Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[LadyChaos]

1 hour ago, SimoneS said:

I never get over how D&D have just kicked aside Dany's claim to the Iron Throne in favor of Jon's. I don't doubt that is Martin's intent, but it still sucks. They least they could do is present them as rival claims considering that Jon is the far less powerful than Dany in terms of armies, dragons, and magic. 

How did they kick it aside? If GRRM wrote Jon as Rhaegarl's son, and Rhaegar was crown prince when he fathered Jon; then Jon is the Crown Prince/King of the Seven Kingdoms now that Aerys and Rhaehar are dead.  Thats  the way of succession to thrones.  Since Jon has no children, Danerys is second in line to the throne as Veserys is dead. This isn't on D&D's head for what the secession works, and what GRRM wrote.

 Personally, I think Jon would be the better ruler, but Jon has never wanted to rule anything. He only took up being KotN because they wanted him to be.  I think that if he wanted to push the issue, which he won't, he definitely has claim over Dany; but Dany has the power to make it happen and he does not.  I think Jon will back her claim, and denounce any claim to the throne.  The only way I see Jon actually sitting the throne, is if Dany dies because despite what he wants, I think she will actually name him her successor (since Tyrion has been telling her she needs to name one).

Edited March 23, 2019 by LadyChaos

[nikma]

Friki's Season 8 Episode 1 spoilers video is up again.

[GrailKing]

2 minutes ago, nikma said:

Friki's Season 8 Episode 1 spoilers video is up again.

go back 1 page : )

[SimoneS]

2 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

Claims and actual power are two different things. Stannis had a better claim than Renly, and yet the lords mostly declared for the latter and gave him more power.

I'll wait and see before judging, re: the heir to the Iron Throne. It could be some "in your face" formulation used for the season finale and maximum impact. Sam does repeat it in 8x01, yet he has an obvious emotional bias at that moment.

Book purists have been fighting for 20 years about Jon's claim vs Dany's claim (Aerys having declared Viserys as his heir complicates things). It isn't absolutely impossible it's mentioned on the show if there's some squabble in 8x02 between advisors especially; I could see Tyrion refer to it in order to defend Dany's rights, for example.

They could also have Jon respect his word and refuse any birth right, stating that his opinion didn't change and Dany is still the most worthy to be queen in his eyes.

Imo, claims won't matter in the end. If someone sits on the throne it will be similar as how Robert ended on it, someone who saved the realm and happens to have king's/Targ blood. It could be two someone, reigning as equals.

Good point. They might yet have someone mention that Viserys was Aerys' heir. I will be waiting with bated breath for someone to finally point out that Jon and Dany's marrying is obvious the resolution to the competing claims. 

Edited March 24, 2019 by SimoneS

[SeanC]

43 minutes ago, nikma said:

Dany came to save the day.

Dany didn't, though.  She showed up intending to burn everything, and then the writers had the wise Tyrion talk her down from this into following his plan.  Basically any time she doesn't follow Tyrion's advice the narrative starts looking askance at her, down to the musical score getting ominous.

Quote

Then they wrote a season where he made many mistakes and Dany blames him for that all the time. I don't get  why "we're supposed to be on his side". 

Because every time Dany gets mad at him he gets a sad puppy look and the film is filmed to make us feel sorry for him and make Dany look unreasonable.  Those are very rudimentary filmmaking decisions aimed at putting the audience on Tyrion's side.

[nikma]

7 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Dany didn't, though.  She showed up intending to burn everything, and then the writers had the wise Tyrion talk her down from this into following his plan. 

Yeah, because D&D need to create a reason why Dany wants Tyrion to be her Hand. But they also need him to show some incompetence in Meereen, and even more in Westeros, so he can be killed at the end of S8. 

7 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Basically any time she doesn't follow Tyrion's advice the narrative starts looking askance at her,

Not true. Her only victory in the war against the Lannisters was when she ignored Tyrion and followed Jon's advice. 

7 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Because every time Dany gets mad at him he gets a sad puppy look and the film is filmed to make us feel sorry for him and make Dany look unreasonable.  Those are very rudimentary filmmaking decisions aimed at putting the audience on Tyrion's side.

This is just your interpretation. They literally had a scene in S7 where Dany walks away from Tyrion and comes towards Jon to ask him for help. It is not that subtle at all. 

And they will have scenes in the first episode of S8 where Tyrion will make even more mistakes. If that's not set up for his downfall I don't know what is. They cleary have no intention to show him as competent Hand.

Edited March 23, 2019 by nikma

[bubble sparkly]

25 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

How did they kick it aside? If GRRM wrote Jon as Rhaegarl's son, and Rhaegar was crown prince when he fathered Jon; then Jon is the Crown Prince/King of the Seven Kingdoms now that Aerys and Rhaehar are dead.  Thats  the way of succession to thrones.  Since Jon has no children, Danerys is second in line to the throne as Veserys is dead. This isn't on D&D's head for what the secession works, and what GRRM wrote.

I think in the books there is a lot more talk about how Aerys disinherited Rhaegar and his kids and names Viserys his successor.  Possibly, Viserys was even crowned when he was a young child (I can't remember the full gist of it)?  Thus, one assumes that in the books once Jon's parentage is found out it is not going to be a clear cut "Jon is the heir", because there is the legitimate school of thought that since Aerys disinherited Rhaegar, then Jon is part of that disinherited line and thus his claim is much weaker than Dany's.

