S05.E09: IHOP

[MisterBluxom]

I got the idea the scene with Martha was preparing us for the end of the show.

The KGB has destroyed Martha's life. How much different would it have been to have put a bullet in her brain?

I think that scene is designed to prepare us for the end when P & E are discovered and imprisoned and many of the other members of her org are all put away forever. Of course, I could easily be wrong about that. But the scene provides good justification for the destruction of the "Directorate S" program in American and prevent many of the audience to object about that.

[jjj]

What an improvement it made that this episode was a Paige-free zone.

And the only wheat was in the pancakes at IHOP.

I am so glad I did not read the capsule description in advance -- I really prefer to let the episodes roll out their surprises without any advance expectations. 

[NitneLiun]

I suspect the actor who plays Henry is being written out of the show. What better way than to send him to a boarding school in NH? We will hear Henry's name, but never see him.

As for the character, I don't see Henry as arrogant or entitled.  He's smart, independent, capable, and is starting to realize that he has great potential - all without the help of his largely neglectful parents.  I'd say he has turned out quite well thus far, given the nature of his upbringing.

Enjoyed the scene with Martha and Gabriel. Martha has been in the Soviet Union probably about a year but looks like she's aged ten years.

I have a feeling Tuan is going to be sacrificed for The Cause.  His will be a regrettable but necessary death in the advancement of glorious international socialism.

[DaBigDave]

Re: Henry and school, I suppose the show is still in 1984, Because Thomas Jefferson (the Fairfax Magnet School that produced my deadly HS & College Quizbowl Nemesis opened in 1985. I have to assume parents in the NOVA suburbs (who care more about their sons than the Jennings) would be well aware of it and just pushed him toward what would rapidly become one of the US's best High Schools. Especially for Science and Tech, what with them being Russian spies.

I know this is probably writing the actor out, but he should just be applying to TJ.

[chocolatine]

I loved the subtle shade Henry was throwing at his parents - "you won't have to drive me anywhere" - since P&E have barely cared about him or his whereabouts in the past couple of years. LOL at Philip's description of the boarding school as "a really fancy orphanage".

On the one hand I agree with the "poor Martha" sentiments, but as I was watching her prepare her dinner, two things that occurred to me were that she has a kitchenette *inside* her apartment (i.e. she's not sharing it with the whole floor/building), and that she has sour cream for her baked potato. Those may seem like small things, but they were not to be taken for granted in '80s Soviet Union. The KGB is "taking care" of her, in a way.

I'm really loving Moscow Oleg and his weltschmerz, though I have a bad feeling about how this is going to end for him. I hope Costa Ronin gets a supporting actor Emmy nom this year.

Stan was an idiot going to Gaad's widow. What did he think she was going to say, "sure, whatevs, don't investigate my husband's death?"

[TheBride]

Well....that was a bore. 

[EtheltoTillie]

3 hours ago, Moose135 said:

He never came home that night.  When she got home, she told Phillip that she waited until 3am and he didn't show up.

But they should have questioned him about where he was that other night. Was he implying he was doing the same phone calling thing?  Did they reveal that they knew he was missing the previous night?  

[TheBride]

2 hours ago, MissBluxom said:

I got the idea the scene with Martha was preparing us for the end of the show.

The KGB has destroyed Martha's life. How much different would it have been to have put a bullet in her brain?

I think that scene is designed to prepare us for the end when P & E are discovered and imprisoned and many of the other members of her org are all put away forever. Of course, I could easily be wrong about that. But the scene provides good justification for the destruction of the "Directorate S" program in American and prevent many of the audience to object about that.

I think it represented how little the Soviets had to offer anyone, particularly with the implosion of their economy in the arms race. She was to be treated with "great respect" and that meant having a ratty apartment paid for. Martha's plot line is arguably the best in the show.

[TheBride]

1 hour ago, chocolatine said:

I loved the subtle shade Henry was throwing at his parents - "you won't have to drive me anywhere" - since P&E have barely cared about him or his whereabouts in the past couple of years. LOL at Philip's description of the boarding school as "a really fancy orphanage".

On the one hand I agree with the "poor Martha" sentiments, but as I was watching her prepare her dinner, two things that occurred to me were that she has a kitchenette *inside* her apartment (i.e. she's not sharing it with the whole floor/building), and that she has sour cream for her baked potato. Those may seem like small things, but they were not to be taken for granted in '80s Soviet Union. The KGB is "taking care" of her, in a way.

I'm really loving Moscow Oleg and his weltschmerz, though I have a bad feeling about how this is going to end for him. I hope Costa Ronin gets a supporting actor Emmy nom this year.

Stan was an idiot going to Gaad's widow. What did he think she was going to say, "sure, whatevs, don't investigate my husband's death?"

Yes, through Marsha's story line they are showing how little the Soviets had towards the end of the cold war--brought about by the arms race. She was told she would have a great reception and be taken care of. Ha! Fried (whatever it was) from a can and a ratty apartment. I do think that Oleg is also a great story line. Tuan is a bore and Stan is getting rather flat himself. I'm sure Henry isn't being written out--I think he's been recruited by some agency. Paige is no where to be found--maybe the writers realized she flat-lined in terms of interest!

[Christina]

I find the Martha storyline to be one of the best of the show and think Alison Wright nails it, but don't feel sorry for "Poor Martha." She was mislead and thought she was doing the right thing for the FBI by passing things to Clarke, especially files that were left out and not put away securely, something she complained about and her complaints fell on deaf ears.

But the Martha character started out independant and strong and ended up needy and desperate. She was willing to do anything for Clarke and she would gladly accept his crumbs. When the show started, Martha was dating Stan's partner, was strong and independent, and was competent at her job. Clarke shows up and she turns to putty in his hands. I know that he was seducing and manipulating her to get her to that point, but have trouble feeling sorry for her because I think she was written as a miserly spinster who ignored huge warning signs to get to spend one night a week with a man. That character shift in personalities between pre-Clarke, during-Clark, and after Clark make me want to shake her and get her to admit all the warning signs and acknowledge that she purposely ignored them so that she could keep Clarke. She became eye-rollingly stupid and original Martha would have seen they weren't compatible like Phillip's current conquest.

