S03.E08: In the Line of Fire

[Impatient]

Totally agreed Scarlett45 but i am not yet on sold on this being as prevalent as it has recently been suggested to be  And i do believe this is a form of body integrity identity disorder.  I remain convinced that part of this is mental illness (which may or may not have a physical root cause.  And if that is eventually tested and proved to be true, i don't think it'll matter how old the patient is.  because in those cases even perfect Jazz like transgender girls will never be satisfied with any outcomes...

[PrincessPurrsALot]

Folks,

As always, let's focus on the show, not every possible related issue.  We are not here to debate the experience of transgender people overall.  We are talking about Jazz, one transgender teen girl who is featured on a reality TV show, her family and the experiences she and her TV friends share. 

Thanks, and happy posting!

[orangeiguana]

On 8/9/2017 at 9:03 PM, MegD said:

Since when does anyone snorkel in muddy water? What the hell was that?

After taking scuba classes at home in a pool, you are required to do four "checkout dives" in open water. The ocean was too rough that day to go off the boat in deeper water, so this was the scuba company's more sheltered alternative so they could get the four dives done to get certified.

[msrachelj]

12 hours ago, Impatient said:

Totally agreed Scarlett45 but i am not yet on sold on this being as prevalent as it has recently been suggested to be  And i do believe this is a form of body integrity identity disorder.  I remain convinced that part of this is mental illness (which may or may not have a physical root cause.  And if that is eventually tested and proved to be true, i don't think it'll matter how old the patient is.  because in those cases even perfect Jazz like transgender girls will never be satisfied with any outcomes...

i have wondered about this also. would it be helpful to get a very young child who identifies as different from what they born, into intense psychotherapy with a dr. who specializes in such a thing. before it is too late to start hormone therapy while still young enough, as jazz did, to avoid the for instance, more masculine look later on. . although obviously (vagina) that has it's drawbacks. i don't know. certainly no expert here but this topic is so prevalent today you can't help but be interested.

[MegD]

2 hours ago, orangeiguana said:

On 8/9/2017 at 11:03 PM, MegD said:

Since when does anyone snorkel in muddy water? What the hell was that?

After taking scuba classes at home in a pool, you are required to do four "checkout dives" in open water. The ocean was too rough that day to go off the boat in deeper water, so this was the scuba company's more sheltered alternative so they could get the four dives done to get certified.

I know that is what was said, but murky water wouldn't be my first choice if I was taking people for "checkout dives". It's too easy for something to go really wrong. For example, even though there was boom (the blue floating things in the water), separating the dive area from boating areas, it was so murky and the boom had no skirting (a continuation below the waterline) to prevent divers from swimming past it. Had Jeanette kept swimming in a boating area, she could have easily been hit by a boat or cut by a propeller because she couldn't see where she was. (Although there is a part of me that would love that outcome.) If you're trying to get a group of people certified, you are dealing with people who don't have experience and who need dives set up to be as safe as possible. Doing otherwise is irresponsible.

[Scarlett45]

1 hour ago, msrachelj said:

i have wondered about this also. would it be helpful to get a very young child who identifies as different from what they born, into intense psychotherapy with a dr. who specializes in such a thing. before it is too late to start hormone therapy while still young enough, as jazz did, to avoid the for instance, more masculine look later on. . although obviously (vagina) that has it's drawbacks. i don't know. certainly no expert here but this topic is so prevalent today you can't help but be interested.

This sounds like Jazz. Hasn't Jazz been in regular therapy (of and on) since she was 4? (I thought so but I might be wrong)

She didn't start any type of medical transition until the age where puberty would've taken place regardless. 

Edited August 12, 2017 by Scarlett45

[Impatient]

"Had Jeanette kept swimming in a boating area, she could have easily been hit by a boat or cut by a propeller because she couldn't see where she was. (Although there is a part of me that would love that outcome.)".

made me laugh MegD!  ;)

 

Scarlett45, I think Jazz WAS in therapy enough to know she didn't like it, but as a continual ongoing thing?  Possible but the reason I don't think so is that in one of the talking heads episodes, Jeanette said, Jazz really hated therapy but now there wont be any discussion, she will have to go to get surgical approval.  

