S07.E01: Dragonstone

[Alapaki]

6 minutes ago, stillshimpy said:

So, I found there was kind of a good attempt at narrative balance and that the story did go out of its way to rather swiftly have her wondering who she had murdered who might just have been there, fighting another man's war.

I think that's an interesting perspective.  But I think it may give the show too much credit.  As I saw it (and I pretty much support Arya's actions), the show attempted to "cover" themselves by having Walder conspicuously say (or at least suggest) that these were all Freys (thus not sellswords or other families' soldiers there by obligation) and that they all participated in the Red Wedding.  Their cheers were used to demonstrate assent.

Now, I recognize that there can still be moral nuance there, and that surely not all of them actively supported what happened and at least a few disapproved but went along out of fear.

But I don't think the show was going for moral complexity there.  Just my take.  

[dragonsbite]

Apologies for pointing this out if someone's already said it (and I haven't read all the posts yet)

 

The seeming endless scenes of Samwell almost retching in his extremely awful duties implied a lot of time passed while he tried to find answers for Jon. That passage of time isn't reflected in what's happening in the North. BUT it does account for the activities in the South and on the water. How would Cersei find out so quickly about the death of the Freys and Dany's near arrival at Dragonstone. How could a ship with that kind of news get to King's Landing ahead of Dany's? And how did Dany's fleet arrive so quickly?

[Tikichick]

1 minute ago, Alapaki said:

I think that's an interesting perspective.  But I think it may give the show too much credit.  As I saw it (and I pretty much support Arya's actions), the show attempted to "cover" themselves by having Walder conspicuously say (or at least suggest) that these were all Freys (thus not sellswords or other families' soldiers there by obligation) and that they all participated in the Red Wedding.  Their cheers were used to demonstrate assent.

Now, I recognize that there can still be moral nuance there, and that surely not all of them actively supported what happened and at least a few disapproved but went along out of fear.

But I don't think the show was going for moral complexity there.  Just my take.  

Perhaps the full-court press to series end factors in to this.  No doubt there's lots of nuances and flourishes of details fans would love to wring out of every scene, but I don't think given time and budget constraints we're going to get that Christmas Wish List fulfilled.

[Alapaki]

I've been ruminating on The Hound scenes.  I know I'm reading a lot into the scenes, but I think the scenes do raise some interesting questions, which is a credit to the writing I suppose.

Did Beric know about the Hound's history with that homestead? (It didn't seem to dawn on Thoros until he saw the Hound burying the bodies).  Why did Beric ask the Hound to opine on how they died, and why did he specifically tell the Hound that they probably starved to death?

If Beric knew, why did they choose that homestead?  Sure, maybe it's the only one around or maybe it's just convenient at the time.  But did Beric think that confronting that part of his past would effect something in Sandor?  

Could (or had) Thoros and Beric see the same thing Sandor saw in the fire, or was that vision new information to them? (specifically the location of the white walkers?).

If it was new information, does that say something about the Lord of Light revealing things to a "sinner" (albeit on in the process of repenting) that was hidden from the Priest and "Saint"?

Overall I thought those were powerful scenes, but I almost wish I'd "seen" them play out on the page first. 

[GrailKing]

12 hours ago, Nanrad said:

But, Jon doesn't have that assumption that she's going to go against him in meetings. Furthermore, he doesn't want ANYONE to go against him in meetings. This is totally on her.

This is why she reminded him on that is what Joffery did, he was autocratic in Winterfell , if he keeps going this way and he'll come out on the short end he needs to open up to his close circle, he didn't do it at the wall except Sam, and he sent him away, did the same with other people who believes in him, thus leaving him open to assassination, fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me; should be his motto.

She's trying to protect his ass, they can argue ( privately is best ) but neither can be dismissive of the other's input .

They both have valid points, both of them

[Tikichick]

1 minute ago, Alapaki said:

I've been ruminating on The Hound scenes.  I know I'm reading a lot into the scenes, but I think the scenes do raise some interesting questions, which is a credit to the writing I suppose.

Did Beric know about the Hound's history with that homestead? (It didn't seem to dawn on Thoros until he saw the Hound burying the bodies).  Why did Beric ask the Hound to opine on how they died, and why did he specifically tell the Hound that they probably starved to death?

If Beric knew, why did they choose that homestead?  Sure, maybe it's the only one around or maybe it's just convenient at the time.  But did Beric think that confronting that part of his past would effect something in Sandor?  

Could (or had) Thoros and Beric see the same thing Sandor saw in the fire, or was that vision new information to them? (specifically the location of the white walkers?).

If it was new information, does that say something about the Lord of Light revealing things to a "sinner" (albeit on in the process of repenting) that was hidden from the Priest and "Saint"?

Overall I thought those were powerful scenes, but I almost wish I'd "seen" them play out on the page first. 

I've had that same wish about every scene since we eclipsed the books -- most often the dialogue is the first problem that reminds me of that situation.

I think the starvation comment was his genuine suspicion given the visual clues he had. 

I think Sandor's near death, rebirth and "redemption" has made him open to seeing into the flames, quite possibly aided by his significant history with fire.

I've mentioned it twice now in the thread, but apparently I'm the only one who sees any significance to THAT SPECIFIC SWORD being thrust into the earth where the bodies of two innocent victims are being buried.  Will Sandor's remorse and attempt to make some type of amends trigger any response from the Lord of Light?