I'm going to be very upset if Henry gets written out. If that is what is going on, I hope it's because he has a new project out there and needed to be off this show. His IMDB page shows he has two movies in post-production that will be released this year. Maybe someone else saw his potential that was wasted on this show in favor of Paige's storyline. He had a broken leg in real life last season, which resulted in them always having him sitting when he was in a scene. This season, he's just not there. 

[dr pepper]

I've made a decision. If i ever find myself in charge of a company, i'm going to make sure we have at least the appearance of doing some important government work. That way, when i put out a job opening, i'll get some spies. And then i'll know i've got some incredibly productive and competent workers, who really know how to manage time and multitask.

[vb68]

Yay for breaks from Paige and all things wheat! We didn't even see poor man McConnaughey doing his tai chi.

I'm not sure if I was more shocked by a Paige-free ep or that Philip and Elizabeth had some actual lines of dialogue about running their business.

I don't like Tuan and do not trust him for a second. He's hiding something . After Elizabeth noted he was lonely, I was fully expecting them to track him to a strip club or being with a hooker. Something to symbolize he is older than he looks.

Quote

Much more enjoyed time with Kimmie and Tuan (awwww! He's not a sociopath!), 

I think that's very generous. He seems like he would love physically hurting and/or torturing Pascha for being weak. 

I wasn't sure what Gabriel was expecting or hoping for with Martha. He seemed genuinely happy to see her when she opened the door.  I can't help thinking he was trying to offer himself up as kind of a companion  He's lonely , too. Just a vibe I got. But the bloom is off the rose for Martha. She's more or less accepted her life, but she doesn't need Gabriel rubbing her nose in it.  That's the way I took her reaction.

I still can't believe Stan. His loyalty and point of view are so twisted right now. He really should be transferred or even fired. That's a pretty important job for someone  who is that flaky.

[MisterBluxom]

2 hours ago, chocolatine said:

I loved the subtle shade Henry was throwing at his parents - "you won't have to drive me anywhere" - since P&E have barely cared about him or his whereabouts in the past couple of years. LOL at Philip's description of the boarding school as "a really fancy orphanage".

On the one hand I agree with the "poor Martha" sentiments, but as I was watching her prepare her dinner, two things that occurred to me were that she has a kitchenette *inside* her apartment (i.e. she's not sharing it with the whole floor/building), and that she has sour cream for her baked potato. Those may seem like small things, but they were not to be taken for granted in '80s Soviet Union. The KGB is "taking care" of her, in a way.

I'm really loving Moscow Oleg and his weltschmerz, though I have a bad feeling about how this is going to end for him. I hope Costa Ronin gets a supporting actor Emmy nom this year.

Stan was an idiot going to Gaad's widow. What did he think she was going to say, "sure, whatevs, don't investigate my husband's death?"

Forgive my intrusion. But for any other readers who were curious as to the meaning of "weltschmerz", it means "a feeling of melancholy and world-weariness".

[Ina123]

6 hours ago, Knuckles said:

And finally Martha. How I love Alison Wright. Let me count the ways...great in Feud, even better in Sneaky Pete...but best of all as utterly betrayed Martha, no longer confused, no longer a pawn, now utterly clear that she has been used, abandoned and would have had a happier life, and better meals, in a Federal prison. At least her parents could visit her, and know her whereabouts. And she could hope to get out one day. This is a life sentence. Martha's life was more frightening and bleak than Dmitri in his frozen jail cell.

This.

[NitneLiun]

The Soviet Union: Come for the workers' control of the means of production, stay for the all-you-can-eat sour cream.

[TheBride]

1 hour ago, Christina said:

 

I'm going to be very upset if Henry gets written out.

I don't think Henry will be written out...I think Paige is the one to get the boot! Henry may be the "next gen kgb" that becomes a set of sleepers in US intel agencies. SOMEONE in the KGB knew Henry was demonstrating high intelligence at school....could it be Stan's girlfriend? I think that's a possibility.

Edited May 3, 2017 by TheBride

[RedHawk]

8 hours ago, TimWil said:

I see a Best Guest Emmy nomination for Allison Wright for her stunning performance. Yes, it may have only been one scene but...what a scene.

Finally dawned on me who Kimmie reminded me of...anyone remember that young British actress Emily Lloyd who was so good in Wish You Were Here, did a few American movies and then disappeared? They look a lot alike.  

Didn't Tuan mention a brother visiting from South Africa early on this season?

Yes, she's very much like Emily Lloyd.

Hans's sister was to visit from South Africa.  

[Ina123]

I think all this jumping through hoops and investigation PGU are putting Oleg through is prepping him to be an easy mark for the CIA to recruit. He's so over that $hit.

Just maybe the PGU are digging into every facet of his life in the US to make sure he is completely clean with the intent to send him back to work on recruiting Stan. Meanwhile, Stan is being asked to back off his threats so that they can recruit Oleg. So, I can see Oleg back in the US (oh, please bring back the Rezidentura) to work Stan and the CIA using that encounter as pressure for Stan to recruit Oleg.

Edited May 3, 2017 by Ina123

[JFParnell]

If anyone remembers the movie Stand By Me, there's a scene where the boys are around a campfire, talking at night about TV shows they like, and Gordie agrees about the show Wagon Train: "Yeah, Wagon Train's a cool show. But did you ever notice they never get anywhere? They just keep ... wagon training." 

That's what this show feels like so often! Ack. Yeah, I know -- character-driven, great acting, etc. Agreed. But still.. you know what I mean ... stop the wagons and have a shootout or something once in awhile :) I wish individual episodes would feel more re-watchable (I know they do to some of y'all, but they don't to me; don't think I've ever rewatched one) instead of the whole season being one long buildup to 12 minutes in the season finale. Breaking Bad, for ex, did both: You could rewatch the eps but they still made things go BOOM at the end.

