S05.E07: The Committee on Human Rights

[benteen]

I hope Paige doesn't commit suicide either but I do think that is a potential path for her, especially as she starts to sympathize more and more with her parents soon-to-be lost cause.  Henry may savage the wreckage but I don't think it's looking good for Elizabeth, Philip and Paige. 

I admit, part of me would like to see adult Paige and Henry on the cable news networks talking about growing up as the children of Soviet spies.  Maybe even write a book about that though at this time, only Paige would have anything close to the "actual" story.

Edited April 19, 2017 by benteen

[Moose135]

31 minutes ago, Quando said:

ALSO, during the uncomfortable scene between Paige and Pastor Groovyhair on the couch, did anyone else get an icky feeling that the Pastor was about to make a pass at Paige?

I did - and I'm so glad they didn't go there.

[curbcrusher]

19 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

She would absolutely shit herself if she knew all of the horrible deaths her parents have caused.  Those constipated eyebrows of hers would be in a whole other time zone just at thought of it.

I am not sure what Gabriel was saying.  Perhaps I misunderstood him, but when Philip and Elizabeth were both with him, he basically approved of Paige joining in on the family spy stuff.  But, at the end of the episode when he was alone with Philip, he basically said that Paige isn't cut out for the family spy stuff.  I am not sure why he couldn't say that in front of Elizabeth.

While watching Gabriel and Elizabeth, I thought he was saying how great a spy Paige was going to make. And as I watched his scene with Phillip, I was thinking "wait????" After thinking back to the Elizabeth scene, my take is he never really told her Paige was going to be a good spy. He said they had raised her right, and that she would be able to handle anything, she has perseverance or maybe the grit that I keep hearing about on the Freakonomics pod cast.  That does not contradict what he said to Phillip, which was pretty much this is not a job she should be doing.  But it is a weaselly, slimy way to give make both parents think they are right, even though the statement to Phillip was more direct and the one to Elizabeth more open to the hearer's interpretation.

Stan's Relationship -- I was all against the idea of it being a KGB op until I was reading some of the other threads and reminded of how Gaad met his end. If the KGB (or was it GRU) was interested in Gaad, there might be a reason that a group is interested in Stan. The Gabriel-Phillip interaction didn't resolve anything for me, but I am now open to the possibility.

[Bannon]

15 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Maybe Dad could tell her how Martha made out living that kind of life, LOL. " and now she lives in a major capital city shopping in exclusive stores"

HA!

[vb68]

16 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Matthew doesn't have that aspect to his life, so a suicide by him probably would be a bit trite.

Well that would mostly be about the effect on Stan, and I'm not sure he would be equipped to deal with it at all.   (I suppose the indirect guilt from that could be one of the last straws for Philip as well.)

[dubbel zout]

40 minutes ago, vb68 said:

I mean, they knew it was hard, but they just think it's normal teenage stuff.   

Isn't it, though? The reason Paige is breaking up with Matthew is outside the norm, but for her to be bummed about the breakup in general certainly isn't.

20 minutes ago, Bannon said:

It isn't the end of a teenage romance that would be the facilitating event for Paige, of course, but rather the sense of hopelessness and despair that comes from Paige's realization that hers will be a life spent in emotional isolation from other people, due to the requirement that she keep her secrets from others.

I think Paige's religious faith would keep her from committing suicide. Not because it's a sin—I don't think that's part of Pastor Tim's theology—but because she can draw strength from her beliefs. If she has those, she won't be alone. She'll have God.

[Bannon]

3 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

Isn't it, though? The reason Paige is breaking up with Matthew is outside the norm, but for her to be bummed about the breakup in general certainly isn't.

I think Paige's religious faith would keep her from committing suicide. Not because it's a sin—I don't think that's part of Pastor Tim's theology—but because she can draw strength from her beliefs. If she has those, she won't be alone. She'll have God.

Oh, that's credible. There are several directions Paige's story can credibly go, including a crisis in Faith that results in suicidal ideation. I just want that direction written well.

[SunnyBeBe]

Was Stan just being honest with the woman they are trying to get on board with info or was he really trying to dissuade her by warning her how ugly it could get if if she's caught providing them information?  He couldn't get help for Nina....I suppose that still weighs heavy on him.  

Still don't know if Stan's girlfriend is a spy, but, boy the writers sure do want us to believe it.  Wonder why?  What makes me suspicious is that she has so many stories about things that she's done with friends, activities, socializing, sports, etc.  She has so many connections.  It's almost too much.  I wonder if anyone will check up on it to see if she's truthful or not. 

Edited April 19, 2017 by SunnyBeBe

[vb68]

24 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

Isn't it, though? The reason Paige is breaking up with Matthew is outside the norm, but for her to be bummed about the breakup in general certainly isn't.

Yes, I agree with that. I just meant from the original quote that they were relieved Paige broke up with him, but that was a leap to say they weren't worried over her mental health.  

44 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

She is an American girl told she is not an American.

Again I feel this could be explored better.  Even watching her having to say the Pledge of Allegiance in school, or her having a back and forth with a social studies teacher on the evils of America.  

Edited April 19, 2017 by vb68

[Erin9]

With all the talk about the Martha plot being more interesting, it was a very slow burn story. It took 2.5 seasons for it to really go anywhere. And it made the wait entirely worth it. We spent basically a season watching Martha, Philip and Elizabeth deal with the consequences of over 2 seasons worth of work. 

I see the writers doing doing all kinds of interesting things this season with the characters.

