S03.E10: Lantern

[ShadowFacts]

16 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

There is a difference of death by self immolation and death by house fire. Pouring gas or accelerant on yourself and igniting it guarantees a painful, spectacle of a death. In house fires, the fire dept says that the flames usually burn an unconscious body. The death is usually due to smoke inhalation.

Chuck was defeated, he wanted it over. I don't think he was going to debate what would cause the most hurt or damage to Jimmy or to Howard, he wasn't even going to get out of bed to kill himself at that point.

I agree from the way we saw him crazily ripping his house apart, and being exhausted and in complete despair, that he wasn't undertaking any sort of rational plan. 

About the smoke inhalation vs. burning alive, in a smoky house fire I'm sure smoke inhalation does the job.  But in Chuck's case, it was more akin to self-immolation in that the flames were right there and spread very rapidly as we could see from the exterior shot.  I guess it would be known on autopsy if he inhaled smoke or not.  I don't know how fast unconsciousness to the point of being unable to be aroused happens, but that all looked almost instantaneous. 

[TVFan17]

6 hours ago, benteen said:

I think the Mike/drug aspect is the most interesting part of the show and it's the part of the show that has the most urgency.  Not that Jimmy's storyline isn't interesting but even Jimmy's storyline works better when he's in conflict with someone like Chuck.

Agreed.  For me, and for my attention span, the Jimmy/Kim/Chuck/Howard part of the show is interesting to a degree, but much less interesting to me than the other half of the show with the other drug story characters.   I like the danger, suspense and tension associated with the Mike/Nacho/Gus/Hector side of BCS -- which is surprising to me, seeing that I know where most of the characters end up on Breaking Bad and could easily not care about seeing backstory -- and I am so glad that one-half of the show is pretty much devoted to them.    Honestly, if the show were mostly focused on various who-is-working-for-whose-law-firm and how-many-new-cases-can-Kim-handle, with only a tiny bit of Mike/Nacho/Gus/Hector thrown in, or none of them at all... I probably would have bailed on this show in Season 2.    I wouldn't be able to handle it.   I am even starting to tire of Jimmy talking his way into things or talking his way out of things, setting up little scams, etc.   I was very tired of the Chuck storyline, and would have only had a renewed interest in him if he had ventured into totally new territory and away from Jimmy/Howard for a while.  

I watch the Howard/Chuck/Kim/Jimmy's antics portion of the show just to keep up with what is happening, but it is not my favorite at all.

If we could learn or see more of Kim and Howard outside of/away from the legal realm and find out more about them as people, I might be more interested in them.  It is sloooooowwwwly happening with Kim, where we are kind of learning more about her, but not fast enough.

[ByTor]

On 6/25/2017 at 9:29 AM, smorbie said:

Yeah, Mike bores me, too.

It isn't that Mike bores me; my opinion is more like what @benteen said about Mike's  "I know everything and everyone else is stupid" attitude...that, along with how he somehow always manages to be 10 steps ahead of everyone else at all times.  I don't even know if this attribute has been around on BCS so much, but it was there in droves on BB & soured me on the character.

[benteen]

43 minutes ago, ByTor said:

It isn't that Mike bores me; my opinion is more like what @benteen said about Mike's  "I know everything and everyone else is stupid" attitude...that, along with how he somehow always manages to be 10 steps ahead of everyone else at all times.  I don't even know if this attribute has been around on BCS so much, but it was there in droves on BB & soured me on the character.

Yes!  Mike's 10 steps ahead of everyone, especially on Better Call Saul.  Except at the end of BB though, when the writers have the character has a major brain fart.

My issues with Mike's characterization aside, the Mike/Nacho/Gus/Hector stuff to me is the exciting aspect of the show.  I like Jimmy but it's hard to find the urgency in his small-time hustling (like he did with those two music store owners)  when you have stuff like Nacho putting himself in danger trying to save his father from Hector.  Jimmy's disbarment hearing and his squaring off against Chuck was a truly engaging storyline I must admit.  Still, it's time to move Jimmy into the higher-stakes storylines of dealing with drugs and defending scumbag criminals.

Edited June 26, 2017 by benteen

[ByTor]

13 hours ago, TVFan17 said:

I think the intention at first was to have BCS focus on mostly Jimmy-related things with a bit of Mike thrown in, but, as the show progressed, Gilligan and Gould decided to develop the Mike/cartel side and bring in more of the BB people to help in that endeavor.     In other words, I think the show may be called Better Call Saul because that was the original title, but it is veering away more often from Jimmy/Saul stories and into the other section of the show -- which I am totally fine with.  

I think that they kind of have to do a split between the Jimmy/Saul and Mike/Cartel side.  The Mike/cartel/drug side is exactly what Jimmy gets into as Saul, so to me it would seem kind of jarring to focus so little on the drug side and then BAM here's Saul acting as a "criminal" lawyer on drug related matters.  It would be a much neater package to converge 50/50 storylines in the end.

Edited June 26, 2017 by ByTor

[benteen]

8 minutes ago, ByTor said:

I think that they kind of have to do a split between the Jimmy/Saul and Mike/Cartel side.  The Mike/cartel/drug side is exactly what Jimmy gets into as Saul, so to me it would seem kind of jarring to focus so little on the drug side and then BAM here's Saul acting as a "criminal" lawyer on drug related matters.  It would be a much neater package to converge 50/50 storylines in the end.