Glad the wheat angle is on the way out! The only way crops would have been interesting is if a group of dead baseball players appeared to P & E out in that field.

Boarding school?? THAT's the big Henry reveal??!! Can it really be? After all this wondering "do they have something big up their sleeve for poor disappearing Henry? Has he been snooping around? Does he KNOW?" Nope -- kid just wants to wear a suit and tie and better himself. Yay Henry, good kid, but ... eh... the writers have just thrown up their hands with him, I guess. "Send him away!" Remember in Seinfeld when Jerry and George couldn't get Elaine in their pilot script because they "couldn't keep track" of the people in the scenes? Maybe that's what happened with Henry. :)

Good for the kid who plays Henry though - he finally got more than 1 line of dialogue!

Stan is such a weak, weak doofus of a man. Nice try, attempting to get Gaad's widow's absolution in advance of your decision. You putz. Glad she handed him his head.

I am in the "poor Martha" camp. She only ever wanted a normal life with fake-Clark. A very human need for love after a life spent without it. But P&E's job is manipulation. Guilty about it or not, it's what they do. Though with increasing unease, it seems.

Oh that's right - no Paige! I didn't really think about it at the time. They really need to figure out where to go with her for this/next season. I like her, though, and feel bad for her. And she's not Dana Brody yet, is she?? :)

[benteen]

5 hours ago, NitneLiun said:

I suspect the actor who plays Henry is being written out of the show. What better way than to send him to a boarding school in NH? We will hear Henry's name, but never see him.

You might be right but I can't imagine not seeing him again.  It would be a disappointment otherwise because I want to see his reaction when he learns the truth about his parents.

Question...what did Gabriel's friend, the priest, say to Philip during that scene?

[teddysmom]

If Tuan's alibi is true, that is beyond lame as plots go.
I wanted Henry to yell "I'm being written out of the show, you HAVE to let me go to St Edwards!!! I can't stay in that fucking room forever! "

[EtheltoTillie]

48 minutes ago, benteen said:

 

Question...what did Gabriel's friend, the priest, say to Philip during that scene?

Really, this priest thing was inexplicable.  He's a KBG agent posing as a Russian Orthodox priest?  Or a Russian Orthodox priest who was recruited to be a spy?  Huh?  Why are there months between Gabriel's departure and the arrival of a new handler?  Anyone understand this?

[SunnyBeBe]

If I had more time, I'd go find my posts about how Henry and Page should go to boarding schools.  I know I had one about Henry when it was revealed he was a math whiz, though, I thought it would be in CA. One down, one to go! lol Seriously, this frees them up to not have to make accommodations for Henry and makes it a more SPY Friendly home, but, they'll lose their regular contact with with Stan's house.

I agree with those who question WHY OH WHY did P&E not question Tuan about where he was until after 3:00 a.m. the night before when E waited at the house???  To me, that's a huge issue.  I do trust E's instinct on when people are lying.  She's a professional and all, but,........I do not trust Tuan and think he could be dangerous. Why would E think he was being truthful?  I didn't find his story even half way believable.  AND, even if he is telling the truth....WHAT he is doing places them all in danger, since, it's a security risk.  

I don't understand how the FBI or CIA think that Oleg can help them find out who killed Gaad.  How do they think that Oleg could help them find out anything about KGB activity?  He seems to be in a pretty dismal job of tracking food distribution violations.  How would he have access to who killed Gaad?

I also don't understand the story of how Oleg's mother went to prison.  According to Oleg's father, they were married at the time.  So, as a married couple, wife goes to prison and then after she's released, HUSBAND become the Minister of Transportation?  Was there some big surge in his political career after his wife is released from prison?  Can someone explain how that would be likely? 

[benteen]

I get the impression that Oleg's investigation is going to lead him to dealing with the Russian mob.

[MisterBluxom]

37 minutes ago, GussieK said:

Really, this priest thing was inexplicable.  He's a KBG agent posing as a Russian Orthodox priest?  Or a Russian Orthodox priest who was recruited to be a spy?  Huh?  Why are there months between Gabriel's departure and the arrival of a new handler?  Anyone understand this?

The thing that intrigues me is why P told the priest he could not meet with him on a regular basis. Anyone care to guess what that could be about?

Also, the priest seemed most genuine when he urged P to pray. So, my guess would be that he really is a priest. How could he possibly be involved with the KGB? Maybe he has some relatives back home who are being threatened with harm?

I really react badly to this kind of stuff. It seems so probable that it's just another stupid red herring. I remember several others. Remember that lady with the drunken abusive husband who tried to interfere in the negotiations between Ellizabeth and his wife? That plot line had fantastic possibilities and I would have loved to have seen E kick his ass or something equivalent. But it was just dropped without a word of explanation? I thought that was just awful! Just pitiful. Shame. Shame.

10 minutes ago, benteen said:

I get the impression that Oleg's investigation is going to lead him to dealing with the Russian mob.

Very possible. But after all the talk about people who are more powerful than others, I'd guess it would be a faction of the govt. or some other group that we would be surprised to learn just how powerful they can be. Maybe even the CIA or some other country's intelligence group?

It's another strange plot line and IMHO, it's just too late in the series to be opening new plot lines that go nowhere. Just give us some action, please? Please?

Edited May 3, 2017 by MissBluxom

[shura]

15 minutes ago, GussieK said:

Really, this priest thing was inexplicable.  He's a KBG agent posing as a Russian Orthodox priest?  Or a Russian Orthodox priest who was recruited to be a spy?  Huh?  Why are there months between Gabriel's departure and the arrival of a new handler?  Anyone understand this?

I thought he was a KGB informant rather than a spy. It was weird though, why did he call the meeting? He didn't really say anything there that seemed to be urgent. His Eminence drinks? Well, I assume he is Russian, so yeah, valuable intel there. It looked like he, too, was lonely after Gabriel's departure and just wanted to talk to someone. And Philip was, understandably, like "Yeah, sorry, man, I've got enough friends. Also, if we meet again, could you maybe wear something less conspicuous?"

