S03.E07: Dating in the Light

[SongbirdHollow]

46 minutes ago, Desert Rat said:

No need for lawsuits over whether an individual is or is not transgender. 

 The lawsuit in question is about whether an individual sexually assaulted another person, not whether they are transgender or not.

 

48 minutes ago, Desert Rat said:

It's degrading and demeaning to women.  

Making it one's business to care if a trans woman pees next to you is demeaning to trans women.

[gingerella]

I smell bullshit on Shane, Jazz's "date". No kid his age says shit like "I dont care what she has between her legs". I'm sorry, that's just not realistic thinking for a kid his age, unless he's gay or experimenting with his own sexual identity. I also sense he has some sort of social issue, like maybe mild Aspberger's - something is just off about that kid, nice though he was on the date...

[Desert Rat]

8 minutes ago, SongbirdHollow said:

 The lawsuit in question is about whether an individual sexually assaulted another person, not whether they are transgender or not.

 

Making it one's business to care if a trans woman pees next to you is demeaning to trans women.

It's not about transgender people.  But please answer the question.  What does it mean to be transgender and how can we know the difference to determine whether someone is abusing the new restroom policy or is legitimately transgender?  What is the standard?  I have asked repeatedly, but no one seems to have a answer. Is there an answer?  

Edited August 6, 2017 by Desert Rat

[SongbirdHollow]

9 minutes ago, Desert Rat said:

It's not about transgender people.  But please answer the question.  What does it mean to be transgender and how can we know the difference to determine whether someone is abusing the new restroom policy or is legitimately transgender?  What is the standard?  I have asked repeatedly, but no one seems to have a answer. Is there an answer?  

The standard is "Are they sexually assaulting someone?"  It doesn't matter if they are transgender or not. That's the whole point.

We should probably have taken this to another topic in this forum several posts ago. Sorry mods.

[Desert Rat]

15 minutes ago, SongbirdHollow said:

The standard is "Are they sexually assaulting someone?"  It doesn't matter if they are transgender or not. That's the whole point.

We should probably have taken this to another topic in this forum several posts ago. Sorry mods.

No, this relates directly to the bathroom issue raised on the show.  Nice try changing the subject, though.  Jazz thinks MTF transgender people should be allowed in women's restrooms.  My question is what is transgender?  What is the standard for determining if someone is really transgender and should be allowed to use the women's room verses some man who is simply pretending to be transgender for the thrill of going to the ladies room? Do you have to wear a dress? Have breasts?  Bottom surgery?  What is the standard that Jazz wants or are we simply going to allow any man into the women's room and take their word for it that they want to be a woman, even if for just that one day?

[Bastet]

40 minutes ago, Desert Rat said:

What does it mean to be transgender and how can we know the difference to determine whether someone is abusing the new restroom policy or is legitimately transgender?  What is the standard?

Why does it matter?  If they are just in there peeing, it doesn't.  And if they're in there assaulting someone, or recording them, or any other crime, it doesn't matter, either, because the crime is the issue, not whether the offender is transgender or cisgender.  Use the bathroom you want, and don't harm anyone while you're in there is simple.  The only ones trying to make rules about who goes where based on x, y, z factors out of this are the people trying to pass new legislation to suddenly ban what has been happening as the natural way of things - people using the restroom that matches their gender identity.

Kudos to those willing to continue to wade through this.  I've reached my limit.

[Granny58]

@Scarlett45   Sorry I glossed over your mention of the sib group.  I was mowing the lawn, thinking about it, and realized I hadn't said a word.  I think it is absolutely rotten that anybody would have any problems whatsoever with any gender person who needed assistance having them use the bathroom of the caregiver.  It actually makes more sense than the caregiver having to use the bathroom of an opposite sexed disabled person.  A disabled person is not a threat.   Unfortunately, there will always be jerks who feel quite entitled to say horrible things.  

[possibilities]

2 hours ago, Cotypubby said:

 I'm curious what was it that made this suddenly become an issue a few years ago?

It's always been an issue. I've heard for a long time about trans people who are terrified in public because so many get assaulted when they attempt to use the bathroom. As long ago as the early 1990s I was personally aware of it, including people for whom it was a major life issue. I have also known cis women who were assaulted in public places because someone THOUGHT they were trans. There is a big problem of hate crimes (by which I mean violent assaults, not people having intellectual disagreements) against people who either are or are suspected of being trans.

But the reason I think it has become a public policy issue that has gained so much media and political traction lately is a another matter. I think that is because of a couple of different things.

1. LGB rights, like marriage equality, have been gaining momentum, and T issues have often been lumped into that same general pot, so that now T issues are also being discussed more also, both by advocates and by opponents.

2. As more and more people no longer demonize LGB people, it has become a political wedge for politicians to mobilize support "against the terrible erosion of our culture" now that they can't fund raise off the fear and loathing of LGB people to the same degree-- bathroom bills are being proposed by anti-trans politicians, not by trans people themselves.

 

1 hour ago, gingerella said:

I smell bullshit on Shane, Jazz's "date". No kid his age says shit like "I dont care what she has between her legs". I'm sorry, that's just not realistic thinking for a kid his age, unless he's gay or experimenting with his own sexual identity. I also sense he has some sort of social issue, like maybe mild Aspberger's - something is just off about that kid, nice though he was on the date...

I am not saying it is or it isn't staged. It's certainly very possible the show cooked it up and gave him his lines. But we've not been given any information about Shane to tell us that he isn't gay or bi or experimenting, or that he doesn't have a social issue of some kind, so it's certainly possible all of that is in fact the case. It's also possible he was raised in the community (i.e. by LGBorT parents, or has family members, or other acquaintances) and that has made him more comfortable with these issues.