[stillshimpy]

In an almost completely unrelated vein:  Jeez, at least none of the Finally Freed from Endless Tedium in Mereen actors had to get eye strain learning their lines for the premiere.   You have to know that about half of those players got scripts with zero dialogue and like, five call sheets, spent some time thinking "Yeah, this isn't a good sign.  I'm totally going to die, aren't I...and it's apparently going to be a really long, silent death?!?" 

[FnkyChkn34]

10 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

Westeros simply does not have a judicial system that pursues traditional justice as we know it. The only justice that you get is what you have the power to get for yourself. This is also a situation where there is no clear distinction between justice and revenge as we define them. 

I don't agree that Arya killing the Freys makes her no better than them. No doubt she is a mass killer who got her revenge. However, she used her power to punish a powerful family that has betrayed and murdered countless others. She doesn't go around betraying and murdering people en masse to gain power or wealth. This is a show where often the crimes of the victims define them.

In the beginning of the series, there was a justice system.  Albeit primitive, it was there.  Ned Stark had the authority in the North, and he did so with the Night's Watch when he punished the deserter.  The status of any laws is up in the air now that the country is at war, but they at least used to exist.  Arya has no power; she's not a queen or ruler.  Her power only stems from the fact that she can put on other people's faces and therefore hide and trick them.  That's not "power" at least in the sense that I was ever referring to; she has no legal authority.

IMO, Arya is a hypocrite.  She has this list of people she wants revenge on because they murdered someone in her family.  But now she's a murderer.  So she's just like the people she hates.  Um... ok.  Just not a favorite character of mine for many reasons - her vigilante justice is only one.

[benteen]

I'm curious what the situation in the Riverlands is now.  Is Edmure free to do what he pleases now?

[stillshimpy]

I liked the scene with the Hound and company which is not something I thought I would ever say, as I've never been a big Hound fan.  I thought it actually did a better job than the book of showing what could account for any kind of epiphany on the Hound's part.  In the books, he's just kind of there, being a giant monk after being presumed dead (by me) for a long time.  

 

One area where the series condensed some source material in a way that carried weight, again with me, because staring into flames even after that log sparked actually made me at least glance at the bench on the side of the Hound's team if I'm far from parking on it.  

 

I think there's always room for subtext, even though the show can be a bit of a blunt instrument.  To my mind, neither Jon or Sansa was completely in the right or completely in the wrong.  If Jon is going to respect that Sansa has a right to have a voice in all of this, if for no other reason that she is technically the reason that he lived to get there (which he acknowledged) then he has to give her that opportunity.  If he doesn't, again for good reasons I think, want her speaking up in front of rooms full of people then maybe talk to her before making a final decision.  Jon was not under tremendous pressure to make that call right then and there.   

 

I liked that Sansa's advice was at least a little bit right and a little bit fucked-up-and-showing-her-own-trauma.   The answer to defeating their enemies will never be to become like them, it will be to understand and outwit them while retaining who they are as a family, otherwise, they lose to the Lannisters either way.  

My favorite saying is that more than one thing can be true, at once.   Jon was both right and wrong.  Sansa was both right and wrong, I thought.  The way she called him out and then doggedly pursued it instead of saying, "May we speak about the matter before you decide?"  was ...Jon is right, she can't do that if he's the King.   

On the other hand, he's putting the betrayal of the Umbers and the Karstarks solidly at the feet of the two men who have already died, whereas Sansa gets to remember the people who didn't help her when she was Ramsay's prisoner, being violated and we get to remember the role of the same families in the death of Rickon in the show's environment.  

The betrayal went deeper and cost the Starks more than one heir than Jon knows, but we were there to see who delivered Rickon to fucking Ramsay Bolton so he could be hunted to actual death in front of his family because they were going to the Umbers.   Sure, those kids are innocent, but send a loyal envoy to oversee their keeps until such time as they reach the age of majority, to make sure they have help in guiding their men at their disposal.  

So I was a little bit "Fuck no, the Umbers do not get to keep their hold..." and for once I'm not just having a meltdown about how a direwolf died.  Osha and Rickon were on my mind.  Rickon chiefly.   Does Jon even know that?  Maybe talk to a few people who aren't named Sansa in addition to considering her advice.  You're new to this, Risen Dead Jon. 

Edited July 17, 2017 by stillshimpy

[GrailKing]

11 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Who is Sansa that Jon has to discuss anything with her? What experience does she even have with ruling anything? He confers with  her as a courtesy not out of necessity. If she has a problem, take it up in private not in the middle of a meeting. Questioning his decisions in front of everybody only breeds discontent. 

She is the ligament Lady ( ruler until Bran arrives ) of Winterfell he is King by proclamation, but he is holding these meetings in HER house that's what gives her the right, period, he has Stark blood but not the half that gives him Winterfell.

Unless a visitor puts a gun to your head, you'r e not going to let them over rule your decisions in your house, are you?

[stagmania]

2 hours ago, stillshimpy said:

Well, I will take it.  I will take pretty much any uplifting scene that seemingly also existed to help Arya recall that a lot of good people end up being pawns of the bad.   I get that it reeked of stunt casting to others but as a for instance, my husband had no idea who Ed Sheeran is even after I sang him part of the love-you-until-decrepitude song, played part of for him too and his reaction?  "Yeah, I have no idea who that guy is but he has a good voice" ...and there are going to be people in the audience for whom that will be the case.  

Frankly, I'm all for stunt casting if it gives the narrative a few people worth caring about outside of the main cast.  