Funny how Martha is apparently entertaining the concept of a "suitable" man she could be introduced to in Moscow. Wonder what that would look like.

1 hour ago, JFParnell said:

Boarding school?? THAT's the big Henry reveal??!! Can it really be? After all this wondering "do they have something big up their sleeve for poor disappearing Henry? Has he been snooping around? Does he KNOW?" Nope -- kid just wants to wear a suit and tie and better himself.

And Chris is going there, don't forget that. Is it common for someone to write a letter of recommendation like that for a kid without touching base with his parents?

[MisterBluxom]

6 minutes ago, shura said:

I thought he was a KGB informant rather than a spy. It was weird though, why did he call the meeting? He didn't really say anything there that seemed to be urgent. His Eminence drinks? Well, I assume he is Russian, so yeah, valuable intel there. It looked like he, too, was lonely after Gabriel's departure and just wanted to talk to someone. And Philip was, understandably, like "Yeah, sorry, man, I've got enough friends. Also, if we meet again, could you maybe wear something less conspicuous?"

Funny how Martha is apparently entertaining the concept of a "suitable" man she could be introduced to in Moscow. Wonder what that would look like.

And Chris is going there, don't forget that. Is it common for someone to write a letter of recommendation like that for a kid without touching base with his parents?

Things just keep getting stranger and stranger and it really bothers me that so many things get terminated without any explanation for the audience. I'd love to talk to the show runners and ask them, "Please, could you just knock it off,  would you please? I did not understand why Gabriel didn't ask Martha, "OK. I won't bother you again. But if you should ever wish to talk things over or allow me to introduce you to some people whose friendship you might enjoy, may I give you my address and phone number so that you can call me if you ever want to?

How could that possibly ever hurt either one of them?

Edited May 3, 2017 by MissBluxom

[stagmania]

10 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

The Martha and Gabriel scene was incredible...and sad.  Of course it was only a matter of time before Martha put the pieces together.  For both her drab life and her drab clothes I bet she thought about it a lot.  My guess is that she wishes she had chosen prison.

I wanted to punch Gabriel for trying to manipulate her with that Clark bs. Glad she finally seems to have snapped out of it, though of course it's far too late now. I'm honestly surprised they brought her back again, but this show never did like letting go of characters.

10 hours ago, Knuckles said:

And Kimmie returns...with a birthday cake and a weird interest in a not very sexy old guy...and no action. I am not really buying it at all. She would be bored with him by now...especially if he's bypassing seducing her with some sad born-again line. Exactly how is Philip keeping this going. 

Philip has become more of a surrogate father for her (and thank goodness for that). You can tell because she talks about her father and the many ways he disappoints her in pretty much all of their scenes.

10 hours ago, Cosmosgravitation said:

What school does Kimberly go to? Maybe Henry's not being written out, maybe we're just getting that Henry/Kimberly hook up people were hoping for.

Storylines like this only belong in fanfic, so I really doubt it.

10 hours ago, willco said:

And all because she fell in love, sure she told "Clark" things she should not have, but who hasn't done dumb things for love ? 

Martha committed treason against her country, quite knowingly. She's a very sympathetic character, but she did very bad things that ruined lives. She seems to have finally dropped the romantic illusions about what she did; we should too.

19 minutes ago, MissBluxom said:

The thing that intrigues me is why P told the priest he could not meet with him on a regular basis. Anyone care to guess what that could be about?

I assumed it was simply that Philip doesn't have any time to take on a new asset. 

[Chaos Theory]

There is only one more season.  There is no reason to write Henry out at this juncture.  My guess is that as Paige falls deeper into Socialism Henry will get pulled by the allure of Capitalism.  The school will be everything P&E are fighting against in the purest deepest sense.  

Edited May 3, 2017 by Chaos Theory

[Dev F]

35 minutes ago, MissBluxom said:

I really react badly to this kind of stuff. It seems so probable that it's just another stupid red herring. I remember several others. Remember that lady with the drunken abusive husband who tried to interfere in the negotiations between Ellizabeth and his wife? That plot line had fantastic possibilities and I would have loved to have seen E kick his ass or something equivalent. But it was just dropped without a word of explanation?

It was dropped, or at least ended, but it wasn't without explanation. Lisa fell off the wagon after her husband left her, then tried to convince Elizabeth that they should turn themselves in, so Liz had to murder her. It was one of the final straws before Gabriel's "Oh, shit, you guys need a break" decision and the flash forward last season.

[RedHawk]

This is becoming very book-version "Game of Thrones" with all the characters and plotlines, and like George R.R. Martin, the writers keep adding more!

Though I enjoyed this episode, liked the scene with the priest, and was pleased to get scenes with teen characters who aren't deadly dull.

[SunnyBeBe]

33 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

 

Given all of the innocent lives that they have destroyed, sending P & E to prison would just be letting them off easy. 

What about Stan?  He's killed too.  He has even admitted it.  And his victim was an  innocent person too.    I suppose the FBI is just fine with it. 

Edited May 3, 2017 by SunnyBeBe

[MisterBluxom]

39 minutes ago, Dev F said:

It was dropped, or at least ended, but it wasn't without explanation. Lisa fell off the wagon after her husband left her, then tried to convince Elizabeth that they should turn themselves in, so Liz had to murder her. It was one of the final straws before Gabriel's "Oh, shit, you guys need a break" decision and the flash forward last season.

OMG! I never realized that. Thank you so much for providing that explanation.

55 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

There is only one more season.  There is no reason to write Henry out at this juncture.  My guess is that as Paige falls deeper into Socialism Henry will get pulled by the allure of Capitalism.  The school will be everything P&E are fighting against in the purest deepest sense.  

Heh. Heh. So Henry will develop into an APK clone? (Alex P. Keaton).

1 hour ago, teddysmom said:

If Tuan's alibi is true, that is beyond lame as plots go.
I wanted Henry to yell "I'm being written out of the show, you HAVE to let me go to St Edwards!!! I can't stay in that fucking room forever! "

Heh. Heh. Well done. Very funny post!