When I was 16, I knew people in all those categories, who were variable in their sexual orientations and attitudes, and able to articulate it. It's not common, but it's not impossible. And the presence of cameras makes it even more likely that someone would be willing to say or do something unusual, since the shy, retiring, run of the mill, not really paying attention conformists of the world are usually not willing to participate in ANY of what a TV show would offer. They had to have recruited the participants for the Dating in the Dark segment, and have them sign releases to be filmed. So that will screen out pretty much every ordinary person just looking for a date, and leave you with either unusual people or those looking for notoriety of some kind. And we also don't know if they disclosed during recruitment that some of t he participants would be trans. They might have done so, to avoid having to scrap the film and start over if anyone freaked out or behaved too horribly, which wouldn't fit with the tone TLC is going for.

1 hour ago, Desert Rat said:

It's not about transgender people.  But please answer the question.  What does it mean to be transgender and how can we know the difference to determine whether someone is abusing the new restroom policy or is legitimately transgender?  What is the standard?  I have asked repeatedly, but no one seems to have a answer. Is there an answer?  

If someone is living as transgender all the time, there you are. Anyone who lives as trans all the time just to get into a bathroom illicitly is so crazy they are going to have problems elsewhere in their life. If someone who is generally living as cis, and then one day claims to be trans, behaves horribly, and gets caught, all that will come out in the investigation. There is a lot of difficulty a person will face from being trans. If you only claim to be trans when you go into a bathroom, and claim cis pronouns and identity the rest of the time, you become an obvious fraud.

Misbehavior is what I think we can regulate, and what will make people safer to regulate, not identity itself.

Honestly, most trans people are not looking for trouble. There's enough trouble they can attract just by existing. Anyone who makes trouble, whether they are trans or not, needs to be dealt with, and all people, trans or not, need to be protected from troublemakers.

It may not be possible to have a perfect rule. But if we criminalize misconduct, we have a best shot at protecting everyone than if we try to base rules on things that are not inherently related to the conduct. ANYONE can harass or misbehave. If a cis woman was in the  bathroom peeking in the stall cracks or staring at the women changing in the locker room, she should be in trouble. Just because she has a right to be there, doesn't mean she has a right to peep. You can't really make a rule that protects against this unless the rule is based on behavior rather than identity.

 

44 minutes ago, SongbirdHollow said:

The standard is "Are they sexually assaulting someone?"  It doesn't matter if they are transgender or not. That's the whole point.

We should probably have taken this to another topic in this forum several posts ago. Sorry mods.

I concur.

Edited August 6, 2017 by possibilities
so manee typoz

[TomGirl]

2 hours ago, ClareWalks said:

Grandpa said he doesn't think Jazz needs to be dating right now (and I agree with him!).

Maybe I'm just hopelessly old fashioned, but why shouldn't a 16 year old date??  So far, what we've seen of Jazz's dates has included roller skating, trampolining and sharing pizza.  She's not jumping into bed with anyone.  What on earth is the big deal?

[Granny58]

2 hours ago, Impatient said:

When I was reading the Daily Mail today they described a transgender woman who transitioned at 14 with hormone blockers,, then synthetic estrogen.  This was in London and paid for by the National Health service. She did not have any surgery.  She decided after a year she was not satisfied living as a woman, there was still something wrong, so she transitioned back and lived as a gay man.  Now she is re-transitioning to female, and paying for it herself, since there has been a huge hew and cry.  

And the thing she is doing first?  She is having EE implants made.  Which I am sorry, makes the WHOLE story ridiculous.  

It just does project women back to a time of being nothing but a collection of body parts.

So again....what does it mean to "feel" male/female?   Still not able to pin this down.   Or does it not mean anything, but there is a fixation on ATTRIBUTES of the other gender that are desired.  

[ClareWalks]

Just now, TomGirl said:

Maybe I'm just hopelessly old fashioned, but why shouldn't a 16 year old date??  So far, what we've seen of Jazz's dates has included roller skating, trampolining and sharing pizza.  She's not jumping into bed with anyone.  What on earth is the big deal?

I think at this point there is more external pressure on Jazz to date than there seems to be any interest from Jazz herself. Jeanette is VERY invested in Jazz dating. Jazz occasionally mentions wanting to "fall in love," but holy shit, that is the last thing any 16-year-old needs to be focusing on, especially since Jazz would be using her time more wisely by researching the types of surgery she wants to get very soon. Being a teen girl and experiencing dating rejection is bad enough, but being a transgender teen girl suffering from depression (and possible anxiety) experiencing dating rejection? She just doesn't need to bother with it, IMO. Although I never dated anyone in high school and didn't feel bad about it, so I am coming from a "high schoolers don't NEED to date, in general" place.

[Granny58]

2 hours ago, ClareWalks said:

@Impatient I would be very interested to see statistics of the number of people who transition who end up transitioning back, or at least being highly regretful about transitioning in the first place. I am guessing the number is quite low, since it seems that most people who transition are dang sure about what they want to do beforehand. It might be more of a challenge with the very young kids who transition, though.

I read an article recently that TG youth, who don't go onto transformative measures, about 85% of them end up feeling comfortable in their natural bodies....after going through puberty!  I would not be able to find that article again, sorry.  But say the percentage is wrong and it is 65%....(it's not that low, but let's say), preventing puberty and starting the transition too young is potentially a regrettable decision and one that takes away the chance for changing one's mind and for biological children.   If somebody has reached adulthood and wants to do it, fine...their choice.  I am very uneasy about Jazz's situation...who won't ever get through puberty to see if it was the right choice or not.  I understand it makes it FAR easier for Jazz to pass as female (i.e. than Noelle) but was it the right thing to do?

[Granny58]

2 hours ago, Cotypubby said:

I think where the disconnect is coming in is, OK let's just assume that there will be a minuscule percentage (and as small as the actual TG % is, this will be even tinier) of men who will claim to be TG to use the women's room. OK let's say that is all true. That still would not give them the right to be a peeping Tom or to flash their penis at a woman or to assault anyone. None of that would suddenly become OK.

