S05.E08: Immersion

[sistermagpie]

12 minutes ago, stagmania said:

What I don't get about this plan is that it's just so imprecise. They're relying on three different people reacting in particular ways that will cascade into the result they want. Seems pretty unlikely.

I don't think that aspect needs to be precise. They think either way it's better if Pasha is more miserable because it's more pressure on her to want to leave the US. Though as I think others have said, I'm not sure how a defector is allowed to just go back because she's sleeping with a CIA agent in secret.

Another thing I notice is elsewhere at least a lot of people think Tuan is an absolutely psychopath for suggesting this with Pasha, this kind of bullying. And I thought...well, actually, this is Tuan acting like a perfectly normal teenager (whether or not he's actually a teen). He hates Pasha and thinks he's weak--that's often a reason people bully. It's probably the reason these other kids are picking on him anyway. And it's those other kids who are going to be doing most of the bullying. So obviously you don't need to be a Vietnamese spy to bully a lonely immigrant boy into misery.

2 minutes ago, Razzberry said:

For the love of god can we please have Paige do something else besides knitting her eyebrows together while timidly asking questions?

 

No, we can not. 

[ChromaKelly]

5 minutes ago, Razzberry said:

For the love of god can we please have Paige do something else besides knitting her eyebrows together while timidly asking questions?

 

Yeah. I've been a Paige defender but please, let's have her do something else. Can she rebel? Do drugs? Confess to Stan that her parents are Russian spies? Tell Henry? I do have to LOL a bit at the whole Paige is such a problem because she goes to church thing. She has been taking all this my parents are spies thing rather well. It could have gone a lot worse than her telling Pastor Groovyhair. I'm over the moping. 

[attica]

1 hour ago, dubbel zout said:

They'll never have the same relationship with Claudia.

I watched the scenes with Claudia reminded of when E beat the shit out of her. No, they'll never be as close, and they'll have to be wary that C won't decide she wants some payback.

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, SunnyBeBe said:

It seems to me that the Center wants P & E to get the super duper, wonderful wheat secret, so they don't have to pay for it.  Plus, what if the US government buys the secret and holds on to it?  I know, it's far fetched, but, there are theories that companies or governments have great cures for diseases, but, they hold them, because it's politically or financially advantageous for them to do so.  I suppose that Russia wasn't willing to take the chance that America or this private company wouldn't share that wonderful wheat secret with the rest of the world.  Plus, if they have it, they won't have to pay for it and they might use it for their own purposes too.  

The United States, mostly via the Ford Foundation and Rockefeller Foundation, working with Nobel laureate Norman Borlaug, was giving away agricultural breakthroughs, wheat, rice, corn, for decades, all around the world, after WWII. Saved over a billion lives.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Borlaug

This season's wheat arc was really nonsensical, and the shame of it is that it didn't have to be.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

The Americans Find Out How Their Socialist Friend Has Been Socializing

Mrs. Morozov may not actually go to a pot luck, but she does get lucky.

[Bannon]

36 minutes ago, ChromaKelly said:

Yeah. I've been a Paige defender but please, let's have her do something else. Can she rebel? Do drugs? Confess to Stan that her parents are Russian spies? Tell Henry? I do have to LOL a bit at the whole Paige is such a problem because she goes to church thing. She has been taking all this my parents are spies thing rather well. It could have gone a lot worse than her telling Pastor Groovyhair. I'm over the moping. 

The failure to really flesh out Paige as an interesting character in her own right, as opposed to merely being a means of advancing plot, has just been really problematic, especially as Martha's arc ended. It's too bad.

[sacrebleu]

Quote

It seems to me that the Center wants P & E to get the super duper, wonderful wheat secret, so they don't have to pay for it. 

1

But... don't they? Didn't P&E give Gabriel a wheat plant as a going away gift? I thought that was the plant they gave him-- one they stole from the super-strong wheat greenhouse. 

[Bannon]

4 minutes ago, sacrebleu said:

But... don't they? Didn't P&E give Gabriel a wheat plant as a going away gift? I thought that was the plant they gave him-- one they stole from the super-strong wheat greenhouse. 

Yes, Gabreil already has one of the wheat plants. Claudia wants P & E to keep shtupping Tai Chi Ben and No Strings Sex Deirdre in case they need another one. Hopefully, the writers just had Claudia give that order so they could have Liz disobey the order, and the comic relief of P getting dumped, then reconnecting by telling Deirdre that he was married 

[sistermagpie]

28 minutes ago, Bannon said:

The failure to really flesh out Paige as an interesting character in her own right, as opposed to merely being a means of advancing plot, has just been really problematic, especially as Martha's arc ended. It's too bad.

It's funny, but back in the early seasons she seemed much more of her own character and a real character to me than she has been since there's been this huge focus on How All This Effects Paige. Like back then when she was doing things like throwing herself into church she seemed like a kid doing things because they seemed to mean something to her and she wanted to make a point, part of which was putting herself in conflict with her parents in a normal kid way.

Now it's like she's constantly timidly and sloooowly asking questions and then taking in whatever they say, as of she's absorbing it in some way that's tragic. Her parents continue to have lives beyond her but she seems to basically exist so she can be waiting for them mopily at home, or doing something so that she can be waiting for them mopily at home to tell them about it. Not only is her own life reduced to what her parents are doing but she seems to understand the entire Cold War in terms of what her parents feel about what they're doing. 

[RedHawk]

3 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I also have questions about Sofia.  I must have missed some things about her.  Where does she work?  Who are her co-workers?  What kind of intel is she expected to give the FBI?  When Stan and his partner were charting her route on that map, why did they suddenly say, let's get her off the street?  Was she on the way to meet them?  Was she on the way to her lunch location?  

I need to watch the scene again where Stan and Aderholt were looking at the DC map. I couldn't follow what exactly their plan was or why they wanted to "get her off the street" because I was so excited about their discussion of the specific neighborhood. I actually live there! When they first mentioned Armand's on Wisconsin I knew exactly where they were talking about because when I moved here the pizza place was still there. 

From their musing about how long it might take her to walk to Armand's up Wisconsin Avenue I'm thinking that Sofia works at the Soviet (now Russian) Embassy. She and her son may live, as many Russian citizens who work at the embassy still do, in the apartment complexes next to and behind the embassy complex. Often when I walk by those buildings I hear Russian-speaking parents and children in the playgrounds belonging to those apartment buildings, much like we saw the first time we saw Sofia and her son.

They mentioned meeting her in a pocket park and were trying to choose one along Wisconsin Ave. There's a park across the street from my building -- I was holding my breath to see if they would mention it by name! If they had I swear I might have started watching it to see if Stan and Aderholt show up. My fan's heart is full! 

[Bannon]

21 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

It's funny, but back in the early seasons she seemed much more of her own character and a real character to me than she has been since there's been this huge focus on How All This Effects Paige. Like back then when she was doing things like throwing herself into church she seemed like a kid doing things because they seemed to mean something to her and she wanted to make a point, part of which was putting herself in conflict with her parents in a normal kid way.

