Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[LadyChaos]

3 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

I think it's a valid question. Danny told him on the ship they will fight together, she will fight for the north, and she didn't require him to bend the knee.

He bent the knee having the puppy eye look.

He is defending the North, but why did he bend the knee when he didn't have to?

Per Frikki it sorta stopped Jon in his tracks when Sansa asked that question.

I agree, it is a valid question.  Sometimes we have to take a step back and look at what the characters in the story are seeing, instead of what we know.  She is seeing Jon in love, and knows nothing of the circumstances of which happened before that.

I think that he was attracted to her from the beginning, and the attraction probably played apart.  However, its not what caused him to bend the knee.  He bent the knee because he saw that she was willing to risk her life and the life of her dragons for other people, for him.  That she lost a dragon trying to save him and the people with him.  

[LadyChaos]

3 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

I do believe part of Jon's reason to bend the knee was love.But he wasn't blinded by it or doing it to get Dany to love him back or whatever.He technically didn't have to bend the knee.Dany stopped asking that and agreed to help anyway.So he could have kept independence.But Jon is also an honorable guy above everything else.He saw Dany was a person who would risk her own life for other people,he saw her lose a dragon she thinks of as a child and then still promise to help and turn away from her war for the IT,he got to know her and talk to people who follow her.He also knows that she might have to sacrifice even more in this war than just one dragon and that her resources are what will make the difference.So he bends the knee because it's the one thing he can offer in return.

But Sansa doesn't know this.What she sees is a incredibly powerful queen who could destroy then in a day and I'm sure she knows there are few monarchs who would just bring all their resources north asking for nothing in return.I feel like it makes sense to think Jon just got the best deal he could.Imo this whole thing is unbelievably stupid.A kingdom that's about to face certain death and is aware of it being this obsessed with independence and being horrible towards the only people that can help.

I also think its worth pointing out that he still was not going to bend the knee, until Tormund pointed out that Mance refused to bend the knee and do what was best for his people, out of pride, and that Jon shouldn't do the same thing.

[Happy Harpy]

15 minutes ago, joliefaire said:

But why?  To accomplish what end?  That whole issue just confuses the hell out of me, I can't make any sense of it.

I don't get it either, I'm one of those who don't get his motivations for betraying.

Tyrion did think that Cersei's only redeeming quality (joke aside) was her love for her children, so it wouldn't be out of the realm of possibilities if he actually believed that her craziness would stop at ensuring her baby's survival.

13 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

I think it's a valid question. Danny told him on the ship they will fight together, she will fight for the north, and she didn't require him to bend the knee.

He bent the knee having the puppy eye look.

He is defending the North, but why did he bend the knee when he didn't have to?

Because it was the right thing to do, imo. Their whole negotiation was "fight the NK/bent the knee". Daenerys not only accepted her end of the deal, no question asked, she suffered the loss of a child. I can't imagine honorable Ned Stark's son, who follows his example and tries to abide by his principles, taking some political advantage out of a tragedy, tragedy that happened to someone decent, tragedy that happened in order to save his life.

If there were feelings involved, imo they're here and not in romantic love or sexual attraction.

Edited March 21, 2019 by Happy Harpy

[tangerine95]

8 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

I also think its worth pointing out that he still was not going to bend the knee, until Tormund pointed out that Mance refused to bend the knee and do what was best for his people, out of pride, and that Jon shouldn't do the same thing.

Yeah I think the conversation with Tormund also helped.Imo it wasn't Jon's personal pride that kept him from bending the knee even once he saw Dany wasn't like her father.It was more about the northern lords and their pride and reaction he knows they would have.But then being face with the NK again and having Dany save him probably made that stuff seem less important and more manageable.

[Smad]

22 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

This is where she doesn't have a leg to stand on. Jon is defending the North. He's never thought about anything but defend the North against the biggest threat of all, threat that is already invading it. The audience saw it for how many seasons now? They also saw Jon take his vassals' feelings into account when he refused to bend the knee, stated explicitly in 7x04, he's as far as a dictator as possible.

The audience knows why Jon bent the knee to Dany. He was attracted to her (the "good heart" conversation) long before he did. He bent the knee because he recognized a worthy queen, one who would risk her children's lives to save other lives, for doing what she thought was right, instead of "doing nothing" and let people die because it was politically better for her, who accepted to defeat the NK with him without asking anything in return anymore.

The audience knows. The audience knows. What about what the character know? Can you give them your DVDs so they can experience all you have? Or maybe Arya could give them her copy when she acquired them in Braavos (after all how else could she know Talisa was pregnant).

It doesn't matter what the audience knows, all that matters is what the characters know. We know more than them so of course we judge things differently. But you can hardly blame the characters for not having seen the complete Seasons.

26 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

OTOH, Sansa is right not to trust Cersei. But then she should discuss with Jon about her only, not about Daenerys.

Sansa tried before, Jon said Cersei wasn't a threat to them. Last time he even said 'she admired Cersei' (footage not found) just because Sansa mentioned her name. And Dany is there and they are in a sticky political situation. How does one avoid talking about Dany?

[LadyChaos]

5 minutes ago, Smad said:

Sansa tried before, Jon said Cersei wasn't a threat to them. Last time he even said 'she admired Cersei' (footage not found) just because Sansa mentioned her name. And Dany is there and they are in a sticky political situation. How does one avoid talking about Dany?

Jon: You almost sounds as if you admire her.

Sansa:......................... I learned a lot from her

[GrailKing]

6 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

Jon: You almost sounds as if you admire her.

Sansa:......................... I learned a lot from her

You can learn a lot from people and not admire them, Sansa learned from many, I think Cersei be on that list of least admired. Better word would be she fears Cersei and distrust her.

