S04.E18: Zoe's Chocolate Co

[Amarsir]

Quote

A family-owned chocolate shop was started by three siblings in support of their chocolatier father; despite circumstances becoming desperate, the family is resistant to change.

[ae2]

Before she gets any hate on here I must profess that I fell in love with Zoe a little bit when she called out Marcus on some if his usual shenanigans. Sure, eventually she caved on most things, because it's the Profit, but I was so happy to see someone question why every brand needs a "story", and why every business needs to cater to the general public with generic products, and even what it means for Marcus to be in control.

Then laughing at the churchy design and stereotypical Greek blue palette... Thank you! Yes, they're children of a Greek immigrant, but that doesn't define them, Marcus.

[Whimsy]

I agree.  I like Zoe too. I liked the change they compromised on.  She could've been more tactful, though.  Those guys worked hard on that presentation and she just shut down. 

I don't know why their story HAS to be that he got fired after blah-blah-blah years.  Why can't it just be that he's been a chocolatier for 40 years and they decided to go into business for themselves?  Also, why is it so embarrassing?  The company moved to an automated process.  Yeah it sucks, but it's not embarrassing.  People lose their jobs all the time.  Actually, my office got a HUGE budget cut (half a mil) and we are losing two people and cutting back almost ALL of our programs.  It's down to me and one other person. 

[ae2]

12 minutes ago, GenL said:

Why can't it just be that he's been a chocolatier for 40 years and they decided to go into business for themselves? 

That is basically what they've done. The story has one small line about him losing the job, but it's mostly about how chocolate brought the family together.  This is the sort of spin I would expect a branding expert to put on it, and I was surprised that Marcus didn't try turning it this direction during the episode.

[Thrifty]

It felt like they were trying to frame Zoe as the designated "bad business owner of the week" for questioning Marcus.  It was even in the episode description.  I also felt Marcus was being really harsh when the reorganization process wasn't up to his standards.  They were at least trying for God's sake!  Which is more than we can say for the Hip Pops dunderhead last week.

 

I didn't like the light blue color palette proposed.  It's all wrong for chocolates.  Most of the time, chocolate is dark (and I think all of their offerings were dark), and you really ought to go for darker colors when packaging them.  Also, I feel like you want to vary the colors beyond just shades of one color.  Look at what Lindor does with their bags of truffles.  Or Hershey and the white/dark varieties of their Reese's cups and Kit-kats.

[Whimsy]

3 minutes ago, Thrifty said:

It felt like they were trying to frame Zoe as the designated "bad business owner of the week" for questioning Marcus.  It was even in the episode description.  I also felt Marcus was being really harsh when the reorganization process wasn't up to his standards.  They were at least trying for God's sake!  Which is more than we can say for the Hip Pops dunderhead last week.

Thanks for reminding me.  I meant to comment on that.  I call complete and total BS on that.  They obviously don't KNOW the best way to set that up a shipping department.  Why would Marcus just say "do it" and walk away?  Because they needed something to pad the episode, that's why.  For the other places (I'm thinking specifically the furniture- Grafton I think- and probably others), Marcus has had people come in and do that for the business. He's taken other business owners to successful packaging warehouses in the past BEFORE telling them to fix it, too.  This was strictly to add drama to what would otherwise be a completely drama-free episode.  I hope the owners knew that going in because Marcus was way overreacting and being ridiculous in that scene.  

[GeminiDancer]

On a side note, the sons were very easy on the eyes, especially Petros.

I wish I could eat chocolate because I would be on it like crazy. The flavors they had were interesting, and I'd love to try them. In looking at the website, they did change the logo again from what was presented on The Profit, and I definitely like the newest version compared to what Zoe and Marcus agreed on. It's true to the circles that Zoe likes and the simple font gives it a modern elegance to it. I wish them great success.

[cooksdelight]

The logo sucks. Their mission statement...which is non-existant...sucks. I so want to tell Marcus we chocolate lovers could give him free feedback to get this company moving.

