S12.E22: Who We Are/S12.E23 All Along the Watchtower

[ohjoy]

16 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I do think that he was talking about his failure to protect Sam, because he was trying to get her to empathize with him, as one would-be-protector-who-couldn't-protect to another. And it worked.

But I did think it was interesting that what initially set him off was when she said that she'd always protect him (Dean). I don't think that when he first said he hated her, that that was tactical and about getting her to respond a certain way. Or at least not purely tactical. I think he meant it, and her telling kid!Dean that she'd always protect him actually did get under his skin.

I agree with this part, especially because the next words out of his mouth were, "You lied to me." And even before then, you could see his reaction when she told kid!Dean she would always protect him: incredulous. I think it hurt him that Mary had chosen to hide in the moments when she had cooed over her babies and promised them world, when they both know she did no such thing. Sure, he'd use whatever it took to get through to her, but I agree that he spoke his feelings first in that moment.

I will say that, even in the moment of him focusing on what Mary's actions had cost Sam, what made me feel that was not all about Sam was Dean's plea at the end. Sure, he forgave Mary, but he needed her to see HIM. She had to be willing to look at the adult Dean, the reality of who he was, that was not who she may have hoped he would be, or promised him he would be, or wanted to pretend in her mind that he would be, but who he actually is. To see HIM. Yes, it was to get through to her and get her past the brainwashing, but just as with the "I hate you" at the beginning of his speech, that seemed to me that he was speaking how he really felt, what he really needed in that moment, not just what was necessary.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

While Dean's time in Hell was absolutely horrific, he's the one who made that choice as a grown man.  Six month old Sam was an innocent when Yellow Eyes came to his room and tainted him with Demon blood, and that was the direct result of Mary's deal. 

Sam was equally an adult making choices that led to the events Dean described. Noone forced him to drink Ruby`s and other demon`s blood in Season 4. So that doesn`t fly for me as differently than what happened to Dean. Either it all harkens back to Mary or nothing does. 

Quote

He may have said the words "follow me", but the message was "I've seen the error of my ways and I'm asking you to trust me again".  

I disagree. In context with the previous scene it was very much about Sam being the leader vs. not being one. 

Quote

 IMO It was *not* intended as an insult to Dean or that Sam was cutting him out.  It was just poorly worded, directed and played so that it *seemed* like it was. 

If the scene comes across this way anyway, then there is not much of a difference to me.

[gonzosgirrl]

26 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

<snip>

What I would have liked is having *SAM* stand up for Dean the way Dean did for him, and tell Mary the hard truths about the effect her choices had on Dean.  But they just didn't have the time to do that at this point in the story.

 

There really just never seems to be time to acknowledge Dean's history. That's why it's so frustrating. One of the few spoilers we got about the final episodes was that Dean would confront Mary, and, mea culpa, I hoped for more of a payoff.

26 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

<snip>

There are two reasons for that: one is (as others before have said) that her actions *did* affect Sam more directly.  They gave him demon blood and made him something "other than human."  Everything else that happened to them, while terrible from an emotional and developmental perspective, was more or less collateral damage.

The other, main reason, is that Dean *had just told her in so many words that he forgives her.*  She still didn't know if Sam would, or could.

 

I'm sorry, I just don't believe that Dean's entire life is collateral damage or that he wasn't as directly affected by Mary's deal. Differently, yes, but directly just as much. I can't be convinced otherwise. ETA:  deleted - not appropriate for this topic.

 

As to the second reason - once again, a couple more word would've made a world of difference. Thank you Dean, for forgiving me, I can only hope Sam will be able to as well. So easy.

Edited May 20, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[rue721]

17 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I would have loved it if at any time during the season Sam and Mary could have had a quiet talk, maybe late at night (having Sam finding her crying while reading John's journal, maybe) where Mary would have asked Sam "was it really that bad?" and Sam would have probably downplayed his own hurts but told her all about what Dean had gone through.

I don't think that Sam would have any idea how to go about this, though. I don't think he would even have any idea how to convey what growing up without her was like for him, let alone for Dean. And while on the one hand, I don't think he would be defensive about it not being all sunshine and unicorns and hold back because of that, on the other hand, I don't think that he would necessarily think that what was bad (or even notable) about it is the same as what Dean would or what Mary would.

IMO it was incredibly touching when he said that her being back filled a hole in his heart, because Sam is generally not that articulate about his feelings. IMO that's the most insight that we got into how he felt about her absence in his life and her return. Other than that, I don't think he's really been capable of opening up to her or about her (to Dean).

I'm also unsure how self-aware he is. I guess I'm actually unsure what Sam even envisions about how their lives or who they are would have been different if Mary had lived, or what kind of relationship they could have had with her (and as a family) or could potentially have with her now. The show has made a point over the years that Dean has wondered about that, but it hasn't really done the same for Sam. And I have definitely gotten the sense this season that Sam has no idea what a mother/son relationship feels like or even really looks like, that he's just flying blind when it comes to anything having to do with Mary.

It makes me curious about how Sam would have handled having to get through to Mary, if he had been tasked with going in her head.

[Idahoforspn]

23 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

 It was just poorly worded, directed and played so that it *seemed* like it was.  I think there were much better ways they could have written it that would not have left so much open to interpretation and caused as much contention and bitterness among fans, but *shrugs*.  

This has happened a great deal. A change in a couple of words in a lot of scenes would have helped over the past couple seasons.  Instead, Dean fans get poorly worded, directed and played scenes that do feel like an insult to Dean. I can't believe the showrunner hasn't figured that out so,  IMO, it's either on purpose to sell Sam or Dabb doesn't care what Dean fans think.

[ohjoy]

54 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

He did not expect to "take" Dean with him.  He expected Dean to accompany him, and ultimately lead - as Sam just about always defers to Dean's leadership during a hunt/raid.

I don't think Sam expected Dean to "lead" Sam -- but I do think he expected to Dean to be by his side in the united front that they tend to present to other hunters (as in "Sam and Dean" about whom the stories tend to be told in later gatherings). But that might just be my perspective, because even when Sam and Dean were stuck in the bunker and Sam was lamenting falling in with the BMoL in the first place, his "it was easier than leading" comment came across to me as "Sam and Dean" leading, not "Sam the sole leader". Guess that's my mileage.
Also my mileage: when Dean let him know that he wasn't coming with, he started with "you're ready" -- as in you're ready to lead without my presence as de facto backup. It didn't seem that Dean was talking about a "follower" position so much as it a "man behind the man" (or that united front). And Sam seemed to take it as such.

 

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I think that was kind of the point of having Walt and Roy there - the ones who shot Sam first and then shot Dean because they knew Dean would come after them.

NGL -- I'm miffed that Roy and Walt are still alive, especially with Dean's, "No hard feelings." The cold open to DSotM is still my favorite episode opening into the title card ever on this show, and I'm annoyed that we never got the promised payoff.

