S01.E06: Episode 6

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Quote

Margaret is delighted when Howard offers to be Lucy's keeper, Fanny makes an announcement that could threaten her position in the house, while Nancy is determined to keep Emily Lacey out of Lydia's clutches.

[dmc]

Well George is dead, good riddens.  I worry though Charlotte will come under suspicion.  There is something about her new guy I don't like

[PugLoaf]

While I can't say I am sad for George as a person, I can't help but feel it was the stupidest thing Lucy could have done. She's not a favorite character of mine as I find her attitude toward the other woman tiresome but she doomed herself and all of them by stabbing him. Even had they gotten a surgeon, Lucy at the least would have been arrested/executed (for trying to kill him) and the house's reputation ruined (who wants to go somewhere the girls stab the clients) sending the rest of them to life as street girls. I'm sure all of the girls would love to murder half or more of their clients but they don't because the truth is they'll all suffer.

Her mother should not have sheltered her so nor implied she was better than the other girls if her plan wasn't to send her off to be someone's wife (but to be fair her mother is a prostitute so I'm guessing none would have had her anyway). 

[stanleyk]

I found this episode pretty disjointed - they were trying to cover every single plot, and scenes seemed to last a few seconds and then jump to an unconnected plot. In just one episode we had: George killed and the murder covered up; Fanny's pregnancy; Quigley searching for and finding Emily; Charlotte getting with the Irish guy and planning to run away to America; Lennox's refusal to sell Harriet's children to her and plan to move to Virginia with them; the blind mother confessing her harlot past to her daughter...was there more? It was too much, and nothing had any time to breathe before jumping to the next thing. Any one or two of those plots could have sustained an episode. I always worry about where they're going when they're burning through story at such a rate.

In a sense I'm glad they're moving ahead quickly with the George plot, but I find Lucy to be such an infuriatingly naive character that I find myself less sympathetic towards her than I feel I'm supposed to be. I'm not sure if they're playing this all as PTSD from her experience with the Reptons, but the character doesn't read to me and I find her actions somewhat baffling and definitely irritating.

[dleighg]

Sir George sure took a long time to die.

[dmc]

1 hour ago, dleighg said:

Sir George sure took a long time to die.

it took forever

[OtterMommy]

Well, whoever said that there was no way Lucy could get through this season without killing someone deserves a prize.  Yes, I know Margaret is the one who finished him off, but he would have died eventually thanks to Lucy.

While I'm glad to be rid of George, I fell like Lucy makes less and less sense with each episode.  Wasn't she raring to start her "career" in the first episode?  Yes, I get it that her first (and third) experiences were horrible, but I still don't quite buy her and her reactions to all this.  Honestly, of all the characters in this show, she is by far the least interesting to me.

That aside, I'm impressed every week with the acting in this show.  Even the secondary and tertiary characters are well-performed (and well-written...except for Lucy, in my mind).  Is it bad that I'm far more interested in what happens to Franny and Frenchie than I am about Lucy?

[legxleg]

Did anyone else have CON MAN alarms ringing when Charlotte's Irish guy said they needed to get her savings before they traveled to America? Look out, Charlotte.

[dmc]

26 minutes ago, legxleg said:

Did anyone else have CON MAN alarms ringing when Charlotte's Irish guy said they needed to get her savings before they traveled to America? Look out, Charlotte.

YES he's a creep I am not sure how yet but he is

[Arynm]

I am not a fan of Lucy. She acts like this world is completely foreign to her, she grew up in it, I don't understand her at all. I lose interest when she is on screen, cowering like she always is. At least her hair looked period this episode. Usually she looks like she could be on the street today.

I am worried for Fanny and her baby, and Harriotts family.There is no way he is going to give those children up.

I can't figure out why they think Lord Fallon will like Emily Lacy. Doesn't his group like virgins? They have killed the virgins after they do whatever terrible things they do,so why would they accept a seasoned harlot this time.At least that's what I think the other brothel owner has in store for Emily.

[OtterMommy]

19 minutes ago, Arynm said:

I can't figure out why they think Lord Fallon will like Emily Lacy. Doesn't his group like virgins? They have killed the virgins after they do whatever terrible things they do,so why would they accept a seasoned harlot this time.At least that's what I think the other brothel owner has in store for Emily.

It's not that they want virgins and Lydia thinks she can pass Emily off as that (!!!).  It's that they want to kill someone and Lydia is offering up Emily as basically a free pass to commit a murder without any real consequence.

[snowwhyte]

Lucy isn't my favourite character but I did feel sorry for her. She gets free from the threat of Lord Fallon only for Sir George to show up and claim ownership of her unexpectedly. I understand that she's traumatized and she panicked when George jumped on her but she really screwed up. I do worry slightly that she'll end up with Fallon because she needs a powerful protector if the house is threatened. 

Charlotte's Irish friend is starting to reveal his true colours. He seemed one of the few nice guys before but the temper and the focus on getting Charlotte's money definitely made it seem like if they make it to the States he'll end up pimping her out.

William still seems like one of the few decent people on this show. His support of Harriet, his care for Lucy and his disgust with Margaret's actions have made him my favourite character. 

Despite having barely seen her, my first thought at George's murder was at least George's wife will be free now. 

Edited May 3, 2017 by snowwhyte
Spelling mistake

[Arynm]

1 hour ago, OtterMommy said:

It's not that they want virgins and Lydia thinks she can pass Emily off as that (!!!).  It's that they want to kill someone and Lydia is offering up Emily as basically a free pass to commit a murder without any real consequence.

I don't think Quigley is going to try to pass her off as a virgin, it's that they already killed a girl, one that was a virgin right? That was the deal with the blood on the walls. I don't think they would accept Emily even if they just wanted to kill her. I thought they were asking for virgins originally, that was the first kink. Maybe they will accept any girl, as long as they can do whatever they want. In that case, Emily is well and truly fucked, no pun intended.