[Amarsir]

5 hours ago, ae2 said:

Before she gets any hate on here I must profess that I fell in love with Zoe a little bit when she called out Marcus on some if his usual shenanigans. Sure, eventually she caved on most things, because it's the Profit, but I was so happy to see someone question why every brand needs a "story", and why every business needs to cater to the general public with generic products, and even what it means for Marcus to be in control.

Then laughing at the churchy design and stereotypical Greek blue palette... Thank you! Yes, they're children of a Greek immigrant, but that doesn't define them, Marcus.

He gets his revenge by controlling the buyers though. "Gosh we'd like to give you a giant order, but we really need a partner with a blue color scheme and Greek clip art."

[ae2]

1 hour ago, Amarsir said:

He gets his revenge by controlling the buyers though. "Gosh we'd like to give you a giant order, but we really need a partner with a blue color scheme and Greek clip art."

That's exactly how I felt when the first words out of the "branding company's" mouth was, "I don't feel like your product really tells a story." That didn't sound rehearsed at all.

Edit: I realized those weren't the first words out of his mouth. He pulled one comment from the Facebook Live that Marcus did that mentioned them not telling their story, which apparently was proof enough.

Edited July 26, 2017 by ae2

[seacliffsal]

Again, Marcus' marketing weaknesses showed up.  I also thought it was funny when he went on FacebookLive and told them to get ready for a huge number of orders and there were 150.  A bit of arrogance in that Marcus thought people would line up to buy a product because he said so.  I think Marcus really understands the business process, but his marketing ideas always leave me confused.

I thought the flavors sounded really interesting.  I would like to know if Norwegian Cruise Lines still uses them and, if so, if they have increased their orders.

[cooksdelight]

Marcus has his flex watch company help them with marketing and branding, in the ML Creative offices.

Marcus.... give me 6 months. Stop paying these people. They have no idea what they are doing.

[Amarsir]

2 hours ago, cooksdelight said:

The logo sucks. Their mission statement...which is non-existant...sucks. I so want to tell Marcus we chocolate lovers could give him free feedback to get this company moving.

Marcus's defense of it was "I don't think it's so bad that people are gonna be like 'Oh S---, I'm not buying chocolate.'"

So apparently that's the bar. A logo is good as long as it's not so bad it drives people away.

 

By the way, did this need a major storefront? People are going to come in to the candy store and sit around having hot chocolate? (On chairs that didn't look especially comfortable.) I guess if they don't need the space it doesn't hurt, but I don't see a ton of added value there either.

Edited July 26, 2017 by Amarsir

[Gregg247]

I thought Zoe was great.  I liked her mix of fierceness in business with her warmth for family (plus, she was really hot!).  The entire family seemed like really nice people, and I'm glad they were doing well by the end of the episode.

I didn't fault them for not "having their act together" in the shipping department area, because they were processing 1 order a day!  Gee, Marcus, how organized do they really need to be for that?  Suddenly boosting them from 1 to 150 orders a day would send any company into crisis mode; they didn't have a process in place because they didn't have the business orders to support it.  As intelligent people, I'm sure they would have figured it out on their own once the need arose.  I hope the $100k spent on expanding the storefront was worth it.  Is there a lot demand for higher-end chocolate in Waynesboro, PA?

Marcus eats chocolate every day?  I knew he had a sweet tooth, but that's quite a habit to have!

[Thrifty]

I like the current logo.

 

I just checked Google Maps, and Waynesboro PA is a slight detour off the road I take to get back to my family back East... maybe I'll swing by on my way home at Christmas time.

[ae2]

1 hour ago, Gregg247 said:

Is there a lot demand for higher-end chocolate in Waynesboro, PA?

People who are disappointed after visiting Hershey, looking for something better?

That's actually a great point. It doesn't look like it's right near a big tourist destination, or directly along a major through-way, or a big shopping destination.

[cmfran]

16 hours ago, Gregg247 said:

I thought Zoe was great.  I liked her mix of fierceness in business with her warmth for family (plus, she was really hot!).  The entire family seemed like really nice people, and I'm glad they were doing well by the end of the episode.

