Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[Happy Harpy]

1 minute ago, GrailKing said:

I ignored those, they were opposite of what they gave us in show, in the ATE and BTS shorts.

also many in interview went against them; are they lying ? maybe, but what I saw was different then those scripts.

Looking at my posts in the S7 episode threads, you'll find that I saw exactly (or almost) what those scripts said. So yes, it was onscreen.

And that's what I meant, actors have their interpretation but those aren't facts, when the facts are written in black and white.

2 minutes ago, screamin said:

And if Robb fell for Margaery Tyrell while idealizing all Margaery Tyrell's drawbacks as nonexistent because he loves her, that still would be fair game for his family to comment on as an issue. I don't see it as unfair that Sansa - or even Arya - point out things they might think he's overlooking, because they aren't in love with Dany.

Except that nothing Jon might be "overlooking" pertaining to Daenerys has any importance in face of complete annihilation by the AOTD, which is certain without her and her armies.

The Lannisters is another business, but Daenerys is also an ally against Cersei so it makes even less sense to object to Jon choosing her.

[Smad]

4 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

Looking at my posts in the S7 episode threads, you'll find that I saw exactly (or almost) what those scripts said. So yes, it was onscreen.

And that's what I meant, actors have their interpretation but those aren't facts, when the facts are written in black and white.

And that poster saw something different from you. So did I. So did others. Everyone's perception is different and that includes actors. Doesn't prove anyone right, just proves POV varies and is often influenced by different things (including character hate/love). And since they were even hiding the truth in the scripts, I wouldn't trust a damn thing written in them.

[Happy Harpy]

3 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

Well, Ned was naive and trusted the wrong people, and he died because of it. I'm fairly certain Ned and Robb are on Sansa and Arya's minds as they contemplate Jon. 

Sansa was naive and trusted the wrong people, and had she been a man she'd have died because of it. Because she was a woman, she was "only" horribly abused. She should have her own mistakes on her mind before casting the stone.

Moreover, Daenerys isn't the wrong person. She proved it by risking her life and losing her dragon for Jon and by pledging to fight for his cause/the North. She seems to prove it again, in 8x01, by seeing the big picture and not taking back her armies and her dragons as the Northern lords and Sansa have the audacity to complain and be frosty to her whereas she brings help they're in dire need of.

[screamin]

2 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

Looking at my posts in the S7 episode threads, you'll find that I saw exactly (or almost) what those scripts said. So yes, it was onscreen.

And that's what I meant, actors have their interpretation but those aren't facts, when the facts are written in black and white.

Except that nothing Jon might be "overlooking" pertaining to Daenerys has any importance in face of complete annihilation by the AOTD, which is certain without her and her armies.

The Lannisters is another business, but Daenerys is also an ally against Cersei so it makes even less sense to object to Jon choosing her.

The problem is, there's a Lannister who's also the Queen's Hand - which is an issue that Jon might minimize both because of his previous friendly relationship with Tyrion and because his beloved's trust in Tyrion might lead Jon to accept her judgement in his trustworthiness uncritically. 

[Minneapple]

9 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

Sansa was naive and trusted the wrong people, and had she been a man she'd have died because of it. Because she was a woman, she was "only" horribly abused. She should have her own mistakes on her mind before casting the stone.

Moreover, Daenerys isn't the wrong person. She proved it by risking her life and losing her dragon for Jon and by pledging to fight for his cause/the North. She seems to prove it again, in 8x01, by seeing the big picture and not taking back her armies and her dragons as the Northern lords and Sansa have the audacity to complain and be frosty to her whereas she brings help they're in dire need of.

I don't think Sansa's casting any stones. She was also naive and trusted the wrong people and lost her direwolf and was raped and abused...that's also why she's worried about Jon doing the same thing. She doesn't want him to repeat hers and Ned's and Robb's mistakes.

Again, it's perfectly fair for Arya and Sansa to question Jon's decision making. He didn't bend the knee because he was forced to. He bent the knee because Dany came swooping in with her dragons to save him and he realized he was in love with her. In this world, that is an INSANE and quite a naive reason to bend the knee. 

Edited March 25, 2019 by Minneapple

[nikma]

34 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

Once more, Jon is a king. A king can consult his vassals, but they don't have a say.

Autocratic rule has its consequences.

[nikma]

20 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

Except that nothing Jon might be "overlooking" pertaining to Daenerys has any importance in face of complete annihilation by the AOTD, which is certain without her and her armies.

But the point is, her and her armies would still be at WF even if Jon didn't give up his title. She said in S7E6 that they are going to destroy NK together even before Jon gave her the North. 

[bubble sparkly]

Sansa and Arya might seem more reasonable if they actually expended even one second of effort in order to investigate Dany and see if she is trustworthy or a Mad Queen. 3ER Bran is right there and so far neither girl has asked Bran to “look” and get some intel on her. Arya is apparently a human lie detector yet she has not even asked Dany one basic question to “test” her. It makes the Stark girls look dumb and lazy.

Although I guess this does finally finally prove that the Starks aren’t “better” than any of the other families. They are as equally untrusting, bitter, backstabbing and full of infighting as the Lannisters et al lol.

ETA: Also, the Stark girls don’t know that Jon didn’t bend the knee until after Dany agreed to go North. But at the end of the day, I’m sure this is all just manufactured drama to keep things ticking along until the ep 3 battle. The survivors of the battle will probably come together with Team Dany and present a united front to go South etc.

Edited March 25, 2019 by bubble sparkly

[GraceK]

8 minutes ago, bubble sparkly said:

Sansa and Arya might seem more reasonable if they actually expended even one second of effort in order to investigate Dany and see if she is trustworthy or a Mad Queen. 3ER Bran is right there and so far neither girl has asked Bran to “look” and get some intel on her. Arya is apparently a human lie detector yet she has not even asked Dany one basic question to “test” her. It makes the Stark girl’s look dumb and lazy.

