Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[jimmybond]

Who does everyone want to see come back to life as a white walker?

I really want Zombie Stannis

[Katsullivan]

On 29/11/2018 at 12:45 AM, anamika said:

Once Jon's legitimized, it's final. It cannot be taken away, no matter if Bran, Rickon or Arya turn up. Jon becomes the eldest Stark sibling.

No to the boldened. Legitimized children are counted after trueborn in the line of succession. So a legitimized Jon would be next in line after Bran, etc. This is why Ramsay Snow murdered his nephew. 

With the caveat that, like every other law in Westeros, you can use an army to re-interpret it. 

[anamika]

17 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

No to the boldened. Legitimized children are counted after trueborn in the line of succession. So a legitimized Jon would be next in line after Bran, etc. This is why Ramsay Snow murdered his nephew. 

With the caveat that, like every other law in Westeros, you can use an army to re-interpret it. 

Replying in the Winds of Winter book thread...

Edited December 1, 2018 by anamika

[Notwisconsin]

Posters are up in the NYC subway system. There are no spoilers.

[anamika]

So I was just listening to a John Bradley podcast. Nothing spoilery and he mainly delves into Sam and his arc.

-  The show is about internalized motivations in people and how one reacts to the world at large. Whether a person believes they should be ruling and be at the top of the world or be in the background. One does not have to sit on the Iron Throne to bring about change and important changes can be brought about in a lowkey way from the back - which is what Sam believes in. 

- Sam is an outsider and always shunned and being rejected by everyone: Castle Black, Citadel, his family etc. He does not want to be part of any patriarchal institutions anymore. Now he's realized that he does not want to be accepted by hundreds of people, he just wants to be loved by three people - Gilly, little Sam and Jon Snow. He says that Sam only wants to stand by Jon Snow and do things the Jon Snow way.

- Randyll Tarly was abusive and that was an abusive relationship and Sam finally realizes this and leaves Horn Hill. Interviewer mentions that the Tarlys got burned and they laugh and John Bradley says - which is no more than they deserved (I don't think the show is going to dwell on the Tarlys next season).

- In season 8, there's more pain yet to come for Sam :(

- He discusses a theory where the WW does not attack Sam in season 3 because he does not resist and fight back - and so they left him alone. John stresses this is just a theory he read online.

- Sam will do anything for Gilly and baby Sam - his entire moral code is keeping them safe. Sam and Gilly's relationship is delicate because there are no positive male relationships for Gilly - her father gave away babies to WW. Sam has to prove he is not like that.

- Sam is an everyman and people tell him that they don't like Sam as a character because of that. People tend to like the villains more than the good guys.

- For the past seasons it's usually two units filming separate scenes simultaneously for 6 months for 10 episodes. For season 8 it's either two or even three units filming different scenes at the same time for 9 months for 6 episodes. It's not necessarily longer and certainly not necessarily more - but biggest episodes in terms of content and spectacle.

A very nice, intelligent interview. John Bradley comes across as a smart, well spoken, thoughtful young man.

https://www.acast.com/lifeinthestocks/episode081-johnbradley-actor-

[whateverdgaf]

46 minutes ago, anamika said:

 

- Randyll Tarly was abusive and that was an abusive relationship and Sam finally realizes this and leaves Horn Hill. Interviewer mentions that the Tarlys got burned and they laugh and John Bradley says - which is no more than they deserved (I don't think the show is going to dwell on the Tarlys next season).

Randyll I understand, but Dickon? I think Sam will still be upset to think of the little brother he used to sing to in his cradle being burned, even if it doesn't receive a great deal of attention.

49 minutes ago, anamika said:

In season 8, there's more pain yet to come for Sam :(

Oh please don't let Gilly be hurt. Sam and Gilly are so sweet and aside from Grey Worm and Missandei are the only healthy long term romantic relationship on the show.

[SimoneS]

1 hour ago, anamika said:

- In season 8, there's more pain yet to come for Sam :(

Could this mean that Gilly and/or Sam die?

[Happy Harpy]

1 hour ago, anamika said:

So I was just listening to a John Bradley podcast. Nothing spoilery and he mainly delves into Sam and his arc.

-  The show is about internalized motivations in people and how one reacts to the world at large. Whether a person believes they should be ruling and be at the top of the world or be in the background. One does not have to sit on the Iron Throne to bring about change and important changes can be brought about in a lowkey way from the back - which is what Sam believes in. 

- Sam is an outsider and always shunned and being rejected by everyone: Castle Black, Citadel, his family etc. He does not want to be part of any patriarchal institutions anymore. Now he's realized that he does not want to be accepted by hundreds of people, he just wants to be loved by three people - Gilly, little Sam and Jon Snow. He says that Sam only wants to stand by Jon Snow and do things the Jon Snow way.

- Randyll Tarly was abusive and that was an abusive relationship and Sam finally realizes this and leaves Horn Hill. Interviewer mentions that the Tarlys got burned and they laugh and John Bradley says - which is no more than they deserved (I don't think the show is going to dwell on the Tarlys next season).

- In season 8, there's more pain yet to come for Sam :(

- He discusses a theory where the WW does not attack Sam in season 3 because he does not resist and fight back - and so they left him alone. John stresses this is just a theory he read online.

- Sam will do anything for Gilly and baby Sam - his entire moral code is keeping them safe. Sam and Gilly's relationship is delicate because there are no positive male relationships for Gilly - her father gave away babies to WW. Sam has to prove he is not like that.

- Sam is an everyman and people tell him that they don't like Sam as a character because of that. People tend to like the villains more than the good guys.

- For the past seasons it's usually two units filming separate scenes simultaneously for 6 months for 10 episodes. For season 8 it's either two or even three units filming different scenes at the same time for 9 months for 6 episodes. It's not necessarily longer and certainly not necessarily more - but biggest episodes in terms of content and spectacle.

