Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[SimoneS]

37 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

Now, I think it would be ironic if Cersei was right about one thing, Tyrion being the Valonqar.

Cersei is never right about anything so safe to say that she is wrong about Tyrion. I think that their endless tête-à-tête in last season's finale was their last significant interaction if not, their last scene together. 

In contrast, Cersei and Jaime have one last major confrontation in the cards. He has to find out that she miscarried, that he no longer has any influence over her, and accept that Olenna's last words to him about Cersei were true, "She is a monster, you do know that... you poor fool, she'll be the end of you... She's a disease. I regret my role in spreading it, you will too." And once he accepts that truth, Jaime will kill her.

Edited March 27, 2019 by SimoneS

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, Colorful Mess said:

They're addicted to their dragon crack because its easy and they want easy solutions. Because they relied on dragons for so many years, their institutions of government were weak (GRRM has said this). They didn't know how to govern without them; which is ridiculous because many nations can find ways serve their people without threatening them with nukes.

This isn’t true.  There were a number of rather successful Targaryen monarchs afterward (some would argue that Daeron II’s incorporation of Dorne into the realm is the most successful act by a Targaryen post-Conquest, given that he managed it even without dragon power).

All absolute monarchies depend on force, ultimately.  The Targaryens aren’t different from anybody else in that regard.

Quote

And Aerys still had nuclear weapons - wildfire! That was the basis for his rule! Madmen with nuclear weapons.

Wildfire was in no sense whatsoever the basis for Aerys’ rule.  Indeed, that he had vast quantities of the stuff was unknown.

Quote

I completely disagree with your reading of her arc in Essos. When she locks up the dragons is when she makes the most progress. This was also illustrated in the Meereenese Blot essays - had to leverage power on her own, actually use her brain, and she had tangible accomplishments in Meereen. The dragonflight at Daznak's changed everything.

She doesn’t make progress in ADWD — she keeps compromising with evil in the hopes of arriving at a peaceful resolution, losing sight of her overriding moral objective to end slavery in the process.  Hence why we see people like Tyrion still being trafficked as slaves and meant to be sent to their deaths.

Whatever solution is reached in Slaver’s Bay won’t involve kowtowing to the slave owners.  ADWD shows that’s a false path.

[SeanC]

22 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

 This is important to watch in S8 to see if Dany's pride is wounded and how she handles it. Because "pride" was something she accused Jon of having. Does she take her army and dragons and go to Essos like a kid on the playground? Does she confront a situation where she's "just like everyone else," aka "not extraordinary anymore"? Because that fits with the ideology of the Targaryens, that they are above mere mortals because they are The Best.

The yearning for family is one of the core features of Dany’s character.  She doesn’t relish seemingly being alone in the world.

[GraceK]

20 minutes ago, nikma said:

Isaac said in new Australian article posted on FF that people who want classical storytelling conclusion won't be happy about the last season.

https://pixhost.to/gallery/5bRph

He said the opposite actually. He said for the kind of classic storytelling conclusions , some people are gonna be really happy. Thanks for the link by the way !!! I tried looking at it on freefolk but I was having problems.

Edited March 27, 2019 by GraceK

[nikma]

So, Jon and Dany on the IT and Tyrion dead. 

[GraceK]

Just now, nikma said:

So, Jon and Dany on the IT and Tyrion dead. 

Wouldn’t bother me!! But I don’t think it’s gonna be that easy! 😂

[Colorful Mess]

3 hours ago, SeanC said:

All absolute monarchies depend on force, ultimately.  The Targaryens aren’t different from anybody else in that regard.

I disagree. The Ptolemies are quite different from a constitutional monarchy or an elected aristocracy. And not all force is equivalent. There is the kind where you can kill massive quantities of people in seconds by shouting a word/pushing a button, or the kind where you have to use one sword one hack at a time. Read the Atomic Scientists article, they explain this difference pretty well. 

3 hours ago, SeanC said:

This isn’t true.  There were a number of rather successful Targaryen monarchs afterward (some would argue that Daeron II’s incorporation of Dorne into the realm is the most successful act by a Targaryen post-Conquest, given that he managed it even without dragon power).

