Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[WindyNights]

On 3/23/2019 at 7:39 PM, GraceK said:

Also, this idea that GRRM is even pushing for this overthrow of the Monarchy is ridiculous. He has as his hero a hidden prince with a magical connection to a dire wolf who is a pure blood of two mystical noble houses, a Queen with legendary blood who can ride dragons and is who another pure blood of a ancient magical bloodline that SCREAMs destiny, and has written for years about the Targaryens, his favorite house. Since the Targaryens have been usurped Westeros has had a drunk king who was murdered, an inbred evil tyrant bastard king, a teen puppet, and now a mad despot. The two descendants of the Targaryen dynasty are the protagonists of the story and are being set up to literally save the world, and Jon Snow has the bonus of also being a Stark, the magical mix of ice and fire of the series. I mean, it can’t hit you on the head hard enough that GRRM is pushing for some kind of restoration, maybe even a Camelot after all the bloodshed and chaos of the War for the Dawn. The Camelot part is my own interpretation however.  

Actually according to GRRM, House Stark is his favorite house although I think House Targaryen is a close second.

[Happy Harpy]

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

He looks great. Where is this picture from? Promotional photos and other stills are starting to trickle out to various media outlets.

Someone posted on Freefolk, I don't remember if they mentioned the source.

49 minutes ago, anamika said:

I found this interesting from the SFX magazine scan:

Quote

One episode is said to be an intimate character study that will stand in stark contrast to the bombast of the rest of the season.

I am guessing the character study could be of Jon/Dany after parentage reveal or of Tyrion if there is a betrayal plot.

It could be in 8x02. It should be very heavy on character interactions since all the action pieces that were to happen before the battle of WF, Theon saving Yara (naval battle) and the NK destroying CB, were in 8x01. Jon/Dany seem the most obvious choice, but we've been quite privy of their thoughts so far. Could the character be Bran? The other "big event" left is Jaime's arrival, it could be a trigger for him. Such an episode could lift the curtain on Bran's thoughts, revealing what the writers couldn't show so far for lack of book-like POVs. Since he sees everything, the episode wouldn't have to be focused on him only.

Otherwise, it could be in 8x04 after the battle, or in 8x06 indeed to reveal what made Tyrion betray, if he does. IIRC, it's supposed to be like the reveal in a suspense novel.

[GraceK]

From Freefolk , another picture.

https://mobile.twitter.com/mardyjon/status/1110895708251586560?s=19

Source seems to be tvguide

[GraceK]

[GraceK]

I’m linking all I can as I get it I’m not responsible for the black circles 

Edited March 27, 2019 by GraceK

[Minneapple]

Not shocked at all that Jon isn't on board with the incest.

I do feel for Dany. She will perhaps feel isolated and alone (without her safety, as Emilia says) as Jon goes off to do his broody thing, and her whole world will have been upended as she considers that she may not be the rightful ruler of Westeros. This is the character development I expected out of this story and it makes sense to me.

[LadyChaos]

So looks like Sansa's issue is that, without really knowing Dany or probably trying to get to know her, she believes that Dany is trying to manipulate and control Jon.  With that frame of mind, I could definitely see her acting behind Jon's back, and maybe trying to sabotage their relationship.

I still stick by my theory that Jon will push Dany away once he realizes who he is, and that Dany will be afraid that it was a con all along to get access to her armies so he can take the throne. I think she will come around sooner than he will, and realize that he probably needs her support right now.  However he will still push her away until it comes out that she is pregnant. Then he will set aside his own concerns about their relationship and offer to marry her.  Jon would want to make sure his child would be a legitimate heir, not a bastard.  

Whether the marriage happens or not, I'm 50/50 about.  I do think Dany will give birth, but I'm also 70/30 that she'll die leaving Jon with the child. Im more inclined to think that Jon will decide he is not fit to raise his own child, so he will give it to someone else.  For some reason, I feel like it will be Sansa that he asks to raise his kid, if she survives.  OR maybe Samwell, whom I think will take over his family.

[GraceK]

Here’s the whole thing .

[GraceK]

Dany also looks  a little pregnant in the earlier picture I posted IMO 🤷🏻‍♀️. I could be imagining it but she looks a little fluffy. 😂

[WindyNights]

On 3/25/2019 at 1:55 PM, Happy Harpy said:

That's my point, precisely. She said that Arya misunderstood, the script says the opposite.

