Fix The Show

[MissEwa]

I didn't watch Survivor live when Miss Alli was recapping but I go back and forth on recaps adding anything to my viewing experience. A thing I did notice when I was catching up on earlier seasons and reading recaps/old forums as I went, is that Miss Alli's recaps really really shaped the overall forum opinions on the episodes/players/season, and dissenting opinions were *really* dissenting. I feel like now there are no really really unpopular opinions any more, which is a good thing, IMO, but it means when we talk about fixing the show, even in this relatively small subset of the fandom, what fixes it for some people is just going to ruin it for others. 

I wonder if maybe Survivor is having a kind of similar problem - it's constantly trying to fix itself, and the result is that it's getting all tangled up. 

Or... Honestly, I started watching Survivor at Samoa, which is kinda considered the beginning of the big decline (HvV aside). I've since gone back and caught up on most seasons but aside from the move towards stunt casting and a huge upswing in returnees, I don't know that there's a quantifiable difference. Yet, this season is the first time since Samoa that I'm skipping episodes, and I'm not sure why. This season is better than Nicaragua. It's better than South Pacific and Worlds Apart and (IMO, on a very small island) Cagayan. So I have to wonder - is it me? Is it less the show and more than when you're a fan of something for a really long time, burn-out (or at least periods of burn-out) is inevitable?

[fishcakes]

The question of added value aside, since I think that depends on the individual viewer, for my money, the best Survivor recapper was Joanna. She liked the show and didn't take it or herself too seriously.

[blackwing]

I am not a Miss Alli fan either.  I thought her recaps tried too hard.  She wasn't really writing to summarise the show.  She was writing for public adulation.  People on TWOP kissed her ass, and I fully agree that her opinion on contestants and what happened on the show coloured how people posted on the threads.  They were generally afraid to cross her.   If they liked someone she hated, well then, they were on her "list" and risked the warnings and bans that she handed out like candy.

I agree that here at PTV people seem much more open to posting their opinions respectfully without worrying if the great and powerful Linda would be upset.  Three days off.

I don't necessarily think the quality of Survivor and TAR have declined.  I think that the shows are old and established, and people now are more aware than ever of how to play.   The seasons of Survivor with returning players see multiple tribe swaps because of the tendency to come into the game with pre-arranged alliances.  As much as I hate to say it, the game has evolved.   People now seem to think they have to make "big moves" to win.

I do worry that people think the shows are stale.  We need some twists, and not gimmicks.   Somethig to freshen things up.  I'd be in favour of having a former castaway replace Jeff as host.  Someone popular and inoffensive.   Not sure who that would be, but I am so sick of Jeff.

Edited May 24, 2017 by blackwing

[mikewho]

Quote

I am not a Miss Alli fan either.  I thought her recaps tried too hard.  She wasn't really writing to summarise the show.  She was writing for public adulation.  People on TWOP kissed her ass, and I fully agree that her opinion on contestants and what happened on the show coloured how people posted on the threads.  They were generally afraid to cross her.   If they liked someone she hated, well then, they were on her "list" and risked the warnings and bans that she handed out like candy.

Bravo, blackwing.

[simplyme]

On 5/22/2017 at 1:36 PM, LadyChatts said:

Good times.  Now it's just so much about strategy and idols.

I misread that as strategy and idiots, which really has summed up Gamechangers well for me. There's only been one idol played, most of the game hasn't really revolved around them, but sheer idiot moves have taken out a number of people.

I don't know why I'm judging this cast so harshly. Maybe because they're all veterans? But I certainly expect them to know not to tell the other side the target of the vote, or to say something so unrecoverable and personal they get voted out, or flip at completely the wrong time and not realize that the other side won't trust you either and is going to tattle (Zeke, which got Ozzy ousted), or telling someone you have an advantage they'll get if you're voted out.

I felt like the general level of play was much better last season and they were all new. 

I don't mind people playing under the radar or a good social game. I don't mind Big Moves. I do mind stupid moves, and I feel like this season has been filled with watching people randomly tossing kerosene around and lighting matches, often to their own detriment. And really, by the time you've played Survivor two (or four...) times, you should know how to make fire without doing that. :P

[cherrypj]

I've got to wonder if it's not so much the game play, but the editing that's so off for this season. It's been weird and jarring: there's too many scenes where we can't hear anything, the chaotic TCs, too many unexplained moves, etc.

I can't heart @KimberStormer's post above more than once.

[LadyChatts]

I think the problem with returning player seasons is some castaways get into their own head a little too much.  They have an ego that they were asked back (even if they weren't the original choice or couldn't voted into a fan season), or a chip on their shoulder for how they played/were portrayed the last time, and I think there are those this season that truly believe they are the very theme: a gamechanger.  Pre-season alliances definitely ruin a season like this, and it seemed obvious that a core group had one and was sticking together no matter what.  Some returning player seasons, I actually hope to see these people a third+ time.  This season?  I can't say I really care to see anyone again, and the ones I do want probably wouldn't get asked or come back anyway.  I agree about this season being one of stupid moves, especially for some vets who made stupid moves the last time they played (looking at you, JT).  

My biggest issue with this season was the recency of the castaways.  I didn't care to see that many people from KR, or MvsGX, or even SC so soon.  The theme really ruined the season, especially with so many previews starting with "these legendary players."  Yeah, that applies to about 5 of them.

Edited May 24, 2017 by LadyChatts

[Lantern7]

Legacy Advantage: keep it. But instead of making it a transferable idol, have it negate votes depending on the stage of the game. Three at the early stage, two midway, one at F6. Sarah would've been toast if not for all that power.

[kikaha]

Once again F3 proves its value.  If this season had been F2, Brad wins almost for sure. 

[Daisy]

32 minutes ago, kikaha said:

Once again F3 proves its value.  If this season had been F2, Brad wins almost for sure. 

or. Brad loses the final immunity and it's Sarah. v. Troyzan.  I hate final 3 though. 
after watching this season. I am just going to say this 

One. you can only have one show. 
either ONE advantage. 
ONE Hii
ONE something. not multiples. 