Now, again, I'm sure Jon would still have supporters in the books, just like Dany will. And as with the Stannis/Renly example, sometimes people are more than willing to back someone with a weaker claim if they like them better or get a better alliance out of it.

I also wouldn't be surprised if the books have Dany and Jon marry to unite their claims, which is really what show Dany and Jon should be doing as well.  Or at least their advisors should certainly be suggesting it.  Then again, last season no one thought to bring up the idea of a Dany/Jon marriage (apart from Littlefinger!), even though DJ are two super hot, single, similar aged rulers who were working towards an alliance and were obviously keen to jump each other's bones lol!

[joliefaire]

24 minutes ago, bubble sparkly said:

I also wouldn't be surprised if the books have Dany and Jon marry to unite their claims, which is really what show Dany and Jon should be doing as well.

I think, insofar as we're discussing claims to the throne, we should also keep in mind Dany's vow to 'break the wheel.'  To stop the endless round of the great houses endlessly warring and vying for control of the Throne and the Seven Kingdoms.   I have no doubt that she and Jon will be together, probably marry, no clue whether either or both will die.  But we know Jon surely doesn't crave to be King of the World, and if Dany is true to her vow to 'break the wheel,' then she shouldn't be seeking the Throne and ultimate power, either.  I also think that in this aspect of the whole story anyway, D&D will end GoT the way GRRM ends ASoIaF.  And I CAN'T see GRRM ending his whole grand series with yet another scion (or scions) of the great houses, in this case Targ and Stark, ascending the throne and taking power over everybody. 

IF Dany and Jon survive Episode 6, I believe it will be in some diminished capacity, from a power perspective--by their own initiative.  They will decide that each of the 7 kingdoms can decide their own fate (after all, think about it, Dorne and the North are about as culturally different as...I don't know...Ukraine and Argentina, or whatever.  No common history, no common purpose or culture, forcibly held together by a centralized power that has nothing in common with either of them.)

[LadyChaos]

2 minutes ago, joliefaire said:

I think, insofar as we're discussing claims to the throne, we should also keep in mind Dany's vow to 'break the wheel.'  To stop the endless round of the great houses endlessly warring and vying for control of the Throne and the Seven Kingdoms.   I have no doubt that she and Jon will be together, probably marry, no clue whether either or both will die.  But we know Jon surely doesn't crave to be King of the World, and if Dany is true to her vow to 'break the wheel,' then she shouldn't be seeking the Throne and ultimate power, either.  I also think that in this aspect of the whole story anyway, D&D will end GoT the way GRRM ends ASoIaF.  And I CAN'T see GRRM ending his whole grand series with yet another scion (or scions) of the great houses, in this case Targ and Stark, ascending the throne and taking power over everybody. 

IF Dany and Jon survive Episode 6, I believe it will be in some diminished capacity, from a power perspective--by their own initiative.  They will decide that each of the 7 kingdoms can decide their own fate (after all, think about it, Dorne and the North are about as culturally different as...I don't know...Ukraine and Argentina, or whatever.  No common history, no common purpose or culture, forcibly held together by a centralized power that has nothing in common with either of them.)

I honestly would like it to return to the old ways, where each kingdom was their own, but they all answered to a united ruler.  When that ruler died, the kings met in KL to choose the next High King.

[nikma]

Friki's video down again 

[joliefaire]

14 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

I honestly would like it to return to the old ways, where each kingdom was their own, but they all answered to a united ruler.  When that ruler died, the kings met in KL to choose the next High King.

Or, perhaps a United Council of Seven, each kingdom having an equal voice in affairs affecting them all.  It would be raucous, to be sure, but it would be the beginning of a democracy.

[LadyChaos]

1 minute ago, joliefaire said:

Or, perhaps a United Council of Seven, each kingdom having an equal voice in affairs affecting them all.  It would be raucous, to be sure, but it would be the beginning of a democracy.

This would be truly breaking the wheel.  

[GrailKing]

26 minutes ago, nikma said:

Friki's video down again 

The one where he's in the car or his repost ?

[ursula]

47 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

I honestly would like it to return to the old ways, where each kingdom was their own, but they all answered to a united ruler.  When that ruler died, the kings met in KL to choose the next High King.

The old ways was never like that. The "Seven Kingdoms" were never even "seven" and each "Kingdom" spent more time battling rival Kingdoms and in-house infighting than periods of peace and prosperity. In fact, the biggest motive for unification that Westeros faced pre-Targaryen dynasty was Aegon Targaryen. For the first time in ages, Westeros had a significant external threat to make the Kings/rulers lay aside their differences and unite against. 

[GraceK]

3 minutes ago, ursula said:

The old ways was never like that. The "Seven Kingdoms" were never even "seven" and each "Kingdom" spent more time battling rival Kingdoms and in-house infighting than periods of peace and prosperity. In fact, the biggest motive for unification that Westeros faced pre-Targaryen dynasty was Aegon Targaryen. For the first time in ages, Westeros had a significant external threat to make the Kings/rulers lay aside their differences and unite against. 

Exactly. This idea of a peaceful , utopian time before Aegon arrived is Anti Targaryen propaganda. 🙄🙄 People act like destroying the Iron Throne is going to either usher in a USA style brand of democracy or restore a beautiful, peaceful reign of seven kings( or queens) over separate Kingdoms  all living harmoniously with independence 😂😂😂😂 riiight. That always worked in medevil times .

[nikma]

Yeah. Break up of 7 Kingdoms is not the solution.