I didn't fault them for not "having their act together" in the shipping department area, because they were processing 1 order a day!  Gee, Marcus, how organized do they really need to be for that?  Suddenly boosting them from 1 to 150 orders a day would send any company into crisis mode; they didn't have a process in place because they didn't have the business orders to support it.  As intelligent people, I'm sure they would have figured it out on their own once the need arose.  I hope the $100k spent on expanding the storefront was worth it.  Is there a lot demand for higher-end chocolate in Waynesboro, PA?

Marcus eats chocolate every day?  I knew he had a sweet tooth, but that's quite a habit to have!

I'm always amazed at the number of high-end chocolate companies out there. There are 2 (that I know of) in my city, and one of them has multiple retail locations. I haven't visited them very often, but the few times I have, they're always empty. Maybe they're surviving on their online sales.

[qtpye]

On a completely shallow note that adds nothing to the conversation, this is one of the best looking families I have ever seen on the show.  They also seemed professional and not crazy, which was also a plus.

Hey Marcus, I do not need a story about my chocolate, unless it somehow relates to the flavor or quality.  I think Marcus wanted the ouzo flavored chocolate to tie in with the Greek branding, though it might be good.  I think he wanted to force the colors of his other Greek cocept, The Simple Greek on this business.

I also thought the "Everything must have a story" makes sense for Flex Watches, because one of the reasons people by the product is to donate to charity and that does not apply to Zoe's business.

[sugarbaker design]

23 hours ago, GeminiDancer said:

On a side note, the sons were very easy on the eyes, especially Petros.

 

1 hour ago, qtpye said:

On a completely shallow note that adds nothing to the conversation, this is one of the best looking families I have ever seen on the show.

I don't think I could have had a meaningful conversation with the older bro without getting lost in those baby blues.

I don't think it was cool of Zoe to laugh at the branding presentation, but Mediterranean blue with a cross?  Why not go full Greek-American and feature the classic coffee to-go cup?

[qtpye]

1 hour ago, sugarbaker design said:

 

I don't think I could have had a meaningful conversation with the older bro without getting lost in those baby blues.

I don't think it was cool of Zoe to laugh at the branding presentation, but Mediterranean blue with a cross?  Why not go full Greek-American and feature the classic coffee to-go cup?

Maybe Marcus should have one of the handsome brothers dress up in armor and have him randomly scream out "This is Sparta!", at the retail location, since he wants to reduce the Greek culture to meaningless cliches for branding purposes.

[Thrifty]

10 minutes ago, qtpye said:

Maybe Marcus should have one of the handsome brothers dress up in armor and have him randomly scream out "This is Sparta!", at the retail location, since he wants to reduce the Greek culture to meaningless cliches for branding purposes.

I don't remember him wanting to do that in any way, except to pick some color that people thought was evocative of Greek culture.

[qtpye]

57 minutes ago, Thrifty said:

I don't remember him wanting to do that in any way, except to pick some color that people thought was evocative of Greek culture.

Zoe is from a Greek family who is probably understandibly proud of her rich cultural heritage, however in no shape or form did she want being Greek to define her brand.  Marcus's assclown marketing googled Greece and stuck some generic bullshit on her boxes.  She almost seemed borderline offended and frankly I do not blame her.

[ae2]

I mean, it was well-intentioned, but it was basically like telling an American emigrant to make their box red, white, and blue with a picture of the Empire State Building as the logo. That's why I don't fault her much for laughing when she saw their work.

[Thrifty]

Marcus is Greek.  I mean, ethnically he traces his heritage to Lebanon, but he was adopted and raised by a Greek couple in Miami.  So Greek culture is part of his upbringing.  You can disagree with his approach to the branding, but he's not completely out of place here.

[qtpye]

6 minutes ago, Thrifty said:

Marcus is Greek.  I mean, ethnically he traces his heritage to Lebanon, but he was adopted and raised by a Greek couple in Miami.  So Greek culture is part of his upbringing.  You can disagree with his approach to the branding, but he's not completely out of place here.