You cut it short. The Blackfyre rebellions started right after that because of Aegon IV's disastrous reign. And Summerhall, a celebration of Daeron's victory, was destroyed trying to hatch--oh fuck it you know why. There is a build-destroy-build-destroy loop going on. This isn't stable. You're not supposed to build stuff and then have the next guy come in and immediately destroy it all. That's not an example of good stewardship in the long run. This is a feature, not a bug, of Targaryen reign. They left Westeros with no stable institutions.

3 hours ago, SeanC said:

Wildfire was in no sense whatsoever the basis for Aerys’ rule.  Indeed, that he had vast quantities of the stuff was unknown.

He was obviously doing something with it, because he produced it in mass quantities. He probably wanted to threaten to blow up the city if the lords didn't do as he wanted. The Starks, Arryns, Umbers, and Mallisters certainly felt that he was "ruling" with it. He behaved just like every other Targaryen who threatened lords with their dragons.

3 hours ago, SeanC said:

She doesn’t make progress in ADWD — she keeps compromising with evil in the hopes of arriving at a peaceful resolution, losing sight of her overriding moral objective to end slavery in the process.  Hence why we see people like Tyrion still being trafficked as slaves and meant to be sent to their deaths.

Whatever solution is reached in Slaver’s Bay won’t involve kowtowing to the slave owners.  ADWD shows that’s a false path.

She absolutely makes progress! The people who are carrying her litter are paid now, not slaves like they were before. Hizdahr points this out in a crucial moment before the fighting pits. 

She can't end slavery, world-wide. This book is concerned with nitty-gritty realpolitik, not grand delusions of instantaneous change. 

The reason why he said she should read about her history in Essos is because dragons are symbols of slavery, that is what they were used for in the past to conquer the Ghiscari. That's why they rebelled against her, not because they wanted to keep their slaves, but because they thought she would enslave them (and she did, after a fashion). The dragons aren't going to "solve slavery." She has to lock them up to reform, improve, or build.

Read the Meereenese Blot, the author said that it's the best summary of what he was trying to do. 

Ok and now to make this relevant to S8, I think that we will get word from Essos that Daario's ability to handle the situation there has collapsed, because he is a sellsword with no ruling experience, and Dany for some reason thought it would be a good idea to put the guy she dumped in charge of an entire three cities? Is he supposed to handle all of "Dragon's Bay"?

Edited March 28, 2019 by Colorful Mess

[ursula]

53 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

You would rather pontificate about his process and read the tea leaves on that, than actually try to understand what he writes in his work, or even ponder what he says in interviews. Apparently that's just "wind."

Of course it is. I have never watched any of GRRM's interviews and I probably never will and the same goes for the majority of his readers. In this era of social media where creators are so accessible to the audience people have lost sight of a fundamental truth: 

The novel speaks for itself. Authors don't write 200K novels to tell what they really mean in interviews.

1 hour ago, Colorful Mess said:

It sounds like an excuse to not think deeper and hope that he's just writing fluffy stories about the superhuman dragon people and all the villains they stared down.

And sometimes a "fluffy" story about incestuous dragon riders is just a fluffy story about incestuous dragon riders. 

[WindyNights]

4 minutes ago, ursula said:

Of course it is. I have never watched any of GRRM's interviews and I probably never will and the same goes for the majority of his readers. In this era of social media where creators are so accessible to the audience people have lost sight of a fundamental truth: 

The novel speaks for itself. Authors don't write 200K novels to tell what they really mean in interviews.

And sometimes a "fluffy" story about incestuous dragon riders is just a fluffy story about incestuous dragon riders. 

I don't subscribe to Death of the Author unless said author's sanity is cracking.

Novels don't speak for themselves because they are filtered through the bias  of very many different people.

Unless you have a "Lying Creator" on your hands, the author's word holds more sway than whatever opinion fans do.

GRRM's opinion on his characters and what he's trying to do is more important than your own thoughts. 

So if GRRM says that Victarion is a moron then that character is a moron from the story's point of view.

If GRRM says Stannis is a righteous man then he's a righteous man from  the story's point of view.

If GRRM says his favorite character is Tyrion and his favorite house is House Stark then that's what he believes. A man knows his own feelings better than either of us do.

etc.