[penelopetele]

Thank god Sir George is dead. I'm pretty sure he acted so aggressive towards Lucy to make her know her place with him as he was never strict with Charlotte and let her run rings around him. I really want to know what's going to go on between Lord Fallon and Lucy because surely when Margaret refuses to hand her over, he won't just comply and leave it? Especially if he is one of the people procuring the innocent girls. Also, I think that the Mr Armitage guy will take Fanny's baby and look after it for her as he seems to genuinely like her. 

[penelopetele]

Is Lydia Quigley Margaret Wells' mother? As she says something about lying to her mother but I wasn't sure if she meant herself.

[dleighg]

Lydia is Margaret's "foster" mother. She was sold to her as a pre-teen by Margaret's alcoholic (as I recall) no-use biological mother. 

[stanleyk]

2 hours ago, Arynm said:

I don't think Quigley is going to try to pass her off as a virgin, it's that they already killed a girl, one that was a virgin right? That was the deal with the blood on the walls. I don't think they would accept Emily even if they just wanted to kill her. I thought they were asking for virgins originally, that was the first kink. Maybe they will accept any girl, as long as they can do whatever they want. In that case, Emily is well and truly fucked, no pun intended.

Are we sure that Quigley was getting Emily to offer her as a murder victim to the consortium? I kind of thought she was working her way to trying to get religious daughter as their next victim, but I also wasn't watching with the greatest attention. My impression is that the girl doesn't necessarily have to be a technical virgin, as long as she's unwilling, but now they've now graduated to murder and they want more girls in order to even up the score for whoever got too "excited" and killed the flower girl. I guess it would make more sense to have Emily be the murderee, since she's less likely to be missed, but the way Quigley was talking up how she had a very special girl in mind, and then she threatened the blind woman and her daughter...I don't know. The daughter would the virginiest virgin of all to offer up.

[dleighg]

I am pretty sure Emily is the sacrifice. She said that "this one deserves her fate." I think this is punishment for almost killing Charles. I just don't see that the Scanwell's daughter (can't remember her name) would deserve this, in Quigley's mind.

[snowwhyte]

I think Quigley was definitely intending to give Emily up to be murdered. She wants her punished for what she did to her son and she did say the girl she had in mind deserved it. I don't think she would say that about the religious girl. I think that was just a threat for the mother to keep her in line but it's possible she's thinking of the next girl she will need to provide after Emily. 

[OtterMommy]

1 hour ago, stanleyk said:

Are we sure that Quigley was getting Emily to offer her as a murder victim to the consortium? I kind of thought she was working her way to trying to get religious daughter as their next victim, but I also wasn't watching with the greatest attention. My impression is that the girl doesn't necessarily have to be a technical virgin, as long as she's unwilling, but now they've now graduated to murder and they want more girls in order to even up the score for whoever got too "excited" and killed the flower girl. I guess it would make more sense to have Emily be the murderee, since she's less likely to be missed, but the way Quigley was talking up how she had a very special girl in mind, and then she threatened the blind woman and her daughter...I don't know. The daughter would the virginiest virgin of all to offer up.

I thought it was pretty clear that that was exactly what Quigley was trying to do.  I think she talked up the "very special" aspect because she was relishing the idea of Emily meeting this particular fate.

[nodorothyparker]

I think we all knew that eventually Lucy was going to put a knife in one of these men, but it was a strangely sad unsettling thing more than hell yah, good riddance even as awful as he was.  Probably partly because this being TV there's almost no way the body won't be found with repercussions for everybody involved and partly because it looks likely to push a number of long time relationships to their breaking point.  William was clearly extremely unhappy about having any part of it and Nancy isn't likely to be happy that she was dragged into it either when she realizes that Margaret sold Emily out during after they had earlier talked about how they had been certain they would be better than Quigley when they got the chance.  Simply too many people know what happened, from Kitty to Charlotte to Marney to think somebody isn't going to get caught up in this or say something to someone.  George Howard simply wasn't worth what the fallout is likely to be, yet because he was a nobleman and everyone else involved are whores the law will almost certainly think otherwise.

It doesn't help that I'm struggling with Lucy as a character too.  I sort of get that it seems like she thought she'd be fine with this life and knew all she needed to know about it before she was sold into it but then has had one shit experience after another to quickly realize no, she really isn't cut out to follow her mother and sister into the family business.    But there doesn't seem to be any path forward for her either.  She seems like she'd be perfectly content living as Margaret Wells' daughter in her house forever sniping at her employees while everyone else pays the bills.

So Charlotte and Marney happened.  It doesn't feel like either of them has any sort of actual plan or idea of what they're doing, they just want to go to go.

The whole Spartans-Mrs. Quigley thing is feeling more and more contrived with every episode.  If these really are men of immense wealth and power as Cunliffe claims, it seems like it shouldn't be that hard for them to find girls to do whatever they want with.  Margaret's mother supposedly sold her for a pair of shoes. Take a carriage ride to the poor side of town.  Yet they're dragging a fairly well known baud who clearly isn't going to stop asking questions probably for blackmail purposes into it?  It's like the show doesn't trust us to recognize Quigley as the Cruella Deville of the story even with her beating and locking up the women who work for her.

[Ripley68]

Add me to the don't really like Lucy train.  Why didn't Margaret smother George with a pillow? Strangulation is so intimate - and if she had used a pillow, she wouldn't have had to look at him.

I odn't understand Fanny being so scared.  Yes, Margaret wouldn't take Emily back, but Margaret has always treated the girls with respect.

I keep changing my mind about who Quigley is going to offer up, Emily or puritan daughter.

[nodorothyparker]

The girls were talking at the breakfast table about how it was a rule that you couldn't have a baby in the house and that like most bauds, if Margaret knew she was pregnant she probably would have put her out of the house.