[AwesomO4000]

4 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Compared to hunters funeral ep where it was clear that both had stories told about them by other hunters, this was an epic fail for me. I would have prefered to have him start earlier with the Mary stuff then and not be in this scene. At least then there would have been a reason why he didn`t address the other hunters or was presented as co-leader. But being there and playing the same role as Roy and Walt? Fuck no.   

Whereas I think that would've been kind of awkward. Sam and Dean are going to lead us - good! ... oh by the way, about that... I'm not gonna go, but I'm sure Sam will do just fine! ...Oh wait, you're not going? But what about the rousing you'll both lead us stuff? So you're sure just Sam can do it?

In my opinion: awkward.

Now was the way the speech was written already awkward? Yes, I think it was, but based on Sam's "story" this season, I wasn't surprised. The writers pretty much blew the good stuff on Dean and Mary's scene. Apparently that Sam's arc didn't make as much sense as to what he supposedly learned - or even if he actually had to learn it in the first place - wasn't as important to them. Sam was wrong and now he's "better" because he's acting more like Dean... we're done here. The end.

3 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I was specifically talking about his choice to stay behind though. Still don't like Sam's speech at. all., but I get why Dean would let him do that.

Exactly, because not only did Dean likely think Sam needed that, but as I said: potentially awkward.

3 hours ago, Idahoforspn said:

They blew it big-time! And it would have taken so little to fix that scene!

Warning: my opinion only here.

"And yet they just didn't care" (TM Mystery Science Theater 3000). But in my opinion, it had less to do with Dean and more to do with that Sam's arc already made little sense, so they maybe just wanted to get it over with?

And yes, I'm being a little snarky here, because despite little things here and there that, yes, could have, maybe, been changed... in my opinion (I'm stressing that), Dean got the main emotional punch and focus of this episode. He was the one who got to save both Sam and Mary - his family - and that is, in my opinion, the thing that this show holds most important over everything else. Dean got the well written, in character, emotional speech that saved his mother. Sam got the "I was wrong (and an idiot), but please follow me anyway" speech that made little sense to a bunch of hunters who were already angry and to whom likely "let's not wait to get killed" would've worked to get them motivated. In other words - it didn't have much impact or meaning in the long run. For me, I guess I'm just not getting how Dean is the one who got the short end of the stick here.

Just my opinion on that one.

[auntvi]

14 minutes ago, rue721 said:

And I have definitely gotten the sense this season that Sam has no idea what a mother/son relationship feels like or even really looks like, that he's just flying blind when it comes to anything having to do with Mary.

The only time we see how Sam's imagines Mary is in Season 4, when he's going through demon blood withdrawal. In his hallucination, she reassures him that he's strong and right and she also comforts him with her touch for a few seconds, which Sam seems to crave.

[MysteryGuest]

33 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Sam was equally an adult making choices that led to the events Dean described. Noone forced him to drink Ruby`s and other demon`s blood in Season 4. So that doesn`t fly for me as differently than what happened to Dean. Either it all harkens back to Mary or nothing does. 

But Sam had demon blood in him, and Dean did not.  That's the major difference.  While I suppose Sam could have chosen differently, he and Dean were not on an even playing field.  The cards were a bit stacked against Sam.  

[gonzosgirrl]

Macbeth:

Quote

And then the producers should have acknowledged that Crowley had really died so that proper respect could be shown to Mark Sheppard.  He has more than earned it.

This, more than anything. I am also of the mind that Crowley's death is going to stick, and I hate that Mark Sheppard isn't getting the love he deserves for a fantastic role. I hate what they did with Crowley this season and most of last, but I adore Mark's portrayal of it. He made Crowley the guy you hate to love with his impeccable delivery, and he was one of the few sources of real laughs on the show, often saying what others are only thinking. I will miss him.

[Idahoforspn]

11 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Whereas I think that would've been kind of awkward. Sam and Dean are going to lead us - good! ... oh by the way, about that... I'm not gonna go, but I'm sure Sam will do just fine! ...Oh wait, you're not going? But what about the rousing you'll both lead us stuff? So you're sure just Sam can do it?

In my opinion: awkward.

Now was the way the speech was written already awkward? Yes, I think it was, but based on Sam's "story" this season, I wasn't surprised. The writers pretty much blew the good stuff on Dean and Mary's scene. Apparently that Sam's arc didn't make as much sense as to what he supposedly learned - or even if he actually had to learn it in the first place - wasn't as important to them. Sam was wrong and now he's "better" because he's acting more like Dean... we're done here. The end.

Exactly, because not only did Dean likely think Sam needed that, but as I said: potentially awkward.

Warning: my opinion only here.

"And yet they just didn't care" (TM Mystery Science Theater 3000). But in my opinion, it had less to do with Dean and more to do with that Sam's arc already made little sense, so they maybe just wanted to get it over with?

And yes, I'm being a little snarky here, because despite little things here and there that, yes, could have, maybe, been changed... in my opinion (I'm stressing that), Dean got the main emotional punch and focus of this episode. He was the one who got to save both Sam and Mary - his family - and that is, in my opinion, the thing that this show holds most important over everything else. Dean got the well written, in character, emotional speech that saved his mother. Sam got the "I was wrong (and an idiot), but please follow me anyway" speech that made little sense to a bunch of hunters who were already angry and to whom likely "let's not wait to get killed" would've worked to get them motivated. In other words - it didn't have much impact or meaning in the long run. For me, I guess I'm just not getting how Dean is the one who got the short end of the stick here.

Just my opinion on that one.

 Dabb said Dean got a really good part and Sam got the shining moment. They thought, again, IMO that what they were writing was THE big hero shining moment of the episode. Jensen's acting just messed up their plan.

Edited May 20, 2017 by Idahoforspn

[sarthaz]

1 hour ago, Macbeth said:

It should never make sense that Crowley no longer wanted to be king of hell - but Mark sold it.  He sold the idea that as the greatest salesman ever - Crowley sold himself a lemon.  So his sacrifice feels very real.

I totally buy it.  Crowley has hated his job for years, even before almost becoming human and bromancing with Demon!Dean.  To him, clawing his way to the top was the joy.  Actually being there made his skin crawl.  Think of all the times we've seen him falling asleep or rolling his eyes at the monotony and paperwork of ruling Hell.  The only real joy he seemed to find was when he got to go back to basics and craft a nightmare contract like he did with Dick Roman.  There's a reason he always jumped right in when Moose or Not Moose called, because whatever they were doing was so much more interesting than what he was.

[rue721]

9 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Whereas I think that would've been kind of awkward. Sam and Dean are going to lead us - good! ... oh by the way, about that... I'm not gonna go, but I'm sure Sam will do just fine! ...Oh wait, you're not going? But what about the rousing you'll both lead us stuff? So you're sure just Sam can do it?

In my opinion: awkward.

This is so hilarious that I almost wish they had done it.

ETA:  imagine all the gossip about why Dean wasn't going.