[MisterBluxom]

3 hours ago, JFParnell said:

I am in the "poor Martha" camp. She only ever wanted a normal life with fake-Clark. A very human need for love after a life spent without it. But P&E's job is manipulation. Guilty about it or not, it's what they do. Though with increasing unease, it seems.

Oh that's right - no Paige! I didn't really think about it at the time. They really need to figure out where to go with her for this/next season. I like her, though, and feel bad for her. And she's not Dana Brody yet, is she?? :)

I remember when Martha's plot line was current and very hot, I couldn't wait until the next episode to see what would happen.

But now, it feels like withdrawl from some addictive drug. It feels terrible.  I just don't want to see any more of this part of the story. Someone upthread suggested Martha would have been better off goint to prison instead of living this kind of lifestyle in Moscow. (I assume she is in Moscow?).

Prison is very much worse than Martha's lifestyle. When you are in prison, you have no freedom at all. You get up when you are told to get up. You go to bed when told to. You eat your meals when told and you eat the food you are given - despite the fact that it may well be the very worst food you have ever experienced.  After a very short time, I would think people would get real fed up, really fed up.

So many people who live in Moscow may seem to think she has it great. But I would guess they have never lived outside the USSR. They don't know what it's like to live in freedom. They don't understand the value of freedom. My guess is that after having experienced several families sharing a small one-bedroom apt, that Martha must be incredibly happy living in her apt and having it all to herself. They just don't know what it's like to live in the USA and so I think they just don't understand.

It's all an incredible tragedy and hopefully, will provide an excellent lesson to any American thinking of engaging in treason. It can easily turn out to be a terrible decision with terrible consequences.  Ugh! The whole thing just makes my skin crawl.

[EtheltoTillie]

1 hour ago, RedHawk said:

This is becoming very book-version "Game of Thrones" with all the characters and plotlines, and like George R.R. Martin, the writers keep adding more!

Though I enjoyed this episode, liked the scene with the priest, and was pleased to get scenes with teen characters who aren't deadly dull.

An interesting analogy to Game of Thrones.  This is getting a bit like that.   I never read the GOT books, but I had to give up the show after three seasons because I just couldn't care about the multiple plot lines anymore.  It was like a bad daytime soap, where characters end up marrying and divorcing and changing partners over the years and no one remembers that they used to hate each other. 

18 minutes ago, MissBluxom said:

 

Prison is very much worse than Martha's lifestyle. When you are in prison, you have no freedom at all. You get up when you are told to get up. You go to bed when told to. You eat your meals when told and you eat the food you are given - despite the fact that it may well be the very worst food you have ever experienced.  After a very short time, I would think people would get real fed up, really fed up.

 

The only thing is it would have been finite and she would have been in the US and could see her parents.  And maybe not hard time (look at another Martha--Martha Stewart).  Maybe with some cooperation she would have gotten a reduced sentence or even witness protection.  Now she is in a life sentence, the equivalent of witness protection in a strange country.  She would never have turned in Clarke, though.  She loved him.

Edited May 3, 2017 by GussieK

[sistermagpie]

10 hours ago, Valmarmar said:

Thought E would have questioned Tuan about where he was until 3 am (or after) the night she dropped by.  Did I miss it?

I wondered this too. So was he going to Pennsylvania several times a week? How many times can he use that excuse? How many sick kids does this family have?

10 hours ago, Erin9 said:

And because I can't say it too many times tonight: I hated Stan. What a thoughtless, self centered bastard to seek out Gaad's wife like that. 

LOL! Love the wife pointing out that none of the FBI has been there for her, and first it sounds like he's there to just keep her informed or something, but turns out he just wants her blessing to do what he wants to do. It's not like he asks her what Gaad would want, he just asks for confirmation. To which he gets a big Hamlet's ghost AVENGE ME answer. LOL!

Especially fitting given that Stan screwed over Gaad's career working with Oleg and killing Vlad.

10 hours ago, Dev F said:

Now she's starting and stopping investigations based on little more than what her own intuition is telling her -- when that intuition seems to have more to do with her feelings about her family than what's actually going on with Tuan and his operation.

I don't know if that's quite the same, though. She did have reasons for why she thought it didn't feel right.

8 hours ago, NitneLiun said:

I suspect the actor who plays Henry is being written out of the show. What better way than to send him to a boarding school in NH? We will hear Henry's name, but never see him.

 

I don't. It just seems like a stupid idea to create a kid and then need to write him out later. (Yes, it happened on Happy Days, but Henry was obviously planned out here.) They created Henry for a reason. If they didn't want to use him they wouldn't have to send him to boarding school. They don't have to have him onscreen just because he's there.

8 hours ago, NitneLiun said:

As for the character, I don't see Henry as arrogant or entitled.  He's smart, independent, capable, and is starting to realize that he has great potential - all without the help of his largely neglectful parents.  I'd say he has turned out quite well thus far, given the nature of his upbringing.

 

He has not done this largely without the help of his largely neglectful parents. His parents are not neglectful. As I said earlier, there's been plenty of times when they've mentioned or done stuff themselves regarding his schooling. Yes, he's turned out well--and had a perfectly stable, loving upbringing in which he did it. He's not some kid escaping from a crack den, he's a teenager with ambition who looks down on his parents' small business and finds other lives more interesting than his own. Parenting is boring so we don't see it and Henry hasn't had any reason for heart-to-hearts.

8 hours ago, chocolatine said:

I loved the subtle shade Henry was throwing at his parents - "you won't have to drive me anywhere" - since P&E have barely cared about him or his whereabouts in the past couple of years. LOL at Philip's description of the boarding school as "a really fancy orphanage".

 

I really don't see how it's shade to refer to the fact that his parents, like all his parents, chauffeur him around to activities. The creators themselves have said that the whole "Where's Henry? Oh, fine" is based on how life was for themselves growing up in the 80s when parents didn't set up playdates and call you to make sure you weren't where you're supposed to be. I think Henry's just a normal kid genuinely making his case for school based on stuff his parents do for him.