 

AFAIK, transpeople have always used the bathrooms they felt most comfortable in and it's never been an issue until the past few years. It's a pretty good bet that at one point in your life, the people in this thread have shared a bathroom with someone TG without knowing it. I mean, if you had never heard of Jazz before, no one would ever look at her and think she was anything but female. I'm curious what was it that made this suddenly become an issue a few years ago?

Oh, I would assume that the number of men who would say "I feel like a woman" just to get into a ladies' bathroom is greater than TG individuals.  Because there are far more creeps!  And the 2 points of your post tie together.  If one is truly TG, then go about your business, you will likely come across as female or sincerely trying, and no harm.  Yes, peeping and upskirting are illegal BUT if there is all this publicity and calling attention to the creep in the dress gets you called a HATER, then you don't do it.  There was a story this year when this happened at Disney and none of the women felt comfortable making a stink even though it was evident that the guy was just a creep in a dress.  And the Planet Fitness story where the ladies were told they were free to quit the gym but the guy they reported was free to walk around the lady's dressing room.  

[possibilities]

4 minutes ago, Granny58 said:

So again....what does it mean to "feel" male/female?   Still not able to pin this down.   Or does it not mean anything, but there is a fixation on ATTRIBUTES of the other gender that are desired.  

I agree the show has not focused on this enough. I do remember early in the series (I think 1st season), Jeannette said she didn't care what younger Jazz was interested in, that she emphasized that both girls and boys could like trucks or pink, but that Jazz was not satisfied with this and still kept insisting she was a girl, period, the end.

One thing I have heard from trans people in general is about body dysphoria, so that they literally feel like their bodies are wrong. This is very different than people who identify as cis but don't fit a gender stereotype in terms of their fashion sense or other interests.

I understand that to some people it sounds like an anti-feminist proposition to say that what defines a person's male or female status is about superficial trappings. But that is not what I think is being said. I also think the nature vs nurture argument cuts both ways. Another feminist principle is that we should not let others control or define us. I think that the enforcement of the fixed binary has been used to hurt women, and in some ways the existence of trans people challenges that, as well. If there is less enforcement and more empowerment for ALL people, it won't matter as much who gets which label, and there wouldn't be as much of a concern about preserving the privilege of one vs another label for political or social purposes. It would all be about your relationship with yourself, which is a fairly feminist idea the way I see it.

[MegD]

1 hour ago, SongbirdHollow said:

1 hour ago, Desert Rat said:

No need for lawsuits over whether an individual is or is not transgender. 

 The lawsuit in question is about whether an individual sexually assaulted another person, not whether they are transgender or not.

Having worked in criminal law, I can tell you that what will end up happening if the current "no standard" standard is used. I will preface this by saying that in all situations, assume that the predator assailant is faking being transgender to access their prey. Some courts will just throw out these cases, no matter what. In other cases, the person would be convicted. The next step would be the slander, emotional distress, etc. that the assailant would file demanding compensation for the victim's reporting of assailant. Assailant would be able to say "see, I got off, I am the real victim and you should pay me" as their grounds. They would also sue the cops, the city, the property owners, etc. and some of those defendants are going to pay "nuisance" suit money just to get or keep it out of the press, turning this into a shame the victim moment. For those convicted, first they will appeal the conviction because the judge and jury failed to give their belief sufficient proof. This is probably also followed by a suit against the victim. That's why I would want some sort of standard, written as broadly as possible, to cover actual transgender individuals as well as prevent predators from manipulating the situation to suit their purposes. I also think that increasing the number of family bathrooms available is important as well.

1 hour ago, SongbirdHollow said:

2 hours ago, Desert Rat said:

It's degrading and demeaning to women.  

Making it one's business to care if a trans woman pees next to you is demeaning to trans women.

The longer this show goes on, I think it is degrading and demeaning to women. Both Jazz and Jeanette seem to think that "being a teenage woman" is about long hair, boobs, "America's Next Top Vagina", makeup, and dating to find a husband. Women are so much more than those things. At this point, I don't think Jazz should be dating at all because she's clearly not comfortable around boys. She seems to think that on the first date, one should have this deep connection instead of just learning to go out and have fun.

 

4 minutes ago, possibilities said:

I do remember early in the series (I think 1st season), Jeannette said she didn't care what younger Jazz was interested in, that she emphasized that both girls and boys could like trucks or pink, but that Jazz was not satisfied with this and still kept insisting she was a girl, period, the end.

We only have Jazz and Jeanette's story on this. Part of the reason she has the show is that she says she's always had a "girl brain and a boy body". Given that even before this show, Jeanette was making the talk show rounds with Jazz's story, it was and is in their best interests to keep this going, even if it's all made up whole cloth by Jeanette and Cousin Debbie. It may be that the story had snowballed so far out of control there was no unwinding it. It may be that it's a bit like a case where the child is convinced that they are deathly allergic to milk and Mom goes out of her way to be hyper-aware of this in front of everyone. Even when the child is old enough to make their own decision, they remain fearful of milk because of how they are raised. I know someone who claims that she is deathly allergic to milk, soy, and gluten. Going out to dinner with her is a trip because she will order things that may contain these items and not say anything to the waiter. When it's delivered, she rants and raves about it until she gets attention. This has even spread to her daughter sobbing at the table because "the waiter's trying to kill Mommy." The only way for my friend to end this would be for my friend to admit she's lying, which is not going to happen. Assuming that everything in Jazz's background was skewed for performance and attention and not real intent, it's far too late for Jeanette to stop this train.

[Desert Rat]

50 minutes ago, Bastet said:

Why does it matter?  If they are just in there peeing, it doesn't.  And if they're in there assaulting someone, or recording them, or any other crime, it doesn't matter, either, because the crime is the issue, not whether the offender is transgender or cisgender.  Use the bathroom you want, and don't harm anyone while you're in there is simple.  The only ones trying to make rules about who goes where based on x, y, z factors out of this are the people trying to pass new legislation to suddenly ban what has been happening as the natural way of things - people using the restroom that matches their gender identity.