It seems fairly harsh given the relative unreliability of birth control methods of the time and raises a number of questions about how exactly these women managed.  Fanny said she doesn't have any relatives who could take the baby for her if she could figure out a way to have it and keep working.

[pamplemousse]

6 hours ago, snowwhyte said:

Lucy isn't my favourite character but I did feel sorry for her. She gets free from the threat of Lord Fallon only for Sir George to show up and claim ownership of her unexpectedly. I understand that she's traumatized and she panicked when George jumped on her but she really screwed up. I do worry slightly that she'll end up with Fallon because she needs a powerful protector if the house is threatened. 

Charlotte's Irish friend is starting to reveal his true colours. He seemed one of the few nice guys before but the temper and the focus on getting Charlotte's money definitely made it seem like if they make it to the States he'll end up pimping her out.

William still seems like one of the few decent people on this show. His support of Harriet, his care for Lucy and his disgust with Margaret's actions have made him my favourite character. 

Despite having barely seen her, my first thought at George's murder was at least George's wife will be free now. 

 

I feel like the murder of Sir George (I'm actually almost sad to see him gone because he's a character I love to hate and the actor imo is terrific) has sealed Lucy's fate in terms of having to accept Lord Fallon as her keeper. Only someone like him, with his money and title, might be able to protect her and possibly Margaret + the brothel. It seems that Margaret wouldn't have forced Lucy to accept Lord Fallon, but now they may have no choice. I still like Lucy as a character, I feel sorry for her, and I'm worried about what awaits her. I actually thought the person she was going to kill this season was Lord Fallon, but the turn of events has made George's death a very likely catalyst for Lucy's fate. I don't think it's going to be a very nice fate at all, and while it could be seen as karma for attempted murder, I think she just panicked in the moment when George was pawing at her again, especially given that she's just gotten the horrible news that he's to be her keeper (it's like hmmm Lord Fallon or Sir George, maybe the gallows would be the best option?) because there's a history of him raping her and being completely vile to her.

[pamplemousse]

52 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

But there doesn't seem to be any path forward for her either.  She seems like she'd be perfectly content living as Margaret Wells' daughter in her house forever sniping at her employees while everyone else pays the bills.

So Charlotte and Marney happened.  It doesn't feel like either of them has any sort of actual plan or idea of what they're doing, they just want to go to go.

The whole Spartans-Mrs. Quigley thing is feeling more and more contrived with every episode.  If these really are men of immense wealth and power as Cunliffe claims, it seems like it shouldn't be that hard for them to find girls to do whatever they want with.  Margaret's mother supposedly sold her for a pair of shoes. Take a carriage ride to the poor side of town.  Yet they're dragging a fairly well known baud who clearly isn't going to stop asking questions probably for blackmail purposes into it?  It's like the show doesn't trust us to recognize Quigley as the Cruella Deville of the story even with her beating and locking up the women who work for her.

 

2

While I like Lucy as a character, I find what you mentioned to be her most unpleasant character trait. She's a bratty teenager, sure, and she's been spoiled by her mother, but it does bug me that she doesn't seem to have any sense and is very ungrateful. Like it doesn't occur to her that she's been living there because of her mother and basically at the charity of the harlots like Kitty that she's mouthing off to (I love how Kitty told Margaret that Lucy gave her a mouthful of "vexatious language" -- great line delivery there by the actress and just a very fun and funny line) and saying that's it's her house (girl please). If anyone is living there as a leech, it's Lucy especially now that she can take clients and won't and Margaret doesn't make her.

 

I think the Spartans rely on Cunliffe to procure them the girls and they probably don't know and/or don't care to know how he's going about it and that he's brought in Lady Quigley to him help get girls. I bet they don't go and pick up girls themselves because that's beneath them, they have sniveling yes-men to do such tacky things for them like Cunliffe, and also plausible deniability. Not that lords would ever be hanged for killing harlots but it might look unsavory so they roped in Cunliffe in case things go to hell and what they've been doing is revealed, he'd be a convenient scapegoat to blame all of it on -- it would look great splashed across the papers "Upholder of the law by day, murderer of harlots by night."

Edited May 4, 2017 by pamplemousse

[OtterMommy]

1 hour ago, Ripley68 said:

I keep changing my mind about who Quigley is going to offer up, Emily or puritan daughter.

I think Emily and the Puritan daughter (whose name I can't remember) offer different things to Lydia.  With Emily, Lydia can both get her revenge against Emily and win graces with this mysterious group of powerful men.  The Puritan daughter is a pawn to keep the Puritan mother tied to Lydia.  She flat out told the mother in this episode that "bad things" would happen if she and her daughter left Lydia's "protection" and the Puritan mother would do anything to protect her daughter.

[wonderchica05]

Well that certainly upped the stakes for everyone, didn't it? I was surprised they went there, but NOT surprised Margaret finished him off. They couldn't have let him run around telling people Margaret's girls are stabbing culls. Margaret will throw anyone under the bus to protect her and her daughters. I knew she would rat out Nancy hiding Emily but I hated it. I think she'd even throw Will under the bus if necessary.

I can't decide what I think about Irish guy. On one hand he seems a little shifty, but he's right- they can't just swan off to America without any money. Charlotte needed to get her things to sell for cash. I was kind of hoping she would tell him she didn't want to have sex that first night, but that wouldn't really be in character I suppose.

I hope Emily gives as good as she gets with the Spartans!

[dmc]

1 minute ago, wonderchica05 said:

Well that certainly upped the stakes for everyone, didn't it? I was surprised they went there, but NOT surprised Margaret finished him off. They couldn't have let him run around telling people Margaret's girls are stabbing culls. Margaret will throw anyone under the bus to protect her and her daughters. I knew she would rat out Nancy hiding Emily but I hated it. I think she'd even throw Will under the bus if necessary.