Admire : to respect and like someone because they have done something that you think is good, or to respect their qualities or skills

Edited March 21, 2019 by GrailKing

[LadyChaos]

4 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

You can learn a lot from people and not admire them, Sansa learned from many, I think Cersei be on that list of least admired. Better word would be she fears Cersei and distrust her.

Admire : to respect and like someone because they have done something that you think is good, or to respect their qualities or skills

Those are the words Jon said to her based on the way she was talking about Cersei, his observations.

[nikma]

Whatever happens people here only talk about Sansa... Sigh...

[LadyChaos]

I think the things we need to remember going into the 8th season is that: 

1) the Northerners haven't seen the AotD so to them it is an abstract concept.

2) We know things, as the audience, that the characters themselves do not know. 

[GrailKing]

8 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

Those are the words Jon said to her based on the way she was talking about Cersei, his observations.

I know:

So, why quote his observation, did you agree with his?

I didn't. 

[LadyChaos]

1 minute ago, GrailKing said:

I know:

So, why quote his observation, did you agree with his?

I didn't. 

just responded with the quote that Smad referenced is all, since they couldn't find the footage.

[GrailKing]

3 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

just responded with the quote that Smad referenced is all, since they couldn't find the footage.

OK

[SeanC]

53 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

Because it was the right thing to do, imo. Their whole negotiation was "fight the NK/bent the knee". Daenerys not only accepted her end of the deal, no question asked, she suffered the loss of a child. I can't imagine honorable Ned Stark's son, who follows his example and tries to abide by his principles, taking some political advantage out of a tragedy, tragedy that happened to someone decent, tragedy that happened in order to save his life.

If there were feelings involved, imo they're here and not in romantic love or sexual attraction.

This I really don't see.  Dany agreeing to help doesn't mean she's owed the kingdom in return.

When people were debating this last year, I was quite vocal that if it was a choice between bowing and saving the kingdom, unquestionably Jon should bow.  But Dany agreed to help without that.  At that point, bowing is a really stupid thing to do, as Jon knows that opposition to this is seemingly all but unanimous among his people, and at a time when he wants to focus on fighting the Army of the Dead, he's needlessly introduced a hard-to-swallow complication for his own subjects.  This is actively counterproductive to his stated goal.

While the lords' position in the coming season is predictably illogical, Jon himself knew that would happen, and did it anyway to no real benefit.

Edited March 21, 2019 by SeanC

[LadyChaos]

So a common theme I am seeing in alot of speculation videos, is the belief that the crypts of winter fell are magical and/or contain something that is magical that could help or hinder the war against the AotD.

I am curious what you all think.  

Yes?

No?

In the book but not show? Vice Versa?

[GrailKing]

3 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

So a common theme I am seeing in alot of speculation videos, is the belief that the crypts of winter fell are magical and/or contain something that is magical that could help or hinder the war against the AotD.

I am curious what you all think.  

Yes?

No?

In the book but not show? Vice Versa?

Some may be magical, but I think the main thinking is there is something proving Jon's parentage.

[SeanC]

7 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

So a common theme I am seeing in alot of speculation videos, is the belief that the crypts of winter fell are magical and/or contain something that is magical that could help or hinder the war against the AotD.

I am curious what you all think.  

Yes?

No?

In the book but not show? Vice Versa?

I think the fandom fixation on the crypts is a definite mountain out of a molehill — same with things like “there must always be a Stark in Winterfell”.

[Wouter]

Jon already flying Rhaegal in the first episode is a surprise. Is it certain this is in the first episode, or may Friki have been talking about the 2nd episode, as was seemingly suggested in one of the posts above?

It is not wholly unlikely that Jon would do so before learning of his parents though, given that hints about the dragons' ease with him were already given in S7. Just surprising that it would be so soon.

Nothing very surprising otherwise. Tyrion defending Cersei seems to point towards Friki's (late season) leaks maybe being true, but as it seems hard to believe Tyrion would lie deliberately (Friki may think this is the case because he is counting on his Tyrion trial leak being correct) I don't see it as anything near confirmation. The jury is still out on that one. It does bode ill for Tyrion even if he is not lying though, considering that Jaime will probably tell them all next episode, and Cersei may attack Winterfell after that. Her attitude in ep1 "let them kill each other" seems to point against a rash and very risky offensive by her own troops against the north, though. She could attack after the battle with the NK though, when Dany's armies will presumably at their weakest, especially if part of it may be chasing retiring White Walkers.

[Happy Harpy]

1 hour ago, Smad said:

The audience knows. The audience knows. What about what the character know? Can you give them your DVDs so they can experience all you have? Or maybe Arya could give them her copy when she acquired them in Braavos (after all how else could she know Talisa was pregnant).

It doesn't matter what the audience knows, all that matters is what the characters know. We know more than them so of course we judge things differently. But you can hardly blame the characters for not having seen the complete Seasons.

Sansa tried before, Jon said Cersei wasn't a threat to them. Last time he even said 'she admired Cersei' (footage not found) just because Sansa mentioned her name. And Dany is there and they are in a sticky political situation. How does one avoid talking about Dany?

The character isn't real. Sansa doesn't have a leg to stand on in the eye of the audience, who's watching the show with full knowledge and discussing it on this board.