A very nice, intelligent interview. John Bradley comes across as a smart, well spoken, thoughtful young man.

https://www.acast.com/lifeinthestocks/episode081-johnbradley-actor-

Sam standing by Jon Snow, yay! He's going to need his BFF and I like the idea he's going to have his little posse of very loyal people and not only Davos to face the obnoxious. I hope Arya and Sam interact, but with the Catspaw featuring in his book I think they will.

Relieved about the Tarlys. I do think Sam will be shocked and it will be addressed but thankfully, indeed, it doesn't seem they're going to make a mountain out of a molehill.

I don't know about Gilly, but Sam has a mother and a sister he loves, and the audience met them and found them (generally, it seems) quite sweet. It could be Edd, too. My money is still that the WW want baby Sam somehow and he'll be abducted. Maybe that's why John Bradley mentioned the fact that Craster used to give the babies to the WW, by association of ideas.

17 hours ago, jimmybond said:

Who does everyone want to see come back to life as a white walker?

I really want Zombie Stannis

Stephen Dillane wasn't fond of the show and since he was quite vocal about it, I doubt that Stannis will be seen again even as a skeleton. I'm afraid, OTOH, that Hodor is a possibility. His body wasn't burned.

Edited December 1, 2018 by Happy Harpy

[Smad]

2 hours ago, anamika said:

Interviewer mentions that the Tarlys got burned and they laugh and John Bradley says - which is no more than they deserved (I don't think the show is going to dwell on the Tarlys next season).

Sam's father I understand. But his brother? WTH Sam. That's cold af. He will fit right in on Team!Dany that's for sure.

[glowbug]

I can see Sam being sad about his brother but his brother was a grown adult who chose to die after supporting the Lannisters (i.e. the evil regime) and rebelling against the Tyrells, who they were pledged to. Then given the chance to live his brother refused despite his own father’s protestations. It’s not like Dany didn’t give them both a choice, which was more generous than some others would have been. 

Edited December 1, 2018 by glowbug

[YaddaYadda]

8 hours ago, Notwisconsin said:

Posters are up in the NYC subway system. There are no spoilers.

I saw two Bran posters, they were the same one. It was from season 5, I think, back when Bran had the long hair. It was a scene from Craster's Keep when he warged Hodor, I think. #forthethrone

I would have taken a picture, but it's the NYC subway.

4 hours ago, whateverdgaf said:

Randyll I understand, but Dickon? I think Sam will still be upset to think of the little brother he used to sing to in his cradle being burned, even if it doesn't receive a great deal of attention.

That's Dickon in the book, who is an eight year old boy. Dickon on the show was a grown man. 

I personally had a bit of a whiplash between the portrayal of Dickon with I don't know his name, dude from Harry Potter movies and Tom Hopper's Dickon who seemed the opposite of season 6 Dickon. I think the show made a mistake with Dickon, personally, and if it was aimed to remove Dickon from Sam's path to make him Lord of Horn Hill, they could have had him fight the White Walkers and die in the process and it would still have accomplished the same thing. 

Edited December 1, 2018 by YaddaYadda

[whateverdgaf]

45 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

4 hours ago, whateverdgaf said:

 

That's Dickon in the book, who is an eight year old boy. Dickon on the show was a grown man. 

I personally had a bit of a whiplash between the portrayal of Dickon with I don't know his name, dude from Harry Potter movies and Tom Hopper's Dickon who seemed the opposite of season 6 Dickon. I think the show made a mistake with Dickon, personally, and if it was aimed to remove Dickon from Sam's path to make him Lord of Horn Hill, they could have had him fight the White Walkers and die in the process and it would still have accomplished the same thing. 

Still a grown man who was Sam's brother, Sam who is incredibly loving and gentle. For Sam to feel nothing at his death is just too ooc for me. Feeling conflicted, maybe. But to just shrug it off would go against everything Sam is.

Edited December 1, 2018 by whateverdgaf

[YaddaYadda]

7 minutes ago, whateverdgaf said:

Still a grown man who was Sam's brother, Sam who is incredibly loving and gentle. For Sam to feel nothing at his death is just too ooc for me. Feeling conflicted, maybe. But to just shrug it off would go against everything Sam is.

It's whatever fits the plot, not the character. The characters have been lost to advance the plot of the moment. Sam not feeling any kind of emotion for his brother's death is ooc, I agree. Sam should be heartbroken over the loss of his brother, but I don't know what to tell you, other than that big emotions like these don't seem to matter much anymore. Does Sam even wonder about his mother and his sister back at Horn Hill after he finds out his father and brother have died? Whatever his relationship with his father and Dickon Hopper, Sam loves his mother and his sister and they are sort of on their own now in whatever is coming down from beyond the Wall.

[anamika]

4 hours ago, SimoneS said:

Could this mean that Gilly and/or Sam die?

I get the feeling, yes. As per John Bradley, the three people important to Sam are Gilly, Baby Sam and Jon. If Sam is going to be in pain next season, something bad is going to happen to one of these three characters. John Bradley talking about how Gilly had to live through Craster, who gave away his babies to the WW, and Sam had to prove he is not the same....maybe Sam will have to sacrifice little Sam?

13 minutes ago, whateverdgaf said:

Still a grown man who was Sam's brother, Sam who is incredibly loving and gentle. For Sam to feel nothing at his death is just too ooc for me. Feeling conflicted, maybe. But to just shrug it off would go against everything Sam is.