Without prodding from Gabriel, Elizabeth tried to get out of an op twice in 2 weeks. He had to prod her with Young Hee to lead her to try and get out of it. She's going down. Slowly, but she is. And she did care a bit about Ben. She can say she didn't care, but she did.  She cared about killing Lisa. That doesn't get much focus, but it was the last straw for her and led to the vacation. Young Hee mattered; she mattered so much that that Elizabeth still feels guilt. And she liked Ben a bit; that was part of the whole story. And she's really doing everything she can to support Philip. And she's worried about Paige. She's not the soldier she was at all. 

It only took until S5, but: we now know Philip remembers little from his past- and what he remembers is pretty dark and sad, he was incredibly poor, he had a brother, his mother lied to him about one of the few things he "knew" about his father, and oh yeah.....daddy worked for the KGB in a prison camp. And, we may not be done yet with his past. 

We're seeing the consequences of spying on ALL the kids. Paige is on- going. Henry feels second best and mistakenly believes his parents think he's dumb due to the big secret, Misha risked EVERYTHING to meet his dad, and didn't get so much as 5 minutes with him. It's all so sad. 

Everyone is over their jobs to a point. That's huge. I've been re-watching the show. I'm midway through S2. Comparing where Philip, Elizabeth, Stan and Oleg are now versus then is staggering. Through this, everyone is having to look at themselves and evaluate who they are, where they came from, what kind of system they've served, what they're willing to do to accomplish the objectives set out for them, and what that means going forward. 

I'm pretty sure they're going somewhere with Oleg looking at his mom's file. I imagine he gets a few surprises. There must be something to it. 

[Eulipian 5k]

Is Paige that much younger than P & E when they met Gabriel? Maybe he realized what effect the life had on them and felt Paige is too "innocent" for that. After all she doesn't have the back story P and E had before joining.

Also, the 80's "truth" about the USSR from Wendy's! 

[Chaos Theory]

1 minute ago, vb68 said:

 

Again I feel this could be explored better.  Even watching her having to say the Pledge of Allegiance in school, or her having a back and forth with a social studies teacher on the evils of America.  

I do actually agree with this.  I actually thought that was something we were going to see considering the previews we saw before the season began.  Even just a couple scenes of Paige in social studies class questioning the teacher or getting a bad grade because she didn't alpha American a paper and having her parents tell her she should parrot what her teachers tell her regardless of her feelings.   It would be a few scenes but it would show Paige at a crossroads that I do admit the show wobbles at.  I am not always sure where Paige is supposed to be on her journey and that is a problem.

That being said I still maintain people are far too hard on Paige.  I  enjoying her storyline.  I just wish it was written better.

[benteen]

42 minutes ago, Moose135 said:

I did - and I'm so glad they didn't go there.

Oof.  Yeah, I thought Pastor Grooveyhair was going to make a pass at her too.  VERY glad to be wrong on that one.

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, Chaos Theory said:

It would be a few scenes but it would show Paige at a crossroads that I do admit the show wobbles at.  I am not always sure where Paige is supposed to be on her journey and that is a problem.

I don't think Paige really has any coherent thoughts on this yet. It's one thing to say "she's told that she's not American" but it's not like she's shown a single interest in her Russian heritage. Sure she's asked some things about her parents' childhoods finally, but it's not like she's suddenly experimenting with Russian food or culture or anything. Even in this ep she's upset about America doing this terrible thing, having already having a pov of American history that's clear-eyed about its faults. But it still doesn't seem like she sees the USSR as a real country (remember her "What we're just going to speak Russian???!") or to have adopted any teenage love for Communism. She seems to literally still be at this level wanting to "help people" and understanding that her parents are trying to "help people" and Marx also said things about "helping people" and so did Jesus. Treason does not seem to be a thing in her mind--and it's not like anybody around her has mentioned it, including Pastor Tim.

[tennisgurl]

48 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Also, the 80's "truth" about the USSR from Wendy's! 

...was this actually a thing they showed on TV? I mean, its not like people in the USSR were going to see it and get offended, but that's just such a weird marketing choice. Man, I wasn't around for the 80s, but everything I've seen tells me it was strange times.

I think the theme of this season is that Everyone is DONE. Philip, Stan, Oleg, Gabriele, even True Believer Elizabeth, they are just DONE. At this point, I'm amazed the Cold War didn't end when everyone in the intelligence community all just dropped dead of simultaneous stress aneurysms. It seems like the best case scenario for anyone in this line of work is Gabriele, who is still alive and in one piece, and not in jail or anything, but is old, exhausted, lonely, and haunted by the past. If this really is the last we see of Gabriele, I will really miss him and what Frank Langella brought to the role. I suspected him of being straight up sketchy for quite awhile, but now, I think he does care about P & E, even beyond their worth to the cause, and does think of them as family. Langella really brought a sense of warmth, as well as a sense of sadness to Gabriele, and I will miss him on the show. I can only imagine the next person they get to babysit P & E will be far less forgiving of their antics.

I really love the women playing Oleg's mom. She doesn't say much, but I get such a sense of her character, she's so expressive in her facial expressions and body language. She practically glowed in relief when Oleg said he was pretty sure he was in the clear. Especially when Oleg was clearly still wondering why he was suddenly not being followed, while she was just like "sweetie, don't question it, just enjoy the fact that you probably aren't going to freeze to death in Siberia over some bullshit". So, it looked like Oleg's mom might have been in some kind of logging prison camp back in the day. Is it a coincidence that we also just found out that Philips dad was a guard at a logging prison camp? Maybe its just a thematic point, but now that Oleg just found out that his mom was in a labor camp, while Philip just found out his dad was a guard at a prison camp, it does look...interesting. Could they have known each other? I'm not really sure on the timeline, does it line up? I'm pretty sure Oleg is younger then Philip (I've always thought he was early 30s, while P & E were more early 40s), so I have no idea if that could work, but...

