Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[WindyNights]

3 hours ago, glowbug said:

I think it’s pretty clear that Jon, the father of her child, is Dany’s true love. There’s some foreshadowing of their relationship in the books too. I think it’s telling that both in the show and the books Dany doesn’t really mourn or mention Drogo too much after the first book/season. If he’s meant to be her true love shouldn’t she bring him up more? Shouldn’t she be mourning longer over his death?

And it isn’t Dany who promises Drogo that they will be together again. Mirri Maz Duur prophecizes that Drogo will return to Dany when certain, seemingly impossible, things come to pass, including her womb quickening and bearing a living child. Dany and, I suspect, MMD both think the conditions of the prophecy can never be met and so they both believe Drogo will never return to Dany. In the books the prophecy is coming to pass, just not literally, so it’s likely Drogo will return to Dany in some way but it’s not clear how. They changed the prophecy in significant ways in the show. Dany asks when Drogo will be as he was rather than when he will return to her, and MMD says her prophecy but leaves out the part about her womb quickening and having a living child, and in the show the prophecy isn’t coming true. I do wonder why TPTB decided to leave out the parts they did and why they changed the end result of the prophecy from Drogo returning to Dany to Drogo being what he was. Is it because they didn’t know what was going to happen or because they thought it was giving too much of the plot away or some other reason. It’s mainly because of MMD’s prophecy in the books that I fear Dany will die in the end but her dying is only one possible way Drogo can be returned to her so it’s far from certain. One thing we can be pretty certain of is that Dany will have a child and the show has confirmed the father is Jon and I think that child will be significant in some way. 

 

GRRM doesn't believe in "true" love as in there's only one person in th world made for you. He makes this clear in A Song for Lya. 

Love exists and all but people move on and find someone else to love when they can't be with the one they love anymore.

 

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One other thing, Daenerys thinks about Drogo quite often in the books and it's made that clear that she misses him a lot and wears the white lion cloak that smells like him for comfort.

Edited January 28, 2019 by WindyNights

[Morrigan2575]

I have to admit my mind is kind of blown by the idea that there are insiders betting on a TV Show's ending.

[glowbug]

58 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

GRRM doesn't believe in "true" love as in there's only one person in th world made for you. He makes this clear in A Song for Lya. 

Love exists and all but people move on and find someone else to love when they can't be with the one they love anymore.

 

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One other thing, Daenerys thinks about Drogo quite often in the books and it's made that clear that she misses him a lot and wears the white lion cloak that smells like him for comfort.

 

I don't mean true love as in soul mate. I'm not suggesting that Dany didn't love Drogo (as problematic as that was) or that Jon didn't love Ygritte, or that Jon couldn't be happy with someone else or that Dany couldn't be happy with someone else. If either survives without the other I'm not saying it's impossible they wouldn't fall in love again. I just think in terms of romantic relationships, Jon will be Dany's most significant love and she will be his. I haven't read any of GRRM's other works but I hope he doesn't believe that all romantic relationships are equal in significance, or that it's impossible to be more in love with one person than another, or that one love isn't better (e.g. healthier, more mature, deeper, etc.) than another.

I disagree that Dany thinks of Khal Drogo often in the books after book one. I just looked up all the instances where she thinks of Drogo (searching for his name) and aside from her first chapter in A Clash of Kings the mentions of him aren't that frequent and they're mostly matter of fact. There is very little mention of how much she misses him, how sad she is that he's gone, etc. In fact, she has to remind herself a few times in A Storm of Swords that she doesn't want Daario or Jorah or someone else other than Drogo. In the show the mentions of him are even fewer and there aren't a lot of indications that she's thinking about him or mourning his loss. If Drogo is supposed to be her greatest love as another poster suggested, I would expect her to think of him more frequently and with much more sorrow. 

Edited January 28, 2019 by glowbug

[ursula]

2 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I have to admit my mind is kind of blown by the idea that there are insiders betting on a TV Show's ending.

Thank you! Everyone's being so blaise about it, I was feeling so out of touch! 🤣

 

2 hours ago, glowbug said:

I'm not suggesting that Dany didn't love Drogo (as problematic as that was)

She thought she loved him, when she was 13 and her yardstick for affection was the "tender loving care" of her abusive older brother. Five seasons later, Dany told her court that Drogo raped her. I think that, to put it mildly, she's moved on. 

Edited January 29, 2019 by ursula

[bubble sparkly]

2 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

 

I have to admit my mind is kind of blown by the idea that there are insiders betting on a TV Show's ending.