Edited March 24, 2019 by nikma

[ursula]

13 minutes ago, GraceK said:

Exactly. This idea of a peaceful , utopian time before Aegon arrived is Anti Targaryen propaganda. People act like destroying the Iron Throne is going to either usher in a USA style brand of democracy or restore a beautiful, peaceful reign of seven kings( or queens) over separate Kingdoms  all living harmoniously with independence riiight. That always worked in medevil times .

Seriously, though. And if we're establishing "democracy" in Westeros, is it only going to count at the highest level? Or are we going to demolish the entire feudal system? Will the North finally get a ruler that was elected for the people, by the people, of the people? (Note that by people I don't mean the electoral college feudal lords who "won"* their lands, but the actual people that make up a majority of the populace - the no-last-name-by-law, no-right-to-property, you-get-taxed-and-drafted-and-raped-by-your-"Lord"-and-tell-him-thank-you-for-letting-you-exist-while-you-do-all-the-actual-work small-folk?) 

Because it seems like the "Iron Throne is undemocratic" argument is more of a Rich People's Noble People's problem than anything else. The dominant group of aristocrats want to keep the power to exploit the poor (and "lesser" aristocrats), without being exploited in turn by a smaller group of aristocrats. 

*euphemism

Edited March 24, 2019 by ursula

[LadyChaos]

Well, to be honest. There is no real form of breaking the wheel that will matter to the common folk, that could be in instituted in what time frame is left at the end of dealing with Cersei and the NK.  So we have to assume its likely to be more of the same.

[joliefaire]

4 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

Well, to be honest. There is no real form of breaking the wheel that will matter to the common folk, that could be in instituted in what time frame is left at the end of dealing with Cersei and the NK.  So we have to assume its likely to be more of the same.

I don't think so, with all respect.  Only because I don't believe that's what GRRM had in mind--he's spent 20++ years on this saga, only to end it in...more of the same?  I don't think so.  Just my 2 cents, for what its worth.

[GraceK]

Also, this idea that GRRM is even pushing for this overthrow of the Monarchy is ridiculous. He has as his hero a hidden prince with a magical connection to a dire wolf who is a pure blood of two mystical noble houses, a Queen with legendary blood who can ride dragons and is who another pure blood of a ancient magical bloodline that SCREAMs destiny, and has written for years about the Targaryens, his favorite house. Since the Targaryens have been usurped Westeros has had a drunk king who was murdered, an inbred evil tyrant bastard king, a teen puppet, and now a mad despot. The two descendants of the Targaryen dynasty are the protagonists of the story and are being set up to literally save the world, and Jon Snow has the bonus of also being a Stark, the magical mix of ice and fire of the series. I mean, it can’t hit you on the head hard enough that GRRM is pushing for some kind of restoration, maybe even a Camelot after all the bloodshed and chaos of the War for the Dawn. The Camelot part is my own interpretation however.  

Edited March 24, 2019 by GraceK

[ursula]

43 minutes ago, GraceK said:

He has as his hero a hidden prince with a magical connection to a dire wolf who is a pure blood of two mystical noble houses, a Queen with legendary blood who can ride dragons and is who another pure blood of a ancient magical bloodline that SCREAMs destiny,

There's a book [title spoiler under the cut]

Spoiler

King of Scars/Grishaverse

with two Princes brothers. The younger, heroic, crazy-brilliant, man-of-the-people, volunteered-to-the-army-and-saw-real-combat Prince has had to deal with rumors that he's a bastard all his life.  The older Crown Prince is vain, self-indulgent and generally loathsome and has never once had his bloodline called into question. The younger ends up becoming King and finally, after decades of rumors, gets confirmation from his mother about his father.

If this book was ASOIAF, we'd find out now that he was true born all along. Maybe even that the older Prince was the bastard, not him. But it turns out that - nope, he was always a bastard. He doesn't have a single drop of King's blood in him. His father isn't even a citizen of their country. 

He's basically a hero/Chosen One because he made himself a hero. Because he loved his country and his people enough to want the job, and want to do it well, and not just be a pampered aristocrat like his brother and his father before him. 

Tl dr, but if GRRM was really writing a story about changing the status quo, Jon would have to be a bastard, not a King Arthur-esque one. Probably not even Ned's bastard. And everything good and noble and heroic about him would have been because of him, Jon, not because he was the double-whammy Magical Heir of Two Magical Royal Bloodlines. 

Edited March 24, 2019 by ursula

[LadyChaos]

42 minutes ago, joliefaire said:

I don't think so, with all respect.  Only because I don't believe that's what GRRM had in mind--he's spent 20++ years on this saga, only to end it in...more of the same?  I don't think so.  Just my 2 cents, for what its worth.

Oh I think the book will definitely be different. I just think that I don't see how TPTB for the show can implement anything that 'breaks the wheel' in what little time we have for s8 given what we already know is happening is all.  We haven't really seen them try to lay the ground work for anything yet that isn't more of the same. 

[bubble sparkly]

Yeah, I agree that having 7 separate kingdoms and/or some kind of ruling council is really not breaking the wheel in any significant way.  The Westerosi nobles will still be in charge and the poor common folk will still end up getting the short end of the stick.