Although I guess this does finally finally prove that the Starks aren’t “better” than any of the other families. They are as equally untrusting, bitter, backstabbing and full of infighting as the Lannisters et al lol.

Seriously it says a lot when Jaime Lannister of all people is willing to work along side Dany and willingly come into Winterfell knowing what kind of reception to expect. Really, Jon, Jaime , Tyrion And Daenarys seem to be the only mature people right now , or at least the “ bigger picture “ people . The Starks and the North are looking mighty petulant and bratty in comparison. 

So far anyway....it remains  to be seen how it translates on screen. 

So far we have nothing but assumptions and nothing concrete. 

Edited March 25, 2019 by GraceK

[nikma]

2 minutes ago, GraceK said:

So far we have nothing but assumptions and nothing concrete. 

This

[Minneapple]

5 minutes ago, bubble sparkly said:

ETA: Also, the Stark girls don’t know that Jon didn’t bend the knee until after Dany agreed to go North.

That's why Sansa is asking Jon if he bent the knee out of necessity or out of love.

As for the rest of your post, yeah. But none of the characters act like Bran's power exists until the writing deems it so. Why can't they all just go to Bran and be all, "Hey, Branbot, give us the answers we need." That would make things a whole lot easier. I'm hoping we get some more answers about Bran's powers and how and when they can be used.

[Lemuria]

52 minutes ago, screamin said:

I don't see it as unfair that Sansa - or even Arya - point out things they might think he's overlooking, because they aren't in love with Dany.

Well, there's a flip side to that coin, isn't there?  How much of Sansa's dislike of Dany and/or Jon's choice has to do with her ego, her not-so-secret desire to be large and in charge?  To be the QITN?  Do you think everything Littlefinger said fell on deaf ears?  I don't. 

She's demonstrated any number of times that she isn't nearly as smart or politically savvy as she thinks or as the show would have us believe.  Challenging the king in front of his "court"?  Guaranteed to get you a rebuke at the very least, and to ensure that he now cannot give you what you want without appearing weak.

Betraying your army by keeping another army secret so that (according to the actress who plays the part) you can play at being the hero of the day?  To me, it clearly shows that she still doesn't understand the loyalty issue at all.

And if she's a savvy player of the game then did she really expect Dany to come to the North's rescue and not expect fealty in return?  Even if Dany proved, once she recognized the true danger, she would put her ambitions temporarily on hold and come to the aid of the North first, did Sansa really think Dany would not expect fealty afterward?  So what then?  Assuming the good guys won and the AoTD was wiped out, along with the WW and the NK, was Sansa intending to say, "Hey, thanks, lady with the two dragons and 50,000 soldiers, and don't let the castle gate hit you in the tush on the way out?"

Did Sansa think the North would have been in a position to demand concessions?  I think she would have been in for a big surprise, if she did.

As for Jon's making the choice on his own, well, yeah.  He's the King.  It kinda has to count for something.  Leaving aside the fact that it isn't possible in Westeros to exchange harsh messages and snarling emojis at the speed of light, Jon recognized the fact--as did Tormen centuries earlier--that if the North, and Dany and her armies, both survive the fight, then it would be Tormen Redux, no matter what the idiot Northerners thought.  He just chose to return upfront Dany's gesture of good faith with the one he would end up having to give anyway.

Robb's failed to put his people first.  Contrary to whatever Sansa, and possibly Arya, choose to think, saving his people--and all the people of Westeros--was and is Jon's mission first and foremost, IMO.

Edited March 25, 2019 by Lemuria

[Cujoy]

I bet this whole conflict between characters (because drama) is all cleared up by episode 3.  Dany will win their trust in time for the big battle.  Maybe Tyrion will as well, or not, given the Tyrion spoilers.

Maisie is a huge Sophie fan because they are such close friends, she's just being a bit of a cheerleader for her bestie.  That's my take, anyway.  

[Happy Harpy]

37 minutes ago, Smad said:

And since they were even hiding the truth in the scripts, I wouldn't trust a damn thing written in them.

Scripts are facts.

36 minutes ago, screamin said:

The problem is, there's a Lannister who's also the Queen's Hand - which is an issue that Jon might minimize both because of his previous friendly relationship with Tyrion and because his beloved's trust in Tyrion might lead Jon to accept her judgement in his trustworthiness uncritically. 

Except that according to Friki's leaks, Dany's hand and his identity isn't Sansa's problem. She doesn't question that. She objects to Jon bending the knee to Daenerys, and doing it for love. She's pissed off about the Northern independence.

30 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

Not if Dany loses another dragon and more troops in the Battle of Winterfell. Then suddenly the odds are more in Cersei's favor.

Again, it's perfectly fair for Arya and Sansa to question Jon's decision making. He didn't bend the knee because he was forced to. He bent the knee because Dany came swooping in with her dragons to save him and he realized he was in love with her. In this world, that is an INSANE and quite a naive reason to bend the knee. 

I don't think Sansa's casting any stones. She was also naive and trusted the wrong people and lost her direwolf and was raped and abused...that's also why she's worried about Jon doing the same thing. She doesn't want him to repeat hers and Ned's and Robb's mistakes.

Yes, Dany is going to lose troops in the WF battle, to defend the North. Would it be better if she stayed in Dragonstone, letting everybody die including Sansa, so that she'll keep her full power; or if she went on fighting Cersei and let the North fend for itself? No, and it makes her the right person.

That's what Jon saw, a queen worthy of his trust and respect. It isn't insane nor naïve, because it was based on her actions, on facts, not on her words. Who cares if he's also in love with her, since she's what the North needs?

Sansa never said "I made mistakes" when arguing with Jon in 7x01. She only talked about Robb and Ned's mistakes and how they were stupid so yes, she's casting the stone.

26 minutes ago, nikma said:

Autocratic rule has its consequences.