Your post made me laugh so hard ("love-you-until-decrepitude song"). And I agree, I liked the spirit of the scene. I just could've done without the stunt casting in the center of it. But they probably wouldn't have bothered to do a scene like that without the stunt, so it's a real catch-22.

36 minutes ago, dragonsbite said:

The seeming endless scenes of Samwell almost retching in his extremely awful duties implied a lot of time passed while he tried to find answers for Jon. That passage of time isn't reflected in what's happening in the North. BUT it does account for the activities in the South and on the water. How would Cersei find out so quickly about the death of the Freys and Dany's near arrival at Dragonstone. How could a ship with that kind of news get to King's Landing ahead of Dany's? And how did Dany's fleet arrive so quickly?

I have completely given up trying to understand space and time on this show. Each plot moves at whatever pace they want, and it's impossible to tell how close in time any one group of characters is to another. Dany is already at Dragonstone and Samwell has been training for weeks, yet Bran and Meera are still at the Wall and it seemed like the next day at Winterfell. 

[SimoneS]

38 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

In the beginning of the series, there was a justice system.  Albeit primitive, it was there.  Ned Stark had the authority in the North, and he did so with the Night's Watch when he punished the deserter.  The status of any laws is up in the air now that the country is at war, but they at least used to exist.  Arya has no power; she's not a queen or ruler.  Her power only stems from the fact that she can put on other people's faces and therefore hide and trick them.  That's not "power" at least in the sense that I was ever referring to; she has no legal authority.

IMO, Arya is a hypocrite.  She has this list of people she wants revenge on because they murdered someone in her family.  But now she's a murderer.  So she's just like the people she hates.  Um... ok.  Just not a favorite character of mine for many reasons - her vigilante justice is only one.

I simply cannot agree that there is any type of legal authority or justice system in Westeros that anyone would find meaningful. So what if rulers have "official power" or "legal authority." It doesn't mean that they should have it or that they use it wisely or fairly. I don't consider Ned beheading a young man fleeing the Night's Watch in terror because he saw white walkers justice just because it is law in Westeros. The law also says that the King/Queen is law and makes the law. Taking your position to its natural conclusion, Joffery had the legal authority to kill anyone so killing Roz and his siblings was justice. 

As for Arya being a hypocrite, welcome to the Game of Thrones. Lots of those running around. There are a lot of people who didn't deserve their deaths and are dead anyway and there are also a lot of dead people who deserved their deaths. Arya is responsible for quite a few of those in latter category from the people she had Jaquen kill, to the ones she killed when she was with the Hound, and when she was with the Faceless Men like that sick pedophile, Meryn Trant. Now I reflect on it, Arya does have an impressive body count so far.

Edited July 17, 2017 by SimoneS

[KungFuBunny]

17 hours ago, gbbarb said:

The need Littlefinger for his army as Sansa pointed out.  

Is it really Littlefinger's army? I thought they were Crazy Cousin Robin's. Sansa could have Littlefinger killed and bring in Cousin Robin - she had more influence and control over him.

[screamin]

6 hours ago, stagmania said:

Yes, it's incredibly tiresome, especially when the show seemed to be making the point that they were both somewhat right and both somewhat wrong. I believe the idea is that they need to learn to trust each other and combine the wisdom of their very different experiences to handle their various enemies.

  Reveal hidden contents

I'm looking forward to Jon heading for Dragonstone so we can stop going round and round in circles about every Jon/Sansa scene.

I think this is a big source of the inconsistent writing for Sansa; they haven't figured out what motivates her now. She has everything she previously wanted-to be home, to be safe, to get revenge on Ramsey-and yet she is dissatisfied and craving something else. Is it just power? Respect? Fealty? One would think that being Lady of Winterfell and having a seat at the King in the North's right hand would be enough to satisfy that. But they want to create some tension, I guess. 

I think the issue is that she feels she is not yet truly safe. No doubt this is partly PTSD, and she never really WILL feel truly safe again, but honestly, she's also right that she isn't really safe right now. Jon's power depends partly on the support of the Vale, and that depends on her hold on Littlefinger, who is the regent of the Vale and the official commander of the Vale forces in WF, as well as the likely source of the food the North will need to survive the winter. She hoped against hope that Jon could defeat Ramsey without LF so she wouldn't need to call on him for help, but he couldn't, so she had to. Now LF is there, they need him and they are stuck with him.  

Obviously Sansa would much rather LF went away and never came back, but she can't afford to dismiss him outright...if she did, in the best case scenario he would march off, leaving them without the Vale forces they need for defense and the Vale food they need to survive the winter. More likely he'd precipitate another of the deadly crises he's so good at engineering, in order to force her back into his power for protection...or maybe he'll just decide the pretty picture of himself on the Iron Throne doesn't really NEED Sansa at his side, and he'll off Jon and Sansa in one of his complex and weirdly successful murders. Currently she's trying to tame LF into more respect of her, but she knows he's a difficult person to manipulate; she's not safe, and who knows what he'll do if he gets too impatient? What alternative does she have? Confide in Honest Jon fully about her fears, and have HIM try and double-cross the master double-crosser to rid them of him? That would be suicide.

Hence her grasping after trying to improve their grip on power, her worry that Jon is too nice to rule successfully. I think that bit is actually pretty well-written.

[mac123x]

42 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

I've mentioned it twice now in the thread, but apparently I'm the only one who sees any significance to THAT SPECIFIC SWORD being thrust into the earth where the bodies of two innocent victims are being buried.  Will Sandor's remorse and attempt to make some type of amends trigger any response from the Lord of Light?