Cirie got screwed. and people kept bringing up the ProD - but the thing is - people choose to go to rocks. they did in Marqueas. they did in BvV.  it comes up. People decide/not decide to let rock decide on whats going on. under no circumstances should someone be sent home who had zero votes against them because you have all of these stupid chinzy things valued up until final five. no way. By i'd say final eight? everyone except the person who wins the immunity idol should be vulnerable. 

[LadyChatts]

The thing about the rocks in Marquesas is, it shouldn't have gone to rocks at that stage.  But they weren't thinking ahead that, how the rock rule was supposed to work, can't work at the final 4.  Lesson learned by the show.  It may have taken them this long, but hopefully we do see changes with idols and advantages going forward.  Not eliminating them, not giving them special powers or hiding more, but something that makes it so a situation like this doesn't happen.  Rocks at least can be strategic.  It's taking your fate into your own hands and you can be to blame if you didn't come to a unanimous vote at least.

[simplyme]

4 hours ago, simplyme said:

I misread that as strategy and idiots, which really has summed up Gamechangers well for me. There's only been one idol played, most of the game hasn't really revolved around them, but sheer idiot moves have taken out a number of people.

Quoting myself to facepalm and say, "Boy, I should have waited to opine for a few hours until after the finale, huh?"

[LadyChatts]

You know what's interesting is I don't think anyone had any intention of playing their idols or advantages until Tai did.  It seemed like Brad, Sarah, and Troy were confident Aubry was going home.  Had nothing came into play, Sarah would have been voted out.  As soon as Tai stood up, everyone got worried.  

[Daisy]

12 minutes ago, LadyChatts said:

The thing about the rocks in Marquesas is, it shouldn't have gone to rocks at that stage.  But they weren't thinking ahead that, how the rock rule was supposed to work, can't work at the final 4.  Lesson learned by the show.  It may have taken them this long, but hopefully we do see changes with idols and advantages going forward.  Not eliminating them, not giving them special powers or hiding more, but something that makes it so a situation like this doesn't happen.  Rocks at least can be strategic.  It's taking your fate into your own hands and you can be to blame if you didn't come to a unanimous vote at least.

that's true. it shouldnt. but the thing was - they were still prepared to do this. 
What happened to Cirie shouldn't have happened (and thing was we've been saying could happen for years now - and it technically did during Second chances, just not of this magnitude). Honestly. and I can say this with a clear mind - if this had happened to Brad - while i would have laughed my head off because I hated how douche he was by the end - I would be arguing the unfairness of this. The whole point is that the tribe speaks. (or the person). or you decide to chance fate and take fire/rocks. 

You shouldn't go home because everyone found an idol/advantage and you didn't. and you still don't get votes cast against you (which. i might add. DAMN. my girl was in hot water and she still had zero votes cast against her.).  but i've been consistent. i've hated HII since Guatamala. I liked how Yul used it to save the Aitu 4 but i still "hated" it. In Fiji it was amazing  (because it gave me my favourite Survivor moment ever - poor Edguardo) but i still "hate it" and now it's just morphed into this thing like you can't make any move now because why split votes because now you instantly draw a rock and so basically you have to take this risk with HIis in the game that you really shouldn't. 

 

i don't think the game needs it. I never thought it did. I could tolerate it if it was one and done. and the "One" was in a place where everyone had a chance.  (like the legacy advantage). but i just think by the time there are eight ppl - it needs to be 

the Eight. 
The One immunity. and go with God. let the best player win. 

[Daisy]

Okay. My feelings on the New Final tribal Format. 

This is my favourite part of the entire season. Like I loved the final tribal portion - all of it, and it drives me nuts that it basically went from 45ish minutes (or maybe it just seemed longer) to what it was for the past few seasons. Because - this is where I think you can win and lose the game. (Up until Season 20 because almost everything else blurs for me) - I could tell you to pick a season and I could break down the jury performance. Even when it was bitter jury - you can still sort of see how the "person who should have won." lost. (Rob I'm looking right at you buddy). or how Amanda lost twice. And how Sandra won twice. Or why it was so damned close (Ozzy/Yul).. even in the very beginning - you knew Sue's "Rats + Snakes" speech was turning people towards Kelly where technically Rich had it smooth sailing (and Rich has said this many times he thought he lost because of Sue's speech). 

So when they cut out the closing speeches, this made me angry. and then when they've basically the last few seasons cut out the opening speech - it was like seriously? because I think that's so important and where you first start getting/losing votes. 

So to have this open forum of taking each aspect of the game and how it worked out/didn't work out what the players know/didn't know.... i'll admit. is really interesting. I liked it because Sarah for example finally got to say what a lot of us has been saying for year: Outplay doesn't mean winning all the immunity challenges. Theoretically, especially if you aren't such an asshat - you shouldn't have to be a dominating beast. Brad won five, but he needed to win all five or he was gone. That was one aspect of his game. Sarah outplayed him - not even socially (which she did) but knowing what to do and when to do it. 

Some hard questions came out (Tai's "Do you even know how you come off to people?" and Michala's "You're playing the social game card, do you now anything about me?)  - those I don't think come out with the standard. "This is me and my question. and i think as we move on if someone is a complete douche there won't be an Ozzy to go "durr, but he played hard dude so who cares?" because that matters.  

There was a lot of championing going on - I don't like that (I haven't liked that since .... I wanna say Dave did that for Russell in Samoa. oh wait. no. Eric did it and then Dave for Rob who didn't need it). it is not the jury's job to convince the jury to vote for the player. it's YOUR job. I felt the jury (Zeke especially) did a lot of early "Sarah did, Brad did." stuff. so I was glad that Sarah circled back and said. I was the one who put you all there I was the one who was always on the right side of the vote, I decided, because I thought you all would beat me so I beat you first. 

I think if the final 3 were allowed to speak. open up the forum, and then the final 3 close, it would be great. so I liked this first rendition. it was bumpy - but i think it works. I wouldn't be opposed to it for another two seasons, just to give it a real look. 

[Nashville]

34 minutes ago, Daisy said:

You shouldn't go home because everyone found an idol/advantage and you didn't.

I am in no way a fan of the current idol flood.  

That being said...