I can't decide what I think about Irish guy. On one hand he seems a little shifty, but he's right- they can't just swan off to America without any money. Charlotte needed to get her things to sell for cash. I was kind of hoping she would tell him she didn't want to have sex that first night, but that wouldn't really be in character I suppose.

I hope Emily gives as good as she gets with the Spartans!

Yeah Irish guy is right they do need money but it was his demeanor that is off putting...I mean they barely know each other...and he is insistent on it without even asking the circumstances of her leaving...I think he will either be a bad apple or end up getting hanged for George's murder.  Either way they aren't going to the colonies...

[JennyExiled]

4 hours ago, wonderchica05 said:

Margaret will throw anyone under the bus to protect her and her daughters.

Killing George has set up an interesting choice for Margaret. It's clear that Charlotte is going to be implicated. When it comes down to protecting her girls, I think Margaret has always favored Lucy. I wonder if she'll continue to do so at the expense of Charlotte?

Lucy has always been annoying, but the character I'm most disappointed in at the moment is Charlotte. She was presented at first as the shrewd harlot, masterful at manipulating men to get what she wanted, a complete foil to her naive, ineffectual little sister. First she has sex with Haxby (which still barely makes sense), then she publicly humiliated George (not that he didn't deserve it, but that scene surely won't help her get another rich keeper), and now she's thrown in her lot with a penniless Irish man? Charlotte isn't supposed to be the one to let her emotions run away with her. Even if she does escape the hangman's noose for George's murder, I'm not sure what her prospects could be now. She's ruined her reputation as a harlot and she has no money to start over in America. What's the end game for her character? 

I will say this episode totally surprised me. I didn't expect George to die or Lydia to get her hands on Emily again so quickly! 

[wonderchica05]

7 minutes ago, JennyExiled said:

Killing George has set up an interesting choice for Margaret. It's clear that Charlotte is going to be implicated. When it comes down to protecting her girls, I think Margaret has always favored Lucy. I wonder if she'll continue to do so at the expense of Charlotte?

I agree that she favors Lucy, but in the panic of the moment I don't think she thought about Charlotte being implicated. I think Margaret thought, "Oh shit, Lucy did it" and quickly made her decision to off him. From her standpoint she didn't have much choice, she couldn't have let him leave to tell everyone. It's unfortunate that SO MANY people know about it. Keep the circle small, and all. I suspect that isn't the first body Nancy's helped someone get rid of, though.

I liked the scene in the pub with Margaret, Will, and the son (what's his name?). Liked Will standing up for himself and Margaret being proud. I'd like to hear more of their backstory and how life is for them as an interracial couple in this time period.

[tennisgurl]

That escalated quickly! I cant say that I'm sad to see George go, but I'm rather annoyed with Lucy about it. I get that she's a teenager who went through several traumatic events, but still, her naivety combined with her battiness is making me less and less interested in watching her. I certainly feel bad for her, but its not super compelling watching her spend the last few episodes with Lucy as a timid nervous wall flower, and here, she just starts flailing around and stabs a guy, leaving everyone else to clean up her mess. It just doesn't make for a very compelling character right now.

I think a lot of Charlottes rebellions right now are because of Lucy, and her combination of anger that her sister is going to be stuck in the life that she is, and resentment towards her mom that she sold Charlotte so quickly, and waited until Lucy was at least a teenager. Maybe its a kind of teenaged rebellion that's coming too late. As of now, I don't think Marney is trying to get anything out of Charlotte, at least money wise. If he was, I feel like he would have been more pissed off that Charlotte didn't get any money out of George, while here he seemed more angry at Haxby for having sex with her, and disappointed about the money. I cant blame him for not wanting to run off to American without any money, but I can blame him for having terrible planning skills. Running off to a new country probably isn't going to solve all their problems, and will instead create new ones in a country neither of them know much about.

I'm pretty sure Charlotte and Marney are going to get fingered for killing George, after they stopped by his house and he punched Haxby in the face. It might look like they went to the house to get her stuff, didn't get it, and went off to rob George instead, and killed him. Should be an interesting development.

Maybe Fanny can drop the baby off at an orphanage or something? I was glad that she and Kitty got more to do this week, the actresses are both doing a lot with a little. You know those Spartan guys are going to be in for some rough times if they go after Emily. She is WAY more scrappy than any of the poor virginal country girls they seem to have gotten so far.

Little Lennox has the most punchable face on a show filled with punchable faces. What an asshole. I don't know the whole backstory with his mom, but I highly doubt Harriot was some kind of Jezabel stealing his father away from his dying mother. And even if she was, that has nothing to do with her poor kids, who are also his half siblings! I would think he would want to get rid of the reminder that he shares blood with two black children, but I guess he wants to be evil more.

[dleighg]

4 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Little Lennox has the most punchable face on a show filled with punchable faces.

He sure does!

[nodorothyparker]

Okay, Lennox Jr. is still mad that he was sent away when his mother was dying because Lennox Sr. had started something with Harriet.  Fair enough.  We can all agree that his dad for all his fondness for Margaret was not a good guy.  The thing that was going unsaid in the confrontation between Lennox Jr. and Harriet though is that Harriet was a slave and didn't really have any choice in the matter.  Lennox Sr. may have let her wave around (unknown to her) unsigned freedom papers and give herself airs as his almost wife, but she was still legally his property, unable to give or refuse true consent.  Lennox Jr. should rightfully be angry at his father but instead he's taking it out on Harriet.  He obviously enjoys holding those kids over her head because he knows it hurts her.

[dmc]

34 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

That escalated quickly! I cant say that I'm sad to see George go, but I'm rather annoyed with Lucy about it. I get that she's a teenager who went through several traumatic events, but still, her naivety combined with her battiness is making me less and less interested in watching her. I certainly feel bad for her, but its not super compelling watching her spend the last few episodes with Lucy as a timid nervous wall flower, and here, she just starts flailing around and stabs a guy, leaving everyone else to clean up her mess. It just doesn't make for a very compelling character right now.