Can you be more specific?  I have no idea what is special about that sword. 

[Tikichick]

Just now, mac123x said:

Can you be more specific?  I have no idea what is special about that sword. 

Isn't that the sword that they're using when they bring Beric back to life?

[screamin]

Also, isn't it weird that Stannis didn't leave so much as a gatekeeper or a cleaning lady at Dragonstone? That just seemed silly to me.

[FnkyChkn34]

Just now, screamin said:

Also, isn't it weird that Stannis didn't leave so much as a gatekeeper or a cleaning lady at Dragonstone? That just seemed silly to me.

I was thinking that too - where are all the women and children?  His army appeared to only be men.

3 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Isn't that the sword that they're using when they bring Beric back to life?

Do they use a sword?  I thought it was the fire that was special?  Melissandre didn't need the sword for Jon.

[Statman]

1 minute ago, screamin said:

Also, isn't it weird that Stannis didn't leave so much as a gatekeeper or a cleaning lady at Dragonstone? That just seemed silly to me.

How do we know that he didn't?  And if he did, it's pretty logical that they went running for the hills when they saw three dragons and hundreds of ships approaching.

[Tikichick]

1 minute ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

I was thinking that too - where are all the women and children?  His army appeared to only be men.

Do they use a sword?  I thought it was the fire that was special?  Melissandre didn't need the sword for Jon.

I thought the sword was engulfed in flame each time.

[KungFuBunny]

2 minutes ago, screamin said:

Also, isn't it weird that Stannis didn't leave so much as a gatekeeper or a cleaning lady at Dragonstone? That just seemed silly to me.

Same here. I was waiting for someone anyone to come out of the woodwork and attack. Even a couple of squatters making themselves at home

[FnkyChkn34]

11 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

I simply cannot agree that there is any type of legal authority or justice system in Westeros that anyone would find meaningful. So what if rulers have "official power" or "legal authority." It doesn't mean that they should have it or that they use it wisely or fairly. I don't consider Ned beheading a young man fleeing the Night's Watch in terror because he saw white walkers justice just because it is law in Westeros. The law also says that the King/Queen is law and makes the law. Taking your position to its natural conclusion, Joffery had the legal authority to kill anyone so killing Roz and his siblings was justice. 

As for Arya being a hypocrite, welcome to the Game of Thrones. Lots of those running around. There are a lot of people who didn't deserve their deaths and are dead anyway and there are also a lot of dead people who deserved their deaths. Arya is responsible for quite a few of those in latter category from the people she had Jaquen kill, to the ones she killed when she was with the Hound, and when she was with the Faceless Men like that sick pedophile, Meryn Trant. Now I reflect on it, Arya does have an impressive body count so far.

Well, they sure take Oaths seriously, so why wouldn't they take laws seriously (assuming there are some, like what happens when you break an oath...).  Joffrey did his killings in the time of war, and I've already explained my opinion on the difference.  Timing matters.  Robert appeared to have established "law and order" in the country for many years between the time of his rebellion and this new war.  So that's why I say that there were laws and people authorized to carry out those laws.

And she does have an impressive body count; she became a murderer because she hates murderers.  Yep. ::eyeroll::  (She's even worse in the books, in my opinion.)

4 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

I thought the sword was engulfed in flame each time.

I guess I didn't pay enough attention.  Is it Valyrian steel?  (Sorry if I can't spell.)  If so, Jon's going to need that.

[screamin]

36 minutes ago, Statman said:

How do we know that he didn't?  And if he did, it's pretty logical that they went running for the hills when they saw three dragons and hundreds of ships approaching.

Well, we didn't see anyone at the gate or in the entire place, which looked completely abandoned for awhile (remember the dust). This was Stannis' home and seat of power for decades, and lords aren't supposed to leave their estates without caretakers when they march off to war. As fnkychckn34 observed, women and children generally stay behind when the men march off to war (yes, Stannis took his wife and child, but we saw no indication that his entire army did the same.) The total emptiness made the place look like a stage set, not a believable lord's manor. And yes, I know it IS a stage set, but the point of good direction is to conceal facts like that.

Edited July 17, 2017 by screamin

[mac123x]

Ah, got it.  Beric's sword is just a sword.  Back in season 3, he cut his hand and ran blood down it and it caught fire for his fight with the Hound.  It didn't have anything to do with Beric's frequent resurrections - that was due to Thoros praying over his cooling corpse and R'hlor reviving him.

 

So it doesn't seem likely that the dead farmer and his daughter will be coming back to life.

[WindyNights]

I really miss my Anti-Christ figure Euron.

 

I liked GRRM's version of a Lovecraftian Sauron/Saruman.

 

Also Sansa's really taking cues from Cersei. That snap back at LF at not needing to seize the last weird because she'll assume it's something clever is something Cersei has said to him.

[SimoneS]

53 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Well, they sure take Oaths seriously, so why wouldn't they take laws seriously (assuming there are some, like what happens when you break an oath...).  Joffrey did his killings in the time of war, and I've already explained my opinion on the difference.  Timing matters.  Robert appeared to have established "law and order" in the country for many years between the time of his rebellion and this new war.  So that's why I say that there were laws and people authorized to carry out those laws.

Joffery did not kill his baby siblings, Roz the prostitute, or Mycah in a time of war. I don't even know how you can claim that these murders were justice under any circumstances because of law in Westeros. I am ending my participation in this conversation because we are going in circles and that is the "law" on this forum. 

