A Thread for All Seasons: This Story Is Over, But Still Goes On.

[Shanna Marie]

10 hours ago, Camera One said:

I was watching random clips and happened upon the one in 3B when Henry's memories returned.  For a moment, I thought I was watching Season 6 of "Lost".  As much of a dud most of 3B was, I actually liked this scene.  Henry's acting seemed better and the emotion felt more genuine.  At the time, it annoyed me a little that it was all about Regina.  Snowing might as well be extras, standing there with zero exchange with Henry.  They didn't even bother doing a "memories returning" scene with Emma in the Season 6 finale, did they?  If they did, it must have been very unmemorable.

You know, thinking of this made me realize that Henry was probably more of a Savior than Emma was. He's involved in so many of the curse breakings. It was a TLK with him that broke the memory part of both curse one and curse two. He was the one who broke Isaac's AU. It was his tears that were part of the spell to release Merlin from the tree. He was the one who restored magic (well, he was also the one to destroy it). It was the fear of Wish Henry being turned into a killer that snapped Emma out of the wishverse spell and back to herself. And he saved Emma with a TLK after whatever the hell happened in the Final Battle. And yet Emma was the one putting her life on hold and sacrificing everything because she was the Savior, and things would have supposedly been terrible if she'd severed her Savior destiny.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

4 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

It was a TLK with him that broke the memory part of both curse one and curse two.

Of course, it's retroactively unknown why it didn't break Cora's memory erasure of Regina and Zelena.

[Shanna Marie]

46 minutes ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

Of course, it's retroactively unknown why it didn't break Cora's memory erasure of Regina and Zelena.

Or why Henry didn't get back the memories Regina wiped of her telling him about her great plan to murder his whole family after he freaked out at the thought. Then again, given that he knew about her setting the failsafe to kill everyone, I'm not sure him remembering that she'd told him her plan and then wiped his memory when he was opposed to it would have changed the way he felt about her. They're pretty vague about what, exactly, the TLK does, and is it specific for certain spells, etc.

[tennisgurl]

So, I've been watching a lot of season one lately, and I forgot how much I LOVED Hat Trick. Its funny, its fascinating in the way it sets up the multiverse, its otherworldly in ways the show hasn't been in years, and its actually scary. The scene where Jefferson pulls a gun on Emma and Emma sees the scar around his neck from being decapitated and yells "Off with his head!"with this deranged smile is genuinely chilling, followed by him being thrown out of the window and disappearing, and the flashback of Jefferson as the Mad Hatter going insane with piles of hats around him. Add to that some great acting and costume/set design, and a really interesting way of using the curse, it was just an awesome episode. 

It made me wonder, what are other peoples favorite episodes? I know we like to complain about the show (and it certainly deserves it) but, just for fun, with this new strange iteration appearing, what were the high points? What represents the show at its best? The episodes we watch again and dont get old? What are the best episodes we have seen so far? 

Edited October 13, 2017 by tennisgurl

[andromeda331]

4 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

So, I've been watching a lot of season one lately, and I forgot how much I LOVED Hat Trick. Its funny, its fascinating in the way it sets up the multiverse, its otherworldly in ways the show hasn't been in years, and its actually scary. The scene where Jefferson pulls a gun on Emma and Emma sees the scar around his neck from being decapitated and yells "Off with his head!"with this deranged smile is genuinely chilling, followed by him being thrown out of the window and disappearing, and the flashback of Jefferson as the Mad Hatter going insane with piles of hats around him. Add to that some great acting and costume/set design, and a really interesting way of using the curse, it was just an awesome episode. 

It made me wonder, what are other peoples favorite episodes? I know we like to complain about the show (and it certainly deserves it) but, just for fun, with this new strange iteration appearing, what were the high points? What represents the show at its best? The episodes we watch again and dont get old? What are the best episodes we have seen so far? 

I have so many favorites from the early seasons. The pilot is still one of my favorite episodes I love how they set everything up in fairytale land with Snow, Charming and the Curse preparing to send Emma away, the Evil Queen arriving at the end, Charming fighting to get Emma to safety and getting stabbed but sees Emma's gone before passing out, Snow crying after handing Emma over to Charming, going to find her husband and seeing too that Emma got away and the curse will be broken. In our world I loved watching Henry riding to Emma's apartment, Emma on her "date" and her reaction when the bond jumper flips over the table and runs off. She doesn't run just strolls on out the door. The writing on Emma's apartment door, her reaction to Henry, and arriving in Storybrook. Hearing about the curse. Snow and Emma meeting, Henry begging Emma to stay and the sad voice he uses when he says his mom doesn't love him she only pretends too. The set up of the town, Regina's mansion, and Granny's inn there's so much detail in the episode. That and the characters made fall in love with the show. Emma, Snow and Charming quickly became my favorites with Henry too for about a season and a half. I love the second epi

The Thing You Love Most seeing Emma explore town, the slight change because Emma decided to stay, Henry explaining the Curse to Emma who later tries it out by asking Snow how Regina became mayor and Snow has fuzzy memories. I loved Snow bailing Emma out of jail and I LOVE the scene with Emma taking a chainsaw to Regina's tree. It was awesome. Emma showing she was smart and was going to fight back. I hate what Regina did to Henry. But I loved Emma showing up at Snow's door and their talk. Emma deciding to stay and going to talk to Henry at his therapy session. Plus, Gold showing up at Regina's house dropping hints that he knew what was going on.

I loved Snow Falls with Bandit Snow and Charming meeting, Emma asking Snow to read to the coma patient so Henry would see nothing happening but instead Charming woke up. Emma showing up at Snow's apartment at the end asking if the room was still available. I really loved the building of Emma and Snow's relationship and Emma and Henry's. Both were really good.

Desperate Souls was really good too. I liked learning of Rumple's back story at this point with his son. The mistake he made. Rumple manipulating everything in order for Emma to win the election. I really love the scene with Emma and Snow on stage before the election. Henry coming to Emma drowning her sorrows at the diner. Rumple encouraging Emma to take the walkie-talkies.

True North with Emma and Snow talking at the end about Henry's theory. Gretel was a pretty cool character too. Emma letting Nicholas and Ava think she believed their story only to show up at the house. Emma not wanting to split the kids up.

What Happened to Frederick? I really liked learning how cool Abigail was.

Heart of Darkness with Snow attempting to murder a bluebird, the Dwarves doing an Intervention, Snow setting off to kill Regina but stopped by Charming twice.

The Hat Trick was really good too. Poor Jefferson, Regina really screwed him over. Jefferson did a good job of being crazy with Emma, I liked Emma and Snow working together to fight him, the scar around his neck and disappearing after Snow kicks him out of the window. I liked Emma's speech to Snow afterwards letting down her wall for a second calling Snow "family". Regina showing up surprised to see Snow still in jail.

The Return with Rumple losing Baelfire realizing that's why Rumple had the curse cast. To find Bae. Bae was such a great character. I like the scene with Henry and Gold in the shop. Plus the card Henry gives Snow from the class "We're so glad you didn't kill Mrs. Nolan.

Land without Magic- Emma freaking out over Henry and finally learning that it was all true. I love her expression grabbing Regina and yanking her into the supply room to toss her around. It was awesome. Emma fighting the dragon intercuts with Charming fighting the dragon to put the potion Emma retrieves from Maleficent later. I loved Emma breaking the curse. The stunned reactions from the hospital staff. Snow and Charming reuniting.

Broken- I love the reunions in the beginning of the episode Snow hugging Ruby, Granny, and the Dwarves. Emma showing up uncertain, the hug and tears. The mob on the way to deal with Regina which really should have lasted longer. Aurora, Philip and Mulan showing up in the Enchanted Forest

We Are Both- Henry telling Regina he didn't want to live with her, Charming desperate to find a way to get Snow and Emma back. Showing up with a sword to fight Regina for Henry. Regina letting him take Henry. Regina getting rid of Cora

Lady of the Lake- Emma completely out of her element was fun to watch. I love her reactions to everything. Aurora attacking Snow I love the easy way Snow just throws Aurora and gets the upper hand. The two battling at the end. Henry talking to Jefferson. Henry and Charming play later with swords. Snow and Emma battling Cora at the end.