In universe? Let's see what she knows. Sansa knows that defending the North (against the AOTD) was Jon's reason for seeking an alliance with Daenerys. As of 8x01, Sansa knows through Bran's visions -which she's aware, without the shadow of a doubt, are true- that the Wall has fallen and the AOTD has started invading the North. She knows the NK has a dragon, too -and in 8x01 she has seen dragons. So she has enough knowledge to understand that alone, the North is facing annihilation. Therefore, she doesn't have a leg to stand on when she chooses petty politics versus survival, including questionning why and how Jon got the North ten thousands of men and dragons to defend it. Moreover, Sansa was OK with Littlefinger's presence because he had the Vale army, she didn't want to antagonize Glover and Royce because they had a few thousands men. Yet in 8x01, she's frosty with/antagonizes the person who brings ten thousands of men and dragons. So nope, she doesn't have a leg to stand on with what she knows either, including per her own reasoning.

Jon told Sansa before that she shouldn't undermine him in public, yet she still does. I don't see what stops hers from discussing Cersei again, too; it would actually be more sensible than discussing Daenerys who isn't a problem, but an ally. There's no sticky political situation, but the one she and the Northern lords (she  isn't the sole responsible) create with their unreasonable stance.

(Walder Frey knew that Talisa was pregnant. Arya knows people's thoughts when she wears their face, stated in 7x06. Arya wore Walder Frey's face in 7x01. *case closed*)

49 minutes ago, SeanC said:

This I really don't see.  Dany agreeing to help doesn't mean she's owed the kingdom in return.

She isn't owed anything. Again, it was the honorable thing to do; as I said she not only agreed to help, she also suffered a loss for helping. Even if doing the right thing is often paid dearly on GoT, imo the main message is that it's still better than only thinking of calculation and taking political advantage.

I also don't think that defending the North necessarily equals to defending the Northern independence; IIRC the kingdom fared better within the 7K. Jon made the best decision regarding the former, imo. Moreover, does Sansa know that Jon bent the knee after Daenerys accepted to help? It doesn't seem so. He didn't even talk about it to Davos and in the Dragonpit, he didn't mention the particulars, just that he declared himself for Dany.

Edited March 22, 2019 by Happy Harpy

[Minneapple]

7 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

The character isn't real. Sansa doesn't have a leg to stand on in the eye of the audience, who's watching the show with full knowledge and discussing it on this board.

The point is that Sansa can only act consistently with what she knows, not with what the audience knows. Sure she knows that the wall has fallen, about the dragons and all that. What she doesn't know is if she can trust Dany. What happens after the AoTD has been defeated? Will Daenerys be a good queen, has she blinded Jon somehow, what will she do to the Northerners? Will she dracarys people all over the place just for disagreeing with her?

[nikma]

9 minutes ago, Wouter said:

Jon already flying Rhaegal in the first episode is a surprise

If BSB is right and we have big battle between dragons and NK in E6, I suppose they want Jon to be really capable rider before that. Or if they want Jon to ride a dragon during a battle in E3.

And another reason may be that it will be easier for Jon to believe thar he is Targ if he already rode a dragon.

[Happy Harpy]

7 minutes ago, Wouter said:

Nothing very surprising otherwise. Tyrion defending Cersei seems to point towards Friki's (late season) leaks maybe being true, but as it seems hard to believe Tyrion would lie deliberately (Friki may think this is the case because he is counting on his Tyrion trial leak being correct) I don't see it as anything near confirmation. The jury is still out on that one. It does bode ill for Tyrion even if he is not lying though, considering that Jaime will probably tell them all next episode, and Cersei may attack Winterfell after that. Her attitude in ep1 "let them kill each other" seems to point against a rash and very risky offensive by her own troops against the north, though. She could attack after the battle with the NK though, when Dany's armies will presumably at their weakest, especially if part of it may be chasing retiring White Walkers.

Watching the video, I wasn't certain either whether Tyrion lying was based on his previous leaks or confirmed by his latest. He seemed pretty affirmative, not using oral precautions like on other parts of the spoilers, but my Spanish is quite rusty. I guess it depends whether his source this time has the full season at once, or only gets it episode per episode.

[Happy Harpy]

1 minute ago, Minneapple said:

The point is that Sansa can only act consistently with what she knows, not with what the audience knows. Sure she knows that the wall has fallen, about the dragons and all that. What she doesn't know is if she can trust Dany. What happens after the AoTD has been defeated? Will Daenerys be a good queen, has she blinded Jon somehow, what will she do to the Northerners? Will she dracarys people all over the place just for disagreeing with her?

My point in the post you quoted is that with what Sansa knows, her attitude is unreasonable.

Trust goes both ways. Why can't Sansa trust Jon? Sansa doesn't know anything about Dany, indeed. Why can't she stay polite and gracious, wearing a lady's mask, while she observes and makes an educated judgement? Imo, it would be much more reasonable.

[Minneapple]

4 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

My point in the post you quoted is that with what Sansa knows, her attitude is unreasonable.

Trust goes both ways. Why can't Sansa trust Jon? Sansa doesn't know anything about Dany, indeed. Why can't she stay polite and gracious, wearing a lady's mask, while she observes and makes an educated judgement? Imo, it would be much more reasonable.

It's not that Sansa can't trust Jon, she can't trust Dany. Or maybe she can't trust Jon either. He did after all make a deal with Cersei Lannister.

As for wearing a lady's mask. Everyone applauds Arya for being quick to judgment and not being ladylike. Dany rides her dragons into battle and demands people bend the knee. But when Sansa dares to not act like a perfect agreeable lady, it's not acceptable.

[nikma]

If Gregor kills Euron on Cersei's order, that look Euron gave him in 701 would be interesting foreshadowing. In a way

[Eyes High]

Friki’s spoilers are at the very least informed by his knowledge (or belief, for the skeptics) from his other source that Tyrion commits treason, is tried for it in the Dragonpit, and is executed, so all of his 8x01 leaks will be influenced by that knowledge or belief.From his comments, it sounds like all he has from this source so far is 8x01 leaks, with possible further 8x01 details to come soon.