Edited July 17, 2017 by SimoneS

[Alapaki]

27 minutes ago, screamin said:

Well, we didn't see anyone at the gate or in the entire place, which looked completely abandoned. This was Stannis' home and seat of power for decades, and lords aren't supposed to leave their estates without caretakers when they march off to war. As fnkychckn34 observed, women and children generally stay behind when the men march off to war (yes, Stannis took his wife and child, but we saw no indication that his entire army did the same.) The total emptiness made the place look like a stage set, not a believable lord's manor. And yes, I know it IS a stage set, but the point of good direction is to conceal facts like that.

My understanding is Dragonstone was a volcanic island.  I doubt there would have been much more than the Castle and the associated buildings.  I can buy the whole place being abandoned once whoever was left learned about the fate of Stannis and his army. 

[Snowball II]

I'll fanwank that all the women and children Stannis left behind at Dragonstone cleared out once they heard Danaerys and her dragons were coming.  Being Baratheon peeps, they probably figured the Dragon Queen wasn't going to show them any mercy when she landed.  Works for me.

I feel the same way about Arya murdering the Freys as I did Dany murdering the Dothraki from last season.  They deserved it.  Fuck 'em.

[Raachel2008]

3 hours ago, Hanahope said:

Notably, Arya didn't kill any Frey wives or children.  She only killed the adult men who were active participants in the murder of her family.  I found it interesting that in her speech to the men, as they died, she said how if they wanted to "do the job right" they would have rooted out all of the Starks and killed them, but they didn't.  Well, she didn't do that either, since she didn't kill any Frey children.  

This a millions times. It makes no sense at all. Arya herself was a young girl when her father, brother, mother, sister-in-law were killed along with many of the Northern lords/heirs. And there she is avenging all of them. What makes she thinks that none of those Frey women or younger boys are going to try to kill whoever killed their father/grandfather/brothers/husbands/etc? Or is Arya so so so special that she is the only felame and the only child who will live day after day thinking about vengeance? 

And I loathe, LOATHE the implication that all Frey women were innocent; just because they didn't cut someone's throat doesn't mean they at least some were not part of it. Also it is such a sexist box to place women in, the innocent flowers who did nothing and were pushed around by the evil men. Yes, Walder Frey was no Ned Stark, and the Twins are not Dorne, but it rubbed me the wrong way, specially when in the same episode Sansa wanted to strip Alys Karstark from her lands and titles. How can you go from all Frey women are inocent - no matter the age or place in the Frey hierarchy - to a teenager like Alys being guilty for her father's sins?

The show narrative towards women is beyond contrived, one one hand you have Jon deciding women will learn how to fight too, in a scene where Brienne is the focus of the camera not one but three or four times, thus 'validating' those women who are not the norm in Westeros, but on another you have Lyanna Mormont saying she won't stay behind knitting, as if knitting is degrading or make her a lesser girl in a reversed way. For all Sansa drives me crazy, I like that she doesn't want to suddenly become Brienne or Arya.

Back to Arya, while the Freys killing made for one of those carnage scenes GoT love so much, I wanted to know the logistics of the killing: how did she know which Freys to kill, how did she poison their wine? Such a poorly written plot, and I'm fed up with the whole 'face' thing. If she can take anyone face, what is the point? She could gone to King's Landing already and killed Cersei and Jamie.

Ed Sheeran didn't bother me. What bothered me is that Arya found reasonable to approach 8 soldiers on her own; what if they attacked her? What if they tried to rape her? She is not a child anymore, she can't pass as one anymore (not that it would stop some psycho creep), She was so cool about the whole thing, like she wouldn't ever be in danger. I liked that the soldiers were your regular decent  guys drafted into the Lannister army, however, I'm not sure if they would be so blasé about someone, even a gir, saying she was going to kill the queen. How come she doesn't know Jon and Sansa took Winterfell back?

I'm not a fan of the Hound, but I liked his scenes very much. I feel they were well done and were a nice way to tie the Hound, Beric and the Brotherhood in the war to come. They are hiding North, right? If so, I would love to see Arya and Sansa meeting with him, as well as Brienne.

I'm done, DONE with this Jon x Sansa thing. It is badly written, more than anything else. I'm not sure if they had discussed the topics of this meeting before or if Jon had a Hand or established a small council, but either way he is the King, and yes Sansa undermined him. It is different than Royce and the others, because they are not family. I side with Jon here, because the children should not pay for their fathers errors, something Sansa herself experienced first hand.

I'm willing to BET that Alys Karstark or Ned Umber will save Sansa's life in the future. Wait and see.

Someone please explain me why they need LF.  Robbin is Sansa and Jon's cousin, he is a Tully byt bother and the son of Ned Stark's mentor. His alliance is to the Starks, pure and simple, and if LF were gone, his army would still support the Starks. So, why LF didn't trip in one of those stairs and broke his neck is beyond me.

Edited July 17, 2017 by Raachel2008
I cannot spell.

[Tikichick]

One of Stannis' biggest challenges was simply the feeding of his forces.  I don't imagine they had much of anything to leave behind at Dragonstone, so why would anyone remain if the food ran out?

[stagmania]

51 minutes ago, screamin said:

Hence her grasping after trying to improve their grip on power, her worry that Jon is too nice to rule successfully. I think that bit is actually pretty well-written.

I like this angle on her story, and agree it tracks nicely with her ongoing arc with Littlefinger, though I don't know that the show is really telling this specific story. I think they muddled her motivations by bringing Cersei into the conversation with Jon and making the comparison between them. 