"Are you a spy?" No Paige, he's their accountant. Paige isn't stupid, and she's been shown to be observant and have an interest in the world around her, but she's always pretty naïve and cracks quickly under pressure. I know she's just a normal teenaged girl, so I do feel for her, but I think Gabriele was right on the money. She shouldn't have been brought into this. I also think its weird she asks so few questions about her background, even beyond them being spies. If I found out my parents or I were of a totally different background and culture, with family and history that I never knew (even if they weren't spies, and they never told me for some other, non illegal, reason), I would want to know more about them and my heritage, even if it was just surface level stuff. She's been reading Marx, but so did every pretentious college freshmen I ever knew. I would like to get more from her beyond just being stressed out.

I got a little giggle out of Hippie Wheat Guy apparently hooking up with another woman, and Elizabeth getting all pissed off about it. It was funny seeing a chink in her Ice Queen amour. Even Philip seemed amused by her reaction. When your Philip, you have to take the laughs where you can get them.

Edited April 19, 2017 by tennisgurl

[Umbelina]

5 hours ago, stagmania said:

It would be pretty stupid of them to tell her that right now. They're trying to get her stable again; why introduce something that would send her spinning into more doubts and that they themselves have no good answer for? Helping Paige keep it together so the family can survive is more important than inviting her to grapple with the hard truths they face.

They can't tell her.  What's cool about it though is that because of the lie, which they thought was the truth, they will be forced even more to look at all they do.  Paige will continue to bring it up, since it's the only op she knows about.  Instead of feeling momentary guilt for killing a complete innocent and moving on?  They will have to think about it.  Instead of blithely going to their honey traps?  They will have to think about that even at home, since Paige keeps asking questions or commenting on how AWFUL America is to do that.

In other words, they have a new set of eyes on their actions.  Paige, and they have to lie to her continually.  That should take some kind of toll, raise some kinds of questions for them.

1 hour ago, Quando said:

If the company puts razor wire and guards around the plants in the greenhouse, then why is there a whole field of the stuff growing out in the open down in Mississippi where anyone who wants to can just come and dig up a sample?  Now that I think of it, why are Elizabeth and Phillip so sure that what was growing in that field was actually the super wheat?  From what I recall, all P&E knew was that (i) Mr. Tai-Chi was taking a business trip to Mississippi, and (ii) Ms. Lotus had some shipping invoices to places in Mississippi.  How did they get from that to knowing that these particular crops growing in this particular field are the super wheat?  The fact that there is no guard at the field, and not even a fence or a "no trespassing" sign, makes it seem more likely that whatever was growing out there was not the real super wheat, which would be very commercially valuable to the company.  Maybe is was just one of many experimental strains they were testing.

ALSO, during the uncomfortable scene between Paige and Pastor Groovyhair on the couch, did anyone else get an icky feeling that the Pastor was about to make a pass at Paige?

One section of wheat was thriving, the other sections were struggling.  That's how they knew which wheat to take.  That said, it's wheat growing by the side of the road, it's basically an experiment by a private company, and honestly, who would look twice at wheat growing in Kansas? 

The bigger question is the midges, releasing them in America's bread basket seems problematic to me.  Especially if this is a super midge or strain not normally found in the USA.

I always feel like the Pastor is one step away from jumping Paige's bones.

1 hour ago, icemiser69 said:

 

I am not sure what Gabriel was saying.  Perhaps I misunderstood him, but when Philip and Elizabeth were both with him, he basically approved of Paige joining in on the family spy stuff.  But, at the end of the episode when he was alone with Philip, he basically said that Paige isn't cut out for the family spy stuff.  I am not sure why he couldn't say that in front of Elizabeth.

He lied to Elizabeth, encouraged her, because that's what handlers do, and it's too late now, and he knew what Liz needed to hear.  He told Philip the truth because Gabe's fed up with all of it, especially more lies to Philip (after the biggest lie of all, Misha.)  Also, I think he wanted to say one true thing to Philip before he bailed out.  He's a spy, he lies, all spies lie.

I also think Gabe saying Paige should be kept out of all of this was talking about spying in general.  Being a spy sucks, and Gabe has it behind him now, no family, no other life, superiors that lie to him, or simply are idiots, he's gone through his life surviving, not making choices except for "how do I stay alive?"  He stayed alive, so he succeeded in that goal, but I don't think that's enough for him now.  He'll continue to try to stay alive of course, for his bleak life with no family, and very little to show.  Will he seek out Misha or Martha?  Maybe...

---

I've been googling Kraslag Kansk unit, the Gulag Oleg's mom survived.  It's in Siberia as well, but far from Philip's Tobolsk.  2,346 km, but on about the same latitude so probably similar weather.  I failed to find any photos of Kansk Gulag in the years Oleg's mother was there 1947 to 1951, or maybe there were some but they don't usually specific which camp.  Good for her for surviving, conditions were obviously miserable and most did die, starvation, over work, exposure to the elements, lack of medical care.  Sucked for her!  Survive the war deprivations and terror, and shortly after that thrown into a Siberian Gulag. 

---

I think what I miss most about this season is the lack of tension.  Yes, of course we have tension, everything is showing the toll being a spy takes, and most are cracking under the slow but endless pressure, Oleg, Stan, Philip, Gabe, and last season of course, William, Paige even knowing about it, even with the happy lies she's told, is weighing heavily on her.

But, in the past this show was SO good at tension, edge of our seats tension, Elizabeth merely pulling back a curtain and watching utility workers (after the murders of the spy family friends when they didn't know if they were next) was SO tense.  "Under Pressure" coming on another time described it perfectly.

This season we really don't have any of that, it's less nail biting time, and much more overwhelmed with a boring mass of yuck struggling to breathe time.  I think it's working for the overall story resolve, but it's not working that well for me as someone watching an individual episode.