And then in the car Jazz said, "Do you honestly think some stranger is going to know how I feel?"  

All of which mystifies me.  I love therapy.   Why does Jazz not have any interest in understanding what is happening to her?

On Columbo once (I have all the DVDs) Columbo was working with a psychologist and he said "Everybody is their own most fascinating subject.  I could listen to someone talk about me for hours."  

Amen, lieutenant!  Amen!  :)

 

[Twopper]

Maybe it is just me, but the break between jr and sr years of  high school seems to be taking an unnecessary chance.  I am not sure of the recovery time, but it seems that it would be several months at best and longer if there are complications.  Also I would think that if they are doing skin grafts from her thighs, they would have to use skin expanders which would add time.  I would also expect she may have post op depression.  If she did it between sr year and freshman year of college, she could always start college a semester late.  It might really mess her up academically if she had to skip the fall semester of high school.  I think Jazz and her parents have unrealistic expectations.

[orangeiguana]

2 hours ago, MegD said:

I know that is what was said, but murky water wouldn't be my first choice if I was taking people for "checkout dives". It's too easy for something to go really wrong. For example, even though there was boom (the blue floating things in the water), separating the dive area from boating areas, it was so murky and the boom had no skirting (a continuation below the waterline) to prevent divers from swimming past it. Had Jeanette kept swimming in a boating area, she could have easily been hit by a boat or cut by a propeller because she couldn't see where she was. (Although there is a part of me that would love that outcome.) If you're trying to get a group of people certified, you are dealing with people who don't have experience and who need dives set up to be as safe as possible. Doing otherwise is irresponsible.

I'm a scuba dive master. In Florida, there are few bodies of water that would be suitable if the ocean is rough. This was likely the only suitable place at all in salt water. If you go inland to freshwater lakes (my dive master training was in the sinkholes at Crystal River) requires different training, equipment, and you will need to load up all the equipment to get there. Boats run over people in the open ocean, too. My experience with checkout dives is that there's no optimal situation, people indeed get confused easily, and the instructor was at fault for not keeping up with all the divers. And I love your snarky Jeanette comment lol. 

[MegD]

1 minute ago, Impatient said:

Scarlett45, I think Jazz WAS in therapy enough to know she didn't like it, but as a continual ongoing thing?  Possible but the reason I don't think so is that in one of the talking heads episodes, Jeanette said, Jazz really hated therapy but now there wont be any discussion, she will have to go to get surgical approval.  

And then in the car Jazz said, "Do you honestly think some stranger is going to know how I feel?"  

All of which mystifies me.  I love therapy.   Why does Jazz not have any interest in understanding what is happening to her?

I suspect that the reason Jazz dislikes therapy is that she was unable to manipulate the therapist. She wants to remain selectively ignorant of certain ideas and concepts. She only wants to hear that she's right. I've got a few friends who hate therapy and who would never admit that it is the reason, but they are the ones that can manipulate the people around them to get what they want. In many ways, Jazz does this. I don't know if she's doing this on purpose or if it's learned behavior, but we've all remarked on how Jazz rarely hears the word no. Jazz is the center of the family's world and what Jazz wants, Jazz gets. I think that may be why they see Cousin Debbie as a great thing. She's family so she knows the drill about keeping Jazz happy. Unfortunately, Jazz is going to have to speak with 2 therapists before getting her surgery so she'll have to venture outside of Cousin Debbie (hopefully not Cousin Debbie's partner). For Jazz's sake, I would hope that she's going to have to meet with therapists who are impartial instead of just yes-people.

[Impatient]

Awww man MegD, you are so totally on target with this!!!!