Hunter A:  "Yeah, and he was sitting there the whole time all stonefaced and then he dipped out!"

Hunter B:  "Oh shit is this an ambush?"

LOL

Edited May 20, 2017 by rue721

[Katy M]

2 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

totally buy it.  Crowley has hated his job for years, even before almost becoming human and bromancing with Demon!Dean.

He complained about it to Bobby way back in Weekend at Bobby's and he'd had the job less than a year at that point.  So, yeah, I could buy it, too.  I think he liked the idea of power and admiration, but not so much the actual responsibility that went with it.

[MysteryGuest]

1 minute ago, Idahoforspn said:

I could almost agree with you except Dabb said Dean got a really good part and Sam got the shining moment. They thought, again, IMO that what they were writing was THE big hero shining moment of the episode. Jensen's acting just messed up their plan.

My number one rule of thumb is to never listen to what Dabb has to say.  I swear he doesn't watch his own show.    With that being said, I don't think we're ever going to agree on some of these things.  We just have completely different perspectives.  And it's not even the usual Sam vs. Dean stuff, because I am a Dean girl and I found Dean's part in the episode to be exactly what I'd been hoping for, and what had been missing from a good many episodes this season.  

[sarthaz]

15 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

That was my assumption. John died in her arms like we saw in canon but she didn't make a deal so he stayed dead and they never married.

Yeah, I think the point of this AU was to redeem Mary.  Dean gives this big speech (wonderfully btw) about hating her for making the deal and damning their family, but we're shown the true scope of her choices.  Here's your world where Mary doesn't make a deal with Azazel.  How you like them apples?

[AwesomO4000]

18 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

I could almost agree with you except Dabb said Dean got a really good part and Sam got the shining moment. They thought, again, IMO that what they were writing was THE big hero shining moment of the episode. Jensen's acting just messed up their plan.

Writers have in the past also implied that Sam's actions in season 8 were "mature." I don't generally believe what they are trying to sell. How is someone admitting they are wrong - and stupid, in great detail - but please let me do better supposed to be a big, hero, shining moment? Then on the actual raid, it was Jody who killed the big bad. Not that I mind - I actually liked that - but I kind of fail to see how this is a big, shining hero moment for Sam rather than all of the hunters. Your miles may vary.

And I agree that Jensen's acting was great, but that scene with Mary - in my opinion - was written much better than the Sam scene with the hunters. It was in character and it directly caused the saving of someone at great emotional cost to Dean himself. I'm sorry, but for me, the effort put into that versus Sam's scene definitely showed.

Again your miles may vary.

Edited to add:

Or what @MysteryGuest said better than I did.

Edited May 20, 2017 by AwesomO4000

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, Macbeth said:

m this episode alone you had the following quotes - "You big, beautiful, lumbering piles of flannel."  "Is this what you do when I am not here - type?"  And of course - our last "Moose."

We didn't get a "squirrel" yet...so hope springs eternal that maybe he's not really dead? If he is, I'm thinking maybe we'll get Alt!Crowley instead.

[DittyDotDot]

17 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

I totally buy it.  Crowley has hated his job for years, even before almost becoming human and bromancing with Demon!Dean.  To him, clawing his way to the top was the joy.  Actually being there made his skin crawl.  Think of all the times we've seen him falling asleep or rolling his eyes at the monotony and paperwork of ruling Hell.  The only real joy he seemed to find was when he got to go back to basics and craft a nightmare contract like he did with Dick Roman.  There's a reason he always jumped right in when Moose or Not Moose called, because whatever they were doing was so much more interesting than what he was.

Yeah, I immediately started hearing his little monologue in Weekend at Bobby's: 

Mate. You... have no idea. I thought… when I got the corner office…I thought it was all going to be rainbows and two-headed puppies. But, if I'm being honest, it's been hell.

2 hours ago, Macbeth said:

You have 23 episodes a season.  Crowley was a major player for what 9 seasons - on a show whose call list is never that long.  His death should have been the main and only story of episode 22.  And then the producers should have acknowledged that Crowley had really died so that proper respect could be shown to Mark Sheppard.  He has more than earned it.

This is the main reason I don't think any of the deaths will stick. Crowley seems the most believable, but he didn't get a proper send off like most long-lived characters and actors would and it feels like they're trying a bit too hard to convince me. Makes me feel like I did when I was a kid and my older siblings would convince me the electric fence was off and I should touch it... . 

Cass's death was just tacked on at the end, so...?

I'd be disappointed if they killed her off like that off screen, but Rowena I could buy simply because she was newer to the show. But I still don't even buy that one. 

I don't know, maybe they're trying too hard on purpose, though... ;)

Edited May 20, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Idahoforspn]

1 minute ago, MysteryGuest said:

My number one rule of thumb is to never listen to what Dabb has to say.  I swear he doesn't watch his own show.    With that being said, I don't think we're ever going to agree on some of these things.  We just have completely different perspectives.  And it's not even the usual Sam vs. Dean stuff, because I am a Dean girl and I found Dean's part in the episode to be exactly what I'd been hoping for, and what had been missing from a good many episodes this season.  

I don't think I've complained much about Dean's speech. Would I have liked it to be less about Sam and Dean failing him? Yes. Do I think Dean ended up with the best scenes of the show? Absolutely! Do I think that's what the showrunner intended? Absolutely NOT!. When they give Sam speeches like this or have guest stars profusely praising, it ends up being kind of ridiculous and more of an eyeroll than a yeah Sam. IMO, when the showrunner is telling you what the showrunner intended, I can complain about his bias and how it affects my favorite character.

[Katy M]

2 hours ago, Macbeth said:

You have 23 episodes a season.  Crowley was a major player for what 9 seasons - on a show whose call list is never that long.  His death should have been the main and only story of episode 22.  And then the producers should have acknowledged that Crowley had really died so that proper respect could be shown to Mark Sheppard.  He has more than earned it.

Crowley was in 8 seasons, but he was only in 3 epis in Season 5, so I'd hardly call that a major player.  He was in 5 episodes in season 7, and tow of those he was only in one scene.  But, my main point is, main character or not, he's a bad guy.  You don't dedicate a whole episode a la Death's Door to a bad guy.  I think we all agree that Mark Shepard is great and deserves respect.  I just don't agree that his death needed to encompass an entire episode in order to do that.

Actually, I would have preferred Sam or Dean killing him, because I've never liked the idea of a "good" demon since I was burned so thoroughly by Ruby.  But, I'll take what I can get.  He's directly responsible for the deaths of Tommy and Sarah.  He kidnapped Lisa and Ben and if Cas hadn't saved her, would have been responsible for her death also.  Cas may have been the one to actually let the leviathans out, but that was all Crowley's brainchild. He kept Lucifer from getting locked away again, on purpose, for petty reasons.  He's done way too much bad to be redeemed just because he's helpful once in a while and up until this episode or maybe season, only because his own needs coincide.

