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S03.E03: Crazy Whitefella Thinking

Tara Ariano

By Tara Ariano
in The Leftovers [V]

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stagmania

stagmania

Oof. Do you think the writers kept a going list of the most deeply traumatic departure scenarios they could dream up? Five children wasting away while their mother assumes they're already gone is a hard one to top.

Glad to have a better understanding of what's being going on with Kevin, Sr. And now Jr is unwittingly headed right into this mess. 

  • Love 13
Macbeth

Macbeth

2 minutes ago, Mindthinkr said:

There was something about this episode that had me stunned and I just can't figure out what it is yet. I'm not an eejit just gobsmacked. 

I couldn't make heads or tails of it.  Part of my problem - is that when Sr started to talk about the intricacies of what he was trying to accomplish - My mind piped in reminding me that "This is from the guy who brought you "Lost." - This is just a lot of useless information you will never need to know, will never retain, so don't even bother."

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Mindthinkr

Mindthinkr

You've got a good point @Macbeth  I never did find out why there were polar bears on that island lol. 

Tonight I learned that the lady, Grace, who killed the sheriff Kevin, only read one page of the book of Kevin according to Matt. The page in his hand when she found him. Now there is no whole copy anywhere (unless someone went dumpster diving...well garbage can but y'all know what I mean). 

Was Kevin Sr hallucinating when he saw the people building the mini ark? 

Does Kevin Sr think that he's going to "save" this woman Grace? 

I love this show but it questions me to question more. Like the snake that eats its tail  

  • Love 8
stagmania

stagmania

Something was niggling at my memory and now I've placed it: when Sr was talking about taking the hallucinogens in the hotel in Perth-we saw that. In International Assassin, Jr sees him through the TV set. So Sr made a real connection with Jr while he was in whatever that place was-afterlife, purgatory, dream dimension. A pretty strong hint that the Kevins are not merely delusional and something bigger is going on here.

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Mindthinkr

Mindthinkr

(edited)

I had the same thought but wondered why he didn't mention it during his chat with Chris. Then I remembered that he told him that he didn't recall anything during that 2 week trip. Wonder what drug he ingested that lasted 2 weeks.  "What a long strange trip it's been". 

Edited by Mindthinkr
Autocorrect doesn't like me!
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Cardie

Cardie

(edited)
48 minutes ago, Mindthinkr said:

 I never did find out why there were polar bears on that island lol.

The Dharma scientists were conducting experiments to see how they adapted to a much warmer climate.

This was a long way around to explain the coda of The Book of Kevin but I found it mesmerizing, thanks to the performances by Scott Glenn and Lindsay Duncan. In general it seemed to warn against interpreting any occurrence, however portentous and mysterious it might seem (i.e. The Sudden Departure) as a sign from God and then taking actions based on that interpretation. (IOW, let the mystery be.)  Even Kevin Sr. can’t find meaning in the man burning himself alive due to not being taken because he answered the question about sacrificing a baby to cure cancer incorrectly. His thought processes whereby a pecking chicken leads him to believe that singing an aboriginal song aggregation will stop an impending flood as singing Itsy Bitsy Spider stopped a rain storm on his Niagara trip with young Kevin Jr. were demented yet so typical of Kevin Sr. Too bad they made Chris and Aussie Kevin victims. More water imagery, of course, and the return of Danger Snake.

Was that woman building the Ark the same actress as the nun who talks to “Sarah?” Mention of Isaac here, as there had to be, just like Noah.

Edited by Cardie
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scrb

scrb

The Departure made people cuckoo, basically abandoning rationality.

So people are looking for signs and taking impulsive actions, based on feelings.

They believe in prophesies and more theories on the impending apocalypse.

Wasn't one of the Lost characters a "man of science" or something like that?  Lindelof may be recycling some retread ideas he's used previously.

 

One more rational thing Kevin Sr. could have done was to get that cassette digitized into an MP3, store it in the cloud and have multiple copies, rather than take a cassette, which degrades even under the best conditions, into the harsh Australian climes.

Of course he wouldn't have made anything out of a chicken pecking some random object in his backpack, though maybe not so random since that was a big recorder which took up a lot of space, leaving room only for a few things.