Now it's like she's constantly timidly and sloooowly asking questions and then taking in whatever they say, as of she's absorbing it in some way that's tragic. Her parents continue to have lives beyond her but she seems to basically exist so she can be waiting for them mopily at home, or doing something so that she can be waiting for them mopily at home to tell them about it. Not only is her own life reduced to what her parents are doing but she seems to understand the entire Cold War in terms of what her parents feel about what they're doing. 

I totally agree, and I find it completely unfathomable that the writers took this course of action with the character. How on earth did they come to think that this was an interesting way to tell a story? If there is anything I wish television writers would not forget, it is that every character should be richly drawn, a person who is not merely acted upon by others and events, but also one who acts on others and is the cause of events. Especially recurring characters with a lot of scenes.    

Edited April 26, 2017 by Bannon
typo

[Sighed I]

I really enjoyed this episode and thought it was one of the strongest of the season. So much to comment on in response to others' posts as well as my own observations, but since I have to go to work shortly I'll have to cut it short for now.

4 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

When Stan and his partner were charting her route on that map, why did they suddenly say, let's get her off the street? 

I think as they were trying to figure out good meeting spots, they realized she was so afraid there was no ideal public location for their rendezvous. That's when they came to the conclusion they needed to set up a safe house, like Stan did with Nina.

4 hours ago, attica said:

I thought KR did a terrific job in the confession scene with Paige. I loved the little moments where you see her decide to share, and arranging the story in her head before she spoke it.  I also ruefully noted her syntax "I was raped" rather than  how she began: "A man [raped me]." Because we're still framing rape as something that happens, rather than something that rapists do.

I agree. You could really see the gears turning in Elizabeth's head. Part of it, I think, was saying the words; the last thing Elizabeth wants is to see herself or be seen as a victim and acknowledging the rape means accepting she was. I also think she was trying to make sure she chose her words carefully so Paige got the "right message". 

Good observation about the way she framed it. I thought it was notable, too, that when Paige moved in to hug/console her mother, Elizabeth stopped her. Can't have too much vulnerability now. This conversation is about being strong, not weak! I know Elizabeth has come a long way, but I can only imagine how she handled the kids' bumps and bruises when they were little. Paige is right; her mother has a terrible bedside manner.

Quote

CHROMAKELLY SAID:

Oh Elizabeth! I was raped and I got over it by becoming a superspy killer. 

I know she was trying to help Paige not be afraid, but I can't help but feel she's also working the recruitment angle. Still. Sigh.

Quote

SISTERMAGPIE SAID:

I think part of it is that Paige reacts to everything the same way. Watching her hear about her mother's rape I don't feel it landing for her in some specific way that changes the way she sees her mother. Which maybe isn't fair because she obviously has changed her perspective a lot over the years. But it's more like I wait to see where the writing goes later to see how it changed.  In the moment it's just "my eyebrows salute you in tragic V-formation."I think part of it is that Paige reacts to everything the same way. Watching her hear about her mother's rape I don't feel it landing for her in some specific way that changes the way she sees her mother. Which maybe isn't fair because she obviously has changed her perspective a lot over the years. But it's more like I wait to see where the writing goes later to see how it changed.  In the moment it's just "my eyebrows salute you in tragic V-formation."

 

I agree with your entire observation here, but I lost it when I read the part in bold! OMG, if nothing else the constancy of Paige's eyebrows and expressions provides an ongoing source of really funny quips on this forum. :D

3 hours ago, ChromaKelly said:

I officially hate Tuan now. Advocating for that poor boy to be bullied. Sometimes I don't know which is worse, outright killing people or fucking up their lives just for the "cause".

I don't hate Tuan, but I hate how casually he came up with the idea. It's not unlike when Elizabeth commented it didn't matter if Evgheniya and the CIA guy continued with their relationship, that was the Center's concern. Their act is so convincing at times I sometimes underestimate how little regard they have for the people whose lives they wreck; the whole exchange was a cold, stark reminder of that.

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Elizabeth hasn't ever completely lost her contempt for Americans, even if she makes allowances for people she sees as sharing some of her own better qualities (like Betty's backstory and Ben). "There's a weakness in the people here--I can feel it" was the first thing she claimed to sense about the country. 

Exactly.

Edited April 26, 2017 by Sighed I

[dubbel zout]

1 hour ago, Razzberry said:

Hopefully his main problem remains, in that she's not interested in pillow talk or impressing him.

That seems to be her personality, so I don't see things changing too much. Maybe she starts to show a bit more enthusiasm in bed.

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

Though as I think others have said, I'm not sure how a defector is allowed to just go back because she's sleeping with a CIA agent in secret.

Her husband is the defector. I don't know if families were allowed to return, but I can't see it being a good thing if they were. Wouldn't the USSR treat them as traitors or at the very least as people not to be trusted?

1 hour ago, attica said:

they'll have to be wary that C won't decide she wants some payback.

Didn't Elizabeth's beatdown of Claudia actually instill a bit of respect for Elizabeth? I can't remember the details, but I thought after that there was some sort of truce—or armed neutrality. Of course, that doesn't mean Claudia won't take revenge eventually.

[Umbelina]

11 hours ago, jjj said:

I did not understand why they would want the Russian wife sent back to Russia.  I'd think the potential for blackmailing her would be a bonus, and would give them an inside person at the language classes.  What use is it to send her back? 

The guy she's fucking is scheduled to be the CIA Deputy Chief at Moscow Station, so he would be a very big "get."

That said, I agree, it's pretty stupid.  Too many moving parts to make it happen, and HELLO!  Someone in line for Deputy Chief in Moscow, the most prestigious and difficult posting of all is going to have some skills and loyalty to the USA.  He's not likely to fall for her so hard that he sacrifices his country for a woman, especially a Russian.

Aside from that, their original plan to use her to get information on all CIA agents being sent to the USSR was a better plan.

10 hours ago, SWLinPHX said:

Dierdre's character is a hoot.  I would think at her age and place in life with her "non-personality" and plain looks she would be thrilled to have anyone paying her that much attention, but instead she's ambivalent and picky, as if she were a supermodel.

Everyone else has answered this, but damn.  Some people have self worth above and beyond their age or looks.  Deidre is a successful woman who knows what she wants, and it isn't some lovesick puppy hanging all over her.  She's looking for sex, a little fun, a few distractions from a job she obviously adores and is good at.  "Gus" is just offering angst and decent sex.  Decent sex isn't hard to find, and Gus' baggage and moping and clinging isn't worth the sex. 

I kind of love Deidre, it's too bad they aren't fleshing her out more. 

6 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

 

These two posts summarize my ambivalence about this season. I actually fell asleep while watching it. It is depressing...and it's dark and a downer. Everything is done in hushed tones and the sense of dread that has always hung over this show has increased exponentially.

Every show needs to find a balance of character and plot and this show has done it well...until now. I, too, am getting worn down by the despair and ruin in these characters' actions. I get it: living a life of deception is tough. We see it in every character, especially Paige. When every scene is one of angst and darkness and guilt...well, that gets difficult to watch.

I also believe that the show is less without Martha, Gaad and Arkady, at least for me. There was something about these characters - their humanity, perhaps - that added a different element to the show. I can't quite describe it but it feels like there is a hole in this show without them.

Nonetheless, I'm in until the end but, so far, this season has been a bit of a slog. It's worth watching for Matthew Rhys' performance, if nothing else.