It really does not matter.  The Father came from Greece and learned the chocalate business from his in laws who were based in Baltimore.  I am not saying that the Greek angle was a bad hook, but it really was not what they were going for and the marketing research was laughable, however Zoe could of handled it better.

 

38 minutes ago, ae2 said:

I mean, it was well-intentioned, but it was basically like telling an American emigrant to make their box red, white, and blue with a picture of the Empire State Building as the logo. That's why I don't fault her much for laughing when she saw their work.

Very well said.

[qtpye]

Not to belabor the point, but if you google Greece, those churches are literally the first or second image to pop up.  

[clod]

I didn't care for the blue squares and logo that was presented.

 

almost like it had to be Greek.   and maybe Marcus was too connected to Greek stuff to be impartial.   and the cross on the logo would dissuade some customers.

[seacliffsal]

The family noted that blue and white are not normally colors associated with chocolate and Marcus responded with he wanted the clear connection to Greece.  However, i would wager that most Americans do not know the colors of the Greek flag and would not make the association with Greece.  

[Whimsy]

2 minutes ago, seacliffsal said:

The family noted that blue and white are not normally colors associated with chocolate and Marcus responded with he wanted the clear connection to Greece.  However, i would wager that most Americans do not know the colors of the Greek flag and would not make the association with Greece.  

Well, I'm not so sure about that.  I mean, there are only two colors on the flag.  I'm sure most American's are familiar enough to know that.  However, I agree with what everyone else was saying.  Them being Greek was not the story for their business.  Zoe stood her ground, rightfully so, and they moved on.  I am actually happy with the end results of that.

[Amarsir]

I do appreciate the advantage a hook can give in creating a memorable brand. Because chocolate is everywhere, including 2 in @cmfran's home town, I have no reason to order from anyone in particular. They aren't going to become a household name for numerous reasons, including their desire to avoid mainstream things like chocolate-covered pretzels. So they have to be memorable for some kind of niche. And Zoe, while a lovely lady, just doesn't stand out in the mind like Sweet Pete does.

They had two possible stories:

1) "Our father got fired so we built the business for him." Which they were understandably reluctant to do, despite phrasing it that way every time. I'd have simply said something like "Our father learned chocolate making when he was young and we built our shop 10 years ago to turn his expertise into a family business." Nothing embarrassing about that.

2) "Our family came from Greece and that's part of our inspiration for chocolate." They did have Baklava chocolate and Ouzo chocolate before Marcus showed up. So it was definitely an element. Yes it's a subset not their whole identity. But it's real.

So they didn't have a third alternative. Quality chocolate may get repeat orders (if buyers remember who it's from) but it's not going to get that first one.

Edited July 27, 2017 by Amarsir

[tobeannounced]

Instead of manufactured drama about shipping departments, I really wish they would have delved more into why this awesome chocolate wasn't selling. Also thought it was ironic that the Flex Watch guys showed up, because when Marcus kept harping on their "story," that's who it reminded me of. It would be interesting to know how they became the creators of all the online marketing for his brands (or whatever he said). 

And maybe it's my age, but I don't need a compelling story to buy a product or need to know that if I buy their widget, they'll donate a widget to a needy child. I just need it to meet my needs. 

[HunterHunted]

9 hours ago, seacliffsal said:

The family noted that blue and white are not normally colors associated with chocolate and Marcus responded with he wanted the clear connection to Greece.  However, i would wager that most Americans do not know the colors of the Greek flag and would not make the association with Greece.  

The problem with the blue and color scheme is larger than it not being associated with chocolate. Blue is rarely used in any food packaging. Blue is a color that nature has a hard time producing in food, flowers, and plants. Products with blue as the primary color in the packaging tend to be snacks like cookies, candy, ice cream, gum, and mints. Except for Kraft Mac & Cheese, foods with blue packaging are thought of as artificial, not nutritious, and not filling. Additionally, the cooler the blue is, the less appetizing it's considered.

I'm glad Zoe stuck to her guns on this issue. The blue and white packaging was terrible.