"I suspect that the reason Jazz dislikes therapy is that she was unable to manipulate the therapist. She wants to remain selectively ignorant of certain ideas and concepts. She only wants to hear that she's right. I've got a few friends who hate therapy and who would never admit that it is the reason, but they are the ones that can manipulate the people around them to get what they want. In many ways, Jazz does this. I don't know if she's doing this on purpose or if it's learned behavior, but we've all remarked on how Jazz rarely hears the word no. Jazz is the center of the family's world and what Jazz wants, Jazz gets. I think that may be why they see Cousin Debbie as a great thing. She's family so she knows the drill about keeping Jazz happy. Unfortunately, Jazz is going to have to speak with 2 therapists before getting her surgery so she'll have to venture outside of Cousin Debbie (hopefully not Cousin Debbie's partner). For Jazz's sake, I would hope that she's going to have to meet with therapists who are impartial instead of just yes-people."

 

SOOOOO true.    Jazz IS the center of their world and what she wants is what she gets.  I suspect that is  big part of why the siblings are so much less present than they were.  But you know, honestly, if she is going to go thru any kind of therapy that would be meaningfully insightful, I can't help but think Jeanette has to be part of it too, including her own need for attention.  And god how they would get through any kind of therapy in the time frame they have given themselves is impossible for me to imagine.  REAL therapy can take years and progress is slow.  It means having to come to our OWN realizations about yourself and that just takes time, time, time.  Because you spend your life fighting it.  When it finally becomes clear, you may have chosen pathways that cannot be backtracked on.  

But maybe the Jennings will only do what they have always done, namely find doctors who agree with Jeanette.  That,  by definition, takes only enough time to say, "Jeanette is right".  How sad....  You know Greg is the ONE person who could put the brakes on all of this and i just do not see him doing that.

 

[Impatient]

orangeiguana, I used to live in Utah and they have these weird sort of caverns filled with water from hotsprings.  Several of them are round, almost like bubbles in the earth's surface.  It was so fun to go there and swim in the hot mineral water, which is lit from underneath by lots of spot lights.  And they had special reserved times for scuba divers:  classes and certifications.  The water is crystal clear and you can look at the walls of the caves and the strata and the colors.  so awesome.  

So don't they have similar kinds of things in Florida?

Edited August 12, 2017 by Impatient

[orangeiguana]

Impatient, yes they do, and I mentioned that this sort of place is where I did my dive master training. But for a group of five (four? can't remember) to take a two hour trip inland for just the checkout dives would be unreasonable, given the travel and toting all the equipment. I did my training at Crystal River, but that was a two-hour drive from Orlando. I must say that the "losing" of the mom was pretty funny, and she did not get hurt. I guess the Swaroski gems on her geezer goggles reflected off the scuba mask and disoriented her? (I wear geezer goggles, but just not blinged out) I dived in a couple of similarly disgusting locations getting certified, so it is not unusual.

[Otter]

I'm so done with Jeanette and this show.  I watched it this afternoon and the lack of self-awareness is stunning.  I'm no fan of Glen Beck, or Blaze, in fact I've only clicked on blaze by mistake on a subject I was curious about.   I can say the same about HuffPo.   I didn't know who Tomi is, but she's the hater with preconceived beliefs?  I don't like it when ANYONE wants me to agree with them and be on board with all things "just because".  Jeanette is a relativist and taught Jazz well.  Only their truth matters and we've seen that with Jeanette's own father.  

I thought Tomi was looking for information and I thought Jazz did well.  It's Jeanette who is the bomb thrower.  She all but told Jazz that Tomi wasn't looking for common ground even though Jazz didn't take it that way.  Jazz quickly changed back to Tomi being just another hater.  I guess I am too.  

I still firmly believe that little Jazz had no such thoughts about being a boy since she could verbalize.  Her entire transgender testimony is coached IMO.  But Jazz is now who she is.  Hopefully she will one day find some peace but that probably won't happen until she cuts her toxic mother out of her life.  Jeanette would make an entire pyche textbook.  

All my opinion.  

[jacksgirl]

14 hours ago, Impatient said:

Awww man MegD, you are so totally on target with this!!!!