Kudos to those willing to continue to wade through this.  I've reached my limit.

I want to make sure I understand you.   You are saying anyone can use any restroom they choose without limitation, male/female, trans/ not tran.  Is that correct?  

Edited August 6, 2017 by Desert Rat

[Desert Rat]

28 minutes ago, Granny58 said:

Oh, I would assume that the number of men who would say "I feel like a woman" just to get into a ladies' bathroom is greater than TG individuals.  Because there are far more creeps!  And the 2 points of your post tie together.  If one is truly TG, then go about your business, you will likely come across as female or sincerely trying, and no harm.  Yes, peeping and upskirting are illegal BUT if there is all this publicity and calling attention to the creep in the dress gets you called a HATER, then you don't do it.  There was a story this year when this happened at Disney and none of the women felt comfortable making a stink even though it was evident that the guy was just a creep in a dress.  And the Planet Fitness story where the ladies were told they were free to quit the gym but the guy they reported was free to walk around the lady's dressing room.  

Thank you.  You understand the problem.  I think others are trying to ignore these legitimate concerns.  If you complain, you will be label a bigot, chatter or worse.  The message is, "Women should shut up and put up with more abuse from men. "

[Impatient]

Just a few points from me and then I'll sign off.

As to "checking someone's gender" prior to using the bathroom, that is not the issue.  The issue is whether a perverted cis man, who is a voyeur or who is threatening in some other (possibly violent) way, can claim to be a transexual merely as a means to an end, namely, to gain access to a women's changing room, or bathroom or locker-room.  So the issue becomes problematic only after this happens, presumably a few times.  If such men are detained, and the cops haul him away (And admittedly, this WILL mean the cops have to be willing to take this seriously), I think it would stop seeming a cheap way to get your thrills.  If penalties are harsh, I would imagine this will stop being a problem, or certainly not more of a problem than it is now.  

In terms of people asking what the, for lack of a better word, recidivism rate is (i.e., people who undergo sexual reassignment surgery and then regret it), as far as I have been able to discern, it is about 20%.  But it is difficult to say.  The anecdotal reports say 20%.  Peer-reviewed scientific journals are far more negative and report the percentage of such patients as being closer to 50%.  Given that the number of people who report gender confusion in early childhood and who self-resolve that confusion (i.e., stop feeling they are trapped in the wrong body) is 80%, I actually think the science may be more accurate than the anecdotal evidence.  I NORMALLY  think peer-reviewed scientific journals are more accurate than anecdotal evidence, but the push back from the trans community is so strong that this becomes a difficult position to take.  So I am waffling a bit.

The thing that Jeanette says all of the time that drives me crazy, is that the suicide rate is so high that she allowed Jazz to be a 3 year old girl with a penis because they didn't want her to die.  However, the incidence of suicide in this population is not the least bit mitigated by sexual reassignment surgery.  It remains just as high.  Not in the 80% who are self-resolving, only in those maintaining transgender identification.  This, by the way, is why the gay community is SO furious with the whole transgender movement:  Their feeling is that this represents nothing more than a societal attempt to eliminate gay people.  That most of these children develop into healthy, happy, well-adjusted gay people, if not hormonally blocked and diverted.  

Lastly,  someone here said, 'Would someone please define transgender?  No one has done so, despite my asking repeatedly'  Something like that, words to that effect.

Well yes, but that brings us full circle.  The comments I have been making here since this season started are that this show provides an opportunity to address those questions:  what is the underlying biology in transgender individuals that accounts for gender dysphoria?  Is gender dysphoria an acquired mental illness or just another gender phenotype?  Have neuroanatomists using MRI or CAT scans or PET scans identified ANY differences in controlled studies in the brains of transgender youth vs wild type controls? Where have they looked and why have they looked in these particular areas of the brain?  What do animal models tell us?  What about the self-resolving individuals?  Do changes occur later in development that account for that change in self-perception?  What about other biomarkers?  Are there GWAs that have been done (genome wide association studies) that look for genetic differences in these individuals?  What about microarrays (to look for differences in gene expression, and not necessarily just mutations).  I personally know these questions and a million others that are important to ask,  but because this is not my field, I don't know who has done what or what the current state of the art is.  It would take a long time to bring myself up to date.  BUT if the Big Bang Theory can have a team of scientific consultants in the background,  to make sure that their sitcom gets science right, week after week, year after year, I would think the Learning Channel (founded by NASA please remember) should be dedicated to doing the same.  Instead they turn it all into a political fight between social justice warriors willing to push this agenda vs everybody else, who simply want to know more, who simply want to understand what exactly we are talking about here, and what the long-term effects of this are going to be --- on the innocent children on whom these science experiments are being conducted.  

Jeanette never ever talks about the most damning thing of all:  ALL of the things Jazz has experienced have been done off-label.  That means there have been NO FDA approvals, no clinical trials, no long-term studies on the use of these hormonal blockers of synthetic hormones in children.  The hormone blockers were developed to treat cancer patients, who had hormonally responsive tumors:  testicular tumors in men, prostate tumors in men, and breast and ovarian cancer in women.  Using them in 10 years olds has never been studied  Furthermore, several of the doctors Jazz has seen are transgender themselves (D. Christine McGinn, Dr. Marci Bowers).  The endocrinologist who checks in with Jazz even though he is no longer her endocrinologist?  He is a drug company rep who represents the manufacturer of the testosterone blocker.  
If I were Jazz's mom, I would be doing so much research into what is being done, what the long-term effects are.  How on earth could this wealthy, well-educated couple not have known that Jazz would experience significant side effects from not having a normal male puberty?   Vaginoplasties have been done in the US since 1966.  

