Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

Happy Harpy · January 8, 2019

17 hours ago, screamin said:

Old habits die really hard, in my experience. My brother and I get along much better than we used to, but he'll take a view opposite mine just to be contrarian sometimes. My observation of many people at Thanksgiving convinces me this is a common trait in families. :)

Not to mention, if you know your tastes and inclinations are generally the opposite of someone else's, you'd get a sense that if they hate something or someone, you'd probably disagree on that, too.

I agree that their different tempers will probably place them in different camps when it comes to dealing with the issues to come. But you said that Arya would welcome Dany "because Sansa doesn't". Arya doesn't have a old habit to like or dislike someone because Sansa doesn't or does. She's her own very opiniated person and she never needed her sister's opinion to base hers upon.

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Yes, if she believes it's entirely the truth AND that Jon had nothing to do with the information surfacing now. But look at the sources. The person who brings in a paper proving that Rhaegar married Lyanna just happens to be Jon's best friend who just happened to have stolen a tedious ledger with no idea whatsoever that it contained a wedding certificate proving that Rhaegar and Lyanna's child is legitimate and therefore goes first in the line of succession. And the only person who gives any testimony that child was born AND grew up to be Jon is Bran - and no matter how scary his foresight talent is, there's no way to prove if he decided to lie about this. And as Jon's brother, he has a vested interest in Jon's benefit. Neither of these people can be considered disinterested witnesses.

It would be really odd if a person so heavily invested in her identity of Queen as Dany is didn't wonder if these people are trying to fuck her over somehow. And since Jon is the prime beneficiary of this revelation, it would be weird if it didn't at least momentarily occur to her that Jon might be in on it. She hasn't known him long enough to be completely immune from the worry that he might not be the man she thought he was.

If she doesn't believe the info, Daenerys isn't "demoted", so she has no reason to be worried. She might think it's a lie as a knee-jerk reaction...probably just like Jon will react at first. I think the first words, for everyone, will be "You're lying" or "Nonsense" or something along those lines. Everybody will question the source -those who don't want to believe it, especially. Daenerys might also have a lightbulb moment remembering Jon petting Drogon, and know it's the truth.

If she believes the info, Jon is pretty much an open book so imo it will be clear that he's shell-shocked. There are also two whole scenes in 7x07 which are there to establish how Jon is unable to lie even for something Dany knows is his life mission, something she saw him risk his own interest and his life several times for (coming to Dragonstone, going beyond the Wall). Had Jon still not bent the knee, had she not seen Jon surrounded by WW on that lake, I could imagine her suspecting a long con but what does he have to earn, after he pledged himself as her vassal, in front of everyone including their enemies? Nothing but more grumbling Northern lords, who hate the Targaryens.

Shock, passing anger, maybe more at the world than at Jon himself, or maybe like she was angry at Tyrion in 7x04, the fear of being set aside because there's suddenly a man who can wear the crown, I can see all that. But coldly suspecting Jon of comploting, and harboring ill-feelings toward him deeply enough or durably enough for Arya identify her as a threat and turn against her? I'm not sure. Arya will be shaken by the news herself, so I believe that she'll be more than able to understand a momentary emotional reaction -I even suspect she'll be the most emotional. Maybe Daenerys and Arya will even unite to say "You're Jon Snow, fuck your king's blood", LOL.

Moreover, once the first emotion passed, there's the question of logic. Jon's existence wouldn't destroy Dany's claim (for twenty years, people have discussed the legimity of Rhaegar's heirs vs Viserys). Said claim officially relies on her being a Targaryen, but it's only rhethorical. How would losing the title of last dragon affect her position? In the facts, her people and her armies don't follow her because of her family name or her rank on the succession line. They follow her because of who she is, what she did and what they hope she can do. Her allies are with her because she has armies and dragons. The name "Targaryen" was actully only used against her so far, allowing Cersei or LF to pit lords against her.

Jon's parentage has been the main mystery of the show for so long, I do think there will be a fallout. I think it will lead Daenerys to question and reassess her identity as much as Jon will have to. But unless someone takes advantage of the identity crisis to manipulate the shocked heirs (like Tyrion could, maybe, he's the one Daenerys goes to for logical talks) I don't think it will generate lasting resentment.

screamin · January 8, 2019

1 hour ago, Happy Harpy said:

If she doesn't believe the info, Daenerys isn't "demoted", so she has no reason to be worried.

If she doesn't believe the info, what she will think is that her fiancé's brother and her fiance's best friend are conspiring to demote her. All she knows about Sam is that she executed his dad and brother by dragonfire. Any research into Bran will show that LF got put to death largely on the strength of his testimony - which, if you think about it, is pretty slender proof to support a death penalty - but the Starks got it done. These two people who are very close to Jon (one of whom has a serious grudge against her) are proclaiming she isn't really the queen, based on some really sketchy-sounding evidence. If she isn't worried, she should be.

1 hour ago, Happy Harpy said:

But coldly suspecting Jon of comploting, and harboring ill-feelings toward him deeply enough or durably enough for Arya identify her as a threat and turn against her? I'm not sure. Arya will be shaken by the news herself, so I believe that she'll be more than able to understand a momentary emotional reaction -I even suspect she'll be the most emotional. Maybe Daenerys and Arya will even unite to say "You're Jon Snow, fuck your king's blood", LOL.

I can't see why Arya would think Jon being legitimate (when she knows it's always been hard on him to be a bastard) AND a king would be a net negative for him. For her own sake she might be sad that her adored Jon's not really her brother, but I don't think she'd think this was anything but good fortune for Jon. Arya's emotional reaction to the news would be very different from Dany's - Arya's reaction would not include doubt or anger at Jon, even momentary. Arya would know Jon would not have wanted the Iron Throne and certainly not made up evidence to get it - she's known Jon all her life and knows he wouldn't do that.

Dany, however, has known Jon for only a very short time. And her life has been filled with overbearing men who've disposed of her life without her leave, including many who've double-crossed her. Even her first husband did fit the character of 'overbearing,' however well-intentioned he was toward her. And Westerosi society (and every other society Dany's been exposed to, really) favors men to a great degree over women. Isn't it perfectly believable to imagine that Jon is attracted to her and even loves her in his way - and at the same time thinks his life and his rule would be so much more comfortable and easy if he weren't subordinate to her - a position which in chauvinistic Westeros would make him seem emasculated? That maybe he took a few steps with his best friend and brother to convince her her rightful place was in his bed and giving him heirs, not on the throne? And, as you remark , Tyrion is just the person who'd foster those doubts.

While I could see Arya sympathizing with Dany's feeling of loss upon losing the throne, I can't imagine she'd have much sympathy for Dany's distrust of Jon and anger at him - these feelings are totally alien to Arya, and she'd likely be resentful and suspicious of Dany if she didn't rid herself of them forthwith.

Edited January 8, 2019 by screamin

Smad · January 8, 2019

2 hours ago, Wouter said:

While Dany as queen of the 7K (and as such, indeed owner of Westeros and everything on it) would be within her theoretical rights to strip the Starks of Winterfell, her alliance with the north in general and with Jon in particular would be over, as well. Dany is allied to Jon - the normal thing to do with allies is to support them and reward them for services provided. Realistically, she could only move against Sansa in so far she can get Jon to agree or at least to accept, and preferably at least a part of the northern lords would have to accept as well.

But Dany is not yet queen of the 7K. As far as I'm aware, she is queen of no kingdom in Westeros. She was allied with other kingdoms but not once was it mentioned she has conquered any or has been given any. Which is exactly why the whole thing with Jon giving up his title and handing over the North to her makes no sense. And his title of WotN is still illegal because Dany is in fact not queen of the 7K.

And frankly, Dany might want to be careful with how she treats allies, considering she didn't give a damn or make a move to help the ones who she used to have. Dorne, Reach/Highgarden and Greyjoys. All either dead or imprisoned. Hell Theon came to ask for Dany's help with Yara but we saw him leaving Dragonstone alone with only Greyjoy men. Dany clearly doesn't give a damn about her allies beyond what she can get out of them. Once they are useless, she abandons them. Why should anyone ally themselves with someone like that? But it's really only an extension of how Dany treats the people of Westeros, whom she knows even less than her 'allies' and gladly holds their lives ransom over her own need to subjugate those who stand in the way of her goals.

YaddaYadda · January 8, 2019

1 hour ago, screamin said:

If she doesn't believe the info, what she will think is that her fiancé's brother and her fiance's best friend are conspiring to demote her. All she knows about Sam is that she executed his dad and brother by dragonfire. Any research into Bran will show that LF got put to death largely on the strength of his testimony - which, if you think about it, is pretty slender proof to support a death penalty - but the Starks got it done. These two people who are very close to Jon (one of whom has a serious grudge against her) are proclaiming she isn't really the queen, based on some really sketchy-sounding evidence. If she isn't worried, she should be.

I tend to skim through the posts.Is there a spumor about Jon and Dany becoming engaged?

