S05.E13: The Soviet Division

[Bannon]

1 minute ago, MissBluxom said:

You have posted several times that P&E (as well as other characters in this show) cannot possibly behave in the way they do if they are supposed to be as skilled as they are and as adept at their jobs as they are.

You make your arguments very well and I can't recall any time that I've ever substantially disagreed with what you've said.

I'm interested in trying to understand why this has happened. Is it possible that as the writers create situations that are increasingly more complicated and as P & E have to juggle more and more of these situations concurrently, that it's just too difficult to write them anywhere near to the level of realism they would be if they were actual real life agents?

I also wonder if there are any other factors beyond the two in the above paragraph that make it increasingly difficult on the writers to maintain the same level of excitement as they did in the first two seasons?

After all, as I recall, both of the showrunners have worked in this field and so they probably understand the effect of managing more and more cases simultaneously and having to deal with what happens when one or more of them blows up in some unexpected direction.

I'd be interested in asking your opinion about why P&E appear as if they've turned off much of their brain power? Do you think the writers have just gotten to the "burn out" stage themselves or are they just getting lazy or have they just run out of good story lines?

This seems to me to be a real puzzle - for sure!

I'm kind of out of time this morning,  but I'll try to check back. The frustrating thing for me was that so much is inexplicable to me; there were ways to incorporate some of these storylines without the main characters suddenly becoming stupid.

[stagmania]

As soon as Philip said the decision was made, followed by a montage with my favorite Elton John song, I knew it wasn't made and they weren't going anywhere. I didn't expect the deus ex machina to come from the Kimmy plot, though, so they got me there.

I liked this season overall, though I share some of the frustrations of everyone else. I think this idea of focusing on P&E's burnout and depression probably would have worked better if the rest of the compelling cast of characters we knew were still in place and fueling the story. As it was, they set this emotionally remote and downbeat tale against the backdrop of a bunch of new characters we don't care about, and so much of it fell flat. 

But I appreciated the evolution we saw here. Elizabeth is truly changed; she's barely recognizable as the woman who began the series, and that change is borne of allowing herself to love and trust Philip, and as a result open herself more emotionally to others. Her steely core is still intact, but the way she sees her family, the people they work with, and her life is fundamentally different. I think her speech to Tuan about needing someone was both spot on and also a portent of doom for her plan to shoulder the burden for herself and Philip moving forward. It's touching that she wants to save him, but they've only made it as far as they have because they've been in it together.

I also really appreciated that lovely grace note for Martha, and I truly hope it's the last we see of her. It's a better ending than I ever could have imagined, and I'd be very content to picture her living a quiet, happy life with a daughter that will fulfill her more than Clark ever could. 

Edited May 31, 2017 by stagmania

[dubbel zout]

10 hours ago, Erin9 said:

That was a very sweet final scene between Paige and Philip- him apologizing to her that things weren't different for her growing up. Well done.

That scene slightly puzzled me, as I don't think Paige had been feeling as if her childhood was so deprived (not in a materialistic way) or constricted. So she can't have a boyfriend in the kid across the street. Who's to say she and Matthew would have worked out anyway? Learning her parents were spies might have put the pieces together for their absences and weird behavior, but IMO, Paige and Henry had a pretty standard American upbringing.

When Elizabeth said she wanted to talk to Tuan alone, I half expected her to shoot him between the eyes.

LOL at the wheels turning when Renee started talking about maybe Stan shouldn't leave his current job.

10 hours ago, Erin9 said:

Elizabeth looking at all the things she'd miss, including her shoes, was priceless. It reminded of way been when Philip asked if she didn't at least like all her shoes! Yep, I think she'd miss them. 

I liked that a lot. She finally started to see what she'd be leaving behind. Not just things, but the ease of living in America. She's just as accustomed to all the convenience as everyone else, despite her contempt for it.

I really enjoyed this season. IDEC.

[Shriekingeel]

The one thing I liked about this season came at the very end: The "I'll just stay for one...final...mission!" trope always means a death sentence. 

[Chaos Theory]

Honestly if I was grading this season I would still give this season a B-.  That being said last season was an A for me and probably my favorite season of the series.  I still say this show is far better then most tv out there but when a show goes from must watch A tv to B- tv I can give credence to the people who are annoyed.   

[benteen]

54 minutes ago, stagmania said:

I liked this season overall, though I share some of the frustrations of everyone else. I think this idea of focusing on P&E's burnout and depression probably would have worked better if the rest of the compelling cast of characters we knew were still in place and fueling the story. As it was, they set this emotionally remote and downbeat tale against the backdrop of a bunch of new characters we don't care about, and so much of it fell flat. 

I think for me, more compelling missions would have helped this season immensely.  The assignments that Philip, Elizabeth, Stan and Oleg were on were boring as hell.  The acting and the character work on the other hand remained as good as ever.

[shura]

32 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

I liked that a lot. She finally started to see what she'd be leaving behind. Not just things, but the ease of living in America. She's just as accustomed to all the convenience as everyone else, despite her contempt for it.

It's not just the convenience, it the whole way of life, the routine. The way you organize your life, the way you move around, shop, the people you interact with. Everything you know would all be gone and replaced with something completely unfamiliar. You can't really look forward to that without uneasiness even if you anticipate that things will be fine. Even something as trivial as watching your favorite TV shows - if you were to drop everything and move to a country where you know you won't be able to keep watching The Americans (a more gripping season that this one, let's say), wouldn't that give you pause?

10 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Tuan was exactly what he appeared to be (wtf with Elizabeth wanting to adopt him?)

He'd make a perfect Stewie Griffin, wouldn't he? I almost died when he declared that he'd reported P&E for entertaining and acting upon petty bourgeois thoughts.