If I were the parents of a 3 year old child, I would suggest loving that child, indulging that child in sequins and sparkle, buy that child dolls and high heels.  But i would not be looking for gender dysphoria diagnoses at that early early age.  And I would not lie and insist this child is  gender that is not his biological gender.  And I would NEVER allow such potent life altering drugs to be administered to my 11 year old child.  That woman asking the questions at Grandpa Jacs lecture said she was afraid of taking hormones.  That was the first time we have heard anything so common sense in the entire show.

 

P.S..  Greg is pretty submissive.  I notice though that no mention is EVER made of his side of the family.  Of his parents, or siblings or anyone else.  Does anyone know the story there?
 

[Granny58]

@Impatient    I LOVE YOUR POST.  YES YES YES.      I never read that the gay community is infuriated by the trans community or that untreated gender confused children who ultimately go on to accept their bodies are homosexuals.  The people I've heard on the radio, for example, go on to be grateful for their birth gender and have hetero relationships and bio kids.  But you seem very knowledgeable and so I will assume you have read far more than I have on the subject.

[Impatient]

Oh Granny 58, let me hasten to correct one thing.  It is not necessarily true that self-resolving gender dysphoric children revert to homosexuality.  I don't think that has been confirmed or quantified.  But it IS true that 80% of children claiming to be "trapped in the wrong body" stop feeling that way without treatment.  They are self-resolving of that conflict.

Yes, the gay community is furious about this whole transgender acceptance movement, and especially the idea that these are children with  congenital abnormalities that must be medically and surgically corrected.  

[Muffyn]

The bathroom laws were not first proposed by the transgender community.  The latest laws were proposed in reaction to laws that were aimed at forcing people to use the bathrooms that matched the gender they were assigned at birth, regardless of transition status.  So, transgender men with full facial hair and other male identifiers would be expected to use the women's room.  Transgender women who were living their lives as women, dressed in what we consider women's clothing, etc., would be expected to use the men's room even if they appeared as women. 

The transgender people I know use the restroom that most fits how they appear.  So  yes, there are women with penises using bathroom stalls in the women's room.  There are men with vulvas using stalls in men's room.  And for many of them, you would never know. 

Being a cisgender woman who is not always seen as gender conforming, I have been personally subjected to harassment in women's rooms.  This has happened for a long time.   I am tall, have a deep voice and broad shoulders.  so there are people who have taken umbrage at my being in the women's restroom.  Female friends with short hair are also subject to harassment.  I tend to fall to the idea  of people just want to pee and get on with their day.  That's it.  Are there creepers?  Yes.  Was the issue of men dressing as women to get into the women's bathroom a real issue prior to this transgender debate a serious issue.  No.  The level of harassment that non-gender conforming people are subject to does not make this something that would be common.  As has been stated, regardless of gender it is not okay to assault someone in a public restroom, to look at people's genitals, to peep under stall doors, etc. 

As to the argument that the gay community does not support the transgender community, I will  take that to the questions thread since it does not seem relevant to this episode.  I will also address the issue of what makes someone transgender and peer-reviewed research since those are more general questions.  Feel encouraged to follow me there.     

[PrincessPurrsALot]

Folks, 

A gentle reminder that this is a TV forum, not a place to debate the existence of transgender people.  Please keep the discussion on the episode thread to things covered in the episode.  We are allowing respectful discussion of the bathroom issue since it was covered on this episode.  If your comment is not related directly to the show, you have a few choices:  if there is a question you would like to ask, enter it in the questions thread; if it is about the family, use that thread; if it in no way directly relates to the show, you'll need to find somewhere other than here to have that debate. 

If you've made your point, move on.  This includes stating your point and having others not agree with you.  Repeating the point multiple times will not alter the agreement or disagreement.  We will not all agree on every issue.    

Finally, remember sometimes the ignore feature really is your friend.  If someone's posts always set you on edge, ignore them.  Your blood pressure will thank you.

Happy posting! 

[TwirlyGirly]

On ‎8‎/‎6‎/‎2017 at 2:27 PM, Desert Rat said:

<snip> 

I do have some sympathy for Jazz. She didn't really choose this. As I understand her story, she started transitioning at a very young age, say 3 years old, before most have any concept of difference between boy and girl.  And why was this path chosen for Jazz?  Because according to the parents, Jazz preferred girl stuff, dolls, dresses, etc.  No wonder Jazz seems so angry and depressed.  Anyone man would be if deprived of their manhood simply because when they were a toddler they played with dolls instead of trucks. Apparently, Jazz said at a young age she wanted a vagina. Who talks like that?  Most girls, unless they are abused, don't know they have vaginas until they near puberty.  Which leads me to another weird thing about Jazz and the talk of wanting a "beautiful" vagina.  Does Jazz have any concept of female anatomy?  Does Jazz know that it is an integral organ?  Good grief. 

 

Not exactly. According to the American Academy of Pediatrics, most children begin gender identification between the ages of 2-4 years old.

And while when I was a child, it was typical for parents to teach their children "cute" names for their private bits, for the past 20 or so years it has been recommended parents teach and refer to their children's private parts using their accurate anatomical names. This is to protect children should they be sexually abused. It is far easier to protect young victims who can say "He put his penis in my vagina" than a victim who can only express "He touched my pee-pee with his pee-pee."

My daughter just turned 21 this May. She knew the correct anatomical names for all of her private parts at the age of two, and knew she had a vagina.

On ‎8‎/‎6‎/‎2017 at 6:28 PM, Impatient said:

Oh Granny 58, let me hasten to correct one thing.  It is not necessarily true that self-resolving gender dysphoric children revert to homosexuality.  I don't think that has been confirmed or quantified.  But it IS true that 80% of children claiming to be "trapped in the wrong body" stop feeling that way without treatment.  They are self-resolving of that conflict.