Yes, there's Sam and Bran who will shed light on this. But the writers could as easily give support to this by using Varys. He was in King's Landing during that time (he and Jaime both). He's the lord of whisperers, maybe they can dial him up a notch and have him reveal that he'd heard rumors of a pregnancy or that Rhaegar told his mother before he marched off to war. There are a lot of ways the writers can bring more people.

Or Bran will have extra superpower and will be able to transport people into his vision through the weirwood.

SeanC · January 8, 2019

30 minutes ago, Smad said:

But Dany is not yet queen of the 7K. As far as I'm aware, she is queen of no kingdom in Westeros. She was allied with other kingdoms but not once was it mentioned she has conquered any or has been given any. Which is exactly why the whole thing with Jon giving up his title and handing over the North to her makes no sense. And his title of WotN is still illegal because Dany is in fact not queen of the 7K.

It isn't illegal. Dany's word is law to the extent that she is recognized by others as queen and is capable of enforcing her will. The North, having acceded to her rule (in theory, anyway), is the biggest piece of territory that she holds. She is also, of course, undoubtedly ruler of Dragonstone.

The show is, let's be frank, not at all concerned about the status of things outside of Winterfell and King's Landing. After the destruction of the Lannister-Reach army in 704 she made a bunch of people swear loyalty to her, presumably including many lords, and she's subsequently concerned that going north without a ceasefire will jeopardize her situation in the south. She seems to at least notionally be in control of some southern areas.

screamin · January 8, 2019

47 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

I tend to skim through the posts.Is there a spumor about Jon and Dany becoming engaged?

No, I just grabbed a word because I didn't like the sound of "boyfriend" in this context. :) It's not accurate, as you say. Seems to me that an engagement would have been inevitable if this sudden roadblock to their relationship HADN'T shown up, though.

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Yes, there's Sam and Bran who will shed light on this. But the writers could as easily give support to this by using Varys. He was in King's Landing during that time (he and Jaime both). He's the lord of whisperers, maybe they can dial him up a notch and have him reveal that he'd heard rumors of a pregnancy or that Rhaegar told his mother before he marched off to war. There are a lot of ways the writers can bring more people.

Sure, the writers could. Varys could contribute (though he'd have no first-hand info into what happened at the tower). The writers could bring Wylla from behind the wallpaper, or Howland Reed, both of whom could back up Bran's tale. They could conjure up testimony from a maester saying the ledger is genuine, and even bring other corroborating documents from Oldtown. They could pile up evidence till Dany would have no choice but to believe it AND count Jon innocent of trying to bring out the story himself for his own advancement.

But would they? The current situation is IDEAL for fostering maximum angst just as it is. And the writers love angst. What you'd have is Dany turning to Jon and saying, "Your brother, he's...a little...well, you said yourself your brother is very changed from what he used to be. How do you know he isn't imagining he saw something that isn't true just because he WANTS to help you rise? And your friend hates my guts and would back up any story to harm me. Don't tell me you believe this crap." And Honest Jon would believe Sam, and would not be able to argue convincingly with Dany that he doesn't, or that Sansa and Arya are wrong in backing up Bran's infallibility. If Sam in his resentment spreads the story around instead of hushing it up (as Dany would undoubtedly prefer) Jon would have to insist on protecting Sam from any punishment of Dany's. Meantime Tyrion might see the opportunity to drive a wedge between Jon and Dany to prevent his OWN demotion, by giving all sorts of logical-sounding reasons why Sam and Bran are full of shit, and maybe hinting Jon is aware and going along with it. There's so much opportunity for angst and division there, do you think the writers would choose to resolve it easily with more proof?

Edited January 8, 2019 by screamin

Mannahatta · January 8, 2019

This is somewhat off-topic - but for those of you who are interested in knowing more about George R.R. Martin - he's going to be on tonight's episode of Finding Your Roots on PBS (8PM EST). I just starting watching Game of Thrones so I'm only up to Season 4, but I'm obsessed with it. While I'm obviously not ready to start speculating on Season 8, I am looking forward to finding out more about the writer of the original novels. All I know about him is from Wikipedia, and so far I just find it endlessly amusing that he was born and raised in Bayonne, NJ of all places. I mean I can understand JK Rowling having Edinburgh to inspire her. But Bayonne? The man has my undying respect.

Happy Harpy · January 9, 2019

2 hours ago, screamin said:

If she doesn't believe the info, what she will think is that her fiancé's brother and her fiance's best friend are conspiring to demote her. All she knows about Sam is that she executed his dad and brother by dragonfire. Any research into Bran will show that LF got put to death largely on the strength of his testimony - which, if you think about it, is pretty slender proof to support a death penalty - but the Starks got it done. These two people who are very close to Jon (one of whom has a serious grudge against her) are proclaiming she isn't really the queen, based on some really sketchy-sounding evidence. If she isn't worried, she should be.

I can't see why Arya would think Jon being legitimate (when she knows it's always been hard on him to be a bastard) AND a king would be a net negative for him. For her own sake she might be sad that her adored Jon's not really her brother, but I don't think she'd think this was anything but good fortune for Jon. Arya's emotional reaction to the news would be very different from Dany's - Arya's reaction would not include doubt or anger at Jon, even momentary. Arya would know Jon would not have wanted the Iron Throne and certainly not made up evidence to get it - she's known Jon all her life and knows he wouldn't do that.

Dany, however, has known Jon for only a very short time. And her life has been filled with overbearing men who've disposed of her life without her leave, including many who've double-crossed her. Even her first husband did fit the character of 'overbearing,' however well-intentioned he was toward her. And Westerosi society (and every other society Dany's been exposed to, really) favors men to a great degree over women. Isn't it perfectly believable to imagine that Jon is attracted to her and even loves her in his way - and at the same time thinks his life and his rule would be so much more comfortable and easy if he weren't subordinate to her - a position which in chauvinistic Westeros would make him seem emasculated? That maybe he took a few steps with his best friend and brother to convince her her rightful place was in his bed and giving him heirs, not on the throne? And, as you remark , Tyrion is just the person who'd foster those doubts.

While I could see Arya sympathizing with Dany's feeling of loss upon losing the throne, I can't imagine she'd have much sympathy for Dany's distrust of Jon and anger at him - these feelings are totally alien to Arya, and she'd likely be resentful and suspicious of Dany if she didn't rid herself of them forthwith.

Arya never gave a shit about power or thrones or status so I doubt she'll regard it as good fortune for Jon to be a heir to the throne. She'll know only too well by then how king's blood makes one more of a target (Gendry didn't hide his parentage so it should be notorious by S8 in the Stargaryen ranks). The only positive she should find is that Jon now finally knows who his mother is but imo, beyond that Arya will only be heartbroken that she's losing a brother. Her favorite brother, after she lost two and Bran is, well...whatever Bran is now.

I don't think that Dany will distrust Jon and I'm not even certain that her anger (if she's even angry) will be directed at Jon. Dany might have known Jon for a very short time, but what they went through together (including the loss of one of her children, trying to save him) makes it hard to believe she'd flip on him, or he'd flip on her. Nothing whatsoever in Jon's behavior hints that he's power-hungry or a male chauvinist. He bent the knee to Dany whereas she already agreed to help him, so he had nothing to gain, he didn't even try to bargain an alliance through marriage, unlike ~~Herpes~~ Euron with Cersei; and now I wonder if this weird absence of marriage talk between them in S7 wasn't yet another way of establishing Jon as a disinterested man in Dany's eyes. Jon insisted that women in the North learn to fight, which Dany will witness once in WF (in S7, they were training in the courtyard, so...). I think that Dany might think of Jon what Arya thought of Gendry in the books: "Only he was different" from the other men she met before.

As I said, Jon being Rhaegar's heir doesn't mean that Dany will lose the throne, and it will certainly not make her lose what makes her the biggest contender (her amies and her dragon). I think that if Dany has issues with Jon being a Targaryen it will be much more personal and intimate. Maybe Jon has qualms about being his aunt? Even if this kind of union happened in the Stark family tree, it might be a shock for him and it might hurt and scare Daenerys more than anything else. All the interviews said that Daenerys is truly in love with Jon, and vice versa.

If Dany and Arya both think the reveal makes them lose Jon, then they will feel the same and both wish he'd stay "Jon Snow".

screamin · January 9, 2019

8 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

Arya never gave a shit about power or thrones or status so I doubt she'll regard it as good fortune for Jon to be a heir to the throne. She'll know only too well by then how king's blood makes one more of a target (Gendry didn't hide his parentage so it should be notorious by S8 in the Stargaryen ranks).

Did Gendry even know his parentage, though? At least while Arya was with him? IIRC, in the books there was even a moment when he accidentally risked sleeping with one of his own bastard half-sibs.

