A Thread for All Seasons: This Story Is Over, But Still Goes On.

[Camera One]

2 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

I just rewatched the scene with Snowing. I love how after they realize they need to get to Emma, Snow immediately goes "We must enact the Dark Curse." In a world of magic beans, was that really the first thought? Like I get it if they exhausted other options, but she went really quick to that.

Some of the 4B flashbacks should have been devoted to trying some of those other ways.  

Quote

I'll never forgive the writers for not having Zelena make Rumple cast the dark curse using Neal's heart.

That would only have made sense.  But of course they needed to have Snow commit all the same sins as Regina to show they really aren't all that different. 

Quote

I love how Glinda's light magic wasn't strong enough to take down Zelena but Regina's was. 

Granted, Glinda's light magic couldn't do anything.  Did this show's version of the Wizard actually have powers?  Glinda actually thought he could help Dorothy when she couldn't.

[KingOfHearts]

In this scene, Snow potentially dooms her entire kingdom because she felt bad about killing Cora. She suggests to save Regina by throwing the failsafe into a portal, and immediately the town* goes with it because they've always trusted Snowing. Hook is the only person with any sense here until he gives in. (Although I do love the moment when he finds out Henry's father is Baelfire here.) 

This no petty Regina hate here, but trying to save her could get everyone killed. It's not they're throwing her off a cliff - she wanted to sacrifice herself. Does every time someone sacrifice themselves to save someone else mean that a "future is being built on their blood" and that's bad? There's also the argument that they don't want Henry to lose his mom on the same day he lost his dad, but still - priorities, guys. You can't just put an entire population into danger over one or two people like that.

* Literally just Archie and a few dwarves

[Camera One]

That was one of the candidates in 2B for this show's "jump the shark" moment.  Or maybe it's Henry beside the well in "Welcome to Storybrooke".

Edited August 20, 2022 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

That was one of the candidates in 2B for this show's "jump the shark" moment.  Or maybe it's Henry beside the well in "Welcome to Storybrooke".

I'm not sure if this was the "jump the shark" moment or the catalyst for that moment, but I believe it was the scene at the end of 2x09 where everyone goes to Granny's to celebrate Snow and Emma's return. There's a lingering shot of Regina sad and alone that's played to the balcony. It wouldn't have been so bad if 2B was about Regina being tempted back to darkness and choosing to stay good, but we know how it actually turned out.

Edited August 20, 2022 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

12 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

I'm not sure if this was the "jump the shark" moment or the catalyst for that moment, but I believe it was the scene at the end of 2x09 where everyone goes to Granny's to celebrate Snow and Emma's return. There's a lingering shot of Regina sad and alone that's played to the balcony. 

That scene gets me every time!  It's my go-to whenever I need a good cry.  

[KingOfHearts]

I totally forgot Will Scarlet was in S4. That was probably the biggest waste of a character this show ever did. OUATIW was superior to pretty much everything after S3... YouTube keeps reminding me of just how astronomically bad OUAT was. It's all really funny in retrospect but sad how much time its viewers wasted in investment. I still don't know how the writers screwed it up so bad. I dont understand the thought process behind many of their decisions.

Edited August 23, 2022 by KingOfHearts

[KAOS Agent]

3 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

I dont understand the thought process behind many of their decisions.

This implies that they were actually thinking about things. Mostly their thought process consisted of "Wouldn't it be cool if..." and then they were stuck making crap that never made any sense.

[KingOfHearts]

7 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

This implies that they were actually thinking about things. Mostly their thought process consisted of "Wouldn't it be cool if..." and then they were stuck making crap that never made any sense.

I think "Wouldn't it be cool if..." is great for the initial brainstorming, but after that, there needs to be actual planning and a filtering of ideas. Doing "cool" mash-up stuff is part of the draw of the show. But eventually it stopped even being "cool" stuff people even wanted to see. The writers lost touch with both the realities of their show's own universe and what fans wanted to watch.

[tennisgurl]

1 hour ago, KingOfHearts said:

I think "Wouldn't it be cool if..." is great for the initial brainstorming, but after that, there needs to be actual planning and a filtering of ideas.

