S01.E20: Nothing Personal

[ChelseaNH]

I wouldn't think a Nazi faction could so easily (and secretly) infiltrate an organization like SHIELD.

 

Well, not if "Nazis, yay!" is their recruiting pitch.  But since SHIELD is an elite organization, I can see people being drawn to the "we are the superior people and natural rulers, while the rest of humanity are sheep who exist to serve us" angle.

 

Evil Ward is way more fun than wallowing-in-his-lurve-for-Skye Ward.

[Jediknight]

(And with that I just realized that I've taken the Star Wars analogy way further than I ever intended. I swear I'm not that huge a fan.)

Taking a Star Wars analogy far, and being a big fan is nothing you should have to explain, or deny.

 

I can't believe I forgot about this.  Coulson was behind TAHITI, so he probably knew about the Guest House, that just keeps making them killing 2 innocent guards look better and better.

[ActualSize]

Taking a bite out of the apple was a nice touch. Conveyed the whole, "I am SO in charge here right now that I can eat a piece of fruit while we interrogate you."

I have been wondering since they first arrived at this secret, hidden base how there was fresh fruit just lying around. There was a point in the first Patton Oswalt episode where the camera appeared to linger lovingly on a banana. So who brings the fruit?

Other than my strange fixation on irrelevant (seemingly!) details, I LOVED this episode. Skye jerking Ward around, Lola, the T.A.H.I.T.I. reveal - awesome! When I first saw the open grave, I was sure May had dug up Fury's coffin to see if it was empty.

[Sandman]

 

As for Coulson and TAHITI, I got the impression it was just one of the many things Coulson did while working for Fury. He was a good soldier and he followed orders. He was in charge of TAHITI because Fury told him to be. I like the fact that the memory wipe is necessary to protect the mind of someone whose been through the process and that doesn't bode well for Skye. She may not get the full effects Coulson did but something is bound to happen. While I enjoyed the reveal of Coulson being involved with TAHITI beforehand, I still can't understand why Fury used it on him. Is Coulson really THAT important to him, or was Fury just curious to see if his findings were accurate?

 

In his report, Coulson says that the T.A.H.I.T.I. project was designed to preserve or retrieve the life of a member of the Avengers; it occurs to me that with Coulson's death Fury saw an opportunity to field-test the protocol without risk to one of the Avengers. I don't think Director Fury necessarily considers the Son of Coul the most important member of S.H.I.E.L.D. 

 

I suppose there's also a remote possibility that, sometime between making the recommendation against using the protocol on anyone ever, ever again that we saw, and the end of The Avengers, Agent Coulson volunteered to become a potential test subject (and subsequently had that memory wiped), but his vehemence about the disastrous consequences of T.A.H.I.T.I. seems to make this unlikely.

 

My speculation is that whatever makes Skye an 0-8-4 will probably shield her ( ... sorry) from whatever deterioration makes the protocol so scary.  

 

And I think one of the ideas behind the show is that S.H.I.E.L.D.'s own habits of secrecy, control, and subterfuge, with cover identities and covert intentions being such a big part of the culture, are precisely what make it vulnerable to infiltration. Ward was on a mission, and he did what he always did: gained people's trust, and used it for the advantage of his controllers. It just that the people who thought they were in charge ... weren't.   

Edited April 30, 2014 by Sandman

[Grammaeryn]

I know everyone loves May, but I find her constant stoney, frowny face grating. She kicks all ass. I get it. Could she please just crack a smile every once in awhile? It doesn't even have to be often. Just once in awhile.

 

I missed some episodes early in the season. I want to go back and catch up on everything I missed before the finale.

There was an earlier episode that explained May's stoicness and she smiled in the same episode!  The upshot is she went on a rescue op that went sideways and bloody in a horrifying way.  The only way she could cope with what she had done is to say goodbye to who she used to be.  So, her demeanor is basically PTSD/coping mechanism.

