S03.E04: Sweet Sixteen

[Impatient]

yes but you know, after sex happens, it gets less and less important in the relationship.  Especially if they adopt children. Intimacy is more important than the sex and if you can find a way to be sexual for the other person, that seems to settle in to a routine.  Just the emotion of  love bond is what becomes THE most important thing...

What Jazz needs to do is look for a man, cis or trans, who just likes her, and being around her.  I really believe the rest can work itself out....

Not at Jazz's age or stage of development, but sometime in the future...

[KBrownie]

12 minutes ago, Impatient said:

yes but you know, after sex happens, it gets less and less important in the relationship.  Especially if they adopt children. Intimacy is more important than the sex and if you can find a way to be sexual for the other person, that seems to settle in to a routine.  Just the emotion of  love bond is what becomes THE most important thing...

What Jazz needs to do is look for a man, cis or trans, who just likes her, and being around her.  I really believe the rest can work itself out....

Not at Jazz's age or stage of development, but sometime in the future...

Absolutely!

But is she going to be willing to let things develop and see what happens.  No one is going to be seeing her vagina until she's in a relationship anyway, so why not wait until she's have a real, meaningful relationship and then discuss surgery.  Being able to wear leggings might not be so important in the future, so that's not really the best reason to do it now.  And if her eventual partner is trans, she may need to take into account their situation as well when it comes to being intimate, so why not be as sure as possible before undergoing surgery?  ETA: I don't mean that she needs a potential partner's permission or anything, just that if she meets someone who she wants to have sex with, she may decide surgery is no longer what she wants.  And of course, she doesn't HAVE to tell anyone anything she doesn't want them to know.

She knows so, so little what's out there in terms of intimacy and sex with a partner right now.  This shouldn't even be a serious discussion in her life.  Finish high school Jazz.  Form some real connections with people of both genders.  Discover what makes you happy and content.  The rest can wait.  Any therapist would be out of their minds to say she's in any way capable in her current state of handling bottom surgery.

Edited July 15, 2017 by KBrownie

[RemoteControlFreak]

On 7/13/2017 at 11:28 AM, okerry said:

I have to wonder if things like this are an almost subconscious effort to bring out Jazz's normal sex drive - which isn't appearing since it was suppressed with powerful hormone blockers. Sorry, Mom, you can't have it both ways.

Testosterone is suppressed but she's taking added estrogen. Shouldn't that balance out her hormonal state?  I'm not an expert.

Edited July 15, 2017 by RemoteControlFreak

[RemoteControlFreak]

On 7/13/2017 at 1:56 PM, sATL said:

hmmm. most charter schools require one to maintain a decent GPA of some kind to stay there. And a tougher curriculum that the other HS - like more APs/IB etc.  Our charter MS/HS also requires parent involvement and the student must be involved in at least one activity.

Having a tougher curriculum is by no means true of all charter schools.  And it is actually illegal for charter schools to require that students maintain a higher GPA than they would at another public school.  This is the charter school that Jazz goes to: http://www.coralspringscharter.org/  for reference.

[RemoteControlFreak]

8 hours ago, okerry said:

Because sex. That's why. Sex is vitally important to human beings and not just as a frivolous distraction. If we were not highly interested in sex, we would have died out as a species long ago and none of of would be here now.

That's why finding mates is so extremely important to humans. Knowing how and where to find them - and recognize them - is extremely important, again so we don't die out as a species. Not much else matters if we do, lol.

That's why people are so very weirded out by someone who has the secondary characteristics of one sex but the primary characteristics of the other. That is seen as deceptive and may well cause someone to waste valuable reproductive time pursuing a "mate" who already knows they cannot be a mate for this person at all - not for sex (because the pursuer would not be attracted) and not for reproducing (because the one being pursued is not capable of it.)

It's entirely a primal response guided by one of the most powerful drives in nature: The drive to mate and reproduce. Look, I'm just the messenger here. It's not "hate." It's just our primal nature.

Exactly. 

[RemoteControlFreak]

19 hours ago, Granny58 said:

Interesting.  Why is it that more in your age group don't want to drive, compared to my age group (which is ancient).

PBS recently looked into this: Why many teens don’t want to get a driver’s license

[RemoteControlFreak]

16 hours ago, Impatient said:

I started looking into what this colonic vaginoplasty consists of..  

It is NOT a small thing and they really should explain what it entails on this show.

Severe complications only occur in1-5% of the people who have it done, but there are a lot of people traveling to Thailand to have it done (cheaper --- American insurance won't cover it), that might be complicating the picture of the statistical averages.  The woman who is in charge of transgender issues for the ACLU had this procedure done about 7 years ago, and developed severe complications.  Since she published her story on a public website, I imagine it is ok to share it here.  She did not publish it anonymously nd given her professional position, I imagine she would be willing to discuss these issues.  

http://bilerico.lgbtqnation.com/2010/06/sex_reassignment_surgery_when_things_go_wrong.php

I have to wonder if the doctors have filled the Jenningses in on exactly what happens in this surgery and what could happen if a fistula develops.  Even today it is not easy.  And to be clear, it happens in women as a complication of childbirth as well.  So it is not unique to this SRS situation.  But if we are supposed to appreciate the journey Jazz is on, a full picture should be presented.  ESPECIALLY if Jazz and her parents are aware of all of this, and it is one of the reasons Jazz is being so impossible.  



 

The woman writing the article to which you linked did not have a colonic vaginoplastly. She had a traditional vaginoplasty.  Also, she's the "Transgender Advocacy Project Coordinator" for the ACLU of Michigan. She's not in charge of all transgender issues for all o the ACLU.  Read the article again.