 

Okay so in one of the recent seasons of the Bachelor AU there was much betting drama. One girl was identified as an early favourite and people who didn’t even watch the show were placing bets that she would win because everyone seemed to know her sister’s cousin’s friend etc. who confirmed that she was indeed the winner.

By the time it got to a couple of weeks before the finale there was so much betting activity that her odds were ridiculously low.

Anyway, cut to the finale night when the Honey Badger (yes, the guy gave himself this nickname) pulled a Kelly Taylor and picked himself. Dude incurred the ire of a nation, especially the punters. Luckily for the punters the bookies declared it a wash and refunded people’s bets.

I will be interested to see if the Bran stuff is legit or if it’s another Honey Badger situation.

[glowbug]

Why wouldn’t show runners and/or networks poison the betting pool by intentionally paying people to bet on the wrong outcome? That seems like a fairly inexpensive way of obscuring the end result. I’m not saying that’s what’s happening with GOT and Bran but that’s what I would do if I were a network/show runner. 

[WindyNights]

3 minutes ago, glowbug said:

Why wouldn’t show runners and/or networks poison the betting pool by intentionally paying people to bet on the wrong outcome? That seems like a fairly inexpensive way of obscuring the end result. I’m not saying that’s what’s happening with GOT and Bran but that’s what I would do if I were a network/show runner. 

They would be doing something about Friki if that were true or have done something when the betters correctly predicted Queen Cersei at the end of last season.

[GraceK]

There is nothing shady about gambling guys!! Online betting, insider trading, and anything having to do with money and bets are always on the up and up. Especially when it comes to internet betting. If these sites are saying that Bran is the front contender for endgame King, then Im pretty sure I’m gonna start cashing out my 401k and start planning for my cruise to the Bahamas.👍🏻😂

Edited January 29, 2019 by GraceK

[Smad]

9 hours ago, Minneapple said:

I don't know about the baby, but Jon's is the song of Ice and Fire. He's a Targaryen and a Stark. 

In the show that's for sure. But the show isn't called ASOIAF so D&D don't have to deal with that mystery. And even in the books, if you get technical, the title can only refer to Jon if the title is actually about a person instead of being a metaphor. The only way the book title would refer to both Jon and Dany is if R+L=J is in fact wrong. Otherwise the title would have to be 'A song of Fire, Ice and Fire' or any combination there of. If the title refers to a child of Jon and Dany, then the title is still wrong. As their child (with R+L in place) would be Fire, Fire, Fire and Ice.

[anamika]

A Song of Ice and Fire is about the threat beyond the wall and Dany and her dragons as per GRRM at around the 4 minute mark....

The Ice can be the Others, Bran, Jon, the Starks, the Fire can be Dany, dragons, Jon, Targaryens, Ice and Fire can be a clash of these things, can be Jon, can be Jon and Dany's kid. It can be many things.

Quote

And it is important that the individual books refer to the civil wars, but the series title reminds us constantly that the real issue lies in the North beyond the Wall. Stannis becomes one of the few characters fully to understand that, which is why in spite of everything he is a righteous man, and not just a version of Henry VII, Tiberius or Louis XI.

Quote

Why your saga is called A Song of Ice and Fire, because of the Wall and the dragons or is something more beyond that?

Oh! That’s the obvious thing but yes, there’s more. People say I was influenced by Robert Frost’s poem, and of course I was, I mean... Fire is love, fire is passion, fire is sexual ardor and all of these things. Ice is betrayal, ice is revenge, ice is… you know, that kind of cold inhumanity and all that stuff is being played out in the books.

http://www.adriasnews.com/2012/10/george-r-r-martin-interview.html?spref=tw

Robert Frost's Poem:

Quote

Some say the world will end in fire,

Some say in ice.

From what I’ve tasted of desire

I hold with those who favor fire.

But if it had to perish twice,

I think I know enough of hate

To say that for destruction ice

Is also great

And would suffice.

Edited January 29, 2019 by anamika

[Tallulah7606]

I know it’s an unpopular opinion, but will anyone else be weirdly sad if Cersei does meet her maker in season 8? 

I know she’s a super bitch, and all kinds of evil, but I also love her. I love any scene she’s in, and I can’t figute out why 

[onyxrose81]

Nope.  Cersei is cray and not really in the entertaining way, not anymore.  I'll be glad to see the back of her.  Tywin as a villain was great and I miss him but Cersei is delusional, and even moreso in the books.  Tywin had a plan and a goal, Cersei just wants to watch the world burn.

[YaddaYadda]

1 hour ago, Tallulah7606 said:

I know it’s an unpopular opinion, but will anyone else be weirdly sad if Cersei does meet her maker in season 8? 