If the kingdoms agree to go their separate ways we presumably have say Robyn Arryn in charge of the Vale.  That kid was severely messed up by his crazy ass mother and last we saw was a spoiled, inept child with a thirst for throwing people out the moon door.  If Sansa is in charge of the North, we have already seen her advocate for Cersei-like policies of punishing children for their parent's sins and wanting to kick them out of their homes.  Edmure has shown himself to be a buffoon and a weakling, and I would guess it would not be long before someone plots to dethrone him from the Riverlands.  I'm not trying to suggest that Robyn, Sansa and Edmure etc. are evil and incapable of ruling, but that having them in charge is no different to having Dany and Jon in charge, apart from the fact that Dany and Jon have had more experience being leaders.

I think the chances the IT will be destroyed are good, but whether you have DJ as King and Queen or the 7 kingdoms split up, who knows.  The only way to truly break the wheel is to have democratic elections, but it seems very far fetched that Westeros will go from its current system to a more democratic voting system in such a short time frame.

[LadyChaos]

Just now, bubble sparkly said:

If the kingdoms agree to go their separate ways we presumably have say Robyn Arryn in charge of the Vale.  That kid was severely messed up by his crazy ass mother and last we saw was a spoiled, inept child with a thirst for throwing people out the moon door. 

Let's be honest......someone will throw him out the moon door soon enough so the Vale isn't ruled by a crazy person.

[joliefaire]

Interesting how many people here are advocating for a single strong central government to rule everyone.

[GraceK]

7 minutes ago, ursula said:

dr, but if GRRM was really writing a story about changing the status quo, Jon would have actually be a bastard, a real one, not a King Arthur-esque one. Probably not even Ned's bastard. And everything good and noble and heroic about him would have been because of him, Jon, not because he was the double-whammy Magical Heir of Two Magical Royal Bloodlines. 

Exactly. For all the talk of “subverting tropes”, GRRM has written a classic fantasy, especially in his King Arthur, Aragorn figure in Jon Snow. He  is your typical archetype romantic fantasy hero. Daenarys is actually a trope breaker, which in my opinion is why she is so divisive.

[bubble sparkly]

2 hours ago, GraceK said:

Exactly. For all the talk of “subverting tropes”, GRRM has written a classic fantasy, especially in his King Arthur, Aragorn figure in Jon Snow. He  is your typical archetype romantic fantasy hero

Very true.  And show!Jon has been presented as someone who would pretty much be the perfect ruler.  He's a good fighter and willing to risk his life to protect others, he has overcome Westerosi prejudices and welcomed the Freefolk, and he's kind and fair and willing to give people the benefit of the doubt.  The only flaw that show!Jon really has now is that he is maybe too trusting and truthful etc.  However, it seems like we are supposed to agree with Jon that everyone needs to tell the truth and work together etc. and not play pointless political games.  So really, his one flaw is not a true flaw.

If Jon is named King in 8x06 (whether by himself or jointly with Dany as Queen), I don't think there's anyone in Weteros who would think he didn't deserve it and that he wouldn't be a good King.

[Happy Harpy]

5 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I will be waiting with bated breath for someone to finally point out that Jon and Dany's marrying is obvious the resolution to the competing claims. 

I doubt there will be a serious or lasting conflict between Jon and Dany for this very reason. Had they already talked of marriage before the reveal, I'd be more worried. But with the perfectly logical solution starring as the elephant in the room, it seems like a non-issue.

[anamika]

I agree that we will end up with some kind of constitutional monarchy.

The question is who leads it.

I don't think Jon and Dany die at the end. But considering how strong the theme of wanting home, peace, family, house with the red door has been for both of them, I would not be surprised if they don't want to rule anymore at the end of it.

BoatsexBaby has indicated their baby is what's important in the endgame. I am not sure how exactly - could be the baby is the prince that was promised. Could be that's whom the NK is after. Maybe Jon/Dany arrange for a regent and leave?

That would also be them abdicating their duty considering they are the most qualified to run the 7K - so I am not sure if they will do it. 

The show also seems to be pushing the idea that Dany can be impulsive and make the wrong decisions first with Tyrion and now with Sam if what Friki is saying is right. 

Now we may agree with Dany's decisions to take out the Tarlys, but it's what the show thinks that's important - and we had that entire conversation with Tyrion and Varys where they compare her to her father. Varys says that Tyrion needs to make Dany listen to him. We see Tyrion try, but Dany increasingly turns to Jon's advice instead.

And now we have Sam. As per Friki's leak of episode one:

Quote

Sam confused in his emotions goes to talk to Bran. Bran tells him that he needs to hurry to tell Jon the truth. So while Jon is brooding in the WF crypts in front of Ned's statue, Sam comes to him to give him the Aegon news.

Jon: What's up dude? you don't look so good!

Sam: Well, Danny cooked my father and brother ...

Jon: ...

Sam: maybe this alliance you've made is not so great

Jon: We need allies so I bent the knee and now she's the queen and I'm not really the KitN...

Sam: Forget about KitN, and forget about her being queen. Actually, it's you who should be king b/c Lyanna Stark, and b/c Rhaegar Targaryen and b/c you're name is ... tun! tun! tun! ... Aegon Targaryen!

Jon: But my father Ned Stark was the most honorable man that ever graced Westeros ...

Sam: Sure, b/c he had to protect you b/c Robert and Rhaegar and ...

Jon: But ... she's the queen!

Sam: She can't be the queen b/c you're the rightful heir to the IT, and 7K, Protector of the Realm

Now the idea that the impulsive woman needs to be restrained and tempered by the wiser man is inherently sexist - but this is GOT and ASoIaF written by GRRM in the early nineties.