I think that's a very fair point.  Hopefully now Jimmy and Mike's storylines will begin to converge.  They had more interaction in Season 3 than in Season 2, where they barely interacted.  I'm hoping for more in Season 4.

[smorbie]

53 minutes ago, ByTor said:

It isn't that Mike bores me; my opinion is more like what @benteen said about Mike's  "I know everything and everyone else is stupid" attitude...that, along with how he somehow always manages to be 10 steps ahead of everyone else at all times.  I don't even know if this attribute has been around on BCS so much, but it was there in droves on BB & soured me on the character.

I bought it on BB because he's lived such a rough life.  But, I just don't want to watch him do it.

[ByTor]

21 minutes ago, smorbie said:

I bought it on BB because he's lived such a rough life.  But, I just don't want to watch him do it.

So in that sense, I totally get why you are finding his story boring on BCS.

[ByTor]

I realized I forgot to mention something.  In a prior episode's discussion, there was lots of talk about Chuck's house being a code violation.  Obviously, from this episode, we do see that he has an electric meter.  Am I correct in assuming he always had the meter but just kept the breaker off?  If that's the case, what would the violation have been?

[Dev F]

On 6/25/2017 at 9:29 AM, Christina said:

He figuratively burned down his relationship with his last living relative, figuratively burned the only bridge he had keeping him at the firm he started when he threatened Howard that he was going to sue the firm, and literally burned his house down after he lost control of his mental health. I get what they were going for with the parallels, I just don't think it fits with his character, think it would have been more powerful and meaningful to show him committing suicide in a way we would know, without a doubt, that he intended to kill himself. 

I dunno, I think the choice of method is pretty significant for more than the connection to his figurative self-immolation. It's meaningful, too, for the fact that this was the Chekhov's gun scenario hanging over the entire season. On multiple occasions we were told that Chuck's lantern was a fire hazard; the episode was even titled "Lantern" to drive the point home. So Jimmy wasn't just killing himself; he was surrendering to the inevitable -- or, rather, causing the inevitable to happen when it otherwise wouldn't have. Like I said earlier in the thread, it was the dark mirror of the "Chuck is patient and deliberate" / "Jimmy is impatient and reckless" dichotomy established at the beginning of the season -- Chuck destroying himself, step by laborious step, by being too sure of where his life was headed.

It's the point of the opening flashback, as well -- little Jimmy asking, What's gonna happen? How can you know? while Chuck reassures him that everything is definitely gonna work out and he just has to wait for it. And there's the lantern blazing away in the background . . .

9 hours ago, ByTor said:

It isn't that Mike bores me; my opinion is more like what @benteen said about Mike's  "I know everything and everyone else is stupid" attitude...that, along with how he somehow always manages to be 10 steps ahead of everyone else at all times.  I don't even know if this attribute has been around on BCS so much, but it was there in droves on BB & soured me on the character.

Now that I think about it, though, this season sort of ended up being about the potential downside of that "ten steps ahead" kind of thinking, for Mike as well as for Chuck. Early in the season, Mike's scenes are also about how he's so much more patient and clear-eyed than Jimmy, who stumbles around like a wrecking ball and screws up Mike's attempt to get the goods on Gus. But in the end, what's more destructive, charging around so fecklessly that you have no idea what's going on, or being so obsessed with seeing all the angles that you end up entangling yourself with a scary dangerous man like Gus Fring?

And it's not just an obsession with knowing who's after him that ends up chaining him to Gus; Mike ensnares himself further because he can't abide the notion that some other family won't be able to see clearly to the end, that they won't ever know what happened to the Good Samaritan he got killed. And from there he realizes that he can't bear to leave his own family with an unresolved ending -- that he has to have a nest egg waiting to provide them with closure if something ever happens to him. And that, finally, leads him to Lydia -- who on Breaking Bad was the ultimate example of someone so obsessed with having every contingency planned out that it totally destroyed her.

And, unlike Chuck, Mike's storyline ends not with inevitability but with irony. After his season-long pursuit of clarity and closure, Lydia informs him that he's found neither one: "Drug dealer? If that's all you think he is, then you don't know Gustavo Fring."

[smorbie]

14 hours ago, ByTor said:

I realized I forgot to mention something.  In a prior episode's discussion, there was lots of talk about Chuck's house being a code violation.  Obviously, from this episode, we do see that he has an electric meter.  Am I correct in assuming he always had the meter but just kept the breaker off?  If that's the case, what would the violation have been?

There's one shot where the fire department (?) or the paramedics (?) or someone looks in and sees he's disconnected all the wires from the electrical box in the house and they are just splayed out in all directions against the wall.

Also, I do think it's a code violation in some areas not to have electricity in the house.

[Tikichick]

You won't get a certificate of occupancy without functioning utilities.

[smorbie]

16 hours ago, ByTor said:

So in that sense, I totally get why you are finding his story boring on BCS.

I wouldn't have tuned in to a show called Better Call Mike or The Doin's of Gus Fring and his Band of Baddies.  I'm interested in Jimmy/Saul.  As far as his story intersecting with theirs, that would be fine.  But the minutia of the cartel and the machinations of Mike are just not that interesting to me.