Yeah, Jon is just like Joffrey. 😂

23 minutes ago, nikma said:

But the point is, her and her armies would still be at WF even if Jon didn't give up his title. She said in S7E6 that they are going to destroy NK together even before Jon gave her the North. 

And the point is, it doesn't matter. Titles like KITN don't matter anymore. The North doesn't matter because after 8x03, if there's a little left of it, it will be thanks to Daenerys' armies and dragons.

14 minutes ago, GraceK said:

So far anyway....it remains  to be seen how it translates on screen. 

Exactly. Maisie didn't specify why Arya was calling out Jon and it could be something that makes sense. *fingers crossed*

Edited March 25, 2019 by Happy Harpy

[nikma]

4 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

Yeah, Jon is just like Joffrey. 😂

No one said that. But if you are making big decisions alone, you have to expect that a  lot of people won't be happy about it. 

4 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

And the point is, it doesn't matter. Titles like KITN don't matter anymore.

If titles don't matter why Daenerys' condition for helping North was that Jon recognize her title? This was before she saw AOTD. 

Edited March 25, 2019 by nikma

[Smad]

3 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

Scripts are facts.

No they are not. Not when it's been proven that even in the script they hide the true story they supposedly want to tell, they in fact aren't facts. The only thing that's facts is what's actually on screen. And those on screen facts can be interpreted differently, sure, but the finished product is all that counts as 'facts'.

[Smad]

16 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

But none of the characters act like Bran's power exists until the writing deems it so. Why can't they all just go to Bran and be all, "Hey, Branbot, give us the answers we need." That would make things a whole lot easier. I'm hoping we get some more answers about Bran's powers and how and when they can be used.

Bran's very presence makes any character conflicts nonsensical and pointless. Just ask Bran what you need to know. Can Cersei be trusted and is her army coming to help us? Is Tyrion trying to betray us? And so on and so forth. Character conflict doesn't work with an all-knowing entity right there. It only achieves to make all the conflicts a waste of time.

[Happy Harpy]

1 minute ago, nikma said:

No one said that. But if you are making big decisions alone, you have to expect that a  lot of people won't be happy about it. 

If titles don't matter why Daenerys' condition for helping North was that Jon recognize her title? This was before she saw AOTD. 

@Lemuria explained perfectly why Jon was entitled to make this decision, imo. 

Precisely, Daenerys' condition for helping the North was before she saw the AOTD. After she believed in the reality of the threat, it didn't matter to her anymore that Jon recognized her title.

1 minute ago, Smad said:

The only thing that's facts is what's actually on screen. And those on screen facts can be interpreted differently, sure, but the finished product is all that counts as 'facts'.

And the scripts only confirmed what I saw in the finished product. So there's no point in continuing this conversation 🙂

[glowbug]

I don’t think Jon bent the knee because he was in love with Dany. I think he bent the knee because he truly thought she was worthy of being queen (he outright says she deserves it) and thought it was the right thing to do. Those qualities, which in his opinion make her worthy of being queen, are also the reason he falls in love with her.

The scripts for season 7, which show the writers’ intent, say that Arya was right about Sansa wanting power. Sansa was conflicted over her own ambitions and family loyalty, but in the end she chooses family. Once Sansa chooses family over personal ambition, Arya begins to respect her and is able to recognize her strengths. Season 7 puts to rest any question about Sansa’s loyalty to her family. While the leaks indicate she challenges Jon’s decision making (rightly or wrongly) there doesn’t seem to be any indication that she is considering making a grab for power.

I really hope that Arya siding with Sansa is in regard to Cersei because I think it would be out of character for her not to. She doesn’t like or trust Cersei anymore than Sansa does. Of course, once Jaime arrives and tells them that Cersei has betrayed them there isn’t much to argue over on that front. Sansa (and probably Arya) will have been proven right about Cersei. And once the army of the dead arrive on their doorstep and Dany fights with the North, I don’t think anyone will care about challenging her claim to the north, and if they survive they’ll probably all get behind her. I fully expect by episode 4 that the Stark siblings and their Targaryen cousin will be united. It just seems we have to put up with a couple episodes of conflict between them before we can be done with it. 

Edited March 25, 2019 by glowbug

[nikma]

9 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

Precisely, Daenerys' condition for helping the North was before she saw the AOTD. After she believed in the reality of the threat, it didn't matter to her anymore that Jon recognized her title.

Well, that's what Sansa asks him in E1. Did he recognized her because he wants an ally or becuase he is in love.  It was unnecessary move on his part. 

[nikma]

39 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

As for Jon's making the choice on his own, well, yeah.  He's the King.  It kinda has to count for something.

Yes, he is the King, and Sansa is lady of WF. And Jon was a king elected not long ago, without birth right and with very fragile support. So it would be smart for him not to make unpopular decisions. 

Sansa was afraid that some Northern lords will use her latter to Cersei as an excuse to turn their backs on them again and then Jon made this reckless decision. 

[MarySNJ]

On 3/21/2019 at 8:03 PM, Wouter said:

Nothing very surprising otherwise. Tyrion defending Cersei seems to point towards Friki's (late season) leaks maybe being Tyrion, but as it seems hard to believe Tyrion would lie deliberately (Friki may think this is the case because he is counting on his Tyrion trial leak being correct) I don't see it as anything near confirmation. The jury is still out on that one. It does bode ill for Tyrion even if he is not lying though, considering that Jaime will probably tell them all next episode, and Cersei may attack Winterfell after that. Her attitude in ep1 "let them kill each other" seems to point against a rash and very risky offensive by her own troops against the north, though. She could attack after the battle with the NK though, when Dany's armies will presumably at their weakest, especially if part of it may be chasing retiring White Walkers.