Yes, we used to have Residentura interactions, the FBI office and Martha, and other supporting characters that really added to the show.  This season we have characters that could be interesting, but they just aren't.  I think that's writing more than the acting.

I love Oleg, and I'm kind of loving the whole USSR side of the story frankly.  I wish they were being a bit more clear there about what's happening, but once again it's a story with lots of linking logs building something.  They need to put some of those linking logs together though, and soon, and not just with Oleg's story.  Oleg's mother interests me as well, probably the best character they've added.

I like so many many things about this show...it's just not coming together as it should for me this season though.

3 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Good points above.  I wondered the same thing.

I also have questions about Sofia.  I must have missed some things about her.  Where does she work?  Who are her co-workers?  What kind of intel is she expected to give the FBI?  When Stan and his partner were charting her route on that map, why did they suddenly say, let's get her off the street?  Was she on the way to meet them?  Was she on the way to her lunch location?  

I do feel for Sofia.  I get the feeling that she she's not going to make it.  She doesn't seem like good material for that kind of thing to me.  She's way too gullible and I'd be worried that she would inadvertently put me in danger as an agent. 

Sophia works for TASS (the Soviet news) and frankly, I think she's probably a low value target for the FBI, but she's the only one that bit. 

I really like Sophia, she's another character that could be interesting if she were more fleshed out, but instead when I see her I just feel dread.  She's so out of her depth, and so sweet with her love of her son, her desire for opportunities for him, and her bad teeth.  $500 is cheap for risking her life, and I don't want to become invested in her, because she looks like cannon fodder simply to increase Stan's misery.  Sad sad sad...and probably one of the most realistic stories they've told.

3 hours ago, withanaich said:

I think her looks do come into play here, or at least the way they're perceived, because it's one of the reasons Philip approached this whole thing wrong. Yes, he's still thinking about Martha, but they all underestimated Deirdre because she's older, "plain," and works a "boring" job. Elizabeth specifically mentioned Deirdre's age and job when she teased Philip about getting kicked out of bed by Deirdre. He made a lot of assumptions about her, and then was so entrenched in these assumptions that he didn't see that he needed to come up with a new approach. She kept clearly indicating that she was serious about her job and just looking for something casual, and yet this seasoned spy kept pushing and pushing like a lovesick puppy. I did think it was clever (and hilarious) that Philip finally figured out that he needed to play the Married card with her. She didn't even give him a chance to finish leaving a message!

Philip doesn't want to risk some other innocent person's life, and his heart simply wasn't in a honey trap after all that happened with Martha.  I don't think he only sees Deidre as an aging average looking woman, he sees her as a person and I think his half hearted effort wasn't because she was an "easy" target, but more because he honestly doesn't want to do this.

Shame on Elizabeth for reducing another woman's value to looks and age alone.  Yuck.

2 hours ago, RedHawk said:

Not only that, but for P&E Pasha is a fellow Russian citizen and a boy who's done nothing "wrong". They've seen that he's a decent kid who laughs with "their son" Tuan and will be devastated if Tuan abandons or turns on him. He even wants to return to his life in Russia! I thought it seemed like Elizabeth, for those reasons, was uncomfortable with the bullying plan, but she accepted it. 

I have a different take on Tuan.  He's mission oriented.  When the KGB decided they want Pasha's mom back in the USSR to work the Deputy Chief, he simply thought of an effective way to do that, make her son even more miserable, and want to return to Russia even more than he already does.  I don't think he was being cruel about Pasha, just figuring out a way to accomplish the mission.

Tuan is about to blow right?  Philip and Elizabeth have seriously left him all alone here, ignoring him as much as possible.  I think Tuan is about to become a serious problem in some way, and I kind of hope so.  He's another interesting new character that they (writers) seem to be deliberately ignoring but will use for something huge.

Which?  Bugs.  Don't use cheap tricks writers, you are better than that.

2 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Not a fan of Tuan's recommendation to bully Pasha. I don't care how it relates to other horrible things that they have done. I work with organizations that deal with children and teens that have been bullied. I have no desire to see that onscreen. 

I agree that an episode or two without Paige and her troubles would be welcome. 

Honestly I hate to criticize young actors, but I really think it's mostly the actress.  She has no range at all, no subtlety.   Again, imagine Jennifer Lawrence in this role, or any adept young actress.  She would find more beats, the writing isn't bad, it's the delivery.  It's one note and boring.

1 hour ago, Razzberry said:

For the love of god can we please have Paige do something else besides knitting her eyebrows together while timidly asking questions?

Was a little disappointed that Diedre reinstated Phillip so quickly, even though as little more than a human vibrator.  Hopefully his main problem remains, in that she's not interested in pillow talk or impressing him.

As soon as Philip didn't become a human leech she was interested again.  She likes the sexual side of things, but Gus is boring and clingy as a baby possum.  I would have dumped him too.  The wife makes him less of a problem.  Even the best sex in the world isn't worth having a guy like Gus around for long.  Also, the sex looks pretty boring too.

1 hour ago, attica said:

I watched the scenes with Claudia reminded of when E beat the shit out of her. No, they'll never be as close, and they'll have to be wary that C won't decide she wants some payback.

Claudia adds to the gloom and danger.  I think the Jennings couple is on thin ice with Center, especially Philip.  She would take him out without batting an eyelash, and may.

32 minutes ago, Bannon said:

The failure to really flesh out Paige as an interesting character in her own right, as opposed to merely being a means of advancing plot, has just been really problematic, especially as Martha's arc ended. It's too bad.

They've fleshed her out plenty, but the actress is incapable of range.

19 minutes ago, sacrebleu said:

But... don't they? Didn't P&E give Gabriel a wheat plant as a going away gift? I thought that was the plant they gave him-- one they stole from the super-strong wheat greenhouse. 

They dug it up from a field.  They didn't want to wait for the experiments to be finished and the final product released.  Center wanted a plant to work on themselves, or replicate.  They don't have the time, people are starving there, the food problem  is huge.

It's not the type of plant they are growing that's the problem though, but it does show the desperation of a dying government.  Oleg is looking into the corruption side of the food problems.

Also, I agree, it's good to see how the rich live in the USSR, so I'm glad we are seeing Oleg's family, and the corrupt food guy's.  We need to see some of the poor people to balance that out.  Come on, show us some Martha, or at least how most citizens are living!

[curbcrusher]

3 minutes ago, RedHawk said:

I need to watch the scene again where Stan and Aderholt were looking at the DC map. I couldn't follow what exactly their plan was or why they wanted to "get her off the street" because I was so excited about their discussion of the specific neighborhood.

I was really wondering why they were trying to figure out where to meet her in public. She wants a dentist, get an Agency dentist set up in an office and you can have her for all kinds of time. Actually, market the guys services cheap the Soviet community and you might get some other people in there where you can talk to her.

 Thought that occurred to be about why Oleg's room got tossed. What if it's Stan's fault. The initial request for Stan to help could have been made at a lower level. When Stan pitched his fit, that elevated the discussion about Oleg from say the Soviet Desk closer to the cabinet level, to closer to the Cabinet level. More exposure of the fact that the Agency was chasing someone that had been assigned to DC, and the KGB gets wind of it ans starts looking at everyone that's come home from DC in the last six months.