Edited May 20, 2017 by Katy M

[Aeryn13]

He has been with the show for 8 years, though. That`s a lot longer than even most leads get on other show because they don`t last that long. Equally Rowena had had a significant presence. Killing them both off, one offscreen like an afterthought and one in a "btw, next scene" feels kinda disrespectful to me. Even for bad guys. 

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Crowley was in 8 seasons, but he was only in 3 epis in Season 5, so I'd hardly call that a major player.  He was in 5 episodes in season 7, and tow of those he was only in one scene.  But, my main point is, main character or not, he's a bad guy.  You don't dedicate a whole episode a la Death's Door to a bad guy.  I think we all agree that Mark Shepard is great and deserves respect.  I just don't agree that his death needed to encompass an entire episode in order to do that.

Crowley, despite being a bad guy he is a beloved character whether it's love him or love to hate him. Regardless of the number of episodes he's been in, he's been critical to the boys journeys and Cas'. He's been there to both help them and screw them over as he sees fit. He deserves a great episode and a great death. Now I would have much preferred he had some more time to explain his connection to the BMOL and his motives for killing himself here, but if this is the end he went out on his own terms, which is very Crowley.

That said, I don't think Crowley is really dead.  It was shown that the angel blade didn't do anything to Lucifer in the AU nor the angel killing bullets (which really? Dean isn't going to double tap Lucifer with a head shot. I see your contrivance show). So I'm thinking maybe Crowley's angel blade didn't work on him but is near death, but not really most sincerely dead in the AU and Alt!Rowena shows up to save him.    

[RulerofallIsurvey]

2 hours ago, rue721 said:

But I did think it was interesting that what initially set him off was when she said that she'd always protect him (Dean). I don't think that when he first said he hated her, that that was tactical and about getting her to respond a certain way. Or at least not purely tactical. I think he meant it, and her telling kid!Dean that she'd always protect him actually did get under his skin.

<snip>

I felt like there was an implication that she was supposed to protect him from John, since John was apparently pretty good at protecting them from outsiders (whether assholes at CBGB or legit monsters). But also the thing of Toni saying that John was prone to "drunken rages" also stuck in my mind, maybe more than it was supposed to.

I guess what I am most curious about, from a character perspective, is what about Mary's failure to fulfill her promise to protect him set Dean off? 

I thought what bothered him most about her promise to LittleDean to protect him was that this was AFTER her deal with Azazel.  She knew that a demon was coming back soon - for what she didn't know, but she knew he wanted in her house - and she did NOTHING about it.  She didn't prepare any of them. she didn't warn John or ward the house.  And while Mary didn't remember the events of when (can't remember the ep?) Anna went back in time to try to kill them, Dean did.  In that episode, John found out (even though he also didn't remember later) about the Supernatural and how Mary was a hunter.  And while John was rightly angry that Mary hadn't told him, he also dove right in and helped out in any way he could to protect his family.  Dean already knew that's how John would have reacted if Mary had been honest.  So Mary's "I will always protect you"?  At that moment, Imo, Dean had to be thinking "Bullshit.  You didn't."  And that's why the "I hate you."

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

Dean was just effected by Mary's deal equally but those the ways they were not even remotely the same.  

I disagree that they are affected by Mary's deal equally.  Dean was not infected with Demon blood.  He was never "an abomination" (as said by An Angel of the Lord, no less.)  He was never feared that he would turn evil by their own father.  Yes, he was tasked with killing Sam if he couldn't save him - but that never would have happened if Sam hadn't been infected with demon blood in the first place as a result of Mary's deal - and Sam would have been infected with demon blood even if Mary had lived through that night.

And what @MysteryGuest and @ahrtee said.

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

What I would have liked is having *SAM* stand up for Dean the way Dean did for him, and tell Mary the hard truths about the effect her choices had on Dean.  But they just didn't have the time to do that at this point in the story.

I would have loved it if at any time during the season Sam and Mary could have had a quiet talk, maybe late at night (having Sam finding her crying while reading John's journal, maybe) where Mary would have asked Sam "was it really that bad?" and Sam would have probably downplayed his own hurts but told her all about what Dean had gone through.

I would like to see that also.  I realize that couldn't have happened this season/ep for the reasons you listed, but I'm hoping that we'll still get a scene like that next season.

1 hour ago, RandomMe said:

I will say that, even in the moment of him focusing on what Mary's actions had cost Sam, what made me feel that was not all about Sam was Dean's plea at the end. Sure, he forgave Mary, but he needed her to see HIM. She had to be willing to look at the adult Dean, the reality of who he was, that was not who she may have hoped he would be, or promised him he would be, or wanted to pretend in her mind that he would be, but who he actually is. To see HIM. 

Good point!  I loved that part.  It was so powerful!

[Wayward Son]

Have Angel blades ever worked on Lucifer? It's been a while since I've rewatched season five, but I thought the archangels had seperate blades and it was only an Archangel blade capable of killing them? 

In regards to the manner of Crowley's death. I must admit I'm not a Crowley centric fans so I may not pick up things the way one of them would, but I personally thought he got the best death of the episode. He got to go out on his own terms, his death had an actual purpose, and while yes he had his own motives, his death was heroic as he chose to die rather than attempt to sacrifice anyone else. All I can say is that I would have loved a death like that for Castiel. 

[ILoveReading]

19 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I disagree that they are affected by Mary's deal equally.  Dean was not infected with Demon blood.  He was never "an abomination" (as said by An Angel of the Lord, no less.)  He was never feared that he would turn evil by their own father.  Yes, he was tasked with killing Sam if he couldn't save him - but that never would have happened if Sam hadn't been infected with demon blood in the first place as a result of Mary's deal - and Sam would have been infected with demon blood even if Mary had lived through that night.

But Dean was turned into a blunt little instrument and a solider by John and tasked with might having to kill his brother who he spent his whole left protecting.  Dean spent his life thinking his he was worthless.  Looking into the mirror and hating what he sees.  Not to mention all the references to Dean thinking he was good for nothing but slitting throats.

Just because Dean wasn't physically effected didn't mean that Mary's deal didn't impact how Dean thought about himself and how he felt others see him.

Yes, Sam got a bum Dean and being infected with demon blood affected the way he felt about himself and how others might see him, but the demon blood didn't take away his ability to make choices for himself.  The demon blood colored his judgment, but it didn't make him do things.   It didn't automatically make him evil.   That's why I felt he Sam showed mercy and didn't kill Jake.

Despite others thinking he was an abomination doesn't actually mean he was one. 

So I do think they were equally effected, just in different ways.  We can agree to disagree.

Edited May 20, 2017 by ILoveReading

[MysteryGuest]

1 hour ago, Idahoforspn said:

I don't think I've complained much about Dean's speech. Would I have liked it to be less about Sam and Dean failing him? Yes. Do I think Dean ended up with the best scenes of the show? Absolutely! Do I think that's what the showrunner intended? Absolutely NOT!. When they give Sam speeches like this or have guest stars profusely praising, it ends up being kind of ridiculous and more of an eyeroll than a yeah Sam. IMO, when the showrunner is telling you what the showrunner intended, I can complain about his bias and how it affects my favorite character.