I don't like crime shows and I'm not interested, in general, in gangs or drug running, so....

[Clanstarling]

1 minute ago, smorbie said:

I wouldn't have tuned in to a show called Better Call Mike or The Doin's of Gus Fring and his Band of Baddies.  I'm interested in Jimmy/Saul.  As far as his story intersecting with theirs, that would be fine.  But the minutia of the cartel and the machinations of Mike are just not that interesting to me.

I don't like crime shows and I'm not interested, in general, in gangs or drug running, so....

Generally speaking, I do not like organized crime stories, drug stories in particular. However, BB and this show are exceptions.

I initially did not watch Breaking Bad for that very reason. But my husband wanted to watch it, and I grew to love the complexity of the characters. I wasn't particularly interested in Saul either, and though him an odd character to choose for a prequel, but I got hooked on the first episode. Mike and Jimmy's paths are inextricably entwined, and I like Mike (and probably would have watched a Mike based prequel), so I find his path to the dark(er) side fascinating too.

[Tikichick]

1 minute ago, Clanstarling said:

Generally speaking, I do not like organized crime stories, drug stories in particular. However, BB and this show are exceptions.

I initially did not watch Breaking Bad for that very reason. But my husband wanted to watch it, and I grew to love the complexity of the characters. I wasn't particularly interested in Saul either, and though him an odd character to choose for a prequel, but I got hooked on the first episode. Mike and Jimmy's paths are inextricably entwined, and I like Mike (and probably would have watched a Mike based prequel), so I find his path to the dark(er) side fascinating too.

I enjoy some crime stories and I did enjoy Breaking Bad -- although I have to confess it became a bit of a chore in a certain sense after a certain point simply because I've now realized it was stressing me out.  Only great acting and writing could have kept me in at that point.  BCS is what made the lightbulb go on for me to recognize the BB story became too intense for me, Hector, the twins, Don Elladio bring all the anxiety flooding back.  Gus seems like a pretty reasonable character right now -- but this time I know not to fall for it.  

I honestly tuned into BCS with a hairy eyeball, because I honestly couldn't see how they were going to create an entire series I would want to watch around Saul.  Saul?  I didn't particularly care for Saul one bit on BB.   BCS is absolutely not the series I expected them to make regarding the character.  I am delighted I was so very wrong.  IMO the writers and producers have upped their game from BB, which was an incredibly well done series. 

[ByTor]

43 minutes ago, smorbie said:

Also, I do think it's a code violation in some areas not to have electricity in the house.

I know it's been discussed that this is true in many areas, but when you have an electric meter you do have electricity; I don't know what code would be violated if you yourself choose to not turn it on.  Of course wires being splayed in all directions is a whole different unsafe story!

I did like Saul on BB, but I wasn't sure how interesting a show about him would be, but I am enjoying the hell out of BCS .  Honestly, I loved BB so much & found the characters, even ones I didn't like, fascinating.  I'd probably enjoy the hell out of a prequel based on any of them, with the exception of Lydia, who did nothing for me on BB except annoy me, and Todd & the whole neo-Nazi crew.

Edited June 27, 2017 by ByTor

[smorbie]

24 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

I didn't particularly care for Saul one bit on BB

I thought he was a hoot, myself.  I've enjoyed the psychology of his story.  

[smorbie]

2 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

Generally speaking, I do not like organized crime stories, drug stories in particular. However, BB and this show are exceptions.

I initially did not watch Breaking Bad for that very reason. But my husband wanted to watch it, and I grew to love the complexity of the characters. I wasn't particularly interested in Saul either, and though him an odd character to choose for a prequel, but I got hooked on the first episode. Mike and Jimmy's paths are inextricably entwined, and I like Mike (and probably would have watched a Mike based prequel), so I find his path to the dark(er) side fascinating too.

I was intrigued by BB because of the psychology of watching a man with a terminal disease wrestle with his humanity and his turn to the dark side.  That's why I tuned in.  I stayed to watch because that was fascinating to me, to watch him blow up family again and again, and still double down on what he was doing.  

I found the family dynamics very interesting as well.

And the story was extraordinarily well written and very intricate.  It really was must-see TV.

But, even with that, as I've said before, the cartel stuff was never interesting to me.  I never pined to know more about Gus' history or Mike's hobbies.  

It's been really interesting to read about how so many of you really care about all that and are totally uninterested in the facets of BCS that fascinate me.  Many people on here are bored to the point of suicide by the very things that kept me tuning in week after week.

Edited June 27, 2017 by smorbie

[ShadowFacts]

1 hour ago, ByTor said:

I know it's been discussed that this is true in many areas, but when you have an electric meter you do have electricity; I don't know what code would be violated if you yourself choose to not turn it on.  Of course wires being splayed in all directions is a whole different unsafe story!

I think the rationale of requiring working electricity in residential areas is that using open flames for light and heat are not only a danger to a homeowner, but the neighboring structures and people are at risk when a fire occurs.  In other words, you can choose to accept that risk for yourself but not for other people.  It's different than in a more remote place where electricity isn't even available and there aren't close neighbors.

[ByTor]

19 minutes ago, smorbie said:

It's been really interesting to read about how so many of you really care about all that and are totally uninterested in the facets of BCS that fascinate me.