Edited July 15, 2017 by RemoteControlFreak

[Nacho]

I noticed at the Birthday party there wasn't a huge hug and kiss greeting between Jazz and her brothers. I bet they are happy as shit to be away from her and her issues. Even when they did the family obstacle course last season, they had to wear rainbow shirts. Cuz even when the family does an activity together, it's all about Jazz. How utterly ridiculous. And I DO think it is wrong to not let Jazz experience normal growth during puberty. Send her to a shrink and shove her on meds if she screams suicide. Sorry, she is a spoiled little bitch. And her parents are reaping what they have sowed. 

[Caracoa1]

Has Jazz ever mentioned what she wants to do with life?  What does she want to study in college? 

[doodlebug]

1 hour ago, RemoteControlFreak said:

The woman writing the article to which you linked did not have a colonic vaginoplastly. She had a traditional vaginoplasty.  Also, she's the "Transgender Advocacy Project Coordinator" for the ACLU of Michigan. She's not in charge of all transgender issues for all o the ACLU.  Read the article again.

I read the article and found it to be an honest take on the subject and felt her advocacy for standardized training for specialists in SRS to be quite valid.

while she didn't have a colonic vaginoplasty, the complications she experienced could certainly happen with that procedure, too.

I would hope that the surgeons and counselors working with Jazz have given her the fullest possible picture of what the procedure entails.

[RemoteControlFreak]

4 minutes ago, doodlebug said:

I read the article and found it to be an honest take on the subject and felt her advocacy for standardized training for specialists in SRS to be quite valid.

while she didn't have a colonic vaginoplasty, the complications she experienced could certainly happen with that procedure, too.

I would hope that the surgeons and counselors working with Jazz have given her the fullest possible picture of what the procedure entails.

This is true. Similar complications could probably occur with a colonic vaginoplasty. 

My point was that the original post mis-stated the type of surgery as well as the author's position and employer.  I think it's important to get the facts right.

[Scarlett45]

@KBrownie I understand what you're saying, and I do agree Jazz should wait for surgery, spend more time researching/maturing and thinking about what SHE wants, but I'm not comfortable with the implication that "no one will be seeing her vulva until she is in a relationship anyway".

Perhaps Jazz wants gender conformation surgery for HERSELF, her own comfort, not about her sexual expression with other people or her ability to have intercourse with a cis-man. I don't think that's what you were getting at (that Jazz's surgery would be about being in a relationship with a cis man), but so often women/girls get these messages that our bodies and our sexuality are for the enjoyment of men, and are there to allow us to bond with men, and that it's never just about us. 

As a cis woman I don't know what Jazz is going through but I care about the state of my Gyn health for myself, irrespective of if I'm in a relationship or not. Many women groom etc for personal reasons not because of what their partner wants (they may not even have a partner), as a woman I still want my gentials the way they are for ME, even if others never see them. For course I'm not saying grooming habits are compatible to major surgery I was just trying to make an analogy.

 

If Jazz wants surgery for HERSELF she should get it when she's ready, it's not about what type of partner she has or doesn't have IMO. From what I learned some trans people have so much bottom dysphoria they aren't even comfortable with partnered sex before surgery. 

Edited July 15, 2017 by Scarlett45
Clarity

[Impatient]

Dear remote control freak,

 

my mistake if she didn't have the colonic vaginoplasty.  I found that article using colonic vaginoplasty as the search term.

 

as to her job description, that came from other interviews with her and her linked in page.  

I agree remote control freak that it's important to get the facts right but it's also important to appreciate the difference between a semantics issue (my description of her job title) and accuracy in facts (surgery complications).  I did make a mistake in assuming she'd had the colonic vaginoplasty based on my search terms, but stand by her job description.  

[winsomeone]

For the first time, I suddenly saw the maleness of Jazz..the way she lumbered when walking at times, her eating, burping etc. Before, she always seemed so feminine. Maybe it is because she is getting older?

[RemoteControlFreak]

18 minutes ago, Impatient said:

Dear remote control freak,

 

my mistake if she didn't have the colonic vaginoplasty.  I found that article using colonic vaginoplasty as the search term.

 

as to her job description, that came from other interviews with her and her linked in page.  

Which Linkedin page?  It's not on this one:  Linkedin: Amy Hunter

And here is her bio on the ACLU of Michigan site.

Also, which other interviews? It's possible that some interview writers also didn't pay attention to original source documents or appropriately fact check.

Sorry to belabor the point, but facts matter. 

Edited July 15, 2017 by RemoteControlFreak

[Impatient]

One thing that was a little scary in that PBS article remotecontrol freak posted about teens not pursuing driver's licenses is that despite a decline in licensed drivers amongst high school seniors by almost 1/4, in the first 15 years or so of this century, and a concommitant decline in teens behind the wheel in fatal car crashes, the numbers have started to increase again.  That is, the number of teens behind the wheel in fatal car crashes is back on the rise again and attributes that to two things: the economy.  But also, once you are 18, you no longer need to do driver's ed and 50 hours of practicing to get a license. 

 

Uh oh.

[Impatient]

Spoiler

Remote control freak.  I can't produce them on demand.  When I read about her and saw her linked in page and FB page, i did a google search on her.  Mainly because i used to live in Zkalamazoo, MI and because i have a friend whose child is going thru SRS now.  So i googled her.  And there are a ton of articles on her, in which she discusses her experience, the long road to recovery, her awareness now that she doesn't think is adequately discussed in the community, her work in the legal world.  I don't know which site exactly i found it in.  I was summarizing the impressive qualifications of this uniquely qualified woman with a wealth of personal experience.

 

however, if you google her and read the many pages of links to articles about her and interviews with her, iam sure you will agree that that one line in my post was not a lie.  Or even an exageration.