Well, the point of Sam going to Horn Hill and trying to reconnect with his family was him realizing that he did not want anything to do with them anymore. His xenophobic dad attacking Gilly for just being a Wildling and his brother not doing anything to support him. It was Gilly who speaks up for Sam and defends him and Dickon who laughs at him. It's his mother who finally puts an end to Randyll's verbal abuse.  As John Bradley says, this is when he realizes how much his family sucks and leaves - not wanting to have anything to do with them and their abuse of him.

So no. As per the show, Samwell Tarly does not care for either his father or brother. And show Dickon is not a saint either. As he himself says, he turned against and killed men he fought , trained and was friends with.  He was part of the group that slaughtered all the Tyrell men and looted and pillaged locals on the way to KL. Sam and Dickon are not like Tyrion and Jaime. They are not close and I think Sam will move on fast from this - if they even mention it or bring it up. After all Tyrion blew up Davos' son with wildfire and it got a one line mention while Tyrion and Davos worked together. And Davos really loved his son. So I don't see the show making a big deal of Sam feeling sad about Dickon.

[whateverdgaf]

Just now, anamika said:

Well, the point of Sam going to Horn Hill and trying to reconnect with his family was him realizing that he did not want anything to do with them anymore. His xenophobic dad attacking Gilly for just being a Wildling and his brother not doing anything to support him. It was Gilly who speaks up for Sam and defends him and Dickon who laughs at him. It's his mother who finally puts an end to Randyll's verbal abuse.  As John Bradley says, this is when he realizes how much his family sucks and leaves - not wanting to have anything to do with them and their abuse of him.

So no. As per the show, Samwell Tarly does not care for either his father or brother. And show Dickon is not a saint either. As he himself says, he turned against and killed men he fought , trained and was friends with.  He was part of the group that slaughtered all the Tyrell men and looted and pillaged locals on the way to KL. Sam and Dickon are not like Tyrion and Jaime. They are not close and I think Sam will move on fast from this - if they even mention it or bring it up. After all Tyrion blew up Davos' son with wildfire and it got a one line mention while Tyrion and Davos worked together. And Davos really loved his son. So I don't see the show making a big deal of Sam feeling sad about Dickon.

Not being a saint does not equal not being mourned by a brother who is in canon one of the most loving and big hearted characters. The human heart just doesn't work that way. And as it has been pointed out, Dickon and Randall's death causes grief and danger for Sam's mother and sister, who he loves dearly.

Whether Dickon is worthy of Sam's grief or not doesn't change the fact that it would be ooc for Sam not to be troubled or pained by his (very violent and gruesome) death. 

Davos and Tyrion worked together, but ti was clear Davos minded. Otherwise he wouldn't have brought it up. I expect Sam to mind also. 

[bubble sparkly]

Rickon was the last Stark killed, at the end of s6. IIRC not one of the Starks talked about him in s7 at all. I think Dany made one comment about her and Jon both losing two brothers but that was it.

In fact the Stark siblings only really talked about Ned in s7. Poor Cat, their beloved mother, didn’t even get a mention when Arya and Sansa were in the crypts complaining about Ned’s statue being crap.

If D&D want to stir up tensions between Sam and Dany then they will probably bring up the Tarlys. However if D&D have decided there’s no time for that then it would not be without precedent for dead family members to be ignored.

[whateverdgaf]

29 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

It's whatever fits the plot, not the character. The characters have been lost to advance the plot of the moment. Sam not feeling any kind of emotion for his brother's death is ooc, I agree. Sam should be heartbroken over the loss of his brother, but I don't know what to tell you, other than that big emotions like these don't seem to matter much anymore. Does Sam even wonder about his mother and his sister back at Horn Hill after he finds out his father and brother have died? Whatever his relationship with his father and Dickon Hopper, Sam loves his mother and his sister and they are sort of on their own now in whatever is coming down from beyond the Wall.

I hope that is not the case. The show has never shied way from showing how even the supposed 'good guys' are capable of bringing pain and grief, especially in times of war. I think the fact that we were given a chance to see the Lannister soldiers as people indicates the writers want us to understand the ramifications of war, and Sam responding to the death of his brother would be a good way to show that. Something I've appreciated a couple of times is that the show hasn't just dismissed the devastation war has brought; often at the hands of our 'heroes', by just shrugging it off and saying "That's war and that's just what happens". Instead a lot of the time it seems to be saying "That's what happens in war and it's terrible."

Looking at the castings, I wonder if any of the new characters might give the smallfolk a voice. Someone who will make the main characters truly understand what their families constant fighting has caused them.

9 minutes ago, bubble sparkly said:

Rickon was the last Stark killed, at the end of s6. IIRC not one of the Starks talked about him in s7 at all. I think Dany made one comment about her and Jon both losing two brothers but that was it.

In fact the Stark siblings only really talked about Ned in s7. Poor Cat, their beloved mother, didn’t even get a mention when Arya and Sansa were in the crypts complaining about Ned’s statue being crap.

If D&D want to stir up tensions between Sam and Dany then they will probably bring up the Tarlys. However if D&D have decided there’s no time for that then it would not be without precedent for dead family members to be ignored.

True, but following Rickon's death Jon very nearly ended up beating Ramsay to death, and Arya murdered all the Freys complicit in Catelyn and Robb's murders, so their deaths weren't ignored. Sam most likely isn't going to get a chance to do something similar, so him talking about Dickon's death is the only chance he will have to have an in character reaction.

Edited December 2, 2018 by whateverdgaf

[anamika]

30 minutes ago, whateverdgaf said:

Not being a saint does not equal not being mourned by a brother who is in canon one of the most loving and big hearted characters. The human heart just doesn't work that way. And as it has been pointed out, Dickon and Randall's death causes grief and danger for Sam's mother and sister, who he loves dearly.