[Erin9]

I think the problem is that Paige is getting increasingly depressed. Instead of things improving over time, they've gotten worse. She seems less enthused about church now. Her attempt at being normal by dating Matthew backfired. She probably isn't engaging with anyone on a meaningful level outside her parents now. She hasn't accepted that you can have genuine relationships with people without them knowing everything. Elizabeth was right- you always hold things back. No one knows everything about anyone.

She hasn't learned to handle keeping the secret or handle the aftermath of the near rape and mugging. Dating Matthew was a disaster because he was the very last person she should have dated. It's all built up to just being miserable. And, as I've said before, the family secret- no matter what happens- will affect her for the rest of her life. She'll have to learn to live with it. I think what Elizabeth is trying to do is get her to handle life.  It's less about spying and more about life. She's like Philip without the hard upbringing and thus the ability to better handle life's difficulties. 

There couldn't have been a bigger contrast between Henry being a normal kid playing video games with his friends on the couch versus Paige laying on it mindlessly flipping channels in total misery. Pretty sure that was on purpose. 

I would like to see Paige get a grip. She doesn't have to become a spy, but she needs to get it together. Her life could be worse. She could've had her parents lives just as an example. But, I'll hate her if she tells Stan. That's too deep of a betrayal. 

[dubbel zout]

2 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

The guy she's fucking is scheduled to be the CIA Deputy Chief at Moscow Station, so he would be a very big "get."

It seems as if he has no idea that's in the offing, or if he does, he's already shown some majorly bad judgment with the affair. 

3 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Sophia works for TASS (the Soviet news) and frankly, I think she's probably a low value target for the FBI, but she's the only one that bit. 

Maybe they think they can have her place items in reports? Otherwise she seems very low value to me. 

5 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I think his half hearted effort wasn't because she was an "easy" target, but more because he honestly doesn't want to do this.

Definitely. When Elizabeth and Philip were told about this new mission, both of them were very reluctant to engage in yet another honey-trap situation.

[Bannon]

2 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

I think the problem is that Paige is getting increasingly depressed. Instead of things improving over time, they've gotten worse. She seems less enthused about church now. Her attempt at being normal by dating Matthew backfired. She probably isn't engaging with anyone on a meaningful level outside her parents now. She hasn't accepted that you can have genuine relationships with people without them knowing everything. Elizabeth was right- you always hold things back. No one knows everything about anyone.

She hasn't learned to handle keeping the secret or handle the aftermath of the near rape and mugging. Dating Matthew was a disaster because he was the very last person she should have dated. It's all built up to just being miserable. And, as I've said before, the family secret- no matter what happens- will affect her for the rest of her life. She'll have to learn to live with it. I think what Elizabeth is trying to do is get her to handle life.  It's less about spying and more about life. She's like Philip without the hard upbringing and thus the ability to better handle life's difficulties. 

There couldn't have been a bigger contrast between Henry being a normal kid playing video games with his friends on the couch versus Paige laying on it mindlessly flipping channels in total misery. Pretty sure that was on purpose. 

I would like to see Paige get a grip. She doesn't have to become a spy, but she needs to get it together. Her life could be worse. She could've had her parents lives just as an example. But, I'll hate her if she tells Stan. That's too deep of a betrayal. 

Eh, her parents have already hugely betrayed her, by bringing her into a criminal conspiracy, without her prior consent, which could easily result in her spending decades in solitary confinement. What's missing from Paige, dramatically speaking, is intelligent anger in response. We have heard constant referrals to Paige's intelligence, but really haven't seen it demonstrated much, and depression often manifests itself as anger, which would have been an improvement, dramatically speaking, over Paige's increasing passivity.  

[Blakeston]

4 hours ago, attica said:

Every person has a right to be picky, regardless of how conventionally attractive (physically or socially) they are or aren't. Good on Deirdre.

I thought KR did a terrific job in the confession scene with Paige. I loved the little moments where you see her decide to share, and arranging the story in her head before she spoke it.  I also ruefully noted her syntax "I was raped" rather than  how she began: "A man [raped me]." Because we're still framing rape as something that happens, rather than something that rapists do.

I think she phrased it that way because saying, "A man raped me" could have prompted Paige to ask, "Who was he?" And that's a question she'd desperately like to avoid.

5 hours ago, Kokapetl said:

The only thing Stan bothered to whisper at the model sailing ship museum was "$500 a month". He's back to his exploitative ways! The plot is otherwise tedious. The lady evidently works for TASS (it was on the map).

Deirdre is odd. Gus is insufficiently assertive? He basically pestered himself into her life. 

I prefer Claudia to Gabriel. 

"I need someone more assertive" seemed like a more polite way of saying, "You're boring as shit."

[Umbelina]

I'm glad for Deidre.  Not all women are Martha, longing to get married above all, and easy honey trap fodder.

She allowed Gus because she wanted to add something to her life, a little sex, maybe a few laughs, not to become her life.  She seems quite happy with that, loves her job, has respect, doesn't need some clingy man trying to take it over or remake it.

He was the cherry on top of the dessert, not the whole meal to her.

[Ellaria]

9 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I love Oleg, and I'm kind of loving the whole USSR side of the story frankly.  I wish they were being a bit more clear there about what's happening, but once again it's a story with lots of linking logs building something.  They need to put some of those linking logs together though, and soon, and not just with Oleg's story.  Oleg's mother interests me as well, probably the best character they've added.

I like so many many things about this show...it's just not coming together as it should for me this season though.

Sophia works for TASS (the Soviet news) and frankly, I think she's probably a low value target for the FBI, but she's the only one that bit. 

I really like Sophia, she's another character that could be interesting if she were more fleshed out, but instead when I see her I just feel dread.  She's so out of her depth, and so sweet with her love of her son, her desire for opportunities for him, and her bad teeth.  $500 is cheap for risking her life, and I don't want to become invested in her, because she looks like cannon fodder simply to increase Stan's misery.  Sad sad sad...and probably one of the most realistic stories they've told.

I love Oleg, too. I understand that they are building to "something" with him but I would like some hints about where it is going. Mama has the potential to be an interesting character. Her history and her honesty with Oleg have added depth and resonance to his story line. Otherwise, it would be him walking through the streets on cold, dreary nights looking incredibly handsome.

I am not particularly invested in Sophia. Maybe I'm being cautious but I agree that it isn't going to end well for her.

18 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I have a different take on Tuan.  He's mission oriented.  When the KGB decided they want Pasha's mom back in the USSR to work the Deputy Chief, he simply thought of an effective way to do that, make her son even more miserable, and want to return to Russia even more than he already does.  I don't think he was being cruel about Pasha, just figuring out a way to accomplish the mission.

Tuan is about to blow right?  Philip and Elizabeth have seriously left him all alone here, ignoring him as much as possible.  I think Tuan is about to become a serious problem in some way, and I kind of hope so.  He's another interesting new character that they (writers) seem to be deliberately ignoring but will use for something huge.

Which?  Bugs.  Don't use cheap tricks writers, you are better than that.

Honestly I hate to criticize young actors, but I really think it's mostly the actress.  She has no range at all, no subtlety.   Again, imagine Jennifer Lawrence in this role, or any adept young actress.  She would find more beats, the writing isn't bad, it's the delivery.  It's one note and boring.