It's just SUCH a massive change in the way the show operates.  It's not the multiple stories which are all basically connected through food, we've had multiple operations before.  It's that the show used to be able to do both long and shorter arcs, and those shorter arcs provided the edge of your seat tension, some things were resolved and that was satisfying.  So, we got these little resolves along the way in other seasons.  This season is just one long sludge pile to muck through, just as our leads are tired of it, so are we.

My real irritations are the Misha story, and dragging out the reveal of Stan's girlfriend, because COME ON, no way would she be on screen this much is she's not spying for someone.  What was the point of scaring Oleg?  To get his mother's story?  I'm sure that will all tie in somehow to Philip's dad reveal, tangentially at least, or Misha will be introduced to a Gulag in spite of Gabe's efforts.

--

continuing the word vomit here...sorry this is sooooo long.

I loved that smores guy is a player, that seemed very real, totally in character for him.  It doesn't make him a bad guy at all, but it may have also shown that, hot as they are, Liz and Philip are getting a bit old for seducing everyone in sight.  Aside from that, they are not an exclusive couple, and he's free to do whatever he wants, she doesn't even live there. 

I don't think Philip was "bad at sex" or Lotus lady would have dumped him.  She's got a life, she's not needy, but her life obviously lacked sex.  Philip provided that, but maybe he was with Martha too long, and tried using his Martha moves on her.  Not all women want needy love struck men hanging all over them.  Some just want decent sex once in a while, without the "strings" attached, especially if there is zilch interest in said guy as boyfriend material, and not all women are hunting for a husband.  She would have dumped him completely if not for the sex. 

Loved that.

Frankly I also kind of loved Stan being honest with the Russian lady.  He's over the whole spy lies crap "bigley."

[sistermagpie]

3 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

...was this actually a thing they showed on TV? I mean, its not like people in the USSR were going to see it and get offended, but that's just such a weird marketing choice. Man, I wasn't around for the 80s, but everything I've seen tells me it was strange times.

 

Absolutely it was. And it didn't seem weird at the time at all.  

5 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I think he does care about P & E, even beyond their worth to the cause, and does think of them as family.

Yeah, in the end they were what he had at the end of his life. No wonder he finally understands why it's important for Philip to keep Paige safe. Meanwhile Elizabeth is still devoted to the idea that her mother must have really loved her to toss her out to be a spy...

6 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Is it a coincidence that we also just found out that Philips dad was a guard at a logging prison camp? Maybe its just a thematic point, but now that Oleg just found out that his mom was in a labor camp, while Philip just found out his dad was a guard at a prison camp, it does look...interesting. Could they have known each other?

I have to go with it being thematic. I mean, we get absolutely zero out of a crazy soap opera coincidence here. There were millions of nobodies in many camps. That one's not in the same place. The point is that it could have been Oleg's mother Philip's dad (meaning that these people were interchangeable) guarding her, not that it was. This is about one generation of Soviets finally asking questions of the last and trying to know them.

5 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

They can't tell her.  What's cool about it though is that because of the lie, which they thought was the truth, they will be forced even mo

Why couldn't they tell her? I can see why they wouldn't want to, but it doesn't seem impossible to me.

9 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I always feel like the Pastor is one step away from jumping Paige's bones.

It's really hilarious. I think it's because whatever Pastor Tim is doing his interest in Paige is always too interested. It's not actual sexual, but it's not casual either. And now it's probably getting worse as he's probably picking up on his waning influence. In a way, it's a bit like Deirdre and Gus. He's not actually making such a bad move, but it's still too much.

11 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

It's just SUCH a massive change in the way the show operates.  It's not the multiple stories which are all basically connected through food, we've had multiple operations before.  It's that the show used to be able to do both long and shorter arcs, and those shorter arcs provided the edge of your seat tension, some things were resolved and that was satisfying.  So, we got these little resolves along the way in other seasons.  This season is just one long sludge pile to muck through, just as our leads are tired of it, so are we.

 

Yes, I agree. There's a very different kind of tension and little things that seem like they're going somewhere don't.

12 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I loved that smores guy is a player, that seemed very real, totally in character for him.  It doesn't make him a bad guy at all, but it may have also shown that, hot as they are, Liz and Philip are getting a bit old for seducing everyone in sight.  Aside from that, they are not an exclusive couple, and he's free to do whatever he wants, she doesn't even live there. 

 

But then, even at 25 there's no reason Elizabeth sleeping with this guy would suddenly make him feel like he had to be exclusive. She's probably not the first woman he's charmed into bed quickly--and he did charm her as far as he knows. But Elizabeth at 25 would never have allowed herself to think of him as a vulnerable guy who thought she was special and so didn't deserve this, maybe.

14 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I don't think Philip was "bad at sex" or Lotus lady would have dumped him.  She's got a life, she's not needy, but her life ob

Yes, I thought it was more that since she wasn't looking for anything from him she was actually seeing through to the truth, that he wanted something from her. Not because he was acting extremely needy by most peoples' standards, but he did make a few moves toward making them closer so that she'd talk to him. 

Funny, though, that they're kind of both getting what they want in that they're not breaking the hearts of these people who aren't depending on them for a connection. But in a way that just highlights things that suck about what they do.

[Ellaria]

30 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

 When your Philip, you have to take the laughs where you can get them.

Best line in the entire thread.

[tennisgurl]

Awwww your too kind @Ellaria Sand! I'm smiling harder then Philip probably has in his entire life. Poor guy.

[Umbelina]

They can't tell Paige the truth because they NEED to convince her the USSR is good, and the USA is bad, in order for her to have any chance of believing her parents are "doing good in the world."