Whether Dickon is worthy of Sam's grief or not doesn't change the fact that it would be ooc for Sam not to be troubled or pained by his (very violent and gruesome) death. 

Davos and Tyrion worked together, but ti was clear Davos minded. Otherwise he wouldn't have brought it up. I expect Sam to mind also. 

As I mentioned, Davos loved his son dearly. And even he was able to put things aside and work together with Tyrion towards a common goal.  Sam loves Jon and vice versa and Sam understands what's at stake here. That's the deal with Jon's crew. People like Jon, Davos, Sam etc. understand that at some point it's time to put aside grudges and focus on what's important. That's why Jon was ready to make common cause with the Boltons who were involved in the Red Wedding. Why he made peace with the Umber/Karstark children. Why Davos put aside the fact that Tyrion blew up his son and worked with him and will continue to fight alongside Tyrion against WW/Cersei in the future. I can see Sam doing the same. Will Sam and Dany become best buds? I don't think so - we have 6 episodes to get to an ending. But I can see Sam acknowledging what Dany did during war with the enemy and moving on.

And from this interview where Jon Bradley laughs, shrugs aside and basically has no reaction to the Tarly deaths other than saying they deserved it, I get the feeling the show is not going to spend any time on this. It was there to create conflict between Dany and Tyrion - now that's done, I am not sure it's a plot point the show will revisit. Other than to maybe show that Sam is willing to work with Dany because there are greater things at stake.

30 minutes ago, whateverdgaf said:

Not being a saint does not equal not being mourned by a brother who is in canon one of the most loving and big hearted characters.

If Jon had been there when Randyll slandered Sam, Jon would have stood up for Sam and defended him. That's what being loving and big hearted means. Dickon laughing at Sam and sitting there doing nothing while his father shit on him, is not what I would call being big hearted. Show Dickon was an an ass.

Edited December 2, 2018 by anamika

[SimoneS]

I thought the point of the Tarlys' deaths was to cause friction between Dany and Sam this coming season, but after John's interview, now I wonder if it was done to cause Tyrion to doubt Dany and set him on the path to betrayal.

Edited December 2, 2018 by SimoneS

[whateverdgaf]

10 minutes ago, anamika said:

As I mentioned, Davos loved his son dearly. And even he was able to put things aside and work together with Tyrion towards a common goal.  Sam loves Jon and vice versa and Sam understands what's at stake here. That's the deal with Jon's crew. People like Jon, Davos, Sam etc. understand that at some point it's time to put aside grudges and focus on what's important. That's why Jon was ready to make common cause with the Boltons who were involved in the Red Wedding. Why he made peace with the Umber/Karstark children. Why Davos put aside the fact that Tyrion blew up his son and worked with him and will continue to fight alongside Tyrion against WW/Cersei in the future. I can see Sam doing the same. Will Sam and Dany become best buds? I don't think so - we have 6 episodes to get to an ending. But I can see Sam acknowledging what Dany did during war with the enemy and moving on.

And from this interview where Jon Bradley laughs, shrugs aside and basically has no reaction to the Tarly deaths other than saying they deserved it, I get the feeling the show is not going to spend any time on this. It was there to create conflict between Dany and Tyrion - now that's done, I am not sure it's a plot point the show will revisit. Other than to maybe show that Sam is willing to work with Dany because there are greater things at stake.

I wasn't talking about making a major plot point of Sam's grief, but I do expect it to be acknowledged, just as these past grievances were acknowledged as well. I want Sam to remain consistent as the loving, kind hearted character we have gotten to know him as.

That said, there will supposedly come a time when the White Walkers are defeated and past grudges and personal grievances may remerge. Of course, my actual preference is for everyone to start of determined to just grit their teeth and try to work together, but then as the true horrors of winter and fighting the White Walkers kick in (lack of food, lack of sunlight, more and more people dying), people's resolve begins to break and that's when all the possible conflict between the characters (Sam and Dany, the Northerners and Dany, the Starks and Jaime, Tyrion and Davos etc...) all comes to the fore.

Edited December 2, 2018 by whateverdgaf

[Stella]

7 minutes ago, whateverdgaf said:

I expect Sam to mind also. 

Yes. No one is going to OK with their parent and brother being burned alive. Even if they were awful.

The show has been pretty clear in establishing burning deaths as the worst. I remember when Jon Snow put an arrow through Mance's heart to spare him the horrific death of fire.

A what even was the point of the scene if it has no bearing on further developments? The entire loot train sequence was about 10 minutes long and then the next episode has another lengthy sequence that ends with Dany burning the Tarleys. Then further discourse between Tyrion and Varys where they discuss how to deal with Dany's behavior and actions. This is a huge amount of screen time spent that will have significance next season.

And why have Archmaester Ebrose explicitly state they hadn't told Sam about the killing of his family? Because the reveal is coming when it will do the most damage.

I would hardly expect John Bradley to give an interview that reveals an important plot point for next season so of course he blew off that question with a glib answer.

[anamika]

2 minutes ago, whateverdgaf said:

I wasn't talking about making a major plot point of Sam's grief, but I do expect it to be acknowledged, just as these past grievances were acknowledged as well. I want Sam to remain consistent as the loving, kind hearted character we have gotten to know him as.

Sam is only loving and kind hearted to the people who are nice to him and love him in return. Other wise he is an ass to people who are mean to him. In fact, in this interview, Jihn Bradley talks about Sam manipulating Jon several times to get what he wants - like he engineers Jon's election to the NW so that Jon would have power and allow him to go to the Citadel. Sam is not just a friendly, good hearted character - he is complicated like the rest, has flaws and does what he thinks is best for the people he loves.