Cirie didn't go home simply due to lack of an idol; she went home due to a failure in her social game with Tai.  If Cirie hadn't succumbed to Big-Move-itis with her abortive attempt to call out Tai as a rat, she would have stood a helluva lot better chance of convincing Tai to go along with her strategy.  

Or Tai using his second idol on Cirie instead of Aubrey, to preserve a stronger ally.

Or not using it at all, which would have meant Brad's single vote for Aubrey would have sent Aubrey packing.

[Daisy]

Just now, Nashville said:

I am in no way a fan of the current idol flood.  

That being said...

Cirie didn't go home simply due to lack of an idol; she went home due to a failure in her social game with Tai.  If Cirie hadn't succumbed to Big-Move-itis with her abortive attempt to call out Tai as a rat, she would have stood a helluva lot better chance of convincing Tai to go along with her strategy.  

Or Tai using his second idol on Cirie instead of Aubrey, to preserve a stronger ally.

Or not using it at all, which would have meant Brad's single vote for Aubrey would have sent Aubrey packing.

probably. I'll admit. as a big fan of Cirie and not liking Hii's. i'm mad about this. this is why i was like if this was Brad, while i'd laugh about what happened, I'd be mad (on principle). I don't think Cirie was smart about how she went after Tai and that hurt her game and I think after this isn't fresh it goes into the normal. "Damn the game screwed her good." category. I just personally feel that Cirie got screwed over twice. She didn't get the a final 3 when it was final 3 for a while, and now because everyone and their mother gets an idol, she gets voted out while not even getting a vote. that just sucks for me. (it would suck again for Brad. I'd just enjoy it more ;) )

[Lantern7]

Alternative: only a certain number of players can whip out idols at any given Tribal. In this case, the only ones safe would've been Tai and Troy, and maybe Aubrey if Tai is allowed to play two idols at once. If the Legacy Advantage supersedes the process, then it would've been Tai/Sarah/maybe Aubrey. Once again: Cirie took the Immunity Train a lot better than I would have. Would've taken five guys to pry my hands from Probst's throat, and that would only happen because Mark Burnett wouldn't have been close to the festivities.

[Daisy]

10 minutes ago, Lantern7 said:

Alternative: only a certain number of players can whip out idols at any given Tribal. In this case, the only ones safe would've been Tai and Troy, and maybe Aubrey if Tai is allowed to play two idols at once. If the Legacy Advantage supersedes the process, then it would've been Tai/Sarah/maybe Aubrey. Once again: Cirie took the Immunity Train a lot better than I would have. Would've taken five guys to pry my hands from Probst's throat, and that would only happen because Mark Burnett wouldn't have been close to the festivities.

All of that. 
and I know. Cirie generally handles herself with a lot of grace. I wouldn't have taken it that calmly. with a sweet "ah well., the tribe has spoken."

[Guest]

On 4/29/2017 at 8:15 PM, MissEwa said:

I feel like this is a bit what BBB was supposed to be but then it got corrupted somewhere in the casting process. I think Survivors idea of what a geek is could go two ways - on the one hand, I'm sure Jeff and the other producers hold that terrible stereotype of geek as socially-defective basement-dweller, but on the other I suspect they think anyone with above-average intelligence and less-than-television-ready looks is a geek. Casting-wise, I don't think they'll ever go much geekier than Cochran or Stephen - nerdy, but still well-spoken and entertaining enough to make good TV. 

That bolded part made my mind jump straight to BB's Jason.  Ick.  I'll take the Survivor 'geeks' like Cochran, Stephen, Aubry and Hannah-- still good looking people with tons of humor and smarts.  

 

On 5/1/2017 at 1:41 AM, KimberStormer said:

Destroyed by Survivor nerds.  One of those "be careful what you wish for" things.  Luckily the TWOP boards are gone so I can't be mistaken for calling out anyone in particular but I don't know how many posts there were flipping out at the contestants for not hoarding their money for advantage at the auction.  So many angry whiny posts, "You ALWAYS save your money for advantage or YOU DON'T DESERVE TO WIN THIS GAME because YOU'RE AN IDIOT WHO'S NEVER SEEN THE SHOW and/or YOU OBVIOUSLY DON'T CARE ENOUGH!!!!"  That's how we end up with perhaps the most infuriatingly terrible moments in Survivor history IMO, Tony and Spencer drawing rocks or whatever it was to get Tony his millionth idol because of course he did, and now we don't get auctions anymore.  Y'all asked for it.  I have a very strong feeling that you will not enjoy the result if they do start starving them again like in Australia/Africa, either, but I know you'll keep on begging for it anyway.  Perhaps my bad mood (it is peak prom season so my job is miserable right now) is affecting my judgment on these matters, though.

Yes that was the method in the very old days.  I think it came into play in Australia, at the merge when Varner got out, I believe?  Because Tina at a previous challenge asked who the last night's evictee had voted, and Kimmi said it had been Varner; and Colby drew the votes on purpose because he had no previous votes whereas e.g. Jerri did...seems like a great strategic episode to me but I believe they changed the rules after that.

I think it was still in effect in Africa, because I watched that one a few years ago and noticed that cumulative votes thing.

On 5/22/2017 at 10:41 PM, KimberStormer said:

Not a Ms Alli fan, and I also didn't watch those seasons as they happened so I dunno.  Island-of-One material but any cult-of-personality Internet figure always gives me the creeps, and if ever there was one of those, Ms Alli had one.  Of course, I literally don't understand recaps and dislike them all, so my opinion is not really pertinent.

It doesn't feel like the show is particularly downhill for me, just maybe running out of steam as a TV show, which is not really anyobdy's fault.  It's not actually interesting to watch people making fire and catching fish after 34 seasons of it, much though people for some reason clamor for it, and that's sort of true of the whole thing.  I feel like the game is so solid, so beautiful as a game, but when it's played straight and perfectly (One World) everyone whines about how boring it is; so they throw in all these silly advantages and we all whine instead about how the game is being ruined and they have to go back to SEASON ONE REALNESS (because I guess Pagonging will magically become interesting again?)  We expect everyone to have seen every season and know exactly how to play (HOW DARE THEY not hoard their money at the Auction?!) and yet it also sucks when everyone's a superfan; we throw endless angry scorn at the Sierras for not flipping and endless angrier scorn at the Cieras for "playing too hard", we complain about "big characters" but we say "wait there's a Rick?" when people don't make spectacles of themselves.