I think a lot of Charlottes rebellions right now are because of Lucy, and her combination of anger that her sister is going to be stuck in the life that she is, and resentment towards her mom that she sold Charlotte so quickly, and waited until Lucy was at least a teenager. Maybe its a kind of teenaged rebellion that's coming too late. As of now, I don't think Marney is trying to get anything out of Charlotte, at least money wise. If he was, I feel like he would have been more pissed off that Charlotte didn't get any money out of George, while here he seemed more angry at Haxby for having sex with her, and disappointed about the money. I cant blame him for not wanting to run off to American without any money, but I can blame him for having terrible planning skills. Running off to a new country probably isn't going to solve all their problems, and will instead create new ones in a country neither of them know much about.

I'm pretty sure Charlotte and Marney are going to get fingered for killing George, after they stopped by his house and he punched Haxby in the face. It might look like they went to the house to get her stuff, didn't get it, and went off to rob George instead, and killed him. Should be an interesting development.

Maybe Fanny can drop the baby off at an orphanage or something? I was glad that she and Kitty got more to do this week, the actresses are both doing a lot with a little. You know those Spartan guys are going to be in for some rough times if they go after Emily. She is WAY more scrappy than any of the poor virginal country girls they seem to have gotten so far.

Little Lennox has the most punchable face on a show filled with punchable faces. What an asshole. I don't know the whole backstory with his mom, but I highly doubt Harriot was some kind of Jezabel stealing his father away from his dying mother. And even if she was, that has nothing to do with her poor kids, who are also his half siblings! I would think he would want to get rid of the reminder that he shares blood with two black children, but I guess he wants to be evil more.

But why doesn't Marney have any money, why is it  on Charlotte to provide it, he made the offer? 

[tennisgurl]

I suppose because she was the one who was employed for years by a rich guy, and he assumed she still had some of her nice stuff with her, while from what we`ve seen, he never had much of anything. That's just what I assumed anyway, although if he's so desperate for money, he should probably stay away from the gambling halls in the future.

[JennyExiled]

21 minutes ago, dmc said:

But why doesn't Marney have any money, why is it  on Charlotte to provide it, he made the offer?

Marney just started whoring himself out. He hasn't had time to build up savings. If Charlotte had a similar arrangement to the one that was offered Lucy, she should have been making a good bit of money. I'm assuming her expenses were paid for, plus she would have the jewelry George had given her as gifts (we've only seen a ring, but there must be more?). I'm not sure how old Charlotte is supposed to be or how long she's been with George, but it doesn't seem unreasonable for her to have a couple hundred pounds or so stashed away (or for Marney to *think* she might have that much). Of course, we do know she has a gambling problem so maybe she never saved any money always assuming there would be more? 

I actually really liked the love scene between them where Charlotte said she didn't know how to be real and he said there was no money in the room. I do think he cares for her, I just don't think he's very smart or a good planner. Running away to America is kind of a pipe dream with no resources, but I'm sure lots of folks did it anyway. 

Speaking of jewelry, I feel like the rings Nancy took from George are eventually going to play a bigger part in either getting caught or shifting the blame onto someone else. 

[dleighg]

6 minutes ago, JennyExiled said:

I actually really liked the love scene between them where Charlotte said she didn't know how to be real and he said there was no money in the room.

I also noticed that (I think) this is the first time we've seen people have sex and actually be naked. Kind of makes it more personal :)

[dmc]

47 minutes ago, JennyExiled said:

Marney just started whoring himself out. He hasn't had time to build up savings. If Charlotte had a similar arrangement to the one that was offered Lucy, she should have been making a good bit of money. I'm assuming her expenses were paid for, plus she would have the jewelry George had given her as gifts (we've only seen a ring, but there must be more?). I'm not sure how old Charlotte is supposed to be or how long she's been with George, but it doesn't seem unreasonable for her to have a couple hundred pounds or so stashed away (or for Marney to *think* she might have that much). Of course, we do know she has a gambling problem so maybe she never saved any money always assuming there would be more? 

I actually really liked the love scene between them where Charlotte said she didn't know how to be real and he said there was no money in the room. I do think he cares for her, I just don't think he's very smart or a good planner. Running away to America is kind of a pipe dream with no resources, but I'm sure lots of folks did it anyway. 

Speaking of jewelry, I feel like the rings Nancy took from George are eventually going to play a bigger part in either getting caught or shifting the blame onto someone else. 

But then that bears in mind the question did he only ask her to go because she could finance the trip.  What was he planning on doing if she didn't go with him

[nodorothyparker]

Hasn't one of the recurring things in Charlotte's storyline with George been that she continually expected him to cover her gambling debts?  Haxby was definitely concerned enough that she was helping him squander the fortune he married Lady Caroline for to sic Caroline on Charlotte.  A woman could do very well for herself as a courtesan if she was smart with her money but I've never really gotten the sense that Charlotte had ever made any effort to be financially responsible, probably because she assumed George would continue to be an open purse.  And if not, she'd find herself another keeper.  Her scenes last episode hitting on George's friend suggested that that was the first time she'd ever really considered that maybe it wouldn't be so easy to replace him or that she had an approaching shelf life.  So I'm not really surprised she's managed to accumulate nothing.

It's seemed obvious since the beginning that Marney could see how dissatisfied with her life Charlotte is.  He clearly likes her, so that may be all there is to it.   At this point, I don't know.  Yes, he is the one pitching the idea of running off to the Colonies together so it does seem like he should have some plan or some bit of cash for the fare or something together.  People did immigrate with nothing but the clothes on their backs but they often had to work it off in indentured servitude or as Marney himself said, Charlotte could very easily end up selling herself on the streets there.  They both could and then how are they really any better off than they are now where at least they're not completely alone?  Other than possibly been caught up in any investigation for George's murder, that is.