I guess I'm lucky in that I'm fascinated by both :)

[rue721]

Mike's attitude has always rubbed me the wrong way (on BB as well as BCS). I don't find him particularly likeable, but I like that he's on the show and enjoy him in small doses. His evolution as a hit man is sort of interesting to watch, and I'm especially interested in how nurturing he is with Kaylee considering that he thinks he "broke" his son/her father. But if he's not interacting with Kaylee or with another character who I find interesting (like Nacho or Pryce or Jimmy), I zone out. The whole thing with the gas caps was lost on me because I just kept getting distracted. I didn't even remember him tearing apart the car!

A lot of the characters associated with the drug biz on this show are just great, interesting characters in their own right, though, so even though I don't find the drug stuff that interesting, I enjoy those storylines for the characters in them. Nacho and Fring are both fascinating IMO. I've especially loved the few scenes between Nacho and his father that we've gotten.

One loose end that will be interesting to see picked up again IMO is to find out what Fring's opinion is of Nacho and how he wants to handle him now (after seeing him try to take out Hector with the pills). In general, it seems like each character sees Nacho so differently and wants such different things from him. It's fascinating IMO to see how his father sees him v. how Hector sees him v. how Tuco sees him v. how Mike sees him v. how Pryce sees him -- Nacho is kind of an enigma in the sense that it seems like nobody within the show has a real grip on who he is. Fring can be such an enigma, too, that I think it'll be great to see them interact more.

2 hours ago, smorbie said:

I thought he was a hoot, myself.  I've enjoyed the psychology of his story.  

What I liked about Saul on BB was that he was always hustling. Always trying to find a new solution, a new angle, and his wheels were always turning. He was obviously a very bright guy (and a little unhinged), so you could count on him to have an interesting take on any situation. And I also liked how relentlessly practical and down to earth he was. That was a nice contrast to Jesse, who was constantly threatening to dissolve into a puddle of angst, and Walt, who was so drunk on his own egoism that he was absolutely crazed.

Also, despite myself, I genuinely liked Saul's sense of style. His Gotham City outfits that were perfect right down to the iridescent green silk handkerchiefs and argyle socks. The Constitution wallpaper, faux columns, and hideous "law" tchotchkes that actually did warm up his office. His gorgeous "I made it" Cadillac. That he plastered "lawyer" on everything possible -- his license plate, his coffee mug, bus stop benches, whatever. He had low-rent chic down to a science! I mean, you're talking to a girl who spent some formative years in Baltimore, so of course I find Saul very charming and homey ;)

But the thing about Saul that I think made it difficult to feel all that strongly about him (either to love him or hate him), is that he was ultimately just a persona. It was really hard to get a read on (let alone connect with) the person who might have been under that. Saul was even very frank about it being a persona -- he told Walt within minutes of meeting him and before he even knew *Walt's* real name. And even though it's possible to see a lot of Jimmy in Saul, they're not the same person, and Saul of all people was clear about that.

Which makes it even more interesting that Gene carved "SG was here" into the wall paint when he got stuck in the trash room in Nebraska!

[ShadowFacts]

45 minutes ago, rue721 said:

One loose end that will be interesting to see picked up again IMO is to find out what Fring's opinion is of Nacho and how he wants to handle him now (after seeing him try to take out Hector with the pills). In general, it seems like each character sees Nacho so differently and wants such different things from him. It's fascinating IMO to see how his father sees him v. how Hector sees him v. how Tuco sees him v. how Mike sees him v. how Pryce sees him -- Nacho is kind of an enigma in the sense that it seems like nobody within the show has a real grip on who he is. Fring can be such an enigma, too, that I think it'll be great to see them interact more.

My thought about how Gus will view Nacho is that he will be wary of him, if he's smart and he's presented as very smart.  How do you trust someone who's trying to take out their boss, even if you hate their boss, too?  That's the thing with these guys, they're always killing each other.

47 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Also, despite myself, I genuinely liked Saul's sense of style. His Gotham City outfits that were perfect right down to the iridescent green silk handkerchiefs and argyle socks. The Constitution wallpaper, faux columns, and hideous "law" tchotchkes that actually did warm up his office. His gorgeous "I made it" Cadillac. That he plastered "lawyer" on everything possible -- his license plate, his coffee mug, bus stop benches, whatever. He had low-rent chic down to a science! I mean, you're talking to a girl who spent some formative years in Baltimore, so of course I find Saul very charming and homey ;)

What happened to all those vibrant colored shirts Jimmy bought awhile ago?  When's he getting back to all that?  He did wear the Matlock suit when he was working with the Sandpiper crowd, but then he backed off.  I can't even remember what he's been wearing lately so it must be bland. 

[Jextella]

8 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

What happened to all those vibrant colored shirts Jimmy bought awhile ago?  When's he getting back to all that?  He did wear the Matlock suit when he was working with the Sandpiper crowd, but then he backed off.  I can't even remember what he's been wearing lately so it must be bland. 

I think he was in all-white when he met Kim at the hospital (like an angel :).

Chuck was generally in gray or black.  Kim and Howard in blue. Nacho is often in red.  Jimmy seems to jump around a bit.