[SunnyBeBe]

I've been patient this season.  I've waited for a payoff.  Well.....it was actually rather a meh season for me and not for some of the most popular reasons.  TO ME, the viewers were asked to swallow some things about the characters that were just NOT in keeping with the nature of the character.  I HAVE to be able to believe it, based on how the characters have been portrayed and developed over time.  I just wonder WHO PUT REAL THOUGHT and ENERGY into the writing this season?  I'll list 2 as examples:

1.  Paige.  I don't buy the way they turned Paige from a committed Christian, who prayed, read her Bible, loved GOD so much, into a person who can't even say the word religion, but, refers to her faith as being "CHURCHY?  WHAT?  She tosses cross in trash can? No way.  I don't think the writers really understand spirituality, Christianity, etc.  They also screwed up the Pastor Tim character, but, that's another story.  They seemed to try to show a transformation of Paige from mild mannered teenage girl to Superwoman, who can leap tall buildings.......no....just no.  

2.  Elizabeth.  I don't buy that Elizabeth is so fond of her fridge, dishwasher, shoes, etc.  that she just can't return to her beloved homeland.  To me, she's never been portrayed as being particularly materialistic, but, now, she's all over it . I just don't get it or buy it.  So, was E saying that she couldn't go to Russia because she can't leave her MISSION or she can't leave her luxuries?  I don't buy either. 

 Just too contrived for my taste.

Also, how old is Kimmy by now?  She doesn't have a boyfriend?  Her dad doesn't have a girlfriend?  I find this difficult to believe. ALSO , the recording device is  dad's brief case, then, how does Philip get the opportunity to switch out the tapes, since, the dad would have the brief case when him when he's traveling, right? So, when Philip is in the house, the brief case would be gone and with Kimmy's dad.  Also, Kimmy will be going to college a couple of years.  It seems to me that Philip's access to this house and her dad is limited.  It seems like an rather tenuous mission to base your lifelong plans.  

I did LOVE Martha.  The way she looked at that child, without saying one word.....that made sense, was in keeping with Martha's character and told a great story.  Something the rest of this season fell short of, imo.  

Edited May 31, 2017 by SunnyBeBe

[sistermagpie]

The suicide scene shows how absurd The Americans can be.  After Pasha attempted suicide, I  think the US government would be all over P, E and T -- as friends, witnesses and (coincidental?) helpers in the attempt to save the young boy.  Their cover would quickly get blown, and their whole lives as spies in America could come to a screeching halt.  Instead, they skate away with hardly a glance. 

Why would anybody need to start doing some deep check on the neighbors they already know are friends of the family because they were there when the kid was discovered? They didn't slit Pasha's wrists.

I thought is was funny that P&E took offense when Tuan accused them of having petty, bourgeois concerns, then Elizabeth looks longingly at her shoe collection and dishwasher.   Maybe Tuan understands them better than they understand themselves.

Because Tuan's exactly the same way. He started the show loudly claiming the only reason he watched the A-Team was because he had to pretend to like it. He likes American stuff as much as anyone.

Quote

 

I guess for them the kids are still props to maintain their cover, because their work trumps everything, even if it's been shown this season that they been lied to, more than once, to send them off on missions.

 

Given their jobs, is it surprising they don't define the good life by being in America? 

Quote

Earlier in the season, Elizabeth stole something from a psychologist's office. My friend was saying we had no payoff for that and it was another thing just hanging out there. I said I thought that was why the man in the office with Oleg and his partner was saying he had to send someone to the mental hospital, because even though the things he was saying were true, he was dumb to say it. She didn't think that they related the two things, and I can't say for sure. Does anyone remember?

The list Elizabeth stole was information about dissidents in the USSR who were sent to mental institutions because of their views. Like Mischa was, and like the guy being described in that scene was. But the payoff was just Elizabeth talking to the psychiatrist and rolling her eyes at the idea. She herself never knew what she was stealing, but it kept being a theme with Alexei's reference to mental hospitals in the USSR as well. Elizabeth doesn't know what's going on in the USSR and doesn't give a thought to it.

9 hours ago, Erin9 said:

To me, it meant she felt safe revisiting the scene now. She's basically put that ghost to bed. 

But she shouldn't feel safe there. Sure she's no longer panicking just being in the spot but it's still obviously an isolated area in an area with a lot of crime. What would she do if another mugger targeted her? He's not going to go through the noodle arm routine her mom drills with her. She'd be attacked again and she would lose. Once again I'm shocked that Pastor Tim doesn't get lots of complaints. I get impatient with the level of supervision that people sometimes demand of kids on the show, but this seems like a no-brainer at that time.

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It's not just the convenience, it the whole way of life, the routine. The way you organize your life, the way you move around, shop, the people you interact with. Everything you know would all be gone and replaced with something completely unfamiliar

Also she's ready to admit now that she'd been happy in this house. She spent most of her life clinging to this idea that she hated her cover life, but she's probably been happier here than at any time of her life. This is where she raised her family and fell in love with her husband.

Quote

He'd make a perfect Stewie Griffin, wouldn't he? I almost died when he declared that he'd reported P&E for entertaining and acting upon petty bourgeois thoughts.

I can picture the Centre rolling their eyes.

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 The KGB illegal is surrounded by teenagers, who know him as the old dude who hangs out with Kimmie, supplies pot, and gives the girls backrubs. Because American teenagers are so well known for keeping secrets like that in a group, the KGB illegal can be confident that none of the adults in the teenager's lives will find out about the old dude, and call the police. 

Yeah, I think they actually are well-known for keeping those kinds of secrets. At least at that point in history. From what people say it seems like now there's some expectation for some at least that parenting is a bit like competing for friends in middle school but based on my experience at that age at that time? I would totally not expect any kid to do that. It's still a risk, of course. It's a risk that anybody sees him. But the default behavior around this guy would I think be just what we saw.

Re: Henry going to boarding school, I've never bought this idea that they just want to get rid of him because he and Stan are the two people who don't know and care. I just hope they were laying out something for some actual Henry interaction next year to come of it instead of more references to Henry having found somebody he thinks is cool and is hanging out with now. Paige wanting to go to church camp  was treated as an essential part of the show.