Yes, Tuan is about to blow. I think that he will do something awful and P&E will have to make him "disappear." And that should prove interesting because the disappearance of a high school student will generate interest/investigation. Ultimately, he will be categorized as collateral damage and that, IMO, is sad when we are talking about a young adult.

While I think that part of the problem with Paige is the actress herself, I'm going to place much of the blame on the writing. If viewers are noticing her lack or range and furrowed eyebrows, shouldn't the showrunners be aware of this as well? Give her material that allows her to shine.

I have mixed reactions to Phillip in each episode. While it is clear that he is a broken, damaged man, I still hope that he can rise above and do that one good thing. Rather than brood because Deidre dumped him, maybe he could actually try to comfort his daughter. Take her to the mall like he did in Episode 1 and buy those cowboy boots. His inattentiveness as a father has been irritating me for quite awhile.

[stagmania]

30 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

Definitely. When Elizabeth and Philip were told about this new mission, both of them were very reluctant to engage in yet another honey-trap situation.

Yeah I think they're both very aware of their mutual feelings on this, and it was a subtext running underneath their bedroom convo. Elizabeth was pushing because she knew Philip didn't really give Deirdre his best shot and absolutely could fix it, and his defensiveness was a pretty clear indicator that he knew it, too. And once he decided to do something about it, he got the situation back under control pretty easily. They may not want to do it anymore, but they are both very good at this work.

[sistermagpie]

12 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

Her husband is the defector. I don't know if families were allowed to return, but I can't see it being a good thing if they were. Wouldn't the USSR treat them as traitors or at the very least as people not to be trusted?

I assumed the latter was true. They all defected even if it was the husband's idea. I mean, in this case the Centre would allow it because they're using her, but you'd think the CIA guy would be suspicious of that! Why would they be letting him bring his mistress the defector home with him? Not to mention...maybe he totally wouldn't want her there.

15 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I kind of love Deidre, it's too bad they aren't fleshing her out more. 

I would love it if Deidre did become a more complex source now that Gus has a better plan of action. Elizabeth's been so pleased with Ben and seems to think he's great personally, it seems like Deirdre should get some surprising stuff too. She's really into her job, after all. If she's more relaxed around Gus and not always trying to hold him off she'll probably show more sides to her personality too. It would make sense because it seems like up until now she's always been feeling like she has to telegraph her disinterest.

It reminds me of a scene on Mad Men I just rewatched with commentary. MW said of this one date that if the guy had been married, sex probably would have happened. But since he's not, the girl sees it as a potential relationship and she's putting the sex off. Sort of the same thing in reverse with Deirdre. If she thinks that Ben's securely married, and even that maybe his previous pushiness came a little bit out of fear/guilt, she might now be able to relax around him.

26 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

I would like to see Paige get a grip. She doesn't have to become a spy, but she needs to get it together. Her life could be worse. She could've had her parents lives just as an example. But, I'll hate her if she tells Stan. That's too deep of a betrayal. 

She's also got the added problem that she has a personality--and Elizabeth constantly encourages this aspect of her--where she wants to always be doing something big and important. So she can't take some time off from thinking about the Big Secret and just laugh with friends. (Something that another teenager who also had serious problems could do.)

Even with Matthew it's not like she's just got some boy she knows who makes her laugh that she can be entertained and enjoy making out for a while. She wants a relationship that is also based on serious conversations about how difficult life is, so what else is there to talk about than her terrible secret? The most light-hearted Elizabeth gets is when she's laughing over her aliases, which have an undercurrent of "those fools!" to it.

19 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Eh, her parents have already hugely betrayed her, by bringing her into a criminal conspiracy, without her prior consent, which could easily result in her spending decades in solitary confinement.

Has this ever happened, that the child of a spy was thrown into decades of solitary confinement for not handing over her parents? It seems like this very specific sentence keeps coming up and I'm not sure why would jump to that. The actual kids in this situation were simply made Russian citizens and didn't go to jail at all.

 

4 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Yes, Tuan is about to blow. I think that he will do something awful and P&E will have to make him "disappear." And that should prove interesting because the disappearance of a high school student will generate interest/investigation. Ultimately, he will be categorized as collateral damage and that, IMO, is sad when we are talking about a young adult.

Tuan disappearing wouldn't cause any problem I don't think. Dee and Brad would just announce they were moving away and Tuan was with them.

5 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

I have mixed reactions to Phillip in each episode. While it is clear that he is a broken, damaged man, I still hope that he can rise above and do that one good thing. Rather than brood because Deidre dumped him, maybe he could actually try to comfort his daughter. Take her to the mall like he did in Episode 1 and buy those cowboy boots. His inattentiveness as a father has been irritating me for quite awhile.

I don't see him being inattentive to Paige. His driving lessons seem like the only actual fun in Paige's life for a while, but I don't see how he's supposed to comfort her in some profound way since he doesn't have any magical cure for Paige's problems. A trip the mall isn't going to particularly help. Paige demanded a more serious relationship and now they have it and they can't just go back. He has to spend a lot of parenting energy with Paige on trying to keep her from blowing their secret and brood about the possibility of having to single-handedly keeping her out of the KGB. 

This is what I think is important in what Erin said above. When it comes down to it, Paige needs to find a way to live a life with the knowledge that her parents are Soviet spies and she can't tell anybody that. That's her reality. Neither of her parents can do this for her. (In fact, one parent is hoping to just work her up to being an actual spy herself.) If Paige just can't not keep trying to somehow get involved with their work because she finds the heroism angle attractive, that's on her. 

[Eulipian 5k]

I thought Liz's query "Wouldn't it be nice if nobody had to do this?" is the virus that will infect the whole Liz and Phil operation. The pause and side eye from Phillip spoke volumes.

But the Phil & Claudia exchange was top notch golden. Claudia retorting "Isn't that how this works?" Was a great come back, when Phillip thought he was gonna get the upper hand and put her in her place. But his quip to Liz about "Back when Gabriel was shooting people in their house, what do you think she was doing?' , really tells how dangerous she is. Maybe she was Kol. Kleb from "From Russia with Love"

[Erin9]

44 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Eh, her parents have already hugely betrayed her, by bringing her into a criminal conspiracy, without her prior consent, which could easily result in her spending decades in solitary confinement. What's missing from Paige, dramatically speaking, is intelligent anger in response. We have heard constant referrals to Paige's intelligence, but really haven't seen it demonstrated much, and depression often manifests itself as anger, which would have been an improvement, dramatically speaking, over Paige's increasing passivity.  

While I realize that Paige had no idea what she was asking when she demanded the truth, she did ask for it. She can learn to deal with it. She has to. One way or the other. And telling Stan won't make her feel better imo. Somehow I doubt putting her parents in prison is a fix for her. 

I don't think her parents betrayed her. They made major life decisions when they were basically her age that they all have to deal with now. It sucks, but it is what it is. 

We have seen some anger from her. Maybe not enough, but it's been there. Anger's no better an emotion anyway. 

[Ellaria]

6 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Tuan disappearing wouldn't cause any problem I don't think. Dee and Brad would just announce they were moving away and Tuan was with them.

To avoid questions, it would require a visit to the school because Tuan is living as a high school student. So, it is not as easy as just picking up and moving away in the dead of night as two adults could do.