Note that Stan is not the one driving Matthew to look at colleges, because Sandra does all the day-to-day crap that gets taken for granted while whatever Stan does with either Matthew or Henry is praised as something special.

The shade Henry threw was more in previous eps, like when he rolled his eyes at the idea that he'd be interested in working at a travel agency. Just as Paige thought her parents weren't interested in world events, Henry thinks his parents are boring and not on the same level as guys with potential like him.

6 hours ago, Christina said:

But the Martha character started out independant and strong and ended up needy and desperate. She was willing to do anything for Clarke and she would gladly accept his crumbs.

I disagree. As a secretary at the FBI Martha would have been specifically warned in detail about new romances showing up in her life and asking her about her job. She chose the excitement of Clark from the beginning. She didn't start out more independent, she was always making her own choices--not all of which were needy. I honestly don't see how her character changed at all. Clark just made it harder to pretend she wasn't prioritizing the romance over everything else. She was already eagerly looking forward to his visits in the pilot. 

5 hours ago, vb68 said:

I think that's very generous. He seems like he would love physically hurting and/or torturing Pascha for being weak. 

 

The bullies at school would probably also do that without being sociopaths. If he cares about his foster brother, he's not a sociopath.

5 hours ago, vb68 said:

I still can't believe Stan. His loyalty and point of view are so twisted right now. He really should be transferred or even fired. That's a pretty important job for someone  who is that flaky.

IKR? How much trouble has this guy been?

1 hour ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I don't understand how the FBI or CIA think that Oleg can help them find out who killed Gaad.  How do they think that Oleg could help them find out anything about KGB activity?  He seems to be in a pretty dismal job of tracking food distribution violations.  How would he have access to who killed Gaad?

They don't know that. I think they just know he's KGB. And they don't specifically want him to find out who killed Gaad, they were just reminding Stan that Gaad was a reason that he should want to recruit KGB agents rather than protect them because who knows where it could lead?

1 hour ago, MissBluxom said:

The thing that intrigues me is why P told the priest he could not meet with him on a regular basis. Anyone care to guess what that could be about?

Philip's not in the market to adopt any more stray puppies is what it's about, imo.

1 hour ago, MissBluxom said:

But it was just dropped without a word of explanation? I thought that was just awful! Just pitiful. Shame. Shame.

No it wasn't. The guy ran off with the money, the woman went back to drinking and Elizabeth had to kill her. The priest may or may not show up again, but if he doesn't I think he was just a nice reminder of all the other people out there who depend on their spy contacts to stave off loneliness. 

1 hour ago, shura said:

And Chris is going there, don't forget that. Is it common for someone to write a letter of recommendation like that for a kid without touching base with his parents?

LOL! On this show it's common. First Pastor Tim graciously accepts $600.00 from a kid he'll later back-up on the baptism ambush, now we've got Ivy League dad offering to write recommendation letters to his prep school on behalf of a kid whose parents would be paying tuition. (Though of course Henry assumes he can get a scholarship because do you not get how smart he is?)

43 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

I was hoping that Henry would announce to his parents that he is gay.  P & E really don't know what is going on with Henry, and given the way that this series is written, they act like they don't much care. 

I think they act like people who care but don't see the social life of eighth graders as something that should be their priority. They've been curious but not prying about what's been going on with him all season, what more do they have to do to show an interest? Sit at his feet while he plays video games in case he turns his head from the screen? Their conversations about him are generally affectionate but hands-off.

As to where the Henry thing is going, I have no idea, but if the paltry crumbs about Philip's past mean anything, he seems to have been concentrating on the whole feast/famine aspect of things. Elizabeth seemed perfectly happy to hand Henry over to the sons of senators who act as waiters, but this was the second time Philip's drawn a comparison between all he has now and what he didn't have then. And from his reaction to the brochure from Henry's school his conclusion doesn't seem to be that it's better to have more, period. And if he's thinking about the son he's never met I can't imagine he's happy to have Henry out of the house.

I would like to think this would lead to some interesting parent/child stuff (specifically father/son) since this is one of those rare moments where it's not so much about spying but simply about immigrant/poor parents dealing with American/middle class kids.

What is funny is that Henry's pushing this school as the place where children of the elite go without knowing that he actually is one of them. I mean, on one hand his parents come from nothing. But otoh, they actually are the elite in their country. There's probably kids of American intelligence at that school who are heading for the same career. Henry actually comes from the same world of international intrigue, high achievement and importance, he just doesn't know it.

[tennisgurl]

A whole episode without Paige! I'm not a Paige hater, but I'm totally fine with her and her worried eyebrows taking a break from the story every once in awhile, so we can spend more time with other (more interesting) characters. Plus, Philip and Elizabeth can actually talk about their travel agent job! I honestly forgot they actually did work at that agency beyond just hanging out in the backroom complaining about family stuff and mission complications.

What's the opposite of recruitment tools? Because this show is basically anti-recruitment for intelligence work, on any side of any conflict. Everyone involved seems to just become a sad, beaten down cog in a giant machine that they can hardly even comprehend, or they die violently and forgotten by their own cause.

The further, depressing adventures of Poor Martha continue. I cant believe we got to see a scene between Martha and Gabriele in Moscow, you spoil us, show! Even if it was only one scene, both of the actors were just killing it. Martha is clearly just miserable and bitterly lonely, while Gabe seems to be painfully lonely as well, and is trying to make contacts with the only people he actually knows, even if they're people who he only know in the context of basically ruining their lives. I also think he feels guilty, and is trying to convince himself that he didn't only do awful things in his long career. It was a really great, scene, full of weariness from everyone involved. However, I will say, the KGB actually does seem to be taking care of Martha, even if its a pretty crappy kind of life. At least she does have an apartment (its small and run down, but its better than what a lot of people have) and people coming to teach her Russian and take care of her basic needs, and they are apparently going to find her a job eventually. Martha's life in 1980s Moscow is quite bleak and sad right now, but I would still take that over a cold cell in an American prison for the rest of her life. When her language skills get better, maybe she can make friends or settle down with a nice guy (does the KGB have some kind of match maker program? What's a suitable guy by Martha's standards?), and things might get better. Considering I was basically convinced all last season that she was going to end up with a bullet to the brain, its not the worst ending imaginable.  

