and Steph on a case together. Anything. Just mix it up. And tell complete, fully developed stories that don't include time jumps or stopping and starting. 

Edited June 24, 2016 by BaseOps

[apn85]

20 hours ago, Marni said:

It also annoys me that they don't utilise obvious connections, like April and Amelia have gone through such similar experiences with their babies and yet haven't spoken. They could have given them a small moment together, them striking up a conversation outside the nursery looking at babies or in the chapel, working on a pregnant women together etc. It could have been a powerful scene and even it it doesn't become a fully fledged friendship (since Amelia has to be with her 'sisters') it establishes a relationship between them and gives their future scenes more depth.  

I agree completely!!

There are numerous examples, but the April/Amelia thing is a glaring one. It's like you have this real potential to tell a powerful story that could resonate with a lot of viewers and nope....not gonna go there. I always wondered why they didn't touch on it. Not only would it have given Amelia more of a background (lots of viewers don't know her from PP), but it had the potential to be a really beautiful story line. Oh well, ship sailed. 

I do miss the days of everyone being connected to one another. I feel like getting away from that really took away from those powerful episodes that left you sobbing by the end of it. Rather than everyone being invested in said story line and it being an hour of just really good, raw emotion....it's like everyone is off in their own little world. Everyone seems to be a part of some sort of clique and there are so many of them that it's hard to get as emotionally invested as I did in the olden days because in order to get everyone the air time to tell their clique's story ALL the stories have to be rushed. I understand the need for a larger cast. Realistically, you do have new interns/residents/etc coming in all of the time. However, like it was said by someone up above, if there were more connections made then a larger cast wouldn't be such a problem. 

It's also completely unrealistic. I work in a hospital and you get so incredibly close to your co-workers, because you feel like you spend every waking hour together, that everyone knows everything about each other. We've gone to funerals for family members, weddings when one of us got married, vacations together, babysitting each other's kids, heck I've even been there for the birth of two of my co-worker's children! All I'm saying is in a hospital where emotions run high, you depend on one another in stressful life or death situations, and you are together SO much....you know what is going on with one another. Even if you don't really like the person, you are there. They are part of your tribe. I'm sure people in other jobs feel the same way. 

That is how Grey's used to be portrayed! That needs to be found again!!! It's just lost that sense of reality it had in the beginning and it is a shame.

[Marni]

On 6/25/2016 at 3:52 AM, BaseOps said:

You hit the nail on the head with the Steph / Kyle storyline for me. It just didn't affect me at all and overall added nothing to the show because the characters aren't part of any greater narrative. In the following episode they literally gave Steph 20 seconds of dialogue. They need to start developing connections for the characters that they want to keep around rather than having them exist in little bubbles and throwing random stories at them here and there. Like what you pointed out: I can't even think of a single April / Amelia interaction. Or Jackson / Amelia. Everyone is just so far apart. With Callie gone, we have one less character that had deep history with several other doctors (Meredith, Bailey, Richard, Arizona, Owen, etc.) They didn't even explore so much of that in her final season, which really irks me (though, I know Sara apparently left pretty last-minute).

I'm hoping next year they do what I've been thinking they should have done the past few years if they're determined to keep the cast so huge: focus on half-seasons with different characters taking the lead in each chunk, and the the other characters playing supporting parts in those stories. At least that way we get to follow concrete narratives from beginning to end. For example: 

Episode 1 - 12 focuses primarily on: 
Meredith / Riggs / Maggie / Amelia / Owen / Alex / Jo / Bailey / Ben 

Episode 13 - 24 focuses on: 

Meredith / Riggs / April / Jackson / Arizona / Richard / Steph / DeLuca

Now, I don't mean all stories for Alex / Jo / Amelia, etc. should suddenly stop in 13 - 24, just that the focus should shift primary to the characters who were less served in the first half. It could also allow them to throw together some unorthodox pairings: give us 3-4 episode patient arc where Meredith / Jackson / Owen / Ben have to work together, for example. Put Riggs, Richard and Steph on a case together. Anything. Just mix it up. And tell complete, fully developed stories that don't include time jumps or stopping and starting. 

That's an interesting idea. I do have some hesitations about that structure because for me personally I'm not interested in all the characters anymore, like in the early seasons. Now days there are many weak characters I don't care about so if most or all of the characters I was invested in were in the background for that long a stretch of time I think I'd lose interest, especially with the two hiatuses being so long. But in general I do think more thorough planning of the overall season would improve the show a great deal, the Riggs/Owen stuff is proof of that. We know from interviews they were making it up on the fly, they just kept dragging it out with no end goal in mind and there ended up being zero payoff, it just kind of fizzled out. I found it so tiresome to watch and looking back now all the time they spent on it seems rather pointless.

23 hours ago, apn85 said:

I agree completely!!

There are numerous examples, but the April/Amelia thing is a glaring one. It's like you have this real potential to tell a powerful story that could resonate with a lot of viewers and nope....not gonna go there. I always wondered why they didn't touch on it. Not only would it have given Amelia more of a background (lots of viewers don't know her from PP), but it had the potential to be a really beautiful story line. Oh well, ship sailed. 

I do still have a tiny bit of delusional hope for some April/Amelia interaction later in the season if Amelia and Owen start talking about children. If Amelia has concerns about being pregnant again, April would the perfect person for her to talk to, and she's close to Owen.

Edited June 26, 2016 by Marni