Imagine if they told her!  She'd blow up! 

I'm not even talking about telling her they murdered an innocent scientist and are busy sleeping with other people for whatever reasons, or that they stole a sample of the wheat.  I'm just talking about the basic facts.

P & E:   "We went on a mission because our bosses told us America was trying to poison our grains.  It turns out, it was just a company working to improve grains, make them resistant to bugs, so they could feed the entire world."

Paige:  So, wait!  Americans were trying to feed the world, and the KGB assumed they were poisoning grain?  WHAT?  Are they all paranoid idiots over there?  America wouldn't DO that, this is a good country!  It has some faults, sure, but WE don't try to starve people!  So, why are you still working that mission?  Are you stealing the wheat?  Why do you need to keep working if this American plan is good for the world?  Just what do you DO when you leave home?  You found out WHEN?  You want me to believe my country is bad, but yours is good?  I never thought we would do this and I was right.  (on and on to breakdown point, screaming again with Henry just down the hall.)

[sistermagpie]

6 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Paige:  So, wait!  Americans were trying to feed the world, and the KGB assumed they were poisoning grain?  WHAT?  Are they all paranoid idiots over there?  America wouldn't DO that, this is a good country!  It has some faults, sure, but WE don't try to starve people!  So, why are you still working that mission?  Are you stealing the wheat?  Why do you need to keep working if this American plan is good for the world?  Just what do you DO when you leave home?  You found out WHEN?  You want me to believe my country is bad, but yours is good?  I never thought we would do this and I was right.  (on and on to breakdown point, screaming again with Henry just down the hall.)

This doesn't sound like Paige at all to me. More likely she'd say, "Oh, good. I'm glad that America wasn't doing anything that terrible, although I know that America has done things that are terrible. It's good that they're making the wheat. But it should be for everyone whether or not they can pay for it. That's what Marx and Jesus would do. But how do you know you're doing the right thing if you can be wrong about things?"

Elizabeth: We have faith.

Philip: We don't. We hope.

[jjj]

4 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

I didn't appreciate the Martha Arc while it was going on. (I think that Phillip's ever-present wig and glasses distracted me.)  But now that she is gone, I miss what she brought to the show. P & E have used many innocents to further their objectives but Martha was an extreme example. My heart still hurts for her even though she was a willing participant.

No way was Martha a willing participant.  She thought she was helping an oversight branch of the U.S. government.  When she finally was told the truth, much later, she was a very reluctant protector of Phillip while also trying to be loyal to the FBI.   And she was living in terror, because she knew it was wrong and she was caught in the web. 

[EtheltoTillie]

5 hours ago, attica said:

 

 

Breaking Away is a really good movie, if you haven't seen it. Young, strapping, shirtless Dennis Quaid is thrown in for good measure.

Breaking Away is one of my favorite movies, and that was a real highlight of the episode for me!

[Eulipian 5k]

3 minutes ago, jjj said:

And she was living in terror, because she knew it was wrong and she was caught in the web. 

This discussion really points out the difference between this season and last. The only person in danger this season was Oleg, and he is in the clear. Maybe that's why so many seem uneasy with the pace this year.

[Ellaria]

14 minutes ago, jjj said:

No way was Martha a willing participant.  She thought she was helping an oversight branch of the U.S. government.  When she finally was told the truth, much later, she was a very reluctant protector of Phillip while also trying to be loyal to the FBI.   And she was living in terror, because she knew it was wrong and she was caught in the web. 

Perhaps I should have clarified. She was a "willing participant" in the scheme that Clarke created.  I am well aware that she was not a "willing participant" in spying, at least for the majority of her time.

Edited April 19, 2017 by Ellaria Sand

[sistermagpie]

7 minutes ago, jjj said:

No way was Martha a willing participant.  She thought she was helping an oversight branch of the U.S. government.  When she finally was told the truth, much later, she was a very reluctant protector of Phillip while also trying to be loyal to the FBI.   And she was living in terror, because she knew it was wrong and she was caught in the web. 

That makes her a willing participant. The minute she knew Clark wasn't with the DOJ and chose to continue to gather information for him she was willing. Reluctant doesn't count. She wasn't loyal to the FBI at all at that point.

[jjj]

6 minutes ago, GussieK said:

Breaking Away is one of my favorite movies, and that was a real highlight of the episode for me!

Mine, also!  I actually thought there was a clue in the girlfriend's remark about the film location, because she referred to "the U of I", meaning Indiana University, where it was filmed.  But no one calls it "U of I" -- just "IU".  I thought the perturbed look on Stan's face was "dang, she's a spy, she does not know our lingo!"  (joking, but I thought that was significant.  I guess it means the writer don't know it is "IU".) 

Edited April 19, 2017 by jjj

[EtheltoTillie]

1 hour ago, Eulipian 5k said:

 

Also, the 80's "truth" about the USSR from Wendy's! 

Thank you for finding this!  I haven't seen this hilarious commercial in 30 years, and I had forgotten it.

Does everyone agree that we have no idea what is going on with those psychiatrist files from the Committee on Human Rights?  Or have I missed something?  How was that psychiatrist picked as a target for the investigation?  They knew he had info?  How?

If I've missed something in the last two eps, please fill me in. 

[SunnyBeBe]

13 minutes ago, GussieK said:

Thank you for finding this!  I haven't seen this hilarious commercial in 30 years, and I had forgotten it.

Does everyone agree that we have no idea what is going on with those psychiatrist files from the Committee on Human Rights?  Or have I missed something?  How was that psychiatrist picked as a target for the investigation?  They knew he had info?  How?

If I've missed something in the last two eps, please fill me in. 