IdahoforSPN, I didn't mean to imply that you had complained about Dean's speech.  Even though I used your quote, I was pretty much just commenting on the general theme of this thread.  My opinion is absolutely no more valid than yours, and I apologize if that's how I came across.

[catrox14]

Mary's deal directly affected Dean because she did not adhere to the terms of the agreement which was "Don't come into the room".  Dean was traumatized for the rest of his life because he watched his mother burn to death in that house.

[Katy M]

27 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

That said, I don't think Crowley is really dead.  It was shown that the angel blade didn't do anything to Lucifer in the AU nor the angel killing bullets (which really? Dean isn't going to double tap Lucifer with a head shot. I see your contrivance show). So I'm thinking maybe Crowley's angel blade didn't work on him but is near death, but not really most sincerely dead in the AU and Alt!Rowena shows up to save him.    

Didn't he spark, or whatever, though, the way demons do when they really die instead of just fake die because they snuck out of their meatsuit without Lucifer either noticing the smoke going out, or noticing the empty vessel even though he's totally capable of seeing past the skin.

 

26 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

In regards to the manner of Crowley's death. I must admit I'm not a Crowley centric fans so I may not pick up things the way one of them would, but I personally thought he got the best death of the episode. He got to go out on his own terms, his death had an actual purpose, and while yes he had his own motives, his death was heroic as he chose to die rather than attempt to sacrifice anyone else. All I can say is that I would have loved a death like that for Castiel. 

Yes, he actually did get a good death.  He got to give a mini speech about how he's not happy with his life. He chose his own manner of death that he doubled (though perhaps not successfully) with a screw you to Lucifer.  I think he's dead dead.  And, I thought he got a good death.  I don't think he needed the whole episode for his death, is all I'm saying.  Especially since he has fake died so many times.  OK, maybe only twice and it seems like more.  Wait, make that 3 times.

[Idahoforspn]

This is all IMO so be prepared.

When the show first began, Sam was THE lead. Dean was basically the sidekick. Dean ended up being very popular so Jensen was made co-lead beginning season two. With Gamble, Carver, and especially with Dabb, it seems they are trying to go back to the season one roles. They seem to think, IMO, that Sam is the main star and not a co-lead.  They just don't know how to execute this on screen so it works for the fans. For example, under Carver, the not looking for Dean was the mature thing and I think Carver really thought the Sam/Amelia story was going to be the popular storyline. They needed to get rid of Dean for a while to set it up so they sent him to purgatory. Big surprise for them was the not looking for Dean was detested, Amelia was a flop and Purgatory was a hit. We still lost purgatory way to soon but I think Carver learned a bit of a lesson and started to balance things more.  And now we have Dabb who doesn't seem to be learning. Dabb is stillbtrying to give us hero Sam can do it all moments and to move Dean back into more of the sidekick role.  But the execution, like we saw this week, fails. IMO, Dabb just doesnt understand the mindset of the fans and how the writing will be received. They THINK they are making Sam look good but it ends up being over the top IMO and turns some fans off. If you have to have Dean and multiple guest stars multiple times TELL us Sam is a hero and Sam is smart and Sam is whatever, there is something wrong with the writing. I personally think the writing for Sam, instead of making him the hero LIKE THEY INTEND, makes him not look so good. I am not happy about that by the way. I think the writing for Sam has been pretty bad, the speech being the latest. It is just in a different bad way than the writing for Dean.  IMO, if they would just SHOW us two brothers who are both heroes, most of the fans would be happy and there wouldn't be all this fan frustration. I know I don't want Sam's writing sacrificed for Dean and I REALLY don't want Deans writing sacrificed for Sam. Just want a nice balance for TWO heroes who are co-leads. So basically, IMO, the writers and showrunner have unintentionally screwed both Sam and Dean and don't seem to be figuring it out.

7 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

IdahoforSPN, I didn't mean to imply that you had complained about Dean's speech.  Even though I used your quote, I was pretty much just commenting on the general theme of this thread.  My opinion is absolutely no more valid than yours, and I apologize if that's how I came across.

No problems. I enjoy your thoughts. It's good to hear what others think. Shows me a perspective I might never have seen.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Didn't he spark, or whatever, though, the way demons do when they really die instead of just fake die because they snuck out of their meatsuit without Lucifer either noticing the smoke going out, or noticing the empty vessel even though he's totally capable of seeing past the skin.

He sparked but it's in a different universe. Who's to say it actually took?

[catrox14]

32 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Have Angel blades ever worked on Lucifer? It's been a while since I've rewatched season five, but I thought the archangels had seperate blades and it was only an Archangel blade capable of killing them? 

I can't remember. I'll have to research it, but your comment makes me think that if that is the case it raises the odds that that it was AU!Cas that tried to kill Lucifer and was killed by Lucifer because OUR!Cas would not have tried to kill Lucifer with an angel blade.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

24 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

But Dean was turned into a blunt little instrument and a solider by John and tasked with might having to kill his brother who he spent his whole left protecting.  Dean spent his life thinking his he was worthless.  Looking into the mirror and hating what he sees.  Not to mention all the references to Dean thinking he was good for nothing but slitting throats.

Just because Dean wasn't physically effected didn't mean that Mary's deal didn't impact how Dean thought about himself and how he felt others see him.

Yes, Sam got a bum Dean and being infected with demon blood affected the way he felt about himself and how others might see him, but the demon blood didn't take away his ability to make choices for himself.**  The demon blood colored his judgment, but it didn't make him do things.   It didn't automatically make him evil.   That's why I felt he Sam showed mercy and didn't kill Jake.

Despite others thinking he was an abomination doesn't actually mean he was one. *

So I do think they were equally effected, just in different ways.  We can agree to disagree.

I could take everything you said and turn it around back on Dean too.  

For example: "Dean spent his whole life thinking he was worthless."  *Well, despite others thinking he was worthless and just a killer and a blunt little instrument doesn't mean he actually was one.

**John tasking Dean with killing Sam if he couldn't save him didn't take away his ability to make choices for himself.  (Unlike Sam not having a choice about his psychic visions which made John fear him even more.) John's upbringing might have colored Dean's judgement, but it didn't make him do things.  

So no, IMO - they were not equally affected.  While neither of them had a choice in how they were raised, Sam especially had no choice in what he was.

Edited May 20, 2017 by RulerofallIsurvey

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

So no, IMO - they were not equally affected.  While neither of them had a choice in how they were raised, Sam especially had no choice in what he was.

 

I think I didn't get my point across.  I never meant that Mary's deal made Dean those things just that they affected how he perceived himself.  Dean's self image was molded as much by the effects of Mary's deal as Sam's.   Its the same way Demon Blood didn't actually make Sam an abomination.