Nope. Girlfriend has overstayed her welcome. She should have been 86'd last season. Her being written as being Tywin-lite last season and winning at everything last season was very tiresome. 

Her being alive most of this coming season is annoying. 

I do love book!Cersei, though. I still want her to die, but I love her.

[Tallulah7606]

21 minutes ago, onyxrose81 said:

Tywin as a villain was great and I miss him but Cersei is delusional, and even moreso in the books.  Tywin had a plan and a goal, Cersei just wants to watch the world burn.

Yes!! I loved Tywin. He was ruthless, but clever. I love Charles Dance though, so to be honest, I’d love any character he played 

[Greta]

I would love for Cersei to live, not triumph, but live to see everything stripped away from her as she slowly withers and dies.  I think there's a bit of foreshadowing in the books, when Cersei repeatedly thinks with horror about the Maidenvault, where Baelor kept his sisters imprisoned.  There's also the Melara in the well story in the books, which is somewhat echoed in the show with Ellaria in the dungeon. I could see an ending where Cersei is imprisoned, either in KL or at Casterly Rock by Tyrion or Jaime, and left to grow old while knowing the world and all the power games she loved are going on just outside her cell.

That's a really slow choking the life out of her by a little brother.

Edited January 29, 2019 by Greta
Grammar is my friend.

[Leroux]

1 hour ago, Greta said:

I would love for Cersei to live, not triumph, but live to see everything stripped away from her as she slowly withers and dies.  I think there's a bit of foreshadowing in the books, when Cersei repeatedly thinks with horror about the Maidenvault, where Baelor kept his sisters imprisoned.  There's also the Melara in the well story in the books, which is somewhat echoed in the show with Ellaria in the dungeon. I could see an ending where Cersei is imprisoned, either in KL or at Casterly Rock by Tyrion or Jaime, and left to grow old while knowing the world and all the power games she loved are going on just outside her cell.

That's a really slow choking the life out of her by a little brother.

I always thought that Tyrion was the little brother but now I am more inclined to believe that it will be Jaime the one who will end up killing Cersei 

I know they are twins but does anyone know who was born first? If Cersei was then technically Jaime could be consider a younger brother. 

I would love for her to be jailed and have to witness the reign of another one "younger and prettier" but unfortunately Cersei will never give up, she will fight until her last breath to cause problems for the new ruler, in this case her death is the only possible way.  

[WindyNights]

1 hour ago, Leroux said:

I always thought that Tyrion was the little brother but now I am more inclined to believe that it will be Jaime the one who will end up killing Cersei 

I know they are twins but does anyone know who was born first? If Cersei was then technically Jaime could be consider a younger brother. 

I would love for her to be jailed and have to witness the reign of another one "younger and prettier" but unfortunately Cersei will never give up, she will fight until her last breath to cause problems for the new ruler, in this case her death is the only possible way.  

Jaime is younger than Cersei, yes.

[ursula]

It's part of her bitterness - that her sex denied her her rights as first born.

[MrsR]

13 hours ago, Smad said:

In the show that's for sure. But the show isn't called ASOIAF so D&D don't have to deal with that mystery. And even in the books, if you get technical, the title can only refer to Jon if the title is actually about a person instead of being a metaphor. The only way the book title would refer to both Jon and Dany is if R+L=J is in fact wrong. Otherwise the title would have to be 'A song of Fire, Ice and Fire' or any combination there of. If the title refers to a child of Jon and Dany, then the title is still wrong. As their child (with R+L in place) would be Fire, Fire, Fire and Ice.

No. Just no. Again no.

This isn't science. This is literature and the one thing I know for sure is that there are NO RULES. And something can have multiple levels.

A work can be literal and metaphorical at the same time. It can be literal, metaphorical, allegorical and commercial all at the same time.

The Divine Comedy. Ulysses by James Joyce. The Poetry of e.e. cummings.  These are works that follow no rules.

[Eyes High]

The Whispers of Westeros website has gone live again. According to /Freefolk, the last time the website went live, it was used to launch the trailer within the next seven days. The Super Bowl is this Sunday. So does that mean we could be looking at a Super Bowl trailer after all...? HBO paid for a Super Bowl trailer for Season 2 of Westworld last year, but it seems early for a full trailer yet.

[SeanC]

14 hours ago, Smad said:

In the show that's for sure. But the show isn't called ASOIAF so D&D don't have to deal with that mystery. And even in the books, if you get technical, the title can only refer to Jon if the title is actually about a person instead of being a metaphor. The only way the book title would refer to both Jon and Dany is if R+L=J is in fact wrong. Otherwise the title would have to be 'A song of Fire, Ice and Fire' or any combination there of. If the title refers to a child of Jon and Dany, then the title is still wrong. As their child (with R+L in place) would be Fire, Fire, Fire and Ice.