I know I've said it before, but its just so true. Good writers don't always make for good show runners. A&E are idea guys, they come up with lots of cool ideas and concepts, like the show itself, but they have no idea how to actually turn those cool ideas into a coherent story line. Writers can throw tons of things at the wall to see what sticks, but a good show runner can take those and figure out what does and does not work within an actual story structure. But because they had idea guys as show runners, we ended up with a total mess that had individual scenes and episodes that worked, but was an absolute narrative mess because they couldn't handle creating a real story that worked or a universe that made sense. 

[Camera One]

1 hour ago, KingOfHearts said:

I think "Wouldn't it be cool if..." is great for the initial brainstorming, but after that, there needs to be actual planning and a filtering of ideas. 

I don't think it's possible to understand A&E's thought processes in a logical sense.  Sometimes, the "Wouldn't it be cool if..." was the twist, often the outcome of the arc ("I think we should have Snow be the one to cast the Curse!), and then they would haphazardly work backwards, with limited care to actual character motivations ("But why would Snow cast the Curse?  Well, to get back to the Savior, of course!). 

Or the whole chain of events would be a "Wouldn't it be cool if..." like the usual toddler story.  Some of A&E's "Wouldn't it be cool if..." involved their shiny toys (What if Aladdin was a Savior!), and they rarely thought beyond that.

Finally, to truly understand A&E, everything would need to be viewed through the lens of R&R-ism... what can we do to make viewers identify with and cheer on Regina and continue the love/hate we feel towards Wumple, no matter the consequences for the other characters.  Those biases are what truly sunk them early on.  By 2B, some of the main characters were simply mindless chess pieces on a loop.

The planning was also constrained by their inflexible narrative structure, with centrics and flashbacks.  It would be hard to write a coherent flowing story when they arbitrarily designate a certain number of episodes to each character and then come up with a flashback which tie to whatever the character was feeling/doing that episode, which often did not serve the overall story or arc.

The staff writers sometimes expressed how busy they were, so I can imagine that most of the time was spent rushing to the deadline, especially in the latter half of the season, which were often weaker than the first half.  2B, 3B and 4B were quite a mess.  5B might have fared better because the premise was much simpler, though the finale was really bad.

Although A&E continued to have irregular sparks of great ideas for five seasons, I think their well really was dry by Season 6.  Everything in that season was derivative or pushed into the realm of farce because they kept trying to push their previous plotlines one step further (eg. So we've done the Dark Curse 3 times already.  Now what?).  In Season 7, everything was taken to a new setting, but most of the storylines and characters were done-before, just dressed up differently.

Edited August 23, 2022 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

5 hours ago, Camera One said:

5B might have fared better because the premise was much simpler, though the finale was really bad.

I completely blocked out was the S5 finale was... was that where Rumple was in New York and Henry tried to destroy magic?

I also forgot Rumple almost died in S2. I actually really like Rumple's speech to Amnesia!Belle over the phone. This is also probably one of the best Rumple/Neal interactions we got in the entire show, albeit brief. Rumple going out in a blaze of glory was always the right move in my opinion. Him dying at the end of 3A would've been the best sendoff for his character. I almost forget he dies at the end of S7 because at the point his death doesn't really doesn't mean much.

Edited August 23, 2022 by KingOfHearts

[KAOS Agent]

Season 1 is the only season that I find to be re-watchable pretty much the whole way through. There were filler episodes that I'm not a huge fan of, but it's got a cohesive narrative that actually ends in a fairly satisfying conclusion. The twists are interesting and often are worked well into the story. There are also quite a lot of character relationship moments which make us care about the characters and actually lets them show real emotions to things that happen to them. 

I love Hat Trick more than any other episode of this show and it's so telling that the writer of that episode had nothing to do with the show at all and was able to come in and write something so completely awesome that fit the tone of the show. It was full of really awesome quotes from Jefferson. Like this one, "You know what the issue is with this world? Everyone wants some magical solution for their problem, and everyone refuses to believe in magic." It's just right and I'm sad that guy never wrote another episode.

Sadly, it's also annoying to watch Season 1 because I know that  the anticipation of comeuppance for Regina will come to nothing and the reunion of Emma and her parents is lackluster and highly unsatisfying and this will only get worse as the series goes on.