 

i agree that facts matter but you are being over-zealous in your approach.  

[RemoteControlFreak]

10 minutes ago, Impatient said:

  Hide contents

Remote control freak.  I can't produce them on demand.  When I read about her and saw her linked in page and FB page, i did a google search on her.  Mainly because i used to live in Zkalamazoo, MI and because i have a friend whose child is going thru SRS now.  So i googled her.  And there are a ton of articles on her, in which she discusses her experience, the long road to recovery, her awareness now that she doesn't think is adequately discussed in the community, her work in the legal world.  I don't know which site exactly i found it in.  I was summarizing the impressive qualifications of this uniquely qualified woman with a wealth of personal experience.

 

however, if you google her and read the many pages of links to articles about her and interviews with her, iam sure you will agree that that one line in my post was not a lie.  Or even an exageration.

 

i agree that facts matter but you are being over-zealous in your approach.  

Actually, it is a complete lie. Someone didn't read or listed to her official bio and her own self-published description clearly and the misinformation spread on the internet.  It's always best to use original sources when determining what the facts are, like her own LInkedin page and the ACLU's actual official website.

Caring about accuracy and differentiating between a fact an an "alternative fact" is not being "over-zealous."  It's believing that in the truth.  You did not carefully read her account of her surgery and spread misinformation that she had a colonic vaginoplasty.  Then you depended on vague third-party sources to infer what her job is with the ACLU.  You even seem to have imagined a Linkedin page that doesn't exist.

Edited July 15, 2017 by RemoteControlFreak

[Impatient]

Remote Control Freak,

 

i disagree with you. 

[RemoteControlFreak]

1 minute ago, Impatient said:

Remote Control Freak,

 

i disagree with you. 

If you want to present links to valid authoritative online content that disputes what I said,  I would welcome it.

In the meantime, here's the person who is actually "in charge of transgender issues for the ACLU," the role you incorrectly assigned to Amy Hunter:  James D. Esseks is Director of the ACLU Lesbian Gay Bisexual Transgender & HIV Project.

[okerry]

3 hours ago, RemoteControlFreak said:

Testosterone is suppressed but she's taking added estrogen. Shouldn't that balance out her hormonal state?  I'm not an expert.

I'm not an expert, either, but I do know that testosterone is primarily responsible for the sex drive in both males and females. Adult biological women have testosterone, too, just not as much as males.

It stands to reason that if you suppress testosterone in order to essentially keep an individual as a physically immature child - and that's what was done to Jazz - and load up on the estrogen, you're going to have someone with a big chest and a pretty low sex drive. Which is how Jazz seems to be responding.

[RemoteControlFreak]

18 minutes ago, okerry said:

I'm not an expert, either, but I do know that testosterone is primarily responsible for the sex drive in both males and females. Adult biological women have testosterone, too, just not as much as males.

It stands to reason that if you suppress testosterone in order to essentially keep an individual as a physically immature child - and that's what was done to Jazz - and load up on the estrogen, you're going to have someone with a big chest and a pretty low sex drive. Which is how Jazz seems to be responding.

Thanks. Biology 101, I guess.

[doodlebug]

42 minutes ago, okerry said:

I'm not an expert, either, but I do know that testosterone is primarily responsible for the sex drive in both males and females. Adult biological women have testosterone, too, just not as much as males.

It stands to reason that if you suppress testosterone in order to essentially keep an individual as a physically immature child - and that's what was done to Jazz - and load up on the estrogen, you're going to have someone with a big chest and a pretty low sex drive. Which is how Jazz seems to be responding.

I think you've summed it up pretty well.  Human beings, both male and female, derive a good bit of their sex drive from testosterone.  Estrogen doesn't seem to have much influence on libido.  Testosterone supplements, in very small amounts (less than what a male would have) can be used to help libido in postmenopausal women while not likely to cause the vocal changes, hair growth and other unpleasant side effects that a higher dose would.  I am sure someone is doing research in the transgender community to see if smaller doses of testosterone could be used in situations like Jazz', where the goal is to increase libido without masculinizing side effects.

[Impatient]

I know Jazz is just being a typical teen.  But she just treats her parents with such disrespect and takes so much for granted.  I am finding that what really distinguished her gender dysphoria from that of other kids is that she is so privileged.  when she says things like "i still want a fourth opinion", I have to say, if that had been me dealing with a rageaholic father who was never eager to spend any money at all, I would say, "would that be ok, dad?  Is that ok? I know it's expensive to travel around and meet with these specialists. But could we talk to another one?"

I also know there is a lot going on we never see.  I am sure Jazz is terrified and can't think of much beyond of what that surgery will mean.  But what is really missing from this show is any demonstration that Jazz thinks of the people she loves in addition to herself.

I can't quite figure out what the producers' goals are in terms of how they are editing this, what their mission might be, but their plan of exposure ---- exposure of the issues involved, exposure of Jazz and her anxieties, exposure of her family members and interactions ---- seems to be pretty simplistic compared to the reactions they are receiving.

[possibilities]

What I understand from testimonials from other trans people (i.e. trans people other than Jazz) is that the dysphoria of having "the wrong genitals" is extremely distressing to live with, and surgical procedures relieve that. I don't think it's about the partner's response to it, necessarily.

RE what was said upthread about the reproductive urge being why trans people are regarded with such negativity, I honestly disagree. If it was all about reproduction, we'd have the same societal response to people who are infertile, and we don't. We regard them with sympathy, consider it a medical condition, and try to help them. There is no bullying, they are not made to feel worthless, there is no discrimination in employment, housing, or other areas of life, they are not subjected to hate crimes, and people generally mind their own business about it.