[Statman]

8 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

This a millions times. It makes no sense at all. Arya herself was a young girl when her father, brother, mother, sister-in-law were killed along with many of the Northern lords/heirs. And there she is avenging all of them. What makes she thinks that none of those Frey women or younger boys are going to try to kill whoever killed their father/grandfather/brothers/husbands/etc? Or is Arya so so so special that she is the only felame and the only child who will live day after day thinking about vengeance? 

Any remaining Freys would have no idea who poisoned everyone in the room.  Arya didn't say her name to the woman left to pass the message along - she just said that the North remembers and Winter came for the Freys.  

Besides, even if those women survivors recognized Arya Stark, who is going to believe that Walder Frey removed his face and became Arya Stark?  Those women probably don't even know that Faceless Men exist.

Edited July 17, 2017 by Statman

[shireenbamfatheon]

6 hours ago, anamika said:

Jon has got the loyalty of the children. They swore to him.

The same way Sansa pledged her allegiance to Joffrey post-season one when her father had been killed for treason and she was surrounded by enemies? What else were they supposed to say? They're kids and the Starks killed their fathers. Is 10-year-old Ned really standing there thinking his father deserved it for being a traitor? Did that thought ever even occur to Arya or Sansa or Bran or Jon when Ned was beheaded for seeking to get rid of Joffrey, whose illegitimacy the Stark kids weren't aware of? 

[FnkyChkn34]

17 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

Joffery did not kill his baby siblings, Roz the prostitute, or Mycah in a time of war. I don't even know how you can claim that these murders were justice under circumstances because of law in Westeros. I am ending my participation in this conversation because we are going in circles and is the "law" on this forum. 

I never said Joffrey's murders were justice in any way, shape, or form; I didn't claim anything.  Sorry, but you did, and it made no sense to me, so I didn't address it.  All I said was that he did his killings in the time of war, which has been the entire series.  Is there not still a war going on?  And it started in season 1, so... but never anything about Joffrey dispensing "justice" on innocent people.  That's murder.  Joffrey may have been king at the time, but he was a king who murdered.  None of those people did anything wrong for which they needed justice.  But yet everyone is defending Arya by saying she dispensed "justice" because Frey wasn't innocent; well, that's murder too, because she had no authority to dispense justice.  She's a vigilante.

[FnkyChkn34]

2 minutes ago, Statman said:

Any remaining Freys would have no idea who poisoned everyone in the room.  Arya didn't say her name to the woman left to pass the message along - she just said that the North remembers and Winter came for the Freys.  

Besides, even if those women survivors recognized Arya Stark, who is going to believe that Walder Frey removed his face and became Arya Stark?  Those women probably don't even know that Faceless Men exist.

Anyone in Westeros with half a brain will put two and two together to realize that they were all poisoned by a Stark or someone supporting the Starks.  No one has to know it was Arya specifically for them to want revenge on the Starks.  Who cares if no one believes them that Walder Frey removed his face and was Arya - the women will still pass the message that "the North remembers" and "winter came" for them.

[cambridgeguy]

If Cersei and Jaime had come to the realization that Dany would land at Dragonstone earlier and planted "20 good men" to assassinate her the moment she started walking around with only a few bodyguards they could have saved themselves what will no doubt be a lot of trouble.

[stillshimpy]

Fun thing that I noticed on a rewatch: When Arya declares that she's on her way to King's Landing to murder the Queen, she's not doing it for a big "Ha ha!" moment.  She's doing it to see if they will give her reason to kill them all because of course they aren't going to assume that a young teen girl is capable of taking them all out.  So if they had an ugly side, there was the invitation to show it.  

And for a second, they all just look at her in astonishment and apprehension, possibly with a threat because it has to be a joke from their perspective as she's a teen girl and sure, that's a badass blade an all but she's wicked levels of outnumbered so she'd be slaughtered in any "Totally have the aura of magicks on my side" other scenario.  That was practically an engraved note saying, "So if you are the type who are actually waiting for a reason to do horrific shit, which wouldn't in the least surprise me because I've seen some wedding receptions in my time...here you go:  I just declared myself your enemy."   

By the laws of that land, they'd have been justified in engaging all manner of "you...suck" behavior.  She's declared herself an enemy combatant.   Pretty much no matter what (capable of it, or not) if she's telling the truth and then, by the law of war, it is ON.  

And they all register that with a big ol' ..."The hell you just say?"  look and instead of turning out to be waiting for a reason to gang rape her or kill her or eat her or all of the above:  they laughed it off as a joke but not before considering the "....uh...that's the same as declaring yourself our enemy and only a crazy person would do that in these circumstances....so....either you're crazy or that's a joke.  Let's err on the side of funny and see who laughs?"   

But watching Arya's reaction, she's taking note of that part too.  She's waiting to see what they will say or do.  Waiting to see if they will give her the reason to go apeshit assassin on the lot of them.  They decline to even take up the "therefore, we can do with you what we like" and continue to share a meager dinner with her.  

Arya has seen and done things in Black and White after being in the house thereof and after, again, being an incredibly traumatized child who saw her brother's body with a wolf's head sewed to it while men laughed, drank and jeered at him.   It's sort of understandable that her social skills have been running towards "kill-kill-kill-veins-in-my-teeth-weapons-of-mass-destruction" rather than someone who understands there are all kinds of ways to be a victim of the schemes of others.  

But watching that again carefully, she wasn't doing it thinking they would laugh.  I think she was doing it to test their "we're decent men, pulled into the wars of others" ways....and they passed in ways she didn't expect but needed to see. 