There are multiple (often conflicting) translations of the video floating around, but one version says that Tyrion and Sansa discuss their marriage and say that it was invalid for non-consummation (which is more or less what Roose said in S5). 

[anamika]

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

When people were debating this last year, I was quite vocal that if it was a choice between bowing and saving the kingdom, unquestionably Jon should bow.  But Dany agreed to help without that. 

At that point, bowing is a really stupid thing to do, as Jon knows that opposition to this is seemingly all but unanimous among his people, and at a time when he wants to focus on fighting the Army of the Dead, he's needlessly introduced a hard-to-swallow complication for his own subjects.  This is actively counterproductive to his stated goal.

While the lords' position in the coming season is predictably illogical, Jon himself knew that would happen, and did it anyway to no real benefit.

Maybe because he does not realize how utterly idiotic people are when an existential threat is marching on them. The last he knows, they were nearing Eastwatch.  They are getting there.

He's like - they are getting here. Dany has offered to stop her campaign and help me. From everything I have seen, she's a good queen. She wants help to defeat Cersei - my bitter enemy.  Right now, defeating the AOTD is the priority - which idiot is going to argue about me bending the knee when there are more important things at stake?

This is reflected in Jon's note to Sansa

Quote

Sansa,

Cersei Lannister has pledged her forces to our cause, as has Daenerys Targaryen. And if we survive this war, I have pledged our forces to Daenerys at the rightful Queen of the Seven Kingdoms. We are both coming to organise the defence of the realm.

Jon Snow. Warden of the North.

He's like - well, we are all going to be busy trying to survive and this is the right thing to do. I will deal with this later - if we survive.  But as usual the morons up North want to fight about this now.

The problem for Jon Snow is that he is a sensible man surrounded by idiots. That's been pretty much his story for some time now. This was what happened at the Wall - where he tries to convince the crows about the AOTD - and they fail to listen to him and murder him because their hate of the Wildlings was more. That's the same here - where their hate of Dany is more than impending death.

And yes Jon/the North does owe Dany. She could have sat it out like Cersei. After the fight with the AOTD is over and they survive, is Jon/North going to fight against Dany when she re-starts her campaign - which she halted to help them?  Or would the more sensible decision be unite under Dany and take out Cersei.

Like I said. Jon keeps making decisions that make sense - with the information he has. Unfortunately, apparently the lot up North are more worried about being independent than death.

Also,

Quote

After that first disastrous assembly, Jon has to talk to Sansa. She keeps telling him that his duty is to defend the North and he's not talking her advice seriously, he keeps telling her they need allies. Eventually Sansa confronts Jon: Did you bend the knee for the North or for love

if this is true, then fuck off Sansa. Like seriously. After everything Jon has done - to accuse him of this. Ugh.

As for the rest:

Looks like the Dickon burning has Sam trying to push Jon to be king?

The Jon-Arya reunion sounds lukewarm. Not impressed but well, this is D&D and that's all I can expect from there. Instead, here have more scenes of Sansa whinging at Jon about something.

Bran continues to be boring.

No Ghost and Jaime. Surprising. That could be why NCW is in 4 episodes. So Jon is busy riding Rhaegal and has no time to meet Ghost? Ugh. The betrayal.

Tyion's trying to be sleazy standing up for Cersei.

Very little Arya - why is she not in the council with the rest. But we will get some fanservice Arya/Hound, Arya/Gendry moments.

No Sansa meeting with the Hound?

Ep 1 looks to be rather as expected, I guess.

[Missrayn]

Do not know, but I find a bit predictable. Still unsure about going already flying on the dragon. I guess people who thought Tyrion was looking at him flying in the trailer were right,  after all.  
Good, for Arya and Gendry but I am in the minority, I really believe they can be the end game couple for Arya.

Edited March 22, 2019 by Missrayn

[Eyes High]

Remember that David Nutter said that the funniest GOT scene and the most emotional and compelling GOT scene he had ever directed for the show were in the S8 episodes he directed (8x01, 8x02 and 8x04). I’m not seeing any candidates for these among the scenes described in the leak, but apparently Jon and Arya’s reunion is supposed to be quite emotional, so who knows?

ETA: Aaaaaaand Friki’s new video was sniped by HBO.

Edited March 22, 2019 by Eyes High

[anamika]

36 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

There are multiple (often conflicting) translations of the video floating around, but one version says that Tyrion and Sansa discuss their marriage and say that it was invalid for non-consummation (which is more or less what Roose said in S5). 

This seems to be true. Apparently there are different translations of Spanish 🙂

This seems better:

Quote

Northern Lords are pissed because WHAT DO YOU MEAN WE NEED TO TRUST LANNISTERS and they flip. Jon says they need all the allies. The meeting ends on a tense note

Now THIS makes sense. Considering everything the North has suffered because of the Lannisters, Cersei, Tyrion and Jaime - this reaction I can understand.  I would have thought they will be more angry about Tyrion being there than Dany.

Quote

Council – Sansa is antagonising Jon again about bending the knee and she thinks he is not listening to her and asks him “Did you bend the knee for the North of for love?” She says he is still KiTN and he needs to fight for the North and not a foreign Queen. He says they are allies, but she pushes for explanations about bending the knee and reproaches him that

So Sansa accuses Jon of all this in front of a council of Northern houses instead of privately? That makes it even worse. Ugh.

Regarding Sam's response to the Tarly burnings looks like there are different versions.