[whateverdgaf]

13 minutes ago, anamika said:

Sam is only loving and kind hearted to the people who are nice to him and love him in return. Other wise he is an ass to people who are mean to him. In fact, in this interview, Jihn Bradley talks about Sam manipulating Jon several times to get what he wants - like he engineers Jon's election to the NW so that Jon would have power and allow him to go to the Citadel. Sam is not just a friendly, good hearted character - he is complicated like the rest, has flaws and does what he thinks is best for the people he loves.

He's complicated and flawed, no one is denying that. But yes, out of the characters Sam has one of the biggest the biggest hearts and is capable of a great deal of empathy. He will feel grief for his brother's violent death and for the terrible position it has put his beloved mother and sister in. You said so yourself he does what is best for the people he loves, how is losing Randall and Dickon best for Talla and his mother? And Sam manipulating Jon shows cunning on his part, not heartlessness, so it doesn't reflect on his reaction to his brother's death.

Just adding in a previous post you misunderstood who I was referring to as big hearted. I said that Dickon would be mourned by a character who is big hearted, Sam.

Edited December 2, 2018 by whateverdgaf

[bubble sparkly]

Maybe Sam will be mad at Dickon for being the dumbest guy going around and martyring himself for absolutely no reason, and leaving his mother and sister vulnerable? For me Dickon is a plot point not a character so I don’t GAF that he’s dead and I hope nobody wastes precious screen time next season talking about someone whose biggest claim to fame is being a walking dick joke for Bronn.

[anamika]

Folks who dislike Dany and expect her to get hate from Jon's friends in the North are going to be sorely disappointed next season. Like we saw with Davos, they are all going to end up embracing her just like Jon. As per John's interview, looks like Sam is not going to care much about the Tarlys. I can see Arya, Ghost, Bran, Lyanna Mormont etc. liking Dany and getting along with her. There's only going to be a few naysayers like Glover making trouble. 

The Tarly deaths are a big deal only to a certain section of fans. Otherwise it's just there to create conflict between dany and tyrion. 

Edited December 2, 2018 by anamika

[whateverdgaf]

4 minutes ago, bubble sparkly said:

Maybe Sam will be mad at Dickon for being the dumbest guy going around and martyring himself for absolutely no reason, and leaving his mother and sister vulnerable? For me Dickon is a plot point not a character so I don’t GAF that he’s dead and I hope nobody wastes precious screen time next season talking about someone whose biggest claim to fame is being a walking dick joke for Bronn.

Or maybe it will be used as another opportunity to show the ramifications of war and the suffering it causes for everyone involved, and allow the show to keep its moral complexity. Right now the major conflict is between the White Walkers and the humans, which is pretty black and white. The human conflict comes from having people with understandable fears and grievances being forced to work together. It will be a disappointment to see all that potential wasted.

Edited December 2, 2018 by whateverdgaf

[whateverdgaf]

I'm not majorly invested in Daenerys, but I want to see Sam react to his brother's death because I like seeing conflict carried through, instead of just shoved under the rug. I do actually adore Jaime, but when he arrives at Winterfell next season I don't want everyone to just forget what he did to Bran or the fighting between the Lannisters. Brienne and Jaime are my OTP to end my OTPs but I don't want the Stark girls to just start happily shipping it and ignore the ramifications this could have on Brienne's oath. Tyrion and Davos are two of my favourite characters but I would still prefer more of a fallout about Davos's son's death. And I would like to see the conflict that comes from having Southerners, Northerners, Wildings, Dothraki and Unsullied all be forced to fight and live together despite the historic prejudices. The fact that all this resentment is present whilst their lives depend on working together is what gives it so much potential. It's that balance between loathing each other and needing each other that I want to see fully explored. 

[Happy Harpy]

1 hour ago, SimoneS said:

I thought the point of the Tarlys' deaths was to cause friction between Dany and Sam this coming season, but after John's interview, now I wonder if it was done to cause Tyrion to doubt Dany and set him on the path to betrayal.

 

Very interesting idea. It would explain the sudden and unexplainable fire-shyness of the guy who is, after all, the trailblazer in the recent use of wildfire in Westeros.

The thing that got me thinking "Crispy Tarlys are going to be a Thing later", was Ambrose not telling Sam. Yet, Ambrose could have assumed that Sam had a close relationship with his brother and father and when you think of it, the maesters at the Citadel were portrayed as wide off the mark for everything that wasn't purely scholarly.

I don't think it will be entirely ignored, if only because imo, Jon is going to serve Sam with the same speech Sam served him when it came to asking Roose Bolton for men. It might be used in the bigger scheme of things, like questioning Dany's character, and Jon could ask Sam to "see for himself who she really is", which he'd accept because he trusts his friend.

1 hour ago, bubble sparkly said:

If D&D want to stir up tensions between Sam and Dany then they will probably bring up the Tarlys. However if D&D have decided there’s no time for that then it would not be without precedent for dead family members to be ignored.

ICAM, it all comes down to what they decide. Another precedent, even more telling: In S4, Arya has Mel and the BWB on her death list for taking Gendry, in S5 they're mysteriously gone from the list and in S7, Gendry sold to Melisandre is played for laughs. I don't think it will be the case for the Tarlys other than John Bradley in that discussion but once more, it will depend on the whole picture (picture we don't have, still five months to go).

Edited December 2, 2018 by Happy Harpy
So little sleep, so many typos.

[Advance35]

No surprise about the Tarly's.  I had said last season, I think we've past the nuanced portion of the show.  

From here to the end, it's likely to be the simplicity of sword, slash, magic dragon, zombie.

Dany, Jon and Arya are more or less by the number characters.  Season 7 saw them become THE central story pieces and as a result, the whole saga has become watered down to a more streamlined and by the numbers story.

The dynamic days, where Kings Landing was the show's main location (and the characters therein given priority) are sadly behind us.