Also, not every interaction with people is about reproduction. Children, co-workers, random strangers... it's not all about whether you can mate with them or if you might be "wasting your valuable reproductive time". If that was really the issue, people would only be concerned about it when they were considering you for a partner, and it could be easily handled by a calm disclosure, which trans people would be willing and able to do if we have a world where being trans was no more charged and subject to persecution than being cis male or cis female. The fear of being duped (or outed) comes solely from the social stigma and negative reactions and general horror and persecution, not the other way around.

Also, if it was all about reproduction, then people who had either found a reproductive partner, or become unable to reproduce for whatever reason (like age or infertility), or decided they didn't want to reproduce (lots of people are happily childless or parenting by adoption), they would stop caring about it.

Plus, sex and reproduction are not the same thing. There may be some people who only engage in sex for procreation, but they are few. Most people also use it for pleasure, bonding, and other fun things that have nothing to do with reproduction.

I still think that there is a deeper social order taboo being broken here, and that the policing of other people's gender and the social constructs surrounding that, are pretty crazy, and totally unnecessary and quite ridiculous. There are so many more important things to worry about in how people behave or identify as individuals, and so many things more important to a functioning society, that the morbid, frantic, Big Deal concern generated by the general public about this particular detail of other people's bodies, personalities, and personal lives (including people one doesn't even know!) still strikes me as utterly bizarre, dysfunctional, and insane.

We could be getting along much better if we dropped these reactions, and just focused on how well people do their jobs, whether they are good neighbors, and if they are decent human beings.

Edited July 16, 2017 by possibilities

[possibilities]

On 7/15/2017 at 0:03 AM, KBrownie said:

And this stuff obviously matters plenty to Jazz, otherwise she wouldn't spend so much time on it.

Just wanted to say that I don't have as much of a problem with it mattering to someone about their own gender presentation. It's the fact that other people get so concerned with what someone else is doing that I find bizarre.

[KBrownie]

1 hour ago, possibilities said:

Just wanted to say that I don't have as much of a problem with it mattering to someone about their own gender presentation. It's the fact that other people get so concerned with what someone else is doing that I find bizarre.

Then they should take her off TV.  

I don't think it's fair to use words such as "bizarre, dysfunctional, and insane" to describe commenting on something being produced for the consumption of the public.  Isn't that the entire point? To talk about it so it gets ratings and gets renewed so Jazz and company can reap the benefits, monetary and otherwise, of having a TV show?  They must be okay since they keep coming back for more.  Is the expectation just to sit passively and take it all in and not question anything? Mere discussion of the various topics that again, are deliberately put out there for public consumption, isn't being any more overly concerned with anything regarding this show than anything else.  It's been a simple discussion on what's being put out there by Jazz and her family.  There's really no need to label discussion about this particular show as "insane" and "bizarre."  They're the ones inviting people to comment and discuss their lives by putting it on TV.  I'm not going to be shamed because the discussion isn't all praise and admiration for Jazz or anything else regarding this show.

 

Quote

Perhaps Jazz wants gender conformation surgery for HERSELF, her own comfort, not about her sexual expression with other people or her ability to have intercourse with a cis-man. I don't think that's what you were getting at (that Jazz's surgery would be about being in a relationship with a cis man), but so often women/girls get these messages that our bodies and our sexuality are for the enjoyment of men, and are there to allow us to bond with men, and that it's never just about us. 

As a cis woman I don't know what Jazz is going through but I care about the state of my Gyn health for myself, irrespective of if I'm in a relationship or not. Many women groom etc for personal reasons not because of what their partner wants (they may not even have a partner), as a woman I still want my gentials the way they are for ME, even if others never see them. For course I'm not saying grooming habits are compatible to major surgery I was just trying to make an analogy.

I agree that she should get the surgery only if that is what SHE wants.  I should have mentioned it in the original post, but no, I never meant to imply that her body is only important in terms of the enjoyment of someone else.  If it's going to make her feel better about herself, fine.  But so far, most of her reasoning for surgery has been fairly superficial and based on how other people perceive her.  She hasn't shown that level of maturity that you describe.  It would be great if she got to that point, and maybe she will.  She's certainly not there from what's being shown at this point though.  She needs to discover and be comfortable with who she really is before going through with the surgery.  That really was my only point.  That she hasn't yet reached the point where she can clearly and confidently be comfortable with herself as a person.  Not at all unusual for a  lot of teenage girls.

Edited July 16, 2017 by KBrownie

[Impatient]

I don't know, @possibilities.  I think part of it represents resentment at some level of dishonesty.  I think most people get that transgender people feel their outer presentations to the world do not reflect their true selves and try to rectify that in as genuine a way as they can, but that solution in and of itself feels like a fraud is being perpetrated, feels that way to those who do NOT understand the feelings of frustration at being something other than one appears to be.  If this concept that one's flawlessly feminine (or masculine) appearance does not truly represent one's biological gender or one's reproductive ability in the most general terms, then what does that say about those of us who are biologically as we appear to be?  I think that the transgender community goes to such lengths to cultivate an outward appearance (that in their minds reflects their truths), that it smacks of desperation to the population they are copying, and in some cases, even satirizing (e.g., drag queens).  (And don't get me wrong, I think that satire is awesome!!!.  We don't see the opposite very often because men don't do so much fake stuff to fit a beauty standard).

It's the emphasis on appearance, i think, that so disturbs people.  Drag queens and Hollywood aside, most of the world lives with the body they were born with.  But if one appears to be "A" but is in some fundamental way (biologically, genetically, reproductively) "B", then the fear and self-critiquing that is inspired by the elite "A"s and "B"s becomes exagerated.  Tremendously.  Because now it's not just a matter of "hollywood can make pretty girls flawless in their beauty, so I have to be that beautiful too!".  