[rue721]

Just now, ShadowFacts said:

What happened to all those vibrant colored shirts Jimmy bought awhile ago?  When's he getting back to all that?  He did wear the Matlock suit when he was working with the Sandpiper crowd, but then he backed off.  I can't even remember what he's been wearing lately so it must be bland. 

Since he's been suspended, he's worn a few "costumes":  the chair yoga getup (complete with layered sweatpants), the Matlock suit for calling BINGO, the mall walker velour suit (ironically, maybe the most fashionable thing he's worn on the show so far, given that those were BIG back in '03!), the Saul-Goodman-Director-for-Hire safari outfit...

Most of the time, he's been in really unflattering, tight, dated-looking casual clothes, though. They look so blah and out of style they might well be from way back when he was living in Cisero.

Oh, except for his American Samoa "packing up the office" sweatshirt. It tugs on my heartstrings that he'd wear his law school sweatshirt to mothball the office. Like, don't worry, Jimmy, you ARE still a lawyer. Your sweatshirt even says so! You'll bounce back!

7 minutes ago, Jextella said:

I think he was in all-white when he met Kim at the hospital (like an angel :).

Chuck was generally in gray or black.  Kim and Howard in blue. Nacho is often in red.  Jimmy seems to jump around a bit.

He was wearing the white Matlock suit at the hospital (did not even think of the angel idea!). On both BB and this show, I think white is symbolic of death (at least the death of an identity) a lot of the time, so it was pretty appropriate.

To me, it seems like Jimmy wears a lot of brown/tan/beige if he's not in a "getup." But he does jump around a lot, too, so it's pretty hard to say.

[smorbie]

32 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

My thought about how Gus will view Nacho is that he will be wary of him, if he's smart and he's presented as very smart.  How do you trust someone who's trying to take out their boss, even if you hate their boss, too?  That's the thing with these guys, they're always killing each other.

What happened to all those vibrant colored shirts Jimmy bought awhile ago?  When's he getting back to all that?  He did wear the Matlock suit when he was working with the Sandpiper crowd, but then he backed off.  I can't even remember what he's been wearing lately so it must be bland. 

I'm just going to be honest; I loved the colored suits.  Yes, they were garish, an "optical migraine".  But they were imaginative and alive.  I was the kid who used every crayon in the box and never, ever cared whether it was the "right" color for the picture.  I like colors.  I would paint my apartment like a Dr. Suess house if I could get away with it.  Beige and gray and neutrals are boring.

[MaryPatShelby]

8 hours ago, smorbie said:

I was intrigued by BB because of the psychology of watching a man with a terminal disease wrestle with his humanity and his turn to the dark side.  That's why I tuned in.  I stayed to watch because that was fascinating to me, to watch him blow up family again and again, and still double down on what he was doing.  

I found the family dynamics very interesting as well.

And the story was extraordinarily well written and very intricate.  It really was must-see TV.

But, even with that, as I've said before, the cartel stuff was never interesting to me.  I never pined to know more about Gus' history or Mike's hobbies.  

It's been really interesting to read about how so many of you really care about all that and are totally uninterested in the facets of BCS that fascinate me.  Many people on here are bored to the point of suicide by the very things that kept me tuning in week after week.

I would heart this post a hundred times if I could. You took my exact thoughts right out of my head.  The only thing I will add is that I, personally, don't want any part of future seasons to be about Lydia.  I didn't care all that much about her in BB, and I, personally, don't care anything about her backstory.  But that's probably just me.

[smorbie]

2 minutes ago, MaryPatShelby said:

I would heart this post a hundred times if I could. You took my exact thoughts right out of my head.  The only thing I will add is that I, personally, don't want any part of future seasons to be about Lydia.  I didn't care all that much about her in BB, and I, personally, don't care anything about her backstory.  But that's probably just me.

She's part of the whole cartel thing, so I'm not interested in her, either.  And she's the only human I've ever seen that I really wanted to step on like a cockroach.

[Irlandesa]

12 hours ago, ByTor said:

I guess I'm lucky in that I'm fascinated by both :)

I like both sides as well.  Albeit, not equally. I do think I have more of a preference for the Jimmy/Kim/Chuck/Howard side of things.

I think, for me, it's because the Jimmy/Kim/Chuck/Howard side of things held more of a mystery to me.  Just like Walter White, we know where Saul is going but don't know how he will get there.  Since neither Kim, Chuck or Howard is involved with Breaking Bad, there is/was some mystery about their fates.  Where are they during that time?  How does what happen now push Jimmy towards Saul? 

I'm happy the cartel is part of the show to an extent.  I was happy to see Mike because I knew we'd get Gus who might be my favorite Breaking Bad character.  And Nacho is an intriguing character.  At the same time, I think I would have been fine spending less time on Salamanca.  I hope next season brings us to more Mike/Gus/Nacho consolidated. 

I'm sure we'll get Jimmy pulled towards that world while Kim will be on her own journey as well.  Is she going to continue down the path with Jimmy towards Saul or will there come a point where her internal moral compass will finally pull her back in a different direction? 

Edited June 28, 2017 by Irlandesa

[TVFan17]

14 hours ago, smorbie said:

I was intrigued by BB because of the psychology of watching a man with a terminal disease wrestle with his humanity and his turn to the dark side.  That's why I tuned in.  I stayed to watch because that was fascinating to me, to watch him blow up family again and again, and still double down on what he was doing.  