Tallahassee- I really liked Team Princess Emma climbing the bean stock but telling Mulan to cut it down by a certain point, Snow figuring it out later.  Emma and Hook climbing the beanstock.

Queen of Hearts-Snow figuring out how to get out of their cell, Snow and Emma fighting Cora, I love Emma jumping in right before Cora can take Snow's heart, I also loved that Cora wasn't able to take Emma's. Hook giving Aurora's heart back and Emma defeating Hook. Henry convincing Regina to undo what she did to prevent anyone from returning from the well. How excited Emma and Henry were and the Charming family back together finally.

The Queen is Dead-The flashback was really good.

The Miller's Daughter is really good too. Cora's back story, the battle between Cora and Regina and the Charmings helping Rumple.

The Heart of the Truest Believer- I liked seeing the Charmings, Regina and Hook forced to work together. Rumple bolted and I liked Henry's part. Emma realizing the storm was being caused by their fighting and jumping off the ship. Charming rescuing her. Emma at the end talking about how they needed to work together to get Henry back.

Lost Girl- Seeing Regina's magic backfire, Hook being proven right about going into the middle. Emma and Snow's really good scene.

Nasty Habits-I liked the flashback, Neal for once did something helpful and smart with the squid ink. Too bad we didn't see more of it. Rumple and Neal getting Henry.
 
Good Form- I love good form. Seeing Hook on the straight and narrow in the flash back. In the present Hook helping Charming. I liked the way he tricked Charming into getting help. Charming's brief talk with Emma and Snow before he leaves thinking he was going to die. Pan offering Hook a deal and Hook rejecting. Snow, Emma and Regina getting a message to Henry. It was a really good episode.

Going Home-Regina being forced to undo the curse everyone going home except Emma and Henry. Rumple defeating Pan by killing him and himself. I really love that Rumple was finally willing to sacrifice himself for Neal and Belle. I love Rumple's remark that 'he's a villain and villains don't get happy endings'

New York Serenade-Hook in NYC trying to convince Emma to help her family. Emma and Henry playing video games together. Everyone else returning to the Enchanted Forest. Emma going back to Storybrook and seeing its all back. Going to her parents' apartment and their reunited was really good.

Snow Drifts and There's No Place Like Home- I almost quit the show in season 3B Regina suddenly having white magic. The Woegina was back. But then I watched these two episodes. They were so fun! Emma and Hook back in the Enchanted Forest back in time Emma getting to see her parents and watch them fall in love. Emma's reaction to everything. Rumple attempting to kill Hook but then helping them. Hook and Charming's talk around the campfire and their rescue of Emma who also manages to rescue herself. Rumple taking the forgetting potion and wondering what he was doing there. Emma learning Hook sold his ship to find her.

A Tale of Two Sisters- I really liked the Frozen stuff. White Out-Emma and Elsa. I liked that Elsa wasn't evil just didn't have control over her magic. Rocky Road-Again I like the Frozen flashback, Hook knowing Rumple was lying and convincing him to help. Snow being Mayor. The Snow Queen was interesting Emma saving Hook's life and later admitting every man she ever love died.

Family Business- I liked the Charmings and Hook watching the video of Emma in her foster home. Emma finding the file on her and parts with the Snow Queen.

The Snow Queen- I liked Snow Queen's flashback, the Mommy & Me class, Emma question Ingrid in the interrogation room

Smash the Mirror- Ingrid in the flashback trying to convince Elsa that Anna wants to trap her in the urn and Elsa not believing Ingrid, Ingrid figuring out the sisters plan and goes after Anna who accidentally traps Elsa. Emma desperate for helping turning to Rumple and really believes he's helping her. Hook racing to help her and Elsa convincing Emma not go give up her powers.

[Camera One]

The pilot is still my favorite episode after all these years.  Favorite episodes are harder to identify for me since I sometimes like only the flashback or only the present day.  Some episodes I like because of one really good scene.  The first three episodes were solid.  Price of Gold was my first big disappointment.  

[Shanna Marie]

32 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Favorite episodes are harder to identify for me since I sometimes like only the flashback or only the present day.  Some episodes I like because of one really good scene.

That's where I am. It's hard for me to think of an episode I liked all the way through, both flashback and present day. Sometimes I like the flashback story. Sometimes I like the present day story. Mostly for me, this is a series of moments. There are a lot of really great moments when everything comes together and it's wonderful, but they're buried in really weak context. I did love the pilot all the way through. I liked most of the season 3 finale, though the "flashbacks" for that one were weak and I hated the Robin and Regina stuff that bookended it. Otherwise, it was all the things I've always hoped to get in this series. We had the fairytale mashup with Captain Hook, Prince Charming, and Red Riding Hood teaming up to rescue Snow White, Princess Leia, and Maid Marian from the Evil Queen. We had the culture clash/fish out of water stuff contrasting the modern "real world" with the fairytale land in Emma's reactions to the Enchanted Forest and Hook not getting her pop culture references. We had a fairytale ball, swashbuckling, daring escapes, and a lot of moments of genuine emotion. Those episodes prove that they are capable of doing good stuff. They just apparently choose not to most of the time. I'd have thought that the ratings and critical/fan response to those episodes might have taught them something, but it's almost like they tried to deliberately avoid doing anything like that again, or else they never understood what people liked about those episodes and tried to do it again but missed the point.

"Good Form" was good in past and present. I loved the genuine surprise of seeing Hook in his Lt. Jones days. The flashback set up the present-day story, and there was real character growth and development in the present. Though I wonder if Josh had a "seriously?" reaction later in the series when he got the script for the next standard-issue Captain Charming episode, in which he suddenly had to hate Hook again. After "Good Form," it really looks like Josh is always trying to play his friendliness with Hook in the background with little things like patting him on the back or shoulder, or turning to look at him and smile. He does a lot of nonverbals to show his acceptance of Hook -- and then suddenly there's the "you aren't good enough for my daughter, you're a dirty pirate, and I don't trust you" episode. I loved "Snow Falls" all the way through, too, with the past and present working together well and a lot of really emotional moments.

Some favorite moments: the shock when Prince James was killed (and we didn't know he was a different person from Charming); the beanstalk climb (an excellent setup for a potential relationship, showing but not telling that Hook and Emma might be kindred spirits on some level -- this is where I want to shake the writers and say "see, you know how to do this, so why do you choose not to do it this way in your other relationships?), Bae's adventures among the Darlings and his arrival on the Jolly Roger (pity he grew up into a schmuck), when Abigail/Kathryn was revealed to be pretty cool and not a total bitch (since we haven't seen her after the season 3 finale, my headcanon is that in the narrow window between flying monkeys keeping people in town and the ice wall, she and Frederick left town and she went to law school in Boston), Hook trying to explain a cell phone to Elsa when he didn't really understand it.

[andromeda331]

On ‎10‎/‎13‎/‎2017 at 9:37 AM, Shanna Marie said:

Otherwise, it was all the things I've always hoped to get in this series. We had the fairytale mashup with Captain Hook, Prince Charming, and Red Riding Hood teaming up to rescue Snow White, Princess Leia, and Maid Marian from the Evil Queen. We had the culture clash/fish out of water stuff contrasting the modern "real world" with the fairytale land in Emma's reactions to the Enchanted Forest and Hook not getting her pop culture references. We had a fairytale ball, swashbuckling, daring escapes, and a lot of moments of genuine emotion. Those episodes prove that they are capable of doing good stuff. They just apparently choose not to most of the time. I'd have thought that the ratings and critical/fan response to those episodes might have taught them something, but it's almost like they tried to deliberately avoid doing anything like that again, or else they never understood what people liked about those episodes and tried to do it again but missed the point.

this is where I want to shake the writers and say "see, you know how to do this, so why do you choose not to do it this way in your other relationships?), 