 

Worse, aside from the trans community at large, we have Jazz, affluent, privileged Jazz whose family can afford flawless creation of "B", and there is of course resentment.  On a class level (who among us could afford all of that), on a child protection level (how dare they decide this for a 3 year old?), on a financial level (we'll go see all the best doctors and damn the cost!) and in a weird way on a celebrity level (are we supposed to admire Jazz as a standard of feminine or even trans-feminine beauty?).  

 

So this:  "I think that there is a deeper social order taboo being broken here, and that the policing of other people's gender and the social constructs surrounding that, are pretty crazy, and totally unnecessary and quite ridiculous. There are so many more important things to worry about in how people behave or identify as individuals, and so many things more important to a functioning society, that the morbid, frantic, Big Deal concern generated by the general public about this particular detail of other people's bodies, personalities, and personal lives (including people one doesn't even know!) still strikes me as utterly bizarre, dysfunctional, and insane."

This kind of dismisses people who are putting effort into building genuine relationships and families and lives, and start that at puberty by trying to attract attention from potential partners.  Of COURSE Jazz wants those things too, but she enters into any such relationship with a full and complete understanding of the issues involved.  I think people are more than a little squeamish at the idea that they might be seduced into a relationship that they have no real understanding of and that could risk real emotional trauma.

 

Finally, there is something disingenuous about Jazz wanting a cis boyfriend.  As though she is saying, "i pass so perfectly, i demand the same in a partner."  Irregardless of what this says about her views of "A" or "B" in males, it is elitist.  It is dismissive and even cruel.  Shane's date with Jazz was painful to watch, and while she may only have been acting in an honest teen-aged way, it highlights the problems associated with something i can't help but think of as an experiment.   I understand your views @possibilities, but i understand the other side of the debate too.

[okerry]

14 hours ago, possibilities said:

RE what was said upthread about the reproductive urge being why trans people are regarded with such negativity, I honestly disagree. If it was all about reproduction, we'd have the same societal response to people who are infertile, and we don't.

You are right: We don't look at infertile people that way, because, as you also mentioned, reproduction is not the only reason for sex. An infertile person can still be a wholly satisfactory sex partner, whether long-term or short-term.

Again: People are upset by an individual who presents as being of one sex when they actually are not. It is deceptive, whether one thinks it should be or not - but how could it not be? That's kind of the whole idea!

This is why "disclose before dating" is vitally important, not only to protect the trans person but out of basic human respect for the one they're dating. 

Anyone see the movie To Wong Foo, Thanks for Everything, Love, Julie Newmar? This very subject was brought up and I'm always reminded of Vida Boheme's (Patrick Sawyze) speech about "human rules." 

14 hours ago, possibilities said:

There are so many more important things to worry about in how people behave or identify as individuals, and so many things more important to a functioning society, that the morbid, frantic, Big Deal concern generated by the general public about this particular detail of other people's bodies, personalities, and personal lives (including people one doesn't even know!) still strikes me as utterly bizarre, dysfunctional, and insane.

We could be getting along much better if we dropped these reactions, and just focused on how well people do their jobs, whether they are good neighbors, and if they are decent human beings.

I'm afraid that human sexuality is not going to go away, no matter how much people would like to pretend it doesn't exist so they don't have to deal with it. Part of life as an adult IS learning how to deal with it.

ETA: I don't want to appear entirely unsympathetic, though. Over the last decade or so - maybe longer - the normal boundaries that have been in place for generations are being torn down and that has caused tremendous social problems IMHO.

Hookup culture is seen as the normal and healthy way to get sex. Very often it's with strangers (boundaries shot) or if not, it's with friends (normal boundaries torn down.)

Men and women live on the same dormitory floors at college. Anyone who objects to this is a prude, or trying to oppress others, or somesuch.

These are only a couple of examples. There are many more that make it quite understandable as to why someone would want it all to go away, as the poster above is essentially saying.

Allowing individuals who are physically of the opposite sex into the privacy of restrooms is, again, a loss of normal boundaries for many, many people. But they'll be subjected to a barrage of ridicule and name-calling if they dare object.

I submit that this is not about "hate." This is about boundaries - boundaries that are being torn down from every side to the detriment of all and the understanding of none.

Edited July 16, 2017 by okerry

[possibilities]

14 hours ago, KBrownie said:

I don't think it's fair to use words such as "bizarre, dysfunctional, and insane" to describe commenting on something being produced for the consumption of the public.

I wasn't referring to people commenting on the show or taking an interest in the show. I was commenting on the society-wide phenomenon that makes a show like this necessary in the first place, i.e. the general way trans people are treated and thought of, the entire edifice of gender politics and policing, and how that plays out in life, and how that seems very strange to me, not how people react to the show itself. I do think our entire gender obsessed social system is bizarre, dysfunctional and insane. How that plays out for individuals is what the show is about, and I think it's what makes the show itself interesting in the first place. I am as entitled to think that as others are to think what they think, and to say why they think it. Some people may think my ideas are dangerous and terrible, and that without strict gender rules the moral order would fall apart and society would devolve into an uncivilized chaos. I don't know whether or not anyone here thinks that or not, but there are definitely a lot of people who do think that, which is why we have hate crimes, legally allowed discrimination, and a vigorous debate. My right to my opinion is in no way a threat to anyone else expressing theirs, and I wish people would stop telling me to shut up.

6 hours ago, Impatient said:

there is something disingenuous about Jazz wanting a cis boyfriend.

When did she say that? I thought she said she didn't know what she wanted and was going to just wait and see who she fell in love with.