I very much disagree Sam did have a choice in what he was.  It's like a child of a serial killer.  They might be tainted with those genes but that doesn't mean that person will automatically grow up to be one. 

[Reganne]

28 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

 

Yes, Sam got a bum Dean and being infected with demon blood affected the way he felt about himself and how others might see him, but the demon blood didn't take away his ability to make choices for himself.  The demon blood colored his judgment, but it didn't make him do things.   It didn't automatically make him evil.   That's why I felt he Sam showed mercy and didn't kill Jake.

Despite others thinking he was an abomination doesn't actually mean he was one. 

So I do think they were equally effected, just in different ways.  We can agree to disagree.

Sam's choice for his life was to go to college and possibly spend his life with Jessica.  It was taken away from him bc Azazel wanted him to increase his fighting abilities and be on the rode with Dean.  His life was surrounded and manipulated by demons... even though he may not have known it at the time.  Sam also didn't choose to be in Azazels Hunger Games.  These were all results of the demon blood., and happened regardless of what Sam chose.  Sam didn't have any choice in these matters.

Yes, he didn't have to drink demon blood or allow himself to be manipulated to kill Lilith.  Those were choices that may or may not have been clouded by demon blood.  However if he never had the demon blood in the first place, he wouldn't have had the addiction or the manipulations coming from the angels and demons alike.  It is most likely that the demons especially would have continued to surround his life regardless of his choices though as they would most likely persist in trying to free Lucifer from hell.

[Idahoforspn]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

Killing them both off, one offscreen like an afterthought and one in a "btw, next scene" feels kinda disrespectful to me. Even for bad guys. 

This!

[rue721]

7 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

And while John was rightly angry that Mary hadn't told him, he also dove right in and helped out in any way he could to protect his family.  Dean already knew that's how John would have reacted if Mary had been honest.  So Mary's "I will always protect you"?  At that moment, Imo, Dean had to be thinking "Bullshit.  You didn't."  And that's why the "I hate you."

I agree overall, but to me, it seemed like Dean's issue with Mary wasn't so much about the deal in general, it was for the most part specifically about her death, and the consequences they suffered because she was gone. The deal was salient in that it pushed them into the hunting life, but aside from that, IMO a lot of what he was saying would have been pretty similar if she had just died or left for any reason, not specifically due to the deal.

What I think is interesting is that he makes it really clear in that speech that without her specifically to protect him, he hadn't felt protected, and he also says flat out that he'd been both father and mother to Sam. That's throwing some major shade at John IMO. Like, if John was protecting Dean from monsters more or less successfully, what was he not protecting him from? I can think of options, but it would be interesting to know what Dean is supposed to be thinking there. Like, is he thinking, from responsibilities? From growing up too fast? From John himself? Regardless, it seems like he's thinking of regular-world stuff, not monster stuff, there. And Sam actually was (ostensibly) brought up by John as much as Dean was, so what does Dean mean about being both father and mother to him? Again, I can think of reasons that *I* would say Dean was a father to Sam, but my interest is really piqued as to why Dean himself would choose to say that.

I feel like Dean has been skirting around spilling to Mary about John all season. When she first got back she was asking about John and talking him up as such a great father, and Dean was really noncommittal and didn't really say anything positive. Then, they all avoided the topic all season. Not even a mention of where he might be now, should they try to track him down, did she leave the real John in heaven, etc. Which I thought was interesting also in regards to Dean in particular, because he's the one who brought up Mary and John as a couple right when Mary first returned, and he's also the one who (IMO) would likely realize that if Mary is waxing poetic about John and is in mourning for him, then the quickest/easiest way to bond with her would be to bond over him -- yet Dean chose not to do that. He chose to avoid the topic pretty much completely. Then last week, Toni mentions drunken rages and Mary looks shocked, and then nothing. Toni was full of horseshit so I'm agnostic as to how truthful anything she said happened to be, but it was still a bomb to drop. Why in the world would she choose to drop that particular bomb? And then, from time to time, Dean just quietly, subtly dismisses John as a parent to either himself or to Sam, by making statements like, he (Dean) didn't have a childhood, he was a father to Sam, etc.

Anyway, I guess what I'm really curious about is:  is Dean specifically choosing not to discuss John openly? And if so, why? And if he is skirting the subject, what exactly is he trying not to say? If I were Mary, I would be poking at that so hard. Like, what the fuck happened to John when she died? But Mary seems to like to get and give the truth in little tiny drips and drabs, so I'm not surprised that she hasn't poked around about that much yet. Hmmm anyway, just curious. Maybe this season was about Mary reconciling with her sons and next season will be about her reconciling with John, or the memory of John.

Sorry, I don't mean to harp, I just always feel like John is the elephant in the room whenever the Winchesters discuss themselves as a family (like in the scene between Mary and Dean in Mary's head).

[SueB]

Finally got a proper second watch of 12.22 "Who We Are" in (versus snippets). See Bottom Line for the TL;DR.

Overall summary: THIS WAS F*CKING EPIC. It took on two series-long emotional issues and one season issue and handled them well IMO. This is my opinion, not 'statement of fact'. I don't expect anyone else to hold these views.

Series Issue 1: The parentification of Dean Winchester
I could write a PhD on this but Dean acknowledging that John became a shell of a man and he had to be both father and mother was EPIC.  It's been building all series. Dean became father and mother the MOMENT Sam was thrust into his arms**. One of the FIRST things you learn about death of a parent at a young age, is that most children can NEVER express anger towards the dead parent.  I don't think even DEAN knew he hated Mary until the moment he was triggered to say it.  And he was triggered by her willfully ignoring that her deal was going to come due.  I think he had already rationalized the deal to some extent because he had made them.  But to see Mary promise his younger self that he would be safe, when she KNEW better. THAT is what caused the surge of hate to manifest and him to express it.  Psychiatrists will tell you that the only way past something is THRU it.  I don't know if Dean would have ever been able to confront his hatred towards Mary without her resurrection. So, Amara DID do him a favor.  Even better, while Dean STILL holds onto the pain of seeing Sam be hurt, he CORRECTLY laid it at Mary's feet.  That's a f*cking revelation. Dean is going to be able to heal some after this.  But it's PRECISELY because he understands the instinct to protect that he can forgive Mary. First, he realizes he is helpless in loving her. Cause she's Mom. His emotional attachment was truncated at such an early age, the love he feels is going to always stay (to a large extent) at that instinctual, unconditional level. Second, he's made those same deals for the ones HE loves and understands like no one else could. So... he hates her, he loves her, he forgives her.  POWERFUL because of the multi-layered truths it contains.
But Dean's parentification was NOT just about saving Mary.  Dean was STILL in "parent" mode with Sam this episode.  Not like parent to child/teen/young adult.  He was being parent to a grown man.  Still.  He was in the mode of helping Sam get over his own issues.  And that meant stepping back and having faith in Sam.  Dean's relationship with Sam this year is so much better because he's learned to trust that Sam will be OKAY.  That he, Dean, has done his job and Sam has grown into not just a good man, but a great man.  No, Dean didn't want to work with the BMoL but Sam did and he accepted Sam's judgement.  But when it went so obviously south, he let Sam work out his anger/disappointment. He didn't coddle him.  And the one remaining "parental" thing he could do for Sam, in this moment, is to let him personally lead the "fix" to what went wrong.  So he stood by his side when the hunter's arrived, and then he took a seat and let Sam do all the talking.  Because Sam HAD this.  And what Sam needed most from Dean was Dean's COMPLETE CONFIDENCE.  And that's what Dean gave him.  As his "parent", Dean knew that self-doubt was still an issue for Sam when a mistake was made. He wanted Sam to get the win.  Dean's a f*cking awesome parent to his adult brother. He's helping him get over a deep-seeded issue.  He put aside his own worries and just let whatever happen happen. That's f*cking HARD to do.  But Dean did that. 