[JennyExiled]

32 minutes ago, dmc said:

What was he planning on doing if she didn't go with him

Ooo - GREAT point! I hadn't thought about it that way, but it makes total sense. Maybe he was looking to use Charlotte for her money (that he assumed she had and doesn't) all along. Hmm...

[wonderchica05]

I definitely think the rings Nancy took from George's body will come back up. Maybe they will have to plant them on Marney to implicate him instead of the Wells ladies.

[dmc]

1 hour ago, nodorothyparker said:

Hasn't one of the recurring things in Charlotte's storyline with George been that she continually expected him to cover her gambling debts?  Haxby was definitely concerned enough that she was helping him squander the fortune he married Lady Caroline for to sic Caroline on Charlotte.  A woman could do very well for herself as a courtesan if she was smart with her money but I've never really gotten the sense that Charlotte had ever made any effort to be financially responsible, probably because she assumed George would continue to be an open purse.  And if not, she'd find herself another keeper.  Her scenes last episode hitting on George's friend suggested that that was the first time she'd ever really considered that maybe it wouldn't be so easy to replace him or that she had a an approaching shelf life.  So I'm not really surprised she's managed to accumulate nothing.

It's seemed obvious since the beginning that Marney could see how dissatisfied with her life Charlotte is.  He clearly likes her, so that may be all there is to it.   At this point, I don't know.  Yes, he is the one pitching the idea of running off to the Colonies together so it does seem like he should have some plan or some bit of cash for the fare or something together.  People did immigrate with nothing but the clothes on their backs but they often had to work it off in indentured servitude or as Marney himself said, Charlotte could very easily end up selling herself on the streets there.  They both could and then how are they really any better off than they are now where at least they're not completely alone?  Other than possibly been caught up in any investigation for George's murder, that is.

I love that we all keep getting to say the colonies!!!!

50 minutes ago, JennyExiled said:

Ooo - GREAT point! I hadn't thought about it that way, but it makes total sense. Maybe he was looking to use Charlotte for her money (that he assumed she had and doesn't) all along. Hmm...

Yeah I mean it doesn't make any sense.  But I can't tell if it's just bad writing or something were actually supposed to notice.  

 

But it I don't trust him. They have spoken like three times and now she is running off with him.  I also don't like the way he assumed she had all this money.  I definitely think it was a factor in him asking her to go.  Now that doesn't mean he doesn't like her too but they money planned a part.  

[ElectricBoogaloo]

16 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

Okay, Lennox Jr. is still mad that he was sent away when his mother was dying because Lennox Sr. had started something with Harriet.  Fair enough.  We can all agree that his dad for all his fondness for Margaret was not a good guy.  The thing that was going unsaid in the confrontation between Lennox Jr. and Harriet though is that Harriet was a slave and didn't really have any choice in the matter.  Lennox Sr. may have let her wave around (unknown to her) unsigned freedom papers and give herself airs as his almost wife, but she was still legally his property, unable to give or refuse true consent.  Lennox Jr. should rightfully be angry at his father but instead he's taking it out on Harriet.  He obviously enjoys holding those kids over her head because he knows it hurts her.

That snipe at her really made me angry. Harriet had no free will in that situation. She was his property. If she refused, he could have had her whipped and beaten (before or after he raped her). Blaming her for whatever relationship they had is like blaming someone working at the 7/11 counter who was held up at gunpoint. But of course a man has sex and the woman is blamed for it. Obviously Lennox was the innocent victim in all of this. His son's abhorrent attitude makes my skin crawl.

When Lucy stabbed George, I was like okay, we just veered into classic soap opera territory! I can't say I'm sorry that he's dead. He was already a pompous jackass carelessly spending his wife's money on his mistress's gambling debts and fancy dresses, but when he told Lucy that she could never refuse him, I was like oh, good, more rapiness from this guy. So in that sense, I was ready for him to go, but of course now that is going to throw suspicion onto Charlotte for his murder. When his body is inevitably found, Haxby is going to point the police straight at Charlotte, the harlot who George just kicked out and who created a scene at his house the night that he disappeared.

[Hazel55]

Quote

While I like Lucy as a character, I find what you mentioned to be her most unpleasant character trait. She's a bratty teenager, sure, and she's been spoiled by her mother, but it does bug me that she doesn't seem to have any sense and is very ungrateful.

"Spoiled by her mother?" "...very ungrateful?" Huh?

Margaret Wells auctioned off Lucy's virginity to the highest bidder, sent her off for the weekend to a secluded estate with a couple of sadists, and then, as the final indignity, went ahead and permanently sold Lucy into a situation she knew Lucy would find appalling, all because Margaret believed that the price was right.  I think it would be a stretch to imply that Lucy is "spoiled" because Margaret did all of this to her when she was 15, rather than 12 (as she did to poor Charlotte.) 

One could argue that these were different times, that girls matured more quickly back then, etc. And as the daughter of a former prostitute and brothel owner, that Lucy should have known what to expect. In response I'd argue that human nature never drastically changed-- while its true that numerous girls of 15 had to resort to selling themselves at age 15, I'd be willing to wager that many of these girls, including those "born and bred" for it, like Lucy-- were suffering from a bad case of PTSD. (As Lucy clearly is at this point, which was, to my mind, her main "motivation" for stabbing George. Her probable rape and beating at Lord Repton's hands, her traumatic interacting with Lord Fallon, the times in the past George has been sexually aggressive and inappropriate with her-- these things clearly guided Lucy's hand to commit the impulsive, desperate stabbing that we saw.) In addition to post traumatic stress disorder, Lucy clearly feels she has no control over her life or her future at this point, and this impulsive act was, in a way, her attempt at taking control.