Edited July 16, 2017 by possibilities

[okerry]

4 minutes ago, possibilities said:

do think our entire gender obsessed social system is bizarre, dysfunctional and insane

Then, in all seriousness, why do you feel people are so "obsessed" with gender? What benefit are they getting from living this way? There must be one somewhere, or it wouldn't be so prevalent.  

I already gave my explanation for this, in the "because sex" post above. Will you share yours? (I don't think this is off topic because it's really the heart of what the show is about, IMHO.)

[possibilities]

I don't know why! That was my original statement, that I really wish I knew, because I honestly don't get it.

RE disclosure as a necessity in order to prevent people from wasted time flirting or otherwise engaging with someone they wouldn't be compatible with for non-reproductive sex, I'm not even taking a position on that specifically, but I do think there are lots and lots of interactions where people are not trying to or interested in having sex with someone, and yet they still care about whether they are cis or trans or male or female, and that strikes me as odd. And also, when it comes to sexual compatibility, there are loads of things that might make people compatible or not, but which we do not hang so many of our cultural marbles on when people are just walking around and going about their lives. I mean, sure, all that stuff needs to be figured out if you're getting in bed with someone, but most people don't walk around disclosing it at hello, nor expect others to do so until the situation seems like it's a happening thing.

There's definitely privilege in Jazz's family having money for "the best doctors" but that's true of a lot of people who have better access to all kinds of things, medical and otherwise, and we don't begrudge everyone their facelift or their fertility treatments or their mansion or their fabulous vacation and their fancy car and expensive education, just because we don't all have those things.

Again, I'm not saying people have to like Jazz, and I think her relative privilege in some areas is important to point out because it's true that not everyone, trans or otherwise, has access to things she has. But I don't think it explains the society-wide freak out over these issues, because it's not a consistent critique across types of privilege, and because often when we see privileged people have stuff we think everyone should have it, not no one. If it was cancer treatment, we'd want her to have it, and be angry if someone else didn't get it. We also expect cis men to get viagra, and other "frivolous" things that improve quality of life. (I'm not saying men shouldn't get viagra, please don't misunderstand my intention here!)

Maybe the show needs to do a better job of showing what the dysphoria feels like, so it doesn't seem like just a whimsical frivolity. My view is, if you're going to build a vagina, you might as well build the best one you can. Women get breast implants all the time, and if it's after a cancer diagnosis, it's usually considered standard and there's some leeway into what kind of breasts you get to choose. Again, we're sympathetic to cancer patients, in a way we aren't to trans people. If we had no problems with trans people, and took what they say about their life experience seriously, we would consider their surgeries to be mental health necessities, like we do for people who are in accidents and have scars, or who have breast cancer and want implants.

Full disclosure: I have a from-birth physical condition that looks weird and was advised to do something about it, but I chose not to, because that's not important to me. So if we as a society decided all cosmetic surgery was laughably stupid and no one wanted it because we didn't care about that stuff, I would shrug and keep living my life. My opinion is not based on me personally caring about it, my only "I think this is interesting and notable" response is about how we collectively have designated some things important and others not. You can dye your hair, and that's not a lie. You can't wear a dress if you have a penis. To some people, this makes sense. To me, it doesn't.

I think I'm going to stop talking about this because it's getting past being show-specific and more into "wider concepts the show makes me think about" and maybe that's not what this forum is for. But it's why I watch the show, so that's why I brought it up.

Edited July 16, 2017 by possibilities

[ClareWalks]

55 minutes ago, possibilities said:

When did she say that? I thought she said she didn't know what she wanted and was going to just wait and see who she fell in love with.

Yeah, she never said she wanted a cis boyfriend, she said she is pansexual (open to men and women, or genderqueer, trans and cis).

[Impatient]

No she DID say she wanted to date cis boys but she would not rule out dating a trans boy.  So when her friend suggested Shane she agreed.  The topic of being attracted to boys and girls has come up more recently as a totally separate issue.  (She said on a separate occasion that she had kissed a girl once but it was just to practice kissing.) That is when she says she is a pan-sexual.  But she used to talk a lot about cis boys being afraid of her and that she had crushes on several, but they treated her as though they didn''t know she was alive.  That was discussed in magazine articles and in other interviews.    And I think it was that discussion in the series was in the same episode that her grandfather said, "Boys Jazz's age are always going to think of her as a boy because of what she has between her legs.  That is just the way it is."  

I think that must have been maybe season 1?  Could have been season 2.  

Jazz has considered a lot of different issues, including how she would approach the possibilities of motherhood.  Which makes me think that she and her parents and the doctors have probably discussed all of these details that may be a bit too much for the viewing audience to handle.  (Stuff like details of the surgery, and reproduction and other very controversial issues).

 

Let me just add that Jazz herself has often emphasized the difference between gender and sexual preference.  So possibly being pansexual ---liking boy s AND girls-- really has nothing to do with what she finds attractive in terms of specific boys or girls.  I think when we see the next episode (the dating in the dark episode), that will be further elucidated.  

[orangeiguana]

Good God, what absolutely appalling table manners. That's gonna take Jazz far in life...not. Yuck.

[Impatient]

Just one other thing.  The issue of bigger breasts, or replacement breasts after loss to cancer.  And the same technology exists for replacing missing testicles for men, even though I can't imagine anything less interesting to a woman than whether or not a full complement of testicles is present when a couple is making love.  But it does matter to a man, I guess.  And I don't remember who said this, but insurance companies recognize the issue of sexual performance being sufficiently important to pay for viagra.  So why are we squeamish about sexual reassignment?  And maybe the issue is the idea of creating de novo, i.e., from scratch, as opposed to enhancing or repairing what was injured or missing.  And of course, if you carry that argument (missing or injured) to its obvious conclusion you could make the argument that transgender individuals are the ultimate patients in need of repair of what is missing.  