GRRM has said many times that "ice and fire" has multiple meanings to him.  Jon is certainly both ice and fire by ancestry, but by nurture he is exclusively ice, while Dany is fire.  Ice and fire also refers to the Others (ice) and the dragons (fire), and so on.

[John Potts]

7 hours ago, Greta said:

I would love for Cersei to live, not triumph, but live to see everything stripped away from her as she slowly withers and dies.  I think there's a bit of foreshadowing in the books, when Cersei repeatedly thinks with horror about the Maidenvault, where Baelor kept his sisters imprisoned. 

I'm always reminded that the prophecy of the YMBQ does not explicitly state that Cersei will die but that the Valonquar will (IIRC) "wrap his hands about [her] pale throat and choke the life from her." If Tyrion as Hand were to imprison Cersei a dungeon somewhere (either the Black Cells, or the Maidenvault) it would certainly "choke the life" out of Cersei. I doubt it will happen (too many people want Cersei dead - and it's probably too much of a risk to leave her alive in any case) but it would be a suitably twisty resolution of the Prophecy.

[Smad]

7 hours ago, SeanC said:

GRRM has said many times that "ice and fire" has multiple meanings to him.  Jon is certainly both ice and fire by ancestry, but by nurture he is exclusively ice, while Dany is fire.  Ice and fire also refers to the Others (ice) and the dragons (fire), and so on.

And I never said it didn't. What I wrote was in regards for the title referring to a specific person or two people and their child and how the title wouldn't be correct if one theory is true. Don't see what the big deal is that people act as if I don't get that it has multiple meanings (even though I literally mentioned that in my quote).

[Colorful Mess]

5 hours ago, Smad said:

And I never said it didn't. What I wrote was in regards for the title referring to a specific person or two people and their child and how the title wouldn't be correct if one theory is true. Don't see what the big deal is that people act as if I don't get that it has multiple meanings (even though I literally mentioned that in my quote).

I agree, if Mel thinks she "brought ice and fire together,"  when its like...okay Mel is wrong as usual. She doesn't even know that Jon himself is ice and fire.

Why is a special ice and fire baby necessary when there is already one, Jon, the guy we've been watching for seven seasons? 

One could argue that his parents fulfilled one criteria for the Pact of Ice and Fire in the books, a Targaryen/Stark marriage, so even Lyanna + Rhaegar could fit the ice and fire thing--they just caused a lot of destruction together. Which Jon and Dany will probably continue to do, if S7 is anything to go by. 

Edited January 30, 2019 by Colorful Mess

[Colorful Mess]

On 1/28/2019 at 11:03 AM, glowbug said:

Mirri Maz Duur prophecizes that Drogo will return to Dany when certain, seemingly impossible, things come to pass, including her womb quickening and bearing a living child. Dany and, I suspect, MMD both think the conditions of the prophecy can never be met and so they both believe Drogo will never return to Dany. In the books the prophecy is coming to pass, just not literally, so it’s likely Drogo will return to Dany in some way but it’s not clear how.

It's unclear if its a prophecy or simply a figure of speech. The last part could be Mirri's assessment as a midwife. And anyway, my personal take is that she won't have a child (that lives). Bran can't use his legs. Dany can't have children. Sometimes people just have physical problems they cant overcome. This story is very brutal about things but I appreciate that harshness in a fantasy story. Dany having a child is about as fantastical as Bran walking again.

Edited January 30, 2019 by Colorful Mess

[SimoneS]

2 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

 Dany having a child is about as fantastical as Bran walking again.

 

The idea that a random midwife who hates Dany knows if she can or cannot have a baby is actually fantastical. Too many of the pronouncements in this story are interpreted by people as prophecies that must come true even as we have seen that not happening.

Edited January 30, 2019 by SimoneS

[bubble sparkly]

17 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

Too many of the pronouncements in this story are interpreted by people as prophecies that must come true even as we have seen that not happening.

For sure. Dany pretty clearly has a miscarriage in the books after accidentally eating abortion berries. It seems likely the baby was Hizdar’s, suggesting Daario could have been shooting blanks. So it appears that GRRM is setting it up so that Book!Dany has never actually been infertile, a fact she will probably discover after sleeping with Book!Jon (if/when GRRM ever actually gets around to writing this lol).

The show appears to be going in the same direction with Dany’s fertility. D&D had Jon straight up tell Dany that MMD was probably lying, and basically offer to prove MMD wrong by knocking Dany up.

