S04.E21: The Return

[Raja]

1 hour ago, Froippi said:

Yea but Fitz had no choice in dating Aida in the framework either so not sure I agree with letting her down easy cause he did not have choice in dating her to begin with

She said all she did was slide herself next to him at SHIELD Academy, displacing Simmons. He had as much of choice to deny her charms before or after the fall of SHIELD in the framework as he had for falling for another NPC woman like an older Hope.

[nilyank]

Quote

She said all she did was slide herself next to him at SHIELD Academy, displacing Simmons. He had as much of choice to deny her charms before or after the fall of SHIELD in the framework as he had for falling for another NPC woman like an older Hope.

She set up the Framework so that she and not Simmons would be by Fitz's side at the Academy and then had Simmons conveniently dead in that world. Aida has never been trustworthy and everything that she said to Fitz was used to manipulate him into seeing her as his great love.

I had no doubt that Fitz was talking about Simmons about being the one that he loved. He literally jumped into another universe in order to save her.

Aida the android did not know what human emotions were especially love but she knew a prime example was what Fitz and Simmons share for each other. To make herself into a real girl, she wanted real love and she wanted it from Fitz.

[TVSpectator]

10 hours ago, nilyank said:

She set up the Framework so that she and not Simmons would be by Fitz's side at the Academy and then had Simmons conveniently dead in that world. Aida has never been trustworthy and everything that she said to Fitz was used to manipulate him into seeing her as his great love.

I had no doubt that Fitz was talking about Simmons about being the one that he loved. He literally jumped into another universe in order to save her.

Aida the android did not know what human emotions were especially love but she knew a prime example was what Fitz and Simmons share for each other. To make herself into a real girl, she wanted real love and she wanted it from Fitz.

 

All we really know is that Simmons died when Hydra took over and that was after 2008. Nothing really about how they all interacted before 2008 but just that Simmons died and if he did remember meeting AIDA/Ophelia during his academy days (and it was hinted throughout the series that both Fitz and Simmons started in the academy when they were teenagers- like a decade before Coulson assigned them to the Bus) that he probably DID chose her over Simmons. 

[Maelstrom]

So Aida loved Fitz as much as someone like her could love anyone.

OK, Galavant jokes aside, MJ was so impressive in this. I thought she was good on Galavant but she really hit every note of the entire spectrum of human emotions here. And Iain de Caesticker really shone as well. I haven't watched this show regularly since the beginning of the first season, so to see how far the writing for character of Fitz has come is really gratifying.

Robbie!! I've missed you! So happy to see Ghost Rider again before the end of the season.

[Froippi]

idk i still have a hard time trusting Aida and still believe what fitz and simmons share is more real than anything Aida could ever offer Fitz hard to trust someone who manuplated and used Fitz the way she did

Edited May 14, 2017 by Froippi

[Enigma X]

Personally, I think just by setting up that it was she (Aida/Ophelia) alongside Fitz at the Academy and not she alongside May (as a hypothetical) or whomever shows she did manipulate Fitz's situation in regards to her. In fact, her rise to being Madama Hydra was a huge manipulation as how those in the Framework saw her.

I am still on the side in believing in the Butterfly Effect in the real world but am not buying that the man we saw as Fitz's father being inserted in his life would cause the Framework Fitz we got. Yes. Daddy Fitz was an ass, but I have seen worse.

This is not knocking the Framework arc though. I loved it.

[Nalan]

On ‎5‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 0:01 PM, Traveller519 said:

Did Yo-yo interact with Hive? I think given the timeline she was there, but I can't recall if she actually dealt with him.

She helped Mack and Lincoln capture him during last season's finale, so she was definitely in the same scene as he was.

[Lugal]

13 hours ago, Maelstrom said:

So Aida loved Fitz as much as someone like her could love anyone.

Seriously, Mallory has been a sight to behold this season, doing so well making Aida, Agnes, and Ophelia distinct, real characters.

[paigow]

1 hour ago, Lugal said:

 

Seriously, Mallory has been a sight to behold this season, doing so well making Aida, Agnes, and Ophelia distinct, real characters.

Rename the next arc: Agents of Orphan Black 

[TVSpectator]

14 hours ago, Enigma X said:

Personally, I think just by setting up that it was she (Aida/Ophelia) alongside Fitz at the Academy and not she alongside May (as a hypothetical) or whomever shows she did manipulate Fitz's situation in regards to her. In fact, her rise to being Madama Hydra was a huge manipulation as how those in the Framework saw her.