[NCChic]

Am I the only one who chuckled when Coulson went "Huh" after discovering he was in charge of T.A.H.I.T.I?

And, correct me if I'm wrong, but people in the Air Force are called Airmen, not soldiers. That's Army.

[Sandman]

Am I the only one who chuckled when Coulson went "Huh" after discovering he was in charge of T.A.H.I.T.I?

 

Definitely not. Am I the only one who heard Hill say "I vetted him," and imagined May thinking "You and me both, sister; I vetted the guy's brains out"?

Edited May 1, 2014 by Sandman

[kitlee625]

Really loved this episode on so many levels. The drama and acting were really good, and the Bear McCreary score really added this note of horror throughout the earlier scenes when they're finding Koenig's body, and when Skye is playing Ward.

 

While I felt that Skye's decision to save Ward was very in character, I don't think that it was true love so much as her caring personality. She isn't a killer, unlike him, Garrett, and Deathlock. She even tries to appeal to Deathlock's humanity.

 

I also like the way they played Ward's love for Skye. Rather than being something that will redeem him, she visibly cringes every time he touches her and says that his love for her makes her want to vomit. And with good reason. In the name of love, he has lied to her, kidnapped her, killed two police officers (and beat up several others) to keep her from leaving him, and then shot at Coulson to keep her from leaving him. I love that they aren't shying away from the darker sides of his character, and it gives me faith that next episode isn't going to be about woobifying him so that he can be back to playing Upwords with the team by early season 2.

 

Also, what is the deal with T.A.H.I.T.I. I'm not sure where they're going with this now, but I am super excited. I had a lot of theories about how this episode would go, and it genuinely surprised me.

[Raja]

And, correct me if I'm wrong, but people in the Air Force are called Airmen, not soldiers. That's Army.

You are correct I missed who called them "soldiers" which in the US is both specifically US Army and the generic people involved in land combat which Marines, Naval Special Forces (SEALS) and Air force Special Forces all do. Was it the Colonel or one of the SHIELD agents, some of who come from other countries with a different military etiquette or like Skye with her on the job training would be expected to know. .Sort of like in the Army specifically a "trooper" sometimes called a "troop" when talking about an individual and not a company sized unit is supposed to be a Calvaryman or Paratrooper but the term is used by many as a generic for soldier.

[shapeshifter]

I didn't think the audience was supposed to think for one minute that Ward's declarations of love for Skye in the restaurant were sincere. I assumed he was still trying to play her, and that was why she wanted to vomit, because she recognized it too.

[Jazzy24]

I didn't think the audience was supposed to think for one minute that Ward's declarations of love for Skye in the restaurant were sincere. I assumed he was still trying to play her, and that was why she wanted to vomit, because she recognized it too.

I agree but I do think he has really strong feelings for her like wanting to go after her when she and Coulson escaped, all I thought was Ward was being creepy.

[SourK]

It did bug that Skye didn't just let Deathlock kill Ward. I mean, I would've, and Ward would never make out with me (I'm close to twice his age). But that's the way they roll on these network shows.

 

Yeah. I was actively cheering for her to call their bluff and let Ward die. Even if it wasn't a bluff, then let them kill one of their own dudes. Even outside of it making sense on a character level, I was also hoping that the show would be smarter than to use a gimmick where Skye gives in to that kind of manipulation. It's such a cliche that I was really hoping for a clever reversal, and I was disappointed that we didn't get one.

 

I think the show wussed out on an awful lot of things in that scene, actually. It would have been horribly uncomfortable to watch them torture Skye for information, but there was a moment where I thought that was what they were going to do, and that, for good or ill, that would have been a bold choice from the writers (you know, given how horribly uncomfortable it would be). But, no. Again, we fall back on something safe and familiar and they torture her by threatening Ward instead.

 

 

Only issue I have is that Ward looses a ton of cool points (cool in an evil way, of course), now that he actually has "feelings" for Skye.  Damnit, Ward.  Just embrace the evil. 