[Raachel2008]

Ops. Nothing here.

Edited July 17, 2017 by Raachel2008

[FnkyChkn34]

2 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

If Cersei and Jaime had come to the realization that Dany would land at Dragonstone earlier and planted "20 good men" to assassinate her the moment she started walking around with only a few bodyguards they could have saved themselves what will no doubt be a lot of trouble.

A few bodyguards... but 3 dragons.  Dragons who flew out and scouted the island and castle in advance.  Only 20 men wouldn't stand a chance.

[stillshimpy]

16 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

And there she is avenging all of them. What makes she thinks that none of those Frey women or younger boys are going to try to kill whoever killed their father/grandfather/brothers/husbands/etc? Or is Arya so so so special that she is the only felame and the only child who will live day after day thinking about vengeance? 

Demonstrably not.  She didn't say, "Tell them that Arya Stark forever closed all of their eyes"  she said, "Tell them The North Remembered, tell them Winter Came for them" she did not stand up there with a bullhorn and a calling card.   She did something that proved she was a Faceless Man (universal sense, not gender-specific) and then proclaimed herself winter.  

She didn't tell Frey's widow anything else.  That's why Cersei doesn't know what killed all the Freys.   That's why she doesn't know she's next on "Winter"'s list.  

[Tikichick]

2 minutes ago, stillshimpy said:

Fun thing that I noticed on a rewatch: When Arya declares that she's on her way to King's Landing to murder the Queen, she's not doing it for a big "Ha ha!" moment.  She's doing it to see if they will give her reason to kill them all because of course they aren't going to assume that a young teen girl is capable of taking them all out.  So if they had an ugly side, there was the invitation to show it.  

And for a second, they all just look at her in astonishment and apprehension, possibly with a threat because it has to be a joke from their perspective as she's a teen girl and sure, that's a badass blade an all but she's wicked levels of outnumbered so she'd be slaughtered in any "Totally have the aura of magicks on my side" other scenario.  That was practically an engraved note saying, "So if you are the type who are actually waiting for a reason to do horrific shit, which wouldn't in the least surprise me because I've seen some wedding receptions in my time...here you go:  I just declared myself your enemy."   

By the laws of that land, they'd have been justified in engaging all manner of "you...suck" behavior.  She's declared herself an enemy combatant.   Pretty much no matter what (capable of it, or not) if she's telling the truth and then, by the law of war, it is ON.  

And they all register that with a big ol' ..."The hell you just say?"  look and instead of turning out to be waiting for a reason to gang rape her or kill her or eat her or all of the above:  they laughed it off as a joke but not before considering the "....uh...that's the same as declaring yourself our enemy and only a crazy person would do that in these circumstances....so....either you're crazy or that's a joke.  Let's err on the side of funny and see who laughs?"   

But watching Arya's reaction, she's taking note of that part too.  She's waiting to see what they will say or do.  Waiting to see if they will give her the reason to go apeshit assassin on the lot of them.  They decline to even take up the "therefore, we can do with you what we like" and continue to share a meager dinner with her.  

Arya has seen and done things in Black and White after being in the house thereof and after, again, being an incredibly traumatized child who saw her brother's body with a wolf's head sewed to it while men laughed, drank and jeered at him.   It's sort of understandable that her social skills have been running towards "kill-kill-kill-veins-in-my-teeth-weapons-of-mass-destruction" rather than someone who understands there are all kinds of ways to be a victim of the schemes of others.  

But watching that again carefully, she wasn't doing it thinking they would laugh.  I think she was doing it to test their "we're decent men, pulled into the wars of others" ways....and they passed in ways she didn't expect but needed to see. 

Exactly.  She sat down at the table (checking and displaying Needle's hilt en route) and promptly decided to "call" their hands.  I assumed she wanted to see what they would all do while she was wide awake and completely alert in case she needed to fight.

[Statman]

5 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Anyone in Westeros with half a brain will put two and two together to realize that they were all poisoned by a Stark or someone supporting the Starks.  No one has to know it was Arya specifically for them to want revenge on the Starks.  Who cares if no one believes them that Walder Frey removed his face and was Arya - the women will still pass the message that "the North remembers" and "winter came" for them.

That could be every Northern House because they all lost family members in the Red Wedding.  

Besides, what are the Freys going to do?  Send assassins to take everyone remaining in the Northern Houses?  

[Tikichick]

Just now, Statman said:

That could be every Northern House because they all lost family members in the Red Wedding.  

Besides, what are the Freys going to do?  Send assassins to take everyone remaining in the Northern Houses?  

It would be curiously ironic if they did so.  I seem to remember Jamie reminding Walder that they were ostensibly in place as loyal bannermen to hold that castle as a strategic defense/offense for the Lannisters and if they couldn't do so without the Lannisters coming to defend the Freys everytime there was trouble, why did they need them at all?

[Raachel2008]

7 minutes ago, stillshimpy said:

Demonstrably not.  She didn't say, "Tell them that Arya Stark forever closed all of their eyes"  she said, "Tell them The North Remembered, tell them Winter Came for them" she did not stand up there with a bullhorn and a calling card.   She did something that proved she was a Faceless Man (universal sense, not gender-specific) and then proclaimed herself winter.  

 

7 minutes ago, Statman said:

That could be every Northern House because they all lost family members in the Red Wedding.  

But she mentioned a pregnant woman (Talisa) and a mother of five children (Catelyn), she mentioned the Starks.  It was obvious that the Face was there because of the Starks and she showed her face. Sorry, but not impossible at all.