That's really it. The hard, crappy and frustrating part of the show. They can do really great stuff. They've shown they can put together episodes that really good, really fun, full of adventure, swashbuckling, daring escapes, and emotional moments. But they don't. We waited though all of 3B to get these two episodes.  Why couldn't they have made those episodes up to then really good? Or the seasons that followed? Instead its all this instant stuff instant love, instant fix usually with a never mentioned before magical object, nothing strung together, they can't even be bothered to put enough into a story to make it last an arch or finish it. Are they they deliberately avoid doing anything like that again or are they missing the point? Or maybe both? They try to do similar stuff season four finale it was Henry having to fix things but instead of going back in time he was in the alternative story the Isaac wrote. But it had none of the fun, charm or anything. Just mostly laziness, boring and didn't make any sense. The villains who were now the "Heroes" weren't live any kind of life that they would want and demand if they were the Heroes. Regina would never end up like Bandit Snow. Whether she ended up all powerful and all her enemies were dead and did whatever she wanted or made everyone love and adore her, or some life where she's married to Daniel would make more sense. Rumple would pick something else for him being the Hero story. There was also no fun. Where was the fun? As much as I hate Regina if this was her story of getting what she wanted she'd be having fun. Lots of fun. Season 3 finale was fun! Emma having to distract old Hook, current Hook worried and punch his old self, Emma knocking out Marian remarking "I guess we're kidnapping you".  Emma's shocked face at seeing Rumple the first time. Rumple's confusion as to why he was in his vault or where ever that was, Snow managing to save Charming's life even though she used the dust already, Emma using Princess Leia as an alias. Where was the fun in season four finale? Where's the fun anywhere in season five and six? They don't want to write emotional moments, they don't want to write swordfights, adventures, or fun.  

Edited October 14, 2017 by andromeda331

[Rumsy4]

Last night's episode was the first I watched this season. I had decided to watch Emma's Curtain Call episode to decide about the Season, and I can't say I'm even mildly intrigued. The Captain Swan Happy Beginning was preserved, which makes me happy, and Wishrealm!Hook was a decent enough solution to keep Colin in the Show, but everything else falls apart.

First, as others have said, I'm just not seeing any chemistry between Henry and Cinderella. I don't care much about Lucy, and I think it's unbelievable that the step-mother was able to take Lucy from her mother. Did the court grant her joint custody with Jacinda? Am I missing something here? Also, Victoria Belfry does not have the "presence" of the parade of former villains in the Show. She's not even up to the standard of warlord Bo Peep. 

And why should I care about the fact that the Cursed charatcers are acting a certain way? Is Jacinda being weak because of her Cursed Personality, or is that part of her character? Roni seems nothing like Regina, so why should I care that she's making hope speeches now? Once the Curse breaks, will she revert to being whiny and "snarky" again? If so, what's the point? 

Same with Weaver/Rumple. They're portraying him as a cop who acts unconventionally, but may actually have good intentions deep down. Does he have his memories? Is he Wish!Rumple, or Rumple Prime? If he doesn't have his memories, will he revert to being the devious Rumple once the Curse breaks? If so, again--who cares about his Cursed persona? 

All these Cursed personalities simple don't have the pull of the Season 1 characters. In Season 1, there's was something intriguing about figuring out the fairy tale counterparts, and seeing them start acting like their pre-cursed selves, thanks to Emma's activities. The new charatcers are not interesting enough, except for Tiana and maybe Alice. The return charatcers are too familiar to intrigue me about their Cursed personae.

Having Wish!Hook be Officer Rogers is a neat enough solution, but are we supposed to take the buffoonish character seriously now? I will say one thing though, Colin really sold the scenes where de-aged Wish!Hook is dying, and he talks about his daughter to Hook Prime, and when Emma heals him. Colin has also put subtle enough touches for Wish!Hook to seem different from Hook Prime. While I'm super glad that Hook and Emma are not separated, and the fear that we'd never get a happy reunion between them is now eliminated, I don't really care all that much about Wish!Hook to watch the season for Colin's sake alone. I might still tune in for Wish!Hook centrics, and catch scenes here and there on youtube. Oh, and I think casual and intermittent viewers are going to be so confused about Hook going forward when there is no mention of Emma, and his daughter shows up on-screen. As for regular fans--Adam will spend hours clarifying whether the WishRealm was real or not.

So--the overall grade from me is--meh. 

Edited October 14, 2017 by Rumsy4

[RadioGirl27]

1 hour ago, Rumsy4 said:

As for regular fans--Adam will spend hours clarifying whether the WishRealm was real or not.

I'm looking forward to this and how embarrassing is going to be, LOL.

[Camera One]

I wonder if they'll trot out Jane's crystal clear explanation again.  Something like "The books on the shelf are real, but the characters inside are not."  LOL.  I mean, we're supposed to be happy for Wish Robin's engagement to Wish Evil Queen, and we're supposed to feel deeply for Wish Hook, but Wish Snowing dying is a big joke because they're old and they're Snowing, so who cares.

Edited October 14, 2017 by Camera One

[Camera One]

The long awaited interview with A&E about "A Pirate's Life": 

Quote

ADAM HOROWITZ | This was an extension of the happy ending you saw between Emma and Hook last year, but another thing that’s really important to understand, and will become more apparent as the season goes along, is this is not a replacement for Henry. In Emma’s mind, Henry will be back sooner or later.

It's hilarious they have to explain that Emma having a baby is not a replacement for Henry.  

Quote

KITSIS | It’s like someone who moves from New York to Milwaukee and comes home for Thanksgiving.

No it's not.  They're implying Regina and Emma haven't seen Henry in YEARS (and Lana said Regina hadn't seen Henry in 8 years or so).  That's more like going up to the international space station for years at a time.

Quote

 It’s not like Emma is just sitting on her Hands going, “I wonder what happened to Henry?” She’s gone off to have this life, and as Eddy said, it’s like your son moved to New York. It doesn’t mean that they don’t have their off-show interaction.

So now they have "off-show interactions"?  From what I assumed, Regina and Emma had no idea what Henry was up to.  Parents worry.  Henry isn't going to New York.  He's going to some dangerous unknown realm where people live medieval-style with magical villains.  So yeah, she's going to be "sitting on her hands" worrying.

Quote

And Emma and Henry are still a family unit. It’s important for the audience not to feel like she’s abandoned Henry to go off and do whatever. Sure, we’re not seeing Emma on the show going forward, but luckily we do a show that deals in magic and different realms.

I love family units where 3/4 of the family is MIA.  It's always so sweet.

Quote

KITSIS | They FaceTime off-screen through a magic mirror.

Oh silly me.  I didn't realize that until you made it up for the interview.

Quote

TVLINE | How does this pregnancy reveal inform Rogers’ storyline?
HOROWITZ | It actually has a massive impact on Rogers, and you saw that in the episode. He was there to kill Hook and take over his life, because he has a poisoned heart that he thinks Emma can heal it. But when he discovered that Hook and Emma are having a child, it awakened the bit of good inside him.

What the hell is a "poisoned heart"?  That's the reason why he was willing to kill Hook?  So Emma healed the poison too?  I thought she just healed the stab wound.

Quote

EDDY KITSIS | Given the ending that we came up with last year — that happy endings are everyone living their life with the people they love and doing what they love to do 

I'm just imagining David shoveling a pile of manure and loving it.  It must evoke so many memories of when he grew up fatherless on a farm constantly on the brink of bankruptcy.

Edited October 14, 2017 by Camera One

[Camera One]

Quote

 

Adam Horowitz‏ @AdamHorowitzLA

HELP @finaldraftinc -I'm trying to cut and past a block of action/dialogue and everytime I cut the script format goes haywire. What do I do?

 

This made me laugh.  Copying and pasting from Season 1 scripts or what?

[pezgirl7]

This show probably won't last long enough for this to happen, but the way Lady Tremaine kinda looked turned on when Alt Hook got in her face and flirted with her, I had a thought that maybe she ends up becoming redeemed, and then falls in love with Alt Hook. ugh Please don't let that happen.

[KAOS Agent]

This show has been plot, plot, plot for such a long time now that I don't think the writers even know how to write more character focused stories. Unfortunately for them, that is exactly what they needed to write to get the audience to connect with the new story. A bunch of nonsensical stories that confuse the hell out of the audience isn't going to maintain viewership. People stuck around because they cared about their favorite characters and were willing to put up with the ridiculousness (to a point) to see how their stories progressed. We need a reason to care about these new characters. Instead it's a bunch of randomness, forced interaction and completely unbelievable scenarios (a $550 child's ballet recital?) and no reasons why I should care.