Speaking of depressing, things continue to not look good for Oleg, even as he continues to try to fight food related corruption and his family issues. His story is basically unconnected with everything else as of now, but I still really love it, and I am fascinated by the look into soviet life it gives us, even if I don't think its going to have a happy ending. Granted, I really WANT it to turn out alright, because Oleg is my favorite, but I think his story with his family is going into a direction of "even the most wealthy and powerful people in the USSR still could end up falling victim to it" and all the talk about his mothers horrible experiences in the labor camp is leading to Oleg being arrested or just disappeared on suspicion of spying on behalf of the US, even if they never find out what he actually did, leaving his parents without either of their sons, after everything they went through to have their family. Which sounds like a really fucking depressing ending, even for this show.

So Henry wants to run off to join a new, fancy school! Personally, I don't think he really came off as arrogant, he has just been suddenly hit by new ambition. I like the reaction that P & E had was more of typical immigrant parents than spy parents, with a very "can you imagine the opportunities he has, compared to what we had?", or even just parents who grew up poorer than their kids. It continues to look like P & E are over all this spying stuff, and would probably rather just want to run their agency and deal with their kids at this point.

This season is really conflicting to me. On the one hand, its already episode Nine, and I don't feel like we have really done very much, and the whole season seems to lacking in the direction that most of the previous seasons have had, but on the other hand, I'm still so wrapped up in the characters and the general themes of the show, that I'm not really bored or irritated. Especially in this episode, where we got a break from Paige, who has the most tiresome plotline on the show, and got to focus on some of the more dynamic characters and stories, and focus more on plots that are actually moving forward.

[EtheltoTillie]

16 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I wondered this too. So was he going to Pennsylvania several times a week? How many times can he use that excuse? How many sick kids does this family have?

I disagree. As a secretary at the FBI Martha would have been specifically warned in detail about new romances showing up in her life and asking her about her job. 

 

Pennsylvania:  he said he went to Pennsylvania to call I think it was Seattle!  Even weirder.  He's not seeing the sick kid, he says he's calling him.  It seems fishy.

FBI:  Good one.  Stan certainly is not following that rule.  He fell right into the trap of the new girlfriend who is asking about his job.

Edited May 3, 2017 by GussieK

[sistermagpie]

3 minutes ago, GussieK said:

Pennsylvania:  he said he went to Pennsylvania to call I think it was Seattle!  Even weirder.  He's not seeing the sick kid, he says he's calling him.  It seems fish.

 

I think he was going out of state to make the call to make sure it wouldn't be traced to him. So I get that part. But why would he be calling him what seemed to be two nights in a row? Or at least twice in the same week?

[SunnyBeBe]

I wasn't surprised to see Henry going off to boarding school.  AND Matthew going off to college.  This is a good plot device to take us into the final leg of the series and free up the characters, imo.   I suppose there will be a lot of drama, fear, killing and perhaps HASTY moves.  These are things that are better accomplished, if the characters don't have to plan for an unaware teen who may quash your plan or slow down your getaway.  If P & E have to take off, at least Henry will be somewhere safe. (Or if they have some pretty bizarre spy work going on, they don't have the extra job of keeping Henry all innocent. )  God only help Paige.  I hope she'll have her spy wig ready with her bags packed by the door. We may be in for a very bumpy ride. 

[EtheltoTillie]

1 minute ago, sistermagpie said:

I think he was going out of state to make the call to make sure it wouldn't be traced to him. So I get that part. But why would he be calling him what seemed to be two nights in a row? Or at least twice in the same week?

Exactly.  That's why it seems like BS.  And we don't really know where he went the night before.

[TaurusRose]

I haven't read through the thread yet, but wanted to quickly jot down my thoughts.  This episode was the first one that I've enjoyed.  There was some actual movement and it kept my attention.  Elizabeth seems to be wavering at times, then she changes direction and gets back on her fanatical course.  Tuan isn't who she thinks (wants) him to be.  Deal with it.  Still, I was surprised by her attitude about Henry's desire to go away for school.  And Philip seems to have lost his sense of conviction as well.  He notices things, puts two and two together and then just freezes.  The best thing for Henry would be to get the hell out of dodge and it was ten times better having to deal with him and listen to his concerns than having to put up with that sad-sack, mealy-mouthed Paige.  But I see she's going to be back next week to put me into a coma.  Martha looks terrible (Gabriel, too, if truth be told...world-weary, beat down and defeated).  I'm not just talking about Martha's outward appearance, I'm talking about her soul and spirit.  Alison Wright is a wonderful actress and I did feel sorry for Martha, but not enough to be incapable of enjoying the punishment for her treason.  She understands everything now that she's living in hell, does she?  Dummy.  She should have woken up ages ago.  Loved the backstory and movement in Oleg's story.  Will Stan let Gaad's wife change his mind? I'm thinking yes.  I realize someone's got to do this kind of work, but it's a nasty, soul-rotting business.

[vb68]

32 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

If he cares about his foster brother, he's not a sociopath.

That's a very big if.  I don't trust him for a second. I want some proof before we just accept that.

 

32 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Philip's not in the market to adopt any more stray puppies is what it's about, imo.

I also thought Philip was visibly uncomfortable. He just didn't want to deal with the guy.  Notice his reaction when the priest said he would pray for him.

17 minutes ago, GussieK said:

Pennsylvania:  he said he went to Pennsylvania to call I think it was Seattle!  Even weirder.  He's not seeing the sick kid, he says he's calling him.  It seems fishy.

Exactly.