[anamika]

1 hour ago, whateverdgaf said:

I'm not majorly invested in Daenerys, but I want to see Sam react to his brother's death because I like seeing conflict carried through, instead of just shoved under the rug. I do actually adore Jaime, but when he arrives at Winterfell next season I don't want everyone to just forget what he did to Bran or the fighting between the Lannisters. Brienne and Jaime are my OTP to end my OTPs but I don't want the Stark girls to just start happily shipping it and ignore the ramifications this could have on Brienne's oath. Tyrion and Davos are two of my favourite characters but I would still prefer more of a fallout about Davos's son's death. And I would like to see the conflict that comes from having Southerners, Northerners, Wildings, Dothraki and Unsullied all be forced to fight and live together despite the historic prejudices. The fact that all this resentment is present whilst their lives depend on working together is what gives it so much potential. It's that balance between loathing each other and needing each other that I want to see fully explored. 

You don't think there is a difference between Jaime trying to murder a 7 year old child to cover up his adultery at WF and Dany executing two treasonous traitors who refused to bend the knee and betrayed her allies and their leige lords? If you think that these two deeds are of the same magnitude and should be treated similarly in terms of conflict, then, I am not sure what to say here.  

It's pacifist Tyrion who has suddenly become an anomaly in Westeros and that could be because he is secretly sabotaging Dany. In war, one tends to kill one's enemies. Davos seems to understand this with regards to Tyrion. Dany and the Tarlys were enemies. The Tarlys were aligned with someone like Cersei. Sam may not be happy with Dickon's death, but he should be able to see that Dany was not willy nilly murdering his family.

Quote

 Yesterday's wars don't matter anymore. The North needs to band together, all the living north. Will you stand beside me, Ned and Alys, now and always? - Jon Snow

There will definitely be conflict next season - till the AOTD attack in episode 3. But I think Jon's crew - Sam, Arya, Bran, Davos, Lyanna - will understand where he is coming from and unite behind him and Dany. Dany has never attacked the Starks and has come to help defend the North. Jaime and Tyrion on the other hand.... The Lannisters and the Starks have history - from chapter 1 and episode one of the series. These are central, important characters - we have Sansa Vs Tyrion, Jaime Vs Arya, Jaime Vs Bran, the Hound turning up, reunions happening.  It will probably take one episode before other characters warm up to Dany. So with all this, I don't think they are going to dwell on Dany's rightful execution of two characters who turned traitor against her allies. Jon and the rest would come off as awful hypocrites if they bring this up as a point against Dany.

41 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

Dany, Jon and Arya are more or less by the number characters.  Season 7 saw them become THE central story pieces and as a result, the whole saga has become watered down to a more streamlined and by the numbers story.

Pretty much all the characters in the show now are by the number characters to serve certain plot points in the series.

Edited December 2, 2018 by anamika

[nikma]

I don't think that killing Tarlys was black and white situation and I don't think that burning them alive was the only option Daenerys had. But what purpose that event serves in the story we will see in 5 months. 

 

I don't think that that can be compared with Arya's death list 4 seasons ago. D&D said they were almost writing   S7 and S8 together, so they did't write that moment just becuse they had nothing better to do. Tarlys could have died in E4 if the only purpose was to just kill them off.

Edited December 2, 2018 by nikma

[Happy Harpy]

1 hour ago, Advance35 said:

From here to the end, it's likely to be the simplicity of sword, slash, magic dragon, zombie.

[...]

The dynamic days, where Kings Landing was the show's main location (and the characters therein given priority) are sadly behind us.

If  one main location = characters are given priority, then S8 should be the most character-centered season of the series. After the characters were scattered during 6 seasons, S7 amorced the biggest convergence ever on the show, if only since Essos was dropped as a location (and North of the Wall, too, but for one incursion); and the move should continue in S8. The EW article showed that WF in 8x01 will basically be KL in S1, only on an even bigger scale. Every main character but Cersei and MoEuron will be there or on their way.

They have the emotional bomb of Jon's parentage dropping + if the leaks are true, Tyrion's betrayal. Certain sources state (I think it comes from D&D themselves, but not sure) that S7 and S8 were to be considered as one season split in two. 7x06 and 7x07 had more character moments imo and this movement, too, could continue in S8. Most reports we had were about battles, because battles aren't filmed in studios (or rather, not only filmed in studios). But we have basically no info on 8x01, 8x02 or 8x04 (maybe a naval battle in 8x02) which means they're possibly quite heavy on character development.

Of course, I'm personally not sad that the "dynamic days" are gone (not at all if it's S1 or S2) since almost all my faves are still alive and most of them seem to have filmed a lot for next season. It can be misleading, because most of them filmed battles, but I'm looking forward to lots of screentime for them (especially, finally, in Arya's case).

Edited December 2, 2018 by Happy Harpy

[SimoneS]

1 hour ago, Advance35 said:

Dany, Jon and Arya are more or less by the number characters.  Season 7 saw them become THE central story pieces and as a result, the whole saga has become watered down to a more streamlined and by the numbers story.

The dynamic days, where Kings Landing was the show's main location (and the characters therein given priority) are sadly behind us.

This is actually a positive development that should please people who want a good ending. This is how stories end in books and on tv. The main characters focus in on their tasks, relationships are affirmed, and secrets revealed as the story climaxes and moves to its conclusion. Martin's unwillingness to do this is one of the main reasons that he has been unable to and might never finish the story.

Edited December 2, 2018 by SimoneS

[nikma]

I don't think that anyone believes that the main focus of S8 will be conflict between Deanerys and Samwell, but deaths of Tarlys won't be ignored, that's certain.