Sports and classic games like chess take a long time to find a balance and equilibrium where they can last, and even then they don't last forever, and rules change -- my brother told me they're thinking of changing the 3-point rules in basketball, for example, because people are getting too good at shooting, and that the 3-point line was itself a later addition, the HII of basketball.  I don't think Survivor has the luxury of that amount of time, although I do think that the game is as simple, elegant, and close to perfect as any ever invented.  (Especially once they figured out the post-vote, pre-reading idol balance.  I would never do away with idols -- why even this season I was totally wrong to worry about them; the drama of the ladies worked itself out with no Troyzan idol coming out at all.)  But everything comes to an end eventually.

There is a big flaw in the model of "have writers moderate forums, pissing off their only potential readers, and then post articles and expect those same posters to read them".   It's no wonder TWOP is where it is.  And I would sooner read junk mail than recaps.  I saw the show, I got it without someone explaining it.  There are often good insights in there but they're typically buried in try-hard 'snark' and 'cleverness' and annoying in-jokes and unneeded summation.

1 hour ago, Daisy said:

Some hard questions came out (Tai's "Do you even know how you come off to people?" and Michala's "You're playing the social game card, do you now anything about me?)  - those I don't think come out with the standard. "This is me and my question. and i think as we move on if someone is a complete douche there won't be an Ozzy to go "durr, but he played hard dude so who cares?" because that matters.  

I liked the new Q&A format.  I was laughing at Brad's knowledge level about Michaela.  I guess to his credit(?) he had no opportunity to even read her CBS bio from her prior season but what he knew about her was like he spoke with her for about 2 minutes in 39 days.  

[Daisy]

1 minute ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

 

I think it was still in effect in Africa, because I watched that one a few years ago and noticed that cumulative votes thing.

I liked the new Q&A format.  I was laughing at Brad's knowledge level about Michaela.  I guess to his credit(?) he had no opportunity to even read her CBS bio from her prior season but what he knew about her was like he spoke with her for about 2 minutes in 39 days.  

Cumulative votes was Seasons 2-3. Rocks in Marquesas. :)
and that's what cracked me up. like. "okay, mr. social game. tell me what you know."  and Brad looked so flummoxed like. "You own a business! you went to school in texas." and basically it left it there, and the look that Cirie + Michaela gave and the "Wow." killed me. That's all you gathered in how many weeks? 

[Lantern7]

Before I go to bed: ease up on ending challenges with puzzles! I respect how that's a big equalizer, but lay off on them. Have players complete a puzzle, then do other shit to get the win. It's like if every episode of The Amazing Race came down to who got the best cabbie in the area.

[LadyChatts]

40 minutes ago, Daisy said:

Cumulative votes was Seasons 2-3. Rocks in Marquesas. :)
and that's what cracked me up. like. "okay, mr. social game. tell me what you know."  and Brad looked so flummoxed like. "You own a business! you went to school in texas." and basically it left it there, and the look that Cirie + Michaela gave and the "Wow." killed me. That's all you gathered in how many weeks? 

I was impressed he knew that much.

Troy knew he had lost, but I wonder when Brad knew the exact moment that he was screwed.

[Daisy]

2 minutes ago, LadyChatts said:

I was impressed he knew that much.

Troy knew he had lost, but I wonder when Brad knew the exact moment that he was screwed.

sitting on the stage. 
dude looked devastated. 

[NurseGiGi]

On 5/22/2017 at 0:36 PM, LadyChatts said:

May be unpopular, but I miss the seasons that started with 16.  I've been binge watching old seasons, and while I know they could care less about equal airtime or non strategy clips, it was great actually knowing everyone, and not wondering who this person is that's suddenly sitting there at the final 6.  Seeing camp life.  Watching them actually have to survive.  I watched Outback, and I loved seeing the Ogakor tribe wasting away and Jerri and Keith arguing over who was the better chef.  Meanwhile Kamp Kucha was living it up with Mountain Dew and chickens.  And they actually ate the chicken feed!  Good times.  Now it's just so much about strategy and idols.  That consumes the entire episode, especially factoring in challenges and TC (and depending how that goes, TC can start earlier than normal).  

Same here.  I really miss seeing camp life.  My first season to watch was South Pacific so I'm surprised I stuck with the show.  But the reason I did was because I binge watched old seasons and loved them.  It amazed me how little food they had and how important the food providers were and I miss that.

Oh, and have I said this before?  Please, for the love of God, either do away with the idols or at least make them difficult to find.

[Wings]

41 minutes ago, NurseGiGi said:

  On 5/22/2017 at 10:36 AM, LadyChatts said:

May be unpopular, but I miss the seasons that started with 16.  I've been binge watching old seasons, and while I know they could care less about equal airtime or non strategy clips, it was great actually knowing everyone, and not wondering who this person is that's suddenly sitting there at the final 6.  Seeing camp life.  Watching them actually have to survive.  I watched Outback, and I loved seeing the Ogakor tribe wasting away and Jerri and Keith arguing over who was the better chef.  Meanwhile Kamp Kucha was living it up with Mountain Dew and chickens.  And they actually ate the chicken feed!  Good times. 

I miss that, too.  That was the pivotal season for deciding to give them more food due to how it taxed them.  Ok, some medic called a halt to this extreme, got that.  Michael falling in the fire was probably attributed that to lack of nutrition.  The seasons that followed were not as bad as it has become.  There is balance to achieve.  

9 hours ago, LadyChatts said:

I was impressed he knew that much.

Troy knew he had lost, but I wonder when Brad knew the exact moment that he was screwed.

My guess is after several jury people's response, he caught how the wind was blowing.  He appeared to be bummed through the entire segment but we saw an edit.  

9 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

Before I go to bed: ease up on ending challenges with puzzles! I respect how that's a big equalizer, but lay off on them. Have players complete a puzzle, then do other shit to get the win. It's like if every episode of The Amazing Race came down to who got the best cabbie in the area.

The challenges this season were too similar.  I FFed through most up until the puzzle.  I will say it again, memory:  How well do you know your tribe,?  Remembering facts in a story Jeff tells.  Go back in time and review what worked well.  Everything old becomes new again.  