So clearly we had a Philip/Alexei parallel. Not because P&E were also planning to kidnap their children to another country as a surprise (I have a feeling Elizabeth was wrong once again that Paige would just be okay with it and help with Henry)--since that never actually happened and wasn't even quite in motion yet. But Alexei chose to stay in the US while his family went to the USSR and that was something that got under Philip's skin, that they were breaking up the family. Presumably that was partly why he yelled at Henry that the family sticks together. It was a little like his Bible ripping.

But with Alexei we actually have some  backstory to explain his choice. Beyond just the obvious danger he would be in (and frankly I'm surprised that his wife and son wouldn't ultimately see the truth of his position and stay with him in the US) if he tried to go back--his father was sent to a prison camp. This is obviously something that shaped his whole life.

Meanwhile, Philip remains the guy who'll do anything to keep his family together...but has no contact with is actual family. How did that happen? We don't know how his father died or what happened to his mother. His brother is alive and well but there's no hint that he got tapes from him like Elizabeth did from her mother.  The only hint we got about their relationship was that Philip's life paralleled Henry's--he was really smart and got noticed for the big leagues. Is the idea honestly supposed to be that he just didn't care at the time? That doesn't seem to fit with what little we've seen, that he grew up thinking life was about taking care of your family and that Irina lied to him and broke up with him because she knew he'd stay in the USSR if he knew he had a kid.

So what, was his whole life manipulated to get him to this job? Did his brother also somehow play a part in giving him a push? The only flashbacks he's had are a series about the father be barely remembers and the one time he murdered someone. No context like we get for Elizabeth's life.

Oh, also I liked that we heard Gabriel's name was Semyon and Philip's family name seems to be Semyonov. Not that I think there's any significance beyond a little symbolism.

[rhys]

For the poster who asked about Kimmie's dad's briefcase, P changes the tape when the dad is at a night or evening event.

[Umbelina]

So, now Center has Tuan's report on them as well, especially Philip's refusal to listen to either Tuan or Elizabeth and marching straight to Pasha's in front of an FBI watcher, essentially blowing their cover if that FBI guy has a brain in his head.

I'm glad Alexi isn't going back to the Soviet Union.  The KGB will now just be able to blackmail his mother with the son only, not threaten two lives to keep her in line in her new spy job.

I don't hate Tuan.  He was right, they were wrong.  To accomplish what is an important mission for his bosses, the KGB, he alone did what it would take.  He did exactly what (former) Elizabeth would have done if she wasn't trying to pretend to be all caring now to impress Philip, or, more charitably, to sooth her stressed out "I don't wanna be a spy anymore" hubby. 

Spies do bad things to accomplish goals their bosses set, they always have, they always will.  They also do what they are told to do.  I think if Philip hadn't been standing there when Tuan told them the plan, Elizabeth would have gone with it, easily.  She may have even been impressed by it.

Philip's a dead man if these writers have a brain in their head.  Either that, or he runs, and there is nothing they've set up to show Philip running, with kids and a loyal soviet spy, and certainly not without her, because he lurrrvvvesss her so.  They would take him out so fast, keeping Liz and Paige in the game, threatening Henry's life if Liz balked.  This isn't a game of pick up basketball or hide and go seek, this is the grown up world of a dying country hanging on by it's bloody fingernails.  Philip is not important if he's compromising operations and agents.  AT ALL.

Sorry, crappy season all around, with a few good moments.  It's writers blew it, and the only thing that held interest was the others in production, including the actors.  However, it starts on the page, and they should have burned those pages and started over.

Character and slow builds are fine, this show always had them, but they managed to do that for four seasons without boring us silly and without jumping the shark with downright silly storylines that wouldn't hold together enough for a high school paper to get more than a C.  Terribly pace, silly stories, very little tension, almost no action that wasn't sickening.  UGH. 

At least someone slapped Paige.  Thanks for that writers.

[skippylou]

There is a new twist on an old character: the nameless person(s) at "The Center" who is orchestrating this play. It is obvious now that they have more than one cell of illegals who do not have knowledge of the others. They have info on Renee from P&E's reports and info on P&E from Renee's reports. It's just little bits and pieces but that is exactly the kind of puzzle pieces they put together every day. They have 5 different snapshots of Paige, Henry and the Jennings family dynamics from P, E, Gabriel, Claudia and Renee. They should have concluded that Paige is still an excellent candidate for a 2nd generation illegal. They also know they have a potential gold mine in Kimmy's father. The Jennings family going "home" will destroy all of that. They can't outright refuse the request but will try to find incentives to stay. They were able to get Pastor Tim to South America. They have known about Henry's high geek aptitude for a while. Could Henry's GF possibly be another 2nd generation illegal "in training" and the fancy prep school scholarship another behind the scenes move to keep the Jennings clan in America? P&E haven't admitted it yet but going "home" will destroy Henry. P's idea of telling Henry the truth just before they cross the frontier into the Eastern Block is absurd.

[Bannon]

26 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

 

Yeah, I think they actually are well-known for keeping those kinds of secrets. At least at that point in history. From what people say it seems like now there's some expectation for some at least that parenting is a bit like competing for friends in middle school but based on my experience at that age at that time? I would totally not expect any kid to do that. It's still a risk, of course. It's a risk that anybody sees him. But the default behavior around this guy would I think be just what we saw.

 

 

Every week I can point out real life news stories of old people getting arrested because some teenager in a group told an adult what illegal thing the old person was doing with a group of teenagers. Two people can keep a secret, if properly motivated. A group of teenagers, with wildly fluctuating emotions? There isn't a chance in hell that you can be confident that they will all keep their mouth shut. It's preposterous to write Phil as a numbskulled middle aged dude whose mug shot is so often seem in news reports

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, Bannon said:

Every week I can point out real life news stories of old people getting arrested because some teenager in a group told an adult what illegal thing the old person was doing with a group of teenagers. Two people can keep a secret, if properly motivated. A group of teenagers, with wildly fluctuating emotions? There isn't a chance in hell that you can be confident that they will all keep their mouth shut. It's preposterous to write Phil as a numbskulled middle aged dude whose mug shot is so often seem in news reports

I suspect that's a lot more common now than it was then. But regardless, there's no big secret here the kids are keeping. No doubt they'd spill about Jim if there was some reason they had to, but I don't think him being there is any big deal to them.