Everything that happened to her, Sansa, Rickon's death and Branbot, she knew/had lived from 7x05 on when she didn't give a fuck about the North or the Northern Lords, only cared about keeping Jon in charge and be loyal to him. So yes, it would be OOC if it changed all of a sudden in S8.

Jon isn't like Robb at all. He didn't give up a crucial alliance for the North in order to "follow his heart". It happens that he fell in love with the person who is a crucial ally for the North -it's as if Robb had fallen for Margaery Tyrell. Robb lost half of his troops. Jon doubled, tripled, quadrupled his troops; he actually did just the opposite of Robb.

Arya and Jon have in common their admiration for Ned, Arya even dresses like him; so I don't see how Jon being like Ned would be a problem for Arya.

Once more, Jon is a king. A king can consult his vassals, but they don't have a say.

Jon's not an absolute monarch. His vassals hold sway. Even Robb knew that they could unmake him King if he did things they wouldn't like.

[ursula]

2 hours ago, WindyNights said:

Actually according to GRRM, House Stark is his favorite house although I think House Targaryen is a close second.

GRRM lied. 

At the moment, he is more interested in writing about Targaryens (2 short stories, 3 Dunk & Egg books, 1 humongous door-stopper that is technically half of his world-building notes from AWOIAF) than any other House in Westeros. 

When he announces that he's planning to write 3 volumes of Wolves and Winter: A History of the Stark Dynasty*, I'll take it back. Until then - no, just no. 

4 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

Jon's not an absolute monarch. His vassals hold sway. Even Robb knew that they could unmake him King if he did things they wouldn't like.

Robb cut off the head of his most powerful vassal.

*At this rate, I'll settle for him just finishing Dunk & Egg #4: She-Wolves of Winterfell.

[SeanC]

34 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

I do think Dany will give birth, but I'm also 70/30 that she'll die leaving Jon with the child.

I don't see how there's room for Dany to give birth within the main narrative action, given the pace at which events seem likely to proceed at this point.  At this point, assuming she's pregnant (and boy have they laid the foreshadowing on thick for that) she's either going to die before child is born or else survive the climax, and at that point she could only die in a "death by childbed" epilogue.

Quote

Im more inclined to think that Jon will decide he is not fit to raise his own child, so he will give it to someone else.

Jon would never leave his own child to be raised by somebody else.

[GrailKing]

On 3/23/2019 at 10:39 PM, GraceK said:

Also, this idea that GRRM is even pushing for this overthrow of the Monarchy is ridiculous. He has as his hero a hidden prince with a magical connection to a dire wolf who is a pure blood of two mystical noble houses, a Queen with legendary blood who can ride dragons and is who another pure blood of a ancient magical bloodline that SCREAMs destiny, and has written for years about the Targaryens, his favorite house. Since the Targaryens have been usurped Westeros has had a drunk king who was murdered, an inbred evil tyrant bastard king, a teen puppet, and now a mad despot. The two descendants of the Targaryen dynasty are the protagonists of the story and are being set up to literally save the world, and Jon Snow has the bonus of also being a Stark, the magical mix of ice and fire of the series. I mean, it can’t hit you on the head hard enough that GRRM is pushing for some kind of restoration, maybe even a Camelot after all the bloodshed and chaos of the War for the Dawn. The Camelot part is my own interpretation however.  

I think he wrote that the Starks are his heroes, but he finds House Targaryren's interesting to write about.

[Colorful Mess]

53 minutes ago, ursula said:

GRRM lied. 

At the moment, he is more interested in writing about Targaryens (2 short stories, 3 Dunk & Egg books, 1 humongous door-stopper that is technically half of his world-building notes from AWOIAF) than any other House in Westeros. 

When he announces that he's planning to write 3 volumes of Wolves and Winter: A History of the Stark Dynasty*, I'll take it back. Until then - no, just no.

Oh, as a Stark fan I LOVE Fire and Blood. Even with the few good Targaryen kings, the ones that come after them destroy whatever it was they built. I can't wait for F&B part 2 to illustrate this further. I'm fully convinced the author is making a critique of imperialism and the dangers of nuclear power with this House. Other than that, what's the message? Dragons are cool?