Yes, the gay community is furious about this whole transgender acceptance movement, and especially the idea that these are children with  congenital abnormalities that must be medically and surgically corrected.  

I suspect you are referencing studies performed in both Canada and The Netherlands, which are often touted by anti-gay/anti-trans organizations as well as the far-right/religiously motivated "American College of Pediatricians" (not to be confused with the American Academy of Pediatrics):

Several issues regarding methodology have been identified in these studies which invalidate their claims. Here is a review of those issues:

https://gidreform.wordpress.com/2014/02/25/methodological-questions-in-childhood-gender-identity-desistence-research/

The study most often quoted is "Desisting and persisting gender dysphoria after childhood: a qualitative follow-up study" by Steensma, TD et.al., which claims 84% of the children in the sample eventually resolved as not being transgender. However, the study did not actually differentiate between children with consistent, persistent and insistent gender dysphoria, kids who socially transitioned, and kids who just acted more masculine or feminine than their birth sex and culture allowed for. In other words, it treated gender non-conformance the same as gender dysphoria. Furthermore, the study could not locate 45.3% of the children for follow up, and made the assumption that all of them had resolved as not being transgender.

Other studies have found children who meet the clinical guidelines for gender dysphoria (as opposed to gender non-conforming) have found the majority end up as transgender adults. In addition, other studies show  children who meet the clinical guidelines for gender dysphoria are as consistent in their gender identity as the general population.

 

I think we need to make a distinction between the broad term you used, "gender confusion," and the more specific terminology, "gender dysphoria" and "gender non-conforming." They are two different diagnoses. There are very specific clinical criteria that must be met for a diagnosis of gender dysphoria:

"In children, gender dysphoria diagnosis involves at least six of the following and an associated significant distress or impairment in function, lasting at least six months.

A strong desire to be of the other gender or an insistence that one is the other gender

A strong preference for wearing clothes typical of the opposite gender

A strong preference for cross-gender roles in make-believe play or fantasy play

A strong preference for the toys, games or activities stereotypically used or engaged in by the other gender

A strong preference for playmates of the other gender

A strong rejection of toys, games and activities typical of one’s assigned gender

A strong dislike of one’s sexual anatomy

A strong desire for the physical sex characteristics that match one’s experienced gender

For children, cross-gender behaviors may start between ages 2 and 4, the same age at which most typically developing children begin showing gendered behaviors and interests. Gender atypical behavior is common among young children and may be part of normal development. Children who meet the criteria for gender dysphoria may or may not continue to experience it into adolescence and adulthood. Some research shows that children who had more intense symptoms and distress, who were more persistent, insistent and consistent in their cross-gender statements and behaviors, and who used more declarative statements (“I am a boy (or girl)” rather than “I want to be a boy (or girl)”) were more likely to become transgender adults. " (https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphoria/what-is-gender-dysphoria)

Bear in mind there was no medical transitioning offered to Jazz until she approached puberty. Up to that point, all Jazz was allowed to do was to express externally (social transitioning). Even when she began puberty blockers, that was reversible. So Jazz, her doctors, and her parents - had 12+ years to sort it all out. If Jazz truly was "gender non-conforming" as opposed to having gender dysphoria, that would be apparent by now.

Edited August 8, 2017 by TwirlyGirly
Corrected "Pediatricians" to "Pediatrics"

[stacyasp]

21 hours ago, Granny58 said:

Even for a Noelle, I don't think I would be wary in the bathroom.  It is obvious that she is TRYING and takes it seriously.  But as someone said (Orangiguana?), what is the standard?   There used to be a guy at a local retailer who dressed as a woman, but you could clearly see it was a man.  I suspect it was because he couldn't afford the treatments, BUT, it is a simple enough thing for a guy to throw on a dress and lipstick and say he's TG and USE that to enter women's private areas.   But if the climate is such that you can't say anything about it (the Planet Fitness situation comes to mind), then you're screwed.   

If you watch any parade LGBT there are many transgender people that clearly cannot pass most specifically MTF transgendered, they don't all look like jazz.  Many of them have transitioned way past puberty and I for one would be a bit uncomfortable sharing a bathroom with them...the restroom is a very vulnerable place for most women

Edited August 7, 2017 by stacyasp

[Impatient]

twirly girly:  will respond to the long post in the next day or two, but just wanted to note that there are now HUNDREDS of studies on gender nonconformity and also just because the Netherlands studies, etc., are quoted by the anti-trans far right does not in any way discredit the work.  If that were the case, the far-right could cite any paper they objected to with the purpose of disclaiming it.  

[jnymph]

I love Noelle.

[PrincessPurrsALot]

Again, let's keep the thread to the episode and issues that we're discussed on the episode.  If you feel the need to respond to something from this thread that belongs in questions, you can quote the posts here, then create a post in the appropriate thread.  The quote will come with you. 

If you want to have a discussion with a particular poster, you can use the PM functionality.  They can then choose to engage in that discussion or not.  You can PM someone by hovering your mouse over their name.  On the pop-up box, you will see an option to "Message."  We are getting far off topic.   Let's bring it in.

[Ina123]

16 hours ago, Cotypubby said:

AFAIK, transpeople have always used the bathrooms they felt most comfortable in and it's never been an issue until the past few years. It's a pretty good bet that at one point in your life, the people in this thread have shared a bathroom with someone TG without knowing it. I mean, if you had never heard of Jazz before, no one would ever look at her and think she was anything but female. 

Jazz looks like a girl because her male testosterone was suppressed. Most trans are easy to discern because they haven't been. And, yes, we all probably have shared a restroom with a trans. I've probably never noticed since a public bathroom is the least likely place that I loiter. I rarely notice anyone.

Edited August 7, 2017 by Ina123

[Impatient]

I don't think i have ever seen as hairy a back as Jazz's in ANYONE her age.  What does that mean?  Why would she have a hairy back?  