I thought someone said that it was a list of DISLOYAL RUSSIANS who are in Russia.  But, then, when Oleg was looking at some files, there was a woman's photo.  Who was that? Was it the Russian lady that Stan and his partner are working or someone else?

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I thought someone said that it was a list of DISLOYAL RUSSIANS who are in Russia.  But, then, when Oleg was looking at some files, there was a woman's photo.  Who was that? Was it the Russian lady that Stan and his partner are working or someone else?

That was Oleg's mother. He was looking at her file from when she was in the prison camp and there was an old photo of her in it.

The files were, according to Gabriel, a list of dissidents back in the USSR who were highly organized.

[tennisgurl]

25 minutes ago, jjj said:

to "the U of I", meaning Indiana University, where it was filmed.

I thought the same thing! I grew up in Indiana and had lots of friends who went to IU and the completely unrelated U of I (University of Indianapolis) so it really stuck out to me. NOBODY would call IU Bloomington U of I, even someone who was just passing by. Mistake of the writers, or mistake of the character? Since the writers are usually so throughout, I have to think it was a mistake of the character. I'm not saying that makes her a spy, but the plot does thicken.

Edited April 19, 2017 by tennisgurl

[EtheltoTillie]

4 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

That was Oleg's mother. He was looking at her file from when she was in the prison camp and there was an old photo of her in it.

The files were, according to Gabriel, a list of dissidents back in the USSR who were highly organized.

Well, I didn't necessarily believe this, for one thing.  Plus, we still don't know why this psychiatrist would have had such a file and how the Centre would have known to target his office.  

[Moose135]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

...was this actually a thing they showed on TV? I mean, its not like people in the USSR were going to see it and get offended, but that's just such a weird marketing choice. Man, I wasn't around for the 80s, but everything I've seen tells me it was strange times.

It absolutely was a real commercial!  I loved it, and some of us still quote it from time to time.  And yes, there were some strange times in the '80s.

[Blakeston]

Paige isn't the child of Americans, but I'd say she's very much an American anyway. She was born here, so she's a citizen, and she's entirely a product of American culture, education, etc.

I hate to say it, but I could picture her killing herself. I didn't expect her to do it in this episode, but it seems within the realm of possibility. She's dealing with something that virtually no one could understand, and now she's convinced herself that it prevents her from getting close to anyone. And she's sleeping in a closet. That's a really disturbing sign.

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, GussieK said:

Well, I didn't necessarily believe this, for one thing.  Plus, we still don't know why this psychiatrist would have had such a file and how the Centre would have known to target his office.  

I believe it. It was presumably part of the Committee on Human Rights that got them the info. It was supposed to be linked to the USSR's practice of diagnosing dissidents with mental illness. Like they did with Mischa.

2 minutes ago, Moose135 said:

It absolutely was a real commercial!  I loved it, and some of us still quote it from time to time.  And yes, there were some strange times in the '80s.

LOL. Me too. It was just catchy. "Svim-vear!"

2 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

Paige isn't the child of Americans, but I'd say she's very much an American anyway. She was born here, so she's a citizen, and she's entirely a product of American culture, education, etc.

 

Yes, she's not even the child of immigrants, because she didn't know they were immigrants. She hasn't the slightest idea about the first thing about Russian culture at all. She probably feels more connection to whatever countries she may have imagined her ancestors came from.

[EtheltoTillie]

4 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I believe it. It was presumably part of the Committee on Human Rights that got them the info. It was supposed to be linked to the USSR's practice of diagnosing dissidents with mental illness. Like they did with Mischa.

Well, this makes sense.  I just wanted someone to confirm that there wasn't a more explicit explanation that I missed. 

[Umbelina]

11 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I thought someone said that it was a list of DISLOYAL RUSSIANS who are in Russia.  But, then, when Oleg was looking at some files, there was a woman's photo.  Who was that? Was it the Russian lady that Stan and his partner are working or someone else?

On the first page I posted a paragraph from a recap about what Elizabeth was stealing from the shrink. Oh heck, here it is, credit for this is on page one.

Quote

And that’s the queasy theme which, with this episode, seems to be approaching a crescendo: The truth with set you free, but not protected. All these multilayered lies, misinformation, propaganda, secrecy, and fear — fear, above all — allow a people to be manipulated en masse. Not much is said about the group from which this episode takes its title, The Committee On Human Rights. But it refers to a group which investigated and exposed the psychiatric abuse and terror committed by the Soviet government on its people. Before the group’s members were eventually arrested, they revealed a number of ways in which the USSR used (misused, rather) psychiatric methods to suppress dissent, using such tactics as pharmaceutical abuse and false diagnoses like “sluggish schizophrenia.” The latter was an entirely fabricated mental illness “diagnosed” in political dissenters. It was most likely conceived of by the KGB.

Oh, and I completely believe Paige would have one of her screaming meltdowns if her parents told her even part of the truth about the wheat mission.  What's more, I think that it would definitely make her even more on team USA, which is the last thing Elizabeth wants.

I also agree that Paige could kill herself, she's nearing the end of her rope here already.  Philip knows her stress, but he's, once again, choosing Elizabeth over everything, his own well being, and his kids.

[jjj]

Did you notice that Henry was not even referred to by name in this episode?  Just "he".  As in "He's not here", when Phillip looked around to see if their conversation could be overheard.

[EtheltoTillie]

10 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

On the first page I posted a paragraph from a recap about what Elizabeth was stealing from the shrink. Oh heck, here it is, credit for this is on page one.

 

Yes, I had read your post, and thanks.  But the episode still did not explain how in the world this American psychiatrist came to have this secret file in his office, and how the Centre knew about it.  I suppose there will be future revelations of underground dissident networks and the Centre's efforts to infiltrate same.