I share Sansa's concerns, basically asking if Jon has his head on straight. Is he Robb and Ned or is he actually going to learn from past mistakes? It would be good to get some assurances, although I dont know how Jon explains it: "I realized I loved her because she saved me but I also bent the knee because I thought she would make a great queen but I also know we need her armies--but not necessarily a new queen--but I also love her and want her to have my babies." 

Sansa: oookkkaaayyyy (Slowly backing away)

Dany being in a fragile place sounds bad - she needs to be in good mental health. Whatever decision she makes could affect millions. 

[Happy Harpy]

Sansa believes in Political! Dany...it's hilarious 😂 Her instincts are so honed, so on point, it's...disheartening, actually, even taking into account how they always exaggerate in this kind of article. Good luck with her not coming off bitter or petty, especially with the way they describe Dany's state of mind. *holding on to "initially", holding on to "initially"*

It sounds like Arya will go to dangerous lengths to get rid of Cersei, in order to protect the Starks. I wonder if she'll blame herself for going to WF instead of  KL in S7, even if her choice allowed to get rid of LF, an even bigger and more immediate threat.

Jaime didn't forsake his child when he left Cersei, I like that. Looking forward to Jaime/Tyrion and how it will turn out.

They really make it sound as if 8x03 will be the only/finale battle. Filming info says otherwise.

[WindyNights]

1 hour ago, ursula said:

GRRM lied. 

At the moment, he is more interested in writing about Targaryens (2 short stories, 3 Dunk & Egg books, 1 humongous door-stopper that is technically half of his world-building notes from AWOIAF) than any other House in Westeros. 

When he announces that he's planning to write 3 volumes of Wolves and Winter: A History of the Stark Dynasty*, I'll take it back. Until then - no, just no. 

Robb cut off the head of his most powerful vassal.

*At this rate, I'll settle for him just finishing Dunk & Egg #4: She-Wolves of Winterfell.

Is there a believable reason that you could give me behind why he would lie?

In the Empire chat with fans, Martin reveals that his favourite House is Stark, because, “After all, it all began with the Starks.”

Your favorite house doesn't necessarily the one you enjoy writing the most on. 

Like Benioff enjoys writing for Cersei the most but his favorite character is Sansa according to himself

There are also limitations to writing about House Stark versus Targaryen.

Namely that House Targaryen history would cover all the continent of Westeros rather than just a select region and it's all concentrated within 300 years versus the thousand of years of House Stark.

My personal view though is that GRRM loves the current Starks the most in ASOIAF the most as a House but loves writing about the historical Targaryens the best.

[ursula]

46 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

Oh, as a Stark fan I LOVE Fire and Blood. Even with the few good Targaryen kings, the ones that come after them destroy whatever it was they built. I can't wait for F&B part 2 to illustrate this further. I'm fully convinced the author is making a critique of imperialism and the dangers of nuclear power with this House. Other than that, what's the message? Dragons are cool?

He's still writing about Targaryens. He could be writing about good and Noble Starks going on adventures and saving the world and/or the North (and there are a lot of hints of Legendary Starks in the books and AWOIAF) but all his focus is on Targaryens.

That's the thing about writing - you can't hide your favorites. And it has nothing to do with messages about morality or themes.

And yeah maybe it's as simple as "dragons are cool" because the only thing Fire Blood proves is that if GRRM only had to write about Targs and their dragons in the remaining books of ASOIAF, he'd probably have finished them a long time ago.

15 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

Your favorite house doesn't necessarily the one you enjoy writing the most on.

For a writer, that's exactly what it means. 

Edited March 27, 2019 by ursula

[Colorful Mess]

5 minutes ago, ursula said:

And it has nothing to do with messages about morality or themes.

Read this quote:

“Dragons are the nuclear deterrent, and only [Daenerys Targaryen] has them, which in some ways makes her the most powerful person in the world. But is that sufficient? These are the kind of issues I’m trying to explore. The United States right now has the ability to destroy the world with our nuclear arsenal, but that doesn’t mean we can achieve specific geopolitical goals. Power is more subtle than that. You can have the power to destroy, but it doesn’t give you the power to reform, or improve, or build.” - GRRM, Bulletin for the Atomic Scientists, 2011

No theme - You're absolutely sure of that?

