S07.E01: Dragonstone

[Tikichick]

1 minute ago, stillshimpy said:

So moving on from the evidence of extensive trauma in all things Stark:

Jorah's appearance:  The Stonemen lose their humanity entirely, don't they?  Is that what's happening to Jorah in that cell?  It was obvious when Sam was on yet another round of pan removal, I have to admit to having been somewhat fascinated because clearly, he's removing them from cells which meant that "Oh another round of....wait, no this will be different shit..." and Jorah's arm darted out in that positively deranged manner, what occurred to me was not, "Yay, it's Jorah!"  because even though I recognized the voice, I was more struck by the "Oh shit, it's Jorah...and he just lunged his infected arm at Sam like he's becoming a Stoneman".  

I shudder to think what condition he'll be in by the time he finally sees Dany again.   

But don't we think that somehow the essence of the stonemen must play a part in this somehow?  Dany has her window into this and so does Jon, via Davos and Shireen.  IMO it means something.

[FnkyChkn34]

1 minute ago, piequinn35 said:

It is called "urge" to kill for serial killers. Arya is not a serial killer, she is only doing it for revenge.

But she has an urge for revenge, soo... yeah.  Sorry, same thing in my book, especially because there could be plenty of other ways to get revenge, but she's chosen to do so only through murder.

[Katsullivan]

3 hours ago, Tikichick said:

I'm starting to have second thoughts about what Sansa meant when she said she knew exactly what Littlefinger wanted.  She may be playing him more than we expect, and she may have been referring to more than the obvious. 

Sansa "knew" that LF wanted her ass. It was that same smug assurance that made her leave the safety of the Vale with him as her companion, and was sold off to marriage to the Boltons. There was no second-level manipulation from her at the council meeting. She wasn't "fronting" to make Petyr think she and Jon were divided. For one: daft - she might deceive Petyr, but she's still harming Jon's rule and two: Sansa is not smart enough to pull that kind of long game. 

[Tikichick]

24 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

But she has an urge for revenge, soo... yeah.  Sorry, same thing in my book, especially because there could be plenty of other ways to get revenge, but she's chosen to do so only through murder.

Actually IMO Arya is seeking vengence and justice on behalf of others who were wronged and cannot seek it for themselves.  She's like Santa with a rather different list.  Santa's list isn't about Santa anymore than Arya's is about Arya.  It's not revenge on behalf of Arya.  It's not vengence and justice on behalf of Arya.  It's Arya trying to right what she sees as wrongs.

Edited July 18, 2017 by Tikichick
Word correction.

[screamin]

6 minutes ago, KungFuBunny said:

Robyn doesn't even have control of his own faculties. The person who can control and manipulate Robyn can control his army. I think Sansa is capable of manipulating Robyn to her advantage. They should get rid of LF

Indeed they should. The question is - how.

See, part of the trouble is the difference between Book LF and Show LF. Book LF is a genuine evil genius. When we see him in the book, effortlessly screwing over the lords Declarant, and subsequently explaining to Sansa exactly how he pulled their strings and how he will kill anyone she accidentally reveals anything to and it will be HER fault and their blood on her hands (all while fondling her breasts, demanding kisses with tongue, AND requesting she think of him as "Father" in her heart), you can totally believe along with Sansa that if she tries to take him down she will likely fail, and at best go down with him.

Show LF, OTOH? Is an idiot. (What, exactly, were you trying to gain by marrying off Sansa, your most prized possession and gamepiece to Ramsey, where it is likely she'd be killed with no profit to you?) His whole scheme that got Sansa to the North and put him as the commander of the Vale armies in the North (when he has no military experience or aptitude) is both out of character and fundamentally dumb. Writing him this way was convenient for the showrunners, who wanted Sansa in the North, but it makes LF look a lot more buffoonish - and therefore less dangerous than he's supposed to be. That makes it a lot less clear than it's supposed to be WHY Sansa can't just tell Brienne to snap LF's neck. You could believe Book LF has the best bodyguards nearby at all times and multiple crooked cronies ready to destroy anyone who tries to cross him because he's made it worth their while. It's hard to believe the same of Show LF.

Still, there are difficulties in getting rid of him. As I mentioned, Jon wouldn't want to murder a guest in his home, and it would turn a great many potential allies against him after LF saved his ass. Jon would want a proper trial, and a man like LF (BOOK LF, at least) is likely to be able to muster with his cash and his blackmail material a very good defense, which may include threatening to have Sansa hang next to him if they insist on hanging him (it's unclear how much Sansa has told Jon of Lysa's death, but LF can easily accuse her of being his willing accomplice.) If Jon DOES decide to just feed him to his direwolf, well - we know Bronze Yohn Royce hates LF and would go along with it, but Book LF would likely have Lyn Corbray ready to call Yohn an accomplice of Jon's murder of Robin's regent, and attack Jon and Yohn together with the Vale army to get the Regency himself. Book Sansa has a special rapport with Robin, but not on the show - and he's too far away to appeal to, anyway. There are multiple ways an attack on LF could go hideously wrong.

[FnkyChkn34]

1 minute ago, Tikichick said:

Actually IMO Arya is seeking vengence and justice on behalf of others who were wronged and cannot seek it for themselves.  She's like Santa with a rather different list.  Santa's list isn't about Santa anymore than Arya's is about Arya.  It's not revenge on behalf of Arya.  It's not vengence and justice on behalf of Arya.  It's Arya trying to write what she sees as wrongs.

Fair enough, but that still makes her a vigilante.  Maybe that's the difference between revenge vs. avenge?  Either way, I still don't believe it's up to her to take matters into her own hands, only deciding what she sees as right and wrong, and I don't like the character.  :-)  

[Katsullivan]

Nice analysis @screamin. But you're doing the writers's job for them. The show should have already made this clear.

[Tikichick]

2 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Fair enough, but that still makes her a vigilante.  Maybe that's the difference between revenge vs. avenge?  Either way, I still don't believe it's up to her to take matters into her own hands, only deciding what she sees as right and wrong, and I don't like the character.  :-)  

Okay, she's a vigilante and you don't like the character.  I think you may have mentioned that.