"I suspect that the reason Jazz dislikes therapy is that she was unable to manipulate the therapist. She wants to remain selectively ignorant of certain ideas and concepts. She only wants to hear that she's right. I've got a few friends who hate therapy and who would never admit that it is the reason, but they are the ones that can manipulate the people around them to get what they want. In many ways, Jazz does this. I don't know if she's doing this on purpose or if it's learned behavior, but we've all remarked on how Jazz rarely hears the word no. Jazz is the center of the family's world and what Jazz wants, Jazz gets. I think that may be why they see Cousin Debbie as a great thing. She's family so she knows the drill about keeping Jazz happy. Unfortunately, Jazz is going to have to speak with 2 therapists before getting her surgery so she'll have to venture outside of Cousin Debbie (hopefully not Cousin Debbie's partner). For Jazz's sake, I would hope that she's going to have to meet with therapists who are impartial

 

Never been to therapy, but know it is a positive thing for many people. Question, I assume a person seeking therapy should not use a family member as a counselor/therapist. I can see Jeanette running to Cousin Debbie to find out what was discussed in sessions.  To stay on topic,  I watched a bit of the Evancho family show and Juliet had bottom surgery and barely graduated high school due to a long recovery time. The Jennings need to really think the timing over. Jazz gets what she wants when she wants, but she is a child and adults need to be in charge here. 

[Impatient]

Agreed Jacksgirl.  

 

Marci Bowers said she would use as her vaginoplasty building material the abdominal skin from Jazz's abdomen,  sort of like the area covered by a bikini bottom.  

That is a lot of skin and they take the dermal layer too, so it goes all the way to underlying fascia and muscle.  So Jazz is going to need a long time to recover just from that!  Can't imagine at the same time having to deal with the penile surgery (though I think they aren't going to do the penile inversion right?  Didn't Dr. Bowers say that was going to be Jazz's clitoris?).  Those girls at the Bed and Breakfast in Pennsylvania, when the Jenningses were seeing Dr. McGinn said it was the worst pain they had ever experienced in their lives, right?

 

I think thinking this can happen over a summer is very naive.

 

Plus, how is Jazz going to feel about the abdominal skin scarring?  All this effort goes in to being the flawless female and now a visible reminder she is trans, even post-op.

Edited August 13, 2017 by Impatient

[stacyasp]

Was cousin Debbie a transgender specialist before or after jazz realized she was in the wrong body?

[ClareWalks]

9 minutes ago, MidwestIndy said:

IMO, Jazz believes that taking estrogen with a vagina will enable her to have a female's monthly periods, as well as being fertile, producing eggs, and able to bear children.

This is false. In previous seasons we have seen Jazz speak clearly about not being able to have her own children, and expecting Ari to get pregnant FOR her and be a surrogate, giving up her own biological child(ren) so Jazz can be a mom.

[MidwestIndy]

1 hour ago, ClareWalks said:

This is false. In previous seasons we have seen Jazz speak clearly about not being able to have her own children, and expecting Ari to get pregnant FOR her and be a surrogate, giving up her own biological child(ren) so Jazz can be a mom.

Glad to know, but I still do not trust Jeanette.

[Granny58]

1 hour ago, ClareWalks said:

This is false. In previous seasons we have seen Jazz speak clearly about not being able to have her own children, and expecting Ari to get pregnant FOR her and be a surrogate, giving up her own biological child(ren) so Jazz can be a mom.

:-O

[Impatient]

Yes, Cousin debbie was a transgender specialist before Jazz was born.

[doodlebug]

4 hours ago, ClareWalks said:

This is false. In previous seasons we have seen Jazz speak clearly about not being able to have her own children, and expecting Ari to get pregnant FOR her and be a surrogate, giving up her own biological child(ren) so Jazz can be a mom.

And, once again, another indication of Jazz' selfish, unrealistic expectations that everyone and everything must be bent to her will.  Even if Ari offered to do this unsolicited (I can see Jeannette telling Ari she will do it whether she wants to or not),  there is no guarantee that her own health or fertility or lifestyle would permit it; nor that she might not want to interfere with her own childbearing when Jazz decides that it is time for Ari to have a baby and give it to her.  I don't picture Jazz much caring if Ari has job issues or a husband/partner who wants to have a child first or if there are medical factors involved; whatever Jazz wants, Jazz gets and nobody tells her otherwise.