I am still on the side in believing in the Butterfly Effect in the real world but am not buying that the man we saw as Fitz's father being inserted in his life would cause the Framework Fitz we got. Yes. Daddy Fitz was an ass, but I have seen worse.

This is not knocking the Framework arc though. I loved it.

1

Yeah, I can totally buy into the Butterfly Effect idea but what happen to characters like Tony Stark, or Captain America, or Black Widow, or Fury, or Maria Hill, or Thor, or The Hulk, etc...? If the Framework was supposed to be a 100% recreation of the MCU (aka "the real world") then where are those characters and why did they allow Hydra to take over? Fury and Black Widow alone could easily prevent Hydra from taking over, IMO, I really can't understand how Captain America won't be unfrozen nor what would happen to Iron Man, etc...? Are they running some other branch of the resistance or what? Another thing that is hard to believe for me, was that May would be totally fine with Hydra running the US government/world because of an Incident and totally fine working with them and wearing a Hydra uniform, etc...? I mean Hydra is SHIELD's mortal enemy you just don't go working for your mortal enemy even when something bad happens- at least not the main characters. During Dark Reign, we saw Spider-Man totally freaking out bout Osborn running SHIELD and Captain American and Victoria Hand working undercover from within to stop Osborn but here May was totally fine with everything until she saw those kids. I mean once she captures them what was she thinking that Hydra was doing with them in the first place before she saw what they were doing with them?

As with Fitz's father- well a lot of people were assuming that without Simmons that he would've been a bad guy- like his father but to me, that just makes him a very weak willed person. I honestly don't know. Personally, there are some that think that Fitz's father isn't abusive  or isn't as abusive as a lot of people want to think he is/was (and I have heard that Mark Koplack saying this on his Twitter- via Reddit- and that was also the viewpoint shared by the writers/showrunners and it also started a big sort of Twiter deal with him and some of the Fitz/Simmons shippers that got translated to Reddit). Personally, both seem to be dicks (Fitz in the real world and Fitz's father in the Framework) but I just can't really buy into the idea that with his father around there and/or without Simmons he would become some kind of  Scottish Dr. Megenle. To me, he made a choice to stay with SHIELD once Hydra was revealed, alongside with May, and just adapted/morphed into the Fitzler we saw in the Framework. 

As with AIDA/Ophelia well, all she really did was just input things into the computer, and according to her, she was just a robot doing her programming by Radcliffe (and again they are trying to blame this all on Radcliffe. Yes, he played a major part but so did Fitz, Simmons, and now AIDA/Ophelia. Personally, I want to see Fitz being drummed out of SHIELD for keeping AIDA a secret and also Simmons drummed out of SHIELD also for trying to blackmail Mace, but I doubt that it will happen. We will surely see a punishment for AIDA/Ophelia and a punishment for Radcliffe but not for Fitz and Simmons because they are main characters that would do a lot of shitty things but others would feel the effects of it while they would just continue to live semi-happy lives together) and that the computer just took everything to a Logical conclusion, etc... Her inserting herself as Madame Hydra was probably more like the fact that she was the one who was responsible for programming everything and that it just translated to that... Or maybe I am totally wrong and everything I have said is bs and AIDA/Ophelia just loved Hydra and Nazis so much that she started cosplaying in the Framework and that Fitz was manipulated and he is totally innocent, etc.. But, I do strongly feel that Fitz is just a responsible for everything that has happened, that he wasn't mind controlled/brainwashed into doing those things and that he really did kill Mace and Anges, and that deep down he really is a just an evil dick or maybe he wants to attone for it but honestly, and in my opinion, you just can't wrap this up in a one hour epsidoe. There has to be something major that would happen so Fitz learns that you just can't hide things from your very own organzation, again. Or all of this is for nothing. 

[WatchrTina]

I've skipped reading all the comments above because I just wanted to jump in here (after watching only the first few minutes of this ep) to say THIS SHOW HAS GOTTEN SOOOO GOOD!  I've been binging my way through the last four episodes which have just been AGONIZING.  Oh Mack!  Oh Fitz!  Oh. My. God.

But what got me up out of my chair in THIS ep was Coulson taking off the front of that Russian Bad-guy-bot's face with his S.H.I.E.L.D. shield.  I stood up and cheered (even though I like the actor, Zach McGowan, and was sorry to see his run ended.)  And then two more of him showed up.