[nikma]

35 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

Jaime didn't forsake his child when he left Cersei, 

Yeah. If Tyrion betrays the Starks it won't be just for Cersei. It will be for Jaime and their child.

Jaime is fighting to protect his child and Cersei. And I'm sure the Starks will make it clear that they don't want Cersei alive, especially if she attacks them in E3. That will create problems in their relationship with Tyrion and Jaime. They will never agree to execute her.

Edited March 27, 2019 by nikma

[ursula]

24 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

No theme - You're absolutely sure of that?

Actually I said writer's favorites have nothing to do with themes. (He also said that his inspiration for Dany's story was his own memories of how his family lost a fortune when he was young and he grew up with that burden. So maybe that's the theme he's going for. )

You're working on the wrong assumption that GRRM is a "fan". That he has the same relationship with the story and characters as we do. That him approving or disapproving of any character has anything to do what inspires him to dream about these characters' stories or what motivates him to sit down at his desk and put these dreams on paper to concretize them or share with other people. 

The thing is - and to quote GRRM himself - words are wind. Whatever he might like to be telling about the "dangers of dragons", the only thing he's showing with 200K+ words and counting is that he likes writing about Targs and dragons. 

Or in other words: fandom needs themes. Creators need a muse.

Edited March 27, 2019 by ursula

[bubble sparkly]

59 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

Sansa believes in Political! Dany...it's hilarious 😂 Her instincts are so honed, so on point

I am giggling so hard that after a 2 year off-season where a certain shipper group were incessantly peddling political!Jon theories, it turns out that Dany is the one being accused by Sansa of using sex to manipulate Jon. Too funny!

[GraceK]

6 minutes ago, bubble sparkly said:

I am giggling so hard that after a 2 year off-season where a certain shipper group were incessantly peddling political!Jon theories, it turns out that Dany is the one being accused by Sansa of using sex to manipulate Jon. Too funny!

Poor Dany It’s like she’s meeting the sister in laws from hell 😂😂😂

Im kidding guys it’s just funny this is sounding more like an awkward family dinner in a sitcom .

Edited March 27, 2019 by GraceK

[Happy Harpy]

40 minutes ago, nikma said:

Yeah. If Tyrion betrays the Starks it won't be just for Cersei. It will be for Jaime and their child.

Jaime is fighting to protect his child and Cersei. And I'm sure the Starks will make it clear that they don't want Cersei alive, especially if she attacks them in E3. That will create problems in their relationship with Tyrion and Jaime. They will never agree to execute her.

I'm not sure that Jon and Dany would execute Cersei if they know she's pregnant. Based on their behavior so far, I think they'd accept to keep her prisoner until she gives birth. Arya would be less lenient but D&D recentely insisted that her killings were justified and she didn't kill innocents, so who knows.

I wonder how the miscarriage will play out in all this. If Jaime indeed dies in 8x03 or 8x04 (WatchersOnMyBall's set report) it could make Tyrion even more adamant to "save" his child. If Cersei lies about being still pregnant, Tyrion betrays to save her and her child, and he then realizes she lied, I could see him strangle her in a blind rage, like he did Shae.

[Colorful Mess]

16 minutes ago, ursula said:

Actually I said writer's favorites have nothing to do with themes. (He also said that he related to Dany's story because his family also lost a fortune when he was young and he grew up with that burden. So maybe that's the theme he's going for. )

You're working on the wrong assumption that GRRM is a "fan". That he has the same relationship with the story and characters as we do. That him approving or disapproving of any character has anything to do what inspires him to dream about these characters' stories or what motivates him to sit down at his desk and put these dreams on paper to concretize them or share with other people. 

The thing is - and to quote GRRM himself - words are wind. Whatever he might like to be telling about the "dangers of dragons", the only thing he's showing with 200K+ words and counting is that he likes writing about Targs and dragons. 

Or in other words: fandom needs themes. Creators need a muse.

The Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists informs the public about threats to the survival and development of humanity from nuclear weapons, climate change, and technology. It was established in 1945 with the Manhattan Project. After the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, they started to warn the public about the consequences of these weapons. These scientists, who are still on that mission today, asked him a serious question about the meaning of dragon power in his work, and he gave them one. Since a world-destroying threat like nuclear deterrence is a complex and important problem, it probably does take about 200k+ words to show the theme he's telling. Unfortunately for him, some readers have difficulties seeing that, perhaps because they just don't like the message.