**Parental bias: A few years back, Jensen described parenthood as not a "shift in gears" but actually getting out of one car and getting into another that you do not know how to drive.  I've always felt Dean took ownership (like a parent does) for Sam. And as a parent myself, I've never questioned putting the needs of my children above myself. When they are so tiny -- it's an EXTREMELY powerful instinct and you can't even REMEMBER your priorities after that moment. If this had happened after Sam was walking and talking, it would not have been the same.  Please note, not every parent feels the unconditional love instinct towards there children as powerfully as I do. Many may even think it's not healthy for you as the parent.  My take: yeah, nope. Logically I get that, but I'm wired to protect. Which is why I relate to Dean so much on this topic. 

Series Issue #2: Sam accepting that making a mistake does not make him shit.  (i.e. the difference between shame and guilt) 
This is another series-level issue that was addressed. And I can see where it feels like we've addressed this before, but THIS time Sam is not just risking HIS life but the lives of others to correct a mistake he feels he at least partially owns. In the early seasons, Sam had more confidence. But some of that was driven by his inner SERIOUS rage and youth.  Then he has a series of 'risk the planet' mis-steps that were eventually recovered but done so with the help of Dean.  One of the most heart-breaking moments is in S9 in "Rock and a Hard Place" is when Sam just wonders if he is intrinsically flawed. Sam feels not just GUILT for things, but shame.  Guilt is remorse over specific actions. Shame is a sense of BEING wrong.  Sam buries that shame very well UNTIL he makes a mistake where others get hurt because of his mistake.  Then the shame comes out in spades and Sam internalizes (wrongly) all the responsibility for what happened. In this case, in Sam's mind, all those hunters are dead because HE went along with the BMoL.  Now this is BULLSHIT twisted thinking, but you could hear the shame in Sam's voice. It's what he internalizes.  Don't get me wrong -- Sam has been down this path before and he KNOWS better.  But he needs a few more wins under HIS belt before he let's go of that shame reflex completely.  And the best way to do that is to fix the mistake using his own judgement.  He had all the skill required to do this and he could do it with help. But it was MUCH better for Sam to do it without Dean.  For HIM to be the one leading the effort.  He did have Jody as a backup but Sam made the decisions.  
And this was MOST evident when, after ripping through the BMoL pretty effectively, Hess throws out Lucifer's picture.  And IMO Jared did an excellent job of showing that as yet another shame body-blow. See, in Sam's "REFLEX" MIND, it was Sam who insisted they go and talk to Luci. Sam who got trapped by Luci and had to be rescued by Dean/Cas. So in Sam's MIND, Lucifer out of the cage is his fault. THIS IS TWISTED THINKING. There's a whole village involved in how we got to the point where Luci was walking down those stairs.  So Sam takes the emotional body blow of another 'mistake' out here haunting him, hears the patronizing BMoL son of a bitch offer help, and rightly rejects it.  I totally expected him to "pass" but I was thrilled to see him realize that he's not going to make a bad decision to fix a mistake. He doesn't need the BMoL and he literally knocks them out of the equation.   When Sam can completely let go of his instinctual shame response, then this issue will truly be over. But this was another important step in issue resolution. 
Note: while I think they care greatly about this topic, I think the opportunity to really dig into Dean's issues and bring some closure was exceptional.  Sam's issue also had to bear the weight of the episode "action" and there was some muddy dialog that did not make the resolution nearly as crisp. 

Season Issue #1: Mary hiding from the boys
This barely got addressed but we got on the right path. First, we have Dean laying the underlying source of her guilt right at her feet and holding her accountable.  That was important.  Any easy "you did what you had to do" would NOT have been effective. She NEEDED to hear the butcher's tale (Dean's parentification, Sam's tragic life) and be told it's her fault.  But then the second critical step was Dean telling her he forgives her.  And that forgiveness was real and earned, because he had demonstrated he really did empathize with making that kind of a deal. So, she had both punishment (I hate you) and forgiveness.  Third, she owned up to her bad behavior. Her 'hiding while trying to 'fix it'" plan.  And it was wrong and she admitted it.  NOW she and Dean can move on.  So when step four, seek Sam's forgiveness, came she got that with the huge hug. Now, to be honest, there's still work here.  But it was an awesome first start.  

Bottom Line for the TL, DR: Berens/Sgriccia and Jensen/Jared/Samantha created a fantastic episode that dealt with meaty issues in a very satisfying way. Dean's story, in particular, was a jaw-dropping punch in the feels.  The level of sophistication in this episode was great. It has many layers and provided both good storytelling as well satisfying character progress.

Edited May 23, 2017 by SueB
Clarified Episode

[sarthaz]

17 minutes ago, rue721 said:

What I think is interesting is that he makes it really clear in that speech that without her specifically to protect him, he hadn't felt protected, and he also says flat out that he'd been both father and mother to Sam. That's throwing some major shade at John IMO. Like, if John was protecting Dean from monsters more or less successfully, what was he not protecting him from? I can think of options, but it would be interesting to know what Dean is supposed to be thinking there. Like, is he thinking, from responsibilities? From growing up too fast? From John himself? Regardless, it seems like he's thinking of regular-world stuff, not monster stuff, there. And Sam actually was (ostensibly) brought up by John as much as Dean was, so what does Dean mean about being both father and mother to him? Again, I can think of reasons that *I* would say Dean was a father to Sam, but my interest is really piqued as to why Dean himself would choose to say that.

I took the mother/father comment as simply that John wasn't around, physically or emotionally.  We've seen Dean be Sam's only parental figure in many episodes, from cooking him dinner to tucking him in to stealing him Christmas presents when John never showed.  Physically, John was gone for weeks at a time while they were very young, and emotionally, who knows if/when he was ever really present.

[DittyDotDot]

23 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Quote

Sorry but that is simply not the case. He could barely walk.