Oh. My. God.

 

ETA:  I just finished watching.  OH MY GOD -- Ghost Rider!.  This show . . . I have no words.

Yo-yo.  Damn sweetie -- that was a BAD move.

This show just proves the old adage that hell hath no fury like a robot-woman-recently-made-flesh scorned.

Loved that ep though I am feeling trolled by their having twice teased that we were going to see Zach McGowan's "Russian" in a sex scene with no payoff.  Not cool guys.  Not cool.  

Edited May 14, 2017 by WatchrTina

[CaptainTightpants]

Something that I didn't understand at all was when Talbot said that they found the body of Mace a few days ago "with his bones quaked apart". At first I assumed that they were talking about roboMace that Daisy went all hulk smash on during the fight at the base. 

But then he went on to say that they already knew about all the LMD body snatchers, so he must have been talking about Mace's real body. I guess that means we are supposed to believe AIDA and sexy Russian guy just tossed his corpse into the ocean after he died in the Framework? Which just makes zero sense that they would do that. And why on earth would his body have any damage to it? Also, how on earth would his body wash up on an American shore all the way from Russian waters?

When he flat-lined on the oil rig he just looked like he had died in his sleep. There was no apparent damage to him despite being crushed under a building in framework. Which made sense because all that happened in his head. 

Was anybody else able to make sense of that bit of info? It is totally bugging me!

Edited May 15, 2017 by CaptainTightpants
and another thing!

[TVSpectator]

22 minutes ago, CaptainTightpants said:

Something that I didn't understand at all was when Talbot said that they found the body of Mace a few days ago "with his bones quaked apart". At first I assumed that they were talking about roboMace that Daisy went all hulk smash on during the fight at the base. 

But then he went on to say that they already knew about all the LMD body snatchers, so he must have been talking about Mace's real body. I guess that means we are supposed to believe AIDA and sexy Russian guy just tossed his corpse into the ocean after he died in the Framework? Which just makes zero sense that they would do that. And why on earth would his body have any damage to it? Also, how on earth would his body wash up on an American shore all the way from Russian waters?

When he flat-lined on the oil rig he just looked like he had died in his sleep. There was no apparent damage to him despite being crushed under a building in framework. Which made sense because all that happened in his head. 

Was anybody else able to make sense of that bit of info? It is totally bugging me!

2

The only guess that I can think of was that AIDA must've had Daisy's powers and "quaked" his bones after death. BUT an autopsy would prove that the "quaking" happened after death because like you- it looked like he just died in his sleep. Unless they are trying to say that his mind felt that the Framework was so real that his mind just allowed his body to "shatter" or something- but in my opinion, that theory doesn't make a lot of sense. Personally, I would buy into the idea that AIDA is trying to frame Daisy for Mace's death. 

[Nalan]

45 minutes ago, CaptainTightpants said:

Something that I didn't understand at all was when Talbot said that they found the body of Mace a few days ago "with his bones quaked apart". At first I assumed that they were talking about roboMace that Daisy went all hulk smash on during the fight at the base. 

But then he went on to say that they already knew about all the LMD body snatchers, so he must have been talking about Mace's real body. I guess that means we are supposed to believe AIDA and sexy Russian guy just tossed his corpse into the ocean after he died in the Framework? Which just makes zero sense that they would do that. And why on earth would his body have any damage to it? Also, how on earth would his body wash up on an American shore all the way from Russian waters?

When he flat-lined on the oil rig he just looked like he had died in his sleep. There was no apparent damage to him despite being crushed under a building in framework. Which made sense because all that happened in his head. 

Was anybody else able to make sense of that bit of info? It is totally bugging me!

 

20 minutes ago, TVSpectator said:

The only guess that I can think of was that AIDA must've had Daisy's powers and "quaked" his bones after death. BUT an autopsy would prove that the "quaking" happened after death because like you- it looked like he just died in his sleep. Unless they are trying to say that his mind felt that the Framework was so real that his mind just allowed his body to "shatter" or something- but in my opinion, that theory doesn't make a lot of sense. Personally, I would buy into the idea that AIDA is trying to frame Daisy for Mace's death. 

I have the answer to that.  During the episode, Ivanov explained that he enjoyed further damaging Mace's body after Aida unplugged him.

[TVSpectator]

10 hours ago, Nalan said:

 

I have the answer to that.  During the episode, Ivanov explained that he enjoyed further damaging Mace's body after Aida unplugged him.