I started out loathing Sansa until she got a heart and a clue.

[GrailKing]

8 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

Sansa "knew" that LF wanted her ass. It was that same smug assurance that made her leave the safety of the Vale with him as her companion, and was sold off to marriage to the Boltons. There was no second-level manipulation from her at the council meeting. She wasn't "fronting" to make Petyr think she and Jon were divided. For one: daft - she might deceive Petyr, but she's still harming Jon's rule and two: Sansa is not smart enough to pull that kind of long game. 

I think your wrong, she knows he wants her, but she knows he wants power more, she's playing him until a time she gets what she needs to in Stark words bring winter to him, if Bran,Arya and the Hound all are in WF at one time or Bran alone LF screwed.

Sansa's not letting him get anywhere near Bran or Arya (Arya can protect herself ) she's the Mother in Winterfell along with the Lady of Winterfell, he's stuffed waiting for baking.

[FnkyChkn34]

5 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Okay, she's a vigilante and you don't like the character.  I think you may have mentioned that.

I started out loathing Sansa until she got a heart and a clue.

Sansa has always just been fluff and filler to me.  I think I basically ignored her until last season.  I might warm up to her more now that she's interacting with Jon and putting Littlefinger in his place.  Arya?  Meh.  Maybe she'll grow on me as well as she finally matures, but I won't hold my breath. :-)

[Tikichick]

8 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

Sansa "knew" that LF wanted her ass. It was that same smug assurance that made her leave the safety of the Vale with him as her companion, and was sold off to marriage to the Boltons. There was no second-level manipulation from her at the council meeting. She wasn't "fronting" to make Petyr think she and Jon were divided. For one: daft - she might deceive Petyr, but she's still harming Jon's rule and two: Sansa is not smart enough to pull that kind of long game. 

Sansa watched all the goings on in KL with Cersei, Joffrey, Tywin, Tyrion, Marjorie, Olenna, etc.  Sansa watched Littlefinger's manipulations with Lysa and everyone else at the Aerie.  Littlefinger orchestrated Sansa's marriage to Ramsey.  Sansa had the balls to escape Ramsey on a wing and a prayer and did it anyway.

Sansa ain't the starry eyed dimbo who nearly tripped over her own feet to get from the backwater of Winterfell to the court at King's Landing.  Sansa's been watching a long time now and has had more than ample motivation to get a clue.  Girlfriend's gonna get her pound of flesh.  She's done a damn good job keeping the molten lava of anger in check regarding his marrying her off to someone he knew to be a complete sadist.  Nowhere he's going to be able to run for cover when she's ready.  That look on her face?  It's Sansa making sure she will be more than ready when the day comes. 

[Normades]

Personally, I took the time Arya spent with the soldiers as her realizing that just because they wear Lannister colors doesn't mean they are all bad people.  I don't think she killed them, I think it was her learning to humanize even an enemy soldier.  

I don't find the faceless man changes such a difficult jump to make.  I don't think the term faceless was meant to be taken literally.  To me, it means more of having no identity.  This realm deals with some magical concepts so I don't find Arya's physical changes so difficult to believe. 

I've seen people discussing Dany possibly inheriting madness from her father, but I see lots of parallels between Cersei and the Mad King.  She is power hungry, paranoid, murderous, and delighted in blowing up the sept with wildfyre.  I think it will be interesting if Jamie ends up killing her, just like he killed the Mad King.  

[Dev F]

1 hour ago, Francie said:

Chap. 64 of ADWD is where Arya changes faces in the books. There’s some magic involved in the sealing of the face.  Arya had to drink a milky potion as well (so, did she bring that with her from Bravos? Get the recipe before she left? Just needed to take it once and done?) Arya even feels the remnants of the presence of the person who had that face. But that’s the extent of the magic. But it changed her face, and her face alone.

Arya asks how her face looks different, and they tell her. They don’t tell her that anything else has changed.  She’s still a young girl – an ugly girl. Once she commits the crime, she returns and Jaqen tells her that he’ll give her a new face for the next day – a prettier one. Again, a prettier face.

When I read that passage the first time, I absolutely had the understanding that Arya’s voice didn’t magically change into this dead person’s whom she had never met. Her hands didn’t change. Her height didn’t change. Her gender didn’t change. Her face changed. Hence, the faceless men.  I don’t change my reading on a second read through yesterday.

That's evidence from the book, though, and at this point it's pretty clear that the show is a different and often massively simplified version of the same basic story. I wouldn't privilege anything the book says over the evidence we've seen on screen, which has consistently shown the faces to effect a full-body transformation.

Though even in the books, I never got the impression that the faces were literal masks that simply changed what Arya's face looked like. Martin makes a point of the fact that Arya herself can't feel any of the changes in her appearance the face provides: "She probed around inside her mouth with her tongue, but found no holes or broken teeth." It's not a physical transformation; it's an illusion that causes other people to perceive her as the person the face once was, even though in actuality she's just wearing an unconvincing flap of skin. And considering that illusion is already capable of causing people to perceive her as having missing teeth and a broken jaw, it's not much of a leap for me to assume that it can also cause them to perceive her as having wrinkled hands or being a foot taller or whatever.

I mean, I do get the thematic objection -- why are they called the Faceless if they can change their whole body? But "Faceless" is just a metaphor anyway; the real point is that the are No One and thus can become anyone, which is just as true of a person who can change his whole body as one who can just change his face. The series has made changes to the source material much more egregious, much more thematically inappropriate, so to me this seems like a scorekeeping objection ("The books did X, so how dare the show do Y!") more than a meaningful beef ("The show did Y, which entirely misses the point of why the books did X!"). But maybe I'm missing some of the nuance that's been lost.

[Katsullivan]

3 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Sansa watched all the goings on in KL with Cersei, Joffrey, Tywin, Tyrion, Marjorie, Olenna, etc.  Sansa watched Littlefinger's manipulations with Lysa and everyone else at the Aerie.  Littlefinger orchestrated Sansa's marriage to Ramsey.  Sansa had the balls to escape Ramsey on a wing and a prayer and did it anyway.