[WindyNights]

54 minutes ago, GraceK said:

He said the opposite actually. He said for the kind of classic storytelling conclusions , some people are gonna be really happy. Thanks for the link by the way !!! I tried looking at it on freefolk but I was having problems.

36 minutes ago, nikma said:

So, Jon and Dany on the IT and Tyrion dead. 

Found the quote. It's confusingly worded especially when taking the first paragraph into context: 

Isaac: "I definitely didn't see it coming and I had to get up and walk around the room when I read the script, thinking, 'Oh, so that's how this all works out!'

"There are a lot of things that I think people are going to be unhappy about and also, for the kind of classic storytelling conclusions they want, other people are going to be really happy."

Edited March 28, 2019 by WindyNights

[Eyes High]

I assume some of the “classic storytelling conclusions” Isaac is talking about are things like Cersei’s downfall and death: things that we’ve been expecting for a long time.

[GraceK]

Basically, it’s the same stuff we’ve been hearing. You can’t please everyone with ending but it’s gonna make sense. At least his response in this article is somewhat more positive . 🙄🤷🏻‍♀️😆

Edited March 28, 2019 by GraceK

[Colorful Mess]

Agree with @WindyNights on the author's statements about the characters. It's pretty much rock solid, you can't really disagree and say his favorite House is whatever you want it to be. 

D&D's favorites don't matter as much though. 

[Meredith Quill]

Mod Note:

Can we focus on S8 Spec & Spoilers in here please vs. what GRRM thinks/means/intends. Take that conversation to an appropriate topic.

Thanks.

[catrice2]

How quickly will they kill off Greyworm and Missandai?  I am certain they will not make it, but odds are on a betrayal of some sort or a very painful death. 

[LadyChaos]

1 hour ago, catrice2 said:

How quickly will they kill off Greyworm and Missandai?  I am certain they will not make it, but odds are on a betrayal of some sort or a very painful death. 

Grey Worm will most likely die in 803.  TBH I doubt we will see many, if any at all, deaths before then.  Missandei could die then too, but I suspect if she dies it will be in 804 or 805.  Though, I think she will survive. 

[bubble sparkly]

Regarding dragons (and direwolves), I think there’s a good chance they will die anyway. I give ghost the highest chance of survival because he’s Jon’s, but even still I can definitely see him dying in the final battle protecting Jon. I kind of feel like dragons and  direwolves were brought back specifically to assist with the fight against the AOTD, so once that’s over they will both be extinct again.

Given Dany ended the first season birthing her dragons, with all this talk of callbacks I think there’s a good chance she will end s8 birthing the heavily forshadowed DJ baby.

[GrailKing]

21 minutes ago, bubble sparkly said:

I kind of feel like dragons and  direwolves were brought back specifically to assist with the fight against the AOTD, so once that’s over they will both be extinct again.

Well the Dragons came back through magic, the Direwolves actually exist, just North of the Wall, but was sent South for some reason, but as leaf states they will eventually go the way of the children and giants.

[GraceK]

interesting 😎

[tangerine95]

I always thought his end was foreshadowed in the dying in the arms of the woman I love quote.I want it to be Brienne but that sounds like it will be Cersei tho.

[Minneapple]

Jaime's story with Cersei definitely isn't over. And I wonder if this means Jaime is the valonqar. Maybe they die together. Jaime kills Cersei, then himself -- something like that.

[GraceK]

worth checking out! 

http://online.anyflip.com/gtfj/heti/mobile/index.html

Edited March 28, 2019 by GraceK

[whateverdgaf]

Considering NCW's enthusiasm with Jaime's end (compared to his clear lack of enthusiasm last season) and his negative feelings about Jaime/Cersei (so negative that if given the choice to write Cersei's story, Jaime would have rejected Cersei at fourteenhttps://entertainment.inquirer.net/323014/tears-and-standing-ovation-on-the-game-of-thrones-set-in-ireland-conclusion ) , I don't think they will be dying together. Especially as Cersei is convinced they will be and Cersei is wrong about pretty much everything.

Jaime has been with Cersei since they were children and their relationship has formed a great deal of who he is, but the trajectory of his story has had him growing disillusioned with her, going from believing they were one and the same to seeing they were deeply different people and that a lot of his preconceptions were false. But outgrowing his relationship with Cersei doesn't equate to this massive part of his life no long being a major influence on who he is or where he will go.