[blatantlyobvious]

12 hours ago, Impatient said:

I don't think i have ever seen as hairy a back as Jazz's in ANYONE her age.  What does that mean?  Why would she have a hairy back?  

It means she has a hairy back. 

Seriously- my friend's (cis) daughter just happens to be inordinately hairy- legs, arms, back, chest, and even parts of her face. It's just how she is- genetics can be odd that way. It doesn't mean anything is wrong, she's just naturally hairy. 

[SongbirdHollow]

13 hours ago, Impatient said:

I don't think i have ever seen as hairy a back as Jazz's in ANYONE her age.  What does that mean?  Why would she have a hairy back?  

I think it means she's a mammal.

[Impatient]

Aside from the sarcastic snark, Jazz's back hair is out of the range of normal.  

[Desert Rat]

6 minutes ago, Impatient said:

Aside from the sarcastic snark, Jazz's back hair is out of the range of normal.  

Makes me wonder if they haven't secretly started Jazz on testosterone in an attempt to help Jazz have some sort of sexual response and a better outcome for bottom surgery.  

Edited August 8, 2017 by Desert Rat

[Caracoa1]

If Jazz has never had any kind of sexual response won't it be more difficult to achieve after bottom surgery?

[ClareWalks]

Although I never had dark hairs on my back, my arm hairs and such were much more visible when I was a teen (even with a fairly dark complexion) than they are now, 20 years later. Not sure why or how that works. FWIW I didn't notice any back hair on Jazz, but then again I wasn't looking for it :)

[mangosplums]

Jazz's grandpa is really annoying. I know the boy she went on a date with might have been some sort of hired person... but he seemed genuinely into her and I thought it was really sweet. 

[mangosplums]

On 8/6/2017 at 5:47 PM, Impatient said:

 

On 8/6/2017 at 6:28 PM, Impatient said:

Oh Granny 58, let me hasten to correct one thing.  It is not necessarily true that self-resolving gender dysphoric children revert to homosexuality.  I don't think that has been confirmed or quantified.  But it IS true that 80% of children claiming to be "trapped in the wrong body" stop feeling that way without treatment.  They are self-resolving of that conflict.

Yes, the gay community is furious about this whole transgender acceptance movement, and especially the idea that these are children with  congenital abnormalities that must be medically and surgically corrected.  

That's 20 percent who still go on to experience gender dysphoria into adulthood. 

[mangosplums]

On 8/6/2017 at 3:48 PM, gingerella said:

I smell bullshit on Shane, Jazz's "date". No kid his age says shit like "I dont care what she has between her legs". I'm sorry, that's just not realistic thinking for a kid his age, unless he's gay or experimenting with his own sexual identity. I also sense he has some sort of social issue, like maybe mild Aspberger's - something is just off about that kid, nice though he was on the date...

Maybe he is experimenting with his own sexuality or maybe he does have mild aspergers. Does it matter? He likes Jazz and seems nice. 

[Otter]

22 minutes ago, mangosplums said:

Maybe he is experimenting with his own sexuality or maybe he does have mild aspergers. Does it matter? He likes Jazz and seems nice. 

Maybe, but why would you think he's on the autism spectrum?  What?  We've seen a few minutes of the kid.  Is he a payed actor?  I don't know.  Is he some random kid who just happened to go to this "date"?  I don't know.  

Still find it odd that he wasn't invited into the house to wait and was subjected to Jeanette outside.  Good job Jeanette in making a kid uncomfortable (unless he was a paid plant) when you're concerned about your own kid's comfort level.  Jeanette invited in all of Jazz's trans friends -- heck, they even got to sit down.  

Jeanette is the biggest bully and taught her daughter well.  You can't even ask a question for fear of being called a hater.  Worst mother ever!  IMOO of course.

[Desert Rat]

2 hours ago, Otter said:

Maybe, but why would you think he's on the autism spectrum?  What?  We've seen a few minutes of the kid.  Is he a payed actor?  I don't know.  Is he some random kid who just happened to go to this "date"?  I don't know.  

Still find it odd that he wasn't invited into the house to wait and was subjected to Jeanette outside.  Good job Jeanette in making a kid uncomfortable (unless he was a paid plant) when you're concerned about your own kid's comfort level.  Jeanette invited in all of Jazz's trans friends -- heck, they even got to sit down.  

Jeanette is the biggest bully and taught her daughter well.  You can't even ask a question for fear of being called a hater.  Worst mother ever!  IMOO of course.

Yeah, labeling everyone haters for asking questions or disagreeing with a position is persuasive.  I have sympathy for Jazz because I think she has an untreated mental illness. I do not hate Jazz or anyone else who is transgender.  Yet, because of my opinions, I am labeled an ignorant hater.  Ad hominem attacks are not an effective way to change people's minds. 

Edited August 10, 2017 by Desert Rat

[msrachelj]

On 8/4/2017 at 5:34 PM, desertrat said:

Put rape aside for a minute.  Let me explain my problem with the the TG bathroom laws from my perspective as a woman.  The problem is there is no standard as to who is TG and who is not.  Therefore, any man could claim to be a woman on a particular day and have free and unfettered access to the women's bathroom.  That is a problem for me.  If a woman complains about a man in the women's restroom, the man can say, "Stop, you hater, you trasnsphob meanie.  I am really a woman."  Because there is no standard, we don't know if the man is sincerely TG or is a faker trying to gain access to the forbidden women's restroom.

The problem goes way beyond potential rape.  If a man exposes himself to a woman or child in a park, the man will be arrested, potentially jailed, and labeled a sex offender.  If a man peaks a woman naked or using the bathroom, the man will be arrested, potentially jailed and labeled a sex offender.  If a man walks into a woman's restroom and peaks at women and girls using the restroom and/or exposes himself in the restroom, the man will be arrested, potentially jailed, and labeled a sex offender.  This is as it should be because these sex offender laws protect women and children from sexual predators, who are, in the vast majority of cases, men.  