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WaltersHair

WaltersHair

There's a problem I can't seem to get past with Kevin Sr. If you've ever worked with or known highly delusional people, it's incredibly frustrating and ultimately fruitless to buy into their delusions. I realize that in the Leftovers universe, Kevin might be a prophet, but my eyes just glazed over when he told his story about Tony the chicken. And talked and talked and talked complete nonsense. And killed a tribal elder.

I didn't hate this episode, but I didn't like it much either. I don't believe for a second that if he sang all the songs it would stop the pending flood, if there is one coming.

I don't know. I may revisit this episode.

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MyPeopleAreNordic

MyPeopleAreNordic

(edited)

I kept having trouble paying attention in the beginning. I'm not particularly vested in Kevin Sr. as a character or interested in the Australian Outback, so I was surprised that by about half way into the episode I was very engrossed. I like Grace. And the actor playing Kevin Sr. is doing a great job playing crazy, itinerant old white guy. 

I love Kevin Jr. & Nora, though. And I also watch for some Justin Theroux eye-candy, so this episode wasn't one my favorites. Nonetheless, I was totally engrossed in it once Sr woke up in the house.

Edited by MyPeopleAreNordic
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Stella

Stella

17 minutes ago, MyPeopleAreNordic said:

I was surprised that by about half way into the episode I was very engrossed.

The last 20 minutes turned the entire episode around for me.

I also am far more invested in Kevin, Nora etc. and hanging with Sr. wasn't my first choice. But the rather walkabout like aspect of his outback journey did become compelling.

And then Lindsay Duncan just killed it. And IMO Kevin Sr. became rather grounded while listening to her story. It was amazing.

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MyPeopleAreNordic

MyPeopleAreNordic

(edited)

I'm glad Kevin Sr. didn't get the last song, BTW (not glad the guy died, though). But if there is a flood, if it could indeed be stopped by some older white guy putting together the knowledge and the traditions of different groups of brown people is kind of offensive writing. 

Edited by MyPeopleAreNordic
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LydiaE

LydiaE

59 minutes ago, MyPeopleAreNordic said:

I'm glad Kevin Sr. didn't get the last song, BTW (not glad the guy died, though). But if there is a flood, if it could indeed be stopped by some older white guy putting together the knowledge and the traditions of different groups of brown people is kind of offensive writing. 

As there are far more "brown" people residing on earth than "white" people, an "older white guy" would have no choice but to study the traditions of many different peoples, especially if he were crunching time to save the earth from torrential flood. Your post gives off shades of The White Man's Burden.

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quangtran

quangtran

(edited)
8 hours ago, MyPeopleAreNordic said:

I'm glad Kevin Sr. didn't get the last song, BTW (not glad the guy died, though). But if there is a flood, if it could indeed be stopped by some older white guy putting together the knowledge and the traditions of different groups of brown people is kind of offensive writing. 

I'm certain that the writers wanted us to see Kevin Sr's actions as crazy and offensive, hence the episode title. And the only reason why the episode gave him some semblance of a happy ending is because he met someone who is just as crazy.

7 hours ago, LydiaE said:

As there are far more "brown" people residing on earth than "white" people, an "older white guy" would have no choice but to study the traditions of many different peoples, especially if he were crunching time to save the earth from torrential flood. Your post gives off shades of The White Man's Burden.

But that probably wouldn't be a problem if it wasn't for Kevin Sr insisting that Chris Sunday's got his own song wrong. He is warping culture just so he can be the messiah.

Edited by quangtran
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Macbeth

Macbeth

7 hours ago, WaltersHair said:

There's a problem I can't seem to get past with Kevin Sr. If you've ever worked with or known highly delusional people, it's incredibly frustrating and ultimately fruitless to buy into their delusions. I realize that in the Leftovers universe, Kevin might be a prophet, but my eyes just glazed over when he told his story about Tony the chicken. And talked and talked and talked complete nonsense. And killed a tribal elder.

I agree.  I love Scott Glenn - but I largely checked out of this episode due to the insanity of his character.  I checked back in during the middle of Grace's story - which was very tragic.