Sansa ain't the starry eyed dimbo who nearly tripped over her own feet to get from the backwater of Winterfell to the court at King's Landing.  Sansa's been watching a long time now and has had more than ample motivation to get a clue.  Girlfriend's gonna get her pound of flesh.  She's done a damn good job keeping the molten lava of anger in check regarding his marrying her off to someone he knew to be a complete sadist.  Nowhere he's going to be able to run for cover when she's ready.  That look on her face?  It's Sansa making sure she will be more than ready when the day comes. 

I really wish this was the show I was watching because it would be so much more interesting than watching Sansa getting fooled at every turn in King's Landing by Joffrey and Cersei, then Margarey and Olenna, until she waltzed her way into a wedding with Tyrion. At least book!Sansa had the backbone to refuse to kneel for the cloaking but TV!Sansa was the good little girl that lay down on her own altar. She provided the intel that motivated Olenna to want Joffrey dead - then she got framed for her trouble. She thought she had an ally with the Knight she rescued, her "true" Knight - and he ended up being another of Littlefinger's pawns and she was delivered up to Mr. Pervert. Somehow between being sexually assaulted by him, and watching him murder his wife, Sansa concluded that he was her staunch ally and let him talk her into marrying into the same family who murdered her brother and mother. She could have escaped from that situation up until the very point of her marriage - yet somehow she convinced herself that her name was enough to protect her from someone whose House motto was "a flayed man has no secrets". You'd think she'd learn from all that, but later on, she meets Littlefinger in secret, and trusts in him to "rescue" her with the Vale army because she is so confident in her fascination to him.

The more I think about it, the  more I realize that there are deliberate parallels between Sansa and Cersei in the ways they have suffered, and the ways they have grown from that suffering. 

[Tikichick]

10 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Sansa has always just been fluff and filler to me.  I think I basically ignored her until last season.  I might warm up to her more now that she's interacting with Jon and putting Littlefinger in his place.  Arya?  Meh.  Maybe she'll grow on me as well as she finally matures, but I won't hold my breath. :-)

She had enough going on between the ears to attract the attention of Tywin Lannister in the role of mere cupbearer, which was likely the equivalent of a chair or a pair of boots in his world.  She also convinced Jaquen she was worthy.  What would demonstrate maturity in your book?

[Katsullivan]

15 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

I think your wrong, she knows he wants her, but she knows he wants power more, she's playing him until a time she gets what she needs to in Stark words bring winter to him, if Bran,Arya and the Hound all are in WF at one time or Bran alone LF screwed.

Sansa has misjudged/over-estimated LF's devotion to her at every count now. Third (or fourth?) time lucky? I guess time will tell. 

[stagmania]

2 hours ago, Francie said:

If -- and it's still an if -- this is the route the show goes down, it'll show just how dark Arya has become.  

I don't see any reason to think we'll revisit that scene at all. It was mostly a vehicle for a cameo, and next time we see Arya she'll likely be somewhere totally different. 

[FnkyChkn34]

16 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

She had enough going on between the ears to attract the attention of Tywin Lannister in the role of mere cupbearer, which was likely the equivalent of a chair or a pair of boots in his world.  She also convinced Jaquen she was worthy.  What would demonstrate maturity in your book?

...double checking that we're in the book talk thread...  Yep.  So she's a mere child.  I meant mature as two-fold - as she actually grows up, and as she becomes wiser.  Her plot on the Freys has shown both this season, but previously she's shown to be very immature.  For example, in the first season - running around the castle chasing cats, not listening to anyone in authority and defying her father, whining, etc.  OK, she was a child... but then more recently, I didn't like her arc at the House of Black and White; she again just showed her petulance and claimed she wanted to train, but didn't obey or listen to Jaqen very well.  So for her to demonstrate maturity to me, she'd have to actually listen to and take advice from someone older and wiser than her, and start making smart choices.  She might even realize that there's more to life than her revenge/avenge plot?  Maybe that isn't possible if she remains rogue and alone though, so I guess that's why I don't hold out much hope that I'll ever really like her much.

ETA:  Full disclosure, I watch her scenes but not nearly as closely as most other characters' scenes, and definitely didn't watch them on a re-watch.  So I might've missed a lot about her, but even from the books, I don't care about her.  Is what it is.

Edited July 18, 2017 by FnkyChkn34

[GrailKing]

9 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

Sansa has misjudged/over-estimated LF's devotion to her at every count now. Third (or fourth?) time lucky? I guess time will tell. 

Not from what I saw in 6-10 or 7-1 all she needs is one piece of the puzzle and be able to get Royce on her side.

[Tikichick]

3 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

I really wish this was the show I was watching because it would be so much more interesting than watching Sansa getting fooled at every turn in King's Landing by Joffrey and Cersei, then Margarey and Olenna, until she waltzed her way into a wedding with Tyrion. At least book!Sansa had the backbone to refuse to kneel for the cloaking but TV!Sansa was the good little girl that lay down on her own altar. She provided the intel that motivated Olenna to want Joffrey dead - then she got framed for her trouble. She thought she had an ally with the Knight she rescued, her "true" Knight - and he ended up being another of Littlefinger's pawns and she was delivered up to Mr. Pervert. Somehow between being sexually assaulted by him, and watching him murder his wife, Sansa concluded that he was her staunch ally and let him talk her into marrying into the same family who murdered her brother and mother. She could have escaped from that situation up until the very point of her marriage - yet somehow she convinced herself that her name was enough to protect her from someone whose House motto was "a flayed man has no secrets". You'd think she'd learn from all that, but later on, she meets Littlefinger in secret, and trusts in him to "rescue" her with the Vale army because she is so confident in her fascination to him.

The more I think about it, the  more I realize that there are deliberate parallels between Sansa and Cersei in the ways they have suffered, and the ways they have grown from that suffering. 

Yes, Cersei even filled in some of her backstory for Sansa along the way as well.  I disagree Sansa hasn't been connecting the dots along the way.