[GraceK]

15 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

wonder how the miscarriage will play out in all this. If Jaime indeed dies in 8x03 or 8x04 (WatchersOnMyBall's set report) it could make Tyrion even more adamant to "save" his child. If Cersei lies about being still pregnant, Tyrion betrays to save her and her child, and he then realizes she lied, I could see him strangle her in a blind rage, like he did Shae.

Nice theory.

It fits with the idea that it’s a tragedy if Tyrion’s only betrayal is saving Cersei for Jaimes sake , only to inadvertently get someone else he loves or cares about on team good guy killed, just to find out she lost the baby anyway and it was all for nothing.  Like Damn that’s Shakespearean and that honestly doesn’t make Tyrion have to have any retconned behavior.  It just him choosing his family after all at the end, which would be seen as treason . 

Callbacks to season one ::

a Stark and Baratheon marriage for real -Arya and Gendry?

A Lannister beheaded for treason in KL -

By The Starks( a role reversal)

Dany gives birth to a baby instead of dragons 

   It will be really cool to look back after the finale and find the parallels. Right now I really have no idea, but I am HYPED 😊😊😊

Edited March 27, 2019 by GraceK

[MarySNJ]

3 hours ago, GraceK said:

Dany also looks  a little pregnant in the earlier picture I posted IMO 🤷🏻‍♀️. I could be imagining it but she looks a little fluffy. 😂

That’s what I thought too.  It’s not just the less fitted (possibly to disguise a baby bump) dress but her face actually looks fuller. 

[GraceK]

Just now, MarySNJ said:

That’s what I thought too.  It’s not just the less fitted (possibly to disguise a baby bump) dress but her face actually looks fuller. 

And she’s cradling her stomach almost.

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, Colorful Mess said:

Read this quote:

“Dragons are the nuclear deterrent, and only [Daenerys Targaryen] has them, which in some ways makes her the most powerful person in the world. But is that sufficient? These are the kind of issues I’m trying to explore. The United States right now has the ability to destroy the world with our nuclear arsenal, but that doesn’t mean we can achieve specific geopolitical goals. Power is more subtle than that. You can have the power to destroy, but it doesn’t give you the power to reform, or improve, or build.” - GRRM, Bulletin for the Atomic Scientists, 2011

No theme - You're absolutely sure of that?

Er, yes, that's a good encapsulation of the challenges he explores for Dany beginning in ASOS, and in greater detail in ADWD.  The dragons' power is necessary, but not sufficient.

[Minneapple]

39 minutes ago, bubble sparkly said:

I am giggling so hard that after a 2 year off-season where a certain shipper group were incessantly peddling political!Jon theories, it turns out that Dany is the one being accused by Sansa of using sex to manipulate Jon. Too funny!

Well, yeah. Sansa knows that Jon is good and kind-hearted and wouldn't do such a thing. TBH she's probably upset that he didn't manipulate Dany.

3 hours ago, SeanC said:

I don't see how there's room for Dany to give birth within the main narrative action, given the pace at which events seem likely to proceed at this point.  At this point, assuming she's pregnant (and boy have they laid the foreshadowing on thick for that) she's either going to die before child is born or else survive the climax, and at that point she could only die in a "death by childbed" epilogue.

I am also beginning to have doubts about Dany being pregnant and giving birth to a child, although they did hammer us over the head with it in season 7.

[ursula]

23 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

The Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists informs the public about threats to the survival and development of humanity from nuclear weapons, climate change, and technology. It was established in 1945 with the Manhattan Project. After the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, they started to warn the public about the consequences of these weapons. These scientists, who are still on that mission today, asked him a serious question about the meaning of dragon power in his work, and he gave them one. Since a world-destroying threat like nuclear deterrence is a complex and important problem, it probably does take about 200k+ words to show the theme he's telling. 

Well that will explain the Writer's Block. 

Edited March 27, 2019 by ursula

[Colorful Mess]

5 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Er, yes, that's a good encapsulation of the challenges he explores for Dany beginning in ASOS, and in greater detail in ADWD.  The dragons' power is necessary, but not sufficient.