 

Yeah. Ward became a thousand times more interesting once he randomly became evil -- er, I mean, once it was "revealed" that he had "always" been evil. It's not just that the character is more interesting, but the actor is much more emotive and charismatic in his performance now that Ward's personality is "being evil" instead of "being the stodgy military guy." Now that I see what he can do, I wish that he had made different choices about how he pitched the performance early on. Ward could have been an interesting guy if we had seen a little more feeling behind his control.

 

That said, I have a hard time believing his feelings for Skye, and it makes him seem like much less of a badass that he wants to keep whining about it. I liked him with May, god dammit. Partly because -- and this relates to what I said above -- at least that was unexpected.

 

I would watch the hell out of The Maria Hill & Melinda May show.  If they add Simmons to the mix, I would buy the DVDs and download it on I-tunes! 

 

Myself as well. Myself as well.

[KayElektra]

What I gathered from the "Coulson in charge of TAHITI" thing was this:

 

They were using that alien/alien's blood to test subjects for regeneration (because they wanted to use it for the Avengers).  It was mainly failing.  It was causing death and pain and possibly would only work if they completely rewrote their memory.  Coulson was having none of this, and thus...resigned. 

 

Only then he was stabbed in the heart and Fury said "Fuck it" and threw Coulson into TAHITI.

 

No idea how Coulson's "I quit" works into the Avengers plotline since he was totally on the clock, but that's what I'm going with.

 

Also, I don't hate Skye, but she apparently could take the healing alien blood without a memory re-write, so...special snowflake, indeed.

Edited May 1, 2014 by KayElektra

[shapeshifter]

Also, I don't hate Skye, but she apparently could take the healing alien blood without a memory re-write, so...special snowflake, indeed.

I find this a lot more tolerable than a Ward/Skye twu wuv scenario. I honestly don't know if it's the casting of Chloe Bennet, or the writing and directing for Skye, or the hair and styling, but she comes off as a kid, and Ward is a nearly middle-aged man, so the romance angle is just weird to me. I could accept her having a crush on him, which Ward is using for his dastardly purposes, but anything more than that seems wrong. They would've been 21 and 31 respectively when this was shot, and they make her look no more than 19 and act more like 16, whereas he seems more mid-thirties, with his tough, world-weary persona. At this point, it seems the best out for the writers is if he delivers some soul-crushing line to her about how he doesn't go for kids or something when he admits he was using her.

[kitlee625]

I agree but I do think he has really strong feelings for her like wanting to go after her when she and Coulson escaped, all I thought was Ward was being creepy.

I think that is the point. He loves her, but his love is twisted and makes him do dark things like kill people to stop her from leaving him, and holding her hostage. I thought they did a really good job of integrating everything - actors' body language, music, lighting - to give their scenes together this creepy intensity.

[Kromm]

Also, I don't hate Skye, but she apparently could take the healing alien blood without a memory re-write, so...special snowflake, indeed.

 

Except we don't know that for sure.  The decision to use this on Skye was made by a version of Coulson with no knowledge a memory wipe was necessary.  And we have no idea of the time scale of when the bad effects are supposed to happen.

 

This is on purpose.  It's a plot-leader for next season (since there likely isn't time left for it this season).  For both Coulson AND Skye.  

 

The twist could be as simple as something new having been done to the process of making what's in those little vials before Coulson got it done (I don't think we're supposed to assume it's literally them drinking alien blood with nothing else being done to it).  But we likely won't KNOW that until well into next season.  Or possibly we WILL see one or both of them go insane and have some storyarc about stopping/fixing it.

 

Then again, literally, we already know Skye WAS a special snowflake in other ways even before any of this.  Not just her being "sweet" or a magic hacker, or any bullshit like that, but that literally there's a bunch of super-suspicious stuff in her origin.  So biologically there could be some reasons she reacts differently, and Coulson could be the lone risk next season for going bonkers.