[KingOfHearts]

5B's handling of the Mills family was weird. I don't think Cora would've let Zelena come over to EF so Regina could have a playmate. Why would she even think of risking it being discovered she had an illegitimate daughter she gave away? There was also the weird mirroring between Regina/Zelena as kids and Snow/Charming. I don't believe it was implied ever elsewhere that Regina was like Snow before the incident with the stable boy. The "Sisters" episode had a pretty heartwarming message but Cora, Regina, and Zelena didn't seem to even be the same characters in it. That just made it all the more retcon-y. Then after all that, Regina blames Zelena for her boyfriend killing her boyfriend even though Zelena killed her own boyfriend to save everyone, like... K. I don't know why the writers went all the way trying to make those two besties only to yank them apart for most of S6.

Edited September 9, 2022 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

13 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

I don't believe it was implied ever elsewhere that Regina was like Snow before the incident with the stable boy.

I think they eventually felt they could do whatever they wanted in the flashbacks, but I remember thinking when I watched this episode for the first time that she *could* have been a young Snow.  In that way, it's a little manipulative how they can make viewers like/sympathsize with a villain by making them the polar opposite when younger.

Quote

I don't know why the writers went all the way trying to make those two besties only to yank them apart for most of S6.

The two main reasons always seems to be (1) drama (2) bold and audacious bantering.  Characters in conflict can drive a plot and create obstacles, especially since they were relying on manufactured drama by S6 anyway.  The other reason is the writers' room just loved to write love/hate banter.   I suppose we got to see Regina and Zelena's closeness in S7.  Thank goodness for that final season, eh?

[KingOfHearts]

On 9/9/2022 at 11:41 PM, Camera One said:

  The other reason is the writers' room just loved to write love/hate banter.   I suppose we got to see Regina and Zelena's closeness in S7.  Thank goodness for that final season, eh?

I think Regina and Zelena living together could've created enough "love/hate" banter. The sisters would have to juggle the awkwardness of what just happened in the Underworld, what happened to their boyfriends, and then baby Robyn being there too. Neither of them really needed something like Clone Queen there to rip them apart. I actually thought it was super sad in S6 that Zelena was made to live in the farmhouse all by herself with the baby while all the other villains were cozied up in town in their mansions. No one stopped to think maybe leaving Zelena alone might not be a good idea. They wouldn't want her to go all evil because no one ate her green lasagna.

I also just think Regina and Zelena being roommates would've been comedy gold. They actually had some sisterly chemistry when they worked together in 6B and S7.

Edited September 11, 2022 by KingOfHearts

[KAOS Agent]

Elsewhere on the internet, someone posed a question that got me thinking. This is a show where the episodes weren't always all that great, but individual scenes and interactions between characters were excellent. So what were some of your favorite scenes in the show?

One of my top scenes is between Emma and Jefferson in S1 where they discuss the possibility of the existence of magic. Jefferson's words do a really good job of encapsulating the where Emma and the audience and their mindset clash with the show's premise. I wish they'd been more true to this overall. All of the doors and all of the worlds he mentions in this scene in this quote:

"A real world. How arrogant are you to think yours is the only one? There are infinite more. You have to open your mind. They touch one another, pressing up in a long line of lands. Each just as real as the last. All have their own rules. Some have magic, some don’t. And some need magic. Like this one."

As disappointing and as much of a letdown as it was, I also like the scene in S2 where Emma and Snowing are somewhat alone for the first after the memories are returned and Emma believes. David's awareness that pushing Emma is a really bad idea and Snow's refusal to let it go and Emma actually telling the real truth about the whole giving her her best chance stuff. It was some of the most truthful this show ever got to covering the damage Regina's curse had done and how their own actions had led to Emma's life.

Snow: We’re together – finally. And I can’t help but think you’re not happy about it.

Emma: Oh, I am. But, see… Here’s the thing – no matter what the circumstances, for twenty-eight years I only knew one thing. That my parents sent me away.

Snow: We did that to give you your best chance.

Emma: You did it for everyone, because that’s who you are. Leaders, heroes, princes, and princesses, and that’s great. A-And amazing. And wonderful. But it doesn’t change the fact that, for my entire life, I’ve been alone.