As for Lucy "knowing what to expect"-- how could she, truly, get a clear idea of what life would be like for her? While she could observe others in her mothers house, some things-- the necessary detachment, the self loathing, the lies, the constant moral compromises, the deadening exploitation of it all-- could only really be grasped by actually doing the sex selling oneself. Lucy clearly had a glamorized, falsified idea about "what it was going to be like" for her, as we see in the beginning. She believes she will be like her sister (whom she clearly looks up to, and views as the epitome of glamor and sophistication), while occupying a high place in society (because her mother told her this would be the case) and enjoying herself. The ugly reality did not match up with her hopeful girlish visions, thats all. 

I apologize if I'm coming off as abrasive here; I have nothing whatsoever against you and your opinion. However, what you're saying about Lucy seems to be what most everyone else is saying (here and elsewhere) and I just thought I'd bring up a few issues with this line of thinking. 

She's not anywhere near my favorite character (I find others more interesting), but her actions (here and elsewhere) make sense. 

Her only bratty act (to my mind) is lashing out at the other innocent prostitutes at the house, however, I think she did so because she is under a lot of stress, and full of a sort of confusion and near self loathing. 

Edited May 6, 2017 by Hazel55

[Hazel55]

I am really loving this series. Over the course of these six episodes, it has gone from a guilty pleasure, to simply a pleasure. At this point I'd confidently say that Harlots is a good show. (Not anywhere near great, mind you, but solidly good.)

One adjective I'd use to describe it would be "Dickensian." It's full of minor characters who are so vivid, colorful, and multidimensional, that they frequently threaten to overtake the major characters both in terms of overall development and general interest. Besty, Scanwell and her daughter, Fanny (whose plight tonight was truly compelling), Violet, the male prostitute, and the divinely named Nancy Birch are all so fascinating and vividly drawn, they constantly threaten to drain all of the attention away from Margaret, Lydia, and the other main characters. And the writers do a brilliant job of weaving a plot that brings all these disparate characters together in believable and compelling ways. 

So... George. Yet another plot twist that I did not see coming. And while I'm not weeping any tears for George, the actor did do an excellent job of making him not just pitiable, but oddly sympathetic in the end. 

This episode once again demonstrated the fundamental differences in character between the two Wells sisters, as well as the ultimate ruthlessness and brutality of their mother, who resembles her enemy Lydia Quigly more and more with each episode. Last week we saw Charlotte being raped and abused by George, and her resulting choice to leave him and refuse to accept such treatment. This week, we see Lucy make an even more dramatic refusal of such treatment-- by stabbing her would be violator. Charlotte, who has consistently been shown to be more able to adjust to what life throws at her as a courtesan, and to be better able to play the role of courtesan than her younger sister, dealt with what was thrown at her, then attempted to get her own back and find a new situation. Lucy, on the other hand, was both unable and unwilling to accept an intolerable situation, and reacted violently. We haven't seen the violence from her in the past, but we have seen her strained and strained and strained by the treatment she must endure from her john's, until she's reached her breaking point. 

As for Margaret, her willingness to sell Lucy was chilling. She may have told Lucy that it was her "decision" as to whether she'd accept Lord Fallon for her keeper, however, when she accepted George's offer for Lucy without even consulting Lucy beforehand (and despite knowing the creepy weirdness of the whole situation with Charlotte), it became clear who was ultimately calling the shots. Her murder of George, endangerment of Emily Lacy, betrayal of Nancy, disregard of North and Hariett, and manipulation of everyone around her make her moral resemblence to Lydia clearer and clearer. There are still some fundamental differences between the two, but darn if the lines aren't becoming more and more blurry. 

Other thoughts:

--Nancy's decision to take those rings from George will surely come back to haunt her (and probably Margaret and Lucy as well.) A fairly blatant Chekov's gun, there. 

--At this point I don't believe Margaret is worthy of North (who will always be Sembene to me.) I wonder if their relationships not over, following the recent debacle with George.

-- There seems to be a deepening connection between North and Harriet; I personally would not mind seeing it turn romantic. When he attempted to buy back her children in that one scene, he clearly proved that he was both more compassionate and more genuinely moral than Margaret Wells.  North is at this point by far the most compelling and well developed male character on this show. 

--The rather conventional romance between Charlotte and her working class boy toy remains the most boring aspect of this show for me. Successful courtesan (or noblewoman, or mistress, or actress) who has "forgotten how to love" due to her work being "saved" by a working class guy with a hot body and a heart of gold? I feel as though I've seen this play out on the small screen about a million times before.  Their big sex scene? Meh.

--Poor Emily Lacy. Margaret's willingness to sell her back to a woman she knew to be dangerous was chilling. And while she may not have known the specifics of the situation, her previous conversation with Nancy indicated that she was well aware that Lydia was a (perhaps mortal) danger to Emily Lacy and other girls who ran away from Lydia's brothel. By the sounds of things, Nancy and Margaret were in fear of their lives for a while after running away. Margaret's manipulations of numerous women in the brothel to assist her with murder and the disposal of the body was masterful but morally abhorrent, and was really a great demonstration of her character. 

--I feel nothing but pity for Scanwell at this point. Is her blindness from syphilis? I hope her sweet daughter wasn't born with the disease.

Edited May 6, 2017 by Hazel55

[MCMLXXVII]

On 5/3/2017 at 6:07 PM, dleighg said:

Lydia is Margaret's "foster" mother. She was sold to her as a pre-teen by Margaret's alcoholic (as I recall) no-use biological mother. 

I've been wondering for awhile why Margaret doesn't have a posher accent after having been one of Lydia's girls? Maybe there was no need for it in Covent Garden (first house location), but I'd think she'd want her daughters to blend easily into high society if she intended for them to be kept ladies. 

[kieyra]

@Hazel55, there aren't many of us who post regularly about this show, but I'm pretty sure most of us (all of us? Don't want to speak for everyone) understand Lucy has been raped and abused and is most likely suffering from PTSD. When people talk about her being 'spoiled' or bratty, I'm pretty sure everyone is speaking in context. Not the context of "oh it was the 18th century so it was okay", but in the context of "how the other girls are treated, and how they behave". And we were introduced to Lucy's character by her behaving like she was better than the other girls--and she still does.