9 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I don't see him being inattentive to Paige. His driving lessons seem like the only actual fun in Paige's life for a while, but I don't see how he's supposed to comfort her in some profound way since he doesn't have any magical cure for Paige's problems. A trip the mall isn't going to particularly help. Paige demanded a more serious relationship and now they have it and they can't just go back. He has to spend a lot of parenting energy with Paige on trying to keep her from blowing their secret and brood about the possibility of having to single-handedly keeping her out of the KGB. 

This is what I think is important in what Erin said above. When it comes down to it, Paige needs to find a way to live a life with the knowledge that her parents are Soviet spies and she can't tell anybody that. That's her reality. Neither of her parents can do this for her. (In fact, one parent is hoping to just work her up to being an actual spy herself.) If Paige just can't not keep trying to somehow get involved with their work because she finds the heroism angle attractive, that's on her. 

I'm not suggesting that a trip to the mall is a cure for anxiety and depression. He knows that Paige is having difficulty with the reality that was thrust upon her. She has told him that she believes that she is better off alone. He also knows that Gabriel thinks that she is not suited for spy life. While there is no magical cure, I believe that doing something is better than nothing. And spending time trying to keep her from blabbing to others is not a cure either. As a parent, it would destroy me to have a child in such agony. And no, I don't personally believe that a 16-year-old can learn to live with this knowledge. But maybe we will have to agree to disagree.

[Bannon]

8 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

 

Has this ever happened, that the child of a spy was thrown into decades of solitary confinement for not handing over her parents? It seems like this very specific sentence keeps coming up and I'm not sure why would jump to that. The actual kids in this situation were simply made Russian citizens and didn't go to jail at all.

 

 

I am unaware of any illegal espionage agent having a child on U.S. soil (making the child unambiguoulsy a U.S. citizen) having been arrested, with it then revealed that the child was aware of the parents status. If it were to happen, however, the bar for acting in furtherance to a criminal conspiracy is set very, very, low. For instance, if Paige gets her driver's permit, and one of her parents has her drive the car to the travel agency, for any trivial task, bingo, she's acted in furtherance to a criminal conspiracy, because she's aware of her parents' status, and is aware that the travel agency is part of the  conspiracy.  Hell, just making Henry a meal, or cleaning his clothes, while her parents are out in Topeka or wherever, probably clears the bar, because that act aided the parents in their criminal activities. The moment they told Paige of their status, Paige was placed in great legal peril, in some ways worse than her parents, because Paige is an actual U.S. citizen, and thus there is an element of treason.  Any sentence her parents receive is a sentence she is eligible for.

[sistermagpie]

6 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

To avoid questions, it would require a visit to the school because Tuan is living as a high school student. So, it is not as easy as just picking up and moving away in the dead of night as two adults could do.

But they could do that. Presumably they went to the school to register him. 

6 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

I'm not suggesting that a trip to the mall is a cure for anxiety and depression. He knows that Paige is having difficulty with the reality that was thrust upon her. She has told him that she believes that she is better off alone. He also knows that Gabriel thinks that she is not suited for spy life. While there is no magical cure, I believe that doing something is better than nothing. And spending time trying to keep her from blabbing to others is not a cure either. As a parent, it would destroy me to have a child in such agony. And no, I don't personally believe that a 16-year-old can learn to live with this knowledge. But maybe we will have to agree to disagree.

But Philip obviously does care about her agony and I think he is doing something, in his own pov. He talks to her, listens with real sympathy when she's upset. But he has no magic bullet to cure it. Ultimately Paige simply has to learn to live with it or else stop living. Keeping her from blabbing isn't a cure but it's keeping it from getting worse. It's a practical necessity, just as Paige reporting on Pastor Tim was.

Philip, like Elizabeth, didn't grow up in a world that he thought owed anybody happiness. Practical concerns were always the priority.

1 minute ago, Bannon said:

The moment they told Paige of their status, Paige was placed in great legal peril, in some ways worse than her parents, because Paige is an actual U.S. citizen, and thus there is an element of treason.  Any sentence her parents receive is a sentence she is eligible for.

And is "decades of solitary confinement" just the most extreme sentence her parents could get if they weren't deported so that's the one mentioned?

[Umbelina]

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/38021300/ns/us_news-security/t/mystery-surrounds-alleged-spies-children/#.WQD3cdy1upo

The real illegals rounded up and their kids weren't arrested.  Then again, those spies didn't do half the crap Phil and Liz have done.  https://qz.com/926553/what-happened-to-the-real-russian-spies-who-inspired-the-americans/

[Bannon]

13 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

While I realize that Paige had no idea what she was asking when she demanded the truth, she did ask for it. She can learn to deal with it. She has to. One way or the other. And telling Stan won't make her feel better imo. Somehow I doubt putting her parents in prison is a fix for her. 

I don't think her parents betrayed her. They made major life decisions when they were basically her age that they all have to deal with now. It sucks, but it is what it is. 

We have seen some anger from her. Maybe not enough, but it's been there. Anger's no better an emotion anyway. 

I have no idea what will make Paige feel better, but that wasn't my point. We aren't to going to agree with regard to whether P & E betrayed Paige. It is umambiguos that P & E, as full grown adults on U.S. soil, decided to have a baby. That baby became an adolescent who was aware that her parents  were ridiculously lying to her about the lives they were living. The adolescent quite reasonably demanded that she not be lied to, and it was not unreasonable for her to not be aware that the truth would place her in great legal peril. Her parents decided to place her great legal peril. To me, that's a betrayal.

I wasn't saying anger was a "better" emotion. I was saying it had better dramatic possibilities, compared to passivity.

3 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

But they could do that. Presumably they went to the school to register him. 

But Philip obviously does care about her agony and I think he is doing something, in his own pov. He talks to her, listens with real sympathy when she's upset. But he has no magic bullet to cure it. Ultimately Paige simply has to learn to live with it or else stop living. Keeping her from blabbing isn't a cure but it's keeping it from getting worse. It's a practical necessity, just as Paige reporting on Pastor Tim was.

Philip, like Elizabeth, didn't grow up in a world that he thought owed anybody happiness. Practical concerns were always the priority.

And is "decades of solitary confinement" just the most extreme sentence her parents could get if they weren't deported so that's the one mentioned?

That's likely what they would get, until they were traded for a prisoner in the Soviet Union. Most convicted of espionage get solitary. Paige, being a U.S. citizen, might never get traded.

3 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/38021300/ns/us_news-security/t/mystery-surrounds-alleged-spies-children/#.WQD3cdy1upo

The real illegals rounded up and their kids weren't arrested.  Then again, those spies didn't do half the crap Phil and Liz have done.  https://qz.com/926553/what-happened-to-the-real-russian-spies-who-inspired-the-americans/

Were the kids aware of their parents' status?

[chocolatine]

Regarding the affair between Yevgenia and the CIA guy, I think the KGB's plan is to bring back only her and Pasha. They'll probably have them leave while Alexei is on a business trip. Their goal is to have the affair continue in Moscow, but even if that doesn't happen, they'll probably be able to use Yevgenia and Pasha in other ways, since those two didn't want to defect in the first place and would be grateful to the KGB for bringing them back.