It gets left there and is never really addressed again, but this is where I think Emma's feelings remain. She moves on and deals, but this is always the reality. It also pisses me off that the next time everyone finally gets to be reunited and happy, the show focuses on how this makes Regina sad.

[Camera One]

My favorite scenes were some of the moments between Emma and Henry and Emma and Snow in Season 1.  There was also a scene between Emma and David that I liked, but I don't remember from which season.  

6 years ago on this date, we were all "eagerly" awaiting Season 6 Episode 4 "Strange Case":

Quote

The Evil Queen and Hyde work to steal Dr Jekyll's serum, Snow looks forward to returning to teaching, and when Emma anticipates that Hook will be moving in, he works to protect Belle from Mr Gold.

I don't remember the details of this episode, which I do not plan to rewatch.  But on paper, those key events mentioned in the brief episode description could have been interesting.

It didn't help that the overarching Evil Queen plot was uninspired.  The flashback twist on the Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde tale was alright.   But on the more human, grounded subplots, the writers made uninteresting choices.  Snow was getting no character development by this point.  I'm not sure whether the "Emma anticipating Hook moving in" had any good character moments.

It just reminds me again how this show became an empty shell of its former self.

Edited October 16, 2022 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

23 hours ago, Camera One said:

It didn't help that the overarching Evil Queen plot was uninspired.

I think it would've worked for me if they had gone with the "Evil Queen" not actually being evil, but it being vanilla "Regina Mills" all along. I would've liked it if Clone Queen was sick of Regina constantly blaming her for her problems. It would've been a way for Regina to learn to take responsibility for her own mistakes than blaming them all on a persona she adopted. Clone Queen shouldn't have had a body count. (The only person she killed was the Oracle, and that was pretty unnecessary.) This would've all made the "you need to learn to love yourself" lesson a lot easier to swallow. It's funny how they basically said you should the love the part of yourself that slaughters villages. 

Quote

Snow was getting no character development by this point.  I'm not sure whether the "Emma anticipating Hook moving in" had any good character moments.

I think it would've been good to see more than 5 minutes of Snow being a teacher again or Emma going to therapy. I still hate everything they did with Emma in S6, especially after the writers made her a punching bag through pretty much all of S5. 

Edited October 17, 2022 by KingOfHearts

[KAOS Agent]

11 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

I think it would've been good to see more than 5 minutes of Snow being a teacher again or Emma going to therapy.

Not gonna lie, watching Snow teaching for more than 30 seconds was too much for me. An actual storyline for her would have been nice, but then Ginny Goodwin just had baby #2 in between S5 & S6, so I don't think she wanted to actually do anything. She could have done something more than send Emma to Archie for therapy so she could go console Regina and then yell at Emma for actually seeing the therapist and taking his advice and working through her issues. Wow, I forgot how much I hated S6.

Was this the season where we actually see Snowing say that they are sacrificing Emma's happiness for everyone else and closing the door on her? That was totally giving her her best chance. And then when Snow confessed, Emma didn't react. To be fair though, Emma had clearly figured this out by the first episode of S2, it just took four years for Snow to get on the same page.

[Camera One]

7 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

but then Ginny Goodwin just had baby #2 in between S5 & S6, so I don't think she wanted to actually do anything.

Well, doing "anything" would have been better than what we got.  Her character was used to fill time or service other characters (eg. Regina) or provide some lame "hope" speech to show how hopeful this series was.  Writing properly for Snow doesn't necessarily require more screentime, just better use of what she had.

[KingOfHearts]

2 hours ago, Camera One said:

Well, doing "anything" would have been better than what we got.  Her character was used to fill time or service other characters (eg. Regina) or provide some lame "hope" speech to show how hopeful this series was.  Writing properly for Snow doesn't necessarily require more screentime, just better use of what she had.

I think giving Snow moments like her conversation with Emma in Lost Girl would've been rewarding. Quality over quantity and making good use of her limited time. Maybe tie some loose threads by giving her small interactions with random townspeople. Have her and Granny briefly reminiscence and talk to her about how Ruby is doing. Have Zelena apologize to Snow for kidnapping Snowflake. Show a scene with Snow and Geppetto showing they're in a much better place in their friendship now. Having Snow go on an unofficial tour catching up with the various side characters would've been good build-up for when they ask the town for help with the sleeping curse later.