[Colorful Mess]

12 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

The idea that a random midwife who hates Dany knows for if she can or cannot have a baby is actually fantastical. Too many of the pronouncements in this story are interpreted by people as prophecies that must come true even as we have seen that not happening.

Like I said, its unclear if its a prophecy or an assessment of Dany's physical state, a figure of speech, or the author inserting a way to tell the reader this info. But if it is a prophecy, Cersei also had her fortune read by a witch and children were discussed, and that came to pass. 

Dany is far too magical already. Dany being fire proof is fantastical. Dany walking out of a fire unhurt is fantastical. Dany hatching and riding dragons is--you get the idea. 

Dany being infertile is realistic. Its realistic considering she's the child of multiple generations of incest. It is realistic in a story where everyone has physical or mental problems that cant be "fixed." 

I know I may be throwing cold water on everyone's baby fever but I still think this story has a reputation for gritty realism. Thats what made it stand apart in the genre and what GRRM says is the theme of his entire life's work, fantasy wrestling with reality.

[Colorful Mess]

29 minutes ago, bubble sparkly said:

So it appears that GRRM is setting it up so that Book!Dany has never actually been infertile, a fact she will probably discover after sleeping with Book!Jon (if/when GRRM ever actually gets around to writing this lol).

Tendency to miscarry could be a sign of infertility. Infertility can still mean ability to get pregnant.

As for those scenes, there are different interpretations of what the show is setting up.

Usually they set up stuff to crush peoples hopes, characters and audiences alike. And far too many people are hoping for it.

These are the guys who stabbed a pregnant woman in the stomach for the shock value.

[SimoneS]

37 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

Dany being infertile is realistic. Its realistic considering she's the child of multiple generations of incest. It is realistic in a story where everyone has physical or mental problems that cant be "fixed." 

There is nothing realistic about what you are claiming here. Other than the kitchen science thrown around in society, there is absolutely no evidence that incest contributes to infertility or even genetic problems unless they already exist in the family and the Targaryens are extremely fertile.

 

37 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

Dany is far too magical already. Dany being fire proof is fantastical. Dany walking out of a fire unhurt is fantastical. Dany hatching and riding dragons is--you get the idea. 

I have never read a science fantasy novels where a character is too magical to have a child. What you are claiming here simply never happens in the stories in this genre.

 

37 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

I know I may be throwing cold water on everyone's baby fever but I still think this story has a reputation for gritty realism. Thats what made it stand apart in the genre and what GRRM says is the theme of his entire life's work, fantasy wrestling with reality.

This cracks me up. For the last few seasons, I pointed that it was obvious that the story was driving to Jon and Dany have a child. Yet people bitterly attacked me using Mirri's random comment (notably Jon echoed my opinion) as evidence. Now that the show has practically telegraphed that a baby is coming and these same people have finally come around, you are insisting that they all have "baby fever." 

Edited January 30, 2019 by SimoneS

[Colorful Mess]

1 hour ago, SimoneS said:

I have never read a science fantasy novels where a character is too magical to have a child. What you are claiming here simply never happens in these types of story. 

I have never read a story where a woman who thought she was infertile actually wasnt because it was ONLY her nephew's magic sperm that could fix her womb right up. 

And while I have read stories where people lived with physical problems without a cure EXCEPT for the magical heroine, these stories usually suck.

1 hour ago, SimoneS said:

There is nothing realistic about what you are claiming here. Other than the kitchen science thrown around in society, there is absolutely no evidence that incest contributes to infertility or even genetic problems unless they already exist in the families and the Targareyns are extremely fertile.

Generations of incest increase risk of infertility. I could cite stuff but thats not necessary, there's a lot out there in science journals. Charles II was infertile and scientists have linked that to his inbreeding coefficient. So went the Hapsburgs.

The infertility problems seemed to increase for the Targaryens as the inbreeding coefficient increased. Dany's mom had multiple stillbirths and miscarriages.

My take on this is, the author is giving the Targaryens consequences for their choices to inbreed like they did. Their Doctrine of Exceptionalism comes with a price. All incest dynasties end, usually no longer than the 300 year mark.

Ironically, "breaking the wheel," Dany's own plans, doesnt involve a Targaryen restoration with a special baby who is the next Targaryen hope. Why did they write that in then? Just to have Dany look like a hypocrite in the future? If she doesn't want to do that, Dany should send her child (if she even has one) to the Citadel or Nights Watch like Aemon. 

[SimoneS]

37 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

I have never read a story where a woman who thought she was infertile actually wasnt because it was ONLY her nephew's magic sperm that could fix her womb right up. And while I have read stories where people lived with physical problems without a cure EXCEPT for the magical heroine, these stories usually suck.