You have to provide background and characterization before you launch into all plot all the time. I need to know what I'm watching and who the players are from the start. If you are positing that these aren't the fairy tales you've heard, then you can't expect me to root for one character over another based on the fairy tale that I've heard. Cinderella punches out a guy, steals his motorcycle and rides off to murder the prince. What am I supposed get from that? She's not someone I should cheer for. They were going for a twist on the heroine from the story I know, but forgot to give me a reason why I should still root for her to win. My first impression: she's an unlikable murderous bitch. How exciting to watch an entire series with her as the protagonist.

[Shanna Marie]

41 minutes ago, KAOS Agent said:

They were going for a twist on the heroine from the story I know, but forgot to give me a reason why I should still root for her to win. My first impression: she's an unlikable murderous bitch.

There's a reason why most Cinderella stories start with the "cinder" part, showing what she has to endure. Otherwise, even without the assault, theft, and planned murder parts, she might come across as getting things too easy. It might have helped if we'd first seen what she endured at the hands of her stepmother, maybe showed her learning that the prince was (supposedly) responsible for her father's death. That's why my "there, I fixed it" rewrite started with the glass slipper reunion. Then I'd jump back to her enslaved days, then later in the season reveal that she met Henry when she was on her way to murder the prince.

8 hours ago, Camera One said:

So now they have "off-show interactions"?  From what I assumed, Regina and Emma had no idea what Henry was up to. 

Weren't both Emma and Regina surprised to see he'd grown up? In the previous episode, the portal he was trying to catch made it sound like he popped back home for frequent visits, but they were acting like this was the first time they'd seen him since he left. I suppose he could pop back going forward, especially now that he knows he has a younger sibling on the way, but the impression I got from this episode was that this was the first time he'd seen or communicated with his family since he left.

8 hours ago, Camera One said:

They're implying Regina and Emma haven't seen Henry in YEARS (and Lana said Regina hadn't seen Henry in 8 years or so). 

Henry may have aged 8 years since they saw him, but their timeline is getting really wacky if it's been 8 years from Regina and Emma's perspective. For one thing, that launches the present-day part of the story well into the future. For another, it would mean that, given the 3-4 years from season 6 to Henry's departure, Emma would be in her mid-40s in this episode. Gee, no wonder Hook thought she should rest. She's got a moderately high-risk pregnancy going on there.

12 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

Having Wish!Hook be Officer Rogers is a neat enough solution, but are we supposed to take the buffoonish character seriously now?

I'm assuming that by the time he's Rogers, he's settled down a bit and has become less cartoonish. Just the near death seems to have matured him some.

[Camera One]

I was just thinking from this episode that Regina is such a great character that it's a shame they didn't spin her off into her own series after Season 3 like they did with "Angel".  It would have been a total win-win.

[KingOfHearts]

2 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I was just thinking from this episode that Regina is such a great character that it's a shame they didn't spin her off into her own series after Season 3 like they did with "Angel".  It would have been a total win-win.

I would love a Regina/Zelena spinoff, and I'm not even being sarcastic. If they would have let leave the show, she wouldn't have to hang around her victims. She can't be that attached to Snowing and Storybrooke if she can just go on some random journey with Henry at the tip of a hat.

Edited October 15, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

7 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

I would love a Regina/Zelena spinoff, and I'm not even being sarcastic.

That's what I was thinking, since after 3B, they could have gone off to earn their redemption together.  The only problem is Regina wouldn't leave Henry, so they could say Henry split into two after the Peter Pan body switch, and someone needs to take care of Older Teenage Henry, who was spirited away and is lost somewhere in an unknown parallel realm where Regina and Zelena could have adventures, find love interests and take over a kingdom from an evil sorcerer.

If they had kept Season 1 Henry intact, he wouldn't even care if Regina left.  Or if 3B Henry never regained his memories of her... because that was supposed to be her punishment, after all. Actually, that's even better than the dumb Henry split into two thing.  Maybe they could find an alt Henry in the other realm.

Edited October 15, 2017 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

15 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

I'm assuming that by the time he's Rogers, he's settled down a bit and has become less cartoonish. Just the near death seems to have matured him some.

Plus having and losing his daughter. I actually find Old Hook sympathetic. It's just that he was so arbitrary in the WishVerse, and he's front and center in the rebbot. But it sort of works.

[jhlipton]

On 10/13/2017 at 6:10 PM, Rumsy4 said:

So--Weaver's really a good cop.
 

On 10/13/2017 at 6:57 PM, Shanna Marie said:

Yeah, he may have supposedly been testing how good Rogers was, but he wouldn't have been on call with Victoria and her expecting him to do her bidding if he wasn't dirty.

The first time we meet him, he's torturing a guy for the laffs (spelling intentional), so calling him "good" is a stretch by any metric.

On 10/13/2017 at 6:29 PM, KingOfHearts said:

Has Regina done nothing in the past 10 years or so? She acted like she just saw Henry three months ago.

I would have been OK with "time passes differently in different realms" but apparently, A&E screwed that up.

 

On 10/14/2017 at 6:55 AM, Rumsy4 said:

Last night's episode was the first I watched this season. I had decided to watch Emma's Curtain Call episode to decide about the Season, and I can't say I'm even mildly intrigued. The Captain Swan Happy Beginning was preserved, which makes me happy, and Wishrealm!Hook was a decent enough solution to keep Colin in the Show, but everything else falls apart.

First, as others have said, I'm just not seeing any chemistry between Henry and Cinderella. I don't care much about Lucy, and I think it's unbelievable that the step-mother was able to take Lucy from her mother. Did the court grant her joint custody with Jacinda? Am I missing something here? Also, Victoria Belfry does not have the "presence" of the parade of former villains in the Show. She's not even up to the standard of warlord Bo Peep. 

And why should I care about the fact that the Cursed charatcers are acting a certain way? Is Jacinda being weak because of her Cursed Personality, or is that part of her character? Roni seems nothing like Regina, so why should I care that she's making hope speeches now? Once the Curse breaks, will she revert to being whiny and "snarky" again? If so, what's the point? 

Same with Weaver/Rumple. They're portraying him as a cop who acts unconventionally, but may actually have good intentions deep down. Does he have his memories? Is he Wish!Rumple, or Rumple Prime? If he doesn't have his memories, will he revert to being the devious Rumple once the Curse breaks? If so, again--who cares about his Cursed persona? 

All these Cursed personalities simple don't have the pull of the Season 1 characters. In Season 1, there's was something intriguing about figuring out the fairy tale counterparts, and seeing them start acting like their pre-cursed selves, thanks to Emma's activities. The new charatcers are not interesting enough, except for Tiana and maybe Alice. The return charatcers are too familiar to intrigue me about their Cursed personae.

Having Wish!Hook be Officer Rogers is a neat enough solution, but are we supposed to take the buffoonish character seriously now? I will say one thing though, Colin really sold the scenes where de-aged Wish!Hook is dying, and he talks about his daughter to Hook Prime, and when Emma heals him. Colin has also put subtle enough touches for Wish!Hook to seem different from Hook Prime. While I'm super glad that Hook and Emma are not separated, and the fear that we'd never get a happy reunion between them is now eliminated, I don't really care all that much about Wish!Hook to watch the season for Colin's sake alone. I might still tune in for Wish!Hook centrics, and catch scenes here and there on youtube. Oh, and I think casual and intermittent viewers are going to be so confused about Hook going forward when there is no mention of Emma, and his daughter shows up on-screen. As for regular fans--Adam will spend hours clarifying whether the WishRealm was real or not.

So--the overall grade from me is--meh. 

[KingOfHearts]

Pulling this from the Spoilers thread, no spoilers:

Quote

There is also technically an older Evil Queen in the WishVerse, isn't there? The WishVerse is a total mess. People were using string theory and whatnot to try and make sense of it on tumblr yesterday. I think it's going to be a mess when it comes to Wish!Hook's backstory episodes.