In regards to the 'core' of Jaime's character, that was in reference to how in general Jaime is motivated by love, as shown by the rest of the article.

http://anyflip.com/gtfj/heti/

Edited March 28, 2019 by whateverdgaf

[Happy Harpy]

With Jaime, "it can go either way" for me. It makes sense that he's the valonqar, "I don't believe you" could be the last words he ever says to Cersei on the show, like Tywin.

I was thinking about Isaac's quote re: storytelling, D&D reference to The Sopranos' finale, the fact that ASOIAF is inspired by The Accursed Kings (so spoilers for it coming, obviously, in the next paragraph; I won't name names) and I have a crackpot theory about the ending.

The Accursed Kings explores the causes of the Hundred Years' War between France and England, and it doesn't end at a point of history where everything is resolved, although most characters' destinies are. It ends with the death of one character, the author's favorite, who has both parallels and inversed tropes with Tyrion.

So, the NK is vanquished, but the reconstruction has just started, maybe winter isn't over; most of the characters' destinies are solved but at that point in time, no Six Feet Under deathtrospective. With the Sopranos' famous fade to black, the last scene would be Tyrion's execution, and the last frame of the show would be seen from Tyrion's POV, a close-up on the dragon's mouth opening and spitting fire, about to reduce him to ashes.  It would be controversial (people going bonkers, whaat it stops there, oooh giniuuuus!) at first, but then some (most?) would realize that no matter what he did, they didn't really want to see Tyrion reduced to a pile of ashes and finally, they prefer it that way. And it would mean that while everyone is getting crazy for spoilers about the ending, D&D put the very last cut of the show in the trailer, the sneaky bastards 🤣(not talking about the cut before the dragon with Tyrion, just the dragon one).

As good a crackpot as they come. 😁

Edited March 28, 2019 by Happy Harpy

[BadAssRobinArryn]

8 hours ago, catrice2 said:

How quickly will they kill off Greyworm and Missandai?  I am certain they will not make it, but odds are on a betrayal of some sort or a very painful death. 

Jacob Anderson was around while shooting the last Episode. So unless they brought him back solely for a fake ending, he's around very long.

No idea About Missandei, but I wouldn't be surprised if she dies in Winterfell. If only become some women need to die as well, when the White Walkers attack Winterfell, and unless all reliable spoilers are wrong it won't be Arya, Sansa, Dany, Brienne or Yara (and of course not Cersei either). This pretty much leaves either Missandei or Gilly.

Edit: Forgot about Melisandre. It could be her, too, I guess.

Edited March 28, 2019 by BadAssRobinArryn

[anamika]

20 minutes ago, BadAssRobinArryn said:

No idea About Missandei, but I wouldn't be surprised if she dies in Winterfell. If only become some women need to die as well, when the White Walkers attack Winterfell, and unless all reliable spoilers are wrong it won't be Arya, Sansa, Brienne, Lyanna or Yara (and of course not Cersei either). This pretty much leaves either Missandei or Gilly.

The thing is that this is the battle they have been hyping - the long awaited battle with the AOTD/NK - the threat that was the first scene of the show, the most important threat. It's 80 minutes long and all our heroes are there. Some of them are calling it THE battle with the AOTD and then them moving on to KL.

I think a main character will die in episode 3 to really make the point about how dangerous these guys.  D&D talked about a lot of characters dying this season.

And I hope Missandei does not die there. I have a feeling that Jorah is not going to make it considering he was front and center in that trailer.

[SimoneS]

10 hours ago, catrice2 said:

How quickly will they kill off Greyworm and Missandai?  I am certain they will not make it, but odds are on a betrayal of some sort or a very painful death. 

Nothing indicates that Grey Worm and Missandei will be killed off quickly or be involved in any betrayal. They are Dani's most loyal subjects and friends. They have no motivation to betray her. However, everyone who dies is likely to have a painful death in this story.

I think everyone involved in the front lines of the battles is likely to die, but what we know about the filming suggests that Grey Worm makes it to the King's Landing battle. As for Missandei, I have always thought that she will survive this story.