 

Yeah, but Talbot said, "bones quaked apart...." which leads into the idea that Anton didn't just damage Mace's body for the hell of it. At least this is what I think but this show has proven me wrong when it comes to logical conclusions- they would totally skip over them to fit into the narrative they want to tell without going back and explaining some major stuff- they themselves set up. 

[Mrs. Stanwyck]

The Russian made a comment to AIDA about how she watched as he took a hammer to the bones of Mace's body.  So, I think they found his body with shattered bones and assumed Daisy quaked his bones apart. I also don't think there was any intent on AIDA or the Russian's part to make it look like Daisy did it.  I think the Russian was frustrated by his inability to harm a living human so he took it out on Mace's dead body.

[Sandman]

On 2017-05-10 at 11:48 AM, AimingforYoko said:

... but when dealing with an emotionally immature former robot with multiple Inhuman powers, I think it's Ok to break up with her via text.

Does anybody but me figure that an electronic mode of breakup with a former AI might actually make things worse? Like she could access some crazy former-AIDA mojo and crash the Internets completely worldwide?

Edited to add: Is there an irony in the fact that a character with the name of a blunt force weapon (mace) was found with his bones crushed?

Edited May 15, 2017 by Sandman
Puns are my weakness

[TVSpectator]

9 hours ago, Mrs. Stanwyck said:

The Russian made a comment to AIDA about how she watched as he took a hammer to the bones of Mace's body.  So, I think they found his body with shattered bones and assumed Daisy quaked his bones apart. I also don't think there was any intent on AIDA or the Russian's part to make it look like Daisy did it.  I think the Russian was frustrated by his inability to harm a living human so he took it out on Mace's dead body.

 

Still, it sounds like Talbot is thinking that Daisy was the one who did it (and honestly how do you know the difference between "quaked" and just plain old "shattered"? I mean why even say "quaked" in the first placed?). Also, yeah, obviously they have to just further put more misery onto Mace- even in death. I  have to wonder if they kind of hated the character of Mace so much they had to have the Russian shatter his bones- after death?

[enness2000]

10 hours ago, TVSpectator said:

Still, it sounds like Talbot is thinking that Daisy was the one who did it (and honestly how do you know the difference between "quaked" and just plain old "shattered"? I mean why even say "quaked" in the first placed?). Also, yeah, obviously they have to just further put more misery onto Mace- even in death. I  have to wonder if they kind of hated the character of Mace so much they had to have the Russian shatter his bones- after death?

I mean, you probably wouldn't, but SHIELD (and therefore Talbot, and also Aida) would have records of exactly what it looks like when someone is quaked to death from any kind of autopsy on Malick last year. And so when another body turns up that bears similar injuries, and where Daisy could plausibly (from Talbot's perspective) have reason to attack him, and she's missing, it's not a massive leap to conclusions. FWIW, I think Aida did have the Russian do it specifically to frame Daisy - in the first few days of the Agents of HYDRA arc, there must have been some offscreen news footage and speculation about the (most recent) fall of SHIELD and a massive unexplained explosion. It's entirely plausible that Aida would see Mace's corpse as an opportunity to make life more difficult for Daisy, and a solid backup for getting her out of the Framework, or at least making it more difficult for her to hide. (I mean, if the Zephyr *had* landed at any stage, you've gotta assume better than 50/50 odds that Talbot would have tried to wake Daisy up by unplugging her even if warned not to). 

Am I the only one who thinks we'll see an army of Daisy-bots fighting an army of Russian-bots next week? The containment rooms where they were stored seemed pretty untouched by the explosion in "Self Control", and it seems like the kind of all-out madness that AoS loves in its fight scenes (escalating from May vs. May to Daisy vs. Alicias to Daisies Vs. Russians is a pretty natural progression, really). 

Also, enough good things can't be said about Mallory Jansen. The credibility and emotional heft of this last swerve rested entirely on her performance, and the entire thing (from her initial joy at being human to becoming completely overwhelmed by emotions by the end) was incredible to watch. She's played every different character so well this season, I'm really going to miss her when she's inevitably sucked into hell by Ghost Rider. 

[Sandman]

3 hours ago, enness2000 said:

Also, enough good things can't be said about Mallory Jansen. The credibility and emotional heft of this last swerve rested entirely on her performance, and the entire thing (from her initial joy at being human to becoming completely overwhelmed by emotions by the end) was incredible to watch.