Edited August 13, 2017 by doodlebug

[xls]

On ‎8‎/‎9‎/‎2017 at 9:32 PM, SuzyLee said:

I'm loving this new surgeon.  "We don't ask 'What's your erect penis size?' on a first date."  Indeed, Dr. Marcy.  I Iike the fact that she is transgender as well.  It adds a bit of authority to her advice.  Also, in watching Jazz and her parents visit surgeon after surgeon, I've often wondered why no one has proposed a simple (well, "simple") skin graft from her abdomen or upper thighs to compensate for the lack of raw material, so to speak.  It seems like it would be a hell of a lot easier than using a portion of her colon, for God's sake.

Ive seen her on another documentary I'm sure, she seems very competent & caring.

[Otter]

Here's an excerpt from an interview in Cosmo in 2015:

 

C -- I read a Twitter chat you did where you said the hardest part of being trans is not being able to have your own biological child. Why does that stand out now, even though you’re so young?

J --  It’s really hard for me to look at that because with such an amazing mom, I always wanted to be the greatest mom ever. People say, "Oh, you can always adopt," and I completely agree with that. I can adopt. But, like, I’ll never have that moment where she comes out of my vag and I can say, "That’s my baby." But since my sister has my same DNA, I’m convincing her to carry the baby for me.

C -- Oh, good! It can come out of her vag.

J  -- We’ll take my hubby’s sperm and throw it in there and fertilize it.
 

Entire interview here:

http://www.cosmopolitan.com/entertainment/tv/a40068/jazz-jennings-internets-most-fascinating/

Edited August 13, 2017 by Otter

[Broken Ox]

The Bold & The Beautiful did this exact storyline.

Edited August 13, 2017 by Broken Ox
name correct soap

[TwirlyGirly]

1 hour ago, Otter said:

Here's an excerpt from an interview in Cosmo in 2015:

<snip>

Entire interview here:

http://www.cosmopolitan.com/entertainment/tv/a40068/jazz-jennings-internets-most-fascinating/

I'll bet we're all relieved we're not being held accountable now for things we may have said/assumed or expectations we may have had when we were 14 years old, huh? 

 

It's interesting, though, when we look back over the years, at how much we've changed and matured. I'm sure a lot of what we were as teens is probably pretty embarrassing to many of us! 

 

But we DID mature, and there's no reason to believe a bright young woman like Jazz likewise won't look at many things differently when she has a few more years under her belt than she did when she was 14, or even at the age she is now.

[Otter]

18 minutes ago, TwirlyGirly said:

I'll bet we're all relieved we're not being held accountable now for things we may have said/assumed or expectations we may have had when we were 14 years old, huh? 

 

It's interesting, though, when we look back over the years, at how much we've changed and matured. I'm sure a lot of what we were as teens is probably pretty embarrassing to many of us! 

 

But we DID mature, and there's no reason to believe a bright young woman like Jazz likewise won't look at many things differently when she has a few more years under her belt than she did when she was 14, or even at the age she is now.

That's very true since no teens are fully "cooked", either brainwise or experiencewise.  The difference as I see it, is that Jazz is an activist for TG teens and is a spokesperson; that's unique no matter what the subject.  In that role that she embraces, she DOES need to be held accountable for her words used in her public role.  Now being older, maybe should could clarify statements she made 2 years ago.  She has  the platform to do so and that would show she's maturing.  

You've also, maybe inadvertently, made an argument that Jazz should wait for such major surgery until she's older.  She shows her immaturity in this season's episodes:  "America's top vagina", "I'd wear leggings all the time" for instance.  That's such shallow reasoning, but I expect that from a 16 year old kid.  I would shudder to think of decisions I would have made so many years ago but for parents who parented me even though at times I was infuriated by their saying "no" to me.  

And enough of the "hater" label for anyone not enthusiastically on-board with all things TG, but that's more regarding Jeanette.   

[Otter]

I apologize for adding to ... but Jazz has seemed to have tuned out those who have underwent the surgery -- the worse pain ever, no matter what the procedure.  Hearing from them, J & J are delusional to think Jazz would recuperate in summer break.  Even her friend Skylyer said it took a year.  And skin grafts?  All for leggings.  Sorry, this old lady isn't on board for doing that to a child.