Not sufficient to do something other than destroy because that is the only power they will have, as a House, with dragons. He is showing how Targaryens can't improve, reform, or build anything in the long term with dragons. This theme for Dany is currently in progress. He says she should have read Fire and Blood to learn the more about her own history Essos, which was bombed for centuries by dragons. There is a doom-loop going on here. The writing on the wall is that her House ends if nuclear weapons are the foundation of the dynasty.  

[Happy Harpy]

23 minutes ago, GraceK said:

Callbacks to season one ::

a Stark and Baratheon marriage for real -Arya and Gendry?

A Lannister beheaded for treason in KL -

By The Starks( a role reversal)

Dany gives birth to a baby instead of dragons 

   It will be really cool to look back after the finale and find the parallels. Right now I really have no idea, but I am HYPED 😊😊😊

Another reversal: no Robert to stop Clegane Bowl 🤩

I'd also sell my soul for the first callback, if I still had one 😉

Edited March 27, 2019 by Happy Harpy

[WindyNights]

1 hour ago, ursula said:

He's still writing about Targaryens. He could be writing about good and Noble Starks going on adventures and saving the world and/or the North (and there are a lot of hints of Legendary Starks in the books and AWOIAF) but all his focus is on Targaryens.

That's the thing about writing - you can't hide your favorites. And it has nothing to do with messages about morality or themes.

And yeah maybe it's as simple as "dragons are cool" because the only thing Fire Blood proves is that if GRRM only had to write about Targs and their dragons in the remaining books of ASOIAF, he'd probably have finished them a long time ago.

For a writer, that's exactly what it means. 

That's pretty insincere. Writing fake history is much easier than writing character-driven plots that have to connect with other character-driven plots.  

I also disagree that your favorite character is going to be the one you enjoy writing the most about. Sometimes your favorite character is the one that is actually hard to write about because they're so complex that it takes time to write them properly. Sometimes it just happens to be the one that's easiest to write about because you feel so close to that person that it comes out naturally for you. But also family units aren't characters.

 I mean to me, it seems obvious that the story of ASOIAF is heavily Stark centric because the story starts with the Starks, it begins at Winterfell, their motto is about the main threat, 6 out of the 8 initial PoVs are the Stark family, the final book was even named "A Time for Wolves" for a certain portion of time etc.

I feel like the argument that House Targaryen is GRRM's favorite and GRRM must be lying is based on said person wanting (a) House Targaryen to be GRRM's favorite and (b) the type of person that thinks an author lies whenever it doesn't fit their own view of things.

Like I said, there's no reason to lie. He could've just said House Targaryen is his favorite and no one would've batted an eye

[SeanC]

10 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

Not sufficient to do something other than destroy because that is the only power they will have, as a House, with dragons. He is showing how Targaryens can't improve, reform, or build anything in the long term with dragons. This theme for Dany is currently in progress. He says she should have read Fire and Blood to learn the more about her own history Essos, which was bombed for centuries by dragons. There is a doom-loop going on here. The writing on the wall is that her House ends if nuclear weapons are the foundation of the dynasty.  

The fall of the Targaryen dynasty had nothing to do with them having dragons -- indeed, dragons would have been very useful during Robert's Rebellion.  And Fire and Blood has nothing to do with the Targaryens' history in Essos.

GRRM is pointing out that raw power isn't enough to build a better world.  But you do need that power.  The ability to destroy the entrenched masters' caste is necessary to improve Slaver's Bay, but it's not sufficient to do so.  When Dany tries to lock up the dragons, things go south, partly for other reasons, but also partly because their power is vital to keeping control.

Many of the Targaryens' positive reforms (the roads, abolishing First Night, etc.) have long outlasted the dragons, and other reforms, Aegon V's, were repealed in great part because the Crown lacked to power to enforce them on the nobles without dragons.

Edited March 27, 2019 by SeanC

[nikma]

53 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

m not sure that Jon and Dany would execute Cersei if they know she's pregnant.

They won't. But I don't think Jaime will agree to kill Cersei after she gives birth.

He won't let them kill her, no matter the pregnancy.