Edited January 9, 2019 by screamin

SimoneS · January 9, 2019

1 hour ago, Smad said:

But Dany is not yet queen of the 7K. As far as I'm aware, she is queen of no kingdom in Westeros. She was allied with other kingdoms but not once was it mentioned she has conquered any or has been given any. Which is exactly why the whole thing with Jon giving up his title and handing over the North to her makes no sense. And his title of WotN is still illegal because Dany is in fact not queen of the 7K.

And frankly, Dany might want to be careful with how she treats allies, considering she didn't give a damn or make a move to help the ones who she used to have. Dorne, Reach/Highgarden and Greyjoys. All either dead or imprisoned. Hell Theon came to ask for Dany's help with Yara but we saw him leaving Dragonstone alone with only Greyjoy men. Dany clearly doesn't give a damn about her allies beyond what she can get out of them. Once they are useless, she abandons them. Why should anyone ally themselves with someone like that? But it's really only an extension of how Dany treats the people of Westeros, whom she knows even less than her 'allies' and gladly holds their lives ransom over her own need to subjugate those who stand in the way of her goals.

There is no such thing as "legal" or "illegal" when it comes to conquerors just what is real and can be reinforced by power. Dany has declared herself Queen of the Seven Kingdoms. She has the armies and dragons to enforce her claim. Jon recognized her claim because the North needs her to survive and the recognized that she is worthy to be Queen. By giving Jon the title of Warden of the North, she is rewarding his pledge and loyalty. The North should be grateful. Dany is actually a more compassionate conqueror than William of Normandy who invaded England in 1066 and declared himself king. William butchered all who opposed him including the other claimants and most of the English aristocracy. He confiscated the lands of all the English aristocracy who refused to "bend the knee," giving them to his Norman nobles and knights.

As for your comment about how Dany treats her allies, just about none of that is true or based on what we saw on the screen. Her allies are dead because Dany made the mistake of following her heart and listening to Tyrion, but she avenged them by attacking and destroying the Lannisters' army and their bannermen. She should have attacked the Red Keep which was her original plan before taking Tyrion's and then Jon's bad advice. If she had done that, she would now have the Tyrell, Martell, and Lannister armies along with Yara's Ironborn to help fight the NK. As for Yara, Dany no longer has a fleet with ships to spare so there is nothing she can do to save her other than win the war.

Edited January 9, 2019 by SimoneS

Happy Harpy · January 9, 2019

1 minute ago, screamin said:

Did Gendry even know his parentage, though? At least while Arya was with him?

He didn't back then. But he did in S7 and he didn't hide it. So Arya should learn about it/know it in S8, before the Jon reveal drops, and it won't be too hard for her to do the math (why the Gold cloaks wanted Gendry, why Melisandre wanted him).

Maybe Gendry will even tell her everything himself but I need to keep my inner fan~~girl~~woman in check and not indulge in wishful thinking of great potential scenes between my babies, which I'm not sure at all I will get...That damn Noh Time, sigh.

Smad · January 9, 2019

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

It isn't illegal. Dany's word is law to the extent that she is recognized by others as queen and is capable of enforcing her will. The North, having acceded to her rule (in theory, anyway), is the biggest piece of territory that she holds. She is also, of course, undoubtedly ruler of Dragonstone.

Is Dany sitting on the IT? Nope. Is Dany the supreme ruler of all the Kingdoms? Nope. Just because some former slaves from a different continent call her queen, and her exiled and criminal Westerosi advisors do so as well, means squat to me. And if this verse operated on any kind of logic, it would mean squat to the people in the 7 Kingdoms as well. And the North has in fact not acceded her rule...that would imply they had any input. They didn't. Do they even know yet their freedom was pissed away because their so called King had a cramp in his pants? Because it wasn't addressed at all in S7, we only know Sansa was aware of it.

And Dragonstone is it's own Kingdom? Huh, never knew that. Need to have another look at a Westeros map then.

40 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

There is no such thing as "legal" or "illegal" when it comes to conquerors just what is real and can be reinforced by power. Dany has declared herself Queen of the Seven Kingdoms.

There IS already a woman who has declared herself queen. I'm pretty sure her name is Cersei. I don't give a damn about Dany's entitlement. I care about facts. And the fact is that Dany is not Queen of the Kingdoms of Westeros. And Cersei is sitting on the IT as Queen of Westeros. Those are the facts as they stood in S7. So yes it is illegal or better said not legally binding in any way for Dany to strip someone of their titles. Much less hand out any. She can do that in Slaver's Bay, not Westeros. When she is actually the supreme ruler, then she has the power for such things.

47 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

As for your comment about how Dany treats her allies, just about none of that is true or based on what we saw on the screen. Her allies are dead because Dany made the mistake of following her heart and listening to Tyrion, but she avenged them by attacking and destroying the Lannisters' army and their bannermen.

Her attacking the Lannister forces to revenge her oh so awesome allies that she misses so much. Is that how we are spinning this now? Instead of Dany needing a win badly after having lost all advantages, being pissed and wanting to make a point. After all, that's how I took it when she said that her allies were taken from her while she was sitting on her ass doing nothing. It wasn't a terrible personal for her, only a loss for her plans to conquer.

49 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

As for Yara, Dany no longer has a fleet with ships to spare so there is nothing she can do to save her other than win the war.

Ships or no ships, doesn't matter. I'm pretty sure Theon would have been happy if she could spare some men to help him. He didn't even get that. Wonderful ally that Dany.

51 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

Jon recognized her claim because the North needs her to survive and the recognized that she is worthy to be Queen.

How? When? No seriously, what has he seen her do that makes her worthy in his eyes? He was lured to Dragonstone under false pretenses, robbed of his weapons and ship and put under house arrest. He was disrespected because of her refusal to use the appropriate titles. She asked he not hold her father's crimes against her while at the same time asking him to uphold old oaths. He was allowed to mine the glass because for Dany it has no value but he was still forced to stay on Dragonstone. She asked him for advice once or twice. He hasn't seen her actually do anything until she came to save the idiot squad. And anyone who thinks she would have even bothered to fly North if Jon wasn't in that party, they really don't know Dany. She wouldn't have flown up there if the guy she wanted to bone (who also happened to be KitN) wasn't part of that squat.

Eyes High · January 9, 2019

2 hours ago, Mannahatta said:

This is somewhat off-topic - but for those of you who are interested in knowing more about George R.R. Martin - he's going to be on tonight's episode of Finding Your Roots on PBS (8PM EST). I just starting watching Game of Thrones so I'm only up to Season 4, but I'm obsessed with it. While I'm obviously not ready to start speculating on Season 8, I am looking forward to finding out more about the writer of the original novels. All I know about him is from Wikipedia, and so far I just find it endlessly amusing that he was born and raised in Bayonne, NJ of all places. I mean I can understand JK Rowling having Edinburgh to inspire her. But Bayonne? The man has my undying respect.

That show was some wild shit. GRRM discovered through DNA testing that the man he thought was his paternal grandfather, his grandmother's Italian husband, was not his grandfather but that rather his biological grandfather was a man of Ashkenazi Jewish heritage. This means, of course, that GRRM's father was a secret bastard! Or, I guess if you put it in ASOIAF terms, he's Tommen's son. GRRM's family narrative was that his grandmother's Italian husband was a scoundrel who left his wife to start another family with a younger woman, but in fact it seems more likely that his grandmother's husband left her when she got knocked up by this Jewish gentleman. And if you look at photos of GRRM's paternal aunt (fathered by the Italian guy) and GRRM's father (fathered by the Jewish guy), they look very different: GRRM's aunt is dark-haired and dark-skinned, while GRRM's dad is very fair. The seed is strong, indeed.

On another note, HBO's head of programming has said that he has seen rough, CGI-free cuts of the six episodes and has compared them to movies. Hopefully, that means that the episodes will be very long. I think Iain Glen said something similar about the episodes being movie-length. (Before you get too excited, though, "movie length" is about 80 minutes and over, which is about the length of GOT's longest episode to date, 7x07.)

Edited January 9, 2019 by Eyes High

SeanC · January 9, 2019

29 minutes ago, Smad said:

Is Dany sitting on the IT? Nope. Is Dany the supreme ruler of all the Kingdoms? Nope. Just because some former slaves from a different continent call her queen, and her exiled and criminal Westerosi advisors do so as well, means squat to me. And if this verse operated on any kind of logic, it would mean squat to the people in the 7 Kingdoms as well. And the North has in fact not acceded her rule...that would imply they had any input. They didn't. Do they even know yet their freedom was pissed away because their so called King had a cramp in his pants? Because it wasn't addressed at all in S7, we only know Sansa was aware of it.

And Dragonstone is it's own Kingdom? Huh, never knew that. Need to have another look at a Westeros map then.

There IS already a woman who has declared herself queen. I'm pretty sure her name is Cersei. I don't give a damn about Dany's entitlement. I care about facts. And the fact is that Dany is not Queen of the Kingdoms of Westeros. And Cersei is sitting on the IT as Queen of Westeros. Those are the facts as they stood in S7. So yes it is illegal or better said not legally binding in any way for Dany to strip someone of their titles. Much less hand out any. She can do that in Slaver's Bay, not Westeros. When she is actually the supreme ruler, then she has the power for such things.