Edited May 25, 2017 by wings707

[Daisy]

These should be Survivor Staples. 
Challenges:

1: Quest for Fire. every season should have some form of Quest for fire. Fire is life. after all. I can't imagine the first tribal council with "Fire is Life" and that should be emphasized in the first challenge 

2:  Survivor Go Fish Mixer. this one is really fun and we've only seen it a few times. And you can do a LOT with this in regards to tribe swaps etc. I think it's a light-hearted thing

3: Endurance Challenge W/Temptation One. (we ALWAYS see this. but I think my favourite on is the following) - 
A: you stand up there and Jeff tempts you with things. (which always has iconic moments. Varner jumping off for Peanut Butter, Jenna/Heidi stripping for peanut butter and chocolate with Butch going "I'm not looking! I'm not looking!." It wasn't for food, but I remember Hatch singing "X Bottles of beer on the Wall" (and Colleen not knowing she had to win because they were gonna boot out Kelly). these things are full of nuances. 

4: Coconut Chop Challenges Slam Book Style. I think we'll never see this one again because I think one season broke it (I can't remember what). but this almost always screwed up someone's game ultimately. It can be mean. truly. but I think it also sheds light on people's games if you are paying attention. create a rule of you can't "talk" or something. 

5: Survivor Auction. Come on. this needs to be brought back. 

6: How well do you know me? For me -this is essential, especially when people want to claim they have the social game. Part of the social game is knowing their stuff so bring this back. (I think the Tom mistake + Veceipa having a book killed this though). 

7: Survivor Memory Game: it doesn't have to be about the Location, but do like a village or symbols. it works. and it's not a puzzle. 

8: GIGANTIC puzzle for final 5. the Vanuatu vertical one will always remain my favourite along with Cagyan's big turnstile maze. i LOVE this. 

9. STAND FOR A MILLION DOLLARS. I don't care if people stand out there for an entire day. that's the point of the challenge. (and just because Tom and Ian were freaks and did it for 10 hrs) doesn't mean a lot of people will. most people bow out way before that. I don't mind if it's the "Hold the ball" (Micronesia) or balance the Plates (china) or the ball chute thing (Tocancins). it needs to be something really simple. I prefer the endurances. (because you broker deals). but the Ball thingy worked amazingly because you literally let a million dollars slip through your fingers. 

 

that's what i can remember and miss off the top of my head. 

I do think this show is missing why it was a staple and it's the camp life. I don't buy there's nothing to see. unless literally no  one talks. and I feel a reason why a lot of people go "well so and so won X amount of immunities, so they should win." is that - that's what they focus on. but that's not what the show is based on (and again. I will forever love Sarah for basically telling Ozzy (and by extension, Jeff, to shove it that Outplay doesn't just mean - win x amount of immunities. If it did. Kelly Wigglesworth would have won Season 1 and I doubt we're at season 35 of Survivor). The show used to have a great balance and so to me either literally nothing is happening at camp, or they are cutting everyithing out to focus JUST after tribal, reward/challenge, right BEFORE tribal, and tribal. i'm betting on the 2nd. 

and even after some sleep, and some breakfast.  I'm going to say this. 
I hate how Cirie went out. I would have loved it (because I hate Brad), if that happened for brad but I would be consistent and hate the execution. Theoretically - I don't mind the immunity train. I don't. conceptually, I did like the whole Oprah "you have an idol, you have an idol." but from someone who has hated HII since the moment it arrived (which actually wasn't Guatemala. I can't remember now when we first saw a non Immunity idol, but I don't think it was Guatamala) because i thought it went against the premise of the show. 

One is immune. the rest better hope they were strong enough in their cases. Two tribes, one is safe. Three tribes, two are safe. 
Group of 13/10. 1 (or 2 if there is a double immunity), is safe. the rest are not.  While I've loved some idol moments. I think it's time to see my favourite clip again: )
 

And this 
 

(sorry I have now gotten distracted by laughing so hard. "It's the idol. There's a face on it." bwaahahahahaha). Oh okay and one more.
 

Those were amazing idol plays and moments and iconic. But i hate the idols. Even when they were overpowered (11 through 14) and i thought it was amazing how Yul could use the idol to actually save four people and take Jonathan and get his vote, and then use it to secure Adam's vote by voting off Jonathan - i hated the idol.  I hate it when it saves people/alliances i love. I hate it when it saves people/alliances I hate. this is an equal opportunity hate on the Hii. (and advantages or anything crap that allows you to be "protected" in multiples etc. 

And now - we get Cirie being "non-voted" (yes i know theoretically it would have been a "re vote" and everyone votes for Cirie), but how did we get to this moment. Jeff dropping the bomb DAY ONE (which was stupid) that there will be no more revotes. it would only go to Rocks and out you go. Basically, removing the one sure-fire way to 'blindside' a potential idol threat. Because you can't split votes. you can't even force a tie now, and go to a revote and boot out whomever. There was no real opportunity to 'flush' idols out.  (which is why you get to final six - and four people are immune). And I always feel i need to stress this. It's not just because it's Cirie and I love Cirie. it could have happened to Russell Hantz and I'd be saying the saying the same thing. That's not right (to me). I get it's the game now, but it's one aspect of the game i've always hated - despite iconic moments (which now Cirie will forever be a part of).

Have two seasons without any advantages (or make it a "classic" advantage, ie you can practice until dark, or you can switch spots with someone, something) and let's see if "New Survivor" can cope playing with "Classic" Survivor circumstances. If it is completely dull, bring back advantages and HIII. but only have two. ONE hii. ONE advantage. and only ONE person can have one of each (you can't stack). thats my best guess. 
 

[Special K]

This may seem petty, but I wish they'd let them choose their own clothes. I mean, sure, limit them to one outfit and a swimsuit, or whatever, and fine for production to approve whatever it is to it's not too weird.  But it gives me no pleasure to see them in tatters, suits, sweater vests in the tropics, etc.  I mean would it really affect the game if they could wear normal, athletic or outdoorsy-type tech clothes?   Like what they wear on TAR -- obviously production is involved there because they are often color-coded, but those are clothes that are suited to both the person and the game.