It is indeed a mess. This is how Wish!Hook described his realm:
 

Quote

Hook: "Yeah, like a bad dream. Everything in that realm was just a twisted version of the truth - like a cracked mirror. You're not real."
Wish!Hook: "But I'm as real as the night is long. Infinite realms, infinite possibilities. You're just upset that you're not always you."

Quote

Wish!Hook: "You see, our stories were the same up to a point. But in my realm, Regina's curse was never cast. That's when our tales parted ways."

A&E pleaded that the Wish Realm was not an alternate timeline. It wasn't an exact diversion from when Regina cast the curse. Elements of it were meant to be aspects of the Evil Queen's wish, such as Neal's heroic legacy. Wish!Hook described it as if the realm had existed prior to the wish. If it were purely an alternate timeline, Hook's story would have been rendered identical up to the instance of change. But since everything was arbitrary,  his words are not that accurate. The Hooks contradict each other with one saying it was fake and the other that it was real. That's not something that can have two valid opinions. It's either "real" or it's not. 

When it comes to genies and the laws of magic, the Wish Realm is one giant loophole. You can't make someone love someone else, but you can create couples who love each other. You can't go back in time, but you can create an alternate timeline where things are different without affecting the "prime" universe. You can't resurrect the dead, but you can create a carbon copy of the dead person. The laws of magic are pointless. Genies are basically gods who can create entire universes.

[Camera One]

Hello, Adam and Eddy here.  Thanks for all your questions.

4 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

A&E pleaded that the Wish Realm was not an alternate timeline. 

It's not an alternate timeline.  It's an alternate realm.  And once a realm is created, time exists and a timeline is created.  But it's not an alternate timeline.  Hope that helps.

Quote

 It wasn't an exact diversion from when Regina cast the curse.   

Thanks!  We pride ourselves on providing surprise.  It's not an exact diversion because that would be boring and we never do boring.

Quote

The Hooks contradict each other with one saying it was fake and the other that it was real. That's not something that can have two valid opinions. It's either "real" or it's not. 

We always love to work in grey area, which not everyone is comfortable with.  But we are risk takers, so it's both real and it's not at the same time.  Or put another way, the things we say are real are real and the things we say aren't real aren't real. Thanks for watching!

[Rumsy4]

You got their voices down pat, @Camera One lol. Are you sure you're not Adam or Eddy from an alternate realm? ;-) 

This is my personal headcanon about the Wishverse: Until its point of conception, the WishWorld did not exist. The WishVerse was a twisted up version of the Prime Misthaven Universe created when the Genie granted Clone Queen’s wish. At its birthing point, it came with a set of implanted memories, so to speak, that would provide the backstories of the character copies created de novo (except for Emma). It’s not a simple timeline divergence, IMO. It’s a new Realm created by Genie Magic instead of it being an alternate Universe (Fringe) that existed all along. The twists were caused by Clone Queen's nefarious intentions in addition to the conveniently unreliable "price of magic". For instance, l do not believe that Snowing would’ve brought up Emma as an overgrown baby in the absence of the Dark Curse. WishRobin is far too young for that Timeline w/o the Dark Curse, and can only be explained by something to do with Robin Prime’s soul. Nothing really explains how Hook turned into a bumbling inept version of himself by itself. But adding in the backstory about losing his daughter might drive one version of Killian just a little bit crazy when added to the losses he's already suffered. I think I'm just going to assume that all the people created by the Genie's wish are real. So, Regina actually murdered a different version of Snowing, and she and Emma abandoned a version of their son whom was now orphaned. Isn't that nice? 

[Noneofyourbusiness]

On October 14, 2017 at 2:29 PM, Camera One said:

What the hell is a "poisoned heart"?  That's the reason why he was willing to kill Hook?  So Emma healed the poison too?  I thought she just healed the stab wound.

She did just heal the stab wound. He wanted her to heal his heart with True Love, but that didn't happen.

Guess we'll find out what a poisoned heart means. Sounds like Cora having her heart removed or Hades having his frozen, except we've seen no affects of it on Wish Hook's behavior (except possibly not realizing that you can't have True Love with someone whom you're deceiving).

[Rumsy4]

I think the Witch cursed him, and only True Love can break the Curse. Which could be something in the horizon for Hook with his daughter. 

[Camera One]

It's going to be a pain to write Wish Hook all the time.  WHook?  Willian?  I guess Rogers is going to have to be it.  

Having seen that it is possible to make us care for a Wish Realm character, I'm thinking that Wish Realm Henry would be more interesting than the Henry we currently have.  That Henry would have gone through a lot of loss... his grandparents were murdered and his mother disappeared without a trace.  He would have grown up into a very different person.  Maybe the requel should have been based around him.

[Rumsy4]

49 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Maybe the requel should have been based around him.

In fact, there would be Wish!Rumple and Wish!EQ to round off the charatcers. Wish!EQ could still cast the Dark Curse and there you go...

Plus, the second versions of Cinderella and other iconic characters could be explained as caused by the twisted genie magic.

Edited October 16, 2017 by Rumsy4

[Scarlett45]

Some of my favorite episodes from the early seasons are The Pilot, Snow Falls, The Miller's Daughter, Hat Trick. 

[Camera One]

1 minute ago, Rumsy4 said:

In fact, there would be Wish!Rumple and Wish!EQ to round off the charatcers. Wish!EQ could still cast the Dark Curse and there you go...

Plus, the second versions of Cinderella and other iconic characters could be explained as caused by the twisted genie magic.

The Season 6 Lady Tremaine would have made this requel more viable.  Maybe in the Wish Realm, she married some other rich husband, resulting in a different Cinderella.  Wish Henry could actually have been pressured to marry by his advisors, and he half-heartedly puts on a ball.  Wish!EQ would also be old by this point, so maybe she's actually ready for redemption, but Lady Tremaine steals the Dark Curse and Henry is forced to ask the EQ for help.

[Souris]

4 hours ago, Camera One said:

Hello, Adam and Eddy here.  Thanks for all your questions.

It's not an alternate timeline.  It's an alternate realm.  And once a realm is created, time exists and a timeline is created.  But it's not an alternate timeline.  Hope that helps.

Thanks!  We pride ourselves on providing surprise.  It's not an exact diversion because that would be boring and we never do boring.

We always love to work in grey area, which not everyone is comfortable with.  But we are risk takers, so it's both real and it's not at the same time.  Or put another way, the things we say are real are real and the things we say aren't real aren't real. Thanks for watching!

You need to have some sort of mental exorcism to get A&E out of your brain, LOL! That can't be good for you.

[Scarlett45]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

The Season 6 Lady Tremaine would have made this requel more viable.  Maybe in the Wish Realm, she married some other rich husband, resulting in a different Cinderella.  Wish Henry could actually have been pressured to marry by his advisors, and he half-heartedly puts on a ball.  Wish!EQ would also be old by this point, so maybe she's actually ready for redemption, but Lady Tremaine steals the Dark Curse and Henry is forced to ask the EQ for help.

It's awful you're a better show runner than A&E. 

I confess I stopped watching Season 6 after Gideon was born and INTENDED to catch up and Netflix but didn't. Now I'm thinking I didn't miss anything. 

Edited October 16, 2017 by Scarlett45

[KAOS Agent]

I've always felt like I was in the minority about this, but in S1 I enjoyed the Storybrooke stuff more than the Enchanted Forest. The past informed the present and it was good to get the background, but I liked seeing the cursed characters change as their true selves came out over whatever story they were telling from the past. This is partly why I can't connect with the new season. Seattle is not Storybrooke and I have zero idea what this curse has done. It seems like the only change is the setting for these characters and a lack of memory. There is no visible weakening of this curse as characters discover their true selves and fight back against evil. The case of the week structure worked well in S1 and we saw forward movement of the overarching plot (and character wins!). I know they're only two episodes in, but there is so little there. Nothing is changing. I don't know why Victoria even cares about Henry being around because he seems to have no effect on anything. 

What is the goal? Lucy mentioned the curse, but she doesn't seem all that interested in breaking it. At least Henry was there as a through line in S1 pushing Emma to do things that he thought might break the curse. He was highly motivated. No one in Seattle seems to care. They don't even seem all that miserable. And if they are, why not just move out of the neighborhood and get Victoria out of their hair for good? Everything is pretty boring.