[nikma]

15 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

This is actually a positive development that should please people who want a good ending. This is how stories end in books and on tv. The main characters focus in on their tasks, relationships are affirmed, and secrets revealed as the story climaxes and moves to its conclusion. Martin's unwillingness to do this is one of the main reasons that he has been unable to and might never finish the story.

Yes. You have the core characters and you are following their journeys.  That's the first rule of good storytelling.

Martin on the other hand made Brienne and Quentin Martell bigger characters than Bran and Sansa. 

He failed when he forgot that every great story is about characters, not the world they live in.

[whateverdgaf]

5 hours ago, anamika said:

7 hours ago, whateverdgaf said:

 

You don't think there is a difference between Jaime trying to murder a 7 year old child to cover up his adultery at WF and Dany executing two treasonous traitors who refused to bend the knee and betrayed her allies and their leige lords? If you think that these two deeds are of the same magnitude and should be treated similarly in terms of conflict, then, I am not sure what to say here. 

I was pointing out that even if I liked Jaime, I don't want the conflict between him and the Starks overlooked because I think that would be poor storytelling, just as I don't want the numerous conflict that Dany will bring to be swept side either. Sam on his own will only provide some of the conflict in regards to Dany, but for the sake of his character I hope it will be there.

[John Potts]

On ‎28‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 7:50 PM, Colorful Mess said:

Can you explain where you think this is going? Is Dany going to force Jon to be Lord of Winterfell?

But Jon isn't making a claim. He's abdicating any claim to WF and supporting his siblings. No one objected to this Lady of Winterfell/King in the North arrangement, until Jon started to be too long away. So they're thinking, lets just merge these two titles and declare Sansa QitN. Is Jon even going to care about that? He treats his own title so carelessly I doubt he would care if Sansa took it.

Brute force worked for Dany in Esoss but will it work for her in Westeros? Dany hasn't won the throne yet. Tyrion and Varys are trying to avoid putting another tyrant on the throne.

Sorry, missed this reply. No, I don't believe Danny will force Jon to become Lord of Winterfell against his will, but similarly, unless Lord Royce (or somebody else) decides he's suddenly a big Sansa fan, nobody's going to be enforcing her claim either. It will likely depend on who the various Lords of the North decide they are most comfortable with (ie. believe they can manipulate the most easily) so Rickon would probably have been their choice (if he was still alive). The only way I can see people rallying to Sansa is if she agreed to marry somebody as a quid pro quo - which given her experiences of marrying Ramsay, seems unlikely. Nobody is going to be backing a Queen Sansa in her own right - Royce might back her if she agreed to marry Robyn (perhaps), but it's going to be about which man they want to take power. Not very feminist perhaps, but it's a sexist world (and Sansa doesn't have dragons to make up for her lack of a dick)!

Also, I would say that force worked poorly for Dany in Essos - yes, she could enforce her will so long as she had her army with her (most of the time), but when she left she faced revolts. In fact, she faced an insurrection by the Harpies even where she was, so hopefully she'll try something other than trying to

[Eyes High]

CCXP is coming up in Brazil. D&D, Maisie, and John Bradley are going to attend the GOT panel. Sophie is going to attend the event to do Dark Phoenix promo but she's not currently scheduled to appear at the GOT panel as far as I know. I wouldn't expect any S8 footage, but there might be another S8 teaser with S7 clips, or maybe even a CGI teaser like the S7 Sigils teaser. 

On 12/1/2018 at 12:57 PM, anamika said:

- In season 8, there's more pain yet to come for Sam :(

RIP Gilly. I kind of figured when Hannah Murray didn't film in Seville along with John Bradley. No idea about Little Sam, but it may have something to do with the resolution of the WW storyline. Maybe the WWs turn Little Sam into a WW.

Thanks for the writeup!

Going off Seville, we already have a tentative idea of who's going to die in S8, and even if the non-Lannister leads (Jonerys + Starklings) make it out intact, it's going to rip our hearts out: Pod, Jorah, Sandor, Tyrion if you think Friki's legit, and probably now Gilly, too, and that's just getting started.

Edited December 2, 2018 by Eyes High

[anamika]

Looks like House Hornwood will be joining in on the battles:

https://www.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/a2gnbc/s08e03_s08e05_imdb_new_cast_member/

And since they mention episode 5, looks like there will be Northerners in the KL battle as well. Looks like he filmed in June and July - which means KL stuff.

BoatsexBaby has also identified the Iceland crew as having filmed on episodes 1,2 and 4.  We already knew that these were Nutter episodes, but it looks like they have shot episode 4 scenes in Iceland as well.

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

RIP Gilly. I kind of figured when Hannah Murray didn't film in Seville along with John Bradley. No idea about Little Sam, but it may have something to do with the resolution of the WW storyline. Maybe the WWs turn Little Sam into a WW.

I think more than Gilly it's going to be baby Sam that's doomed and this may break up Sam/Gilly. John Bradley did talk about Gilly, Craster and those babies he murdered/gave away to the WW and how this affected Gilly's trust in men. I am thinking that Sam will have to make some sacrifice somewhere and do something not so nice - to Gilly, baby Sam or Jon Snow.

All in all, I think we will see a lot of characters doing unpleasant stuff for what they think is the greater good.

Lena is at German Comic Con. Said nothing at all about season 8.

Quote

Lena: I’ve done nothing but shag my brother and kill people. I think raising my brilliant children is my proudest moment

lol. She looks fabulous.

https://twitter.com/lenaxheadey/status/1069236413122703361

Edited December 3, 2018 by anamika

[nikma]

So Jorah and Gilly weren't in Spain?

[Eyes High]

59 minutes ago, nikma said:

So Jorah and Gilly weren't in Spain?