One interesting throwaway line that I just remembered was Stan telling P&E that he doesn't want to go skydiving with Renee because he plans to stay alive at least until Matthew graduates college, and the almost imperceptible look between P&E, like "maybe you will if you stay out of our way".

Edited April 26, 2017 by chocolatine

[Umbelina]

Yes, at least the older ones, I specifically remember that one boy ALWAYS knew, his entire childhood, it wasn't sprung on him later.

I remember reading about that, but didn't immediately find the article during this search.  Deported and had their American passports removed from what I remember, sent back to Russia, a place they'd never been.  Those articles talk about some of that.

[Ellaria]

22 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

But they could do that. Presumably they went to the school to register him. 

But Philip obviously does care about her agony and I think he is doing something, in his own pov. He talks to her, listens with real sympathy when she's upset. But he has no magic bullet to cure it. Ultimately Paige simply has to learn to live with it or else stop living. Keeping her from blabbing isn't a cure but it's keeping it from getting worse. It's a practical necessity, just as Paige reporting on Pastor Tim was.

Yes, presumably he was registered. This is what I meant in my original comment: Tuan's "disappearance" can't look suspicious so they will have to take steps that avoid suspicion...like going to the school and reporting a move. Its a bit more involved than when Hans was offed and just buried with William.

Let's step away from referencing a magic bullet or cure for Paige. We agree that there isn't one. (And, frankly, no parent has a magic cure when their child is in agony.) However, in a show that is, at its heart, about family, I react to Paige's situation as a parent. I feel that there have been failings from both P&E as parents but, perhaps unfairly, I expect more from him. That's my response to him as a character. Its great to say that Paige needs to learn to live with it but where and from whom does she acquire those skills? Pressuring her not to blab to others is a necessity but doesn't that add to her burden rather than ease it? I don't see how this ends well for her and its heartbreaking. Their own daughter may become part of their collateral damage.

And its fine to disagree with me. I suspect that we will never see eye-to-eye on this one.

Edited April 26, 2017 by Ellaria Sand

[Bannon]

1 minute ago, Umbelina said:

Yes, at least the older ones, I specifically remember that one boy ALWAYS knew, his entire childhood, it wasn't sprung on him later.

I remember reading about that, but didn't immediately find the article during this search.  Deported and had their American passports removed from what I remember, sent back to Russia, a place they'd never been.  Those articles talk about some of that.

Yeah, I see that now. The key difference in this real life situation seems to be that none of the parents had ever done anything to warrant being actually charged with espionage, as opposed to the crime of adopting a false identity. As you note, that isn't the case with P & E. 

[dubbel zout]

16 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Were the kids aware of their parents' status?

I can't imagine the government expects minor children to turn their parents in. 

[Eulipian 5k]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

The Americans Find Out How Their Socialist Friend Has Been Socializing

Mrs. Morozov may not actually go to a pot luck, but she does get lucky.

Just read this. You picked my favorite scene from Brosnan's James Bond series! Bus I still say Mags was Rosa Kleb back in the day.

[Umbelina]

15 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Yeah, I see that now. The key difference in this real life situation seems to be that none of the parents had ever done anything to warrant being actually charged with espionage, as opposed to the crime of adopting a false identity. As you note, that isn't the case with P & E. 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/07/discovered-our-parents-were-russian-spies-tim-alex-foley

Quote

“I lived for 20 years believing that I was Canadian and I still believe I am Canadian, nothing can change that,” Tim wrote in a court affidavit to win back his Canadian citizenship, cited by the Guardian. “I do not have any attachment to Russia, I do not speak the language, I do not know many friends there, I have not lived there for any extended periods of time and I do not want to live there.”

 

Quote

Since 2010, they have made a conscious decision to avoid the media. They have agreed to talk to me now, Alex explains, because they are fighting a legal battle to win back their Canadian citizenship, stripped from them six years ago. They believe it is unfair and illegal that they are expected to answer for the sins of their parents, and have decided to tell their story for the first time.

Edited April 26, 2017 by Umbelina

[Bannon]

Just now, dubbel zout said:

I can't imagine the government expects minor children to turn their parents in. 

The DOJ, when prosecuting people for espionage, ruthlessly puts them in whatever vise it can construct, to apply pressure to the best of it's ability. If that mean getting their minor child certified as an adult, and also putting them on trial for espionage, with all that comes with such a prosecution, well, the second half of the term "cold war" is "war", after all. In any case, Paige is what, about 700 days away from becoming an adult?

[sistermagpie]

19 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

They'll probably have them leave while Alexei is on a business trip. Their goal is to have the affair continue in Moscow, but even if that doesn't happen, they'll probably be able to use Yevgenia and Pasha in other ways, since those two didn't want to defect in the first place and would be grateful to the KGB for bringing them back.

But shouldn't the CIA guy be suspicious that Moscow is okay with that?

16 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Its great to say that Paige needs to learn to live with it but where and from whom does she acquire those skills?

But I guess that's my question--not necessarily a disagreement, but how does Philip give them to her? Because I don't think either Philip or Elizabeth really knows how to teach those skills because the way they were taught to deal with it was just to do what you had to do.

Granted, them putting together some good times would definitely be a good idea and it is frustrating that the show seems to make it seem like they simply don't understand that any more. The bowling alley scene last year, Philip's driving lessons to Paige--those show that those kinds of things actually can lift her spirits. Maybe they're both just so exhausted and depressed it doesn't occur to them now. But I don't think that's about being inattentive, just hopeless themselves.

So maybe the real question is more of a writing question for the show--because I do think they mean to show scenes of Philip and Elizabeth trying to help Paige. It's just that those scenes always wind up even more of a downer because they consist of mopey Paige with either starry-eyed Elizabeth talking about heroism or Philip moping with her. Maybe change it up with some lighter family scenes, show.

7 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

I can't imagine the government expects minor children to turn their parents in. 

Not to mention drum up espionage charges based on making mac & cheese for their brother while babysitting.

Edited April 26, 2017 by sistermagpie

[Bannon]

1 minute ago, Umbelina said:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/07/discovered-our-parents-were-russian-spies-tim-alex-foley

It's no fun to have your parents engage in criminal activity, even if it isn't a full blown espionage charge.

[Anela]

12 hours ago, SWLinPHX said:

Dierdre's character is a hoot.  I would think at her age and place in life with her "non-personality" and plain looks she would be thrilled to have anyone paying her that much attention, but instead she's ambivalent and picky, as if she were a supermodel.

I think I'm a few years younger than she is, and I'm still picky. :) She knows who and what she likes. It doesn't seem like she's ever been into him - I can't remember why she slept with him, but she seemed really excited over showing him Excel. 

[Umbelina]

Interesting, a bit more like Paige than I realized...https://qz.com/926553/what-happened-to-the-real-russian-spies-who-inspired-the-americans/

Quote

 

Perhaps Canada has been resistant to giving Tim and Alex their citizenship back because of a Wall Street Journal story from 2012, which cites US officials claiming that Tim had been recruited by his parents to become a spy (a process that was underway in last season of The Americans with the Jennings’ daughter, Paige):

 

Quote

 

His parents revealed their double life to him well before their arrest, according to current and former officials, whose knowledge of the discussion was based on surveillance by the Federal Bureau of Investigation that included bugging suspects’ homes. The officials said the parents also told their son they wanted him to follow in their footsteps.