Edited March 22, 2019 by anamika

[nikma]

I see no difference between being angry at Targs and Lannisters. Both sides did a lot of bad things againt the North.

[GraceK]

43 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

It's not that Sansa can't trust Jon, she can't trust Dany. Or maybe she can't trust Jon either. He did after all make a deal with Cersei Lannister.

As for wearing a lady's mask. Everyone applauds Arya for being quick to judgment and not being ladylike. Dany rides her dragons into battle and demands people bend the knee. But when Sansa dares to not act like a perfect agreeable lady, it's not acceptable.

Whataboutism not a legitimate argument, and it’s tiresome. Not many people applauded Arya being a little rage monster last season in Winterfell. Her beef with Sansa was just as stupid and misdirected and she came across a Petulant brat. And I love the girl. Why does Sansas every single action need to be defended? He’s not the only one who made a deal with Cersei. Tyrion did as well, and so did Dany. Hell, Jaime tried to run her down with a sword a few episodes prior,  Cersei outmaneuvered her Hand and took out both of her allies and still Daenarys managed to come to the Dragonpit and commit to a ceasefire with grace and look Jaime in the eye with civility. Sansa should trust Jon now. Her all seeing magical brother should be able to fill her in, and Jon has literally trusted her enough to give her control of the north in his absence. He has done nothing but show her his love and respect, in fact, he has shown her so much love and respect that people actually Ship them to an alarming degree. It’s only Sansa who has been continuously critical of  every move he makes. And let’s be honest, since her magnificent rescue in the BOTB, what other awe inspiring advice has she contributed that will save the realm from the WW? Besides the Vale army, what can she do? Can she provide ten thousands of soldiers? Dragonglass? Mystical beasts? She has stored up food but preparing for a long night is useless when you are dead. What advice can she give him that Davos lacks? An apocalypse is coming and she’s pissed a Targaryen is here and Jons not enough of a feminist to do what she says 🙄 which again, has been nothing but Cersei is dangerous and don’t go to Dragonstone. Everyone is an idiot for trusting Cersei so she will be validated on that one pretty soon, and second, he accomplished everything he set out to do. Bam ! the powerful woman in the world is Team Stark now. 

And yes, it’s hypocritical  to be nasty to Dany who is coming as an ally and a friend of your brother, yet keep the snake around who sold you to a rapist because you had weird feelings of attachment to him and because you recognized he was valuable. It’s hypocritical as shit and just because people call the character out for being written as such, doesn’t make us haters. But it’s also super annoying to have Sansa consistently defended for every little criticism. It’s like she’s untouchable but yeah, let’s throw every other character under the bus in her defense. 

The north are a bunch of shortsighted asshats and at this point they deserve the Randall Tarly treatment.

[anamika]

25 minutes ago, nikma said:

I see no difference between being angry at Targs and Lannisters. Both sides did a lot of bad things againt the North.

What did Dany do to the North as opposed to Tyrion, Jaime and Cersei?

[LadyChaos]

Ok, did Friki say that the source that leaked the Tyrion betrayal, was a different source?

Because Im wondering if it would be another fake out. Like the person that leaked it, only saw part of something, or didn't know everything? Maybe they saw something and misinterpreted it? Because right now, I see nothing that gives a legitimate reason to why Tyrion would betray the Stargaryen alliance.

[Eyes High]

6 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

Ok, did Friki say that the source that leaked the Tyrion betrayal, was a different source?

Because Im wondering if it would be another fake out. Like the person that leaked it, only saw part of something, or didn't know everything? Maybe they saw something and misinterpreted it? Because right now, I see nothing that gives a legitimate reason to why Tyrion would betray the Stargaryen alliance.

The Dragonpit source is not the 8x01 source. It makes sense when you think about it: the Dragonpit source would have been someone in Seville who may have worked with the crew, who could see the scene being filmed (Friki previously described Tyrion’s appearance during the trial and gave a description today of what Tyrion supposedly looked like during his trial down to the colour of his shirt) but who was missing a lot of details about what was said and context. Someone who saw things being filmed (or wanted to persuade Friki of that), thus having details about the colours of actors’ costumes.

The 8x01 source knows the dialogue of all scenes and the sequence, so they’d have access to the episodes themselves and would only have that access once the episodes were ready, shortly before airing.

The source who provided accurate information about the trailer to Friki was not the Dragonpit source, either.

Edited March 22, 2019 by Eyes High

[nikma]

Was Alfie filming after May? 

[Minneapple]

23 minutes ago, GraceK said:

Whataboutism not a legitimate argument, and it’s tiresome. Not many people applauded Arya being a little rage monster last season in Winterfell. Her beef with Sansa was just as stupid and misdirected and she came across a Petulant brat. And I love the girl. Why does Sansas every single action need to be defended? He’s not the only one who made a deal with Cersei. Tyrion did as well, and so did Dany. Hell, Jaime tried to run her down with a sword a few episodes prior,  Cersei outmaneuvered her Hand and took out both of her allies and still Daenarys managed to come to the Dragonpit and commit to a ceasefire with grace and look Jaime in the eye with civility. Sansa should trust Jon now. Her all seeing magical brother should be able to fill her in, and Jon has literally trusted her enough to give her control of the north in his absence. He has done nothing but show her his love and respect, in fact, he has shown her so much love and respect that people actually Ship them to an alarming degree. It’s only Sansa who has been continuously critical of  every move he makes. And let’s be honest, since her magnificent rescue in the BOTB, what other awe inspiring advice has she contributed that will save the realm from the WW? Besides the Vale army, what can she do? Can she provide ten thousands of soldiers? Dragonglass? Mystical beasts? She has stored up food but preparing for a long night is useless when you are dead. What advice can she give him that Davos lacks? An apocalypse is coming and she’s pissed a Targaryen is here and Jons not enough of a feminist to do what she says 🙄 which again, has been nothing but Cersei is dangerous and don’t go to Dragonstone. Everyone is an idiot for trusting Cersei so she will be validated on that one pretty soon, and second, he accomplished everything he set out to do. Bam ! the powerful woman in the world is Team Stark now. 