Cersei isn't the supreme ruler of the Seven Kingdoms just because she sits on the Iron Throne. As Jaime noted in 701, she ruled, at best, a couple of the kingdoms. Dany rules Dragonstone; the North is at least theoretically hers, following Jon's kneeling; she appears to have the allegiance of various people in the south, since she's worried about losing them if she turns northward without a ceasefire.

Colorful Mess · January 9, 2019

I've been thinking about a character who knelt to an unpopular monarch but his own people didn't take his lead. Kind of like a Torrhen figure who knelt but his people still rebelled anyway. Even though show Dorne was a mess, there does seem to be some truth to the idea that Doran will be betrayed for kneeling to the wrong people. In the books he makes the Sand Snakes swear on Oberyn's grave that he will serve him in his plots, and Obara in particular leaves out the part about swearing on his grave. I think she's the one who spearheads the plot to overthrow him. Dorne is important to watch because they have a lot of similarities with the North. I think Northern Independence is going to become an underground conspiracy and Jon kneeling to Dany won't mean jack.

YaddaYadda · January 9, 2019

2 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

I've been thinking about a character who knelt to an unpopular monarch but his own people didn't take his lead. Kind of like a Torrhen figure who knelt but his people still rebelled anyway.

No they didn't rebel against him because he knelt.

Colorful Mess · January 9, 2019

5 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

No they didn't rebel against him because he knelt.

My post wasn't about Torrhen. It was speculation about how I think Jon/Dany is NOT a repeat of Torrhen/Aegon.

But there were Northerners who refused to kneel when Torrhen did. They just exiled themselves to Essos rather than live under Targaryen rule.

GrailKing · January 9, 2019

On 1/8/2019 at 7:19 PM, SimoneS said:

She should have attacked the Red Keep which was her original plan before taking Tyrion's and then Jon's bad advice.

I don't think this is totally true.

Assuming Tyrion isn't already betraying Danny, Tyrion KNOWS about the Wildfire, he doesn't care about Cersei like he does Jaime, but he does have to take into account the cache of wildfire.

WRG to Jon, Jon basically said don't burn KL, do something else , she did, she wiped out many of Cersie's army, Dorne and Tyrells were mostly wiped out BEFORE Jon got to Dragonstone and Randyl Tarly also switched alliances before Jon got there ( I think before Jon even left Winterfell ).

Edited January 10, 2019 by GrailKing
meant Tarley not Tyrell

SimoneS · January 9, 2019

2 hours ago, Smad said:

There IS already a woman who has declared herself queen. I'm pretty sure her name is Cersei. I don't give a damn about Dany's entitlement. I care about facts. And the fact is that Dany is not Queen of the Kingdoms of Westeros. And Cersei is sitting on the IT as Queen of Westeros. Those are the facts as they stood in S7. So yes it is illegal or better said not legally binding in any way for Dany to strip someone of their titles. Much less hand out any. She can do that in Slaver's Bay, not Westeros. When she is actually the supreme ruler, then she has the power for such things.

Harold Godwinson was declared the King of England, holding the throne for 10 months before William and his knights killed him at the Battle of Hastings and dismembered this body. In the end, it is who has the power and the armies. Like Harold, Cersei is Dead Person Walking. Jon was smart enough to pick the winning side. As for the rest of your response, your beef is with the writers' who have clearly stated the characters' motivations for their actions.

55 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

I don't think this is totally true.

Assuming Tyrion isn't already betraying Danny, Tyrion KNOWS about the Wildfire, he doesn't care about Cersei like he does Jaime, but he does have to take into account the cache of wildfire.

WRG to Jon, Jon basically said don't burn KL, do something else , she did, she wiped out many of Cersie's army, Dorne and Tyrells were mostly wiped out BEFORE Jon got to Dragonstone and Randyl Tyrell also switched alliances before Jon got there ( I think before Jon even left Winterfell ).

I think that if Tyrion had told Dany about the wildfire, she would have figured out how to successfully take out the Red Keep. After all, fire is Dany's expertise as she is a human dragon. She would have been able to take out the Red Keep before the Lannisters took out the Tyrells at minimum. As for Dorne and the Ironborn, you might be right that she couldn't save them. After all, Yara is such a bad commander that she allowed Euron's fleet to sneak up on her.

Edited January 9, 2019 by SimoneS

screamin · January 9, 2019

3 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

He didn't back then. But he did in S7 and he didn't hide it. So Arya should learn about it/know it in S8, before the Jon reveal drops, and it won't be too hard for her to do the math (why the Gold cloaks wanted Gendry, why Melisandre wanted him).

Maybe Gendry will even tell her everything himself but I need to keep my inner fan~~girl~~woman in check and not indulge in wishful thinking of great potential scenes between my babies, which I'm not sure at all I will get...That damn Noh Time, sigh.

I'm sure Arya will find out all about Gendry soon. But having king's blood when you're an unknown, unacknowledged bastard has nothing to do with having a king's status and power. Gendry was powerless and a member of the smallfolk regardless of his blood. And Arya's experience watching hundreds of nameless smallfolk crushed like bugs by every powerful high-born faction through war-torn Westeros would have unavoidably taught her that people with power and status have a definite advantage in her world. The fact that she leaped to the defense of Jon's power and status (literally with dagger drawn) when she thought Sansa might eventually pose a threat to it shows that while she might not covet it for herself, she is very sensitive about Jon's power and status being all it should be. While she would (as I already acknowledged) be sad for herself about Jon not being her brother, I can't imagine she would consider the news that Jon got MORE power and status be bad news for HIM.

Besides, looking back, I don't recall Arya particularly despising power and status in itself - just the way she as a girl was expected to attain them. Recall when she asked Ned about whether Bran could still be a knight after his injury, and Ned told her no, but explained there were still many fine careers open to him, like High Septon, king's advisor or powerfui lord. Her response:

Quote

Arya cocked her head to one side. "Can I be a king's councillor and build castles and become the High Septon?"

...was not a question from a girl who doesn't give a shit about power and status.

Edited January 9, 2019 by screamin

GrailKing · January 9, 2019

18 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

As for Dorne and the Ironborn, you might be right that she couldn't save them. After all, Yara is such a bad commander that she allowed Euron's fleet to sneak up on her.

This is where I go how did Euron know exactly where Yara and fleet be , and he's already armed for battle and in fog no less?

I don't see Varys helping Euron, or wanting Yara or the Tyrells removed, they like him hate the Lannisters.

Ground observers can only see to the horizon, after that those ships are unseen.

If I'm a suspicious person I say Tyrion is getting info and now the people who killed his niece and nephew are eliminated.

SimoneS · January 9, 2019

14 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

This is where I go how did Euron know exactly where Yara and fleet be , and he's already armed for battle and in fog no less?

I don't see Varys helping Euron, or wanting Yara or the Tyrells removed, they like him hate the Lannisters.

Ground observers can only see to the horizon, after that those ships are unseen.

If I'm a suspicious person I say Tyrion is getting info and now the people who killed his niece and nephew are eliminated.

Ugh, I don't want to believe Tyrion would do something like this. Qyburn did co-opt Varys' Little Birds so maybe they gave the info on the location of Yara's fleet, but even if someone betrayed Dany, how does an experienced commander like Yara let a whole fleet sneak up on her? Did she not have any look outs? Did they all fall asleep at once? Unbelievable! It can only be "plot device" at work here.

Edited January 9, 2019 by SimoneS

GrailKing · January 9, 2019

1 minute ago, SimoneS said:

Ugh, I don't want to believe Tyrion would do something like this. Qyburg did co-opt Varys' Little Birds so maybe they gave the info on the location on the location of Yara's fleet, but even if someone betrayed Dany, how does an experienced commander like Yara let a whole fleet sneak up on her? Did she not have any look outs? Did they all fall asleep at once? Unbelievable! It can only be "plot device" at work here.

It was deep fog, so, that may be a possibility also in book we Know Euron has advantages, here; it may only been hinted at when he killed his brother.

anamika · January 9, 2019

4 hours ago, Eyes High said:

On another note, HBO's head of programming has said that he has seen rough, CGI-free cuts of the six episodes and has compared them to movies. Hopefully, that means that the episodes will be very long. I think Iain Glen said something similar about the episodes being movie-length. (Before you get too excited, though, "movie length" is about 80 minutes and over, which is about the length of GOT's longest episode to date, 7x07.)

I wonder when he saw this considering it was CGI free...

Quote

It’s a spectacle. [David Benioff and D.B. Weiss] have done six movies. The reaction I had while watching them was, ‘I’m watching a movie,’…They knew the bar was high. They’ve exceeded the bar. I’ve watched them twice without any CGI and I’m in awe. Everybody’s in for an extraordinary treat of storytelling and of magical, magical production.”