Now, if the TG bathroom laws prevail, woman and girls are no longer protected from these predators in the restroom.  Woman and girls can be naked in a women's restroom and locker rooms.  In my experience, most women are discrete, but, if a woman is naked for some reason, maybe changing clothes, other woman cannot complain.  There is nothing illegal or wrong about a woman being naked in a women's restroom  However, with the TG bathroom laws a man can be naked in the women's room.  A man can walk into a women's restroom, without question, and expose himself to the women and children using the restroom.  if someone complains or calls the police, the man can simply say, "I feel like a woman in a man's body,  I am TG and have the right to use the woman's restroom."  These women are labeled haters if they object to a man exposing his penis in a restroom.  Who is to say whether this person is really TG or a man committing a sexual offense against woman and girls.

Also, think about the peepers.  Under the TG bathroom laws, the peeking toms can claim to be women for the day and go into women's restrooms to get glimpses of women and girls using undressed and using the toilet.  Sadly, perverts get off on stuff like this, which is why the law prevents men from going into the women's restroom.  If the TG bathroom laws are in effect, these perverts can pretend to be woman and go into the women's restrooms to get their thrills.  If women and girls complain, instead of the man being arrested and labeled a sex offender, the woman and girls will be labeled haters and transphobs.  

And to your point, rape is also a concern.  Rape is a concern because the TG restrooms laws allows potential rapist access to woman in the restroom, a place where women and girls are most vulnerable.  Yes, it is true that a rapist will rape with or without the TG bathroom laws.  But the current laws prohibiting men from entering the women's restroom, protects women by giving them legal recourse against a man who breaches that privacy.  

I feel for Jazz, Noelle and other transgender individuals.  They don't really have a home, not in the men's room, not in the women's room.  But the answer to their dilemma is not to allow any man who claims to be a woman, without any standard whatsoever, unfettered access to women's restrooms.   Unfortunately, there are many, many more sexual predators in our communities than transgender individuals, so, I think any restroom policy must focus first and foremost on protecting women and children from these predators.      

interesting. probably not likely to happen but anything is possible.

[msrachelj]

On 8/8/2017 at 1:54 PM, Impatient said:

Aside from the sarcastic snark, Jazz's back hair is out of the range of normal.  

maybe it has to do with her nationality on her fathers side? i don't know what it is, does anyone? just curious.

but i have known more than one italian female who was very hairy. lip, arms, legs. and men, back hair like a gorilla! so maybe it is just her heritage or a combo? she looks like she has a little mustache, many women do. it can be taken care of. i didn't notice back hair, i wasn't looking that closely. but there is electrolysis for these things. 

On 8/9/2017 at 0:50 AM, mangosplums said:

Jazz's grandpa is really annoying. I know the boy she went on a date with might have been some sort of hired person... but he seemed genuinely into her and I thought it was really sweet. 

did anyone notice grandpa said something like: we are not really a big part of jazz's life..she does her thing and we do ours. something like that? i was surprised. for people who admit they do not regularly speak or interact with this grandchild they sure are fame whores. i though they were super close from they way they talk on camera.

not to say jazz isn't disrespectful and a little too obsessed with all things transgender and that grandparents have a legit point of view at times.

also, jeannette needs to lose the fugly eyeglasses. awfully gaudy.  they are not doing her any favors. being a little clumsy,  i know i would be getting my hair caught in those frames and scratching my skin and my eyeballs when putting them on and taking them off!

Edited August 11, 2017 by msrachelj

[msrachelj]

On 8/6/2017 at 5:47 PM, Impatient said:

 

"P.S..  Greg is pretty submissive.  I notice though that no mention is EVER made of his side of the family.  Of his parents, or siblings or anyone else.  Does anyone know the story there?"

i am also very curious about this. i say this freely because these people are on tv! and i want to know more. what is their real last name, more family info. they have no problem putting stuff out there so if we are curious to know more, why are they hiding? 

[msrachelj]

On 8/6/2017 at 4:52 PM, TomGirl said:

Maybe I'm just hopelessly old fashioned, but why shouldn't a 16 year old date??  So far, what we've seen of Jazz's dates has included roller skating, trampolining and sharing pizza.  She's not jumping into bed with anyone.  What on earth is the big deal?

jazz seems to be way too focused on the sexual aspects of dating.  and this from someone who is not even sure if she likes boys or girls, does not seem to even really have sexual feelings (never had an orgasm or tried to). you can be a teenager and just hang out and get to know someone. not everyone at this age is ready for more. 

[msrachelj]

On 8/5/2017 at 5:04 PM, Impatient said:

It just seems to me to be an expensive thing to do to treat 2 friends to pedicures.  when I was 16, I painted my toenails but would never have had the nerve to ask my dad to pay for a pedicure much less for that of my friends, too.  

Maybe it's just another show set-up scenario, but if it's real, ---- especially in an economy where 58% of the population survives on household incomes below $30K/year ----- it seems totally extravagant to me.  And yes Orangeiguana, I meant Noelle.  Sorry.  We do seem to make that mistake here a lot.

obviously jazz's family is well off and spoiled..so it's not out of the ordinary for her to get a pedicure. i need to spend that money on food but if you've got it, a teenager getting a pedicure is harmless fun.

[surveyandprotect1]

On 8/5/2017 at 7:03 AM, orangeiguana said:

OK, I'm in the TV industry and live in Hollywood. Nobody dresses this way out here or has the weird glasses. And I'm in my 50s. She just seems...an outlier. Really, no one in Hollywood would be caught dead with those silly specs.

I live right around the corner from where the series is being filmed and can confirm that none of the middle aged women in the area are wearing the ridiculous glasses that Jeanette wears in many of the episodes. I'm not sure where she managed to find those.

Edited August 17, 2017 by surveyandprotect1