[Amarsir]

Except for Kraft Mac & Cheese. :)

[hatchetgirl]

7 hours ago, Amarsir said:

Except for Kraft Mac & Cheese. :)

Even though i love it, can we say it REALLY is a food product? 

 

It's funny how chocolate is a visceral thing. I don't like to think chocolate is that big a deal, but honestly,  if i make a chocolate buy, it has got to be a goooooood chocolate. Sure, I'll grab a bag of m&m's now and again, but if i can get that mouthful of full flavor, almost like oil, taste of chocolate, I'm gonna buy a proper piece of chocolate like Zoes. Pay the extra for that tactile extra.  You see it in the cruise lady's face before she gets to dive in.  It's a childlike excitement that moves into an almost sexual sensation.  

Goodness i need some chocolate right now. Dang...

[clod]

that reminds me, I thought the cruise lady laughing at them was a bit insulting.

[hatchetgirl]

6 hours ago, clod said:

that reminds me, I thought the cruise lady laughing at them was a bit insulting.

She was petty condescending. "That would be just 2 ships." Ok queen, so give us numbers!

[ae2]

14 hours ago, hatchetgirl said:

, I'm gonna buy a proper piece of chocolate like Zoes. Pay the extra for that tactile extra.  You see it in the cruise lady's face before she gets to dive in.  It's a childlike excitement that moves into an almost sexual sensation. 

Every year around holiday season (and maybe again before Valentine's?) Woot.com sells a sea salt chocolate caramel that is absolutely to die for. It's worth buying a couple extra boxes to freeze for when the first is empty, which will be sooner than you think. 

[LennieBriscoe]

I've ordered 2 Hazelnut Bars---can't wait!

https://zoeschocolate.com/  (Oh, except I ordered from Amazon. :-) )

As for "Greek" branding: It makes sense for a GREEK RESTAURANT.  A similar emphasis makes not quite as much sense for a chocolate company, regardless of a few specialized flavors! Although, to be fair, they are using "Persephone," "Aegean," and "Mediterranean" in their descriptions. So perhaps they will make their heritage their brand and their niche.

P.S. Blue is used for pasta packaging: Barilla; De Cecco;  Ronzoni; Catelli; Felicia; etc. Hence, Kraft M&C. :-)

Edited July 29, 2017 by LennieBriscoe

[TVbitch]

I don't think Zoe liked Marcus much. She barely looked him in the eye when talking to him and had to laugh and/or cry during several of their interactions. At the store opening, he just HAD to drag her over to the two ladies who were instructed to tell her how much they LOVED THE CHOCOLATE PRETZELS!! Zoe was practically wincing as Marcus pulled her in for a "see how right I was/let's celebrate my rightness" hug. She sucked it up as best she could for the sake of her family and company, but I'm guessing she was glad when he hit the bricks. 

I would have had to stifle laughter at the new branding presentation, too. Marcus going on about how the Flex guys put so much time and hard work into it and what a great job they did was absurd. It was truly like they spent two seconds googling "Greece." And if Marcus was not going to let Zoe stick with their niche menu of flavors, why push the Greek angle anyway. Most people do not associate chocolate with Greece. ...Mmm, these pretzels are covered in Greek chocolate!   

[LennieBriscoe]

UPDATE FROM AMAZON:

"We are writing to let you know that shipment of the following order has not been confirmed by the seller within the expected timeframe.

If you would like to ask Zoe's Chocolate Co. for more information about the status of this order, including the expected ship date, you may contact them directly.

Thanks for shopping on Amazon.com.

Amazon.com Customer Service"

So! Zoe's has not honored/acknowledged the purchase of 2 candy bars I made through their Amazon store. I'll not be contacting them; I don't really even have a sweet tooth, at least, not that much. :-P

Edited August 5, 2017 by LennieBriscoe

[tehach]

Doesn't take a story to sell me chocolate; it takes good chocolate. Seems to me the branding drama was manufactured just as the shipping drama was. Zoe came across like a very nice lady and the show never did get to the reason their sales were falling. Had to laugh that Marcus seemed to think selling chocolate covered pretzels was some sort of hallmark of success.