Edited October 16, 2017 by KAOS Agent

[Camera One]

37 minutes ago, KAOS Agent said:

This is partly why I can't connect with the new season. Seattle is not Storybrooke and I have zero idea what this curse has done. It seems like the only change is the setting for these characters and a lack of memory. There is no visible weakening of this curse as characters discover their true selves and fight back against evil. The case of the week structure worked well in S1 and we saw forward movement of the overarching plot (and character wins!).

Nothing is changing. I don't know why Victoria even cares about Henry being around because he seems to have no effect on anything. 

What is the goal? Lucy mentioned the curse, but she doesn't seem all that interested in breaking it. At least Henry was there as a through line in S1 pushing Emma to do things that he thought might break the curse. He was highly motivated. No one in Seattle seems to care. They don't even seem all that miserable. And if they are, why not just move out of the neighborhood and get Victoria out of their hair for good? Everything is pretty boring.

The only explanation that makes sense is that she's awake and knows the threat that Henry poses.  But yeah, I really can't tell what has changed since Henry's arrival.  As far as I can tell, Cinderella and Jacinda act exactly the same... impulsive and quick to anger.  We don't actually have any other characters where we can decide if they're any different.  From what little we've seen, Tiana seems pretty with-it and confident.

In Season 1, the present-day worked because Henry was so desperate.  The present-day worked because each plotline (at least in the first half of the season) had an impact on Emma herself.  Whereas Adult Henry as a protagonist doesn't have too far to go to what he used to be.  The present-day in Season 1 also worked because we saw how Regina harassed innocent people.  The only person we've seen Victoria harass is Jacinda, and she isn't very likeable.  

Quote

I've always felt like I was in the minority about this, but in S1 I enjoyed the Storybrooke stuff more than the Enchanted Forest. The past informed the present and it was good to get the background, but I liked seeing the cursed characters change as their true selves came out over whatever story they were telling from the past.

It was 50/50 for me.  Sometimes, I liked the present-day, when Emma got to be kickass or made a big breakthrough, or had awesome character moments with Henry, Mary Margaret or a guest star.  Sometimes, I didn't like the present-day when we had to watch Emma being frustratingly played by Sydney, Regina, or Gold.  

Quote

I know they're only two episodes in, but there is so little there.

I suppose starting with the third episode, they might start to do some of the "characters discover their true selves and fight back against evil".  But the problem runs deeper, if we don't care about any of the characters, or we can't buy into the real world situations because they're so outlandish and laughable.  Which are my biggest problems with the requel so far.  

Edited October 16, 2017 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

I think A&E got so caught up with woobifying villains and making female characters appear "badass", that they forgot to make Cinderella remotely likable. She has zero charm and personality. Hitting someone and attempting murder does not make a woman badass. It just makes her an ass.

Edited October 16, 2017 by Rumsy4

[Camera One]

18 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

I think A&E got so caught up with woobifying villains and making female characters appear "badass", that they forgot to make Cinderella remotely likable. She has zero charm and personality. Hitting someone and attempting murder does not make a woman badass. It just makes her an ass.

The last time they did that was with Merida.  Clearly didn't learn from their mistake.

They've really lucked out with their casting over the years, and with their "Wonderland" spinoff too.  It's surprising they got 2 of their leads so wrong this time around.

I totally didn't realize Andrew J. West was in "Dead of Summer".  Glad I didn't realize until now... would've held it against him.

Edited October 16, 2017 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

The history of six seasons is working against them for me. It doesn't matter that these are new characters and a new story. It's the same old curse we've seen cast five! times before. The first time it seemed like this curse was super hard to cast. Regina spent months gathering the ingredients and preparing. It was the worst thing ever. In S3, Pan easily found the ingredients (I guess Regina stocked up in case she needed to do it again) and used the heart of someone he knew but didn't really have feelings for. Then Snow cast it and it didn't even require killing her True Love. In S5, Merlin was apparently able to cook it up with the condiments available at Granny's and Hook used Merlin's dead lover to circumvent the whole heart of the thing you love most bit. By S6, the heart of the thing you love most wasn't even a thing anymore. You just need some basic wolf's bane. The curse is so watered down and pointless now that there is little to worry about with it.

As to breaking the curse, well, in S1, True Love was crazy hard to find. Snow and Charming were supposedly unique in having it. Emma being a True Love Baby is what made her the Saviour. How could they ever find it again? This was going to be hard. S3 found Regina ripping up the original curse scroll and broke Pan's curse. That was easy. Then they repeated the original curse breaking by kissing Henry in 3B. I don't even think they ever broke the curse in 5A Maybe killing Hook/Nimue broke it? S6 had Rumpel killing the Black Fairy and it was over. What's hard about that? And if we're stuck to True Love's Kiss to break it, well that's not hard to find anyway. Go for a walk in the woods and find your True Love. That guy you rode a bike with 30 odd years ago? That was totally True Love. There is no worry or suspense because it's so damn easy to resolve this issue.

[Camera One]

Within the second episode, they already made realm hopping quite easy.  They needed to start off this requel tightening the rules, not loosening them.  

As for breaking the Curse, I assume their main bet on the story was to make the viewers want their memories to return and for the couples torn apart to be reunited.  If that were a slam dunk, then how the Curse would break is almost a moot point.  They also think the big mystery is who cast the Curse.  To them, that's already a huge deviation from their Season 1 formula (even though they did it in 3B and 5A).  

[KAOS Agent]

Quote

I assume their main bet on the story was to make the viewers want their memories to return and for the couples torn apart to be reunited. 

I'm not sure how this is an issue in S7. Both Henry and Cinderella/Jacinda are single in both past and present. There isn't anything keeping them apart in Seattle or in the Enchanted Forest 2.0. There's nothing stopping them from dating, falling in love and getting married (which would set up an easy custody resolution) and moving to sunny San Diego. It seems more like Cinderella/Jacinda is just not into Henry and he's got some sort of weird insta-love thing going on, which makes him an idiot. Why would I want these two together? The only reason they've given me for this is because they have a child, but that's not something to hang a relationship on. I at least need to see Cinderella showing some minor ounce of interest in Henry and it seems clear that she couldn't care less in the past or the present. 

In S1, Snow & David had all kinds of issues keeping them apart in the past, but at least the love was mutual and obvious even from the start. In Storybrooke, David & Mary Margaret fell in love even while cursed, but David was married and cursed into being an asshat and Regina added to the mess with her shenanigans and so there were large obstacles to overcome there too. I had reasons to cheer for them to get together. This was also aided immensely by the fact that the actors were falling for each other in real life adding to the feelings of love we saw onscreen. Henry/Cinderella have been touted at the new Snowing, but what they're putting out there is not even remotely close to what I got with Snowing.

[superloislane]

5 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

I've always felt like I was in the minority about this, but in S1 I enjoyed the Storybrooke stuff more than the Enchanted Forest.

I love the Storybrooke side more too. For me that's the side that made the show interesting since that was the basis of the show - fairytale characters in the real world and the story of the Savior and the curse

[daxx]

Not feeling Henry/Jacinda either. I'm really only watching for this new Hook and to watch his redemption arc. I wouldn't even mind a LI but I think his arc will be all about his daughter and I don't expect another season.

[Shanna Marie]

Looking at differences between the way season one worked and the way this season is being set up:

Season one started with the iconic romantic moment between Snow and Charming, then moved forward into what was supposed to be their happily ever after, with their wedding and the birth of their daughter, so that their separation had more of an emotional impact when we saw him in a coma and Snow alone in Storybrooke, with both of them unaware of their daughter's presence. Season seven hasn't established any kind of relationship or connection between Cinderella and Henry, so we have no reason to desperately want them to get back together. We haven't seen Lucy's birth or their relationship with Lucy in the past, so we don't get that same connection or loss in the present. Victoria has taken Lucy away from Jacinda, but the mechanism behind that makes no sense in the real-world setting, and Jacinda and Lucy at least know they're really mother and daughter. There are no emotional stakes because they haven't really established what the "real" situation looks like. We don't know how long they've been apart. In season one, we knew it had been 28 years for Emma without a family. We saw her parents being devastated at having to send her away. We saw the cut from the infant to adult Emma. We have no such connection like that for Lucy.