There's a post somewhere here, and the poster identifies as a feminist.  I apologize for not remembering whoa t and truly would love to find it the post because she nailed it.  Jeannette has bought into and taught Jazz everything patriarchal.  Women are only women for boobs and our "vags".  MtF TGs are setting biological women back, especially Jeanette, since in her mind Jazz isn't "complete" until she has sex, even at a tender age with a straight guy.  What the heck is wrong with her?  And it would be nice if Greg would actually act out on his "feelings" that too much, too fast.  He got her to go scuba diving, but not able to make her think rationally about their child.  When he does voice his apprehension, it's just that and done so meekly.  

Maybe I'm so uncomfortable with Jazz is that she's being so sexually objectivized by her own mother.  In my entire life I've never heard such discussion about things so personal.  Jazz will always be known as not the beacon for TG rights, but as a child with a tiny penis.  The internet is forever.  Why Jeanette thought all this was a good thing is beyond me .... Jazz herself in that Cosmo interview downplayed genitals and now we know she has to masturbate.  TMI.

[stacyasp]

7 hours ago, Impatient said:

Yes, Cousin debbie was a transgender specialist before Jazz was born.

Gee and what are the chances there would be a transgender kid in her family ????

[Impatient]

This pertains to I am Jazz, I promise.

 

I saw a documentary a few years ago about a woman who had a 200 pound tumor removed.  She had a form of neurofibromatosis and when she developed a malignancy, she was treated with radiation.  And that caused this one tumor to become out of control fast-growing.  They finally found a surgeon willing to try to remove the tumor, but it was EXTREMELY complex and challenging surgery.  On of the thing they had to deal with was the loss of skin associated with that tumor.  Since that skin too had the mutations that were in the tumor, they could not keep the skin.  and so this poor woman had about 60% of her abdominal skin removed.  And the surgeon and anesthesiologist said she had, for all intents and purposes become a burn patient.  Because they had to treat open wounds.  And so she had to have skin grafts with cadaver skin to assist in re-growing that skin.  

Now Jazz is going to have to have a rather large section of skin removed from her lower abdomen and she is going to have to go through the same skin grafting procedure to replace that skin.  And that is a big giant ordeal and incredibly painful.  The doctor who treated the tumor patient said it is the worst pain their patients have to endure.  I am guessing the show will HAVE to cease and desist during that ordeal and is going to be their come-to-Jesus moment, (no disrespect meant for their faith), when they realize the full extent andramifications of the path they are on.  I really think it is completely unwise to rush this before Jazz is 18.

[VioletNevermind]

2 hours ago, Otter said:

Maybe I'm so uncomfortable with Jazz is that she's being so sexually objectivized by her own mother.  In my entire life I've never heard such discussion about things so personal.  Jazz will always be known as not the beacon for TG rights, but as a child with a tiny penis.  The internet is forever.  Why Jeanette thought all this was a good thing is beyond me .... Jazz herself in that Cosmo interview downplayed genitals and now we know she has to masturbate.  TMI.

This, right here, is my main issue with this show.  I understand that part of the reason they're doing the show is to bank some of the six figures that Jazz's surgery will cost, but at what expense?  Every time I watch a scene of Jazz discussing such outrageously, unquestionably personal things on camera, I am horrified anew.  This is a 16-year-old child who thinks it's completely normal to discuss her soon-to-be vagina with her older brothers, referring to it as a "member of the family" to whom they have to be introduced.  That's just staggering to me.  My brother and father would have thrown themselves through the nearest open window to escape the room before discussing my genitals with me.  Her brothers' discomfort during these discussions is palpable, but she steamrolls ahead anyway, forcing them to discuss it.  She learned that from her attention-seeking, camera hog of a mother, but I'm not sure Jeanette realizes that she's doing her daughter a terrible disservice.  Jazz will not always be able to hide behind her mother to avoid the criticism and hatred out there.  Some of us may be living in 2017, but there are big pockets of serious, serious hatred and close-mindedness out there.  I worry for her safety and I worry that her social consciousness will end up being warped by this reality TV nonsense.