Sansa ran headlong willingly into imprisonment at King's Landing initially, but I fail to see how it was she could have gotten out of there any earlier than she did?  She thought she was going to have the protection of family at the aerie, but Aunt Lysa was out of her mind -- something her own sister didn't even know until Catelyn made her own visit to the Aerie.  Once LF had her at the Aerie she was once again imprisoned as much as at KL.  Her only way out again was LF.  She had no viable options but to go along with LF's machinations.  

At which point in this do you think she had any other reasonable choices than the ones she made?   

[Tikichick]

3 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

...double checking that we're in the book talk thread...  Yep.  So she's a mere child.  I meant mature as two-fold - as she actually grows up, and as she becomes wiser.  Her plot on the Freys has shown both this season, but previously she's shown to be very immature.  For example, in the first season - running around the castle chasing cats, not listening to anyone in authority and defying her father, whining, etc.  OK, she was a child... but then more recently, I didn't like her arc at the House of Black and White; she again just showed her petulance and claimed she wanted to train, but didn't obey or listen to Jaqen very well.  So for her to demonstrate maturity to me, she'd have to actually listen to and take advice from someone older and wiser than her, and start making smart choices.  She might even realize that there's more to life than her revenge/avenge plot?  Maybe that isn't possible if she remains rogue and alone though, so I guess that's why I don't hold out much hope that I'll ever really like her much.

She had good reason to immediately capitulate to Jaquen's request to kill the actress without second thought, yet could not do so simply for her own gain because she thought the actress was a good person.  That took both bravery and maturity in my mind.  The fact that she started the story we know as a child shouldn't mean that she's still that child, far from it, something she's demonstrated in many ways.  

[GrailKing]

11 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Yes, Cersei even filled in some of her backstory for Sansa along the way as well.  I disagree Sansa hasn't been connecting the dots along the way.

Sansa ran headlong willingly into imprisonment at King's Landing initially, but I fail to see how it was she could have gotten out of there any earlier than she did?  She thought she was going to have the protection of family at the aerie, but Aunt Lysa was out of her mind -- something her own sister didn't even know until Catelyn made her own visit to the Aerie.  Once LF had her at the Aerie she was once again imprisoned as much as at KL.  Her only way out again was LF.  She had no viable options but to go along with LF's machinations.  

At which point in this do you think she had any other reasonable choices than the ones she made?   

She totally a hostage until she gets to WF, in book she'll get there to bring the Vale and food, with LF, HH, Robyn?

Unless she is brought to Cersei, who I see a match in season 8.

That Time photoshoot hangs in the back of my mind, along with her telling Jon watch out for Cesei.

[Katsullivan]

13 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

At which point in this do you think she had any other reasonable choices than the ones she made? 

Off the top of my head - not marry Ramsay Snow/Bolton? LF told Sansa that she had a choice in the matter. Now you can argue all you like about how true that was, but the fact is that we'll never know because Sansa didn't take him up on that. Instead, he convinced her that she could "take back" Winterfell by literally going to bed with the same House that murdered her family. And Sansa bought it because she believed that LF loved her so much.

[blackwing]

17 hours ago, kieyra said:

I had to look up who Ed Sheeran was. I guess I don't care too much, because I loved it when members of one of my favorite metal bands (Mastodon) got to play Wildlings in S5, but maybe if I already knew who he was I would have been more annoyed. Both CNN and Forbes are treating it like some big deal. 

They're treating it like a big deal because he's arguably one of the biggest pop stars on the radio today.  You seemingly can't turn on a Top 40 radio station and listen for 15 minutes without hearing one of his two current big hits, "Shape of You" or "Castle on the Hill".  I like the guy, but I agree that I found his appearance distracting.  Mostly because of the closeups on his huge puffy face which took up almost the entire screen.

He seems like a sensitive soul, I had previously read that he quit Twitter because he didn't like to read criticism.  Now after this latest round of backlash, he apparently deleted his account altogether.

What's funny is that this isn't the first time he appeared on TV.  I must be one of the six people that attempted to watch "The Bastard Executioner".  He was not a big character but he appeared in half of the episodes, so it was more than just a cameo.  At the time of that show he had already had a few notable songs ("Thinking out Loud" and "Photograph") and nobody made that big a fuss about it.  Most likely because, like I said, only about 6 people watched it.

[SeanC]

4 hours ago, anamika said:

Then she should not talk about things she does not know. Does she know about Robb's decisions that destroyed his campaign? Does she know about LF's betrayal of Ned. Does she know that Ned went to Cersei and why? If she does not, then why is she pretending to have some great insight into Ned and Robb?

She absolutely knows about Robb's mistakes.  Everybody does.  Indeed, Lord Glover berated her for them last season, recall.

I'm not sure what she's referring to with Ned, since she shouldn't know all that much about what happened in King's Landing.  But then, that just shows that she's being given the writers' opinion rather than one based on her own specific experience.
 

Quote

Notice, how she is the only one doing it. Jon, Arya and Bran all suffered one way or another from what happened as well. We don't see them criticizing Ned as a fool or accuse him of failing to protect them. Jon holds him in high esteem and I am sure so do Arya and Bran.  Even in this episode we had Arya missing her father. The Reeds helped Bran because they were sworn to house Stark. Jon is king because he has Ned Stark's blood running through his veins. Winterfell is Ned's legacy. Sansa does not deserve the North if she thinks so low of the man who is beloved in the North.

The people who criticize Ned has mostly been LF and Cersei. Sansa now joins their ranks. Great company there.

Er, Sansa didn't say she didn't love Ned and Robb.  But we haven't seen any of the others opine on their political acumen.

Pretty much every political player in the show, including Tyrion, has criticized Ned (Tyrion specifically remarked "I'm not Ned Stark.  I understand how the game is played.").  The writers' view of Ned is 'nice guy, not very smart'.  I've argued against that in respect of the books, but the showrunners have been pretty clear on their position on the matter

2 hours ago, thegreathoo said:

Also, Meli, Beric and Thoros are on the list.

They're not, actually.  They were added in Season 4, but dropped in Season 5 without explanation.  Arya's list at that point consisted of Meryn Trant, Walder Frey, the Mountain, and Cersei.  She's since iced the first two.