I'd agree -- up to a point. I think the writers lost me at the end. I didn't buy the last jump to "I want to make them all suffer." I don't know -- it just seemed too far, too fast. I think that's on the writing, though, as I say. I know Jansen sold it as much as anyone could.

[CooperTV]

On 12.05.2017 at 10:11 PM, Bats27 said:

And yeah, poor Fitz really needs to learn how to let a girl down easy.  That was NOT the right way to handle that particular situation.

Fitz's situation is not dissimilar to Jessica Jones under Kilgrave's control situation (or for that matter, Daisy under the Hive's control). AIDA/Ophelia brainwashed him to think he's in love with her and he did very bad things while under the influence. This is a cleat lack of consent involved in his actions, and the fact that he thinks he's just like Ward (and everyone else acting like it's true) sends really unfortunate message,

[TVSpectator]

3 hours ago, CooperTV said:

Fitz's situation is not dissimilar to Jessica Jones under Kilgrave's control situation (or for that matter, Daisy under the Hive's control). AIDA/Ophelia brainwashed him to think he's in love with her and he did very bad things while under the influence. This is a cleat lack of consent involved in his actions, and the fact that he thinks he's just like Ward (and everyone else acting like it's true) sends really unfortunate message,

All AIDA did was programmed a simulation where the Butterfly Effect took place. Also, was it ever hinted that AIDA and Fitz had sex or not? Because comparing Fitz to Jessica Jones is, in my opinion, a bit hard. Only because Fitz still had the choice to not date her or not and I don't think it was ever stated that AIDA programmed as a couple but that it just happened like that because of the Butterfly Effect taking place. Also, when was Simmons killed in Framework? Are we to assume at the same time as the failed MCU Hydra Uprising- which would roughly put her and Fitz still knowing each other for 10 years prior to that and also place everything roughly three to four years after the fact.

[jhlipton]

On 5/10/2017 at 0:13 AM, Lantern7 said:

Ghost Rider: Anybody miss me? I'm just gonna tear through the plot red tape and do the bitchin' thing where I wrap the chain around myself. Hey, Marvel!! Why give another season for Iron Fist when I'm still kicking?!?

Sorry, dude, you just cost too much!

On 5/10/2017 at 9:23 AM, RandomMe said:

Mallory's performance in particular makes up for not getting that third season of Galavant ;-)

Nothing -- nothing at all -- will make up for not having a third season of Galavant.  A piece of crap like Once Upon a Time (which wasted Karen David moire than locking her up in a doll-house) gets renewed but not a fun and clever show like Galavant.  GRRRRRR  And Mallory Jansen definitely deserves an Emmy.

[CooperTV]

10 hours ago, TVSpectator said:

All AIDA did was programmed a simulation where the Butterfly Effect took place.

All AIDA did are:

1). Make Fitz mother and grandmother disappear;

2) Make Fitz to live with his verbally and physically abusive father (at some point Fitz physically recoiling from his dad in the Framework);

3) Kill off Framework!Jemma, inserting herself in her place;

4) Making him forget his friends, family, love of his life because she needed him focused on a task at hand.

10 hours ago, TVSpectator said:

Also, was it ever hinted that AIDA and Fitz had sex or not? Because comparing Fitz to Jessica Jones is, in my opinion, a bit hard.

They were a couple. It's clear from their behavior they were together in the Framework for a "long" time. She raped him and then Fitz is the one feeling guilty for the choices he wouldn't ever make if he wasn't brainwashed and raped by some crazy psycho. And of course the said psycho would say "lol I only changed small things! This is who you are! Even if I made you that way specifically to use you for my own gains".

I do think that Fitz saying he's just like Ward is very telling, though. Fitz is genuinely good person that now is suffering from misplaced guilt for the actions of someone who wasn't even him, not really. That's why he's not at all like Ward, who never and any point attempted self-reflection and never felt guilty for anything he'd ever done.

[TVSpectator]

17 hours ago, CooperTV said:

All AIDA did are:

1). Make Fitz mother and grandmother disappear;

2) Make Fitz to live with his verbally and physically abusive father (at some point Fitz physically recoiling from his dad in the Framework);

3) Kill off Framework!Jemma, inserting herself in her place;

4) Making him forget his friends, family, love of his life because she needed him focused on a task at hand.