And yes, it’s hypocritical  to be nasty to Dany who is coming as an ally and a friend of your brother, yet keep the snake around who sold you to a rapist because you had weird feelings of attachment to him and because you recognized he was valuable. It’s hypocritical as shit and just because people call the character out for being written as such, doesn’t make us haters. But it’s also super annoying to have Sansa consistently defended for every little criticism. It’s like she’s untouchable but yeah, let’s throw every other character under the bus in her defense. 

The north are a bunch of shortsighted asshats and at this point they deserve the Randall Tarly treatment.

A lot of people applauded Arya for her behavior in Winterfell last season because apparently Sansa placating the lords was her trying to usurp Jon.

Sansa's every action needs to be defended because -- why does every action of hers needs to be called out? She was roasted when she tried to butter up Lyanna -- well, now we have Dany doing the same thing to Sansa. Let's see if the reaction is similar.

Jon may show Sansa love but he only respects her to a certain degree. Just as Sansa only respects Jon to a certain degree. He doesn't listen to her and she doesn't trust him. And, it appears Sansa is not only calling out Jon for making the deal with Cersei. She is also calling out Tyrion, who really should be the person called out, because really wtf Tyrion? 

I don't think Sansa kept Baelish around because she had any weird feelings of attachment to him. I think she felt he was dangerous and couldn't trust him, but wanted him close so she could keep her eye on him. Of course if the writing was better we would know for sure.

I agree the northmen are a bunch of shortsighted asshats but that doesn't mean they deserve to be burned to death.

I would argue that people ship Jon and Sansa because they have a lot of chemistry onscreen.  I mean clearly it ain't happening, but I'm not going to ship shame. Ship and let ship.

[bubble sparkly]

First, lol that riding on dragons makes Jon and Dany horny. They are going full Targ in S8 I guess!

Also, it would be hilarious if Jon and Dany called Sansa’s bluff about being in charge. They should tell her that will agree to put her in full control and let make all decisions, then ask her to outline her military strategy for the battle with the dead. They should also ask her if she is planning to lead their armies on horseback or dragonback, and Jon should offer longclaw to her so can kill WW. Sansa would probably piss her pants if she was actually put in charge and had to deal with all this stuff.

[LadyChaos]

22 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

The Dragonpit source is not the 8x01 source. It makes sense when you think about it: the Dragonpit source would have been someone in Seville who may have worked with the crew, who could see the scene being filmed (Friki previously described Tyrion’s appearance during the trial and gave a description today of what Tyrion supposedly looked like during his trial down to the colour of his shirt) but who was missing a lot of details about what was said and context. Someone who saw things being filmed (or wanted to persuade Friki of that), thus having details about the colours of actors’ costumes.

The 8x01 source knows the dialogue of all scenes and the sequence, so they’d have access to the episodes themselves and would only have that access once the episodes were ready, shortly before airing.

The source who provided accurate information about the trailer to Friki was not the Dragonpit source, either.

So Tyrion betrayal could be a false leak, or the 'leaker' could have taken something out of context? And Friki is assuming that Tyrion is lying in 801 bc he believes the leaker for the dragon pit scene even though its not his normal source.

Which again, given all the foreshadowing that HBO is doing in implicate Tyrion is a traitor, it could have been an intentional leak to fake us out.

2 minutes ago, bubble sparkly said:

First, lol that riding on dragons makes Jon and Dany horny. They are going full Targ in S8 I guess!

Also, it would be hilarious if Jon and Dany called Sansa’s bluff about being in charge. They should tell her that will agree to put her in full control and let make all decisions, then ask her to outline her military strategy for the battle with the dead. They should also ask her if she is planning to lead their armies on horseback or dragonback, and Jon should offer longclaw to her so can kill WW. Sansa would probably piss her pants if she was actually put in charge and had to deal with all this stuff.

Not for nothing, but Jon ordered every able bodied person from 10-60, male and female alike, to learn how to fight.  Yet, Sansa clearly thought she wasn't included in that order.

[screamin]

4 hours ago, tangerine95 said:

So he bends the knee because it's the one thing he can offer in return.

Jon could have offered an alliance as one monarch to another - as equals. "I agree to aid you in the battle against Cersei if we all fight the NK and survive." Win-win for both sides - Westeros and the world lives on; Dany gains the trust of the North and their armed support to get the Iron Throne; the North keeps a little negotiating power for the hazy future if they all survive. It's nothing to sneeze at...IIRC, Dorne negotiated its ruler keep the title 'Prince' when no other abdicating king got that privilege.

Yes, the North has less capacity for war - less power - than Dany with her army and dragons does. But a more powerful ruler agreeing to an alliance of equals would gain more trust than one subordinating the weaker one.

But instead of an alliance of equals - as Jon could have chosen - he decided to subordinate himself and the North to Dany, without ever having explained to the North what she had done to earn his abdicating the crown they had given him at great risk to themselves and handing over their allegiance to a stranger Targaryen without ever explaining what she had done to earn that much.