I found the family dynamics very interesting as well.

And the story was extraordinarily well written and very intricate.  It really was must-see TV.

But, even with that, as I've said before, the cartel stuff was never interesting to me.  I never pined to know more about Gus' history or Mike's hobbies.  

It's been really interesting to read about how so many of you really care about all that and are totally uninterested in the facets of BCS that fascinate me.  Many people on here are bored to the point of suicide by the very things that kept me tuning in week after week.

From everything I've read on this forum, most people like the whole show -- or even prefer the non-cartel side of it -- and agree more with your view of Better Call Saul.    So... if you mean me -- that I am the one who is "bored to the point of suicide" -- I would not go that far.  I am one lone person with an opinion -- and yes.... surprising though it may be, I prefer the Mike-Gus-cartel half of BCS.   Some of us will have differing opinions on and preferences for what we like and don't like.    For example, last season there was a long, drawn out scene with Kim making phone calls.  I'm sure some folks thought that was riveting, gripping TV, while others thought it was a snoozefest (I remember the comments). 

I watch the other half of the show too, of course, but I just prefer the cartel half.   I don't necessarily care about Mike's hobbies, but he is connected to the part of the show I am most interested in.   Am I interested in learning more about the background and life of Gus Fring?  Hell yes, I am!   He is an enigmatic, mysterious individual who steals most scenes he is in.   I am also interested in learning what happens to Nacho. 

Now I did not say which parts of Breaking Bad were my favorite, but Gus was one of them.  I was more interested in that show as a whole than I am in BCS as a whole, but Skyler and Marie were the weak points for me.    I was most fascinated with Walt (for the reasons you mentioned), as well as Walt and Jesse's relationship and how that completely devolved into mayhem, and yet ended with Walt saving him.  A lot of other people couldn't stand Walt, so, once again, I am pretty much on my own little island with my opinion.   I thought Walt was smart and unintentionally funny, and, even as he became a miserable megalomaniac, I still enjoyed watching him because Bryan Cranston is an outstanding actor who brought a lot of depth to the character.  

Edited June 28, 2017 by TVFan17

[smorbie]

3 hours ago, TVFan17 said:

From everything I've read on this forum, most people like the whole show -- or even prefer the non-cartel side of it -- and agree more with your view of Better Call Saul.    So... if you mean me -- that I am the one who is "bored to the point of suicide" -- I would not go that far.  I am one lone person with an opinion -- and yes.... surprising though it may be, I prefer the Mike-Gus-cartel half of BCS.   Some of us will have differing opinions on and preferences for what we like and don't like.    For example, last season there was a long, drawn out scene with Kim making phone calls.  I'm sure some folks thought that was riveting, gripping TV, while others thought it was a snoozefest (I remember the comments). 

I watch the other half of the show too, of course, but I just prefer the cartel half.   I don't necessarily care about Mike's hobbies, but he is connected to the part of the show I am most interested in.   Am I interested in learning more about the background and life of Gus Fring?  Hell yes, I am!   He is an enigmatic, mysterious individual who steals most scenes he is in.   I am also interested in learning what happens to Nacho. 

Now I did not say which parts of Breaking Bad were my favorite, but Gus was one of them.  I was more interested in that show as a whole than I am in BCS as a whole, but Skyler and Marie were the weak points for me.    I was most fascinated with Walt (for the reasons you mentioned), as well as Walt and Jesse's relationship and how that completely devolved into mayhem, and yet ended with Walt saving him.  A lot of other people couldn't stand Walt, so, once again, I am pretty much on my own little island with my opinion.   I thought Walt was smart and unintentionally funny, and, even as he became a miserable megalomaniac, I still enjoyed watching him because Bryan Cranston is an outstanding actor who brought a lot of depth to the character.  

Wasn't pointing to anyone in particular.  I tend to skim over the comments discussing things about the show in which I am not interested.  I was just alluding to the number of people on this threads covering this season who complained about Jimmy's story line, but gushed with joy over the cartel/Mike stuff.

[Tikichick]

6 hours ago, TVFan17 said:

From everything I've read on this forum, most people like the whole show -- or even prefer the non-cartel side of it -- and agree more with your view of Better Call Saul.    So... if you mean me -- that I am the one who is "bored to the point of suicide" -- I would not go that far.  I am one lone person with an opinion -- and yes.... surprising though it may be, I prefer the Mike-Gus-cartel half of BCS.   Some of us will have differing opinions on and preferences for what we like and don't like.    For example, last season there was a long, drawn out scene with Kim making phone calls.  I'm sure some folks thought that was riveting, gripping TV, while others thought it was a snoozefest (I remember the comments). 

I watch the other half of the show too, of course, but I just prefer the cartel half.   I don't necessarily care about Mike's hobbies, but he is connected to the part of the show I am most interested in.   Am I interested in learning more about the background and life of Gus Fring?  Hell yes, I am!   He is an enigmatic, mysterious individual who steals most scenes he is in.   I am also interested in learning what happens to Nacho. 