 

Maybe Tyrion is lying to himself because he believes in his own power of persuasion. I love Tyrion but he is not devoid of a bit of Lannister arrogance. Jaime made the same mistake in believing Cersei. He believed that he could trust the woman he loved. It's funny that the two men who are kin to Cersei and should know her best seem to be so easily deceived by her.

I doubt that Cersei is going to waste her investment in the Golden Company by sending them to attack Winterfell while the AotD and Northern allies are fighting each other. They would end up fighting the AotD and I can't believe they would risk fighting a seemingly unbeatable enemy for any amount of gold. I think Cersei is counting on all her enemies being destroyed or at least reduced to such a small number that the remnants can easily be defeated afterwards. If she thinks the AotD will stop in the North, she's just as delusional as her brothers in her own way.

[Lemuria]

32 minutes ago, nikma said:

So it would be smart for him not to make unpopular decisions. 

Sansa was afraid that some Northern lords will use her latter to Cersei as an excuse to turn their backs on them again and then Jon made this reckless decision. 

I don't thinks it's possible for a King to make nothing but popular decisions.  Not if he is more than a puppet.  Jon didn't ask to be King; the others chose to put him in the hot seat.  He's doing what he's supposed to be doing:  making the hard decisions. 

I think it was Burke who said (and I'm paraphrasing badly, I admit) that a leader (or, in a more democratic society, a representative) owes his people his best judgment, and he fails them if he sacrifices that to their opinions.

And Jon is supposed to tread lightly around the Northern lords because Sansa's afraid her history might be held against her?  That's something she's going to have to deal with, isn't it?

IMO, Jon did what he thought was best and for his belief that Danaerys would make a good queen of the seven kingdoms.  

Edited March 25, 2019 by Lemuria

[Happy Harpy]

7 minutes ago, MarySNJ said:

I doubt that Cersei is going to waste her investment in the Golden Company by sending them to attack Winterfell while the AotD and Northern allies are fighting each other. They would end up fighting the AotD and I can't believe they would risk fighting a seemingly unbeatable enemy for any amount of gold. I think Cersei is counting on all her enemies being destroyed or at least reduced to such a small number that the remnants can easily be defeated afterwards. If she thinks the AotD will stop in the North, she's just as delusional as her brothers in her own way.

Cersei is delusional. I think she's in a kind of fugue state since Tommen's death, seeing herself as Tywin reborn. Even Jaime realized she was beyond reach or saving, imo.

As of 8x01, it's still her plan (following LF's advice about the Boltons and Stannis) to stay put and wait until her enemies are weakened. I'd tend to think that she bet on Dany's dragons to win by a hair, since after all, they're the more powerful weapon conceivable in a Westerosi mind. Even after she learns about the night dragon, the numbers are still in Dany's favor with her two.

I've always thought that sending the GC North didn't make sense, and the GC accepting to go North made even less sense. If the GC does end up there though, it will be in 8x03 so the seeds should be planted in 8x02. I'm most curious about this plot point, so I hope to get some 8x02 leaks, too.

[Advance35]

Quote

I think some fans wanted Starks to be this big happy family after reunion, but that's not happening. There are a lot of issues between them. I have no problem with that, I find that it fits their established characterisation. 

This is my feeling on the matter.  Do they need Dany? Yes.  Is the surrender and subjugation of the North already a done deal? Yes, Jon saw to that.  Do they have to like it? They certainly don't.   It appears Sansa does her duty, "Winterfell is your's your grace."  Does she want Dany to get eaten by an Ice Dragon, Yes.  She has to do it (bend the knee, since Jon did) she does not have to like it;

As for why Jon bent the knee. He's in love with her.  If he were as practical as everyone says, he would have lied to Cersei and said The North will stay out of any conflict, assuming they all survive.  But he couldn't, he wanted everyone to know that Dany has the North, VIA him.

As for a marriage solving all of the problems about who has the power?  That' what the entire show has been about.  Marriage is just another arena for Power Struggles.  Look at the Baratheon/Lannister marriages, Lannister/Tyrell marriages, Sansa's marriage to Ramsay (they were very much enemies).  I think Sansa, out of everyone left alive, knows marriage does not mean you are on the same side.

If Jon and Dany announce marriage, I don't expect Sansa to feel a sense of reassurance about House Stark's future.

Edited March 25, 2019 by Advance35

[GraceK]

11 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

I've always thought that sending the GC North didn't make sense, and the GC accepting to go North made even less sense. If the GC does end up there though, it will be in 8x03 so the seeds should be planted in 8x02. I'm most curious about this plot point, so I hope to get some 8x02 leaks, too.

I’m wondering a few things about this myself. 

Theories include::: what if she decided to send the GC to Winterfell as a feint , to fight with them against the AOTD and then have them attack Jon and Danys forces when they are victorious?

theory 2:: She sends them to attack Winterfell before Jaime gets there to warn them of her betrayal and to possibly catch them off guard and take a valuable hostage ( Sansa), so in the event Jon and Dany do win against the AOTD, she has a bargaining tool? 

Theory 3:: she has a miscarriage in episode 2 and goes cuckoo bananas, hears Jaime is with Brienne at Winterfell and says fuck it, BURN THEM ALL and sends the GC to attack and try to take out all her enemies in one spot.

Theory 4:: Euron goes rogue and takes the GC to Winterfell against her orders .

Edited March 25, 2019 by GraceK

[Minneapple]

1 hour ago, Lemuria said:

Well, there's a flip side to that coin, isn't there?  How much of Sansa's dislike of Dany and/or Jon's choice has to do with her ego, her not-so-secret desire to be large and in charge?  To be the QITN?  Do you think everything Littlefinger said fell on deaf ears?  I don't. 

I don't know if everything Littlefinger said fell on deaf ears, but I do think this plot is over, just as the friction between the sisters is over. D&D have written some stupid things, but Sansa conniving to usurp Jon and become queen would take the cake. She was instrumental in making Jon king in the North, she's all "rah rah Starks North Winterfell," and she and Arya are by all accounts on the same side now. As much as they're BFFs, I don't think Arya would appreciate Sansa trying to stage some coup against Jon.