He agreed, said the officials. At the end of the discussion with his parents, according to one person familiar with the surveillance, the young man stood up and saluted “Mother Russia.” He also agreed to travel to Russia to begin formal espionage training, officials said.

 

Quote

 

In the Guardian story, Tim denied the allegations. “Why would a kid who grew up his whole life believing himself to be Canadian, decide to risk life in prison for a country he had never been to nor had any ties to?” he asked.

 

Bolding mine...

ETA

One kid was allowed to stay...after this, I think we should move this to Paige's thread or real life spies.

Quote

Vicky Peláez and Mikhail Anatolyevich Vasenkov (Juan Lazaro) were married in 1983 in Peru. Peláez, a TV reporter, was the other “illegal” to use her real name. The couple moved to New York and later had a son, Juan Lazaro Jr.—now a distinguished concert pianist who stayed in the US when his parents were deported to Russia.

Edited April 26, 2017 by Umbelina

[Bannon]

11 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

 

Not to mention drum up espionage charges based on making mac & cheese for their brother while babysitting.

I think you are entirely underestimating the ruthlessness of the Department of Justice. You wouldn't believe what they have done to people who were connected to the non-violent drug trade in the most tangential way imaginable. If you start talking about knowing about people who are engaged in espionage activity which has resulted in dead bodies, the gloves would come off.

Edited April 26, 2017 by Bannon
spelling

[Ellaria]

3 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

But I guess that's my question--not necessarily a disagreement, but how does Philip give them to her? Because I don't think either Philip or Elizabeth really knows how to teach those skills because the way they were taught to deal with it was just to do what you had to do.

Granted, them putting together some good times would definitely be a good idea and it is frustrating that the show seems to make it seem like they simply don't understand that any more. The bowling alley scene last year, Philip's driving lessons to Paige--those show that those kinds of things actually can lift her spirits. Maybe they're both just so exhausted and depressed it doesn't occur to them now. But I don't think that's about being inattentive, just hopeless themselves..

I don't think there is anyone that can give those skills to her. That's part of the problem.

As you say, "putting together good times" - bowling, driving, the mall as I suggested above, any father-daughter time - may help. Not a cure certainly but its better than doing nothing. Whether its inattentiveness or hopelessness, it is still a failing.

[Bannon]

3 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Interesting, a bit more like Paige than I realized...https://qz.com/926553/what-happened-to-the-real-russian-spies-who-inspired-the-americans/

Bolding mine...

This....

"Indeed, the ten spies were not charged with espionage—a more serious offense—because they all failed to actually access and pass along any classified information. (Phillip and Elizabeth Jennings of The Americans have been considerably more successful than their real-life counterparts.)"

.....seems to have been the critical difference, from what we have seen in the show. I would think the murders would make a considerable difference as well.

[Helena Dax]

The fact that Deirdre took that phone the moment "Gus" told her he was married makes me think that she maybe doesn't want a relationship, but she does want drama and a "bad boy" and that Gus was too nice and low-key for her. I can't wait to see them together again and find out what kind of dynamic new!Gus creates between them.  I'd be very surprised if they're just having casual sex and talking about their jobs. 

I never understood the "let's tell Paige" move.  I mean, how could The Centre made that decision without talking to her, without meeting her? They should have sent someone to talk to her and then they would have seen she wasn't ready (and probably was never going to be). I'm sure the payoff will be amazing but until then, it feels like the writers have painted themselves into a corner and don't know what to do with Paige. 

I'm worried about Tuan's warnings. I don't think he's going to do something awful, just that some neighbour may have noticed he's alone most of the time.

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, Bannon said:

I think you are entirely understimating the ruthlessness of the Department of Justice. You wouldn't believe what they have done to people who were connected to the non-violent drug trade in the most tangential way imaginable.

It's not a question of thinking the DoJ isn't ruthless, but that public opinion comes into play as well. And since there are actual situations that are a bit like the Jennings' where this didn't happen it just seems to extreme to talk about Paige as being practically already sentenced to decades of solitary confinement thanks to her parents. This exact question of expecting kids to turn in their parents has been asked and the DoJ has not just thrown the kids in the slammer. 

Sure there are big differences between Philip and Elizabeth and those spies, but I don't think that means that automatically this means their kids have this specifically different treatment. 

2 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

I don't think there is anyone that can give those skills to her. That's part of the problem.

 

So do you mean that it's just impossible for a 16-year-old to be able to live with this and keep the secret? Because that I do disagree with. It's entirely within the realm of possibility for a 16-year-old to live with that, and there are real-life of examples of kids doing it. Whether Paige can do it remains to be seen--but I think she's already doing it and is not suicidal or anything like that. She's basically doing it now. In fact, the biggest thing that's knocked her for a loop was being exposed to violence in the parking lot near Pastor Tim's food bank.

[Umbelina]

Well, one thing that this conversation is making me realize is that I really really really want to see the aftermath of all of this! 

It might be very cool for the showrunners to shock us all, and have Philip and Elizabeth, and hell, even Claudia discovered sooner than we all think.  Rather than an end of show thing, why not do it earlier, at least a bit, and let us enjoy all of the fallout!  The kids, Phil and Liz, Stan...just all of it would be fascinating, even if they don't get to the fall of the USSR.

I don't just want them caught, I want to see what happens after that.

[sistermagpie]

5 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Rather than an end of show thing, why not do it earlier, at least a bit, and let us enjoy all of the fallout!  The kids, Phil and Liz, Stan...just all of it would be fascinating, even if they don't get to the fall of the USSR.

But you know that would probably mean more scenes of Paige and making her face, just this time in front of FBI agents or whoever instead of Pastor Tim and her parents. And slowly asking questions to them instead of her parents.

Btw, I think I remember the kid who was the pianist. I think he disowned his parents and lived with his piano teacher, didn't he?

[Bannon]

14 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

It's not a question of thinking the DoJ isn't ruthless, but that public opinion comes into play as well. And since there are actual situations that are a bit like the Jennings' where this didn't happen it just seems to extreme to talk about Paige as being practically already sentenced to decades of solitary confinement thanks to her parents. This exact question of expecting kids to turn in their parents has been asked and the DoJ has not just thrown the kids in the slammer. 

Sure there are big differences between Philip and Elizabeth and those spies, but I don't think that means that automatically this means their kids have this specifically different treatment. 

So do you mean that it's just impossible for a 16-year-old to be able to live with this and keep the secret? Because that I do disagree with. It's entirely within the realm of possibility for a 16-year-old to live with that, and there are real-life of examples of kids doing it. Whether Paige can do it remains to be seen--but I think she's already doing it and is not suicidal or anything like that. She's basically doing it now. In fact, the biggest thing that's knocked her for a loop was being exposed to violence in the parking lot near Pastor Tim's food bank.

Well, nothing is "automatic", but the DOJ would have good reason to think they could solve a public relations problem by trotting out the family members of people suspected of having been murdered by P & E, and explaining how Paige's behavior aided and abetted those murders. A family of a guy who disappeared from an insect breeding operation would be a good start.

Edited April 26, 2017 by Bannon
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