It isn't on the story that you and others for the years decided that Dany is infertile because some woman claims that she is. No clue what sci fantasy you are claiming to have read here so I'll just take a pass here. As for the rest about genetics and inbreeding, there is so much incorrect interpretation of scientific studies, I wouldn't know where to begin and this is not the forum for that discussion. And I am done with this conversation.

Edited January 30, 2019 by SimoneS

[YaddaYadda]

This is such a weird conversation, but since Dany only slept with two men after Drogo's death, Daario and Hizdhar, and she seems to have had a miscarriage while she is in the Dothraki sea, the odds are good that Daario is the one with the fertility issues. There's really nothing complicated about this. Two men manage to get her pregnant, and one doesn't. 

I know Dany was not married to Hizdhar on the show.

[Colorful Mess]

Dwarfism is real, spinal cord injuries are real, amputations are real, PTSD is real, but Dany's infertility is fake? Do ya'll know how crazy that sounds? Some women miscarry, some women cant have kids. This is life.

[WindyNights]

4 hours ago, SimoneS said:

The idea that a random midwife who hates Dany knows if she can or cannot have a baby is actually fantastical. Too many of the pronouncements in this story are interpreted by people as prophecies that must come true even as we have seen that not happening.

Not random. The woman is a witch. She has credibility.

And most prophecies do come true in one way or another.

[Callista]

24 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

Dwarfism is real, spinal cord injuries are real, amputations are real, PTSD is real, but Dany's infertility is fake? Do ya'll know how crazy that sounds? Some women miscarry, some women cant have kids. This is life.

No, it doesn't sound crazy at all. Tyrion's being a dwarf and Bran's being a cripple are facts in the story. Dany's infertility, at this point in the story, is still a conjecture. Mirri's prophecy does not necessarily make it a fact. 

[Stella]

What I don't get is why many people are so invested in the awesomeness of this possible child and essentially believe it's a done deal in the show? When in fact it is in no way certain. And even if she gets pregnant it is likely she would miscarry since that is in line with the book. Also, Jon & Dany are not just like any old random Aunt and nephew having a kid(!) they are very heavily genetically similar. Magic sperm and infertility issues aside. It's not a good thing!

Targaryen restoration is such a weird obsession in the fandom. Like why would anyone think this is where GRRM is going with the story? There has got to be a better outcome than rewarding the family that practiced their belief in their blood purity through intense levels of incest and has WMD to enforce and hold their power. Just thinking about GRRM's worldview makes a Targaryen restoration seem ludicrous to me. 

[Minneapple]

19 minutes ago, Stella said:

What I don't get is why many people are so invested in the awesomeness of this possible child and essentially believe it's a done deal in the show? When in fact it is in no way certain. And even if she gets pregnant it is likely she would miscarry since that is in line with the book. Also, Jon & Dany are not just like any old random Aunt and nephew having a kid(!) they are very heavily genetically similar. Magic sperm and infertility issues aside. It's not a good thing!

Targaryen restoration is such a weird obsession in the fandom. Like why would anyone think this is where GRRM is going with the story? There has got to be a better outcome than rewarding the family that practiced their belief in their blood purity through intense levels of incest and has WMD to enforce and hold their power. Just thinking about GRRM's worldview makes a Targaryen restoration seem ludicrous to me. 

If Dany really wants to break the wheel then Targaryen restoration is the last thing she should want. In fact she thinks she's infertile, so where exactly does she think she's going to get Targ heirs if that's her goal?

Genetically, Jon and Dany are closer to being siblings than aunt and nephew.

[tangerine95]

I don't think GRRM is trying to show the evils of the Targ incest tbh.He doesn't seem to exactly view it in real world terms imo.He shows the Targs as pretty complex,we've seen both amazing rulers,benevolent ones,the crazy and cruel ones and the average ones.So I don't think the message is the Targs are an abomination that must end.Which is why I think regardless of if Jon and Dany end up on the throne or not or if they both survive,they're gonna have a kid that lives.I do feel pretty sure about that.I think the foreshadowing is there,I don't believe she'll miscarry because I don't see the point in that and it's repetitive with Cersei also having a miscarriage,I don't see the kid getting sacrificed or something.

Edited January 30, 2019 by tangerine95

[bubble sparkly]

2 hours ago, Stella said:

What I don't get is why many people are so invested in the awesomeness of this possible child and essentially believe it's a done deal in the show? When in fact it is in no way cer

Dany getting pregnant isn’t certain, realistically nothing much in s8 is certain as we don’t have many 100% legit spoilers (BSB and/or Friki could have legit info but neither of them have provided any real proof).