Maybe that's why we are not getting any trailers. Lots more post processing still left.

10 hours ago, Wouter said:

While Dany as queen of the 7K (and as such, indeed owner of Westeros and everything on it) would be within her theoretical rights to strip the Starks of Winterfell, her alliance with the north in general and with Jon in particular would be over, as well. Dany is allied to Jon - the normal thing to do with allies is to support them and reward them for services provided. Realistically, she could only move against Sansa in so far she can get Jon to agree or at least to accept, and preferably at least a part of the northern lords would have to accept as well.

Well, yes. Dany would only strip the Starks of WF if they were disloyal to her. In which case if Jon and the Starks are willing to betray her, then she has no reason to want to have an alliance with house Stark.

And I would not count on the support of the North for the Starks on the show. As Sansa said, they are weather Vanes. Recall that they supported house Bolton and the Lannisters over house Stark. And the Boltons were only popular for flaying. Dany has dragons! If Dany offered to make Lord Glover warden of the North and gave him WF, he would jump at the chance.

The Starks hold on power is as tenuous as it is for any house in Westeros.

Anyways, I doubt anything is going to come of the Sansa/Dany clash. While Sansa considered deposing Jon and executing Arya - she stopped short of doing it. I think the same will happen here - where she will whinge about Dany for two episodes and then the arrival of the AOTD will show the slow learner why they need Dany's help.

It will be interesting to see what Sophie Turner will have to say about this in the interviews leading up to season 8, now that we have this teaser and EW has already talked about how Sansa is not happy about this bending the knee business. And apparently Sophie Turner liked this tweet:

Sophie talked about Jon being an unfit leader before season 7. So we may get to know a little about the Sansa - Dany feud if Sophie does any promotional interviews for the final season.

Edited January 9, 2019 by anamika

Tallulah7606 · January 9, 2019

I read the other day that season 8 “May feature the longest battle in cinematic history”

I don’t know about anyone else, but I may need therapy after if that’s true 😂 ‘The Battle of The Bastards’ nearly sent me loopy with stress, I don’t think I breathed once!

My hopes for season 8 are that Cersei doesn’t due (I’m probably alone in this, but I love her!!) and that Tyrion will turn out to be a Targaryen (his mother died in childbirth and the dragons love him) so maybe he’s Daenerys big brother, or uncle, and in turn the rightful heir to iron throne.

WearyTraveler · January 9, 2019

14 hours ago, Mannahatta said:

This is somewhat off-topic - but for those of you who are interested in knowing more about George R.R. Martin - he's going to be on tonight's episode of Finding Your Roots on PBS (8PM EST). I just starting watching Game of Thrones so I'm only up to Season 4, but I'm obsessed with it. While I'm obviously not ready to start speculating on Season 8, I am looking forward to finding out more about the writer of the original novels. All I know about him is from Wikipedia, and so far I just find it endlessly amusing that he was born and raised in Bayonne, NJ of all places. I mean I can understand JK Rowling having Edinburgh to inspire her. But Bayonne? The man has my undying respect.

Oh, you sweet summer child!

Happy Harpy · January 9, 2019

17 hours ago, screamin said:

I'm sure Arya will find out all about Gendry soon. But having king's blood when you're an unknown, unacknowledged bastard has nothing to do with having a king's status and power. Gendry was powerless and a member of the smallfolk regardless of his blood.

You're mixing two separate points that I made. Arya has imo two different reasons to not see Jon's parentage as good fortune 1) Arya doesn't give a shit about power and thrones and status and 2) king's blood makes someone more of a target. The mention of Gendry pertained to the latter, not the former. Kings seen on the show: Aerys : murdered. Robert: murdered. Joffrey: murdered. Self-proclaimed kings, people with a blood claim: Renly: murdered. Roberts' bastards: murdered. Daenerys & Viserys: escaped murder attempts. Gendry: escaped murder attempt. I don't count Tommen and his suicide or Stannis's execution because it isn't a direct consequence of having king's blood, but fact stays that no king or self-proclaimed king of the 7K died in their bed (= of natural causes) for over 25 years.

Quote

Besides, looking back, I don't recall Arya particularly despising power and status in itself - just the way she as a girl was expected to attain them. Recall when she asked Ned about whether Bran could still be a knight after his injury, and Ned told her no, but explained there were still many fine careers open to him, like High Septon, king's advisor or powerfui lord. Her response:

...was not a question from a girl who doesn't give a shit about power and status.

Again, I didn't say "despise". I said "didn't give a shit". I also interpret that book quote (which was dropped from the show, which is the media that counts here) completely differently but this isn't the thread for it. On the other hand, it was established if not hammered for seven seasons that Arya's priorities are her pack (friends and family alike) and her own sense of right and wrong, which she places faaar above (political) power (no interest in being lady of WF), diplomacy ("not if they lose their heads first"), thrones and status (friends with commoners and bastards, rejects turds in silk clothes).

That's why, even though of course, imo she trusts Jon and supports him as a king, and certainly thinks he's the best the smallfolk can hope, upon learning Jon's parentage I think that Arya's priority will be an emotional response (fear or losing someone from her pack). And because she's protective of whom she loves, imo she'll tend to worry more about his safety than congratulate him about the perks of a king's status.

Edited January 9, 2019 by Happy Harpy

screamin · January 9, 2019

28 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

You're mixing two separate points that I made. Arya has imo two different reasons to not see Jon's parentage as good fortune 1) Arya doesn't give a shit about power and thrones and status and 2) king's blood makes someone more of a target. The mention of Gendry pertained to the latter, not the former. Kings seen on the show: Aerys : murdered. Robert: murdered. Joffrey: murdered. Self-proclaimed kings, people with a blood claim: Renly: murdered. Roberts' bastards: murdered. Daenerys & Viserys: escaped murder attempts. Gendry: escaped murder attempt. I don't count Tommen and his suicide or Stannis's execution because it isn't a direct consequence of having king's blood, but fact stays that no king or self-proclaimed king of the 7K died in their bed (= of natural causes) for over 25 years.

No denying it. However, Arya has better reason than most aristocrats to know that the smallfolk - especially during wartime - aren't likely to have a better life expectancy on the whole, AND are likely to suffer a whole lot more over the course of that lifetime.

As for worrying for his safety - if Sam decides to proclaim his news about Jon's birthright instead of hushing it up, Dany's going to feel a lot more insecure - the North would likely prefer she step back in favor of Jon. Since Jon won't want to retaliate against Sam in any significant way for spreading the news, he won't be able to fully alleviate that insecurity. And Arya, who if she's been paying attention at ALL to the cause of all those early kings' deaths - would know that an insecure monarch, fearful for their throne, is a dangerous monarch. IMO, she'll be keeping a suspicious eye on Dany.

WindyNights · January 10, 2019

On 1/8/2019 at 5:02 AM, bubble sparkly said:

Yeah I agree, they seem to be trying to hype this up exactly like the Jon/Sansa conflict from last season, and we all know what a non-event that was. Two episodes of bitching and then they didn't see each other for the rest of the season lol. If this Sansa/Dany stuff was anything other than unimportant fluff they wouldn't be pimping it so hard in interviews and promos.

That wasn't a non-event. Read the scripts. It's the driver behind Arya and Sansa's conflict. Sansa v Jon is just manifesting as Sansa v Dany now but the root is Sansa's conflict with Jon

Wendy · January 10, 2019

On 1/7/2019 at 3:49 PM, GraceK said:

It annoys me. It annoys me that they have to feed into this toxic fanbase and pit the two most popular female characters against each other. You should see the toxic vitriolic bullshit going around on the tumblers and Twitters and articles right now. “ Sansa showed that bitch whose boss! “ “ Danys gonna wipe that smirk off her face “ blah blah blah blah . A lot of it stems from this “ Whose gonna get Jon?” “ whose gonna be Queen?” It’s sickening that that’s the narrative for these characters, that it revolves around a man. Last season had all the men putting all their problems aside, including past murder attempts, to fight for a common goal, and here we get cat fights. 🤮🙄.

Daenarys managed to be civil to Jaime Lannister and meet with him, right after he tried to murder her, and knowing he killed her father. Everyone in the Dragonpit managed to be civil and all come together for a meeting and try to form a truce even though they all had legitimate reasons to to kill each other. But in Winterfell we have this nonsense. So far anyway.

What has Dany done to the Starks specifically that Sansa should mistrust her or be resentful? Her father might have been a psycho but Dany has done absolutely nothing to the Stark family to deserve hate. The north is isolated and alone. They only have the Vale. Cersei is against them and the NK is coming, they need allies and Dany is coming with armies and dragons . It’s Jon who gave away the North and bent the knee even after Dany promised to help, Sansa should be pissed at him, not at the woman who is coming to help them with fight an apocalyptic threat.