Edited March 28, 2019 by SimoneS

[whateverdgaf]

New pictures!

Edited March 28, 2019 by whateverdgaf

[Eyes High]

Quick description of the new photos from the Sky Atlantic UK account: 

1. Bran in his wheelchair in the Winterfell courtyard.

2. Dany wearing her white fur coat with Jorah in a room at Winterfell, looking upset. There are scrolls and books in the background.

3. Sansa (with Brienne and Pod behind her and Bran next to her) in the Winterfell courtyard. (Looks like the same scene where they receive Dany.)

4. Cersei in KL flanked by her Queensguard. (Same as trailer scene, shot in Dubrovnik in February 2018 at Bokar Fortress.)

5. Brienne in the Winterfell courtyard.

6. Jorah standing outdoors at Winterfell. (You can really tell they expanded the set!)

7. Sansa at Winterfell at night. 

8. Bran in front of a fireplace.

9. Dany standing in the Great Hall at Winterfell, looking upset. (Lighting, background, hair and costuming is identical to that S8 still of Dany released with the first batch of S8 stills, so I'm guessing it's the same scene, although Dany looks considerably more upset in this new photo.)

[anamika]

I think we will have a feast scene after Dany is welcomed - mimicking the feast held for Bobby B  - could be that's where Sansa is with the bowl of food.

So Bran was in the courtyard with Sansa when Jon and Dany get there. Then I guess Arya is there as well.

[SeanC]

37 minutes ago, anamika said:

I think we will have a feast scene after Dany is welcomed - mimicking the feast held for Bobby B  - could be that's where Sansa is with the bowl of food.

I thought that shot looks to be outdoors, though admittedly with this show’s lighting it can be hard to tell sometimes.

[GrailKing]

5 hours ago, BadAssRobinArryn said:

Edit: Forgot about Melisandre. It could be her, too, I guess.

Mell is suppose to bring an army of Red Witches with her, and also either rais deads as firewights or take control of some of NK army before she dies; per rumors.

[Minneapple]

Sansa with the bowl could be her bringing food to someone, perhaps Arya? 

[GrailKing]

Sam finds out ? :

[BadAssRobinArryn]

1 hour ago, GrailKing said:

Mell is suppose to bring an army of Red Witches with her, and also either rais deads as firewights or take control of some of NK army before she dies; per rumors.

Yes, but I'm not sure if there's a reliable spoiler when this will happen. She might die at Winterfell or later in the series.

6 hours ago, anamika said:

The thing is that this is the battle they have been hyping - the long awaited battle with the AOTD/NK - the threat that was the first scene of the show, the most important threat. It's 80 minutes long and all our heroes are there. Some of them are calling it THE battle with the AOTD and then them moving on to KL.

I think a main character will die in episode 3 to really make the point about how dangerous these guys.  D&D talked about a lot of characters dying this season.

And I hope Missandei does not die there. I have a feeling that Jorah is not going to make it considering he was front and center in that trailer.

I actually think all the hype about "the Battle with the AOTD" is deliberately misleading to hide the fact, that the Night King will win this battle and be around for the rest of the season.

That said, I agree with you that some major characters should die. The Night King winning makes this even more likely. And I'm almost sure Jorah will die, there. As will Theon. But Jorah dying does not exclude Missandei dying. That kiss between Grey Worm and Missandei in the trailer doesn't bode well, IMO. 

[Minneapple]

A link to all the new photos

[Minneapple]

49 minutes ago, BadAssRobinArryn said:

I actually think all the hype about "the Battle with the AOTD" is deliberately misleading to hide the fact, that the Night King will win this battle and be around for the rest of the season.

There are definite hints that the White Walkers will make it to King's Landing, so I wouldn't rule it out. 

[GrailKing]

4 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

A link to all the new photos

Thank you.

[Minneapple]

Interview with Gwendoline Christie. Nothing too spoilery in the article. The final season is masterful, blah blah. 

Quote

And how does Brienne get along with Daenerys?

“Brienne’s allegiance is to Sansa,” Christie says crisply.

Then she adds with a laugh: “I do think she’d like a go on her dragon!”

Add Brienne to the list.