However, D&D are often criticized for not being subtle, and they were anything but subtle in s7 about Dany’s false belief in her infertility. Towards the end of the season we had Tyrion telling Dany she needed an heir and Dany bringing up her alleged infertility, and then Dany telling Jon that can’t have kids in their conversation on the boat in 7x06. Finally, in 7x07 Dany again told Jon she couldn’t have kids, and he flat out told her MMD was probably lying and insinuated that he would be happy to impregnate her. D&D, Kit and Lena even joked about Jon wanting to impregnate Dany in the DVD commentary for that scene. The season then ended with J/D having unprotected boatsex.

We were essentially hit over the head in s7 that Jon is going to impregnate Dany. Just like we were hit over the head that the Northern lords are going to hate Dany when they first meet her etc.

[ursula]

A lot of this is based on the concept that we have to take Mirri Maz's declaration as ex cathedra. And a lot of people have pointed out all the reasons she had for wanting to, twist the knife and f**k with Dany's head. But what really surprised me when I took the time to read the prophecy about Dany's "infertility" is that...

It's not a prophecy about Dany's infertility. 

Quote

"When will he [Drogo] be as he was?" Dany demanded.

"When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east," said Mirri Maz Duur, "When the seas go dry and the mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before."

Mirri never tells Dany she's infertile. Dany assumes that since Mirri chucked in her having a baby with a bunch of "when hell freezes over" events, then her having a baby is a "when hell freezes over" event. Ergo - infertility. 

But infertility just means you can't have a baby after trying (for at least a year without protection <35 and 6 months without protection >=35). It sounds ridiculously obvious but it might just be that Mirri believed Dany won't have a baby --- because she won't be able to try to have a baby. 

When Drogo diead, Dany became a member of the Dosh Khaleen, and she was fated to live the rest of her life in the Vaes Dothraki as, to all intents and purposes, as a crone. Essentially, she had just been conscripted into a celibate order, whether she liked it or not.

So Mirri wasn't "cursing" Dany or "diagnosing her" as much as stating the obvious: as Khal Drogo's widow, Dany ever having a child... had just become an impossible thing.

Edited January 30, 2019 by ursula

[anamika]

I found this little bit on the show funny:

Jon: You are not like everyone else. And your family has not seen it's end. You are still here.

Dany: I can't have children

Jon: Who told you that?

Dany: The witch who murdered my husband

Jon: Does it occur to you that she might not have been a reliable source of information ? (This line along with Jon's expression here!)

And that's it. It was a big misunderstanding. And Dany can have children.

3 hours ago, tangerine95 said:

I don't think GRRM is trying to show the evils of the Targ incest tbh.He doesn't seem to exactly view it in real world terms imo.

He has called Alysanne and Jaehaerys as having a great romance - if you accept that incestual romance can be a great romance - and good partners.

In essence GRRM does not care about the incest factor in this series. This is fantasy and incest does not have any biological effects - we got Jon and Dany after centuries of incest. GRRM has most probably modeled the Targs after the Egyptian Ptolemies. As GRRM points out, if people are bothered about the incest, then they may not like such relationships but GRRM thinks Alysanne and Jaehaerys is romantic.

GRRM is not going to wipe out any house. Even if all 3 Lannisters on the show die, in the books, there are still plenty of Lannisters. The Tyrells on the show are gone. They still are very present in the books. Edric Storm is going to take over for the Baratheons etc.

Considering this, there is no way he is going to wipe out the Targaryens - a house he finds fascinating and interesting enough to write about in his several side books.

I suspect the Stargaryen baby will start what will be the equivalent of the Tudor reign in Westeros - initiating the first official pact of Ice and Fire.

Edited January 31, 2019 by anamika

[GrailKing]

[SimoneS]

You would think that by now HBO has figured out who is Frikidoctor's source and shut that down. Much like Lads disappeared.

[SeanC]

Random:  what are the odds that Shae will be brought up in any capacity in Season 8 when Tyrion and Sansa meet again?  I’m guessing very low, especially since Sansa hasn’t made any reference to her since she left King’s Landing.

[Smad]

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

Random:  what are the odds that Shae will be brought up in any capacity in Season 8 when Tyrion and Sansa meet again?  I’m guessing very low, especially since Sansa hasn’t made any reference to her since she left King’s Landing.

They can't even keep things straight from episode to episode in one Season. And even if they rewatch (ala S1 for S7) they completely misunderstand what they actually put on screen (see Sansa's letter). So the chances of them remembering there used be a Shae are slim to none. And on the small chance that they do, they will probably get her name wrong.