Now I did not say which parts of Breaking Bad were my favorite, but Gus was one of them.  I was more interested in that show as a whole than I am in BCS as a whole, but Skyler and Marie were the weak points for me.    I was most fascinated with Walt (for the reasons you mentioned), as well as Walt and Jesse's relationship and how that completely devolved into mayhem, and yet ended with Walt saving him.  A lot of other people couldn't stand Walt, so, once again, I am pretty much on my own little island with my opinion.   I thought Walt was smart and unintentionally funny, and, even as he became a miserable megalomaniac, I still enjoyed watching him because Bryan Cranston is an outstanding actor who brought a lot of depth to the character.  

I absolutely adore Bryan Cranston.  I still came to loathe Walter White as the layers were peeled back, revealing what an odious human being he was.  Bryan Cranston did an amazing job portraying the character incredibly well, enough that I did make it over my natural inclination to enjoy Bryan Cranston -- to remember I was coming to despise Walter more every day.  Of course I came to despise Skylar even moreso -- Marie was her sister and always jumped to help Walter and Skylar and the kids, Hank too.  How Skylar could be so cold blooded about her sister did me in.

I trust the people behind the show to tell me an amazing story.   I trust them enough to invest and let it stress me out when it comes to the cartel storyline.

[smorbie]

22 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

- Marie was her sister and always jumped to help Walter and Skylar and the kids, Hank too

After I watched it through the last time, which I think was my third time, I realized the only people I didn't absolutely hate were Hank and Holly; I forgot Saul, but I think it's impossible for anyone other than Chuck to really hate him.

I have to admit I've had a hard time liking Cranston since.

And, yeah, Skylar was a piece of work, wasn't she?  In the end she and Walter really deserved each other, two truly unlikable humans.

Edited June 28, 2017 by smorbie

[Clanstarling]

4 minutes ago, smorbie said:

I have to admit I've had a hard time liking Cranston since.

His LBJ was brilliant, though there was certainly a bit of Heisenberg in that portrayal. But I've started rewatching Malcom in the Middle, which is pretty fun and a reminder of his comedic side.

Edited June 28, 2017 by Clanstarling

[smorbie]

4 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

His LBJ was brilliant, though there was certainly a bit of Heisenberg in that portrayal. But I've started rewatching Malcom in the Middle, which is pretty fun and a reminder of his comedic side.

I tried to do that a year of so ago, because I so loved him in that.  But, it was too soon.

[Adiba]

The more I think about this episode, the more I wonder about the manner in which Chuck commits suicide. Not only was his method painful if he didn't die or pass out from smoke inhalation first, there was a slight chance that it wouldn't work. From what I've seen, there were plenty of nearby houses in Chuck's neighborhood. Someone could've seen the flames and resuced Chuck (?)  -- if that were the case, surviving with extensive burns even though one wanted to die seems like a real hellish existence.  

 

(Btw, Cranston was hilarious as Doug's neighbor on King of Queens.)

[smorbie]

On 6/27/2017 at 9:37 AM, Clanstarling said:

I wasn't particularly interested in Saul either, and though him an odd character to choose for a prequel

My son, who follows BB like it's an obsession (God bless my long-suffering DIL), says Gilligan conceived Saul from the beginning planning to spin him off into a sequel.  And he really is a very fleshed out character, emphasis on "character".  He's intriguing in his own right.

27 minutes ago, Adiba said:

The more I think about this episode, the more I wonder about the manner in which Chuck commits suicide. Not only was his method painful if he didn't die or pass out from smoke inhalation first, there was a slight chance that it wouldn't work. From what I've seen, there were plenty of nearby houses in Chuck's neighborhood. Someone could've seen the flames and resuced Chuck (?)  -- if that were the case, surviving with extensive burns even though one wanted to die seems like a real hellish existence.  

 

(Btw, Cranston was hilarious as Doug's neighbor on King of Queens.)

Yes, he was.  He was an oily little thing, wasn't he?  He was also good on Seinfeld the couple of times he was on there.

[PrincessSteel]

On 6/28/2017 at 6:36 AM, Clanstarling said:

His LBJ was brilliant, though there was certainly a bit of Heisenberg in that portrayal. But I've started rewatching Malcom in the Middle, which is pretty fun and a reminder of his comedic side.

"Dying is easy. Comedy is hard." By consistently casting comic actors in serious roles (Cranston, Odenkirk, McKean), Gilligan is giving us some of the most remarkable television of my lifetime. Smart fellow, that Vince guy.

Edited June 29, 2017 by PrincessSteel

[Jextella]

On 6/28/2017 at 2:29 PM, smorbie said:

My son, who follows BB like it's an obsession (God bless my long-suffering DIL), says Gilligan conceived Saul from the beginning planning to spin him off into a sequel.  And he really is a very fleshed out character, emphasis on "character".  He's intriguing in his own right.

Yes, he was.  He was an oily little thing, wasn't he?  He was also good on Seinfeld the couple of times he was on there.

That's interesting and I think it kinda makes sense.  Saul was wrapped in a pretty bow in BB.  His character was more fleshed out than most other side characters.  

Edited July 3, 2017 by Jextella

[nept1]

What if Kim becomes addicted to drugs due to her medicine and becomes Wendy in BB?

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, nept1 said:

What if Kim becomes addicted to drugs due to her medicine and becomes Wendy in BB?

Now that just made me recoil in horror.

[JudyObscure]

9 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

Now that just made me recoil in horror.

Me too, but then I remembered -- Wendy doesn't have a ponytail.