Edited May 3, 2017 by vb68

[SunnyBeBe]

It seems that Tuan's story could be checked out pretty easily.  The Center has access to phone records to the family Tuan claims he's been calling from a pay phone in PA.  See if it pans out.  AND, if the young son has cancer.  But, even if it's true.  Tuan has created a security risk.  Is it an acceptable risk?  Probably not for the people he is working for and with.   I wonder if E wants to believe that Tuan is okay, because if not.....she and P will have to take him out.  I don't think they relish doing that.  And how do they explain the sudden disappearance of Tuan and them as they disappear as a family from that community? Plus, that mission is then foiled. 

Edited May 3, 2017 by SunnyBeBe

[dubbel zout]

9 hours ago, DaBigDave said:

he should just be applying to TJ.

Philip did ask what was wrong with public schools. Henry caught his parents so totally by surprise that I don't blame them for not having any thoughtful response. If they really want Henry at home, they'll explore all the options; on the other hand, an elite boarding school isn't a bad place for the kid of Soviet spies, as others have mentioned.

6 hours ago, vb68 said:

I wasn't sure what Gabriel was expecting or hoping for with Martha. He seemed genuinely happy to see her when she opened the door.  I can't help thinking he was trying to offer himself up as kind of a companion  He's lonely , too. Just a vibe I got. But the bloom is off the rose for Martha. She's more or less accepted her life, but she doesn't need Gabriel rubbing her nose in it.  That's the way I took her reaction.

I think Gabriel genuinely wanted to see how Martha was doing, but it was also about having a connection to Philip.

37 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

But why would he be calling him what seemed to be two nights in a row? Or at least twice in the same week?

Why wouldn't Tuan call more than once a week, especially if the sick kid had taken a turn for the worse? I think going to Pennsylvania was a bit extreme—what's wrong with the Maryland shore?—but the frequency didn't seem odd.

[Ellaria]

36 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

It seems that Tuan's story could be checked out pretty easily.  The Center has access to phone records to the family Tuan claims he's been calling from a pay phone in PA.  See if it pans out.  AND, if the young son has cancer.  But, even if it's true.  Tuan has created a security risk.  Is it an acceptable risk?

Tuan's story confused me. He was traveling by bus to PA solely to make a phone call to his sick brother in Seattle. Then, he takes the bus back. He was presumably making the phone call from another state to avoid detection. As it turns out, he didn't entirely avoid detection - they were watching him. And on a previous night, he didn't come home at all. He didn't offer an explanation for the night that he didn't come home, did he?

I enjoyed this episode more than most of the others this season because it had strong character moments. Henry should take the boarding school scholarship and get out of town before Ma & Pa's spy story blows up. Loved the focus on Oleg even though his story line continues to feel disconnected from the rest of the show. Stan is still clueless. (There is little hope for this character.)

Still not sure of why we met the priest in the hospital other than to remind us that Phillip can't handle all that is being thrown at him. I could have done without the visit with Kimmy.

As for Martha...on the positive side, she has language lessons, the promise of a job and someone checking in with her. And, course, there was the Russian version of "The Bachelorette" available to her. Alternatively, she looks appropriately miserable. While I understand why she dismissed Gabriel's offer to visit again, I think that he would make a great companion. (Frank Langella is still an attractive man, IMO.) She could certainly do worse.

Edited May 3, 2017 by Ellaria Sand

[SunnyBeBe]

I suppose we are supposed to believe that Tuan takes the bus nightly to PA to make the call and then returns home in the middle of the night.  If we assume that it's 2 hours away, add time for bus stops, it could take him about 6 hours to get it accomplished.  If he left right after school, (add an hour for hanging out with new school buddies), he should be able to be back much earlier than 3:00 a.m., imo.  Maybe, someone who knows more about that bus trip can chime in. 

[dubbel zout]

7 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

I could have done without checking-in with Kimmy.

If Philip hadn't checked in with Kimmy, the information about hemorrhagic fever being used on mujahideen wouldn't have known, and that's another disillusionment for the Jennings.

[MisterBluxom]

4 hours ago, benteen said:

You might be right but I can't imagine not seeing him again.  It would be a disappointment otherwise because I want to see his reaction when he learns the truth about his parents.

Question...what did Gabriel's friend, the priest, say to Philip during that scene?

I would just like to add my opinion about Henry. I think we have been shortchanged on seeing Henry throughout the entire show. We've seen an awful lot of Paige but hardly anything about Henry and I don't understand why Henry was never given hardly any character arc or sub-plots like Paige was. He is not a bad actor. His skill level as an actor is not very much less than is Paige's. So why have they shown us so much of Paige and so little Henry?

When you look at other shows that feature a family, it seems to me that most of the kids are given a relatively equal amount of airtime. That may not be true in most cases, but it sure does seem true to me. What do you all think? Am I wrong about that?

[MisterBluxom]

9 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

If Philip hadn't checked in with Kimmy, the information about hemorrhagic fever being used on mujahideen wouldn't have known, and that's another disillusionment for the Jennings.

Hmmm .... you know, I just got to wondering about the relation (if there is any) between that small story line and the part of the story about Martha in Moscow versus Kimmi and the Mujahideen and their hemorrhagic fever.

My interpretation is that both Intelligence agencies of the USA and USSR engage in incredibly harmful and hurtful activities to their agents or the people recruited by their agents. That behavior may not be intentional. I'm guessing no one intended to destroy Martha's life. But they just didn't care at all about the consequences of Phillip getting info from Martha. So her life was destroyed? Oh, well. That's too bad but it would never stop our operation to get that info because we need it and our need far outweighs any consequences to Martha. Why? Because the interests of the state are far more important than the interests of any individuals. A very peculiar view of the maxim, "The Needs of the Many Outweigh the Needs of the Few”.

So, maybe both these story lines are preparing us for the end of the show where both the USA and USSR's spies are arrested or killed or imprisoned for life. Maybe they are designed to prepare us so that we don't really care if terrible things happen to these people because of all the terrible things that have happened to other innocent victims as a result of the "work" they do?

Edited May 3, 2017 by MissBluxom