[tennisgurl]

On 10/15/2022 at 8:38 PM, KAOS Agent said:

One of my top scenes is between Emma and Jefferson in S1 where they discuss the possibility of the existence of magic.

That's one of my favorite scenes as well, I just love that episode in general. The acting, the creepy atmosphere, the whole speech about the multiverse, the Alice in Wonderland connections, its one of the shows best episodes. 

As far as other one off scenes I really like but only in the context of one scene, I love the scene in Murder Most Foul (an episode that I HATE) where Hook talks Charming out of killing George and Charming cries on his shoulder. Its a great moments of character growth for them, both individually and in their relationship, and it leads to another scene I love, when Charming gives Hook his blessing for Hook to ask Emma to marry him. Charming genuinely admits that he's changed for the better and teases him about how old fashioned he's being in wanting Emma's dad blessing, its just such a sweet cute bit, something that was so often forgotten in that season with the show rushing from one plot to the next.

Then its all ruined with that awful, stupid, pointless retcon about Hook killing Charmings dad, but those scenes are still really good. 

[CCTC]

On 10/18/2022 at 1:28 PM, tennisgurl said:

Then its all ruined with that awful, stupid, pointless retcon about Hook killing Charmings dad, but those scenes are still really good. 

It is too bad they did not do more with David and Hook than replay the same cycle of distrust to trust about three different times and then forgetting they were friends or close to it and repeating the same arc.  The two actors worked well together, and once Goodwin checked out, they might have been some of the more interesting scenes for Dallas.  In general, I think Goodwin is probably a better actor than her husband but feel like he was still putting in an effort until the end.

At least they remembered that they were no longer episodes a few episodes later for the finale.  The Hook Charming beanstalk adventure might have been one of the highlights even if it ended up being pointless.  It did make me think at the time of how they had totally gotten away from having any fun fairy tale adventure scenes.

One scene that stood out for me in a mediocre season, was the opening scene they did at the opening of the episode after Heartless, where there was no dialog, but you saw Charming and Snow alternatively awake in their apartment reading the notes they left for each other.  I am not usually a fan of the music soundtrack or montage scene, but it was effective and showed  real consequences of the curse,  At the time, I might have had some hopes for things improving, because the Queen really was more ruthlessly evil and not camp in the previous episode, and this scene showed some real emotion.  Alas, I was wrong.

The talk about Emma and Snow and not resolving the issues that were addressed in season 2, made me think for some reason Emma seemed to have a warmer relationship with David than Snow.   Nothing in the script or plot to suggest that was true, but there scenes just felt more heart-felt for some reason.  Except for season 1.  The one thing that caught my attention when I rewatched that was - wow - Emma and Mary Margerat actually used to interact and have conversations that were not just hope cliches.  

Edited October 19, 2022 by CCTC

[Camera One]

2 hours ago, CCTC said:

Except for season 1.  The one thing that caught my attention when I rewatched that was - wow - Emma and Mary Margerat actually used to interact and have conversations that were not just hope cliches.  

I think the last time they had a one-on-one conversation scene that lasted more than 40 seconds was "Lost Girl" at the beginning of Season 3.  That's why I wondered if the actresses had a feud and refused to have scenes with one another.  How else can you explain taking one of the best parts of the first season and eliminating it utterly and completely.

[KAOS Agent]

7 hours ago, Camera One said:

How else can you explain taking one of the best parts of the first season and eliminating it utterly and completely.

Easy. They simply didn't notice.  They weren't interested in that part of the show and didn't want to write for it, so they never noticed that it completely disappeared. The fans that enjoyed those moments aren't the type to be vocal either. The shippers and the devoted Evil Regals are out in force, but people who like the show for its quiet character moments between mother and daughter aren't screaming on Twitter or at conventions about how their favorite is being mistreated or about how they want more. 

I believe the lack of Snow and Emma interaction was pointed out to one of the writers sometime during S6 and that person was genuinely surprised (probably more surprised that there wre people who even cared about this).