Yes, Dany could fry them all and the NK is coming, so the North needs her. But all the North knows of the NK is tales heard at second-hand from Jon. Even if they fully believed him - which it seems they do - they know that the NK has been safely locked behind the Wall for 8000 years. The Wall still stands as far as they know - all that would seem necessary is to bring the Night Watch back to full strength to man the defenses properly.

Then - pretty much all at once - the North finds out about Jon having demoted himself to Warden of the North, and meets their new monarch of whom they know practically nothing except that she's the Mad King's daughter, she has some scary-ass dragons, a Lannister Queen's Hand and a ton of soldiers to be fed...AND on top of that new ruler Jon is declaring that Cersei Lannister is ALSO their ally, at least for now - and sending a Lannister army to WF to 'help.' THEN creepy Bran suddenly declares that the Wall has fallen and the NK is on his way...the fairy-tale doom is coming, along with the all-too-real Lannister army that has slaughtered so many Northerners already. 

Under the circumstances, I think that the North panicking and lashing out at Jon is perfectly understandable. The NK's not there - but in Jon they have a more convenient target to lash out at who's already accustomed them to speaking openly to him. Granted, it's not rational - but politics isn't always a rational pursuit. Just look at politics nowadays. Panicky crowds do hasty, ill-judged things.

Quote

So Sansa accuses Jon of all this in front of a council of Northern houses instead of privately? That makes it even worse. Ugh.

Grailking says this happens after the assembly, not during it. As a private question from family, I think it's an allowable question, not an accusation. It is not a crime to have one's reason clouded by love. It's a mistake anyone can make - and asking the question can cause one to reflect on whether it has actually happened or not when one might not have realized it on one's own.

Edited March 22, 2019 by screamin

[Missrayn]

Here my question concerning Tyrion betrayal leak what it is motive?

When the betrayal happen?

I thought frikki thought it was for the greater good, but now he seem to believe in the long scheme theory?  multiples crimes Winteefell and kind landing ? Who did he betray Dany as the famous betray for love (here who can place what you like family, jealousy, control, castle rock...) or just the Stark? I have a hard time judging cause it always seems moving! 

I think for now I will assume he does because of his extreme guilty feeling, hate Dany and jon( or at least do not care about them or others)  cause that my only way to reconciliate this storyline. He does seem conflicting but sure of himself.  

Edited March 22, 2019 by Missrayn

[GraceK]

Here’s a question that doesn’t involve Sansa.

What do we think the NK message on the  wall is? 🧐 I’m starting to really get interested in this mysterious motivation 

[GrailKing]

[GrailKing]

Posted by

u/VixenH89

Viserion :(3 hours ago

Another Friki Translation from someone whose lived in Spain

Seems like there are gonna be a few of these lol but Spanish speakers seem to have slight differences in their translations

Ok so summary of frikidoctor’s spoilers:

Winterfell a. Jon x Dany arrive with the armies (Unsullied and Dothraki)

b. Bran is a hurry to tell them the Wall has fallen and the NK has Viserion

c. We get the S 1 parallel where Sansa greets Jonerys in the court: Sansa is very cold; Dany will tray to talk to her about how the North is beautiful and its people are interesting

d. Meeting in the Great Hall (or whatever) Jon in the centre, Sansa and Dany flanking him (Dany looks cold) – Jon introduces Dany. The Umber boy is there to offer his men. Jon tells everyone the NK has Viserion and the Wall has fallen. We get Lyanna Mormont saying Jon is still KiTN but he will tell them that they need allies and only together they will survive. He brings up Cersei because she promised her troops in S7. Tyrion will speak in favour of Cersei, and he is convinced she will send the army (Friki thinks he is faking it because big betrayal) even if we as an audience know it’s bullshit. Northern Lords are pissed because WHAT DO YOU MEAN WE NEED TO TRUST LANNISTERS and they flip. Jon says they need all the allies. The meeting ends on a tense note.

e. Sansa and Tyrion chat about their marriage (albeit it’s invalid because non consummation) and she asks him DO YOU REALLY TRUST CERSEI – and Tyrion speaks again in Cersei’s favour because he thinks she is preggers so he thinks she has a reason to fight (Friki stil doesn’t trust what Tyrion says)

f. JON x ARYA reunion – she show him needle and she is a bit shy and worried about telling Jon because she is an assassin; the Stick them with the pointy end comes up. Arya realises Sansa doesn’t like Dany and Jon asks her to help him – talk to Sansa about Dany and vice versa because they need to bring them together

2. King’s Landing

a. Euron arrives with the Golden Company

b. Quyburn tells Cersei that the NK has Viserion and breached the Wall and she is smiling (trailer) (although Friki doesn’t know how he knows this) because she thinks this means Dany and the North will die

c. He presents Harry Strickland in the IT room to Cersei

d. No elephants for the GC

e.Euron blackmails Cersei to sleep with him and Cersei has no choice if she wants the GC so she has no choice but to do so

f. Euron has Yara and he doesn’t kill her because she is family

g.Theon saves Yara (confirmed that Yara is at the Tyrion trial) and he asks to go to WF to help the Straks (the dummies we saw are Theon’s men)

3. Back at Winterfell

a. Davos Varys and Tyrion know Jonerys is a thing and they are so obvious and in love and everyone can see it

b. The Karstark troops arrive

c. The scene in the trailer where Drogon and Rhaegal are with some charred bones – they are close to WF and close to the Dothraki because they are used to them. Dany takes Jon to dragon riding 101 (this is pre-reveal y’all!) – and they are being soft and she is like ok so you now ride Rhaegal. He eventually does (apparently because they know he NK has Viserion Dany will suggest this to Jon since he was able to tough Drogon). After they fly they have a heated kiss.