Quote

And if she's a savvy player of the game then did she really expect Dany to come to the North's rescue and not expect fealty in return?  

Dany didn't expect fealty in return. 

Quote

As for Jon's making the choice on his own, well, yeah.  He's the King.  It kinda has to count for something.  

From everything we have seen, Jon's not exactly the kind of king who goes "BOW TO ME, SUBJECTS, AND DO AS I SAY." A heads-up by way of a raven to Sansa about bending the knee wouldn't have been relegating his authority or anything.

I admit, I did want Team Stark and Stark family feels. I like the sisters being sisterly. I want them to, like, get BFF necklaces and for Sansa to bake lemoncakes for them to share and for Arya to give Sansa swordfighting lessons and teach her to wear trousers. And then Sansa teases Arya about Gendry. But Team Stark is where I'm at so it hurts a little bit that we won't get there right away.

[Leila6]

Ugh. I’m just hoping Sansa (and now Arya, I guess) aren’t nearly as annoying in S8 as I expect them to be. Otherwise I’m going to be doing a lot of fast-forwarding through their scenes on rewatch. 

[GrailKing]

4 minutes ago, GraceK said:

I’m wondering a few things about this myself. 

Theories include::: what if she decided to send the GC to Winterfell as a feint , to fight with them against the AOTD and then have them attack Jon and Danys forces when they are victorious?

theory 2:: She sends them to attack Winterfell before Jaime gets there to warn them of her betrayal and to possibly catch them off guard and take a valuable hostage ( Sansa), so in the event Jon and Dany do win against the AOTD, she has a bargaining tool? 

Theory 3:: she has a miscarriage in episode 2 and goes cuckoo bananas, hears Jaime is with Brienne at Winterfell and says fuck it, BURN THEM ALL and sends the GC to attack and try to take out all her enemies in one spot.

Theory 4:: Euron goes rogue and takes the GC to Winterfell against her orders .

I'm going this way myself, going more with 4,3,2

[Minneapple]

12 minutes ago, GraceK said:

I’m wondering a few things about this myself. 

Theories include::: what if she decided to send the GC to Winterfell as a feint , to fight with them against the AOTD and then have them attack Jon and Danys forces when they are victorious?

theory 2:: She sends them to attack Winterfell before Jaime gets there to warn of them of her betrayal and to possibly catch them off guard and take a valuable hostage ( Sansa), so in the event Jon and Dany do win against the AOTD, she has a bargaining tool? 

Theory 3:: she has a miscarriage in episode 2 and goes cuckoo bananas, hears Jaime is Brienne at Winterfell and says fuck it, BURN THEM ALL and sends the GC to attack and try to take out all her enemies in one spot.



Theory 4:: Euron goes rogue and takes the GC to Winterfell against her orders .

Hmmm. These are interesting theories. Maybe combine them? I don't think the GC gets to Winterfell before Jaime, though.

But Cersei was already cuckoo. Crazed for power.

[nikma]

36 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

I don't thinks it's possible for a King to make nothing but popular decisions. 

I don't think that Jon's decision was wrong. I just think it is bizarre to expect that no one will question it and everyone should be Dany's fanboy the moment she comes to WF.

38 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

IMO, Jon did what he thought was best and for his belief that Danaerys would make a good queen of the seven kingdoms.  

Yes, and not everyone agrees that giving up the North was the best way to go. Sansa, Arya and rest also have their ideas what is best for the North.  

[screamin]

1 hour ago, Lemuria said:

As for Jon's making the choice on his own, well, yeah.  He's the King.  It kinda has to count for something.  

That's just the problem. He's NOT King anymore. He gave up the title himself, that they had bestowed on him with no little cost in their own blood. He can't expect the respect for his decisions due to the King when he just demoted himself to Warden of the North. He's earned the blowback.

56 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

That's what Jon saw, a queen worthy of his trust and respect. It isn't insane nor naïve, because it was based on her actions, on facts, not on her words. Who cares if he's also in love with her, since she's what the North needs?

Yes, Jon saw that. Yes, she's what the North needs. But he's also in love, and that IS affecting his judgement, IMO...not because he's fundamentally  wrong about her, but because he assumes everyone will see what he sees in her, when he's made absolutely NO effort to convey it to them.

"Yes, you've been so wonderful, I'll bend the knee, come to the North as our queen, everyone will love you." No they won't. They didn't go through what he went through with her, he's not told them of it, why should they love her as he does? And now, the news about the Tarlys will shock and frighten everyone - as per the leaks, it will even shock JON - which also shows he's idealized her because he's in love with her. 

Lemuria remarked that Jon bending the knee to Dany is inevitable anyway because she has dragons and an army and will therefore inevitably conquer. This is true are far as it goes (though Qyburn's crossbow shows that even dragons aren't invulnerable). But it makes a great deal of difference to a conquered people whether their conquerer is the kind who will leave pyramids of skulls in their wake...the Targaryens have had that kind. If Jon had brought Dany as an ally, showing her might AND her graciousness in allying herself with them instead of demanding their surrender in their weakness, she could have allayed that fear and reassured the North that their eventual ruler was humane and forebearing. Jon pre-empted that by surrendering. It was a miscalculation in his part, that may cost the North dearly.

You may say that the North deserves whatever they get for not blindly trusting in Jon and bending over with a smile. But Jon agreed to be the king of that crowd, and he therefore agreed to take responsibility for them all. He should know by now, after his stint as Lord Commander of the Watch, that crowds are easily frightened, and are dangerous when they panic.

[MarySNJ]

32 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

Cersei is delusional. I think she's in a kind of fugue state since Tommen's death, seeing herself as Tywin reborn. Even Jaime realized she was beyond reach or saving, imo.