Maybe in a generation this will all be resolved.  Marilyn Monroe had plastic surgery and it was a top secret because back then, it seemed rare beauty is what was celebrated.  If it were revealed that Marilyn Monroe had her nose fixed and a chin implant, she would have been a lesser goddess.  Now? It is more or less the surgeon's skill that determines rare beauty.  So maybe what you are born with in terms of reproductive organs and hormones won't matter in a generation, after we, as a culture, get used to the idea of that being surgically alterable as well.  

In a way that will be nice because of course it will mean we are drawn to people we find affinity with, and special closeness.  Emotional intimacy.  But in the same way that I just will never appreciate an inflated  Kardashian, maybe I will always find the natural differences between men and women sweet and kind of moving, really.   We better get our poets to write the last of the old-fashioned lyric celebrating maleness and femaleness now, because those lines are about to blur, I suspect forever.  

All of that being said, I still think it would be best to not do hormone blockers and synthetic hormones till patients are of legal age.  I just do not think a 3 year old ought to be expressing a preference (even vehemently) that the rest of his or her life is determined by.  

 

[PrincessPurrsALot]

Folks,

We've allowed some leeway for a more general discussion of issues regarding acceptance of transgender persons in the US.  It's time to get back on track.  If you have something to say that is not directly related to the show, let's keep it out of the episode threads.  Please remember this is a TV forum.

@17wheatthins and I are the new Mods for the I Am Jazz forum.  If you have a question regarding Mod actions, please reach out to us via PM.  If you are questioning why a post may have been hidden, ask us directly.  Debating Mod actions in the threads is not allowed.

Of course, if you have something to say that is directly related to the show, post away! 

Princess PurrsALot

[Bellalisa]

She is so naive. She says "I really thought the colon vaginoplasty would create a really ugly vagina"- the colon part is going to be internal not on the outside. She thinks they are making the labia out of the colon? I have not looked it up or researched it but from watching the show my understanding is that the colon is used for the vaginal canal, which is inside and you can't see it.  Her comment reveals she has no clue.

And I wish we had more information on how the second doctor feels she can do a traditional vaginoplasty but in two parts. Maybe she has come up with an innovative method that the third doctor is not aware of. He said it sounds impossible. Jazz was not sure how she was going to do it either, nor were the parents to pipe in. So basically they like the idea of the traditional vaginoplasty but have no idea what the actual process is going to be on Jazz to achieve that. Jazz said something like "I don't know how she will do it maybe use some of the scrotal skin?" to which this doctor shook his head.  Where is doctor number 2 getting the 2-3 inches to create the vaginal canal? Inquiring minds want to know.

 

Her mom was annoying though in the car. She just was beating a dead horse about the therapy. It would have been better to say once: you have issues, you are going to go to therapy, if not, no surgery. End of discussion. But going on and on and on was so annoying. 

[momofsquid]

On 7/14/2017 at 1:38 PM, Heartismyarmor said:

 

For my friends and I, it's an anxiety thing you know? Driving can put you under a lot of pressure if you've rarely done it. I try to explain it to my family as "You make a mistake and it can be deadly, that's a lot to handle" so I can understand if that's where Jazz comes from. But I also live in a city where it's more expected for teenagers to take public transportation than drive so it was never a huge issue anyway.

Thank you, I was wondering why no one else had brought these points up. My firstborn can drive, my 19-year-old is not interested, in part I think because of her anxiety issues. She lives, works and goes to school in another city so she has a bicycle and a bus pass. She gets around just fine. Jazz needs to figure out public transportation. I can drive but my mother and sister never learned. I don't find it that odd.

[ClareWalks]

The driving thing is interesting to me still. I grew up in the middle of the woods, 10 miles from the nearest town, so every kid (even the broke ones) had a car (even held together with duct tape) right when they turned 16, out of sheer necessity. There really weren't any kids who were too anxious to drive up there, but then again when all the roads are sparsely-populated two-lane byways there isn't much to be nervous/anxious about. If I'd learned to drive in a major city, screw it, I'm taking the bus. Easier, cheaper, and probably faster (plus you don't have to park it).

[bichonblitz]

On 7/14/2017 at 0:24 PM, Mrs. Hanson said:

Regarding #1:  I felt bad when the mom did something with the two older kids and the mom would not shut about Jazz!!!  It was like, "Can we talk about us for maybe a minute?"  

I remember that episode. The twins said everything is all about Jazz, all of the time. It was sad. Jeanette felt bad but she didn't stop.  

On 7/14/2017 at 9:51 AM, Impatient said:

Jazz is getting to be insufferable and maybe that is because of the show.

 

What an entitled brat. What has happened to her? She was adorable, sweet, funny, smart the first season. Total 180. And what parents let their kid sit at the table and don't correct their manners? 

[Impatient]

She was TRYING to get a reaction.  She WANTED to shock them.  Maybe this is an on-going inside joke?  Gross, in any case.....

[Bellalisa]

As for the drag show, 2 or 3 years ago, Jazz was the special guest on a show on an awards show on Logo network that featured all the drag queens from Ru Paul's drag race. She was shown interacting with all of them and hanging out with all of them.  They all are big fans of Jazz. She knows these drag queens and I'm sure she watches Ru Paul's drag race and is a big fan of drag. It is something she enjoys and this is why they took her. It was not like the parents just came up with this idea on her own and it was all too much for a 16 year old. She's been there already and done that. Maybe for other 16 year olds but drag queens are a big part of her fan club. I believe she also marched in a parade in NYC with drag queens.