[WindyNights]

On 1/30/2019 at 2:09 PM, ursula said:

A lot of this is based on the concept that we have to take Mirri Maz's declaration as ex cathedra. And a lot of people have pointed out all the reasons she had for wanting to, twist the knife and f**k with Dany's head. But what really surprised me when I took the time to read the prophecy about Dany's "infertility" is that...

It's not a prophecy about Dany's infertility. 

Mirri never tells Dany she's infertile. Dany assumes that since Mirri chucked in her having a baby with a bunch of "when hell freezes over" events, then her having a baby is a "when hell freezes over" event. Ergo - infertility. 

But infertility just means you can't have a baby after trying (for at least a year without protection <35 and 6 months without protection >=35). It sounds ridiculously obvious but it might just be that Mirri believed Dany won't have a baby --- because she won't be able to try to have a baby. 

When Drogo diead, Dany became a member of the Dosh Khaleen, and she was fated to live the rest of her life in the Vaes Dothraki as, to all intents and purposes, as a crone. Essentially, she had just been conscripted into a celibate order, whether she liked it or not.

So Mirri wasn't "cursing" Dany or "diagnosing her" as much as stating the obvious: as Khal Drogo's widow, Dany ever having a child... had just become an impossible thing.

You have to analyze it from the whole story at large. 

 

MMD's prophecy is a paralle to Maggy the Frog's prophecy. They're both imo prophecies of both their demises. Cersei dies once her children all die first and Daenerys dies once she brings a living child into this world.

[WindyNights]

On 1/30/2019 at 3:33 PM, anamika said:

I found this little bit on the show funny:

Jon: You are not like everyone else. And your family has not seen it's end. You are still here.

Dany: I can't have children

Jon: Who told you that?

Dany: The witch who murdered my husband

Jon: Does it occur to you that she might not have been a reliable source of information ? (This line along with Jon's expression here!)

And that's it. It was a big misunderstanding. And Dany can have children.

He has called Alysanne and Jaehaerys as having a great romance - if you accept that incestual romance can be a great romance - and good partners.

In essence GRRM does not care about the incest factor in this series. This is fantasy and incest does not have any biological effects - we got Jon and Dany after centuries of incest. GRRM has most probably modeled the Targs after the Egyptian Ptolemies. As GRRM points out, if people are bothered about the incest, then they may not like such relationships but GRRM thinks Alysanne and Jaehaerys is romantic.

 

GRRM is not going to wipe out any house. Even if all 3 Lannisters on the show die, in the books, there are still plenty of Lannisters. The Tyrells on the show are gone. They still are very present in the books. Edric Storm is going to take over for the Baratheons etc.

Considering this, there is no way he is going to wipe out the Targaryens - a house he finds fascinating and interesting enough to write about in his several side books.

I suspect the Stargaryen baby will start what will be the equivalent of the Tudor reign in Westeros - initiating the first official pact of Ice and Fire.

That's not actually true. 

 

GRRM has said this about the incest:

 

GRRM: The Targaryens have heavily interbred, like the Ptolemys of Egypt. As any horse or dog breeder can tell you, interbreeding accentuates both flaws and virtues, and pushes a lineage toward the extremes. Also, there's sometimes a fine line between madness and greatness.

 

 

Also House Baratheon may stay dead. Edric may not be legitimized 

[Eyes High]

23 hours ago, SeanC said:

Random:  what are the odds that Shae will be brought up in any capacity in Season 8 when Tyrion and Sansa meet again?  I’m guessing very low, especially since Sansa hasn’t made any reference to her since she left King’s Landing.

My first impulse was to say "slim to none," but there's going to be a lot of dead air in the first two episodes that needs to be filled, so I'm guessing there will be a lot of long, random-ass scenes to kill time. Shae may very well come up.

Even on the off-chance Sansa thinks to ask about Shae, I really doubt Sansa will care much about Shae's fate if she finds out that Shae gave false testimony about her at Tyrion's trial.

Edited February 1, 2019 by Eyes High

[anamika]

 So at Brazil comic con, John Bradley and Maisie had this interview:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCqOLgHhZno

At around the 4 minute mark, interviewer asks if they have ever accidentally spoiled something and both John and Maisie say - 'several times. Then John says that if in an interview we ever hear him say that's just a theory, and he is not saying that's what's going to happen, he just said something that will happen. Which reminded me of his interview in that podcast where he discusses a theory where the WW does not attack Sam in season 3 because he does not resist and fight back - and so they left him alone. John stresses this is just a theory he read online.

I wonder if this will be important to the endgame of the Others.

Maisie also mentions how their first month of shooting was just a lot of dialogue and explaining to the audience what's happening.