So I could very well see them making the argument about Jon+Dany being a good team rather than Jon alone or Dany alone - together.

If you look at the videos of the cast members being asked who they want to sit on the Iron Throne, I noticed a couple of things.

The older cast members argue against characters like Sam or Davos sitting on the Iron Throne - because they are too good! This sort of jives with what GRRM has been saying all along - that it's not enough to be a good guy to be a good ruler. That would also then rule out Jon.   Again, morally grey Dany would fit in here better.

So I think the show is pushing for a Jon/Dany combined leadership at the end. 

I am a bit disappointed that Arya is once again excluded from the council scene in episode one. But considering that Jon is asking Arya's help to smooth things over for him - maybe this is where Arya enters the fray in episode two and tries to bring everyone together.

[bubble sparkly]

32 minutes ago, anamika said:

Now the idea that the impulsive woman needs to be restrained and tempered by the wiser man is inherently sexist - but this is GOT and ASoIaF written by GRRM in the early nineties.

So I could very well see them making the argument about Jon+Dany being a good team rather than Jon alone or Dany alone - together.

I agree, unfortunately, that GRRM's intention could be that Dany needs to learn to be more restrained, and Jon will be the one to teach her(through the power of his penis or whatever).  Hopefully, if this is the direction it is supposed to go in, D&D can somehow tone it down and maybe have Dany decide on her own that she wants to be "better" than her ancestors and not use fire anymore or something.  Not that D&D are perfect and immune from sexist stories, but as you accurately pointed out this trope is very 80s/90s so they may realise that kind of storyline wouldn't be too popular now.

43 minutes ago, anamika said:

I am a bit disappointed that Arya is once again excluded from the council scene in episode one.

I also thought that was strange. I know Sansa is LOW and everything, but I don't see why the other Starks wouldn't be participating in council meetings etc.  Especially when Sansa and Arya buried the hatchet at the end of s7 and are presumably committed to working as a team.

[ElizaD]

The show's breaking the wheel-speech and the fandom's fondness for including it in speculations has always seemed odd to me because GRRM does not give a damn about the middle and lower classes. He even named them the smallfolk! And there's nothing ironic about that. Davos is the only major non-noble who is a POV and in a position to influence events. Arya and Brienne are the ones who get the much-praised tour of Riverlands suffering. What do the peasants themselves think about it? We don't know, because GRRM wasn't interested in creating a world in which they would have their historical avenues to power. The septons and the maesters are sidelined and reduced to Sparrow mobs or vague dragonmurder conspiracies. Tully ward Littlefinger is the only important Westerosi example of the power of money. There's no obscure Napoleon rising in the army to real power due to the chaos creating a situation in which merit overcomes birth. It just hasn't been a story GRRM cares to tell.

This is not heading for a French or Russian revolution with the abused poor making all the upper classes pay, and neither are there any educational or economic structures in place to begin a credible transformation into a republic or constitutional monarchy. Everything is decided above, and not as a response to changes in the structure below. Didn't Aegon V get in trouble with lords for making laws fairer? The one precedent, and it depends on the good king bettering a static society of nameless, unthinking masses. As pointed out by other posters, GRRM's fantasy relies on the perfectly tropey ideas of magic bloodlines, birthright and breeding, which the idealized incest makes even more unironic. His answer to a bad king/queen is a good king/queen. It's not the system that's rotten and under pressure to change, we just need a Dany to replace a Cersei or Aerys. Even if she did melt the throne, what happens next? GRRM has done nothing to suggest that Westeros could be run any differently. It would be the same old families, just with presumably greater equality.

Edited March 24, 2019 by ElizaD

[anamika]

39 minutes ago, bubble sparkly said:

I also thought that was strange. I know Sansa is LOW and everything, but I don't see why the other Starks wouldn't be participating in council meetings etc.  Especially when Sansa and Arya buried the hatchet at the end of s7 and are presumably committed to working as a team.

I get the feeling it's because they want to show how isolated Jon/Dany are as the idiots complain about him bending the knee. If Arya was there, I would assume she would stick up for him.

After Jon asks that Arya help could be when she starts getting involved.

As an Arya fan though it sucks to see her entirely removed from these plots considering she learned just as much as the boys from Ned about how the North is run and the lords and the armorers and the accounts and she learned more than just killing from the FM.

But since she's not there, hopefully Arya is atleast having some fun interactions and sexual tension with hot Gendry in the forge. Probably more fun than sitting in the great hall listening to everyone once again complain about Jon for the 100th time.

Edited March 24, 2019 by anamika

[nikma]

Arya is not there because D&D want her and Jon's reunion to be big moment and not just part of many other reunions.

[SimoneS]

12 hours ago, bubble sparkly said:

If the kingdoms agree to go their separate ways we presumably have say Robyn Arryn in charge of the Vale. 

Let us not forget the Ironborn going back to raping and raiding their neighbors. These Kingdoms were not full of peace and love prior to Aegon's arrival.

11 hours ago, GraceK said:

Exactly. For all the talk of “subverting tropes”, GRRM has written a classic fantasy, especially in his King Arthur, Aragorn figure in Jon Snow. He  is your typical archetype romantic fantasy hero. Daenarys is actually a trope breaker, which in my opinion is why she is so divisive.

Exactly. Dany is the one causing social upheaval by taking action to free enslaved people, stopping the systematic rape of women, and giving the oppressed and low born a voice in the ruling council. This is what Dany means by "breaking the wheel." It isn't a some implausible modern day version of revolution and democracy occurring overnight rather she is proposing taking steps to give rights to people at the bottom of the society. 