I know one thing for certain: there's no way on earth that my child would have a prayer of getting this surgery before she turned 18 and finished high school, at the very least.

Edited August 14, 2017 by SuzyLee

[doodlebug]

1 hour ago, Impatient said:

This pertains to I am Jazz, I promise.

 

I saw a documentary a few years ago about a woman who had a 200 pound tumor removed.  She had a form of neurofibromatosis and when she developed a malignancy, she was treated with radiation.  And that caused this one tumor to become out of control fast-growing.  They finally found a surgeon willing to try to remove the tumor, but it was EXTREMELY complex and challenging surgery.  On of the thing they had to deal with was the loss of skin associated with that tumor.  Since that skin too had the mutations that were in the tumor, they could not keep the skin.  and so this poor woman had about 60% of her abdominal skin removed.  And the surgeon and anesthesiologist said she had, for all intents and purposes become a burn patient.  Because they had to treat open wounds.  And so she had to have skin grafts with cadaver skin to assist in re-growing that skin.  

Now Jazz is going to have to have a rather large section of skin removed from her lower abdomen and she is going to have to go through the same skin grafting procedure to replace that skin.  And that is a big giant ordeal and incredibly painful.  The doctor who treated the tumor patient said it is the worst pain their patients have to endure.  I am guessing the show will HAVE to cease and desist during that ordeal and is going to be their come-to-Jesus moment, (no disrespect meant for their faith), when they realize the full extent andramifications of the path they are on.  I really think it is completely unwise to rush this before Jazz is 18.

I suspect that the needed tissue will be obtained via a surgery more like a tummy tuck.  They will excise an elliptical piece of skin through an incision similar but longer than the typical 'bikini cut' and, then, they'll be able to pull the remaining skin edges together and close it right then.

The TRAM flap procedure done for breast reconstruction after mastectomy might be comparable.

ETA:  . http://www.webmd.com/breast-cancer/tissue-flap-surgery-for-breast-reconstruction

Edited August 14, 2017 by doodlebug

[PrincessPurrsALot]

Folks,

To paraphrase Lionel Richie, now that we've come to the end of our season, there's something we must type in a  Mod note --

The rules of the forum have not changed:

• we follow the GLAAD guidelines
• therefore we refer to Jazz as a girl, regardless of what age she was or is; she is a transgender girl
• in the episode threads, keep the talk to that episode only (you can reference past episodes in this one; if you are writing in earlier threads, please do not reference things we learn in later episodes)
• if you find yourself wanting to talk about something not specific to the episode, please look for the appropriate thread; posters will find you there
• If someone really annoys you, please use the Ignore feature; your blood pressure will thank you

Finally, let's remember we are discussing a reality TV show.  Snark the show, not each other!

@17wheatthins and @PrincessPurrsALot

[Impatient]

Are we at the end of the season?

[Sew Sumi]

Yes, this was the last episode.

[Eureka]

On 8/13/2017 at 4:05 PM, Otter said:

Here's an excerpt from an interview in Cosmo in 2015:

 

C -- I read a Twitter chat you did where you said the hardest part of being trans is not being able to have your own biological child. Why does that stand out now, even though you’re so young?

J --  It’s really hard for me to look at that because with such an amazing mom, I always wanted to be the greatest mom ever. People say, "Oh, you can always adopt," and I completely agree with that. I can adopt. But, like, I’ll never have that moment where she comes out of my vag and I can say, "That’s my baby." But since my sister has my same DNA, I’m convincing her to carry the baby for me.

C -- Oh, good! It can come out of her vag.

J  -- We’ll take my hubby’s sperm and throw it in there and fertilize it.
 

Entire interview here:

http://www.cosmopolitan.com/entertainment/tv/a40068/jazz-jennings-internets-most-fascinating/

This stood out to me: "They want me to talk about boys [on the show]..." that whole answer is about them telling her how to grab an audience. Clearly, they hit that mark (ad nauseum). So who knows what else is producer driven and what is not?