[Bannon]

19 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I suspect that's a lot more common now than it was then. But regardless, there's no big secret here the kids are keeping. No doubt they'd spill about Jim if there was some reason they had to, but I don't think him being there is any big deal to them.

Phil, just being known as Jim, the guy with the large supply of great weed (which was a much, much, bigger deal 30 plus years ago) who generously shares it with the teenagers at Kimmie's house, would make him the talk of the high school. Guess what teenagers who smoke pot tend to do? Drink . Guess what teenagers who are high and/or drunk do? Get in car accidents. Guess what teens who get in car accidents do? Rat out everybody.

We simply aren"t going to agree if you don't think Phil is acting exactly like 3 or 4 nitwits whose mugshots i've seen in my local news in the last few months.

[Joimiaroxeu]

I'm choosing to go stand in the Stan Just Bought a Clue line. But knowing Stan he'll convince himself that he's overreacting because wow, now she lives with him and he can get it every day! It'd be nice though if he was suspicious enough to look into her story a bit more.

I was so hoping Elizabeth would kill Tuan. What an ungrateful little twerp. He really  has no idea who he's been working with. E & P have taken people out for a lot less than being called petty bourgeoisie.

[sistermagpie]

Just now, Bannon said:

Phil, just being known as Jim, the guy with the large supply of great weed (which was a much, much, bigger deal 30 plus years ago) who generously shares it with the teenagers at Kimmie's house, would make him the talk of the high school.

Yes, we'll have to agree to disagree if you think "Kimmy knows some adult guy who gets great weed" is a big secret that kids enjoying the weed would run to their parents about so they could call the police. At least not in my experience. Though I don't doubt whatever you're seeing in the papers.

[DoubleUTeeEff]

47 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I don't hate Tuan.  He was right, they were wrong.

8 hours ago, LotusFlower said:

When Stan tells his gf that he wants to leave his dept. and she tries to talk him out of it - how are y'all interpreting the look on his face?  Surprise?  Sadness that she's not supporting him?  Suspicious?

IMO, Tuan's plan only worked because Pasha didn't die. If P&E hadn't known about it and made them all go over there, he could have easily bled to death before he was found. Then who knows what his mother would have done? I liked how someone's death is just a "petty bourgeois concern" to Tuan. I think Tuan is "just a kid" like Philip said and has some serious growing up to do. Interesting that after Philip said that Elizabeth said, "like we were" and then she had the conversation with Tuan about not making it and asking for a partner. Elizabeth understands she wouldn't have made it without Philip. And now she is going to try to do everything on her own, which I'm sure will work out wonderfully. That is if Philip accepts her proposal.

Stan definitely had a suspicious look on his face. Like he told Henry, he is basically suspicious of everyone. I don't think it was a OMG SHE'S AN AGENT suspicion but more like, Is something off or am just getting a different reaction than I expected? Hopefully if he continues to be suspicious he follows through on his hunch this time.

[Eulipian 5k]

2 hours ago, teddysmom said:

Maybe E can team up with Tuan and their cover can be counselors at a Suicide Prevention Hot Line.

Too soon?

The Good Cop, Bad Cop routine is not a good business plan for a Suicide Prevention Hotline. "and now for the other side, just do it, already".

[Ellaria]

22 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Phil, just being known as Jim, the guy with the large supply of great weed (which was a much, much, bigger deal 30 plus years ago) who generously shares it with the teenagers at Kimmie's house, would make him the talk of the high school. Guess what teenagers who smoke pot tend to do? Drink . Guess what teenagers who are high and/or drunk do? Get in car accidents. Guess what teens who get in car accidents do? Rat out everybody.

I tend to agree. The "guy with the great weed" plan would hit a wall eventually. Maybe Kimmie gets a boyfriend who doesn't care for Jim or his weed. Maybe she will actually develop some interests that fill up her time. Maybe some teenager does talk at some point...not necessarily to a parent but to an older sibling...to someone. I have no idea how long this operation exists in the time frame of the show. My point is that I don't think that this plan can go on for years...months, yes but not long term.

[sistermagpie]

2 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

My point is that I don't think that this plan can go on for years...months, yes but not long term.

I think it's always been a given that the thing will have to evolve. It's been going on for probably a bit under 2 years at this point, but what happens when Kimmy goes to college? Why would she give him access to the house then? I mean, he's always had his eye on how he'd have to adjust over time. He sees her every couple of a weeks so it doesn't take much time...but any time is too much if Kimmy loses interest. But even if one of her friends doesn't rat him out, how does she get him access to the house if she's at school in California?

[shura]

32 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

The Good Cop, Bad Cop routine is not a good business plan for a Suicide Prevention Hotline. "and now for the other side, just do it, already".

It will prevent repeated attempts though. I'll show myself out.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

The Americans Decide How Many Teens' Lives They're Prepared To Ruin For Mother Russia

And Oleg must face the consequences of-- Just kidding, we spent all that time on him this season only for him to skip the finale.

[Bannon]

50 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Yes, we'll have to agree to disagree if you think "Kimmy knows some adult guy who gets great weed" is a big secret that kids enjoying the weed would run to their parents about so they could call the police. At least not in my experience. Though I don't doubt whatever you're seeing in the papers.

Not "kids". Kid. That's the problem with needing perfect confidentiality among an ever expanding group of people holding a secret. It becomes statistically near impossible to achieve, absent extraordinary training. For instance, one kid showing up high to an event/setting where adults aren't going to tolerate a kid being high, the kid gets sweated, and gives everybody up. If you don't doubt the news reports exist, why do you suppose Phil is immune to the phenomena?

[SlovakPrincess]

While I doubt Kimmie's friends will run home and tell their parents about the friendly pot supplier, I do think it's likely a rumor would spread around her school: "Kimmie hangs out with this random older guy who likes to hang out at her house when her dad is away and gives her friends neck rubs and pot ... creepy!  But I wouldn't say no to the pot, ha ha!"  And if the CIA periodically does surveillance around Kimmie's family, as I assume they would, they are likely to catch wind of the rumor.  