Sansa and Dany should be allies, they are both survivors. It would be nice if the women on team Good guy could band together and show some common sense.

7

Sansa, or any of the northerners for that matter, do not know Dany, they just know what she has done. They do know that Dany burned the Tarlys to a crisp, this goes for all Westeros as low as the Red Wedding and violating guest rights. It simply was not done in Westeros and the fact that Dany did it against Tyrion advice tells them more about Dany than anything she might say. Burning their food supplies when winter is coming was probably another of her major offenses. Having heard these basically makes them fear that she will be just like her father,

As far as what the Starks might be resentful IMO neither Sansa nor Aria know about Jon's parentage yet and the only stories they have heard are about how Rhaegal kidnapped and raped Lyanna, how the Mad King burned Brandon and his father. Dany is a Targaryen, she has said that she will conquer the seven kingdoms with blood and fire. Jon knows the North will not be kind to Daenerys, he warned her about this. IMO Dany would be more offended if Sansa will be all sweet and smiley when it is obvious that the North wants to be independent and Jon bending the knee goes against their wishes.

The North knows and understands that they need her armies and her dragons desperately and they are willing to sacrifice their independence and bend the knee, but they don't have to like it. I wouldn't like it if I was in their place.

Eventually, they will all have to come together and when they all witness the real treat that the WW represent, all these angry feelings will go away but this is just the beginning, they are meeting for the first time and I fully understand the mistrust on both sides. Sweet reactions and kisses on the cheeks would be fake, unrealistic, and offensive to my intelligence.

Smad · January 10, 2019

17 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

That wasn't a non-event. Read the scripts. It's the driver behind Arya and Sansa's conflict. Sansa v Jon is just manifesting as Sansa v Dany now but the root is Sansa's conflict with Jon

Why does anyone need to read scripts? Is there something in there that wasn't on screen? If that was supposed to be the driving motivation behind the S/A conflict, then they did a terrible job with it on screen. Because that's not what I and other people got from their scenes. What they intended in the scripts doesn't matter if they are incapable of putting it on the screen.

ursula · January 10, 2019

3 hours ago, Wendy said:

They do know that Dany burned the Tarlys to a crisp, this goes for all Westeros as low as the Red Wedding and violating guest rights.

Um.... Wut?

🤣🤣🤣🤣

Edited January 10, 2019 by ursula

Wendy · January 10, 2019

On 1/8/2019 at 12:58 PM, GrailKing said:

I'm incline to think of them showing two strong woman in their own ways , eventually bonding and forming a friendship like Ned and Robert, or Ned and Howland Reed.

I would love that, but just because of that it won't happen.

I do not see Sansa and Dany as rivals for Jon's affections. I see them seizing each other and when they get to know each other better all will be better. It would be so sad that such an amazing story gets overshadowed but two women fighting over a man. Such a sad cliche.

Jon warned Dany but also told her that when they get to know her better they will love her. This is not going to happen when they just meet. There will be doubt, fear, resentment but I hope it won't be for long

Wendy · January 10, 2019

41 minutes ago, ursula said:

Um.... Wut?

🤣🤣🤣🤣

https://thedigitalcitadel.wordpress.com/why-the-red-wedding-was-so-bad-guest-rights-and-game-of-thrones/

"The reactions to the Red Wedding throughout the various kingdoms make it clear that it was an act worse than murder. Martin has stated “No matter how much I make up, there’s stuff in history that’s just as bad, or worse.” Many readers and viewers think Martin is just creating situations just for the novelty and impact but such things have happened in history." - George RR Martin

Robb, Catelyn, and their retinue were slaughtered at the Red Wedding, they were guest of the Freys and were ambushed and killed.

Guest rights were very important in Westeros, especially in the North. They Freys violated those rights.

Edited January 10, 2019 by Wendy

WindyNights · January 10, 2019

2 hours ago, Smad said:

Why does anyone need to read scripts? Is there something in there that wasn't on screen? If that was supposed to be the driving motivation behind the S/A conflict, then they did a terrible job with it on screen. Because that's not what I and other people got from their scenes. What they intended in the scripts doesn't matter if they are incapable of putting it on the screen.

It matters because it means they're trying to build to something even if the execution is bad.

Smad · January 10, 2019

1 minute ago, WindyNights said:

It matters because it means they're trying to build to something even if the execution is bad.

But it doesn't matter if it's not on the screen. 100% of the people who watch the episodes see what's on screen as canon. What % of that actually bothers to read every script if they are released, watch/read all interviews? A very tiny %, that's for sure. I'm one of those people who doesn't do that because the only thing that matters for discussion is what is ACTUALLY on screen. Intend matters little, whether that's writing or directing or acting. All that matters is what's on screen because only that is 100% canon. And it's the only thing that's canon for everyone.

Happy Harpy · January 10, 2019

9 hours ago, screamin said:

No denying it. However, Arya has better reason than most aristocrats to know that the smallfolk - especially during wartime - aren't likely to have a better life expectancy on the whole, AND are likely to suffer a whole lot more over the course of that lifetime.

As for worrying for his safety - if Sam decides to proclaim his news about Jon's birthright instead of hushing it up, Dany's going to feel a lot more insecure - the North would likely prefer she step back in favor of Jon. Since Jon won't want to retaliate against Sam in any significant way for spreading the news, he won't be able to fully alleviate that insecurity. And Arya, who if she's been paying attention at ALL to the cause of all those early kings' deaths - would know that an insecure monarch, fearful for their throne, is a dangerous monarch. IMO, she'll be keeping a suspicious eye on Dany.

If their king having bent the knee and being Daenerys' warden wasn't enough, she has dragons and more soldiers than the Northern lords, so no one will care about what they prefer. I already explained how Daenerys has nothing to effectively lose from Jon's reveal in terms of political and military power, + she truly loves him and Arya will see it, so this discussion is going to run into circles now. Agree to disagree, answer in three months about how Arya will see Jon's queen and lover.

3 hours ago, Wendy said:

Sansa, or any of the northerners for that matter, do not know Dany, they just know what she has done. They do know that Dany burned the Tarlys to a crisp, this goes for all Westeros as low as the Red Wedding and violating guest rights. It simply was not done in Westeros

Executing (non civilian) enemies during a war, after a battle, is absolutely not the same as violating guest rights. As for not being done in Westeros, just one example: two episodes before, the Lannister army was showed slaughtering all the Tyrell soldiers at Highgarden.

I don't think that everybody knows about the Tarlys, in the North at least, because Sam is in Winterfell so if people know there, so should he and they'd have revealed it onscreen. Unless it doesn't matter and after Jon Bradley's interview at the con, I don't think the Tarlys' death will matter much. I thought at first that it would, but maybe it's going to be like Jaime/Tyrion "Next time I see him, I'll cut him in two"...or not, and get over it after two minutes of discussion.

I just hope this nonsense about the Mad King's daughter from the Northern wind vanes and the Vale dotard won't last for too long. Two episode top, I know, but those are going to be long episodes, LOL. If I didn't look forward to meetings, bonding scenes and interaction between all the characters reunited in Winterfell at the beginning of the season (I hold out for some screentime given to Jorah and Lyanna Mormont) the AOTD couldn't get there soon enough for me.

Edited January 10, 2019 by Happy Harpy

YaddaYadda · January 10, 2019

8 hours ago, Wendy said:

https://thedigitalcitadel.wordpress.com/why-the-red-wedding-was-so-bad-guest-rights-and-game-of-thrones/

"The reactions to the Red Wedding throughout the various kingdoms make it clear that it was an act worse than murder. Martin has stated “No matter how much I make up, there’s stuff in history that’s just as bad, or worse.” Many readers and viewers think Martin is just creating situations just for the novelty and impact but such things have happened in history." - George RR Martin

Robb, Catelyn, and their retinue were slaughtered at the Red Wedding, they were guest of the Freys and were ambushed and killed.

Guest rights were very important in Westeros, especially in the North. They Freys violated those rights.

This is so not the same thing you are talking about. The Red Wedding has absolutely nothing to do with Dany's actions on the battlefield.

merrick715 · January 10, 2019

6 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

I just hope this nonsense about the Mad King's daughter from the Northern wind vanes and the Vale dotard won't last for too long. Two episode top, I know, but those are going to be long episodes, LOL. If I didn't look forward to meetings, bonding scenes and interaction between all the characters reunited in Winterfell at the beginning of the season (I hold out for some screentime given to Jorah and Lyanna Mormont) the AOTD couldn't get there soon enough for me.

Speaking of overlooked reunions, how do you think Lyanna Mormont is going to react to seeing Jorah? The only reason Lyanna is the head of House Mormont is because she is the surviving daughter of Maege Mormont. Maege only became the head of House Mormont, after Jeor, her brother, joined the Night Watch, while her nephew got exiled out of the Westeros for being a slaver. There could be some interesting conflicts between the two cousins, especially since they've never met.