Edited August 15, 2017 by Eureka

[mangosplums]

On 8/9/2017 at 11:02 PM, Caracoa1 said:

Why would Jazz have to go off hormone blockers for awhile before surgery?  If she shows any sign of male puberty before her surgery I believe that would be detrimental to Jazz's emotional well being.

I think because the doctor wants her to have an orgasm before she gets the surgery and she needs to have a bit of male hormones to do that first. 

On 8/10/2017 at 1:14 PM, woodscommaelle said:

When Noelle and Jazz were in the park feeding the birds....they were having a great time like two high school kids.  Or anyone laughing and having a great time.  But when the conversation turned to Tomi and Jazz going on the show and Noelle wanting to speak out against her or something?  Jazz told her that she didn't want Noelle to be vocal bc of the negative effect it would have on Jazz's family....Noelle looked absolutely dumbfounded.  Her patience is seriously waning.

Noelle, if you're reading this:  Get into activism or something.  Get your voice heard.  You are amazing! 

I don't think Jazz was saying she didn't want Noelle to be vocal. Noelle was encouraging Jazz to argue with Tomi if Tomi got aggressive, and Jazz was saying she didn't feel comfortable doing that, she wasn't saying anything about what Noelle should do. Also the bird scene was really staged.

On 8/10/2017 at 2:48 PM, gingerella said:

I suspect, based on Jazz's reaction and answer to the Dr. regarding her sexual preference/who she is more attracted to, that she may be more interested in being with women once she has her surgery, but she doesn't want to say it aloud yet. I say thbecause she comes off as so obsessed with being what she considers "a normal girl" and it seems like that includes being a female who is sexually attracted to males - at least that's the impression I get.  She seems almost repelled by actual boys her own age - regardless of whether they are transgender boys or not - Shane 1 and Shane 2 - so perhaps she knows she's attracted to women, but isnt ready to say so because it is another level of 'different-ness', compared to her mental image of being a straight girl, which it seems is what she's been obsessed with for years. I'm only going on how she presents herself and talks about herself...and I dont mean any disrespect to straight or gay women - it's just an observation I noted last night in how she talks about herself.

ETA: I think Jazz is so grossed out by her own genitals that I can easily see her not wanting to be with a male because she is so put off by her own male genitals, small as they might be.

I get the impression that Jazz is very attracted to guys, and seemed very attracted to Shane #2, but she's too unhappy with her own body and worried about how it'd be perceived to go on with dating right now. What you said in your edit

On 8/10/2017 at 11:25 PM, Figster said:

I have a M to F friend who also watches I am Jazz.  She told me something that really made me feel sad and a bit surprised at first.  She said she believes Jazz is likely currently imagining that once the gets a vagina (the "perfect" vagina), then she will be exactly the same as a cis female..  Society says this, her parents tell her this, as do the doctors.  In fact it's considered bigoted to say otherwise.  My trans friend said she had the same dream Jazz had and thought bottom surgery would make her into that bio female she always felt she was and wanted to be.  But her depression at feeling incomplete before bottom surgery only increased, when upon entering the dating world after having it completed, she still found that her dream was not realized.  That is, the men she truly wanted and was attracted to, cis hetero guys, mostly (99.8%) ran like the wind once she revealed she was transgendered.  I keep telling her there will be the right guy out there that will love her, all of her including her past.  But dating is a very difficult and largely demoralizing for her currently and I worry about her state of mind at times based on our conversations.  I hope Jazz understands that even the perfectly made vagina may not give her the perfect happy life she's envisioning.  Her road is a tough one, and i hope she becomes centered enough as a person (regardless of gender or bodily parts) to feel solid and centered in the world no matter what happens.

Well she found one person in Shane, so there's hope.

On 8/13/2017 at 2:03 PM, Impatient said:

Yes, Cousin debbie was a transgender specialist before Jazz was born.

That is VERY interesting.... your sure about that? Where'd you find that info?

[surveyandprotect1]

Not the best season finale! The ratings would agree. The diving scene was out of place and boring. They tried this a few episodes back and it didn't work. The Tomi interview scene was heavily advertised but didn't deliver. It felt rushed. 

 

The good news is that I believe the series got renewed for season 4 as my sources report seeing film crew for the first day of school on Monday.