[Jextella]

3 hours ago, nept1 said:

What if Kim becomes addicted to drugs due to her medicine and becomes Wendy in BB?

OMG.  Now that's a theory!

Other than the fact that Wendy seemed quite a bit older, it could happen!  I suspect viewers would cry foul, but ya never know.

Edited June 30, 2017 by Jextella

[Dev F]

Also, one assumes that before she was a meth addict, Wendy was still a woman named Wendy. It's not like that's a sexy fake hooker name, and Wendy didn't seem like the type who would go by a nom de guerre just to safeguard her dignity.

[Eulipian 5k]

16 hours ago, nept1 said:

What if Kim becomes addicted to drugs due to her medicine and becomes Wendy in BB?

You folks were warned on page 4:

"Also, a caution all those who heard the "the answer is always the good stuff" Don't you dare! It's bad enough that she had the accident; don't you dare even think! about Kim and opiates.  She ran off to Canada with Nacho, that's why she's not in BB."

 

But Chuuck will be back, fully reincarnated like Ray :     .

[Bryce Lynch]

On 6/28/2017 at 9:32 AM, smorbie said:

After I watched it through the last time, which I think was my third time, I realized the only people I didn't absolutely hate were Hank and Holly; I forgot Saul, but I think it's impossible for anyone other than Chuck to really hate him.

I have to admit I've had a hard time liking Cranston since.

And, yeah, Skylar was a piece of work, wasn't she?  In the end she and Walter really deserved each other, two truly unlikable humans.

I really grew to like Marie by the end of the show.  She was so supportive of Hank through his PTSD and recovery and physical therapy, after the shooting, despite his abuse.  She also tried to be good to Skylar (and Walt Jr.), even after she found out everything about Walt and after Skyler helped Walt blackmail them.  When Hank told her he had Walt in custody and "dead to rights" she made Skyler tell Walt Jr instead of letting him hear it on the news.  In the Finale, she called a truce when she heard Walt was back in town to call Skyler and warn her.  She could be  annoying, and liked to steal silver items, but she was a very loyal and caring person, even to people who didn't seem to deserve it at the time. 

[benteen]

It's interesting to note that Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul are very male-driven shows.  Saul has only one female character of note and not counting Lydia's later arrival, BB just had Skylar and Marie, who never really had much to do on the show.

[smorbie]

1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I really grew to like Marie by the end of the show.  She was so supportive of Hank through his PTSD and recovery and physical therapy, after the shooting, despite his abuse.  She also tried to be good to Skylar (and Walt Jr.), even after she found out everything about Walt and after Skyler helped Walt blackmail them.  When Hank told her he had Walt in custody and "dead to rights" she made Skyler tell Walt Jr instead of letting him hear it on the news.  In the Finale, she called a truce when she heard Walt was back in town to call Skyler and warn her.  She could be  annoying, and liked to steal silver items, but she was a very loyal and caring person, even to people who didn't seem to deserve it at the time. 

Oh, she was.  I just never liked her.

[Bryce Lynch]

1 hour ago, benteen said:

It's interesting to note that Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul are very male-driven shows.  Saul has only one female character of note and not counting Lydia's later arrival, BB just had Skylar and Marie, who never really had much to do on the show.

This is probably because the drug trafficking business is very male dominant.  

BB was mostly about the meth business.  BCS is part law, part drugs, but the drug plot has a lot more characters than the law plot.  Females are pretty well represented among the primary and secondary law related characters on BCS, Kim, Paige, Erin, Francesca.  The only major, male law characters have Jimmy, Chuck and Howard, with Ernesto, Omar and Cliff Main being secondary characters for a while.  

[PeterPirate]

The drug trafficking part of the story interests me because it adds to the BB story canon. Gus is particularly compelling because we know he will develop into a drug lord. I like Mike as a character even though he isn't all that complicated. 

Kim is by far the most interesting character of the show for me. She's the reason I decided to tune into BCS in season 3, after having binge-watched the first two seasons just beforehand. Her attraction to Jimmy and her willingness to overlook his legal shenanigans are intriguing and I really want to see where this takes her. (I binge-watched BB after the show wrapped, and while I liked following Walt's story, I wasn't drawn to Saul enough to tune into BCS when it first started airing.) 

Now that Chuck has killed himself, I am officially "into" this show. I really want to see how this impacts the other characters and how they wrestle among themselves and with their own consciences. And Howard really stepped up in the season finale and has the potential to become a formidable adversary to Jimmy. I now see Kim ending up with Howard as an acceptable way to remove her from Saul's presence by the time he meets Badger.    

(Fwiw, BCS is the fourth show that I have been "into" over the last decade, the other three being The Walking Dead, Pushing Daisies, and The West Wing.)

Edited July 1, 2017 by PeterPirate

[Clanstarling]

12 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

The drug trafficking part of the story interests me because it adds to the BB story canon. Gus is particularly compelling because we know he will develop into a drug lord.

That's true for me too. If I hadn't watched Breaking Bad and wasn't familiar with the characters and how they end up, I probably wouldn't like the drug trafficking story either. I didn't watch BB because of it, until my husband wanted to watch it. 

I didn't think Saul was a good character choice for a sequel, as he was (to me) comic relief at best. But I was hooked from the first episode.