Edited July 18, 2017 by SeanC

[GrailKing]

2 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

Off the top of my head - not marry Ramsay Snow/Bolton? LF told Sansa that she had a choice in the matter. Now you can argue all you like about how true that was, but the fact is that we'll never know because Sansa didn't take him up on that. Instead, he convinced her that she could "take back" Winterfell by literally going to bed with the same House that murdered her family. And Sansa bought it because she believed that LF loved her so much.

Nah, she bought it because of "avenge them"

A choice in the middle of nowhere is no choice, he would have went back to the inn and wait for Roose.

[Blonde Gator]

11 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

She had good reason to immediately capitulate to Jaquen's request to kill the actress without second thought, yet could not do so simply for her own gain because she thought the actress was a good person.  That took both bravery and maturity in my mind.  The fact that she started the story we know as a child shouldn't mean that she's still that child, far from it, something she's demonstrated in many ways.  

A book-ish comment:  Arya's first book kill was the unsavory insurance broker.  No issue of morality there at all. So I think you're onto something.  I believe Arya never intended to truly become a FM.  Rather, she chose to become what she is, an assassin bent on following her own rules.  Which begs the question, why did the J'Quen Hagar (show) character....a.k.a. the "kindly man"....allow her to continue her training after she'd failed by killing off-list?  That should have been a career ender for a FM-in-training.  Perhaps the Many Faced God is also in on the Great Wars to come?  It's the only conclusion I can draw....J'Quen Hagar was in the KL black cells, and elsewhere, for a much longer game, which has yet to be revealed.  The Faceless Men are in the Game on a much deeper level than we yet know or can comprehend.

[Tikichick]

11 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

Off the top of my head - not marry Ramsay Snow/Bolton? LF told Sansa that she had a choice in the matter. Now you can argue all you like about how true that was, but the fact is that we'll never know because Sansa didn't take him up on that. Instead, he convinced her that she could "take back" Winterfell by literally going to bed with the same House that murdered her family. And Sansa bought it because she believed that LF loved her so much.

Or did she not believe that it was her choice?  What happens if she crosses LF at that particular time?  She's out there alone with no allies at her side.  Who's to say the politics of the situation didn't convince her that her necessity to the Bolton's wasn't her protection?  She very likely believed that some vestiges of Winterfell and the North might come to her aid if she got herself back into WF as a Stark and the lady of WF.  

Why is your interpretation that she believed LF loved her so much to be the only possible conclusion?  That's never come out of Sansa's mouth on screen.   How can you unequivocally state that's her thinking?

Incidentally, LF "told her she had a choice in the matter"?   Sansa is stupid because she takes LF at his word -- yet that's precisely what you're suggesting she should have done to this statement, because it was most certainly true?

Edited July 18, 2017 by Tikichick

[Francie]

1 hour ago, Dev F said:

That's evidence from the book, though, and at this point it's pretty clear that the show is a different and often massively simplified version of the same basic story. I wouldn't privilege anything the book says over the evidence we've seen on screen, which has consistently shown the faces to effect a full-body transformation.

Though even in the books, I never got the impression that the faces were literal masks that simply changed what Arya's face looked like. Martin makes a point of the fact that Arya herself can't feel any of the changes in her appearance the face provides: "She probed around inside her mouth with her tongue, but found no holes or broken teeth." It's not a physical transformation; it's an illusion that causes other people to perceive her as the person the face once was, even though in actuality she's just wearing an unconvincing flap of skin. And considering that illusion is already capable of causing people to perceive her as having missing teeth and a broken jaw, it's not much of a leap for me to assume that it can also cause them to perceive her as having wrinkled hands or being a foot taller or whatever.

I mean, I do get the thematic objection -- why are they called the Faceless if they can change their whole body? But "Faceless" is just a metaphor anyway; the real point is that the are No One and thus can become anyone, which is just as true of a person who can change his whole body as one who can just change his face. The series has made changes to the source material much more egregious, much more thematically inappropriate, so to me this seems like a scorekeeping objection ("The books did X, so how dare the show do Y!") more than a meaningful beef ("The show did Y, which entirely misses the point of why the books did X!"). But maybe I'm missing some of the nuance that's been lost.

I was more answering the question as to why I didn't experience as much of an issue with the serving girl.  She fits in with my understanding of how faceless assassins operate; the Walder Frey impersonation does not.

 

Quote

And considering that illusion is already capable of causing people to perceive her as having missing teeth and a broken jaw, it's not much of a leap for me to assume that it can also cause them to perceive her as having wrinkled hands or being a foot taller or whatever

We shall have to agree to disagree on that point. 

If Jaqen H'ghar had access to Ned's body in King's Landing, I would not enjoy watching a Jaqen who looked like Sean Bean, talked like Sean Bean, and walked like Sean Bean.  Would you? You really would be entertained by Arya killing the Mountain, taking his body and suddenly transforming into a 7-foot-tall man?

Why would the Iron Bank ever hire faceless assassins to kill their non-paying targets? Why not hire one to kill and impersonate Robert Baratheon, for instance, and have him become more fiscally responsible and start paying back the Iron Bank instead of holding expensive tournaments to celebrate his best friend?

There is no story if someone with money can hire someone else to just magically impersonate someone.  That's where we part company.

 

Quote

I don't see any reason to think we'll revisit that scene at all. It was mostly a vehicle for a cameo, and next time we see Arya she'll likely be somewhere totally different. 

Either the scenario humanized her, and you're right -- we'll see a more understanding Arya from this point out.  So, the scene won't be re-visited, but we'll see the effects of it.

Or

We'll see one of the 3 scenarios:

1) People (Brienne and Pod?) stumble on the dead bodies, juxtaposed against a scene where Arya engages in more carnage;

2) Arya recounts how she was sitting and laughing with them, and then she cut their throats; or

3) A "Hey, don't I recognize him?"  Lannister soldier shows up at opportune time to try to kill Cersei, Jaime, or the Mountain. Turns out it's Arya and she stole Postlewaithe's face.  The Lannister soldiers became a means to an end.  Perhaps just like the poor serving girl.

We'll have to see which way Arya goes.