Edited April 19, 2017 by GussieK

[Umbelina]

2 minutes ago, GussieK said:

Yes, I read your post, and thanks.  But the episode still did not explain how in the world this American psychiatrist came to have this secret file in his office, and how the Centre knew about it.  I suppose there will be future revelations of underground dissident networks and the Centre's efforts to infiltrate same.

Yeah, that may come, especially since the people that wrote it all suffered for writing it.  That's why I hope Elizabeth or Philip actually read it before turning it over.

It didn't really bother me that we didn't find out why that particular shrink had a copy though.  There could be so many logical reasons why someone in the same profession would...I DO want to know if it has any impact on our KGB couple though.

[Quando]

Quote

Breaking Away is one of my favorite movies, and that was a real highlight of the episode for me!

I love that movie too.  I used to watch it all the time as a kid.  It is interesting that Breaking Away also involves someone hiding their true nationality and pretending they are someone who they are not, then realizing he needs to be honest with himself about who he really is.  The main character is

Spoiler

a local kid from Bloomington, Indiana who loves bicycle racing, and Italian professional bike racers in particular.  He goes around everywhere talking about how great the Italian bike racers are, speaking with an Italian accent, and pretending to be an Italian.  He even spends most of the movie dating a girl from the college while falsely telling her that he is an Italian exchange student, has a big Italian family, how great things are in the old country, etc. (like anyone we know?).  He eventually gets the chance to meet his biggest heroes--the Italian Team Cinzano bike racing team, and even compete against them in a local long distance bike race.  The Italians are friendly with him at first, but when it starts to look like he might actually win the race, his heroes on the Italian team suddenly turn on him.  They sabotage him by jamming a portable bike pump into the spokes of his bike to make him crash by the side of the road to ensure that they will win the race.

 

Then

Spoiler

after the race he goes home, crying and disillusioned, rips down all the Italian posters and memorabilia in his room, and from that point on he stops idolizing the Italian bike riders and pretending to be Italian (even coming clean with his girlfriend).  He tells his dad that he realized that the Italians weren't heroes after all, and that "everybody cheats.  I just didn't know."  His dad says sadly, "Well, now you know."

Only then,

Spoiler

after the main character has stopped pretending and is honest with himself about who he really is and what he really wants, does he succeed in winning the big race at the end of the film and getting the girl for real.

Edited April 19, 2017 by Quando
Added spoiler tags for the plot of Breaking Away.

[Umbelina]

Some more about what Elizabeth stole:

http://www.sras.org/snezhnevsky_schizophrenia_soviet_psychiatry

Quote

In this essay, I analyze political abuses of psychiatry in the Soviet Union by exploring Andrei Snezhnevsky's diagnosis of sluggish schizophrenia—a fictional branch of schizophrenia. Snezhnevsky used his false diagnoses to claim that those who opposed the Soviet state were suffering from delusions and an "incoherent relationship to their objective social world."[1] The purpose of this was to discredit dissidents.

Quote

 

As part of its welfare state, the Soviet Union kept close control of health care, focusing on psychiatry in particular as a tool for monitoring citizens and carrying out political repression by giving psychiatrists power to act as penitentiary guards against vocal political dissidents. As dissident and noted physicist Andrei Sakharov claimed, "the diagnosis of mental illness is fuzzy and this increases the likelihood of mistaken, arbitrary or criminal actions. The menace is especially grave in a totalitarian society, where a victim's religious or philosophical beliefs can lead to prosecution."[16] Like other institutions in the Soviet Union, psychiatry sought to protect the social and political interests of the state in addition to its more obvious, everyday tasks. Unlike their Western counterparts who took the Hippocratic Oath, Soviet psychiatrists swore to the Oath of the Soviet Doctor which, as historian Robert van Voren argues, "made clear that the Soviet Doctor's ultimate responsibility was to the Communist Party, not to medical ethics."[17] The Oath of the Soviet Doctor required the physician to swear to be guided by "the principles of Communist morality, and to always bear in mind the high calling of a Soviet physician and responsibility to the people and to the Soviet state."[18] This allowed for abuses of psychiatry that served the best interests of the state instead of the patient.

 

So Misha was in prison, disguised as a psychiatric unit.

It's a long article and very thorough, with footnotes, and spans the early 1900s through modern days.

How the Soviets used their own twisted version of psychiatry to suppress political dissent http://io9.gizmodo.com/5940212/how-the-soviets-used-their-own-twisted-version-of-psychiatry-to-suppress-political-dissent

Quote

Over the course of its 69-year history, the Soviet Union was notorious for its heavy-handed suppression of political dissent — most infamously through its use of the Siberian GULAGs. But it was during the 1960s and 1970s that the Communist Party took their intolerance for ideological deviance to extremes by diagnosing and institutionalizing so-called counterrevolutionaries with mental illness. It was a frightening episode in Soviet history in which perfectly healthy citizens could be deemed psychotic simply on account of their political views.

Quote

 

Moreover, it served as a powerful and disturbing way to convince the masses that they needed to adhere to the party line — and that any deviant thinking was surely a sign of mental instability. As Nikita Khrushchev noted in 1959, it should be impossible for people in a communist society to have an anti-communist consciousness, and "Of those who might start calling for opposition to Communism on this basis, we can say that clearly their mental state is not normal."

Consequently, it was around this time that Soviet definitions of mental disease were expanded to include political disobedience. But in the end, all it ever amounted to was a form of political abuse and repression. Anti-Soviet activists were not mentally ill — but instead the victims of politically inspired pseudoscience and the misuse of psychiatric diagnosis.

 

This one is even better, since it was written in 1986 and published in the British Medical Journal.

http://www.bmj.com/content/293/6548/641

Dang, I hope Philip or Elizabeth look at what they stole!