Edited March 24, 2019 by SimoneS

[GrailKing]

8 hours ago, anamika said:

I am a bit disappointed that Arya is once again excluded from the council scene in episode one. But considering that Jon is asking Arya's help to smooth things over for him - maybe this is where Arya enters the fray in episode two and tries to bring everyone together.

Unless I missed a line, I don't see anything where Arya is excluded, unless she's her customary self and being late.

She could just be standing in the background or next to Bran listening.

Edited March 24, 2019 by GrailKing

[Eyes High]

7 hours ago, ElizaD said:

The show's breaking the wheel-speech and the fandom's fondness for including it in speculations has always seemed odd to me because GRRM does not give a damn about the middle and lower classes. He even named them the smallfolk! And there's nothing ironic about that. Davos is the only major non-noble who is a POV and in a position to influence events.

I agree. If GRRM at all cared about the plight of the smallfolk, he would have put them front and centre, and instead he's shoved them to the margins with the exception of Davos. ASOIAF really could be called Rich People Problems. Smallfolk are pretty much redshirts; even the lower-born characters (Jon, Littlefinger) are still very high status compared to the average peasant.

I think "breaking the wheel" thing is such a vague phrase as to be almost meaningless, and I don't really understand how putting a Targaryen back in charge would be "breaking the wheel" if Tyrion is right when he says that Aegon the Conqueror built the wheel. Unless there is some sort of radical shift in government at the end, I don't think "breaking the wheel" will ever be really explained except as Dany's intention to be a better sort of Targaryen absolute ruler, which isn't all that reassuring given the Targaryens' track record.

Also, there's this idea that Jon and Dany will rule in the same way as previous rulers but will melt down the Iron Throne, which is nice and all, but if you destroy the actual physical throne but retain all the powers associated with it, it's really only a meaningless symbolic gesture and not a statement of policy.

Edited March 24, 2019 by Eyes High

[LadyChaos]

Actually, I think the phrase 'break the wheel' might only be the show.

[SeanC]

23 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

 I think "breaking the wheel" thing is such a vague phrase as to be almost meaningless, and I don't really understand how putting a Targaryen back in charge would be "breaking the wheel" if Tyrion is right when he says that Aegon the Conqueror built the wheel. Unless there is some sort of radical shift in government at the end, I don't think "breaking the wheel" will ever be really explained except as Dany's intention to be a better sort of Targaryen absolute ruler, which isn't all that reassuring given the Targaryens' track record.

The funny thing about it is that last season Tyrion was starting to argue with Dany, the originator of the phrase, as to what it meant.

A lot of fan discussion has even talked about how Dany restoring absolute monarchy, having heirs, etc. can't happen because it doesn't fit with Dany's stated intention to "break the wheel", ignoring that Dany clearly doesn't think it means that otherwise she wouldn't be attempting to do those things.

As far as I can tell, it's simply Dany's equivalent to a campaign slogan.

As others have said, the basic ethos of GRRM's story is classic noblesse oblige, not some sort of radical structural alterations to Westeros.  Not that the author thinks autocracy is awesome or anything, but this isn't a ground-up reworking of society, as that's not the sort of history/story GRRM speaks about finding interesting; he's all about individuals.

This is also partly the result of GRRM's belief in "historical realism" in his fiction that isn't actually derived from a deep understanding of medieval society so much as from the pop culture impression of the Middle Ages, where the non-nobles are all peasants scrounging in the muck, there are basically no roles for women other than wife or prostitute (or nun, but Westeros' clergy are thoroughly marginalized compared to the real world, and much of their roles passed over to the Maesters, who are all male), and so on.

[screamin]

I'm thinking the dragon ride will represent the peak of ideal romance between Jon and Dany...and it'll all be downhill from there, the morning after.

Sansa's question to Jon (which apparently wasn't a possibility he'd considered) will make him wonder if he's idealizing her as Queen unduly. This will be underlined by the subsequent news of what she did to the Tarlys. THEN he gets the news that HE'S a Targaryen nephew of Dany's, and BTW he outranks her. Being Jon, he will try to keep that news quiet. But being Jon, he won't be able to keep from acting weird around Dany. She will already be on edge about her cold reception from the North, and will pick up Jon's unease with her and worry whether his compatriots are turning him against her. THEN the news gets out that Jon is actually rightful king of the IT (you know it will) and her suspicions will redouble. This will make the news of her pregnancy and the subsequent political marriage a much more angsty, harrowing affair than you'd expect. The showrunners think idyllic honeymoons are dull. It's angst all the  way for them.

[GrailKing]

Maybe HBO shot themselves in the foot ?

[Happy Harpy]

Even if it won't have the sweet sweet taste of 90% of the fleakers finally sent hiding back in their sad troll holes, I can't wait for the leaks for episode 2 😁

HBO's strategy is weird. Unlike last off-season, they didn't react so far and it got people wondering. It protected the info because if there were true tidbits, they were lost in a sea of fleaks. Why basically confirming now that Frikidoctor is legit? Why trying to shut him down after the fact? Once something is out on the net, it never disappears and anyway, those who want to know also know where to look for leaks (Freefolk). Their attempts are only helping at spreading the word.