Edited July 18, 2017 by Francie

[Blonde Gator]

7 minutes ago, blackwing said:

They're treating it like a big deal because he's arguably one of the biggest pop stars on the radio today.  You seemingly can't turn on a Top 40 radio station and listen for 15 minutes without hearing one of his two current big hits, "Shape of You" or "Castle on the Hill".  I like the guy, but I agree that I found his appearance distracting.  Mostly because of the closeups on his huge puffy face which took up almost the entire screen.

 

Oh my!  I'm old, LOL, never heard of him.  But thank you, I looked up "Shape of You" on YouTube, almost 1.8 BILLION views!  Guess I need to get out more.

[Oscirus]

2 hours ago, Tikichick said:

IMO Walder's day to day position in his household wasn't particularly onerous.  We also have to remember the length of time Arya spent as cupbearer to one Tywin Lannister, watching, listening, learning the whole time.  So much so that even Tywin clued into the fact that his cupbearer had much going on between the ears.  With everything else Arya has managed I'm pretty sure "running the castle" was done without breaking a sweat.

I'm sorry but no. It takes a lot more to run a castle than just being smart and picking up things you see as a cup bearer.  And to keep that up for a couple of weeks? No way in hell?

[yellowfred]

14 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

Sansa has misjudged/over-estimated LF's devotion to her at every count now. Third (or fourth?) time lucky? I guess time will tell. 

I don't know.  I feel like she's wary of Littlefinger at this point, but I don't think she's entirely sure what to do about that.  Personally, I'm not even really sure what she should do with that.  Like, realistically, there's no good reason for them to ever speak again after he brought her to the Bolton's.  For all his supposed cunning, following his lead got her raped and tortured.  That means that either he's stupid or he doesn't care about her well-being.  Or both.  Either way, he's not a person who's judgement she should even listen to, let alone humor.

At the same time, though, for all she knows, Ned and Robb's leadership style gained them the loyalty of maybe two people in the North who weren't already dead, so it's not like she has a particularly viable alternative to the more southern way of thinking she's seen from Cersei and Littlefinger.  

[KaleyFirefly]

On 7/17/2017 at 2:12 PM, proserpina65 said:

Or Hodor, that would kill me.

*depressed realizing that Hodor and Summer are wights now*

[domina89]

So I'm a little late to the party (it took a while to read everyone's thoughts), but I just wanted to mention that I think part of the reason I was somewhat unsettled by the Jon/Sansa showdown was because of the way Jon's "court" is presented.  I know Jon is new to this, and Winterfell doesn't have a throne room per se, but Jon's 'throne' is a large table where he has Davos and Sansa seated NEXT to him.  Dany and Cersei sit on thrones and, even if others are near them, their seat of power is presented as theirs alone.  Because of this, it was jarring to me that Jon would object to Sansa voicing her opinion when his court is set up very much like a town hall forum in which everyone can present their ideas and thoughts, as opposed to a king on a throne dictating from on high.  Jon doesn't seem like he would be that kind of king, so the table throne suits him.  Glaring at Sansa when she disagrees with him, however, does not suit him.  I ultimately think Jon made the best decision, but both of them could have handled the situation better.  I just wish the writers would decide what direction they want to go with these two, personality wise, and do it instead of changing it up constantly.  

[Tikichick]

17 hours ago, Oscirus said:

I'm sorry but no. It takes a lot more to run a castle than just being smart and picking up things you see as a cup bearer.  And to keep that up for a couple of weeks? No way in hell?

Curious then that Tywin would ask her questions about her thoughts on strategy for the war.

She escaped KL with every resource the Lannisters had giving all they had to find her.  She makes her way through the countryside during the war with her wits, convincing how many people she was a boy, ends up in front of Tywin and Roose and does a good enough job to overhear in depth what's going on AND make a good impression on Tywin?  

Edited July 19, 2017 by Tikichick
Spelling

[Hana Chan]

Littlefinger's question to Sansa, about what she wanted was interesting. When she responded that she had Winterfell back and was safe, he continued to press her and asked if she was happy. That she didn't answer, and he kept pushing her to consider what would make her happy.

That was clearly meant to seed her sense of injustice, that she as the true born daughter isn't queen while her bastard half-brother is named King ahead of her. Which is why if there is any kind of real power struggle between Jon and Sansa, I'm going to side with Jon. Not because I like him better but because he's not holding the title of KITN for his own personal gratification. He's looking at saving everyone that he can, even at the cost of his own life. If Sansa wants the title for her own elevation and possible sense of self-preservation, I just can't support that. Not with all the scenes that we've seen of the (admittedly slowly moving) zombie army currently on the march. This isn't about "girl power" but about an apocalyptic endgame. Looking out for her own personal power isn't about self-empowerment of a previously powerless person. It's a selfish consideration in comparison to someone who is acting in a much more selfless manner (gender notwithstanding).

Edited July 18, 2017 by Hana Chan

[Oscirus]

Just now, Tikichick said:

Curious then that Tywin would ask her questions about her thoughts on strategy for the war.

She escaped KL with every resource the Lannisters had giving all they had to find her.  She makes her way through the countryside during the war with her wits, convincing how many people she was a boy, ends up in front of Tywin and Roose and does a good enough job too overhear in depth what's going on AND make a good impression on Tywin?  

I've already conceded that she's smart. Doesn't change the fact that she shouldn't know how to run a castle.

[Oscirus]

I think sansa still keeps little finger around because that last thing he said to her intrigues her.  Whether she cares to admit it or not, she wants more power.

[GrailKing]

1 minute ago, Hana Chan said:

Littlefinger's question to Sansa, about what she wanted was interesting. When she responded that she had Winterfell back and was safe, he continued to press her and asked if she was happy. That she didn't answer, and he kept pushing her to consider what would make her happy.

Which is why if there is any kind of real power struggle between Jon and Sansa, I'm going to side with Jon. Not because I like him better but because he's not holding the title of KITN for his own personal gratification. He's looking at saving everyone that he can, even at the cost of his own life. If Sansa wants the title for her own elevation and possible sense of self-preservation, I just can't support that. Not with all the scenes that we've seen of the (admittedly slowly moving) zombie army currently on the march. This isn't about "girl power" but about an apocalyptic endgame. Looking out for her own personal power isn't about self-empowerment of a previously powerless person. It's a selfish consideration in comparison to someone who is acting in a much more selfless manner (gender notwithstanding).