As of 8x01, it's still her plan (following LF's advice about the Boltons and Stannis) to stay put and wait until her enemies are weakened. I'd tend to think that she bet on Dany's dragons to win by a hair, since after all, they're the more powerful weapon conceivable in a Westerosi mind. Even after she learns about the night dragon, the numbers are still in Dany's favor with her two.

I've always thought that sending the GC North didn't make sense, and the GC accepting to go North made even less sense. If the GC does end up there though, it will be in 8x03 so the seeds should be planted in 8x02. I'm most curious about this plot point, so I hope to get some 8x02 leaks, too.

If the Friki-leaks are true, then Cersei seems content to "let them kill each other". At least to start, I take that to mean she will bide her time and preserve her resources. Now, after the battle at Winterfell, regardless of the outcome (Northern allies win or lose), maybe she'll dispatch the Golden Company up to the Neck to prevent the remaining Northern forces from coming South. She's definitely delusional, but I'm not sure she's completely lost her mind - yet. If she miscarries, then I can see her losing it. 

All that being said, D&D don't always do what I think makes narrative sense, so anything is possible. 

[nikma]

32 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

This is my feeling on the matter.  Do they need Dany? Yes.  Is the surrender and subjugation of the North already a done deal? Yes, Jon saw to that.  Do they have to like it? They certainly don't.

This is the point I'm strying to make, but since Dany and Jon are the most popular characters in this fandom, everyone who disagrees with them will bi criticized. Even Arya.

Sansa is not betraying Jon, she is doing her duty and she follows his orders. 

She has every right to think what he did wasn't great and there were better options for this alliance. And I think a lot of Jon and Dany's fans use this straw man argument where they criticize people in the North for being against the alliance. That's not true. They knew Jon wanted to make a pact with Dany since S7E2. They just don't like the way he did it. 

[nikma]

36 minutes ago, GraceK said:

Theory 3:: she has a miscarriage in episode 2 and goes cuckoo bananas, hears Jaime is with Brienne at Winterfell and says fuck it, BURN THEM ALL and sends the GC to attack and try to take out all her enemies in one spot.

I expect something like this. It will be like Hitler's attack on Russia. She will lose her mind when she loses another child and be like "the only reason I live at this point is to watch everyone die before me, and then I can just kill myself and end this misery". 

Edited March 25, 2019 by nikma

[GraceK]

Got this from Freefolk thought it was funny 😆 😂😂😂

[nikma]

40 minutes ago, GraceK said:

Theory 4:: Euron goes rogue and takes the GC to Winterfell against her orders .

This is possible, but it just feels like those theories that Selyse will kill Shireen behind Stannis' back. It makes sense within the story, but it's not the best option from the writing perspective.

Cersei  is the main character here, and CG's attack in the North will be a major move, so it has to her decision, not Euron's, who is just secondary character, at best. 

[anamika]

I guess Jon's dick is the only being in the North sensible enough to not want to get killed by White walkers.

D&D looking at writing Jon-Arya for next season...Hmm. How do we make it about Sansa somehow? I was expecting this. Not surprised.

Arya, episode 2 - Jon is thinking with his dick.

Arya, episode 3 - Maybe Jon was right!

At this point, Jon would be better off leaving the Starks to fight the AOTD - they seem to be the experts -  and taking off with his boo and her dragons to Essos and just relaxing. Dany should take her Dothraki and her Unsullied to warmer climes. These guys don't deserve to suffer from the cold and die fighting the AOTD for these fools in the North.

Of course this could also be Maisie stanning for Sansa as usual. Last season she called Arya a villainous monster who was being unfairly cruel to poor, good Sansa. And as we saw from the scripts, this was not what the show was going for.  Maisie's opinions are colored by her love for Sophie, so we will have to wait and see how the Jon-Arya disagreement is framed.

The thing these characters don't seem to be understanding is that Jon has made a temporary alliance with Cersei to fight against the AOTD. After that he will be fighting AGAINST Cersei with Dany. This alliance with Cersei is transient  - and soon Jaime is going to get there and let them know that Cersei is not coming.  And they need Dany.

But whatever at this point. Two more episodes of pointless drama when dead people are literally marching on them.

Edited March 26, 2019 by anamika

[MarySNJ]

9 hours ago, GraceK said:

We could also be looking at the Tyrion betrayal theory all wrong. With all of the theories that have gone around about what “ unexpected ending that everyone got wrong “, what I haven’t heard much is one where Cersei lives. Maybe Tyrion helps her get the hell out dodge and as a result someone dies on TeamStark. 🤷🏻‍♀️ That could be a betrayal that really doesn’t require a retcon of anything he has done, it just continues to show that   He doesn’t want her dead. If Jorah, or Gilly, or Missendi or someone innocent accidentally dies while Cersei escapes, or If Cersei is responsible for killing someone on Team good guy or Attacking Winterfell and Tyrion still decides to help her escape to Essos or whatever towards the end, that could be enough of a betrayal. If Jaime is dead in battle, maybe he feels she’s his last relative left and doesn’t want her to die. 🤷🏻‍♀️ Who knows. 

It doesn’t have to be something twisted and horrible he has done, just a remaining sliver of loyalty to his sister that helps her survive. I feel better about that that having him be secretly undermining Dany for seasons or shady backroom deals or giving up Sansa or something that betrays his character arc.

I can see it. Tyrion exemplifies "the human heart in conflict with itself". He hates his sister. He pities his sister. He hates his family legacy. He's proud of his family legacy. He loves Daenerys. He fears Daenerys. He respects Jon Snow. He's jealous of Jon Snow. 

I can see Tyrion being a mix of complex emotions about all of these people and a fateful decision that leads to unforeseen consequences, and ultimately his death. 

[Happy Harpy]

1 hour ago, GraceK said:

I’m wondering a few things about this myself. 