I was distracted by Lindsay Duncan as well.  She looks so much like an older version of Janel Moloney.  IMO.

Maybe I just couldn't focus or this episode couldn't hold my attention.

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maystone

maystone

I really liked the episode, but then I really like Scott Glenn, too. He's playing the hell out of the character of Kevin Garvey, Sr.; I just hope for the sake of everyone around Scott that he's not a method actor :)  It's fascinating to me how Kevin Sr. chooses to read the "signs" that he encounters. I can be pretty literal minded at times, so in KevS's position, I'd probably think that I just needed to get to Australia and sing "Itsy Bitsy Spider" to stop the coming flood since that's how I stopped the rain the first time.

Now I'm even more confused about the Book of Kevin. So it was actually KevinSr telling Matt about his own visions, and Matt mashing it up with what was happening with KevinJr, right? KevS predicted the flood; KevJ can't die (apparently). Matt takes those two occurrences and creates the Book about a coming apocalypse and a savior. KevS is an Old Testament/Hebrew Bible prophet and KevJ is a New Testament messiah. At least as far as I understand it.

 I really don't get the timing, though. Nora had the book in Don't Be Ridiculous. That scene was two days before Nora and Kevin head to Australia. Kevin Sr. gets the only copy of that same book by general delivery in the Outback somewhere in enough time for Scott to wander the wilderness (as biblical prophets are prone to do), stumble up against Grace's memorial cross and have Grace read the one page of the book and commence to build an ark. So KevinJr would have had to have given the book back to Matt before he and Nora left for Australia in order for Matt to have sent it to KevinSr in the Outback to set that whole scenario in motion. I just don't get it.

  • Love 4
maystone

maystone

10 hours ago, Mindthinkr said:

I had the same thought but wondered why he didn't mention it during his chat with Chris. Then I remembered that he told him that he didn't recall anything during that 2 week trip. Wonder what drug he ingested that lasted 2 weeks.  "What a long strange trip it's been". 

I believe it was called God's Tongue.

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Domestic Assassin

Domestic Assassin

Quote

 I really don't get the timing, though. Nora had the book in Don't Be Ridiculous. That scene was two days before Nora and Kevin head to Australia. Kevin Sr. gets the only copy of that same book by general delivery in the Outback somewhere in enough time for Scott to wander the wilderness (as biblical prophets are prone to do), stumble up against Grace's memorial cross and have Grace read the one page of the book and commence to build an ark. So KevinJr would have had to have given the book back to Matt before he and Nora left for Australia in order for Matt to have sent it to KevinSr in the Outback to set that whole scenario in motion. I just don't get it.

I don't know if Matt's lying about there only being one copy, or if Matt only sent him a section of the book (it was definitely smaller than what we've seen Kevin and Nora have).  But Senior received the book at least 3 weeks prior to Kevin and Nora heading to Australia.  I'm basing that on the Australian TV report from the night that Australian Kevin was drowned, which mentioned the upcoming 7th anniversary of the Sudden Departure. 

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Juliegirlj

Juliegirlj

I'm wondering if Matt's childhood leukemia has come back? The nosebleed, him wrapped in a sweaty blanket in the middle of the night... 

Also wonder if the man in the outback with the VW that set himself on fire is foreshadowing Kevin Sr having to kill his own son for the sake of humanity. The man asked Sr if he would "kill a baby to cure cancer". Matt and Sr also discussed Abraham sacrificing his son. 

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Pallas

Pallas

The Departure transformed Kevin Sr. from the seasoned, knowing man we got to know at his own surprise party, on the night of October 13. Kevin Jr. begins his toast by quoting a poem his father used to read him as a boy, where the universe explicitly states that it owes us nothing (no, not even an explanation for what will come the next day). Kevin's finishing nod to "family" is so touching, so much what everyone wants to believe is true for the Garveys and for themselves, it seems everyone but his father is taken in. When Kevin Jr. sneaks away for a smoke, Sr. follows and delivers to him this home truth:  "Every man rebels against the idea that this is fucking it...Fights windmills, saves fuckin'  damsels, all in search of greater purpose. You have no greater purpose. Because it is enough. So cut the shit, okay?"