[SimoneS]

My speculation is that Jaime goes to see Cersei to try to get her to surrender for the sake of their child, only to discover that she has had a miscarriage causing her to lose any remaining restraint she has ever had. Rather than surrender and give up the Iron Throne, Cersei just wants "to watch the world burn"  so in rage Jaime chokes her to death. The Mountain kills Jaime while Brienne watches in horror. The Hound and his brother fight to the death. 

Edited March 27, 2019 by SimoneS

[whateverdgaf]

I reckon the intimate scenes between Tyrion and Jaime are going to be partially about Jaime talking about his conflicted feelings towards Cersei (and probably Brienne as well) with Tyrion offering him some guidance. NCW has done a great job so far of showing his conflict facially, I'm hoping he will have a chance to let it all out, like he did with Brienne and the bath. 

[ursula]

39 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

Writing fake history is much easier than writing character-driven plots that have to connect with other character-driven plots.

But isn't that an argument against (GRRM loves Starks more than Targs) than for?

He already wrote fake history for the Targs and everyone else in a AWOIAF, and sprinkled through the ASOIAF books. He took those bullet-point summaries and expanded them into character-driven plots connecting with other character-driven plots across generations. (Seriously, the level of planning and intricacy in Fire & Blood is insane!) He could have done that for the Starks, the Lannisters, or any other House but only did that for Targaryens.

39 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

I also disagree that your favorite character is going to be the one you enjoy writing the most about. Sometimes your favorite character is the one that is actually hard to write about because they're so complex that it takes time to write them properly. Sometimes it just happens to be the one that's easiest to write about because you feel so close to that person that it comes out naturally for you. But also family units aren't characters.

And again, you're looking at it from the fan's perspective. Characters aren't complex or simple for a writer because a writer creates characters. Again, fans look for themes. Writers look for inspiration. A writer will enjoy writing the intricacy of a complicated plot or all the sides of a multi-faceted characters as long as they're inspired to. 

I do agree that GRRM probably started ASOIAF thinking it was the Starks's and only the Starks's story. It's probably a leftover of that feeling that made him claim that they are his favorites. (When exactly was this interview given anyway?) But even from the start he made the 2 most significant characters in his story Targaryens. 

39 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

6 out of the 8 initial PoVs are the Stark family

Who, besides Jon and Bran are all telling the same story. So that's 4 characters in one short-term plot while the long-term storylines are being carried by 2 Targaryens and Bran. (Whose destiny, oddly enough, is to take the mantle that another Targaryen first occupied!)

Edited March 27, 2019 by ursula

[SimoneS]

How on earth did Jon become Dany's only "safety left?" Those dragons, the Dothraki, the Unsullied, Grey Worm, Missendei, and Jorah who all gave up everything and risked everything for Dany don't give her any emotional safety? Ugh, I was afraid this would happen. All to prop up the patriarchy and their women supporters threatened by Daenerys' power and strength as ruler.

William the Conqueror would have never done something so stupid as Dany agreeing to help Jon and the North before they bent the knee and certainly, would never tolerate a rival to his claim to the throne. Instead of being worried about Jon, Dany should demand he renounce his claim and marry her or she will take her people and leave the north to their fate. But nope, she has grovel to these lesser people because she is "in love." Ridiculous.

Edited March 27, 2019 by SimoneS

[GraceK]

Just now, SimoneS said:

All to prop up the patriarchy and their women supporters threatened by Daenerys' power and strength as ruler.

And Sansa  thinking that it’s Danys evil vagina that’s manipulating him and  Arya thinking that Jons thinking with his penis is all extremely insulting to everyone involved. 

Hopefully they are just promoting all this soap opera bullshit to hype up the general audience because 🤦🏻‍♀️🤮

[BadAssRobinArryn]

True, but comparisons with real word history are only helpful up to a certain point. William the Conqueror likely didn't see an army of zombies trying to wipe out humanity.

[anamika]

Tyrion gets a separate cover. They should have put him with Jaime/Cersei - then we would have the three final houses.

I wonder if they will put a dragon next to Kit's name in the credits now.

Edited March 27, 2019 by anamika

[joliefaire]

1 minute ago, anamika said:

I wonder if they will put a dragon next to Kit's name in the credits now.

Oh, I never even thought of that!  Now I can't wait to see if they do!  Or, perhaps a wolf and a dragon?  Can't wait!