Edited May 1, 2014 by Kromm

[Sandman]

I think Ward's feelings for Skye are probably genuine - or as genuine as they can be in anyone who's so fundamentally a liar. I think Skye felt like vomiting not because she realized he was still trying to manipulate her, but because she realized he wasn't: I think she was appalled that he clearly loves her, and she has no wish to be loved by a monster.

 

I'm not sure that his love for her counts as the reason for anything he's done, other than not killing her already. I think he was truly shocked that Ian Wossname shot her, though. On the whole, I'd rather not see a story (which feels somewhat inevitable now) about Skye's love "redeeming" Ward. (I'd rather see Steve Rogers turn Bucky back into a person. At least that'd have the novelty value of agape being the driver, rather than eros.)

[dusang]

Okay, Skye's little "what would you say to Garrett if he were here right now" speech was pretty awesome and my admiration grew when she got in some [well foley-ed] shots when she attacked him on the bus, but I absolutely squealed with delight when she head-butted him.

 

Followed by the "you're a Nazi serial killer" and her wanting to throw up when he said his feelings were real... all in all, Skye really showed up this week.

 

Also LOVED Deathlok throwing the "I was just following orders" line back in Ward's face.

 

I think the show wussed out on an awful lot of things in that scene, actually. It would have been horribly uncomfortable to watch them torture Skye for information, but there was a moment where I thought that was what they were going to do, and that, for good or ill, that would have been a bold choice from the writers (you know, given how horribly uncomfortable it would be). But, no. Again, we fall back on something safe and familiar and they torture her by threatening Ward instead.

 

I hear what you're saying but, personally, I'm very happy that they didn't go the 24 route where torture solves everything (or anything).  Not to get in a real-life debate on the efficacy of torture, I just don't think it would be an appropriate tonal fit for the show and the "threatening others" ploy demonstrates more psychological finesse from Garrett/Hydra and character consistency from Skye.  I don't think it showed weakness on her part -- Batman saved Joker, didn't he?

 

And with good reason. In the name of love, he has lied to her, kidnapped her, killed two police officers (and beat up several others) to keep her from leaving him,

 

Weirdly, after all the people we have seen him kill, I noticed that at least one of the cops he shot near Skye was hobbling, so I think he just took out their knees.  Not that that lessens your point in any way, just an odd detail.

[JTMacc99]

The angle they seem to working for Ward is that he's clearly a bad guy, but he's not Mwah-Ha-Ha! Evil (that would be Garrett, or as I like to think of him, "what happened to Chet from Weird Science when he grew up"), but instead Ward is evil guy who doesn't think that the bad things he does define him. 

 

And forgive me as I give this show WAY too much credit here: It is not at all a bad character to have in a Nazi scenario. One doesn't have to watch too many Third Reich specials to spot the Ward types and to understand the role they played in what happened.

[ReadingZombie]

I thought it was interesting that Ward denied the whole Nazi connection. He seemed genuinely surprised by it. Does he even know whose side he's on, and what he's fighting for? I do think it's a loyalty to Garrett much more than a loyalty to Hydra that is driving him. Now that he knows that Garrett sees him as expendable how does he choose to move forward from here? I don't think he is irredeemable, and it will be interesting to see if they go that route, but I want to see him face some real consequences of his actions.   

[Kromm]

I thought it was interesting that Ward denied the whole Nazi connection. He seemed genuinely surprised by it. Does he even know whose side he's on, and what he's fighting for? I do think it's a loyalty to Garrett much more than a loyalty to Hydra that is driving him. Now that he knows that Garrett sees him as expendable how does he choose to move forward from here? I don't think he is irredeemable, and it will be interesting to see if they go that route, but I want to see him face some real consequences of his actions.   