In some ways, Tuan is just being more honest than P and E.  There was always a chance Alexei, Evgania, or Pasha ended up dead or destroyed or hurt -- suicide attempt or no.  They are sending Evgania back specifically to get blackmailed.  If Alexei went back, as was their plan, he was at risk for imprisonment.  Now Pasha gets to go back to Russia, but his family is torn apart and who knows what will end up happening to his mom.  

[Chaos Theory]

21 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I think it's always been a given that the thing will have to evolve. It's been going on for probably a bit under 2 years at this point, but what happens when Kimmy goes to college? Why would she give him access to the house then? I mean, he's always had his eye on how he'd have to adjust over time. He sees her every couple of a weeks so it doesn't take much time...but any time is too much if Kimmy loses interest. But even if one of her friends doesn't rat him out, how does she get him access to the house if she's at school in California?

Of course the thing with Kimmie will have to evolve.  The major issue Philip had with Kimmie was that she was a minor.  Now that she isn't so young anymore he can talk her into going to a local college because their relationship has "deepened".  Plus he could throw in the fact that she has gotten closer to her dad.  

[Sarah 103]

14 hours ago, TheBride said:

Was Henry working on a computer at his desk? That's an anomaly if it was.

Why? It's 1984. A home computer in 1984 would have been expensive and a luxury, but not unheard of or out of the question. WarGames came out the year before. 

13 hours ago, Erin9 said:

Awww- looks like Martha gets a kid after all. That's nice that she caught a break. 

The KGB figured out how to give her the one thing she wanted most. Maybe they'll get her a job at an orphanage or doing something with kids. 

13 hours ago, mattie0808 said:

No Oleg. NO OLEG?!?!!?!?!?!?!?

I know. You had close to 90 minutes and you couldn't have one scene with him? 

13 hours ago, skippylou said:

I am now willing to bet that Stan's GF is really Directorate S based on her gentle but obvious push for Stan to remain in counterintelligence. Paige has all but stated she wants to be a 2nd generation illegal.

Agreed. As soon as she wanted Stan to stay in his job, I realized for absolute certain she is a spy. 

13 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I hope that’s the last we see of Martha. Gabriel (Semyon’s) a regular Father Frost these days, but I don’t need to see every step of Martha’s life in Russia. Seems like she’s got the positive note we needed to end on. She's got something and someone to live for.

I wouldn't mind checking in with Martha once or twice a season, but I would also be happy if this was the last we see of her. 

12 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

The worst part? No Oleg all episode! I know that his story didn't really tie into the main plot, but it was by FAR the story I was most invested in, and we get nothing? Really? We have to wait until the next freaking season to see if he ends up getting thrown into the nearest gulag, or just goes about his life? An episode without Oleg is an episode without sunshine!

And did I mentioned yet how pissed off I am that we got no resolution with Oleg? How am I supposed to last until the next season without a last shot of him looking amazing yet pensive?

Yes! Oleg is one of the best parts of the series. How could they forget about him like that? 

10 hours ago, solea said:

Am I the only one that thinks the KGB wants Martha to teach the little girl good, authentic English and culture so that she can be a spy?

In fact, I've been wondering whether they intend to use Martha as a instructor of American cultural mores, etc? I highly doubt her life in the USSR is going to be one with no strings attached. 

I hadn't thought of that, but it's the perfect job for her. 

9 hours ago, Bannon said:

Next to this season's midge-a-palooza, I've thought the kimmie arc to be among the show's weakest, so I am disappointed to see it is going to be central to the final season. Here we have a KGB illegal in the house of  CIA officer, who will soon head the Soviet Division. The KGB illegal is surrounded by teenagers, who know him as the old dude who hangs out with Kimmie, supplies pot, and gives the girls backrubs. Because American teenagers are so well known for keeping secrets like that in a group, the KGB illegal can be confident that none of the adults in the teenager's lives will find out about the old dude, and call the police.

One of the kids would have to be caught with the pot, and it doesn't seem like he's selling. He brings it, they smoke it, he leaves with the drugs. Why wouldn't they keep the secret? Why on earth would they risk access to high quality pot? 

9 hours ago, MissBluxom said:

Can you imagine when the child is about to enter her teenage years and it's time for Martha to give her some "life lessons"? What good advice would Martha give her about how she can live a happy and fulfilling life? I would pay good money to see that scene.

Don't buy into the idea that you need a husband and family to be happy and satisfied. 

9 hours ago, scrb said:

Why wouldn't Kimmee's dad not object to her spending so much time with whatever Philip's cover is suppose to be?  He's at least 20 years older than his teen daughter.

It's one thing if they were hanging out together on the down low but Philip is over at their home for hours.  Surely he would have put a stop to that?

Kimmee's dad doesn't know about him. He's over there when her father is away. 

8 hours ago, Bannon said:

And all it would take is one of the teenage boys having a crush on Kimmie, or the girl getting a backrub from Old Dude Pot Supplier who Hangs with Kimmie, or one of the girls being envious of Kimmie for having Old Dude Pot Supplier who gives Backrubs (and maybe more!), for a dime to be dropped on Old Dude Pot Supplier. The whole thing is preposterous.

Except then the kid would be labeled a narc and school would become awful. 

7 hours ago, MissBluxom said:

But, I'd like to say that I had the same thought after watching this episode.  The KGB may have decided that Martha represented a good opportunity for them. If adopting the child goes well and Martha is agreeable to the idea of training her to become a spy, maybe she may be willing to adopt other children and train them too. Especially if the KGB can arrange for a young handsome man to front for Martha as a husband (although they will really just be partners in KGB stuff). Martha would really go for a handsome young man like Oleg. We might even get a spinoff.

I like the idea of Martha raising spies or training spies as a spin-off. Watching her try to explain the American way of life and American culture to Soviets would be fantastic. Oleg cannot be in this spin-off, because I need him for my spin-off where he and Stan team up to fight crime, with Henry helping out with the computer/technological side. 