I suppose the only point I'm making is that victims of abuse can still have character flaws--and if anything it makes the show more interesting. 

I don't think anyone was suggesting she should be grateful for being raped, but again I don't want to speak for everyone. Speaking only for myself, I'm well aware that none of these women want to be doing what they're doing. The rapeyness is sort of baked into the whole structure. Even Fanny's friendly constable, for whom she seemed to have genuine fondness, turned and ran when she was looking for help.

If anything, this once again highlights Margaret's peculiar blind spots about which of her customers are actual predators. (And the seeming plot hole wherein everyone had been with Lord Repton including Charlotte, but no one warned Lucy he was a beast with a bad temper? All they mentioned was his penis oddity?)

I like the show, and I like its minimalist writing and exposition, but it does leave us with a few head-scratchers.

Edited May 6, 2017 by kieyra

[OtterMommy]

1 hour ago, Hazel55 said:

I apologize if I'm coming off as abrasive here; I have nothing whatsoever against you and your opinion. However, what you're saying about Lucy seems to be what most everyone else is saying (here and elsewhere) and I just thought I'd bring up a few issues with the mode of logic everyone seems to be leaning on, here. 

I  don't disagree with your post, but I will say that my problem is not that Lucy acts as though she is a shell-shocked victim, but that her character isn't consistent.  Yes, she's been through some horrific experiences, but she also expressed an eagerness to enter the profession (admittedly before anything had happened to her) AND she has been sexually assertive herself.  Her character just doesn't make sense to me because she shifts so much (and without any real context) that I can't get a read on her.   Honestly, I think her shell-shocked side is the most believable, but it doesn't really jive with what the show has given us about her.

[lucindabelle]

I just found this series today and binged what's there so far.

 

have opposite reaction to Marney. I'm a big fan of irish music so have heard a LOT of irish ballads about sailors and captains and he seems one of the good ones. Why does he want to go to sea? He was talking early on about the fish and possibility. I think had he not met Charlotte he'd have left sooner.

 

also Moira Buffini is an Irish playwright. I'm dead certain the poor honest irish harlot is not up to anything.

 

his "Temper" with haxby wasn't a jealous rage but chivalry. And he wasn't wrong about a Workman's wages.

i need to watch episode one again because it seems like Lucy was already a hadlot.

for me it was fascinating seeing Charlotte so cozy with the reptons. Shows that the couple is weird but not always cruel for fun- mr repton had it in him to be but wasn't always.

i appreciate the complexity- to me it's clear buffini is a playwright. Characters are complex.

similarly I did feel quite sorry for Georges wife.

i think Margaret simply doesn't entirely understand the situation- she doesn't know what happened to Lucy. She doesn't know as we do that Fallon is a killer and that George is a rapist. She did throw up when she put the girls "on the town" but she has a belief system which is that there's some respectability and fun inbit. 

 

And despite how she reacted to Emily I don't think Margaret would have thrown Fanny out.

scamwell recognizing quigly LOVES Margaret and then "your mama" was fascinating.

[Hazel55]

4 hours ago, pamplemousse said:

Go back and read my posts in other episodes before you come at me based on two sentences. Lucy has been one of my favorite characters from the very beginning and I've always defended the character and been sympathetic towards her.

Actually, it was your entire post I was disagreeing with. After noting (in one sentence) that you liked Lucy, you went on to voice a few sentiments that I disagreed with. To quote what I was disagreeing with:

Quote

While I like Lucy as a character, I find what you mentioned to be her most unpleasant character trait. She's a bratty teenager, sure, and she's been spoiled by her mother, but it does bug me that she doesn't seem to have any sense and is very ungrateful. Like it doesn't occur to her that she's been living there because of her mother and basically at the charity of the harlots like Kitty that she's mouthing off to (I love how Kitty told Margaret that Lucy gave her a mouthful of "vexatious language" -- great line delivery there by the actress and just a very fun and funny line) and saying that's it's her house (girl please). If anyone is living there as a leech, it's Lucy especially now that she can take clients and won't and Margaret doesn't make her.

It was the last several sentences that I was (respectfully) disagreeing with. Lucy's rudeness to the other girls was obnoxious, I agree, and it was a pleasure to see Kitty send her to her room. However, I was pointing out, I saw her reactions to them here and elsewhere as expressions of her frustrations with herself and her situation, and her deep fear for her own future, rather than simply expressions of teenage brattiness. (Expressions of teenage immaturity, to be sure, but then, Lucy is 15 or 16 years old.) Lucy has said at one point that she wants a different life from Kitty and Fanny, however, that's less offensive than understandable, considering both Kitty and Fanny's lives, and the fact that Margaret has assured Lucy at every turn that bigger and better things are awaiting her if she only does what Margaret says to do. 

I was also pointing out that after being assaulted, hunted with rifles, and subjected to unwanted sex with her sisters keeper, Lucy would be unlikely to be grateful to Margaret or anyone else. 

As for "coming at you"-- that's not the case. I was just disagreeing with the sentiments you expressed in your post. 

4 hours ago, pamplemousse said:

I think you need to seriously chill 

Okay, noted, thanks. I never at all upset, but I'll remember to avoid directly responding to your posts in the future if it bothers you. 

4 hours ago, pamplemousse said:

-- the scapegoat for your outraged extended screed against many posts by other people. 

Huh? I have no problem whatsoever with any of the other posters on these boards, who have thus far been polite and respectful.

Many people were annoyed with Lucy after this episode, which is fine. I was simply pointing out the mitigating factors behind her behavior. Doing this is not tantamount to making personal attacks against the person or people annoyed with Lucy; it is simply bringing in a different perspective. 

And again, disagreeing with you is not making you a scapegoat. 

Edited May 6, 2017 by Hazel55