Oh, the irony in "you're not being open minded" coming from a rich guy who writes a check and crowns himself 100% in charge. Lately it seems like he's the one not being open minded.

The cruise line lady was extraordinarily condescending.

[Thrifty]

People here are critical of Marcus saying that they need a story to sell chocolate, saying that's not necessary.  But it kinda is.  There's nothing special or proprietary about chocolate.  You can buy it at any grocery store, drug store, or convenience mart in the country.  In multiple varieties.  If a small company like Zoe's wants to compete with big shots like Hershey's, Mars, or Nestle.

[Amarsir]

4 hours ago, Thrifty said:

People here are critical of Marcus saying that they need a story to sell chocolate, saying that's not necessary.  But it kinda is.  There's nothing special or proprietary about chocolate.  You can buy it at any grocery store, drug store, or convenience mart in the country.  In multiple varieties.  If a small company like Zoe's wants to compete with big shots like Hershey's, Mars, or Nestle.

I'd agree with that. If nothing else, you need a hook to get the first purchase.

[fib]

On 7/27/2017 at 1:37 PM, seacliffsal said:

The family noted that blue and white are not normally colors associated with chocolate and Marcus responded with he wanted the clear connection to Greece.  However, i would wager that most Americans do not know the colors of the Greek flag and would not make the association with Greece.  

Ugh. Yes. But not every immigrant has wholeheartedly fond memories of their hone country.  Or likes stereotypes.  My family is Irish and my mother is downright insulted every St Paddy's day.  I realize the church image isnt the equivalent of a "Kiss me, Im Irish" shirt, but i do think there is a happy medium between Greek inspired and rootless, whicch neither of them were hitting.  

Pantelis was GORGEOUS.  

Waynesboro is a cute town really close to Gettyburg and definitely on the Civil War trail.  Its a day trip from DC, Baltimore, and Philly. Its not exactly a tourist hotspot, but it does seem like somewhere that could manage a chocolate storefront. 

[hatchetgirl]

I'd agree about not branding as Greek, if they didn't stick so closely to the flavors.

[cooksdelight]

I don't need a story to buy chocolate. I don't need to know where Snickers came from, or why it's called Godiva Chocolates. Quality, price, availability are all the most important to me. Ferraro Rocher... I don't care if it's named after a person or their dog, really doesn't matter when I'm munching on that crunchy little goodness in a gold-wrapped ball.

[seacliffsal]

Some of my favorite (i.e. creamiest) chocolate is from brands such as Milka (German chocolate), RitterSport, etc.  It is true that these companies have to get people to try one in order to build a clientele or business.  However, couldn't that be done with just some subtext under the brand name?  Like 'inspired by the flavors of Greece' or something in italics right under the "Zoe" labeling.  When buying nice chocolate for gifts I prefer attractive packaging (well, unless it's Sees Candies because they are just the best and my friends in California or familiar with the brand know so...).  I don't think I would buy packing with Greek buildings/churches/icons on it unless I bought it IN Greece on a trip.  I have maintained for quite a while now that I don't think Marcus' branding is as creative or fabulous as he does.  However, I also don't have his millions, so there you go.

[Amarsir]

6 hours ago, seacliffsal said:

I have maintained for quite a while now that I don't think Marcus' branding is as creative or fabulous as he does.  However, I also don't have his millions, so there you go.

Well his big hit was opening a camping store and calling it "Camping World". I don't recall any story to it, and the mascot most people have never heard of unless they're regular customers already. So I don't know where he became the brand expert, but then I wouldn't say that to his face either.

[Nancypants]

How fucking smug was that Cruise Lady, laughing at their small shipments? Fat heaux don't need to laugh in any ones face while shoving chocolates in they face.

Edited August 7, 2017 by Nancypants

[Thrifty]

2 hours ago, Amarsir said:

Well his big hit was opening a camping store and calling it "Camping World". I don't recall any story to it, and the mascot most people have never heard of unless they're regular customers already. So I don't know where he became the brand expert, but then I wouldn't say that to his face either.

I don't think Marcus actually started Camping World.  He's just the CEO.