Season one showed us who the fairy tale characters were. There were a few surprises that came out in flashback episodes, but otherwise, we knew fairly quickly because we saw the whole gang together. We saw the dwarfs at the glass coffin, saw the strategy sessions with the dwarfs, Granny, Red, Jiminy Cricket, and Blue, so we recognized that all these people were there in Storybrooke. In season seven, we've seen Cinderella, her stepmother and stepsister, Alice, and Tiana just in passing, aside from our returning characters. We needed to see the lazy guards hanging out outside the palace during the ball, letting Cinderella run past without stopping her until they later learned that she was being chased, and then recognize them as the cops in the police station who couldn't be bothered to look for a stolen car. We don't even know who in Hyperion Heights is a storybook character and who isn't. I was expecting the chicken place boss and clumsy coworker to show up in the flashbacks and was trying to guess which characters they were, but they don't seem to have been anyone other than an excuse for Jacinda to quit her job. In season one, Henry hadn't been there for any of the events but had pieced it all together with the book. He'd figured out who was who, and showed and told Emma. In season seven, we don't know what Lucy knows. She's interacted with people who should be characters in her book, but has shown no sign of recognizing them, hasn't pointed anyone out to Henry. She sent Henry to Roni's bar, but hasn't said that she's the evil queen who adopted the character Henry (is the character Henry Mills, or did Lucy just figure out that it was autobiographical?). She didn't recognize Rogers as Hook -- seriously, Hook's story in the book presumably ended with him becoming a police officer, and there's a one-handed cop in the neighborhood. We don't even know why Lucy thinks the book is true. It's not some magic storybook that has illustrations that picture everyone in town and that tells a story drastically different from every other book of fairytales. It's a novel that's apparently widely available, and she's not latching on to any of the points of evidence that might suggest it was true, like people who look like several of the major characters being there in the neighborhood.

[Kktjones]

So I just saw this gem on Adam's twitter feed:

Adam Horowitz‏Verified account @AdamHorowitzLA

We have a carefully constructed timeline. We have fab graphs and charts tracking everything. But it would spoil to share now. Maybe l8r!

Did he ever stop to think that if the writers need to have graphs and charts to keep track of the timeline, it might be a little too complicated for the general audience to follow? ISTG these guys are just so arrogant they think it's so clever to make things this confusing, but all they're doing is alienating existing viewers and preventing new viewers from jumping in.

[orza]

26 minutes ago, Kktjones said:

So I just saw this gem on Adam's twitter feed:

Adam Horowitz‏Verified account @AdamHorowitzLA

We have a carefully constructed timeline. We have fab graphs and charts tracking everything. But it would spoil to share now. Maybe l8r!

Did he ever stop to think that if the writers need to have graphs and charts to keep track of the timeline, it might be a little too complicated for the general audience to follow? ISTG these guys are just so arrogant they think it's so clever to make things this confusing, but all they're doing is alienating existing viewers and preventing new viewers from jumping in.

Or maybe he was just making a joke.

[Rumsy4]

40 minutes ago, Kktjones said:

So I just saw this gem on Adam's twitter feed:

Adam Horowitz‏Verified account @AdamHorowitzLA

We have a carefully constructed timeline. We have fab graphs and charts tracking everything. But it would spoil to share now. Maybe l8r!

Did he ever stop to think that if the writers need to have graphs and charts to keep track of the timeline, it might be a little too complicated for the general audience to follow? 

I think it's good to have them. I make tables & outlines when I write multi-chapter fics. The unbelievable part to me is that they have graphs and charts. If they actually worked to keep track of these details, the show wouldn't be in this mess.

Most likely the axis markings for timelines go something like this: a very very long time ago, a long time ago, some time ago, yesterday. For realms, the table headers are probably: enchanted forest, another realm, a distant realm, a different realm, Storybrooke, Seattle.

Edited October 16, 2017 by Rumsy4

[KingOfHearts]

S7 already suffers from the same problems we've had for the past several seasons. The writers are concealing large amounts of crucial information because they have in store isn't that good. They're hoping sheer shock value and anticipation will keep us tuning in. They would not have be resorting to contrived twists and cheap reveals if their story was solidly engaging, cover to cover. S1 could reveal a lot more in the first couple of episodes because there was much more information and it was all well thought out. It did not hinge on the mystery, but rather the characters and the setup. Finding out who the characters were and how things happened were pleasant surprises. While we needed flashbacks and the twists and turns to understand the overall plot, the Storybrooke could still hold its own... for the most part. I still think it dragged in the middle.

7x02 was a very odd second episode. It didn't really expand on any of the new characters other than Rogers, but he's a catch-22. A&E say you can supposedly jump right in without any knowledge of the first six seasons. Yet, the second episode revolved solely on tying up loose ends. New viewers would have questions like, "Who's Emma? How can she be his mother? Why is there another Rogers? Are we going to see her and him again?" Other than the Wish!Hook stuff, none of it added to the current storyline. S1 didn't start detouring into other characters' stories until the fourth episode. Rogers is not a driving force of the Hyperion Heights arc in this stage of the game. It's still about Henry, Jacinda, Lucy, Victoria, etc. While 1x01 was enough to draw viewers in, 1x02 kept them engaged by remaining ultra-relevant to the main plot. By the time Cinderella's centric rolled around, we were already invested in the story. In 7x02, there is so little investment that the writers are turning to two Hooks and a pregnant blonde we'll never see again. The ballet recital didn't even leave any dent.

2B was a freaking masterpiece compared to where the show is now. 

[Shanna Marie]

1 hour ago, KingOfHearts said:

S7 already suffers from the same problems we've had for the past several seasons. The writers are concealing large amounts of crucial information because they have in store isn't that good. They're hoping sheer shock value and anticipation will keep us tuning in.

I think the fact that they seem to think that surprise is the only thing that matters is a big part of this season's problem. They're withholding too much for fear of "spoilers" when giving us some of this information would help it make more sense. I can see why they didn't want to give away the deal with Hook/Rogers in promo stuff because that was a genuinely good surprise twist. That was one of those good "ooh!" moments that even made me want to rewatch the Rogers parts of the first episode to see if there were any clues. It might have helped to save that one for later and build up more, making us think Rogers was our Hook so there would be a bigger impact from the surprise and to make Rogers a more integral part of the present-day story first, but I can see why, realistically, that couldn't happen. For one thing, they may have had to work around Jen's schedule and when she was willing/able to shoot. For another, they had to know that a lot of fans were leery of continuing with this season until they knew how things worked out for Hook and Emma. They needed to answer that question very quickly. It seems they're still losing a lot of people who are no longer invested now that they know that Rogers and any Hook we see going forward aren't actually the Hook we spent six seasons with, but there were also people refusing to watch until they knew for sure that Emma and Hook's happy ending/beginning wasn't destroyed and that they weren't separated by the curse. It was a no-win situation, and answering the question quickly was probably the surest way to hang on to the most viewers.

But they're withholding way too much info about the curse -- the who, the why, and what the curse actually did. In season one, we knew that Regina cast the curse to punish Snow White, that the curse created Storybrooke, froze it in time, and gave everyone cursed identities that were essentially punishments, making them be their worst selves or weaker versions of themselves and that separated a lot of people from their loved ones. That was in the pilot. The story of the season was exactly why Regina wanted to punish Snow, and working in the background was the real reason behind the curse, why Rumple wanted the curse cast but also wanted to set up a Savior who would break it. In this season, we know there was a curse and that it set up a neighborhood in Seattle, or maybe just plopped a bunch of fairy tale people into a neighborhood in Seattle with cursed identities to make them fit into the modern world. Some people are separated from loved ones, but others aren't. We don't know enough about their non-cursed identities to know what effect the curse has on them. We don't know who cast it or why. We aren't really sure how it works or who's affected by it. It seems like we should know at least something, either the who or the why, at the very least more details of the what.