Theories include::: what if she decided to send the GC to Winterfell as a feint , to fight with them against the AOTD and then have them attack Jon and Danys forces when they are victorious?

theory 2:: She sends them to attack Winterfell before Jaime gets there to warn them of her betrayal and to possibly catch them off guard and take a valuable hostage ( Sansa), so in the event Jon and Dany do win against the AOTD, she has a bargaining tool? 

Theory 3:: she has a miscarriage in episode 2 and goes cuckoo bananas, hears Jaime is with Brienne at Winterfell and says fuck it, BURN THEM ALL and sends the GC to attack and try to take out all her enemies in one spot.

Theory 4:: Euron goes rogue and takes the GC to Winterfell against her orders .

I've been thinking that in order to give the naysayers a win, the writers might have Jon & co let the Lannister & the GC pass only for them to attack WF. I hope not, since it would involve so much more stupidity from everyone, including not believing Jaime -since he talks about fighting the dead in the trailer, he arrives before the GC- the naysayers suddenly believing a Lannister/Kinslayer, and no one asking Bran if Jaime tells the truth whereas they know what precise question to ask for once. 

On Cersei's side, she learns in 8x01 that the Wall has fallen and the NK has a dragon. Those are only more reasons for her not to move. So I do think that something makes her snap, very probably her miscarriage. I still wonder why the GC would accept, but maybe she doesn't tell them about the AOTD.

No matter how grotesque he is, I'm not sure that Euron would take such a risk; he seems to only attack when he's certain to win. OTOH, word spread that Cersei had already lost power in 8x04. I can see Euron using her decision to send the GC to depose her with the support of the Iron Bank, since Nestoris and his cohorts aren't the kind to appreciate crazy expeditions.

1 hour ago, screamin said:

Yes, Jon saw that. Yes, she's what the North needs. But he's also in love, and that IS affecting his judgement, IMO...not because he's fundamentally  wrong about her, but because he assumes everyone will see what he sees in her, when he's made absolutely NO effort to convey it to them.

Yes, he did. It was the point of his idea that Dany arrives with him by boat and not flying on her dragon, to "send a better message", show that they're allies. And Dany accepted because she's not going to conquer the North, but to help the North.

Jon's problem re: what is sees, imo, is that he sees the big picture, and his vassals don't. It goes without saying in his mind that survival is more important than petty politics; for the North to be independent or anything else, for that matter, there has to be a North left. In other words, the poor guy credits the people surrounding him with basic levels of intelligence, whereas they're complete, short-sighted, helpless idiots.

1 hour ago, MarySNJ said:

If the Friki-leaks are true, then Cersei seems content to "let them kill each other". At least to start, I take that to mean she will bide her time and preserve her resources. Now, after the battle at Winterfell, regardless of the outcome (Northern allies win or lose), maybe she'll dispatch the Golden Company up to the Neck to prevent the remaining Northern forces from coming South. She's definitely delusional, but I'm not sure she's completely lost her mind - yet. If she miscarries, then I can see her losing it. 

All that being said, D&D don't always do what I think makes narrative sense, so anything is possible. 

Yes, as I said, as of 8x01 she has yet to change strategy. Thing is, according to WoTW (based on filming footage/picture) the Lannister army is the one to attack WF in 8x03, and some people think the lances seen during the WF attack in the trailer are the same as the GC lances seen on the boat shot. Pieces don't seem to fit, which is why I'm very curious about that particular point.

Edited March 26, 2019 by Happy Harpy

[GrailKing]

I can't remember, if it was Friki or not; wasn't there something about Sansa intercepting a letter?

[screamin]

46 minutes ago, MarySNJ said:

If the Friki-leaks are true, then Cersei seems content to "let them kill each other". At least to start, I take that to mean she will bide her time and preserve her resources. Now, after the battle at Winterfell, regardless of the outcome (Northern allies win or lose), maybe she'll dispatch the Golden Company up to the Neck to prevent the remaining Northern forces from coming South. She's definitely delusional, but I'm not sure she's completely lost her mind - yet. If she miscarries, then I can see her losing it. 

All that being said, D&D don't always do what I think makes narrative sense, so anything is possible. 

I think we also have to take into account what you can reasonably expect a relatively small company of mercenaries (who haven't seen the living dead and therefore won't believe in them) to do for money. "Go into the farthest freezing north and fight at the side of the woman with the huge army and the dragons...and when and if you survive her enemy, attack her army and dragons head on!" Don't think so. "Hold the Neck in the dead of winter in a famine-stricken land as long as it takes for the lady with the dragons and army to get around to fighting you head on!" Probably not. That's why I think that the GC's aim will be to destroy WF's stores, grab hostages and flee by ship. Dany's armies will still be able to fight the NK for a little while, but many will starve in the winter eventually, leaving Cersei in a better bargaining position with her hostage(s). Or so she hopes.

1 hour ago, Minneapple said:

I don't think the GC gets to Winterfell before Jaime, though.

Jaime's going overland, isn't he? The GC would travel on Euron's ships...much faster than by land. It's possible they'd arrive before him, get access to WF by presenting themselves as Cersei's promised army...then attacking at some unguarded moment and fleeing again.

[screamin]

8 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

1 hour ago, screamin said:

Yes, Jon saw that. Yes, she's what the North needs. But he's also in love, and that IS affecting his judgement, IMO...not because he's fundamentally  wrong about her, but because he assumes everyone will see what he sees in her, when he's made absolutely NO effort to convey it to them.

Yes, he did. It was the point of his idea that Dany arrives with him by boat and not flying on her dragon, to "send a better message", show that they're allies.

It would have shown they're allies if they'd actually arrived as allies - the King in the North hand in hand with the powerful Dragon Queen, who magnanimously fights their common enemy at his side as an equal. Instead, they arrived as Dragon Queen and her devoted lackey, the Warden of the North. Arriving on a ship doesn't change that. It didn't have to happen that way; it was Jon's call to squander that opportunity to show the North the generous side of Dany to greater advantage.