Kevin Sr. was probably also speaking to himself, and not only his younger self. But he wasn't pretending anymore, he wasn't lying to anyone: he'd made his peace with the truth and his own lifelong struggle to accept it. This truth is what became deranged in Kevin Sr. the next day, as he stood in the street and watched his town come to an end. Take 2% away from it, and it is definitely not enough. Because what's left -- what's left behind to perceive and interpret it-minus-the-2% -- is not the same, at all.

Over his seven-year despair, Kevin Sr. regressed to windmill tilts and damsel rescues. He became the man who might kill a baby to cure cancer, or a snake, to save the world. And in that he feels he needs no assist from Kevin Jr., except as a long-ago babe, as in, "out of the mouths of." While he must have learned from Matt that Kevin Jr. has, so far, survived his own murder and two suicides, Kevin Sr. sees this as a fascinating sidebar of his own story, like the journey of the Magi to the manger. He wants no part of (what he last saw as) Kevin Jr.'s skepticism. Maybe more, he wants no part of how Kevin Jr.'s very presence pulls him away from the visions and back to the stark, impoverished it that remains, and contains his son. Drawn back to the world in the same way that Nora and Grace are drawn away from it. Drawn back like Laurie, leader of the Guilty Remnant, screaming "Jill!" to Jill's father. 

Parents can't be heroes. Not in the romantic or religious sense, not as people who turn away from this world to seek transcendence. They need to leave that to their children, or to someone else, anyway; they need to be more. 

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Blakeston

Blakeston

55 minutes ago, humbleopinion said:

Wouldn't Matt or Michael think of going to Kinko's to make a copy of The Book Of Kevin before sending off the only OTHER copy via FedEx?

Maybe take pix of each page in their phones?

I suspect Michael may have put it online. Matt swore that there were no other copies, but that doesn't mean he didn't put any content on the net.

As for Scott Glenn, I had no idea he played Jack Crawford in the Silence of the Lambs. What an incredible actor!

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Lunata

Lunata

(edited)

I'm in the minority here because I absolutely loved this episode. Watching Scott Glenn always brings memories of him back to 'The Right Stuff'. He showed some incredible acting skills in this episode, more than he was allowed to in that entire movie. The episode was a calamitous comedy from start to finish. From the casual tossing of Matt Jamison's new 'bible' into the trash to the death of the Chris Sunday by falling on him. Chris Sunday, the very last man in a long chain of aboriginals who possesses the last sacred aboriginal song that's vital in order to save everyone from the great flood, even though Chris Sunday tells him that the chant is meant to end a drought. "It's all a matter of interpretation" That says it all because Kevin's post hallucinogenic mind is compelling him that he must somehow prevent an apocalyptic flood and he's not about to hear a word about anything so common as a native song to the 'gods' to bring rain.

I thought that this episode showcased Scott Glenn's skills as something other than him as an under-unappreciated actor. He has acted in so many B-rated movies all his career that happily for him, he finally got an entire hour all to himself to show us 'the right stuff'.

1 hour ago, humbleopinion said:

Wouldn't Matt or Michael think of going to Kinko's to make a copy of The Book Of Kevin before sending off the only OTHER copy via FedEx?

Maybe take pix of each page in their phones?

That would have been logical and made some sense. but this series is anything but logical. Irony is the keystone here and the casual tossing away of 'the new bible' really spoke to the fact that someone like Matt Jamison who is a 'man of god', just can't create what he interprets as the word and intent of God.

Edited by Lunata
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meep.meep

meep.meep

8 hours ago, quangtran said:

I'm certain that the writers wanted us to see Kevin Sr's actions as crazy and offensive, hence the episode title. And the only reason why the episode gave him some semblance of a happy ending is because he met someone who is just as crazy.

But that probably wouldn't be a problem if it wasn't for Kevin Sr insisting that Chris Sunday's got his own song wrong. He is warping culture just so he can be the messiah.