Edited July 18, 2017 by Bellalisa

[gingerella]

I too am appalled at Jazz's behavior, but I assume it's just her being a teenager. But I'm also sure that her mother's coddling of her has exacerbated the situation to where she walks around with this waft of entitlement following her around. I also wonder what it's like to be her friend. She has that one friend, long hair, forget her name, and then her friend Noelle. I have to think that Jazz is just becoming a monster brat because when you look at Nicole, she is so poised, lovely manners, open minded and accepting in that yes, she will turn some heads and some folks will stare and others will make comments but she realizes that most dont mean to be rude and many just have never had the opportunity to think about, let alone discuss transgender issues until they meet her. So in my book, Noelle is the real star of this show now. She is a role model for all young people, not just transgender youth. Jazz? Yeah, not so much. She is boorish, rude, obnoxious, has atrocious manners, and suffers from a LOT of emotional/social issues. Of course we can be empathetic and say, wow, I cant even imagine what it's like to be born into the wrong body, let alone deal with all the societal issues that come with that situation. I dont know what that's like. I know what it's like to be part of a much-hated minority group so I know that part. But I think coping with being transgender, a kid, and all that societal crap is probably way more than I could ever wrap my head around. But I want to learn, I want to know, I hope it will make me a better person in the end. So for me, Jazz has jumped the shark on her own show, I would much rather see Noelle traverse life, because she is willing to help others learn about what it means, what it feels like to be a transgender young person in this country.

As for the rest of Jazz's siblings, I feel sorry for them having to life under that shadow for their entire lives thus far, and know their mother is always caring more about one sibling than the others. At least their Dad seems fairly balanced in that regard. I wonder why he doesn't come down harder on Jeanette about mollycoddling Jazz. I mean shit people, send her away from the table when she's burping and farting like a fucking 2 year old who just realized that he can burp and fart. Dont coddle her when she comes home from a date and admits she treated her date like shit. Tell her to buck the fuck up and call him and apologize. She goes through life - at least from what we see on this show - leaving a little wake of rudeness and selfishness and never has to apologize for any of it. Why? Because she's transgendered? That's not going to help her be a productive adult member of society, but YMMV.

Lastly, I cant even with how she spoke to her grandfather. That was off the charts BEYOND rude. If that was my kid I would have had a hard time not slapping her right there in public. She makes so many assumptions before people have even finished a sentence - yet she DEMANDS 110% that you speak of her issues in the exact way she wants you to. You are not allowed to synthesize her journey into your own words so that maybe, just maybe, you can help others to better understand. It boggles the mind that her mother condones this shitty  behavior.

Edited July 18, 2017 by gingerella
Because Nicole and Noelle are not the same person...!

[Bellalisa]

Gingerella I enjoyed your post and you make very good points.

 

Since you say you want to learn, the preferred word to use as adjective and noun and verb is Transgender not Transgendered. Basically never say Transgendered in any part of speech.

[ClareWalks]

@gingerella It's Noelle, not Nicole, just an FYI because I too have gotten names confused on shows in the past and it never helps my Googling ;)

[Impatient]

Is transgendered considered  pejorative Bellalisa?  I have never used the term, but might have without knowing it was an insult of some kind.  

The Transgender community is the most empfindlich community I have encountered I think.  Empfindlich is a German word that has no direct English translation but means, "Easily injured, susceptible to harm, fragile.  Easily infected.  Quick to take sick."  It means fragille in a more profound fundamental way.

Taking offense at the tense of a word seems  bit over the top.  but you know, I am not walking in those shoes, so what do I know?
 

[gingerella]

50 minutes ago, Bellalisa said:

Gingerella I enjoyed your post and you make very good points.

Since you say you want to learn, the preferred word to use as adjective and noun and verb is Transgender not Transgendered. Basically never say Transgendered in any part of speech.

Ha, I thought it was the other way around! Shows you what I know, right?! Honestly, and I mean no disrespect, I find it difficult to keep up with all the terminology as it seems to change rapidly and if you're not living daily with the terminology it's easy to have it pass you by and not realize it's changed. I remember when the Q was added and I had no idea. The first time I was corrected I had no idea what the person I was speaking with was talking about.  So I do also see Impatient's point, it is a very label conscious sub-group if you will. Again, the labels seem to shift rapidly so it's difficult to keep up. Anyway, I changed the language in my post so others will know as well, thank you for the gentle heads up Bellalisa!

[Bastet]

The pinned post on language includes a link to the transgender section of the GLAAD Media Reference Guide, which is what the site follows.  Lots of good info there (much of it is in the pinned post itself, but there's some extra information at the link).

[Impatient]

I have studied the language thing about acceptable GLAAD usage that the mods here request we study and adhere to.  It was put together by the NY Times and the AP.  I read it very very carefully and even within the guidelines there is indication of how tricky the language minefield is.  For example, trangender means identifying with the gender opposite that assigned at birth but without actually having had surgery and transexual is also identifying with the gender opposite that assigned at birth,  but WITH surgical modification.  Now that is such a personal question that I cannot even imagine asking at this point, "Excuse me do you mind telling me if you prefer transexual or transgender?" now knowing the full implications of that question! 

Also, the Q in LGBTQIA+ used to mean queer (and still does)  but in the past queer was  pejorative and terribly hurtful. Presently,  queer means unsure or questioning (Really as Jazz is now) and is no longer hurtful.  So it can be very difficult to keep up unless you yourself are an active member of the community.  

 

I think though that if it is clear you are not meaning disrespect, people won't take offense.

 

Edited July 18, 2017 by Impatient
clarifying typos