[Colorful Mess]

3 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

Moreover, Daenerys isn't the wrong person. She proved it by risking her life and losing her dragon for Jon and by pledging to fight for his cause/the North. She seems to prove it again, in 8x01, by seeing the big picture and not taking back her armies and her dragons as the Northern lords and Sansa have the audacity to complain and be frosty to her whereas she brings help they're in dire need of.

Seems like they're not objecting her help, they're questioning where Jon's loyalties lie. 

Sansa's question: Is Jon loyal to the NORTH or to DANY? Is he thinking with his BRAIN or with his DICK? 

The scripts (which arent to be trusted because D&D are trolls) do say that he realizes he loves her before he bends the knee. Not a good look. Better hope its not true. Better hope its fake.

Did Jon trade his people's sovereignty as an offer of love and devotion because he's infatuated like every other man who meets her? 

Sansa and Arya have the right to know if he's thinking clearly here. If Jon thinks she deserves the North and would make a great Queen for them, I dont really see anything in the leaks where Jon sells Dany's qualities to his people. It might be a hard sell anyway because the wight hunt rescue is tangled up with wight dragon and wall falling. 

Jon should face pushback for what he did. But, Dany could also step in to diffuse the situation. Don't folks always say Dany would have come without any kneebending? So why should it matter to her if Lyanna doesn't call her their queen and the Lords don't want her to be their queen? Dany has a lot of power to diffuse this situation by simply giving them their independence like she gave Yara. I'm interested to see Dany's reaction.

[Happy Harpy]

18 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

I can't remember, if it was Friki or not; wasn't there something about Sansa intercepting a letter?

It wasn't Friki. IIRC, it's a recent speculation born from an interview with Maisie and Sophie, where Sophie said she asked to keep an important scroll.

16 minutes ago, screamin said:

I think we also have to take into account what you can reasonably expect a relatively small company of mercenaries (who haven't seen the living dead and therefore won't believe in them) to do for money. "Go into the farthest freezing north and fight at the side of the woman with the huge army and the dragons...and when and if you survive her enemy, attack her army and dragons head on!" Don't think so. "Hold the Neck in the dead of winter in a famine-stricken land as long as it takes for the lady with the dragons and army to get around to fighting you head on!" Probably not. That's why I think that the GC's aim will be to destroy WF's stores, grab hostages and flee by ship. Dany's armies will still be able to fight the NK for a little while, but many will starve in the winter eventually, leaving Cersei in a better bargaining position with her hostage(s). Or so she hopes.

Jaime's going overland, isn't he? The GC would travel on Euron's ships...much faster than by land. It's possible they'd arrive before him, get access to WF by presenting themselves as Cersei's promised army...then attacking at some unguarded moment and fleeing again.

The GC isn't a relatively small company of mercenaries, per Cersei it's "the most powerful army in Essos, twenty-thousand men". It's more than the Unsullied.

The possibility of a raid doesn't seem very likely, relying on the trailer. The Stargaryen troops are preparing to fight and deployed around the walls of a seemingly intact WF. Sansa and Arya are both on the walls (visible as Davos walks, in the background). The GC would have to go in a full battle to pass the lines and grab someone.

The only notable absences are Bran, Jon and Dany...but Cersei was adamant to kill the two latter first at the Dragonpit, so I don't know why she'd have changed their mind and taken them or one of them hostages instead.

2 minutes ago, screamin said:

It would have shown they're allies if they'd actually arrived as allies - the King in the North hand in hand with the powerful Dragon Queen, who magnanimously fights their common enemy at his side as an equal. Instead, they arrived as Dragon Queen and her devoted lackey, the Warden of the North

Few lackeys arrive riding side by side with their queen, like Jon does with Dany in the trailer; they're usually a few steps behind. According to Friki, Jon will also have the place of honor, at the center, during the assembly.

1 minute ago, Colorful Mess said:

Sansa's question: Is Jon loyal to the NORTH or to DANY? Is he thinking with his BRAIN or with his DICK? HEART?

Here, I put the right word for you 😘 

[nikma]

CG is as big as Robb's army when he started the war in S1. And after his first battle against Tywin he had 18 000.

So CG is bigger than Robb's army at the end of S1.

[GrailKing]

3 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

It wasn't Friki. IIRC, it's a recent speculation born from an interview with Maisie and Sophie, where Sophie said she asked to keep an important scroll.

Ah, yes I even said if true and it puts Tyrion in a bad light; to show her political and or manipulative skills she would use that to remove the lannisters as they would still be a threat to her and her family.

[Colorful Mess]

1 minute ago, Happy Harpy said:

Here, I put the right word for you 😘 

I'm just borrowing from Maise. What a way to describe a love story!

[anamika]

42 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

Jon's problem re: what is sees, imo, is that he sees the big picture, and his vassals don't. It goes without saying in his mind that survival is more important than petty politics; for the North to be independent or anything else, for that matter, there has to be a North left. In other words, the poor guy credits the people surrounding him with basic levels of intelligence, whereas they're complete, short-sighted, helpless idiots. 

It's funny that after hearing for 7 seasons about how the Starks are the best, purest, nicest, central heroes of the tale and their house motto is literally 'Winter is coming' and their house is intricately linked to the Others and the AOTD and all that - now THEY are the ones fighting over petty politics while this threat is marching on their home.

Meanwhile after constantly hearing about the evil, power hungry Targaryens - where their evilness is apparently  inbuilt into their genes making them inherently evil -  they are the ones who are able to put aside politics and focus on what's really important.

[GraceK]

1 minute ago, anamika said:

they are the ones who are able to put aside politics and focus on what's really important.

With Jaime Lannister to boot!! 😂😂 oh the sweet irony!!!

Edited March 26, 2019 by GraceK