What will make her happy, LF head on a spike, she hasn't forgiven him for Ramsey, or Dontos, or framing her and Tyrion, she's yet to find out his biggest betrayal, when that comes ( and it will ) he's dead.

[FnkyChkn34]

10 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Curious then that Tywin would ask her questions about her thoughts on strategy for the war.

She escaped KL with every resource the Lannisters had giving all they had to find her.  She makes her way through the countryside during the war with her wits, convincing how many people she was a boy, ends up in front of Tywin and Roose and does a good enough job too overhear in depth what's going on AND make a good impression on Tywin?  

Actually, what you just listed here are more reasons why I don't care for the character - it's all too improbable.  She has the best luck ever, in a country where everyone else just gets screwed over six ways to Sunday.  

[GrailKing]

1 minute ago, Oscirus said:

I think sansa still keeps little finger around because that last thing he said to her intrigues her.  Whether she cares to admit it or not, she wants more power.

She does, but not in his way of thinking, hers is more control over her life, and Winterfell maybe, Queen no; family and safety yes.

[Blonde Gator]

10 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

I've already conceded that she's smart. Doesn't change the fact that she shouldn't know how to run a castle.

None of the Lords run their castles.  They have castellans and other employees to do that for them. They don't have to lift a finger, all they must do is hear/solve the complaints of their underlings, as Bran did in Winterfell after Robb left, and Bran was "Prince of Winterfell".  If a crippled boy can do it, so can Arya, wearing Walder Frey's face.

[tangerine95]

I can get why Sansa wouldn't be exactly happy.She is home and they got rid of the Boltons but Cersei is still a threat and they just lost Rickon on top of all the previous loss and trauma.Just coming home as much as she wanted it probably isn't enough at least right away and she clearly doesn't feel safe yet.I think they're trying to do a fake out like Sansa wants to be queen and resents Jon and that's why she argues with him but I don't think that's her true motivation,they're just playing it up for drama right now.

[Francie]

Quote

 

11 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

None of the Lords run their castles.  They have castellans and other employees to do that for them. They don't have to lift a finger, all they must do is hear/solve the complaints of their underlings, as Bran did in Winterfell after Robb left, and Bran was "Prince of Winterfell".  If a crippled boy can do it, so can Arya, wearing Walder Frey's face.

I don't think Arya even has the patience to walk around with that grumpy asshole's face for nearly two weeks. 

Edited July 18, 2017 by Francie

[britesongs]

Quote

We've seen no evidence that the dead rise south of the Wall yet.

Technically, Castle Black is south of the Wall and way back in S1, they brought back the bodies of a couple (I think?) of Benjen's scouting party and the wights reanimated and attacked Jon and Lord Mormont. 

Now, I don't think any dead person will automatically become a wight (the WW have to be directly involved, I think), but to me, that's proof that their power does indeed work south of the Wall.

[Raachel2008]

21 hours ago, GrailKing said:

No the King in the North is a separate title he is using WF but it's not his, he's Lyanna's son, not Neds, WF isn't his it's, Bran, Sansa, Arya and if Rickon didn't die his in that order.

But nobody knows Jon is Lyanna's son and not Ned's. As far as everybody knows, he is Ned Stark's son, and Winterfell is his, then Bran's, Sansa, Arya.

 

20 hours ago, GrailKing said:

I think Sansa see's both Cersei and the WW as problems,

I don't  think those who haven't actually seen the WWs can fully understand them for the nightmare they are. Jon and Tormund had a very very hard time convince the people at Hardhome; Loboda (?) didn't believe them, Karsi said she didn't trust a man in black but she trusted Tormund, and if he said that was the way, then she would follow him. Only when the WWs came the freefolk understood it, because they saw it.

The same goes for Sansa, Davos, the lords. They believe Jon  and Tormund, some more than others, but they haven't seen the WWs, they cannot grasp the concept of WWs as they should. So while Sansa sees both Cersei and WW as problems, she cannot understand the kind of problem the WWs are or that  they are a much bigger problem because she hasn't experienced it. Had Jon seen what Cersei can do, I believe he would pay more attention  to Cersei, but he would still think the threat of the WW trumps everything else. Because they do.

If Bran and Meera ever reach Winterfell, maybe Bran can show Sansa and the others his experiences with the WWs. Right now Sansa doesn't fear the WW as she should and she hasn't been paying attention to what Jon is saying/doing either: Sansa thinks the Wall will protect them, while Jon clearly thinks the WW can breach the wall, hence sending Tormund and the freefolk over there and worrying about the nearest castles. It is not her fault that she can't understand that the WWs means extinction or something close to that. She has to see it. Same for the Lords; had they seen the WWs, they would be giving swords and knives to all the grandaughters and greatfgrandaughters in the blink of an eye. 

 

10 hours ago, penelope79 said:

and maybe I'm alone here, but I had the feeling she was overall amused by his behaviour) and he promised to win her over by giving her a "gift". I'm afraid of what this gift could be, but if Euron gives her something or someone she considers essential for her needs, she will have to marry him and I'm sure she knows that.

I agree that she was amused, but I also saw some arrogance there, as in 'bring whatever you want, I'm not doing anything I don't want anymore, you litle fucker'. Cersei is so full of herself now; I wouldn't say she takes her new power for granted, but she is sure she will overcome whatever problems she faces.

 

18 hours ago, Clawdette said:

So Wun was present in Bran's dream but perhaps not in actuality. 

But why would Bran see Wun-Wun if he is not part of the WW army? I don't believe Jon and Tormund wouldn't not have searched the fields to burn every single body after BoB, including Wun-Wun and whatever was left of Ramsay. So what is the explanation?

8 hours ago, doram said:

There are those who privately feel that Jon shouldn't be King as a bastard and that it sets a dangerous precedent, etc.

Those were not on screen, nor at that room when he was crowned king. People forget that the tittle is Jon's, not Sansa's, and that what the Lords did was to throw away his bastard status.