[SunnyBeBe]

One thing that I didn't understand is why P & E kept saying to Tuan that Pasha could have died.  Well, unless there is some kind of policy that prohibits the killing of a minor in KGB spy work, then, so what.  Why would two spies be more concerned with Pasha dying than their mission?  Yes, I know that they explained to Tuan that if he died, then the mother could become so distraught that she would be rendered useless, due to her grief, but, that's not really what I picked up on.  To me, it seemed like they really were concerned over the boy and had genuine feelings for his parents, should they lose him.  I suppose that is what Tuan referred to as bourgeoisie.  ? ( Though, that seems to refer to property than affection for family. )  I also thought that P & E stressing concern that Alexi's family had to be destroyed was odd.  The important thing is the mission.  Why this big focus on the family's welfare?  It just seems odd to me.  Like Claudia said....I can tell The Center, but, it won't matter.  I guess P & E think that with their clout, they get to have some people given special treatment. 

I can't imagine why E told P that she would like to take Tuan with them (when they were planning to return to Russia).  He was a real jerk imo, even before he unloaded about his report.  Making him part of your family?  Odd. 

They didn't seem to whisper with the water on in the kitchen when they were having that discussion with Tuan. Did they they have no fear that the cover house was bugged?

Edited May 31, 2017 by SunnyBeBe

[sistermagpie]

27 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Not "kids". Kid. That's the problem with needing perfect confidentiality among an ever expanding group of people holding a secret. It becomes statistically near impossible to achieve, absent extraordinary training. For instance, one kid showing up high to an event/setting where adults aren't going to tolerate a kid being high, the kid gets sweated, and gives everybody up. If you don't doubt the news reports exist, why do you suppose Phil is immune to the phenomena?

No, I said from the start that any time somebody new sees him it's a risk so I'm not disagreeing with that. Especially if, as I think I said, there's some kid in trouble who sees something to be gained by throwing Kimmy or Jim under a bus somehow. I'm disagreeing with this idea that teen culture in 1984 would obviously mean that Old Guy is automatically be such a big deal that there'd be rumors and parents and police. 

It just seems like the difference between kid culture then and now comes up a lot on the show, whether it's the idea that teenagers have a world cut off for adults or younger kids would spend whole days where their parents didn't know what they were doing or who they were with. I know there are some things that don't change, of course, but I think the show's having fun reflecting the whole secrets culture with kids vs. adults. 

12 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

One of the kids would have to be caught with the pot, and it doesn't seem like he's selling. He brings it, they smoke it, he leaves with the drugs. Why wouldn't they keep the secret? Why on earth would they risk access to high quality pot? 

12 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

Except then the kid would be labeled a narc and school would become awful. 

Exactly! Of course there's a risk, but these kids have every reason to not want to rat this out. Kimmy's quite possibly friends with the kinds of kids who have lots of these kinds of secrets. She's a very different kind of kid than Paige. That's actually one of the things I always thought was a thing about Paige, that she was the kind of teenager who was exceptionally bad at secrets when across town you would totally have girls like Kimmy and her friends.

12 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

Why? It's 1984. A home computer in 1984 would have been expensive and a luxury, but not unheard of or out of the question. WarGames came out the year before. 

He was at the same computer he's always at, the one in the living room, wasn't he? Paige had talked about writing papers on it.

12 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

I wouldn't mind checking in with Martha once or twice a season, but I would also be happy if this was the last we see of her. 

It occurred to me that Gabriel's running around trying not so much to make up for what he did to these people (Martha and Mischa) but trying to make up for what he did to Philip, who he's not helping at all. He cut him off from Mischa, used Mischa to pressure him, pressured him to bring Paige in, who knows what hand if any he had in any relationships between Philip and his surviving family in Russia.

Quote

 

 To me, it seemed like they really were concerned over the boy and had genuine feelings for his parents, should they lose him.  I suppose that is what Tuan referred to as bourgeoisie.  ? 

 

Yes, I think that was absolutely what he meant.

Edited May 31, 2017 by sistermagpie

[benteen]

I noticed that Henry is nearly as tall as Philip now.

While I agree that a group of teenagers can't keep a secret for shit, is there really a big secret to keep with Philip?  As Jim, he's an older guy who gets them weed.  Nothing ground-breaking there.

[SunnyBeBe]

With Kimmy's dad moving up in the agency, he may get a little more security in his home.  At least, I'd think there would be some security, like, who's coming in, what hours, criminal activity, etc.  For P to get so much access for years on end.....it's pretty impressive. lol 

[Bannon]

31 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

Why? It's 1984. A home computer in 1984 would have been expensive and a luxury, but not unheard of or out of the question. WarGames came out the year before. 

The KGB figured out how to give her the one thing she wanted most. Maybe they'll get her a job at an orphanage or doing something with kids. 

I know. You had close to 90 minutes and you couldn't have one scene with him? 

Agreed. As soon as she wanted Stan to stay in his job, I realized for absolute certain she is a spy. 

I wouldn't mind checking in with Martha once or twice a season, but I would also be happy if this was the last we see of her. 

Yes! Oleg is one of the best parts of the series. How could they forget about him like that? 

I hadn't thought of that, but it's the perfect job for her. 

One of the kids would have to be caught with the pot, and it doesn't seem like he's selling. He brings it, they smoke it, he leaves with the drugs. Why wouldn't they keep the secret? Why on earth would they risk access to high quality pot? 

Don't buy into the idea that you need a husband and family to be happy and satisfied. 

Kimmee's dad doesn't know about him. He's over there when her father is away. 

Except then the kid would be labeled a narc and school would become awful. 

I like the idea of Martha raising spies or training spies as a spin-off. Watching her try to explain the American way of life and American culture to Soviets would be fantastic. Oleg cannot be in this spin-off, because I need him for my spin-off where he and Stan team up to fight crime, with Henry helping out with the computer/technological side. 