[simplyme]

1 minute ago, Special K said:

This may seem petty, but I wish they'd let them choose their own clothes.

But, but, but... then the young, female eye candy wouldn't have to borrow clothing from the males in order not to freeze to death! Would the game survive?

[LadyChatts]

I just wish they'd choose clothes that are practical for them.  Making Sierra wear jeans in Fiji?  

I'm going to again echo the comments about the challenges.  Puzzles are bad enough, but how many compass puzzles were there this season?!

[Special K]

59 minutes ago, simplyme said:

But, but, but... then the young, female eye candy wouldn't have to borrow clothing from the males in order not to freeze to death! Would the game survive?

I assume you mean Zeke giving Sarah his stylin' members-only jacket.  :)

[Wings]

I want the clothes they are caught wearing, at shove off, to continue.  That is a huge part of the original Survivor, they have changed enough as it is.   Smart players would/should make sure they layer inconspicuously to pass inspection, at every point they meet with production.  I think a reward could include some key clothing items (jackets, socks, shorts) along with a simple meal en lieu of a Golden Corral buffet.  They all bring bathing suits now, that was not always the case.  

[LadyChatts]

I remember during PI, they gave them a sewing machine as a reward.  IIRC, that was the first 'only the clothes off their back' season when they got tossed overboard.  Savage wasn't happy about having to take a dunk in an Armani suit, the first boot (can't remember her name), knew she was in trouble because of the dress she was wearing.  And of course, Lil's uniform.  Didn't Osten end up selling the clothes he was wearing for items for his tribe to take back to camp?  I remember Rupert stealing the other tribes shoes to barter with.

[Special K]

7 minutes ago, wings707 said:

I want the clothes they are caught wearing, at shove off, to continue.  That is a huge part of the original Survivor, they have changed enough as it is.   Smart players would/should make sure they layer inconspicuously to pass inspection, at every point they meet with production.  I think a reward could include some key clothing items (jackets, socks, shorts) along with a simple meal en lieu of a Golden Corral buffet.  They all bring bathing suits now, that was not always the case.  

Except the way I understand it, production goes through their bags and chooses the items they can wear/keep, even if it's very few (in the case of the young women), and usually with guidelines as to color family.  If production doesn't like what they've brought, they supply stuff (like Cochran's sweater vest, something he said he never wears).

[Daisy]

4 minutes ago, LadyChatts said:

I remember during PI, they gave them a sewing machine as a reward.  IIRC, that was the first 'only the clothes off their back' season when they got tossed overboard.  Savage wasn't happy about having to take a dunk in an Armani suit, the first boot (can't remember her name), knew she was in trouble because of the dress she was wearing.  And of course, Lil's uniform.  Didn't Osten end up selling the clothes he was wearing for items for his tribe to take back to camp?  I remember Rupert stealing the other tribes shoes to barter with.

Osten was stupid. That tribe went to their island with money left over. there was no need for Osten to sell his clothes. It was like that entire tribe thought they were going to go back to go shopping. 

[Wings]

2 minutes ago, Special K said:

Except the way I understand it, production goes through their bags and chooses the items they can wear/keep, even if it's very few (in the case of the young women), and usually with guidelines as to color family.  If production doesn't like what they've brought, they supply stuff (like Cochran's sweater vest, something he said he never wears).

Yes.  It used to be them wearing only the clothes on their back.  I neglected to mention that has changed and that is ok with me.  I just don't want to see them suited in athletic gear.  

[Daisy]

1 hour ago, wings707 said:

Yes.  It used to be them wearing only the clothes on their back.  I neglected to mention that has changed and that is ok with me.  I just don't want to see them suited in athletic gear.  

to be fair. clothes on their backs - started from season seven. and it wasn't every season. 
they have luggage etc for some seasons (remember in Amazon - most people's luggage/bags burned up in the fire)

[Nashville]

16 hours ago, LadyChatts said:

I was impressed he knew that much.

Troy knew he had lost, but I wonder when Brad knew the exact moment that he was screwed.

 

16 hours ago, Daisy said:

sitting on the stage. 
dude looked devastated. 

Agreed.  Keep in mind Brad's first external view of the FTC was watching the broadcast right along with the rest of us; I'd guess his internal perceptions of how well he'd done at FTC had collapsed not more than 5-10 minutes before the reunion broadcast began.  As I said in another thread, Brad was probably having a panic attack right before and up to the FTC vote reveal.

[Daisy]

35 minutes ago, Nashville said:

 

Agreed.  Keep in mind Brad's first external view of the FTC was watching the broadcast right along with the rest of us; I'd guess his internal perceptions of how well he'd done at FTC had collapsed not more than 5-10 minutes before the reunion broadcast began.  As I said in another thread, Brad was probably having a panic attack right before and up to the FTC vote reveal.

in the paper Brad said he knew he was in trouble when Zeke said he loved the cutthroat. 
Maybe. but i think it crystallized on stage. 

[Wings]

26 minutes ago, Nashville said:

 

Agreed.  Keep in mind Brad's first external view of the FTC was watching the broadcast right along with the rest of us; I'd guess his internal perceptions of how well he'd done at FTC had collapsed not more than 5-10 minutes before the reunion broadcast began.  As I said in another thread, Brad was probably having a panic attack right before and up to the FTC vote reveal.

Yes, I said the same thing (had to get that in ;^)).  He may have had a good idea he would not win after the group session but didn't anticipate the rest of it.  He may have thought he would be praised for his immunity run or given some positive attention for something.  It was brutal.  Even Troy was in the Sarah camp.  ouch

[simplyme]

1 hour ago, Nashville said:

 

Agreed.  Keep in mind Brad's first external view of the FTC was watching the broadcast right along with the rest of us; I'd guess his internal perceptions of how well he'd done at FTC had collapsed not more than 5-10 minutes before the reunion broadcast began.  As I said in another thread, Brad was probably having a panic attack right before and up to the FTC vote reveal.

I wonder how much was the FTC and how much was seeing the edit that showed the way he spoke to Tai and Tai sobbing? He had to have known at that point that there was no way he was winning.