I'm really not sure what point people are trying to make here or why people are looking further than the obvious. The writers made Dean badly hurt his leg. Hence he couldn't go on the raid, providing a credible in-story reason for what the writers were trying to achieve i.e. Sam taking the lead in defeating the MoL as redemption for deciding to work with them. Dean got the emotional arc in the ep by pulling Mary back from her brainwashing. I am not sure what other meaning it needs to, or could have.

He held his own against Ketch and he drove all the way to Jody's.   He then he helped Mary and Sam research.  He also wasn't sitting in the car when they were calling hunters.  He was walking around.  We saw him walking around his leg plenty. 

He also got Mary and Toni back to the bunker by himself.  The leg couldn't have been that bad.

The reason he didn't go on The Raid was to save his mom.

Sam and Dean have separated on dangerous hunts before.  In Good God Y'all.  Sam was out battling demons, Dean turned back to save the civilians.  So, yes Dean would let Sam go on that raid and stay back to save their mom.  Plus, Mary is very resourceful.  What if Toni got loose or Mary did before Dean got back.  IMO, Dean wouldn't leave Jodi at risk.   Plus, he knew they needed Toni.   Dean probably felt it was urgent.  If they lost Toni, he lost the one chance he had. 

Perhaps the leg injury was an attempt to make the fight between Ketch and Dean later more credible? Because, really, a healthy Dean man-a-mano with Ketch, Dean wins. Hands down. This way it made it a fair fight?

Edited May 20, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Idahoforspn]

8 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

I took the mother/father comment as simply that John wasn't around, physically or emotionally.  We've seen Dean be Sam's only parental figure in many episodes, from cooking him dinner to tucking him in to stealing him Christmas presents when John never showed.  Physically, John was gone for weeks at a time while they were very young, and emotionally, who knows if/when he was ever really present.

But then we've had several episodes lately saying Dean didn't do a good job taking care of Sam. Just My Imagination immediately comes to mind. Show needs to make up its mind.

[Wayward Son]

32 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

I disagree. Dean would not have let Sam go on that Raid without him if he'd been physically able to join in. Saving Mary could've waited. They had both Lady B ad Mary captured.

How did they 'dismiss it as a reason'? Dean said he was too injured to come. No one dismissed it. He could've saved Mary when they got back. There was no urgency. 

I took things a little differently to you, but not in a way that undermines the brothers bond or anything like that IMO. For me the leg injury ultimately made little difference to Dean's decision. I believe Dean genuinely believed in Sam's ability to handle the British Man of Letter's with the help of the other hunters. I don't think he believed Sam to be in any particular danger (by the standards of someone living their lifestyle I mean not for the likes of you and I). So he decided that saving their mum ought to be his main priority. 

I genuinely believe if Dean thought that the operation was a high risk one Sam could not have handled he would have insisted on going leg injury or leg injury. There's just no way Dean would have left Sam to face a situation he deemed high risk without him. 

YMMV of course! I just thought I'd share my thoughts. 

Edited May 20, 2017 by Wayward Son

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, DittyDotDot said:

Perhaps the leg injury was an attempt to make the fight between Ketch and Dean later more credible? Because, really, a healthy Dean man-a-mano with Ketch, Dean wins. Hands down. This way it made it a fair fight?

I could buy this.  As much as I like Ketch, watching Dean punch him was very satisfying.

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, rue721 said:

Sorry, I don't mean to harp, I just always feel like John is the elephant in the room whenever the Winchesters discuss themselves as a family (like in the scene between Mary and Dean in Mary's head).

I would have liked to see a scene where Dean tells Mary about how John's obsession with avenging her death ripped away their childhood and affected their relationship with him. I can understand why he shied away from doing so but she should know exactly what their lives were like. I didn't like that Toni of all people was the one that told Mary about John's failings as a father.

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, Wayward Son said:

I believe Dean genuinely believed in Sam's ability to handle the British Man of Letter's with the help of the other hunters.

I agree with this.  Dean's always had faith in Sam's hunting abilities.  Going back to The Benders.  When Dean was forced to chose who to be hunted, the guy or the girl, he picked the guy.  I always felt it was because he felt Sam had a better chance at survival then Kathleen did. 

[sarthaz]

20 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

But then we've had several episodes lately saying Dean didn't do a good job taking care of Sam. Just My Imagination immediately comes to mind. Show needs to make up its mind.

Well, sure; Dean was a child.  He did the best he could under the circumstances, but there's only so much he could do.

[catrox14]

Dean's leg injury was plotonium to the nth degree. I realize now it was all set up to for Mary to kill Ketch to save Dean and puts Sam in the leader role in the raid.

I really don't care that Dean didn't go on that raid per se.  There was actually a good tactical reason for Dean to stay with Mary even without being injured. If Dean went with Sam on the mission and just left her and Lady SheDeadNow at Jody's house, Ketch would have gone there, killed Lady SheDeadNow and taken Mary for more missions or just kidnap her and hit the road. Either way Mary is still with Ketch and not of her own free will either in killer mode or not.

Were the boys going to drive ALL the way from Jody's house in Sioux Falls, back to the bunker in Lebanon, KS and 3 more hours to the BMOLOL in Lawrence?   If that was the plan then they are terrible soldiers. Were they going to risk both of them dying and being unable to help Mary when they had the chance to help her and go into battle? 

** the BMOLOL was in Wichita not Lawrence. WHOOPS.

Edited May 20, 2017 by catrox14
I really thought SuperWiki at one point at the BMOLOL in Lawrence.

[SueB]

31 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Perhaps the leg injury was an attempt to make the fight between Ketch and Dean later more credible? Because, really, a healthy Dean man-a-mano with Ketch, Dean wins. Hands down. This way it made it a fair fight?

I agree. Ketch hit that knee at LEAST 3 or 4 times.  Plus they had a moment where Dean was looking at Ketch and it was a little bit woozy -- like the drugs in his system were not yet worn off. 

[Katy M]

36 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

But then we've had several episodes lately saying Dean didn't do a good job taking care of Sam. Just My Imagination immediately comes to mind. Show needs to make up its mind.

Dean wasn't a perfect "father" but nobody is.  Dean also had to go where his dad told him.  He was still a kid. So, no, he wasn't going to be perfect, but it doesn't negate the fact that too much parental ability was put on his shoulders at too young an age.

 

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

3 more hours to the BMOLOL in Lawrence?

the BMOLs set up camp in Lawerence?  I didn't realize that.  I can't decide if that's awesome or awful?

[catrox14]

14 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Dean wasn't a perfect "father" but nobody is.  Dean also had to go where his dad told him.  He was still a kid. So, no, he wasn't going to be perfect, but it doesn't negate the fact that too much parental ability was put on his shoulders at too young an age.

 

the BMOLs set up camp in Lawerence?  I didn't realize that.  I can't decide if that's awesome or awful?

Actually, no, I'm wrong. I double checked the wiki it's in Wichita! Whoops. For some reason I thought it was listed on SuperWiki at one point in Lawrence. Well, regardless Wichita is still 3 hrs from the bunker.

Edited May 20, 2017 by catrox14