All I can tell you is that I was narced on in the era, at about that age. There's a reason the term "narc" exists, and it's because some people drop dimes. You get a group of people approaching 10, and you can have strong confidence that somebody will get into a situation where doing so is highly likely, as opposed to strong confidence that the secret will be kept.

Edited May 31, 2017 by Bannon
Spelling

[SunnyBeBe]

I have to admit that in that scene at Kimmy's......Jimmy looked really good, imo. When he got up to go follow Kimmy into the kitchen.....I thought he looked exceptionally sexy.  Mod hair, glasses and all! lol I don't think I've ever seen his jeans look any better. 

Edited May 31, 2017 by SunnyBeBe

[SlovakPrincess]

15 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

One thing that I didn't understand is why P & E kept saying to Tuan that Pasha could have died.  Well, unless there is some kind of policy that prohibits the killing of a minor in KGB spy work, then, so what.  Why would two spies be more concerned with Pasha dying than their mission?  Yes, I know that they explained to Tuan that if he died, then the mother could become so distraught that she would be rendered useless, due to her grief, but, that's not really what I picked up on.  To me, it seemed like they really were concerned over the boy and had genuine feelings for his parents, should they lose him.  I suppose that is what Tuan referred to as bourgeoisie.  ? ( Though, that seems to refer to property than affection for family. )

I can't imagine why E told P that she would like to take Tuan with them (when they were planning to return to Russia).  He was a real jerk imo, even before he unloaded about his report.  Making him part of your family?  Odd. 

I think it just goes to show that both P and E are getting a little soft, and having been parents for so long is probably part of it, along with the wisdom of being older.  

They are kidding themselves in a way, because they are wrecking this family whether Pasha lives or dies -- as Alexei said, Pasha's problems may now go deeper than bullying and homesickness (and he may get depressed again from being separated from his father), and if he attempts suicide in Russia he may not receive as good medical care.  

But actually risking teen Pasha's death was a line in their head they could no longer cross -- although Philip reacted more strongly (seems like on her own Elizabeth would've yelled at Tuan and felt bad, but would'nt have rushed over, FBI surveillance be damned, the way Philip did, to save Pasha).

Edited May 31, 2017 by SlovakPrincess

[Bannon]

I am simply unfamiliar, completely, with groups of teenagers who did not engage in widespread gossip, and would thus keep secret, from the larger high school student body. that an old guy was supplying great weed, for free.

6 minutes ago, Bannon said:

All I can tell you is that I was narced on in the era, at about that age. There's a reason the term "narc" exists, and it's because some people drop dimes. You get a group of people approaching 10, and you can have strong confidence that somebody will get into a situation where doing so is highly likely, as opposed to strong confidence that the secret will be kept.

8 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

With Kimmy's dad moving up in the agency, he may get a little more security in his home.  At least, I'd think there would be some security, like, who's coming in, what hours, criminal activity, etc.  For P to get so much access for years on end.....it's pretty impressive. lol 

Especially since the CIA already knows his identity has been compromised by a foreign intelligence service.

[SunnyBeBe]

6 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I am simply unfamiliar, completely, with groups of teenagers who did not engage in widespread gossip, and would thus keep secret, from the larger high school student body. that an old guy was supplying great weed, for free.

It's pretty out there.  But, I also think it's odd that a completely platonic relationship would have been maintained for a year or more with an attractive young lady, who certainly had teen admirers.  Girls get together and share their feelings, dreams, fantasies.....I can't see that going no where for at least a year, where her close friends aren't a bit curious.    (I lose track of just where we are in terms of months from when the show started. Are we 2-3 years in?)

Did Jimmy kiss Kimmy in the beginning?  I can't recall just how physical it started.  It seems that he put the brakes on it and she was ready to go.  

[dubbel zout]

3 hours ago, shura said:

I almost died when [Tuan] declared that he'd reported P&E for entertaining and acting upon petty bourgeois thoughts.

That was hilarious, as was Philip and Elizabeth's reaction.

The scenes with Kimmy always give me the creeps. Even when she turns 18, they'll be creepy. Philip/Jim is still more than 20 years older. Eew. I was also slightly surprised the guys in that group, who seem older than the girls (and they are girls), weren't a bit more circumspect toward Philip. He's encroaching on their territory, after all, good weed or no. Given what this story is setting up for next season, I'm looking forward to seeing how it works out. There are a lot of ways it can quickly go south.

[SlovakPrincess]

I'm starting to wonder if the writers have lost sight of how teenagers really act, even unusually sensitive teens like Paige and Kimmie.  Matthew was given no personality, Paige is just so flat now, and Henry and even Pasha act the most like real kids.  

Either Kimmie and friends are unrealistic, or Philip is executing his plan with Kimmie very badly (maybe because he thought he was almost done with her).   Let's be clear that Philip has essentially been preying on a minor -- not sexually, thank God, but using an isolated and lonely kid to access CIA info.  Keeping her isolated and estranged from her dad was essential to the plan.  Now that she's getting along with dad and inviting her friends over when Philip's there ... the secret's about to get blown, and/or Kimmie is going to realize she doesn't need this relationship anymore.  She could get pot elsewhere, I'm sure.

[sistermagpie]

11 minutes ago, benteen said:

I noticed that Henry is nearly as tall as Philip now.

 

I think he's actually taller.

3 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I am simply unfamiliar, completely, with groups of teenagers who did not engage in widespread gossip, and would thus keep secret, from the larger high school student body. that an old guy was supplying great weed, for free.

To be fair to Philip, he's not doing that either. Not supplying everybody with free weed. He's just some guy Kimmy knows who was at this get-together and had some pot.

2 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Did Jimmy kiss Kimmy in the beginning?  I can't recall just how physical it started.  It seems that he put the brakes on it and she was ready to go.  

Kimmy was more than ready to go at the start. He kissed her, but always put her off physically. Pretty soon he came up with a reason to put it off more long-term by bringing in the idea that he was Christian now. But she really does seem to be getting something out of it.