Chris Sunday listened politely to the crazy man, and then was going to make use of him to fix the cooler on his roof.  Every other aboriginal person, from the police, to the office manager, to the ambulance attendant, loathed what he was trying to do.  I'm sure that Chris shared their viewpoint.

Kevin Sr . only threw away the book when he found out it wasn't about him.  He thought he was the important one.  Not his resurrecting son.

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scrb

scrb

Kevin Sr. went to Sydney for some reason, decided to go to the opera, met some guy who drugged him and took him to Perth.

Nora decides to to go Melbourne to follow up on being sent to be with her Departed family.

Australia is not a cheap place to visit on a whim.  Nora had some money but didn't she sink it all into the Jarden home?

Methinks the producers decided to blow the budget since they were given one more season, to get themselves a holiday Down Under.  Though so far, they haven't shown any scenes filmed in Sydney or Melbourne, which might be expensive to do or even get a filming license.

Maybe they're in some SoCal backlot, mocked up to look like rural Australia.

Lady Iris

Lady Iris

13 hours ago, Stella said:

The last 20 minutes turned the entire episode around for me.

I also am far more invested in Kevin, Nora etc. and hanging with Sr. wasn't my first choice. But the rather walkabout like aspect of his outback journey did become compelling.

And then Lindsay Duncan just killed it. And IMO Kevin Sr. became rather grounded while listening to her story. It was amazing.

He got the Australian walkabout John Locke never did. What is it with Damon Lindelof and Australia anyways? He's got a real hard on for that country.

 

15 hours ago, Macbeth said:

I couldn't make heads or tails of it.  Part of my problem - is that when Sr started to talk about the intricacies of what he was trying to accomplish - My mind piped in reminding me that "This is from the guy who brought you "Lost." - This is just a lot of useless information you will never need to know, will never retain, so don't even bother."

I felt the same exact way and felt a little frustrated over this. There's not many episodes left and I get bothered in the moment that none of whatever is happening will have a final payoff or purpose for taking up a whole hour of storytelling.

 

11 hours ago, Armchair Critic said:

The actress playing Grace really sold it, great acting. I was hoping Kevin Sr. would die, I guess watching 'Urban Cowboy' when I was a youngster has always colored my opinion against Scott Glenn. ;)

Hah! I forgot he played the bad guy that smacked Sissy around.

  • Love 6
Juliegirlj

Juliegirlj

Instead of asking Sr if he would "kill a baby to cure cancer", perhaps  outback VW guy ( that set himself afire) should have asked him if he would kill his own baby to save the world?! 

Is Kevin Sr slipping between different realities? After looking through Grace's frozen photo album in which there are photos of her adopted children, Kevin Sr comes across five doppelgängers of those same people as adults... and they are building an Arc! 

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Mindthinkr

Mindthinkr

Or Grace is building herself a identical family to replace the one that she lost. That makes sense but the timeline doesn't. I also asked earlier in the thread if Kevin Sr was hallucinating that ark scene.  They could be what would have happened had they lived and now his prophesy is breaking down. He's just not letting go of what he thinks is right. 

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Blakeston

Blakeston

10 hours ago, quangtran said:

But that probably wouldn't be a problem if it wasn't for Kevin Sr insisting that Chris Sunday's got his own song wrong. He is warping culture just so he can be the messiah.

Not to mention that he trespassed onto aboriginal lands, recorded a sacred song without permission, falsely claimed to be a tribal elder, and killed a tribal elder.

  • Love 5
stagmania

stagmania

5 hours ago, maystone said:

I really don't get the timing, though. Nora had the book in Don't Be Ridiculous. That scene was two days before Nora and Kevin head to Australia. Kevin Sr. gets the only copy of that same book by general delivery in the Outback somewhere in enough time for Scott to wander the wilderness (as biblical prophets are prone to do), stumble up against Grace's memorial cross and have Grace read the one page of the book and commence to build an ark. So KevinJr would have had to have given the book back to Matt before he and Nora left for Australia in order for Matt to have sent it to KevinSr in the Outback to set that whole scenario in motion. I just don't get it.