I admit I was both angered at him and felt bad for him, because I imagine most people who aren't saints say things they really regret under stressful situations when dealing with people who have irked them. Most of them don't have their jerk moments captured on film, and most Survivor contestants have a chance to process their jerk moments in the safety of their friends and family and then issue a response. He pretty much had to see it with his competitors and the person he said it to, then face the public for a reading of votes.

I imagine seeing himself say those things was a shock to him, because often we perceive the situation very differently from a bit of distance. Like through a camera lens months later. No wonder he looked devastated.

[LadyChatts]

So Brad did say that he thought the immunity run would earn him respect and votes, but knew he was doomed when Zeke was praising Sarah's cut throat game play.  He did look pretty pissed when all was said and done at the FTC.  Didn't he have his back to Sarah and Troy when Troy conceded he out of contention and hugged Sarah?  It made the sulking even more adorable with the outfit he was wearing.

I wonder if he remembered how bad his tirade was to Tai (editing aside).  I know Sarah had said that she didn't remember the stuff she said about Andrea until it aired, so maybe Brad forgot how bad his behavior was.  This did film almost a year ago.

Edited May 26, 2017 by LadyChatts

[Wings]

20 minutes ago, LadyChatts said:

So Brad did say that he thought the immunity run would earn him respect and votes, but knew he was doomed when Zeke was praising Sarah's cut throat game play.  He did look pretty pissed when all was said and done at the FTC.  Didn't he have his back to Sarah and Troy when Troy conceded he out of contention and hugged Sarah?  It made it the sulking even more adorable with the outfit he was wearing.

I wonder if he remembered how bad his tirade was to Tai (editing aside).  I know Sarah had said that she didn't remember the stuff she said about Andrea until it aired, so maybe Brad forgot how bad his behavior was.  This did film almost a year ago.

I don't believe he did.  He thought he was in the right at the time.  And he was justified in being angry but how he handled that anger was terrible.  He was furious with Tai for agreeing to a plan then running to tell the others almost immediately.  I would have been livid, as well.  They all say you forget about the cameras and it is clear Brad did.  I bet it all came flooding back to him as he watched though.  

Edited May 26, 2017 by wings707

[Lingo]

As I said in the episode thread, I don't mind at all how Cirie went out. She was outplayed by not winning or finding an idol of her own (or forming a strong enough relationship with Sierra like Sarah did, or with Tai like Aubry did).

And in the episode thread I pointed out that the Legacy advantage expired at S6, so even if all 3 idols had been saved up to F5, there would still be at least one person eligible for votes.

However, it occurred to me today that there could easily have been a situation in which NO ONE would have been eligible for elimination. Troyzan saw everyone else play their idols and smartly, safely, played his. But what if he hadn't? Neither he nor Cirie got any votes. So there would have been a revote, with only those two eligible. Considering how the alliances lay at that point, the revote could easily have been a 3-3 tie. Then what would have happened? According to the usual rules, they would have gone to rocks. Except by the usual draw-rocks rules, Cirie and Troyzen would have been immune to the rocks because they had gotten votes, and everyone else would have still been immune because of their idols! So no one would have been eligible to draw rocks.

What happens then??

[Guest]

I am just disappointed with the pacing of this season, and with the reunion show. 

This season had too many shows that were just a challenge, then tribal council. That left me not knowing the competitors.  The reunion show had so much time spent on scenes from the show, commercials,  and scenes from next season, that the players didn't get to speak.

[LadyChatts]

9 hours ago, Lingo said:

As I said in the episode thread, I don't mind at all how Cirie went out. She was outplayed by not winning or finding an idol of her own (or forming a strong enough relationship with Sierra like Sarah did, or with Tai like Aubry did).

And in the episode thread I pointed out that the Legacy advantage expired at S6, so even if all 3 idols had been saved up to F5, there would still be at least one person eligible for votes.

However, it occurred to me today that there could easily have been a situation in which NO ONE would have been eligible for elimination. Troyzan saw everyone else play their idols and smartly, safely, played his. But what if he hadn't? Neither he nor Cirie got any votes. So there would have been a revote, with only those two eligible. Considering how the alliances lay at that point, the revote could easily have been a 3-3 tie. Then what would have happened? According to the usual rules, they would have gone to rocks. Except by the usual draw-rocks rules, Cirie and Troyzen would have been immune to the rocks because they had gotten votes, and everyone else would have still been immune because of their idols! So no one would have been eligible to draw rocks.

What happens then??

Somehow I think the show hasn't thought that far ahead.  My guess would be, despite being immune, either the group decides who goes home amongst everybody, or they go to fire.  Either that or they just let everyone go back to camp and the next vote 2 people are voted off.

I am just disappointed with the pacing of this season, and with the reunion show. 

Quote

This season had too many shows that were just a challenge, then tribal council. That left me not knowing the competitors.  The reunion show had so much time spent on scenes from the show, commercials,  and scenes from next season, that the players didn't get to speak.

Agreed.  The way Jeff was whipping through people at the RS, I thought he was actually going to get through to everyone.  But he spent so much time on the stupid 'if Tai was in the final 3, who would you have voted for.'  I've seen castaways say they just BS their answer anyway.  It's so stupid.  And what was the stupid thing with Cochran and Aubry?  Just to give him a shout out?  But this season especially, it was just the same stale formula, especially after the merge: challenge, scheming at camp, TC.  Nothing else.  They could probably cut back on their challenge footage by a few minutes, too.  Or maybe after the merge, combine the RC/IC to save time.  Of course that would probably mean more time for scheming...

Edited May 26, 2017 by LadyChatts

[303420]

On 5/24/2017 at 9:24 PM, LadyChatts said:

You know what's interesting is I don't think anyone had any intention of playing their idols or advantages until Tai did.  It seemed like Brad, Sarah, and Troy were confident Aubry was going home.  Had nothing came into play, Sarah would have been voted out.  As soon as Tai stood up, everyone got worried.  

It would have been lunacy for Sarah not to play her advantage; it was only good for that TC. But I think Troy only played his after four people became immune. I don't blame him. You wanna be one of only two people eligible to receive votes?