Eyes High · January 10, 2019

If that Freefolk poster is to be believed, we should be getting the second teaser at some point between now and Tuesday. If that other poster is to believed, we should be getting the second teaser tomorrow. Hopefully, we'll get a premiere date when the teaser comes out.

GrailKing · January 10, 2019

OKay tinfoil, maybe not, it could happen thought:

Throwing away all the (F)Leaks, DP, etc.

Based on the last two clips, show and book wordings, etc.

We see Sansa doesn't, trust and isn't happy about Daenerys being at WF, but lets say they bond, and Sansa sees things others don't she's playing the game well for team Jon; but based on Brienne's look, and wordings from Brienne ( nothing more hateful in not protecting the ones you love ) and LF (“Tell me, Alayne - which is more dangerous, the dagger brandished by an enemy, or the hidden one pressed to your back by someone you never even see?”) what if in the course Sansa's plans work out very well for the Starks, but Jaime Lannister dies and Brienne realized it was from Sansa's manipulation and she's the dagger Sansa doesn't see?

Not thinking it will happen ( I think Brienne would just leave her service ), but what if it does.

Just basing it on her look in the clip and show and books little conversations.

screamin · January 10, 2019

10 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

If their king having bent the knee and being Daenerys' warden wasn't enough, she has dragons and more soldiers than the Northern lords, so no one will care about what they prefer. I already explained how Daenerys has nothing to effectively lose from Jon's reveal in terms of political and military power, + she truly loves him and Arya will see it, so this discussion is going to run into circles now. Agree to disagree, answer in three months about how Arya will see Jon's queen and lover.

Executing (non civilian) enemies during a war, after a battle, is absolutely not the same as violating guest rights. As for not being done in Westeros, just one example: two episodes before, the Lannister army was showed slaughtering all the Tyrell soldiers at Highgarden.

I don't think that everybody knows about the Tarlys, in the North at least, because Sam is in Winterfell so if people know there, so should he and they'd have revealed it onscreen. Unless it doesn't matter and after Jon Bradley's interview at the con, I don't think the Tarlys' death will matter much. I thought at first that it would, but maybe it's going to be like Jaime/Tyrion "Next time I see him, I'll cut him in two"...or not, and get over it after two minutes of discussion.

I do think it matters a great deal that the writers haven't chosen to reveal to Sam what happened to his father and brother...even though they made a point of carefully showing us that he could have learned it long ago, had the info not deliberately been withheld. IMO, they're saving that reveal for when it can do the most harm...Sam finding out when the killer is right there, before he's had a chance to assimilate the shock, anger and grief (sure, his father was a douche, but he liked his brother, and his mother will be heartbroken.) In that moment he'd be likely to lash out at Dany with the one potent weapon he has against her - the info that she's not actually the queen. And the most damaging way for him to lash out is to do it in public where everyone can hear so the info can't be hushed up and forgotten.

And if Dany gets to thinking that it doesn't matter whether the people she's now the official monarch of are saying she's not the legitimate ruler and are restive and resentful about it because "she has dragons and more soldiers than the Northern lords, so no one will care what they prefer," all she has to do is remember what happened in Essos, where she defeated reigning rulers fair and square, but despite having dragons and a superior army STILL had to deal with guerrila rebels, who despite her increasingly draconian (heh) measures still eventually broke out in open insurrection. Remembering that, I doubt she will be very comforted to think that she has the superior army and dragons (one less than she had in Essos) if the people start murmuring against her here.

While I doubt the North will resort to guerrilla warfare in this case, I DO imagine a scene where Dany is holding court in WF's court and one of the Nothern lords will praise her reputation for stern justice, then commiserate with her on what must've been a shock to hear Sam's news about Jon's true parentage. And the lord is not questioning her good faith in accepting Jon's crown when she didn't know the true facts - perish the thought! But now that she's had a chance to think it over, shouldn't her exquisite sense of justice lead her to conclude that it is both just and wise to hand the rule over to the man who has the right of succession AND is far more familiar with the land and its people, as well as of Northern blood? While she takes her honored place as consort and temporary heir and helps him with her dragons and the eventual production of more heirs, as a good loyal Targaryen auntie should?

Jon might happily tell the lord that he handed over the crown freely to Dany without preconditions, and offer to fight a duel with any lord who has a problem with that. But he wouldn't be willing to strong-arm Sam into telling the lords he was lying about Jon being Aegon and Bran into backing that up, and he would disapprove of Dany trying to do so - when that would seem like the appropriate thing to do in her eyes, to keep her authority from being undermined. That necessarily will lead to frustration in their relationship. And while I think they are in love and will work things out eventually, I'm pretty sure the honeymoon's over permanently and they're going to struggle and clash. I do think it would be bad writing if the showrunners smooth it over in half an episode as an unimportant hiccup in their True Love, which conquers all with unrealistic ease.

I say nothing further about Arya's attitude to it, as we agree to disagree on that.

Edited January 10, 2019 by screamin

Lady Iris · January 10, 2019

I just wanna see and feel the feels of Jon and Arya reuniting! I swear, this wait better have the payoff of all payoffs!

Happy Harpy · January 10, 2019

2 hours ago, screamin said:

And if Dany gets to thinking that it doesn't matter whether the people she's now the official monarch of are saying she's not the legitimate ruler and are restive and resentful about it because "she has dragons and more soldiers than the Northern lords, so no one will care what they prefer," all she has to do is remember what happened in Essos, where she defeated reigning rulers fair and square, but despite having dragons and a superior army STILL had to deal with guerrila rebels, who despite her increasingly draconian (heh) measures still eventually broke out in open insurrection.

While I doubt the North will resort to guerrilla warfare in this case,

There won't be an insurrection or guerilla warfare in the North. Not immediately because Dany is too powerful for the Northerners to go against, and not on the long run because there will be no long run. There's a reason why I talked about two episodes, top: the AOTD is going to wipe out the North. The scourging will already be ongoing in 8x01.

About the following part, sorry, it doesn't make sense at all to me. I can't even wrap my head around it. Why would Jon ask Sam to lie about his parentage for Dany? To uphold the vow of fealty he took, he just needs to refuse a crown he doesn't want and thinks she deserves (since he chose her as his queen); knowing his parentage doesn't change the reasons why he took this vow. And for that matter, why would the Northern lords get to decide for the whole Seven Kingdoms, especially when they're rebels to the Crown for declaring their independence? How is Jon familiar with the land or its people, he doesn't know six of those Seven Kingdoms? Why would the Northern lords want to promote Jon, whereas they spent the whole S7 questionning him and his decision, and learning he's a Targaryen might make him even less desirable in their eyes? Moreover, in spite of their stupidity, why would they be idiotic enough to demand a queen whose help they need and who has her whole warfare at their door, step down, especially if they distrust her and think she's the "burn them all" type? Why would they go for this type of sterile and dangerous confrontation, whereas proposing she takes Jon as a husband (since they're "no so secret lovers") would be a much more profitable, safer and smarter strategy?

But actually, the answers to those questions don't matter either. The result will be the same: there's a zombie apocalypse coming. By 8x03 or 8x04, the Northern lords will have lost their castles, their subjects, their resources and be destitute refugees...if they're lucky enough to escape with their lives.

4 hours ago, merrick715 said:

Speaking of overlooked reunions, how do you think Lyanna Mormont is going to react to seeing Jorah? The only reason Lyanna is the head of House Mormont is because she is the surviving daughter of Maege Mormont. Maege only became the head of House Mormont, after Jeor, her brother, joined the Night Watch, while her nephew got exiled out of the Westeros for being a slaver. There could be some interesting conflicts between the two cousins, especially since they've never met.

Knowing Little Miss Badass, imo she's going to give Jorah the stinkiest stinky eye at first. A scathing remark, maybe? But imo, Davos saw right through her when he mentioned the burden of finding herself the head of House Mormont at such a young age. I think she might mellow if she sees Jorah trying to be honorable now and considers he atoned for his crime by helping Daenerys with ending slavery in parts of Essos. She could do with the moral support of an older family member.

I personally would love a scene where Jorah trains her. I hope he isn't going to die trying to save her, but I could see it.

Insterestingly, Bear Island being, well, an island, it's possible that it's the only place that won't be scourged by the AOTD in the North -unless the NK aims at complete destruction and takes upon himself to destroy it with Viserion's flames.

Edited January 10, 2019 by Happy Harpy

screamin · January 10, 2019

5 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

Why would Jon ask Sam to lie about his parentage for Dany? To uphold the vow of fealty he took, he just needs to refuse a crown he doesn't want and thinks she deserves (since he chose her as his queen); knowing his parentage doesn't change the reasons why he took this vow.

It's not Jon that would ask Sam to lie about his parentage for Dany, as I said. It would be Dany who would want Sam to publically recant his declaration that Jon was the rightful heir to the throne before Dany. She would want this because she would believe quite sincerely that Sam was lying about it to undermine her before the court in revenge for killing his father and brother. And she would feel it would be quite reasonable and merciful of her to forgive Sam and forget he ever tried to undermine her if only he'd publically state he told a lie about her not being queen.