Edited July 17, 2017 by Raachel2008

[blackwing]

Dumb question, but Cersei said she was the Queen of the Seven Kingdoms and Jaime said she was really queen of only three?  What are the seven Kingdoms again?  I think they are the areas surrounding the North, the Iron Islands, Dragonstone, Kings Landing, Casterly Rock, Highgarden, and Dorne.  Which three are Cersei supposed to have?  I gather Kings Landing and Casterly Rock but don't know which the third one is supposed to be, unless Jaime was counting the Iron Islands?

18 hours ago, Advance35 said:

I could have done without the DISGUSTING montage in the citadel.  I would have honestly preferred catching up with Olenna and even Ellaria and her girls.

I thought the repeated quick cut scenes of Sam retching were hilarious, but I did find it disgusting.  Especially since I was eating.  I will never look at a bowl of lentil or bean soup the same way ever again.

18 hours ago, gbbarb said:

If a Stark has no say is her ancestral home then what does she have?  She has as much right to that throne as Jon.  She didn't fight him for the good of the north but if he ignores her then he diminishes her and that is wrong

So if I recall correctly, Sansa is the Lady of Winterfell, since she is the legitimate heir.  Which afforded her the right to sit at that head table, since they were in Winterfell.  But Jon got named the King in the North even though he has no real title?  So he outranks her now, even though they are half-siblings and she might even be older than him?

6 hours ago, Francie said:

I'm over the cliche of the plain-speaking, wiser-than-her-years grand-standing speeches of a 10-year-old. Look how plucky she is! And how much common sense she has!

I actually like the character. I like Davos, and I'm sure they'll forge a connection, just like Shireen and Davos. And when Lyanna is killed and turned into a wight and Davos has to witness that, it'll be heart-breaking for much of the audience, and cloying for the a small minority thereof. 

But her little speech in this episode was a lazy writer's ploy. She had a great entrance. She had a decent rallying speech last season. Now it's become a go-to crutch. 

I'm with those that are tired of Lyanna Mormont, for the same reasons.  It just seems like her only role is going to shame men into doing whatever Jon wants.  "I'm just a wee little girl but my balls are bigger than those of any of you big strong men."  It's tired.

[Tikichick]

Sansa isn't older than Jon.  Cannot remember if Jon or Robb was older, but Sansa definitely is younger than Jon.

[cambridgeguy]

3 minutes ago, blackwing said:

Dumb question, but Cersei said she was the Queen of the Seven Kingdoms and Jaime said she was really queen of only three?  What are the seven Kingdoms again?  I think they are the areas surrounding the North, the Iron Islands, Dragonstone, Kings Landing, Casterly Rock, Highgarden, and Dorne.  Which three are Cersei supposed to have?  I gather Kings Landing and Casterly Rock but don't know which the third one is supposed to be, unless Jaime was counting the Iron Islands?

There's the North (Jon), the Vale (LF), the Iron Islands (Euron), the Westerlands (Cersei), the Riverlands (???), the Reach (Oleanna), Dorne (Ellaria), the Stormlands (???), and I guess the Crownlands (Cersei).  I don't know who has the Stormlands with all the Baratheons dead and the Riverlands appear to be up for grabs with Edmure presumably still in a dungeon and the Freys wiped out by Arya.

[tangerine95]

Loved the episode,I really missed this show.

Arya killing all the Freys was so satisfying tbh and I like that she didn't kill the women that had nothing to do with it.The Ed Sheeran scene felt kinda forced for the sake of a cameo but it was nice to see not all the Lannister soldiers are awful and I liked seeing Arya in a somewhat lighter scene.

I'm so annoyed that Jaime is still with Cersei,it makes no sense imo.She basically did what he killed the mad king for and he's still there.I do think he'll probably reach his limit this season and abandon her but I feel like they started developing him in season 3 and then just paused that and mostly regressed him for the next 3 seasons.After reading the books,the way they dealt with Jaime is one of the things I really dislike.

When it comes to Jon and Sansa I could see both of their points but I do think Jon made the right decision.I get Sansa thinking its better that they reward the houses that stood by them but knowing those were just kids its hard for me to see how she would argue for punishing them for what their fathers did because that's exactly what happened to her.I do think she wants to protect Jon and that's her motivation and not the crap about being queen that LF is trying to sell her but I think she really shouldn't undermine him in front of his bannerman and they should argue when they disagree in private and be united in public.She seems pretty afraid that he'll end up like Ned or Robb which is partly why I think she keeps arguing with him on every decision and for Jon he doesn't seem aware of just how much she actually has knowledge in how to deal with people like Cersei or Ramsey so he doesn't listen.

I thought Sam got too much screentime especially considering he just confirmed what Stannis already told him,like did we really need to see that gross montage.

Dany coming home,was a great scene and visually beautiful tho I do wish we got more of her this episode.

Edited July 17, 2017 by tangerine95

[Constantinople]

32 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Anyone in Westeros with half a brain will put two and two together to realize that they were all poisoned by a Stark or someone supporting the Starks.  No one has to know it was Arya specifically for them to want revenge on the Starks.  Who cares if no one believes them that Walder Frey removed his face and was Arya - the women will still pass the message that "the North remembers" and "winter came" for them.

 

25 minutes ago, Statman said:

That could be every Northern House because they all lost family members in the Red Wedding.

That's true but how many Northern Houses have words that are variations of "Winter Came"?