You get the impression that even a 10 year old in the Marvel Cineverse knows about HYDRA being an arm of the Nazis, because of their connection to Captain America, whom they all seem to know.

[Raja]

I think some think the scene where Hydra assassinated the SS wipes away the Nazi issues for us. It should not for the characters in the MCU

[Kromm]

I think some think the scene where Hydra assassinated the SS wipes away the Nazi issues for us. It should not for the characters in the MCU

Hmm.  Being part of an atrocity, but then turning on one other party to it after the fact, to better serve your own self-interest, "fixes" things?

 

Not really, IMO.

 

Also... Baron von Strucker?  Who ran HYDRA after the Red Skull died, apparently even in the Cineverse (because we've SEEN him, and allegedly will be seeing him again in the next Avengers movie)?  Kinda a mega-Nazi.  

[Raja]

I agree but in post show discussion many are taking Ward's positions since Hydra didn't specifically target Jews

[Jamoche]

I don't know anything about any of the various Marvel canon explanations for HYDRA, but just picking from history and the movie bits about imposing order on a chaotic world, I could see them doing a spin on their history along the lines of "all that other stuff the Nazis did? Totally not us. Really, that has nothing to do with the whole 'fighting chaos' thing - and you like that part, right?"

[Kromm]

I agree but in post show discussion many are taking Ward's positions since Hydra didn't specifically target Jews

You're saying that people think the Nazis were ONLY about persecuting Jews?  So these are people who don't actually read history I guess.

 

Sure it was their biggest sin, but it wasn't their MOTIVE (at least not their primary motive).  

 

It's kind of like how slavery wasn't really the primary motive behind the Civil War.  People I think can't always comprehend that issues clump together, but that history gets rewritten somewhat to simply things.

 

A theoretical outgrowth of the Nazis wouldn't necessarily visibly target Jews.  An anti-Jewish agenda likely still be written somewhere in their mission statement, but their goals would be more about gaining power first, before it went back to using that power to purify the race (although note even that isn't totally gone, given what we saw in Cap 2--it was just the WAY they went about purification that changed).  

 

I guess what I'm saying is that killing Jews wouldn't be a short term goal.  It would be a long-term one.

[Raja]

We're in total agreement, there are those who disagree with us. The template was set when US segregation was ignored in Captain America The First Avenger. Marvel's decision not to go there left us a debate topic

[shapeshifter]

Also LOVED Deathlok throwing the "I was just following orders" line back in Ward's face. 

 ...I'm very happy that they didn't go the 24 route where torture solves everything (or anything).  Not to get in a real-life debate on the efficacy of torture,..

Ditto on both.

The following orders line has potential for being a classic clip, but I'm not sure it can stand alone without backstory on Deathlok.

I was slightly tensing up, expecting the requisite torture bit, but was pleasantly surprised they didn't go there with Skye, although giving Ward a heart attack actually was torture, so: fail.

[John Potts]

So - did our heroes end up with the data in the end? I mean, I get that it was just the McGuffin, but it would be nice to make clear if this really important data actually ended up in safe hands (I get that Skye sabotaged it somehow so that HYDRA don't have it, but don't SHIELD need it?).

 

Isn't Maria Hill SHIELD's Second in Command? So she can give Coulson orders, right? Yet, he doesn't seem to respect her or obey her, yet he expects everyone else to follow him. Not that she was showing a lot of sense - first she leads the US government to the facility and then she attacks them (though the Colonel was an idiot too - isn't it a bad idea to advance down the middle of a corridor before the "enemy" have surrendered?).

 

Sarahastro Another question: why is the US government there?

 

Because Canada is a fictional country in the MCU?

 

History Girl Skye flying out of the car because she hadn't buckled up and of course her hair which was LOL hilarious.

 

You know it’s serious when it can mess a girl’s hair!

 

Shapeshifter - Coulson reaching for the $20 parking fee.

 

I loved that moment! I was wondering if the attendant saw the car land or not – if he did, that makes it even funnier!