They were a couple. It's clear from their behavior they were together in the Framework for a "long" time. She raped him and then Fitz is the one feeling guilty for the choices he wouldn't ever make if he wasn't brainwashed and raped by some crazy psycho. And of course the said psycho would say "lol I only changed small things! This is who you are! Even if I made you that way specifically to use you for my own gains".

I do think that Fitz saying he's just like Ward is very telling, though. Fitz is genuinely good person that now is suffering from misplaced guilt for the actions of someone who wasn't even him, not really. That's why he's not at all like Ward, who never and any point attempted self-reflection and never felt guilty for anything he'd ever done.

Okay, but still she didn't really brainwash him, in my opinion. All that happened was that she programmed the Framework to be sort of a place that everyone got what they wanted and/or wanted to change their lives and under Radcliffe's wishes/orders was to make it as real as possible so their minds won't resist the Framework. Mack got to raise his dead daughter, May saved the girl from the episode, Melinda, Coulson never joined SHIELD and instead became a teacher, and apparently, Fitz wanted his verbally/physically abusive father back in his life for some reason even though he IS old enough to understand (and I think that his character has to be somewhere between the ages of 26-30 years old) that his father leaving was probably a much better thing than him staying. He was like 10 when he left and IF his father was really verbally/physically abusive, in the real world, then adult Fitz would've known this as well by just looking back. I mean 10 years old is old enough to really formed memories and if his father was verbally/physically abuse towards him then he is old enough to know that and also old enough to understand that maybe his father was also verbally/abusive towards his mother and that she left him. BUT we were told that his father just up and left- leaving him and his mother alone. 

Part me thinks that it's more of the Darkhold twisting everything (which is what it kind of always did in the comics). Because Coulson ends up teaching that Hydra is kind of alright/needed (he is spreading Hydra's propaganda), May not only works with Hydra but is loyal to them (she is now a loyal "warrior" for Hydra), Fitz's father is totally an asshole and Fitz himself is basically a Scottish Dr. Menegle, etc... The only one that really got away without any real bad twist to their wish was Mack. Hell, I was half expecting Hope to be some kind of Hydra youth or something, or to be kidnapped and killed by Hydra. On Simmons' death and AIDA's relationship, I see it more or less the result of the Butterfly Effect taking place. Hydra uprising worked because May didn't kill that girl from Bahrain and instead Hydra used her to stage an incident to take power and instill fear of Inhumans. Hydra took over SHIELD, and most likely some people probably resisted (which would be Simmons and also did anyone noticed the skull that kind of looked like Deathlok?) and died the day and/or not too long after they took over, cover it up, etc... Sure AIDA did put herself there but she also kind of had to give herself some kind of backstory in order to fit in and being basically Madame Hydra was kind of logical since she was kind of the one running the shots. 

Personally, though, in my opinion, the Framework story arc DOES have problems to it but AIDA dating Fitz isn't, in my opinion, one of the problems. Because of they still all had some idea to make choices to what they can do/not do then they are still kind of responsible over their choices that they all made in the Framework. Hell, freaking Ward for some reason joins SHIELD's side because of Victoria Hand (which is still a lot of baggage. Even to this day watch the scene where Real Ward kills Victoria Hand is hard to watch because you can literally hear her in pain over bing shot the first time and then watching him shot her like 2-4 times more, in the head) but Fitz and May are just loyal Hydra? WTF? Why would their minds just accept that reality over a reality where SHIELD is still up and running?, Etc...

Edited May 21, 2017 by TVSpectator

[Sandman]

On May 19, 2017 at 7:10 PM, TVSpectator said:

All AIDA did was programmed a simulation where the Butterfly Effect took place.

But the simulation was a script that couldn't have depended on their actual participation throughout most of it. It's been stated that the characters had entire lifetimes in the Framework. But they obviously didn't live it in real time -- their histories, other than the week or so of real-time experience, were supplied by the program -- by AIDA. I have a hard time believing that doesn't count as manipulation. It's the biggest part of why I don't buy the "one change alters everything" premise.

And I'm pretty sure that we only have AIDA/Ophelia's word on "all" she did.

It's not a case of AIDA's needing a backstory, so she might as well put herself in charge; according to Radcliffe, she was never supposed to be part of the Framework in the first place. She needed the Framework to produce a particular result -- the Real Girl Gizmo -- and so put herself in charge, inside the Framework and out, to ensure that outcome. It seems to me the plot holes you point out aren't actually inconsistencies in the plot at all, but inconsistencies in her explanation; they're evidence that AIDA is lying about the extent of own manipulations, and about how much choice Fitz and May, in particular, had. Fitz and May represented possibly the biggest threat to her plan. She had to get them on her side to succeed, so she had a vested interest in making them behave in ways that supported her plan.