[YaddaYadda]

I really hate how every question that asked pits the women against each other. It's so tiresome. 

[stagmania]

Just catching up on leaks and mostly I'm frustrated that the Sansa vs. Jon stuff is continuing into the new season. We did this already, it was annoying and largely nonsensical and I would not like to do it again with so little time left to spare. Especially since it doesn't seem to matter what Jon does to indicate his respect for her, she continues to treat him the same.

[GraceK]

27 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

I really hate how every question that asked pits the women against each other. It's so tiresome. 

Seriously. Dany is looking soft, happy and nice in most of these photos. The couple she doesn’t you know someone’s being petty as hell and giving her a hard time. 😂

[GraceK]

21 minutes ago, stagmania said:

Just catching up on leaks and mostly I'm frustrated that the Sansa vs. Jon stuff is continuing into the new season. We did this already, it was annoying and largely nonsensical and I would not like to do it again with so little time left to spare. Especially since it doesn't seem to matter what Jon does to indicate his respect for her, she continues to treat him the same.

I’m happy he finally found someone who loves and respects him and doesn’t treat him like a dumbass. Daenarys is even gonna teach him how to ride Rhaegal, it looks like, which is an amazing level of trust. She even told him point blank last season that if she trusted him from the beginning and just listened to him none of this crap with Viserion would have happened. I don’t think anyone has ever said that to him or given him that kind of love his whole life except for Arya . Just my opinion. I don’t think they are turning against each  other.

Edited March 28, 2019 by GraceK

[SeanC]

55 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

I really hate how every question that asked pits the women against each other. It's so tiresome. 

I agree in general, but since the show’s promotion is hyping discord between Dany and Sansa/others in the North, it’s probably a legitimate question to ask here.

[Minneapple]

7 minutes ago, GraceK said:

Seriously. Dany is looking soft, happy and nice in most of these photos. The couple she doesn’t you know someone’s being petty as hell and giving her a hard time. 😂

Except maybe Sam...I don't think he's being petty.

[GraceK]

5 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

Except maybe Sam...I don't think he's being petty.

Agree. He’s never been petty and I reserve judgment until I see the context of this scene. It’s being blown up all over in different interpretations depending on who you stan 🙄

[YaddaYadda]

34 minutes ago, SeanC said:

I agree in general, but since the show’s promotion is hyping discord between Dany and Sansa/others in the North, it’s probably a legitimate question to ask here.

I wouldn't have such a problem with it if it wasn't the sort of stories they keep pushing in the media, like last season's Arya/Sansa very badly written feud. 

The drama they want to create is usually between them women. They resolved the issues between the men who went beyond the wall last season within the last 10 minutes of the episode and carried that over the following one where they came to work together and worked together.

I find it really annoying. But that's just my feeling on the matter.

[whateverdgaf]

 “This season we see more of Brienne than ever before,” she says. “I’m more involved this season and I’m delighted the character has been learning from everyone she’s been around. There’s been a timidness and a tense vulnerability that was the opposite of her physical strength. It’s been interesting to watch her embrace her intellect and humor and step forward in life and make decisions. I think this is a season where Brienne’s gender is really no longer an issue. She’s treated as an equal by all and that’s very pleasing.”

I am literally singing! The bit in bold is particularly wonderful

[nikma]

2 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

I really hate how every question that asked pits the women against each other. It's so tiresome. 

I mean, out of 5 most powerful characters, 3 are female, so it's expected.

Sansa is leader of the North, Cersei in KL and Daenerys is there as well. 

Edited March 28, 2019 by nikma

[nikma]

Isaac Hempstead Wright
 

Quote

With something as massive and as divisive as Game of Thrones, there’s no way they’ll manage to please everyone. There are going to be people who are annoyed. As far as I’m concerned, and everyone else I’ve spoken to who knows the conclusion, I think we’ve wrapped it up in a really clever way. We’ve wrapped it up in the most Game of Thrones way possible. We haven’t been outlandish or come up with some strange cliffhanger just for the sake of it, just to throw people off the trail, but at the same time, we haven’t done everything that everyone wants. We’re keeping some surprises up our sleeves.

winteriscoming.net/2019/03/28/isaac-hempstead-wright-interview-bran-stark-game-of-thrones-ending/