 

Jediknight I can't believe I forgot about this.  Coulson was behind TAHITI, so he probably knew about the Guest House, that just keeps making them killing 2 innocent guards look better and better.

 

That's a damn good point!

[KirkB]

Isn't Maria Hill SHIELD's Second in Command? So she can give Coulson orders, right? Yet, he doesn't seem to respect her or obey her, yet he expects everyone else to follow him. Not that she was showing a lot of sense - first she leads the US government to the facility and then she attacks them (though the Colonel was an idiot too - isn't it a bad idea to advance down the middle of a corridor before the "enemy" have surrendered?).

 

 

   SHIELD technically doesn't exist anymore. At that point, even Fury couldn't officially give anyone orders. But back when SHIELD was still going, Hill was second in command but I think Coulson only reported directly to Fury.

[HistoryGirl]

Captain America spoiler:  

Hill works for Stark Industries now

.  While she's still SHIELD loyal, she's technically without a position. 

[Kromm]

Captain America spoiler:  

Hill works for Stark Industries now

.  While she's still SHIELD loyal, she's technically without a position. 

That information is also revealed by actual dialogue appearing on AGENTS of SHIELD as well.

[HistoryGirl]

That information is also revealed by actual dialogue appearing on AGENTS of SHIELD as well.

True, but I thought Maria was a little more vague about her connection to it, but maybe it was explicitly said and I just forgot.

[John Potts]

KirkB SHIELD technically doesn't exist anymore. At that point, even Fury couldn't officially give anyone orders.

 

Yes, but on that basis Coulson  can't give anyone orders either. Either you observe the pre-existing command structure or you abandon it - trying to do both is kinda stupid. Besides, at the end of The Winter Soldier, she seemed pretty much still Fury's Deputy IIRC (so she still thinks of SHIELD as functioning).

 

I did like Skye in this episode. For once, we actually got a reason to believe that she might make a good agent. While she never really got the better of Ward (or Deathlok), she did do her best to both stall and to pass the information on to her colleagues. So kudos to the writers (and Chloe Bennett).

[KirkB]

True, but I think they HAVE abandoned it and are starting over. Fury made Coulson the Director of the new SHIELD, so even if he and Hill are tangentially connected they would technically be Coulson's subordinates. Granted, this is not official in terms of government connection or legal authority, but if the old boss makes someone else the new boss he gets to make the orders and if Hill wants to be a part of it she'll have to play along.

[ChelseaNH]

on that basis Coulson  can't give anyone orders either

 

A point Simmons made quite clearly.  The team is following Coulson's orders because they want to.  When they chose to leave the Hub with him, they were signing on to follow him.  It's personal, not organizational.

[webruce]

Fitz couldn't believe Ward was bad. But all evidence fit it on Eric Koenigs death.

Should have known Grant Ward would take out all those cops. then Mike Petterson/Deathlok intercedes. Mike almost killing Ward to get Skye to tell the code will make Ward retaliate later maybe. Also he should question John Garrett about it. Garrett will laugh it off. Wards back and forth in the bus made me wonder if he really is Hydra or not. Or was he playing Skye? Skye pushed some buttons in the Ruthie's Diner. Calling Ward a Nazi.

Nice that at end Fitz and Simmons seem closer, and Coulson and Skye share a candy bar. Even Tripplett offers Fitz some nuts.

Coulson boarding the bus to save Skye was good. When she dropped the parachute I thought, no Ward will use it to chase you. But he didn't. Then poor Lola was shot up. Skye almost should have had it on, she hadn't hooked her belt yet. Coulson had a good grip on her. Strong arms lol.

We also had Colonial Glenn Talbot and Maria Hill coming to the Fortress. But then her and Coulson had to take down some Special Forces to escape. Well Coulson had some trouble with Talbot.

Surprised when ,May shows Coulson himself talking about stopping Tahiti. And all it's problems