8 hours ago, Tikichick said:

 

We already know that as far as Sansa is concerned, "nobody can protect anybody".  I'll forgive a gal for being aloof.

The word is trust, not protection, because Sansa can't protect herself either. She had a lot of people protecting her one way or another and helping her, from Ned to Theon. But just because they protected her when it suited them (LF, Olenna) it doesn't mean she should trust them. Ironically, the only person she can really trust there is Jon, who've proved he will do anything, including running alone against an army, to protect his family. 

ETA: Sansa trusts Brienne, which for me is bizarre, not because of Brienne, who is trustworth, but because she barely knows her.

7 hours ago, SeanC said:

The spectre of Aerys' madness is a deliberate theme in her story, so its on one level understandable that it comes up.  But Jon, who is also of Targaryen ancestry, never gets that kind of speculation.

But in the books it was never said that Jon is a Targaryen, and on screen it was revealed only last season and even so a lot of people didn't get who Jon's father was. So, the narrative cannot hint that kind of speculation wrt to Jon, because that would spoil who he really is. I think that there is another angle to that: the emphasys on Aerys being her father, and the direct lineage. Half of the time people say 'madness runs in the family', but the other half people stress that her father was the Mad King.

6 hours ago, Francie said:

The episode didn't even seem that much of a re-positioning of chess piece episode. They all were either right where they were at or where they were heading at the end of last season. 

I don't think this episode was supposed to re-position anything, really, just to lay some ground for the rest of the season, while sort of recapping everything to the audience. Same purpose of the scenes from previous episodes.

Edited July 18, 2017 by Raachel2008
I cannot spell.

[TaurusRose]

17 hours ago, Blonde Gator said:

And for now, not subjects of Cersei Lannister, First of Her Name, either....but you can bet she sent LittleFinger a raven demanding he bend the knee, or else!

Cersei is a moron, drunk with the perception of power.  I laughed when Jon read her message.  She wasted a raven because she has to know there is no way in hell anyone with an ounce of Stark blood would ever swear fealty to her.  As hard as I laughed, I'm sure slippery, double dealing LF would laugh even harder at a raven finding its way to him.

10 hours ago, screamin said:

Sansa knows Cersei (one of Jon's very important enemies) far better than any of the council does. She also knows Littlefinger - officially his main ally - far better than any of them does. It would simply be dumb to forgo her knowledge of these two important people who potentially could destroy Winterfell under the blanket assumption that Sansa is by definition useless and her input would always be of no value whatsoever...not to mention be a hell of a disrespectful way to treat your own damn sister.

Sansa better shape up quickly or I'm going to be calling for her head on a weekly basis. I've never liked her and this claim that Jon should defer to her because she has intimate knowledge of Cersei and LF is bullshit.  If she wanted to be helpful, she'd tell Jon unequivocally that there is a snake in their circle and back up the claim with facts, not cryptic remarks.  As far as Cersei is concerned, for all of her little rants and threats from KL (and Sansa's worry about what she's capable of), Cersei should be concentrating on the biggest threat to her continued existence, DT.  The fact that she isn't just proves she's a petty idiot.  The idea that she has this long scary reach into the North at this point in time is ludicrous.

9 hours ago, stagmania said:

Ed Sheeran is a hugely successful international popstar. I'm really happy for anyone who doesn't know who he is (seriously), but MANY people do and it pulled them out of the episode. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Count me as one who knows who ES is, enjoys his music, and wasn't particularly bothered by his cameo.  I'm more amazed that so many people allow stuff like this to "pull them out" of a scene.

7 hours ago, anamika said:

Which is such an idiotic notion to have for someone who is only standing in WF because of the long list of people who protected her ass -  Hound, LF, Tyrion, Theon, Brienne, Pod, Jon etc. Nonsensical statements like this is why she sounds like an utter moron who should not be taken seriously.  She even criticizes Ned for not protecting her! After she goes behind his back and tattles to Cersei. Shut the fuck up. He confessed to treason and lost his head to protect her worthless ass. Ugh! She's an entitled, condescending, whiny snob who thinks she knows better than everyone and is an ungrateful daughter to boot. Man, her criticism of Ned pissed me off so much. 

All of this.

Edited July 18, 2017 by taurusrose

[Blonde Gator]

2 minutes ago, Francie said:

I don't think Arya even has the patience to walk around with that grumpy asshole's face for nearly two weeks. 

I'm just ... this is how far the show has fallen so fast? Arya bumbling around a castle as a 90-year-old sleeze for two weeks? And no one notices? And we're debating about how feasible that is instead of just how stupid?

I'm confused about why there's such a focus on "two weeks", or the running of a castle.  Frey said "two feasts within a fortnight" in Arya's little speech (presuming he was made dead on the night of the first feast).  Walder could have taken to his sick bed, and tell his servants "NO VISITORS".  Meanwhile, Arya is running around as the servant girl setting things up.  It doesn't matter, really, there are a million ways to account for any time gap between Senior Frey and the Frey-spawn's deaths.   We're talking about magical abilities w/faceless men, and many others in this show.  Personally, I'm far more bothered by Baelish & Varys's Star Trek transporter than tiny plot holes. 

[GrailKing]

2 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

But nobody knows Jon is Lyanna's son and not Ned's. As far as everybody knows, he is Ned Stark's son, and Winterfell is his, then Bran's, Sansa, Arya.

He's Ned Starks bastard is what they know, Lady Mormont declared him her King, she and the Lords can't give him Winterfell.

As far as the WW yes, it goes back to if each were in the other's shoes they have different opinions it has nothing to do with not believing it's has to do with what they lived.

[Oscirus]

26 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

None of the Lords run their castles.  They have castellans and other employees to do that for them. They don't have to lift a finger, all they must do is hear/solve the complaints of their underlings, as Bran did in Winterfell after Robb left, and Bran was "Prince of Winterfell".  If a crippled boy can do it, so can Arya, wearing Walder Frey's face.

You oversimplify running a castle by a lot. Bran had advisers and people left in place to assist him, Arya has her intelligence.  Not even close to the same thing. 

Edited July 18, 2017 by Oscirus