And she would feel Jon should be her go-between to get Sam to do this, because Sam is HIS friend. And as I said, Jon would refuse to strong-arm Sam into saying that publically, especially if Sam told him privately that he was telling the truth. He would reply to Dany instead, "Look, I said I was giving up my throne to you, and I stand by that, regardless of whether that throne is the Winterfell throne or the Iron Throne. If it doesn't matter to me, why should it matter to you that a bunch of weathervane subjects say that I should be the one on the throne instead of you? Just ignore the dissing. I'm not going to get nasty with my best friend to get him to say something he thinks is a lie." Dany is not likely to be entirely content with that situation.

5 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

And for that matter, why would the Northern lords get to decide for the whole Seven Kingdoms, especially when they're rebels to the Crown for declaring their independence? How is Jon familiar with the land or its people, he doesn't know six of those Seven Kingdoms?

We're talking about the Northern lords, aren't we? Dany's dominion over the rest of the country is currently strictly theoretical. Her rule over the North - a place she's never been before, a place that she will be living in and ruling over when she comes home with Jon - is INTENSELY practical and concrete. And yes, Jon IS familiar with that land and its people.

Quote

Why would the Northern lords want to promote Jon, whereas they spent the whole S7 questionning him and his decision, and learning he's a Targaryen might make him even less desirable in their eyes?

The lords questioned him because he was the kind of ruler who let them do it. That in itself is a point in his favor for them. And given the choice between a familiar ruler with Stark blood who lets them argue with them, and has a dick and happens to be half-Targaryen - and a total stranger full-blooded Targaryen who is a female, an unknown quantity, and has no Stark blood and no connection to the North or affinity for them...why SHOULD they prefer Dany over Jon?

Quote

Moreover, in spite of their stupidity, why would they be idiotic enough to demand a queen whose help they need and who has her whole warfare at their door, step down, especially if they distrust her and think she's the "burn them all" type? Why would they go for this type of sterile and dangerous confrontation, whereas proposing she takes Jon as a husband (since they're "no so secret lovers") would be a much more profitable, safer and smarter strategy?

It is in the nature of all political maneuvering to push for power, wherever pushing looks possible. If she comes in and gives every sign of bending over backwards to appear reasonable and not the 'burn them all' type, they WILL push. Why? Any number of reasons. An ambitious lord might think Jon will be eventually grateful if he can argue Dany into stepping aside for him. A lord whose ancestor got burned by Aerys might be less forgiving of the Targaryens than the Starks are, or wary that a full-blooded Targaryen might be more prone to becoming like Aerys eventually than half-blooded Jon. A traditionalist lord might feel he'll only accept a Stark. A chauvinistic lord might prefer having a ruler with a dick. A lot of these reasons are dumb, but if you think that politics doesn't happen for dumb reasons, have one look at the current political situation in OUR world.

Edited January 11, 2019 by screamin

Colorful Mess · January 11, 2019

I think a key piece we're missing is Dany's reaction to events. Most theories I've read makes her too passive when she's always driven the plot.

I think her loss of standing as the heir will make her "go too hard" as Cersei has been doing. As a woman she has to be 10x more merciless than any man to gain credibility and I do think she's going to become too protectionist. Not mad. Just too hard, like Stannis.

It's also interesting that LOTR ended with a fight against fascism. GRRM on the Scouring of the Shire: "they went home and home was all fucked up. The evil guys had burned down some of the woods; a fascist-like tyranny had taken over." I think this is what the Stallion that Mounts the World means and why Jojen saw the "sea" at Winterfell. He saw the Ironborn, but the "Dothraki Sea" also applies.

Northern Conspiracy 2.0 and guerilla warfare in the snow is right in line with this and the final battle with Dany, and fits the fight in the Shire at the end of LOTR.

I do think Jon will try to keep his parentage a secret; it's in his best interest to do so. But imagine if Dany will find out about all of the lies at once? Cersei's lies, Jon's lies, and the North's lies to pretend to be loyal? That would make her the slayer of lies, meaning she tries to kill them.

Happy Harpy · January 11, 2019

3 hours ago, screamin said:

We're talking about the Northern lords, aren't we? Dany's dominion over the rest of the country is currently strictly theoretical. Her rule over the North - a place she's never been before, a place that she will be living in and ruling over when she comes home with Jon - is INTENSELY practical and concrete. And yes, Jon IS familiar with that land and its people.

The lords questioned him because he was the kind of ruler who let them do it. That in itself is a point in his favor for them. And given the choice between a familiar ruler with Stark blood who lets them argue with them, and has a dick and happens to be half-Targaryen - and a total stranger full-blooded Targaryen who is a female, an unknown quantity, and has no Stark blood and no connection to the North or affinity for them...why SHOULD they prefer Dany over Jon?

It is in the nature of all political maneuvering to push for power, wherever pushing looks possible. If she comes in and gives every sign of bending over backwards to appear reasonable and not the 'burn them all' type, they WILL push. Why? Any number of reasons. An ambitious lord might think Jon will be eventually grateful if he can argue Dany into stepping aside for him. A lord whose ancestor got burned by Aerys might be less forgiving of the Targaryens than the Starks are, or wary that a full-blooded Targaryen might be more prone to becoming like Aerys eventually than half-blooded Jon. A traditionalist lord might feel he'll only accept a Stark. A chauvinistic lord might prefer having a ruler with a dick. A lot of these reasons are dumb, but if you think that politics doesn't happen for dumb reasons, have one look at the current political situation in OUR world.

The first part of your post, about Sam, reads as (sorry) complete OOC fanfiction to me, so I'm not going to touch it. I don't see any of those characters behaving like this.

Jon's parentage reveal changes nothing for the North. He became KITN because he had Stark blood and he ousted the Boltons. After the reveal, he still has that Stark blood and he still ousted the Boltons. His Targaryen blood gives him a claim over the Iron Throne, and the Northern lords have no business deciding who sits on it for the whole Seven Kingdoms. They don't even have a say over the North anymore, because a king isn't a president and a kingdom isn't a democracy. Jon didn't consult them, nor did he have to, when he chose Daenerys as his queen for reasons that, I repeat, are also unchanged by the reveal. They're still Jon's vassals except he now answers to Daenerys, just like it happened for Torrhen Stark's vassals after he bent the knee.

Finally, I'm sorry I wasn't clear enough because it seems you missed my main point: in 8x01, the Northern lords have zero leverage or clout because they are beggars, not choosers. And from 8x03 on, none of this will matter anymore since chances are high there will be little, if anything, left of the North.

Edited January 11, 2019 by Happy Harpy

tangerine95 · January 11, 2019

15 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

Finally, I'm sorry I wasn't clear enough because it seems you missed my main point: in 8x01, the Northern lords have zero leverage or clout because they are beggars, not choosers. And from 8x03 on, none of this will matter anymore since chances are high they will be little, if anything, left of the North.

This is basically exactly why I can't buy any theory that the northern lords and their dissatisfaction will have that much serious impact and will just remain unchanged forever.Like they literally will be fighting for their lives,an undead army with an undead dragon is coming for them,we know WF will burn and people will be forced to run south.So I honestly can't see how they wouldn't accept the help of the person with the only resources that can possibly help in any way. Plotting against Dany,waging some guerilla warfare thing against her,trying to put Jon on the IT instead etc just doesn't make sense in that situation at all imo nor do they have the means for that.

Edited January 11, 2019 by tangerine95

Colorful Mess · January 11, 2019

Why don't they have the means? Otherwise all the training that Bran, Sansa, and Arya received is just to benefit Dany and put a Targaryen on the throne. All of their skills: Used for Dany's benefit instead of a defense of the North from both ice and fire. Dany's skills are conquering. She learned to rule; but she ruled by force. It's not like she learned how to rule the Lords of Westeros.

tangerine95 · January 11, 2019

2 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

Why don't they have the means? Otherwise all the training that Bran, Sansa, and Arya received is just to benefit Dany and put a Targaryen on the throne. All of their skills: Used for Dany's benefit instead of a defense of the North from both ice and fire. Dany's skills are conquering. She learned to rule; but she ruled by force. It's not like she learned how to rule the Lords of Westeros.

The means of actual people,armies,weapons etc.Dany has them very much outnumbered and overpowered if they try something against her.How is all the Starks learned about putting Dany on the throne unless they betray her,kill her or something?She can easily get the IT without any Starks help so I don't really get what you mean by that tbh.

She ruled in Dragon's Bay after freeing slaves,who also willingly helped her free them.It was a difficult situation with many setbacks but she managed to pull through pretty well and by the end of season 6 there was peace.She's not just a conqueror no matter how good she is at that.There's no rule that says a conqueror automatically means a bad ruler,it sure wasn't the case for Aegon the conqueror who Dany is compared to so much.

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