[Bannon]

Just now, SunnyBeBe said:

It's pretty out there.  But, I also think it's odd that a completely platonic relationship would have been maintained for a year or more with an attractive young lady, who certainly had teen admirers.  Girls get together and share their feelings, dreams, fantasies.....I can't see that going no where for at least a year, where her close friends aren't a bit curious.    (I lose track of just where we are in terms of months from when the show started. Are we 2-3 years in?)

Did Jimmy kiss Kimmy in the beginning?  I can't recall just how physical it started.  It seems that he put the brakes on it and she was ready to go.  

Yeah, that stretches plausibility in and of itself, and the idea that she could be reliably manipulated with the platonic svengali ploy, when she is surrounded by lots of attractive young men in college is beyond implausible. This isn't Martha, entering middle age, buried in  stressful job, without much contact with suitable men, consumed by a monumental loneliness.

[SunnyBeBe]

Oh, I didn't realize Kimmy was in college. I thought high school or are you saying that she's hanging out with college students? 

[Bannon]

Just now, SunnyBeBe said:

Oh, I didn't realize Kimmy was in college. I thought high school or are you saying that she's hanging out with college students? 

Not yet, but soon.

[sistermagpie]

5 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Yeah, that stretches plausibility in and of itself, and the idea that she could be reliably manipulated with the platonic svengali ploy, when she is surrounded by lots of attractive young men in college is beyond implausible. This isn't Martha, entering middle age, buried in  stressful job, without much contact with suitable men, consumed by a monumental loneliness.

Kimmy is perfectly free to date boys her own age. I think she already has. I think they had a scene where Jim was talking about some boy she was going out with or thinking of going out with. She's not denying other boys to save herself for him. If she wasn't interested in the platonic relationship they have then he would have had to have gone there, but she likes him being a dad/older brother type too.

[SunnyBeBe]

Based on personal experience, ( I was close to Kimmy's age during that time period), an infatuation with an older man, might have been cool for awhile, but, it's just not something that would have lasted long term, imo.  To me, there are too many activities, school functions, group events, social gatherings, that would not be conducive to having an older man involved.  I realize that he filled a void that her father had left, but, it still seems really out there.  And now, they are going to continue long term.....pretty tall order. I'd think that eventually, her hormones will cause some kind of change in her confidant or her intimacy level with Jimmy.  

[scrb]

OK, Kimmee's father would really have to be oblivious not to know about Philip.  So he spends hours at their home and the father, who's a spy, leaves his briefcase which Philip bugged in there?

And he can walk into the CIA offices without it being checked?  If anyone has seen The Conversation, which takes place in the '70s, they were using electrical scanners to detect EMI which could be coming out of small recording devices or microphones back then.

You would think CIA would check that briefcase, which is unattended for hours at a time.  Especially after the FBI discovered the bugged mail robot.

But of course, the FBI and CIA didn't have their headquarters bugged in real life, so they really have to take dramatic license.

[Dev F]

25 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

To be fair to Philip, he's not doing that either. Not supplying everybody with free weed. He's just some guy Kimmy knows who was at this get-together and had some pot.

This. My read on the situation wasn't that Jim was regularly throwing pot parties for Kimmy and her friends. Most of Jim's previous encounters with Kimmy have been private get-togethers with just the two of them, and in this week's shindig, the other kids seemed surprised that Jim was such a smooth operator and unaware that he and Kimmy were not actually dating. So it doesn't seem like they've had much prior interaction with him, or even heard Kimmy say much about him.

[Bannon]

22 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Kimmy is perfectly free to date boys her own age. I think she already has. I think they had a scene where Jim was talking about some boy she was going out with or thinking of going out with. She's not denying other boys to save herself for him. If she wasn't interested in the platonic relationship they have then he would have had to have gone there, but she likes him being a dad/older brother type too.

I didn't mean to imply she wasn't free to do so. Manipulating her is going to be increasingly difficult, however.

[Bannon]

4 minutes ago, Dev F said:

This. My read on the situation wasn't that Jim was regularly throwing pot parties for Kimmy and her friends. Most of Jim's previous encounters with Kimmy have been private get-togethers with just the two of them, and in this week's shindig, the other kids seemed surprised that Jim was such a smooth operator and unaware that he and Kimmy were not actually dating. So it doesn't seem like they've had much prior interaction with him, or even heard Kimmy say much about him.

Then why start having that interaction now? It's reckless and stupid, even if you think you'll being going back to the USSR. 

I cannot understand why a KGB illegal would supply pot to a group of American teenagers, all but one he has no ability to effectively manipulate, in the home of an important CIA officer, whom the CIA knows has had his identity compromised by a foreign intelligence service. It's just beyond stupid.

[stagmania]

39 minutes ago, SlovakPrincess said:

Now that she's getting along with dad and inviting her friends over when Philip's there ... the secret's about to get blown, and/or Kimmie is going to realize she doesn't need this relationship anymore.  She could get pot elsewhere, I'm sure.

5 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I didn't mean to imply she wasn't free to do so. Manipulating her is going to be increasingly difficult, however.

I assume this is going to be part of the story next season, now that Kimmy is coming back into prominence. Philip has kind of been coasting with her, which makes sense given where he's been mentally, and that he was planning to leave. Now that her dad is a much more important target that they'll want to secure access to for the long term, and given that Kimmy's aging is inevitably going to change the situation, I assume Philip will have to make some changes to his approach. It might not actually be the big break he's hoping for.

1 minute ago, Bannon said:

I cannot understand why a KGB illegal would supply pot to a group of American teenagers

That's how Philip got in with Kimmy in the first place-by approaching her group of friends and offering first fake IDs, and then pot. They've always known about "Jim". If any of them ever compromised him, Jim would cease to be and the Centre would come up with another way into the house. Kimmy was an unusually young target that required a different approach, but the fundamentals underlying the operation with her are the same as they are across all their work.

[Chaos Theory]

My big question is:  is this how the show is going to end Martha's storyline?  If it ends here I won't be entirely upset.  Martha The put upon secretary.  Poor Martha is the one who gains some semblance of a happy ending.  

It may come down how much Alison Wright is available.