[Happy Harpy]

48 minutes ago, nikma said:

They won't. But I don't think Jaime will agree to kill Cersei after she gives birth.

He won't let them kill her, no matter the pregnancy.

But maybe Jaime will be dead when the question asks itself.

35 minutes ago, whateverdgaf said:

NCW has done a great job so far of showing his conflict facially, I'm hoping he will have a chance to let it all out, like he did with Brienne and the bath. 

I'm looking forward to it (I've said many times, I'm afraid, that the bath scene is what sucked me into GoT). I hope he won't be robbed of an Emmy this time.

43 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

My speculation is that Jaime goes to see Cersei to try to get her to surrender for the sake of their child, only to discover that she has had a miscarriage causing her to lose any remaining restraint she has ever had. Rather than surrender and give up the Iron Throne, Cersei just wants "to watch the world burn"  so in rage Jaime chokes her to death. The Mountain kills Jaime while Brienne watches in horror. The Hound and his brother fight to the death. 

It's also possible. I was afraid for the longest time that Cersei treacherously killing Brienne would make Jaime snap.

Now, I think it would be ironic if Cersei was right about one thing, Tyrion being the Valonqar.

[Happy Harpy]

21 minutes ago, GraceK said:

And Sansa  thinking that it’s Danys evil vagina that’s manipulating him and  Arya thinking that Jons thinking with his penis is all extremely insulting to everyone involved. 

Hopefully they are just promoting all this soap opera bullshit to hype up the general audience because 🤦🏻‍♀️🤮

To be fair, it's Maisie who said that Jon is thinking with his penis. We don't know yet if Arya agrees on this particular point -and since she can read faces, she shouldn't believe Political!Dany.

[GraceK]

Just now, Happy Harpy said:

To be fair, it's Maisie who said that Jon is thinking with his penis. We don't know yet if Arya agrees on this particular point -and since she can read faces, she shouldn't believe Political!Dany.

Good point . Wow that was a Freudian slip 😆 This emphasis on the “ women’s “ bickering though just frustrates me 😂

[Happy Harpy]

Just now, GraceK said:

Good point . Wow that was a Freudian slip 😆 This emphasis on the “ women’s “ bickering though just frustrates me 😂

And the PR machine, with actors trolling, misleading, hinting through the prism of their own interpretation makes it quite hard to keep track.

[Colorful Mess]

27 minutes ago, ursula said:

And again, you're looking at it from the fan's perspective. Characters aren't complex or simple for a writer because a writer creates characters. Again, fans look for themes. Writers look for inspiration. A writer will enjoy writing the intricacy of a complicated plot or all the sides of a multi-faceted characters as long as they're inspired to. 

You would rather pontificate about his process and read the tea leaves on that, than actually try to understand what he writes in his work, or even ponder what he says in interviews. Apparently that's just "wind."

It sounds like an excuse to not think deeper and hope that he's just writing fluffy stories about the superhuman dragon people and all the villains they stared down.

More likely, the god-complex that the Targaryens have is a fascinating subject; he could be inspired to say something about that. Like hubris? An important motif back to the Greeks? The pure blood special people who can fly are inherently better than the sad, pitiful earth-bound mortals who have to walk around in the mud. There's Icarus, Oedipus, Ozymandias, and Dido in the background of F&B. When I read about Jaehaerys and the Doctrine of Exceptionalism, that sealed their fate. Pride goes before a fall. 

This is important to watch in S8 to see if Dany's pride is wounded and how she handles it. Because "pride" was something she accused Jon of having. Does she take her army and dragons and go to Essos like a kid on the playground? Does she confront a situation where she's "just like everyone else," aka "not extraordinary anymore"? Because that fits with the ideology of the Targaryens, that they are above mere mortals because they are The Best.

[spaceghostess]

48 minutes ago, anamika said:

I wonder if they will put a dragon next to Kit's name in the credits now.

 

I'm deeply embarrassed to admit this, but I only noticed that the doohickeys next to peoples' names in the credits were sigils 3/4 of the way through my rewatch last month. D'oh!

Edited March 27, 2019 by spaceghostess

[nikma]

Isaac said in new Australian article posted on FF that people who want classical storytelling conclusion won't be happy about the last season.

https://pixhost.to/gallery/5bRph

Edited March 27, 2019 by nikma