Edited May 21, 2017 by Sandman

[TVSpectator]

1 hour ago, Sandman said:

But the simulation was a script that couldn't have depended on their actual participation throughout most of it. It's been stated that the characters had entire lifetimes in the Framework. But they obviously didn't live it in real time -- their histories, other than the week or so of real-time experience, were supplied by the program -- by AIDA. I have a hard time believing that doesn't count as manipulation. It's the biggest part of why I don't buy the "one change alters everything" premise.

And I'm pretty sure that we only have AIDA/Ophelia's word on "all" she did.

It's not a case of AIDA's needing a backstory, so she might as well put herself in charge; according to Radcliffe, she was never supposed to be part of the Framework in the first place. She needed the Framework to produce a particular result -- the Real Girl Gizmo -- and so put herself in charge, inside the Framework and out, to ensure that outcome. It seems to me the plot holes you point out aren't actually inconsistencies in the plot at all, but inconsistencies in her explanation; they're evidence that AIDA is lying about the extent of own manipulations, and about how much choice Fitz and May, in particular, had. Fitz and May represented possibly the biggest threat to her plan. She had to get them on her side to succeed, so she had a vested interest in making them behave in ways that supported her plan.

Okay Radcliffe did confirmed that time passes much faster in the Framework  than real life. So  a few hours outside the Framework/real word is like spending a few days inside the Framework. So their memories of a liftime could be their week or so-minus May time missing/kidnap in the real world.

AIDA's plan aside, Radcliffe wanted to keep May in the Framework and wanted her brain to belive it was real(so her mind/body won't resist the Framework) and with the others,since they were the main characters were already a threat to the Framework and Radcliffe decided to ally himself with the Watchdogs and wanted to build Daisy bots to kill/lure other Inhumans with. If AIDA's program was to protect the Framework and she wasn't able to overcome it, when she was a robot, then she was doing what Radcliffe programmed her to do-to protect the Framework. Aside with her very complex and, IMO, convoluted plan to become a real girl (yeah I would say that part does sound a bit like Piconicco's story- which is also a realy old Disney movie) pretty much everything else was the choices made by the people who were inside the Framework that were base on the idea that they got thier regret wipeout and replace with a different choice but was also influenced by the concept of the Butterfly Effect and most likely the black magic of the Darkhold.

Edited May 21, 2017 by TVSpectator

[AKA...CJ86]

The episode was so awesome... and as much as I loved the return of Ghost Rider... holy convenience as the gang heads to the final battle for the Rider to pop up...

[Sandman]

On 2017-05-11 at 7:47 AM, LilJen said:

I want to know who was the idiot who connected the database containing all the Inhuman data with the LMD database (which AIDA then took into the "make me into a Real Boy machine"). Whoever did that is responsible for RealBoy!AIDA and her surfeit of Inhuman powers.

This must have been Fitz, no?

[Kel Varnsen]

I have been pretty skeptical of this show since pretty much for ever and even i can't believe how fun, exciting and well done that episode was. Who would have thought that a character i wrote off as a fake Krieger bot would have made the episode (although Radcliffe is still totally Krieger). Even Talbot (who usually bugs the shit out of me) didn't bother me this time.

On 10/05/2017 at 8:07 AM, shrewd.buddha said:

The Aida/Framework story line has been good, but I am dismayed that it has returned SHIELD back to an outlaw, underground group of ragtag misfits. SHIELD, as an organization,  is as off-and-on as Fitz-Simmons.  It must truly suck to be an SHIELD agent  who isn't part of the six to ten main agents. Where do the redshirt agents go when SHIELD is on the outs? Do they have to continually open and close the SHIELD academy programs, labs, outposts, etc? 

You have to think that where ever he is Nick Fury is just shaking his head and swearing a ton over what has been going on with SHIELD since he disappeared in Winter Soldier.

[TVSpectator]

On 7/13/2017 at 9:01 AM, Sandman said:

This must have been Fitz, no?

Probably. I don't think that it was ever mentioned but he and Simmons were the ones who had the most contacted with Radcliffe. So, my guess would be both Fitz and Simmons.