Not that we know of, and since there was some cloak and daggers stuff with other cast members (Gemma Whelan, e.g.), that’s an important qualification. Still, if no one saw them at all—not in the city, not at the hotel, not getting off the plane at Stansted, not at the cast/crew party in Seville...it’s safe to say they weren’t there.

On @anamika‘s point, it could be that Sam lets the WWs have Little Sam as part of some peace treaty, and that would certainly be the end of him and Gilly. Sam has to have the same endgame as the books, and his relationship with Gilly is very different in the books, so Gilly washing her hands of Sam in the show out of rage over Little Sam may well be the route the show uses to get to that endgame. I would prefer that to Gilly dying, certainly; this show has enough dead moms as it is.

If Missandei dies or leaves Grey Worm to go back to Naath, Gilly dies or breaks up with Sam, Gendry dies, and Jaime dies, then I guess the only couple left standing at the end will be Jon/Dany...and possibly Sansa/Robin. Harsh.

Edited December 3, 2018 by Eyes High

[nikma]

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

I would prefer that to Gilly dying, certainly; this show has enough dead moms as it is.

Well, it had enough dead children as well. lol

But if they want to go really dark (and why not?) they should kill both Gilly and the child. 

[onyxrose81]

On 12/1/2018 at 6:57 PM, bubble sparkly said:

Maybe Sam will be mad at Dickon for being the dumbest guy going around and martyring himself for absolutely no reason, and leaving his mother and sister vulnerable? For me Dickon is a plot point not a character so I don’t GAF that he’s dead and I hope nobody wastes precious screen time next season talking about someone whose biggest claim to fame is being a walking dick joke for Bronn.

ITA.  I had this whole paragraph typed up about this but I just deleted it because Dickon was hardly a thing and it was just a plot point to get Tyrion to second-guess Daenerys which would make him a hypocrite after using wildfire but whatever.

[Eyes High]

Good news from /Freefolk: we may be a bit closer to GOT's premiere than we thought.

True Detective is now scheduled to air two episodes on one night when the show premieres on January 13th. This potentially moves GOT up from the previous earliest possible premiere date (April 28th) to April 21st.

This also means we're a bit closer to getting the trailer. The first trailer in the past two seasons aired between seven and eight weeks before the premiere date. So instead of early March, we may get the first trailer in late February instead.

The CCXP GOT panel is coming up on Thursday. Sophie is appearing at the X-Men promotional panel on Friday, so she could say something about S8 then. (It seems weird to me that Sophie isn't scheduled to speak at the GOT panel on Thursday, being in town and all, but maybe it has something to do with her Dark Phoenix contractual obligations.)

Edited December 3, 2018 by Eyes High

[SeanC]

On 2018-12-01 at 1:57 PM, anamika said:

- Randyll Tarly was abusive and that was an abusive relationship and Sam finally realizes this and leaves Horn Hill. Interviewer mentions that the Tarlys got burned and they laugh and John Bradley says - which is no more than they deserved (I don't think the show is going to dwell on the Tarlys next season).

- In season 8, there's more pain yet to come for Sam :(

While the actors might be jocular in interviews, I do think that the Tarlys (or, at least, Dickon, who Sam canonically seemed to like) will be an issue in Season 8.  I don’t think it’s going to lead to a Sam betrayal or anything, but the way Season 7 handled the information seems like it was intended as setup for a later reveal.

But then again, this show ignores seeming setups all the time, so *shrugs*

[OhOkayWhat]

4 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Sam has to have the same endgame as the books,

Why? Tyrion, Jon, Dany, it's possible....but Sam?

 

4 hours ago, Eyes High said:

it could be that Sam lets the WWs have Little Sam as part of some peace treaty, and that would certainly be the end of him and Gilly

That's absolutely not the Sam we see on screen in the show.

[OhOkayWhat]

I really don't get why to "fit" the very little we know about season 8 (if those "leaks/spoilers" are actually accurate) with any theory about the plot we will see on screen, we suddenly need to forget everything we saw on screen in the previous 7 seasons about the characters

Edited December 3, 2018 by OhOkayWhat

[screamin]

I think "more pain for Sam" might have nothing to do with Gilly and her babe. It may be that as study-books-and-exposition-them-for-the-audience guy, he may be the one who finally figures out that one Targaryen might have to be sacrificed to defeat the NK, and have to tell Jon and/or Dany about it. It may even be that he tells it to Tyrion first, because Tyrion is the other bookish guy and Sam may figure that Tyrion might be smart enough to figure a way around the prophecy - but Tyrion ends up using it for his own dubious ends.

Edited December 3, 2018 by screamin

[nikma]

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

True Detective is now scheduled to air two episodes on one night when the show premieres on January 13th. This potentially moves GOT up from the previous earliest possible premiere date (April 28th) to April 21st.

I mean, it could be even earlier since there is no information about BLL's premiere date.

[Minneapple]

2 hours ago, SeanC said:

While the actors might be jocular in interviews, I do think that the Tarlys (or, at least, Dickon, who Sam canonically seemed to like) will be an issue in Season 8.  I don’t think it’s going to lead to a Sam betrayal or anything, but the way Season 7 handled the information seems like it was intended as setup for a later reveal.

But then again, this show ignores seeming setups all the time, so *shrugs*

Yeah. I mean I figure there was a reason they had Dany be like "TARLYS HEY TARLYS, YEAH, YOU TARLYS, YOU MUST SUBMIT OR DRACARYS." Plus then the other maesters at the Citadel were like "Let's not tell Sam because it will be hilarious if he finds out later." So they make a point to show the Tarly home, have Dany burn the Tarlys, then have Sam not find out...and then next year Sam finds out and is all "My dad and brother are dead let's move on!" It makes no sense and yet I wouldn't put it past the writers.