On 5/24/2017 at 9:48 PM, Daisy said:

So to have this open forum of taking each aspect of the game and how it worked out/didn't work out what the players know/didn't know.... i'll admit. is really interesting. I liked it because Sarah for example finally got to say what a lot of us has been saying for year: Outplay doesn't mean winning all the immunity challenges. Theoretically, especially if you aren't such an asshat - you shouldn't have to be a dominating beast. Brad won five, but he needed to win all five or he was gone. That was one aspect of his game. Sarah outplayed him - not even socially (which she did) but knowing what to do and when to do it. 

Sarah said much the same thing Katie said against Tom in Palau, specifically, that you can only play with the tools you have. I don't really have an opinion on Katie one way or the other, and she was doomed against Tom regardless, but I always thought she was unfairly criticized for that speech. She was absolutely right.

Despite the logic wheels in my brain telling me it's silly to read a recap of a show I just watched, I love me some recaps. I couldn't tell you why, but it may in some way be related to the fact that I can literally watch Law & Order all day every day and not get tired of it. I liked Miss Alli. I tended to agree with her on a lot of her analysis, and even when I didn't, I found it interesting. I wasn't particularly active on the TWOP boards, though, so I never incurred the wrath of which y'all speak.

Topic? I LOVED the new jury format and I agree that it should continue for at least a couple of seasons. It really cuts down on "My question is YOU SUCK" and my question is "TELL ME I SHOULD BE THERE INSTEAD OF YOU" and that sort of thing. Agreed that not allowing revotes made the idols too powerful. I get that splitting and re-voting makes the idol irrelevant and they don't want that either, but they still need to find the right balance.

I haven't thought this through, so I'm sure there are down sides I haven't considered, but what if it goes back to tie --> revote, but in the revote you can vote for anyone who's not immune, not just the people who received votes?

[Wings]

I just spent some time on youtube watching old challenges.  The simplicity was refreshing and more interesting.  Winning a shower (set up at camp) with soap, shampoo, toothpaste etc, thrilled them.   Winning a flint was huge.  It was a fun ride. 

The food auction could easily be fixed, I miss it.  Jeff says, this envelope contains the name of the food item that comes with a game advantage.   I will read it when the auction is over.  

One IC I liked was akin to the card game of Go Fish.   3 teams, all had boxes with identical items inside.  You asked someone if they had a bar of soap, say.  If they did you put your 2 soaps on a table and one point for your team.  It was fun to watch and all 3 teams interacted with each other, something we don't see now. 

We can talk until blue in the face and they will not change their trajectory toward more elaborate courses to traverse to reach the even more elaborate puzzles.  Endurance with no lure to jump off for food (miss that, too). 

They don't listen to what fans want because there are too many opinions and where would they find constructive critiques?  SM is full of haters and trolls. 

It appears they are proud of themselves for making things bigger and "better" (no) with the limitless twists and advantages.  They are all caught up in their heads and have lost the original premise.   sigh

Edited May 26, 2017 by wings707

[LadyChatts]

1 hour ago, wings707 said:

I just spent some time on youtube watching old challenges.  The simplicity was refreshing and more interesting.  Winning a shower (set up at camp) with soap, shampoo, toothpaste etc, thrilled them.   Winning a flint was huge.  It was a fun ride. 

The food auction could easily be fixed, I miss it.  Jeff says, this envelope contains the name of the food item that comes with a game advantage.   I will read it when the auction is over.  

One IC I liked was akin to the card game of Go Fish.   3 teams, all had boxes with identical items inside.  You asked someone if they had a bar of soap, say.  If they did you put your 2 soaps on a table and one point for your team.  It was fun to watch and all 3 teams interacted with each other, something we don't see now. 

We can talk until blue in the face and they will not change their trajectory toward more elaborate courses to traverse to reach the even more elaborate puzzles.  Endurance with no lure to jump off for food (miss that, too). 

They don't listen to what fans want because there are too many opinions and where would they find constructive critiques?  SM is full of haters and trolls. 

It appears they are proud of themselves for making things bigger and "better" (no) with the limitless twists and advantages.  They are all caught up in their heads and have lost the original premise.   sigh

I remember during Palau, they received I think 1,000 gallons of fresh water and toiletries (for a shower they had to construct), and there was an argument over whether to use the water to shower or save it and have fresh water to drink.  One of the things I miss is when they'd go and visit the other tribes camp before the merge, which they might have quit doing when tribe swaps became a thing.  I just re-watched the merge episode of Outback, and the ladies visited Ogakor, while the men visited Kucha.  Of course the men at Kucha thought they were getting the ladies from Ogakor and put on this big wine and dine spread, only to have Colby and Keith show up.  And since Mountain Dew was a sponsor back then, Elisabeth and Alicia took cans over as a housewarming gift to the Ogakor camp.

That was also the ep where Jeff blew his chances by jumping off the pole for peanut butter during the IC.  I also miss the temptations during the endurance challenges.  Why did they stop those? 

I agree, though, that things aren't going to change.  When Probst was asked about why he doesn't take time to talk to everyone at the reunion, and focuses on so few people for so long, he said essentially he talks to who wants to and who he felt made the season.  Which this time around, you could make an argument to talk to everyone in the back row, but last season, what was the point of acknowledging Rachel, Mari, and the other first boots that I can't remember?  I just think Probst, since taking over as producer, has it in his mind what he likes, what's stale and what isn't, and is all about making these great TV talked about moments that'll trend on SM.  I get the show has to evolve, but I don't know if he just has it in his mind what works and what's great and assumes everyone's on board.  And those who aren't are the problem.  I see him give big praise to the challenge department, but the challenges are so stale and alike.  Hell, they re-use so many anymore.  I think it also goes back to returning player seasons, and who he wants to see back, and who he doesn't, whether the fans do or not.  I know he isn't entirely responsible, as there's other channels at work, but just from interviews I've seen his arrogance kind of come through.  And the interviews he does give are with people so far up the show's ass that they won't ever question him if something isn't working. 

[Wings]

Yes, Jeff is the head guy now.  I doubt Burnett is involved much anymore if at all.  Jeff will do what he chooses.  He must get feedback from those around him but they are probably on the same page.  I bet many have not even seen some of the earlier seasons.  And if so they probably look back, in horror, like I do at TV shows from the 50s.