I'm pretty sure that it was a copy of only part of the book (remember, Matt lies constantly, so no surprise if copies of parts of it have been made), and Matt probably sent it before Kevin and Nora got the original copy. But it does seem that the second phone conversation came after Kevin Jr found out, because Matt seemed eager to get it back. 

3 hours ago, Lunata said:

I'm in the minority here because I absolutely loved this episode.

I liked it, too. It always takes me a little bit to process the single character showcase episodes. Sometimes I resent them in the moment because it means it's another week until I get to see anyone else. But they always hold up well as part of the complete season.

1 hour ago, scrb said:

Maybe they're in some SoCal backlot, mocked up to look like rural Australia.

They're definitely in Australia for real.

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quangtran

quangtran

1 hour ago, scrb said:

Methinks the producers decided to blow the budget since they were given one more season, to get themselves a holiday Down Under.  Though so far, they haven't shown any scenes filmed in Sydney or Melbourne, which might be expensive to do or even get a filming license.

Maybe they're in some SoCal backlot, mocked up to look like rural Australia.

This was only the first episode shot in Melbourne. If anything, that flashback of Kevin Sr on the departure day was likely shot in Melbourne but mocked up and blurred out to look like Mapleton New York.

10 minutes ago, stagmania said:

I'm pretty sure that it was a copy of only part of the book (remember, Matt lies constantly, so no surprise if copies of parts of it have been made), and Matt probably sent it before Kevin and Nora got the original copy. But it does seem that the second phone conversation came after Kevin Jr found out, because Matt seemed eager to get it back.

I'm pretty sure Matt isn't telling the truth when he says that there is only one copy, what with him always freely giving them away to Kevin's and them not likely ever returning them.

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LydiaE

LydiaE

2 hours ago, Blakeston said:

Not to mention that he trespassed onto aboriginal lands, recorded a sacred song without permission, falsely claimed to be a tribal elder, and killed a tribal elder.

Kevin Sr. is possibly deranged. The voices--either real or imagined-- instructed him to travel to Australia.  He then perceived he needed to procure ancient bits of wisdom to halt a catastrophic flood. That's all there was to it.

A man who is desperate, or crazy, doesn't give a flip about politics, sociology, political correctness, or whether he's trespassing on what is essentially a reservation. He's got tunnel vision. Politics are useless and tedious in an end of world scenario.

This is why the notion that a "white" man stealing wisdom from "brown" people is absurd. If Kevin Jrs mother happened to be a Black woman, I'm fairly certain Kevin Sr would still think Kevin Jr is some sort of messiah. 

The killing of the tribal elder was accidental, but Kevin Srs lack of emotion regarding the death proves that Kev Sr views individuals as a means to an end, not that he's a crazy white dude trying to steal the mojo of various races of people. He simply said he was looking for purpose.

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WaltersHair

WaltersHair

Quote

I'm pretty sure that it was a copy of only part of the book (remember, Matt lies constantly, so no surprise if copies of parts of it have been made), and Matt probably sent it before Kevin and Nora got the original copy. But it does seem that the second phone conversation came after Kevin Jr found out, because Matt seemed eager to get it back.

I think Michael has a secret copy on his computer. Remember when Kevin jr. dropped in expectantly at the church? Michael slammed his computer lid down fast to hide whatever he was working, on even though the book was sitting next to him bound in leather. Not p0rn, but a copy of the New New Testament perhaps?

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AlwaysWatching

AlwaysWatching

Here's Chris Sunday ( David Gulpilil ) as another Chris.  He was amazing in this strange movie. I couldn't help but think of this during Kevin Sr.'s walkabout. 

At first, I didn't think I would like the episode when I realized it was all on Kevin Sr.  But like many others here, I got caught up in it and loved the last 20 minutes or so.

On you tube, right after the above clip of the trailer, Peter Weir, the director, has some really interesting things to say that I think can be seen in The Leftovers.  The only think I'm totally in the dark on, is the fact that The Leftovers comes from a book I haven't read.  I suppose that's a good thing for me if they are going to make the ending like the one in the book...or maybe the TV show left the book long ago.  Either way, it works for me. I love creepy stuff like this. Oh, and I mean creepy in good way. Obviously I'm not using the the right word. eh

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