[glowbug]

Game of Thrones is a spoiler proof show. For the first four seasons there were big spoilers available in the form of the books. Even if someone didn't want to put in the time to read all of them there are ample summaries available. If people wanted to know what was going to happen they could easily have found the info. Those who didn't want to know don't seek them out. My husband doesn't even want to watch the trailers for the next season and knows nothing about these leaks. Both season 6 and season 7 (especially season 7) had considerable leaks and the ratings only increased. By shutting Friki down they only confirmed that his info is correct, and as @Happy Harpy pointed out it's impossible to get rid of something once it's out there. There are summaries and it's easy to download a video from YouTube so I'm sure it will be re-uploaded somewhere else. It is interesting that they didn't shut down Friki's leaks for the Seville filming. Maybe it wasn't detailed enough for them to care or it could point to the info being incorrect. 

[nikma]

Something(promo, probably a trailer) is coming on March 31st KaySen said. 

48 minutes ago, glowbug said:

For the first four seasons there were big spoilers available in the form of the books

First five. 

[Eyes High]

3 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

Even if it won't have the sweet sweet taste of 90% of the fleakers finally sent hiding back in their sad troll holes, I can't wait for the leaks for episode 2 😁

HBO's strategy is weird. Unlike last off-season, they didn't react so far and it got people wondering. It protected the info because if there were true tidbits, they were lost in a sea of fleaks. Why basically confirming now that Frikidoctor is legit? Why trying to shut him down after the fact? Once something is out on the net, it never disappears and anyway, those who want to know also know where to look for leaks (Freefolk). Their attempts are only helping at spreading the word.

A few questions for you:

1. Do you really think HBO cares all that much about premiere spoilers getting out compared to 8x03 or finale spoilers?

2. Is Friki publishing leaks out of the goodness of his heart, or to build his brand and increase traffic to his YouTube channel?

3. Did Friki have any idea that HBO could and would take down his videos across all his platforms and keep them down indefinitely, or at least long enough for the episodes being spoiled to air?

4. Why did HBO wait until Friki posted his first videos to act instead of warning him about their intentions and trying to intimidate him ahead of time? 

Letting Friki marinate in his belief that there was nothing HBO could do to him, then getting the 8x01 videos taken down across all his social media platforms is the perfect tactic. Now Friki is running scared, he has apparently realized that all his social media platforms are being monitored by a company he only recently learned was hired by HBO to fuck with him, he's written to YouTube to ask them for help, he's admitted on his last video that he is stressed out and worried despite putting on a big show of bravado, and he is realizing that he's not going to be able to post leaks on his YouTube channel to build his brand and increase his paying subscribers because HBO will sit on them. Friki also said in his most recent YouTube post that he wouldn't post spoiler videos if it wasn't worth the time and effort. He has been caught completely off guard. 

HBO's strategy as far as I can tell is not about the 8x01 spoilers getting out. It was never about the 8x01 spoilers getting out. It's about sending a message to Friki about what HBO can and will do, and it definitely worked. Luring Friki into a false sense of security and then scaring the living daylights out of him, and despite his shows of bravado on his most recent video and on Twitter he is definitely scared, was kind of genius. Friki had a whole plan for his videos, and HBO just blew it out of the water. It's only "weird" if you can't see the bigger picture.

HBO probably figures 8x01 spoilers being made public are an acceptable loss if they can deter Friki from further leaks, and it sounds as if Friki won't bother doing further spoiler videos if there's nothing in it for him (i.e. more subscribers to his channel). However, he has teased the possibility of doing videos wearing his luchador mask in the persona of El Chamaco Volador to spread spoilers, which is what he did in Season 6.

Of course, unless HBO can find and muzzle the leaker, even if they can get his videos taken down almost immediately, there's nothing to stop Friki from posting the leaks in text form to Twitter or Reddit, which he may ultimately do out of spite if he can't post anything to YouTube. HBO has hired a company to stop Friki from posting leaks on his social media platforms, though, and who knows what they will do if he persists? Taking down the videos was a warning shot, and in that regard it has been very effective, but I have to think that if there's a serious risk of 8x03 leaks getting out, we'll see some sort of escalation.

We'll see what happens in the coming days. Friki seems to get his leaked episode summaries in weekly installments, not all at once, so I guess it will be a while until Round 2.

Edited March 25, 2019 by Eyes High

[anamika]

16 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

We'll see what happens in the coming days. Friki seems to get his leaked episode summaries in weekly installments, not all at once, so I guess it will be a while until Round 2.

Could depend on when HBO is sending the episodes to their affiliates to get sub-titled etc.  I don't think we are getting episode two leaks any time soon.

I also think that HBO is playing some games here with regard to leaks. We shall see.

For now, while I think Tyrion will betray Dany/Starks/Jon in some way, I think he makes it out alive at the end - the actors/show/teasers seem to really push the Tyrion betrayal stuff and I think there's some twist at the end there. He will be the only Lannister on the show who does make it out alive and continue Tywin's line.

I also hope that if Tyrion does betray the good guys he does so solely for himself and not for Cersei - that just makes him stupid and that's such a disservice to the character.

I am pretty sure now that Friki is wrong about what was filmed in Seville.

Edited March 25, 2019 by anamika

[Eyes High]

18 minutes ago, anamika said:

I am pretty sure now that Friki is wrong about what was filmed in Seville.

I don't know about that. Friki gave a description of how Tyrion looked at the trial, with longer hair, etc. down to the colour of his shirt, and he is certain his source is right. Reading between the lines, I'm guessing the source provided photos of Peter Dinklage in costume and that's why Friki is sure. And unless you think that HBO cunningly contrived to fake photographs of Peter Dinklage in costume for a trial, that sounds pretty definitive.