I really can't see why telling us something about the timeline would be such a spoiler. What could it possibly have hurt to have had Emma or Regina say in this latest episode something like, "Wow, you grew up so fast! You've only been gone six months," with Henry replying, "Six months? So I guess you all didn't find some miracle anti-aging cream. It's been eight years for me. Time must move faster in the worlds I've visited." That would have explained things in that episode, surely without giving away any major plot points.

But I think the real weakness is the characters and relationships. We're supposed to care about Henry and Cinderella the way we cared for Snow and Charming, but they haven't given us any reason to do so. In the pilot, we started with Charming rushing to TLK Snow, and his urgency suggested that this wasn't some random chick in a glass coffin he happened to notice (as in the fairy tale), but was someone he cared about. When she woke, they obviously had a real connection and history. We saw their wedding. We saw them working together to find a solution to the curse. We saw her giving birth to their daughter and having to hand that daughter over to him right away. We saw him desperately fighting his way through the Black Knights to reach the wardrobe and having to send his daughter away. We saw Snow finding his lifeless body just as the curse hit. We barely knew them, and yet we got some good snapshots of who they were and what their relationship was -- plus they had the added benefit of being a canon couple, depicted as being very much like a lot of the familiar iconography associated with that story, so all this information was added to what's been established in popular culture.

In contrast, the first episode here showed Henry riding urgently to something, colliding with Cinderella's carriage, him offering her a ride and her knocking him down and stealing his motorcycle, him trying to talk her out of murder, then them fighting their way out of the ballroom, with her ditching him but leaving the slipper. We saw a lot of events, but no real emotion or connection. They're not a canon couple and they don't fit any of the popular images, so the writers needed to work extra hard to show us that they were better than the canon, or else set it up as a twist where it only looks like the prince at the ball is going to be Cinderella's prince, and it's really Henry who's Cinderella's prince (since he is, technically, a prince). They needed to show us a connection between them so that we'd feel like something was wrong with them being separated. It also doesn't help that there's not actually anything keeping them apart in the present. They could be together if they wanted to. She just doesn't like him. I don't get any sense of them feeling a connection even if they don't understand it or being drawn together. In season one, it was like David and Mary Margaret knew with every fiber of their beings that they belonged together, no matter what obstacles Regina threw at them. Henry and Jacinda could get together right now if they wanted to. He seems to want to, but she doesn't and seems to wish he'd just leave her alone. He's coming across as a well-intentioned stalker who isn't picking up on the hints that he's not wanted, and that's not exactly the stuff of epic romance.

[Camera One]

5 hours ago, Kktjones said:

So I just saw this gem on Adam's twitter feed:

Adam Horowitz‏Verified account @AdamHorowitzLA

We have a carefully constructed timeline. We have fab graphs and charts tracking everything. But it would spoil to share now. Maybe l8r!

Did he ever stop to think that if the writers need to have graphs and charts to keep track of the timeline, it might be a little too complicated for the general audience to follow? ISTG these guys are just so arrogant they think it's so clever to make things this confusing, but all they're doing is alienating existing viewers and preventing new viewers from jumping in.

Adam and Eddy wouldn't know what a graph is if the X and Y axis flew off and hit them in the head.  Though it's almost funny that they would make a joke about it when it totally highlights their biggest failings as showrunners.

4 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

7x02 was a very odd second episode. It didn't really expand on any of the new characters other than Rogers, but he's a catch-22. A&E say you can supposedly jump right in without any knowledge of the first six seasons. Yet, the second episode revolved solely on tying up loose ends. New viewers would have questions like, "Who's Emma? How can she be his mother? Why is there another Rogers? Are we going to see her and him again?"

I don't see how any new viewer would make sense of the whole Wish Hook explanation. 

2 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

It might have helped to save that one for later and build up more, making us think Rogers was our Hook so there would be a bigger impact from the surprise and to make Rogers a more integral part of the present-day story first, but I can see why, realistically, that couldn't happen. For one thing, they may have had to work around Jen's schedule and when she was willing/able to shoot. For another, they had to know that a lot of fans were leery of continuing with this season until they knew how things worked out for Hook and Emma. They needed to answer that question very quickly. It seems they're still losing a lot of people who are no longer invested now that they know that Rogers and any Hook we see going forward aren't actually the Hook we spent six seasons with, but there were also people refusing to watch until they knew for sure that Emma and Hook's happy ending/beginning wasn't destroyed and that they weren't separated by the curse. It was a no-win situation, and answering the question quickly was probably the surest way to hang on to the most viewers.

I agree it was not an easy situation to deal with.  Based on the responses on the episode thread, I think their goal of keeping some Colin fans watching did succeed with the Wish Hook reveal.  I guess they prioritized that over the new viewers (who may be non-existent).

Quote

But I think the real weakness is the characters and relationships.

This is the biggest problem.  People can forgive a lot if they really like the characters and want them happy.  The problems are all very similar to the last few seasons - shoddy worldbuilding, withholding information to delay a twist, plot driving character and forced/contrived scenarios that make little sense.  The difference is most people couldn't care less about Henry, Jacinda, Lucy or Victoria.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

 I guess they prioritized that over the new viewers (who may be non-existent).

Quote

This is the biggest problem.  People can forgive a lot if they really like the characters and want them happy.  The problems are all very similar to the last few seasons - shoddy worldbuilding, withholding information to delay a twist, plot driving character and forced/contrived scenarios that make little sense.  The difference is most people couldn't care less about Henry, Jacinda, Lucy or Victoria.

I agree with this. They're not going to attract any new viewers because the new story sucks. Henry, Jacinda, Lucy, and Victoria are all horrible characters. The plot makes no sense even by this show's standards. Perhaps I'm judging too soon into the season, but nearly every arc prior had a better setup in the first two episodes. S1 had the Pilot and The Thing You Love Most, which we've already covered in this thread in detail. S2 had Broken and We Are Both, which introduced Uncursed!Storybrooke and the fallout, respectively. S3's episodes gave us a taste of Neverland's atmosphere and Pan's capabilities. S4 started off with plenty of Arendelle story, as well as the relationship between Emma and Elsa. In S5, we dove right into the Dark Swan mythology and Camelot. Finally in S6 we met some of the Land of Untold Stories folk, got teased with the Savior mythology, and saw Clone Queen get busy with her diabolical schemes. It's laughable when S6 had better opening episodes. They were terrible, but still had more going for them in the present since they were more upfront about what was going on. There was less tell, more show.

Edited October 17, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[tennisgurl]

Its weird how the writers really dont seem to get what really worked about season 1, despite the fact that they're the ones who created it. Half the fun of the first season was getting hints and glimpses of the fairy tale world in Storybrooke, or getting foreshadowing in the Enchanted Forest about life in Storybrooke. We also knew that all the people we met there were in the fairy tale world, so everything and everyone we met was connected to the story. Here, we have no idea who in Hyperion Heights is involved in this, and who isn't, and the only fairy tale characters seem to be the main characters, and we know who they are, so that takes a lot of the fun out of it. Plus, we dont really know the fairy tale characters, even in the basic ways we knew them in the start of season one. Really, they all seem just like they did in the EF (or wherever this is supposed to be set), with only a few little jokes here and there, so whats even the point? 

It doesn't hurt that, as many other people have said, no one really has much in the way of chemistry. In the first episode, Josh and Ginny had so much natural chemistry, and we saw them right away as a happy couple who loved each other and their daughter, and we saw their horror over what was going to happen to them right away. It made us feel sorry for them and be invested in their reunion. Here, Henry and Cinderella dont have much spark, and we haven't seen them happy or with Lucy or anything beyond "Cinder punches Henry and steals from him, and leaves a slipper. He follows her around", and thats not much to root for. How are they so incompetent at this? THEY DID IT ALREADY! 

Also, in my re-watch of season 1, I just got to the episode where Blue tells Rumple that the only way to get to another world to find Bae is through the Dark Curse, and I laughed my ass off. Honestly, I have no clue if she was deliberately lying, or if she was that clueless. There are, like, a million ways to jump from place to place. It might have been an impossible task requiring years of Machiavellian planning back then, but now? Its basically taking a red eye from LA to Chicago. And thats a long trip. 

Edited October 17, 2017 by tennisgurl