d. Arya and the Hound reunion and he calls her out about leaving him to die but not killing him

e. Arya and Gendry reunion – she asks him to modify the Valyrian dagger and apparently, he makes her a spear (the one we see her fight with in the video). Gendrya is real and he will call her My Lady and she will hate it and they have sexual tension and she remembers all their attraction.

f. Council – Sansa is antagonising Jon again about bending the knee and she thinks he is not listening to her and asks him “Did you bend the knee for the North of for love?” She says he is still KiTN and he needs to fight for the North and not a foreign Queen. He says they are allies, but she pushes for explanations about bending the knee and reproaches him that. But we get jonerys vibes throughout this scene

g. Dany tells Sam about the Tarly incident with the help of Jorah – he tells Dany how sal cured him. She comes clean to Sam. He is not surprised by his dad, but he is a bit sad about Dickon. Yet he is very honourable and doesn’t hold it against her. He is distraught and goes to Bran. Bran presses him to tell Jon about the R&L.

h.Jon is in the crypts in front of Ned’s statue. Sam comes and tells him 3 things: about Dany and his dad and bro (he is not against Dany); Jon takes Dany’s side and says they are allies. He then tells him about R&L and that he is the legitimate heir to the IT. Jon is in denial because Ned would never because he is so honourable. Sam explains that Ned had no other choice or he would be dead. Jon keeps saying Dany is the Queen of the 7K. And the scene cuts like that.

4. Castle Black

a. Tormund + Edd + Beric

b. The NK comes for CB and CB will fall

c. The trio wants to somehow let WF now about the Wall and Viserion (they don’t know they already know thanks to Bran)

d.Something is uncovered when the Wall falls at CB and there are some WW/ NK symbols or mysterious message when the Wall falls (maybe drawings)

e. When we see the AOTD we will see some old NW brothers risen

[spaceghostess]

1 hour ago, GraceK said:

Here’s a question that doesn’t involve Sansa.

What do we think the NK message on the  wall is? 🧐 I’m starting to really get interested in this mysterious motivation 

Night King @IceIceBaby . 18hr

I'm coming for you with my HUGE Army of BILLIONS--far superior to your tiny, LAME army! After my Amazing Wights win for me, we'll build our own Beautiful Wall so much better than your weak & LOUSY wall. Everyone knows NK is The Best and Jon Snow is a low-IQ LOSER!!! #MakeWesterosGreatAgain

[GraceK]

7 minutes ago, spaceghostess said:

Night King @IceIceBaby . 18hr

I'm coming for you with my HUGE Army of BILLIONS--far superior to your tiny, LAME army! After my Amazing Wights win for me, we'll build our own Beautiful Wall so much better than your weak & LOUSY wall. Everyone knows NK is The Best and Jon Snow is a low-IQ LOSER!!! #MakeWesterosGreatAgain

You win for best post ever 😂😂😂😂🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[spaceghostess]

2 minutes ago, GraceK said:

You win for best post ever 😂😂😂😂🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

Thanks--can't believe no one beat me to it!

[Happy Harpy]

6 hours ago, Minneapple said:

As for wearing a lady's mask. Everyone applauds Arya for being quick to judgment and not being ladylike. Dany rides her dragons into battle and demands people bend the knee. But when Sansa dares to not act like a perfect agreeable lady, it's not acceptable.

Because that's who Sansa is supposed to be. "Porcelain, ivory, steel", right? It's supposed to be her strength, we're told over and over. My favorite "badass" Sansa moment is she picking up a cup from the floor, so I don't  need for her to be a warrior to like her and I don't think my expectations are too high. However, she can't be the voice of reason and of wisdom, she can't be the great diplomat and politician if she can't see the big picture or keep herself in check publicly; for 8x01 at least, she can't. The "initially" in interviews gives me hope it will change, the sooner the better.

6 hours ago, Missrayn said:

Good, for Arya and Gendry but I am in the minority, I really believe they can be the end game couple for Arya.

I believe they could be, and it's encouraging that after the absence of mention to other characters in season 7 they not only have scenes together but don't act like strangers. I don't remember this show ship-teasing, it's usually point A-to-point-B level of directness; except for Bronn and Tyene maybe, which had no chance of being canon. I'm more and more convinced that the scene with a Northern girl hitting on a character and another character being jealous will be about Gendry and Arya; I don't know if it's in episode 1 and it's part of the "sexual tension" Friki mentions, or if it's in episode 2.

I'm also curious about the Hound/Arya, and he reproaching her with letting him die; after all in 7x07 he held no grudge. Friki didn't talk about Arya's reaction or how it's solved exactly.

It's funny to see how fleakers got everything wrong, or how they came close at times (the production sheet one had a few hits, in between huge misses, LOL).

OTOH, the message left by the NK (like the fact that the NK has a target, mentioned by the actor) seems to support the info provided by Boatsexbaby about the WW motivations. Since BSB and Friki disagreed about what was filmed in Seville, it's going to be interesting (it isn't impossible that both had partial info, though).

[anamika]

Bran continues to be absolutely useless on this show. Other than monotonously annoy people, what's his frigging use.

Like why is Sansa asking Tyrion if Cersei can be trusted? Why not ask the 3ER? She asked Bran last season towards the end about LF for information. Why cannot she do the same now?

Why can't Bran look up what Cersei's doing in KL and be like - yeah, she's not coming. It's just Jaime. Sorry. Why can't he send some ravens to see if an army is coming and then tell the Stark-Targ alliance that Cersei is not coming? Why can't Bran just tell everyone the danger - they used him for LF's trial. If his words hold importance then, why not now.

[nikma]

If they use Bran every time story becomes useless.