Also, I've always thought Peter Dinklage teasing Tyrion's death in those interviews was just teasing, but now that I really think about Peter Dinklage's post-S8 press, I realize that he has only done press for his non-GOT projects. His NPR interview in the fall indicated that he only wanted to answer one question about GOT. He has described S8 as "complicated." So maybe he's teasing Tyrion's death because Tyrion really does commit treason, get condemned to death and get executed (probably by Jon) at the end of the story and he's pissed off about it and over GOT. Actors are professionals and all, but I have a lot of trouble believing Peter Dinklage would be okay with Tyrion's fate if that's what it is, even if it affords him the opportunity for a grand speech or two. I have no doubt the majority of show-only GOT fans (and therefore the majority of GOT fans) will be okay with Tyrion's fate, and they haven't been playing the character for the past eight years.

Edited March 25, 2019 by Eyes High

[LadyChaos]

24 minutes ago, anamika said:

I am pretty sure now that Friki is wrong about what was filmed in Seville.

Im wondering about alot of what he has shared.  Everything seems ......off....this time.

[anamika]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

I don't know about that. Friki gave a description of how Tyrion looked at the trial, with longer hair, etc. down to the colour of his shirt, and he is certain his source is right. Reading between the lines, I'm guessing the source provided photos of Peter Dinklage in costume and that's why Friki is sure. And unless you think that HBO cunningly contrived to fake photographs of Peter Dinklage in costume for a trial, that sounds pretty definitive.

Oh, I think PD definitely filmed something there wearing this costume. And that was conveyed to Friki. But I don't think the scene filmed is what Friki says it was. I am now leaning more towards BsB being right.

A lot of the stuff that Friki says makes no sense ultimately. There were contradictions. Extras being told to be prepared for fight scenes and their hair being cut and them being trained - apparently all this was being done to fool them.  And then these same extras were being used to guard Tyrion ?! Then what's the point of fooling them before, if they eventually know what the scene is about? Why do they need 30 guards for Tyrion?

Tyrion's betrayal is revealed in a scene that includes Tyrion - so pretty much the main characters know he is guilty. Tyrion is then executed in another scene.

So why the trial? Shot over 5 days with so many different takes that made Sophie Turner so frustrated she keeps mentioning it again and again in her interviews.

Why is it so essential to have the trial only in the dragonpit and no where else - especially if secrecy for this plot is so essential but everyone could see which actors where involved and that only D&D where there - basically giving away that all these characters made it episode 6.

I don't think Maisie filmed in Seville or she was not part of whatever Sophie filmed. I think a lot of the actors where there because Sophie was wrapping the series, a documentary, just to be together one last time in Seville. Gemma Whelan could have been sight seeing with her baby. If Friki had mentioned Edmure being there, I could see some truth to it - as no one made out Tobias there until the airport. But as per Friki, Edmure is not there.

Peter Dinklage and Sophie Turner filmed a 5 day long, exhaustive shoot with many, may takes in Seville. That's the only thing I know for sure happened there.

[GraceK]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

maybe he's teasing Tyrion's death because Tyrion really does commit treason, get condemned to death and get executed (probably by Jon) at the end of the story and he's pissed off about it and over GOT.

I don’t see why he would be pissed off. Peter Dinklage has always been adamant about not wanting to play the stereotypical dwarf and has chosen his roles carefully for that reason. To be able play a character universally beloved, and then go on a hero’s journey  that ends in a tragic betrayal and death is possibly one of the best character arcs ever in television if done right. 

[Happy Harpy]

8 hours ago, Eyes High said:

A few questions for you:

1. Do you really think HBO cares all that much about premiere spoilers getting out compared to 8x03 or finale spoilers?

2. Is Friki publishing leaks out of the goodness of his heart, or to build his brand and increase traffic to his YouTube channel?

3. Did Friki have any idea that HBO could and would take down his videos across all his platforms and keep them down indefinitely, or at least long enough for the episodes being spoiled to air?

4. Why did HBO wait until Friki posted his first videos to act instead of warning him about their intentions and trying to intimidate him ahead of time? 

1- Yes, or they wouldn't have used security to threaten WatchersOnMyBalls when they caught him taking pictures on set, they wouldn't have those iron-clad NDA, etc. They wouldn't have reacted to those leaks either. Jon rides a dragon, NK attacks CB, those were "surprises" I don't think they wanted outed so early.

2- Where did I say anything about Frikidoctor posting leaks from the goodness of his heart? I grumbled enough about him milking his Tyrion betrayal spoiler in twenty uninformative videos.

3- HBO can't bar Friki from the net. He just has to be more sneaky, which let's be honest, he wasn't in his first video in spite of a few oral precautions. If crooks like Talking Thrones can make millions of views out of fanfic presented as leaks, Friki can present leaks as fanfic in a more convincing way. Make more small videos with one tidbit and lots of talk, or really mix truths with lies, and then post on reddit which "predictions" are true. Trafic for his channel + digit at HBO.

4- Because it isn't Minority Report. They didn't know what was in the video before it was out, and they can't strike preemptively. They did try intimidation before with Friki and others, and it didn't work.

If Friki has the info, it will be out anyway at this point. Because he found a loop, or out of spite indeed on FF or Twitter. 

Edited March 25, 2019 by Happy Harpy