2 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

That movie is 38 years old. The statute of limitations on spoilers ran out decades ago.

Seriously, and by the way, I hated that movie.

Edited April 19, 2017 by Umbelina

[Umbelina]

http://www.nytimes.com/1983/01/30/magazine/the-world-of-soviet-psychiatry.html?pagewanted=all

Published in the NY Times in 1983.  I keep thinking of Philip asking Paige when she started reading the newspaper, and her response "I read the newspaper."

Why doesn't she have more questions then?  Soviet news wasn't good, at all, back in the eighties.  This does raise the question again about why Elizabeth had to steal that report though, wouldn't Moscow have the report?  Or was it for American reaction to it? 

Another dangling story, hopefully they will tie it in or address it, since at least Liz didn't murder someone to get it.  I haven't found the specific report though, anyone?

More background here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_abuse_of_psychiatry_in_the_Soviet_Union

[SunnyBeBe]

Perhaps, Paige could use some psychiatric care about now. Sending her to a boarding school, rehab facility, etc., would likely take some of the pressure off of her, but, how would Pastor Tim and Stan respond? They'd likely be too curious as to why it's happening and butt in.  That could prove problematic and even get them killed.  

[Knuckles]

I've been thinking a lot about Gabriel's "nobodies" speech to Philip...we were all "nobodies". As Philip wrestles with his memories of his father, and that shocking image of his mother washing blood off his work boots...he hears that Gabriel as well did terrible things...to 'counter-revolutionaries' and to innocents simply swept up in the madness. What counts as terrible things...just about any horror imaginable...the slaughter before, during and after the war was the Stalinist nightmare. So here is civil, apparently gentle Gabriel with his own terrible history. And here is Philip, confronting the history of the country he serves...by committing betrayals and murder. No wonder everyone is exhausted.

[Penman61]

I bow to no one in my past proselytizing for this show: I've gotten many friends to watch it.  I'm a booster.

But this season is now officially dragging.  It's not just the pacing; it's the absence of dramatic tension.  It's also drawn-out story lines that are ending up as cul-de-sacs without any stand-alone justification.  Both Burov's story and Fields of Wheat could have been dramatically cut proportionate to their story weight.  

Finally, echoing many others, the Paige plotline is now simply preposterous and the actress is wanting.  Since that is this season's narrative centerpiece, it's the key reason season 5 has been much less compelling than its predecessors.

On the plus side, Keri Russell's hair looked goddamn fabulous in the opening scene at Gabriel's.  (See, I'm not a hater.)

Edited April 19, 2017 by Penman61

[Erin9]

It's a little thing, but I thought it was interesting that Gabriel told Elizabeth to have her "husband" stop by. I don't recall Gabriel ever referring to them that way. He always used their names. 

[BetyBee]

I never thought Paige was suicidal or that Pastor Groovyhair would make a pass at her.   The Paige story is just unfortunate in general, imo, though.  

I predict that Oleg seeing his mother's file, will inform him that his father is not his father (which could help explain why they didn't get along) and it will further contribute to his disillusionment with the Soviet Union.  

[SunnyBeBe]

9 hours ago, Erin9 said:

I wonder if Gabriel really will get to retire. Gaad died during retirement. William died just before. So now we have Oleg, Gabriel and Misha home. 

P&E's lives are going to get a lot more difficult with Claudia as a handler. I really will miss Gabriel. He genuinely cared for them and vice versa. Claudia coming back when they're both faltering will be interesting to watch though. 

Watching P&E lie to Paige was sad, but I got it. They're struggling enough with her without having to backtrack on things and explain what a mess their bosses got them into. That'll inspire confidence. Kind of like Philip and Gabriel. 

I guess I'll be in the minority. I liked the episode. I think the season has gotten stronger as it's progressed. It's really become about a bunch of people who are getting progressively tired and dissatisfied with their jobs and their bosses questioning their loyalty. What do they do? What is the most important thing? Who are they really- as people? And where did they come from- their families- I mean?

Are we done with the wheat thing? They got Gabriel the plant. Are we now going to focus on the Russian family and that list Elizabeth got? I'm curious about both. 

Ref. bolden above.  GOOD point.  I hadn't thought about that.  Retirement is a very risky time.....oh my.  I hope Gabriel's wasn't messed up.

I agree with those who commented about some comical parts.  Like, when Gabriel is talking to Paige and comments on ALL THE LIVES her parents have SAVED!  Cracked me up.  Even Liz looked a little taken aback.  lol

[Sarah 103]

19 hours ago, benteen said:

I don't see how the Centre could think that Paige would make good spy material.

They hadn't met her. They didn't really know who she was. After meeting her, Gabriel instantly knew she was not cut out for this kind of work. 

19 hours ago, MissBluxom said:

In hindsight, wouldn't it have been better for P & E to have told Paige something close to what they did but agreed to have "distorted" the main facts? For example, they could have told her they worked in espionage but for some other country - maybe some Eastern European country.

I'm surprised they didn't tell her they were spies, but worked for another agency, and not to tell Stan because he couldn't know, because he didn't have the level of clearance needed to know about thier existence as spies. 

10 hours ago, Erin9 said:

I wonder if Gabriel really will get to retire. Gaad died during retirement. William died just before. So now we have Oleg, Gabriel and Misha home. 

Oleg isn't even close to retirement. Oleg is still working, which means he is not in the same position as William, Gaad, and Gabriel.

9 hours ago, Blakeston said:

I've felt all along that if someone from the Center had a brief conversation with Paige, that would be all it took to convince them that she isn't spy material.

And that's exactly what happened. Imaginary points to you! 

7 hours ago, misstwpherecool said:

And why bring Paige to meet Gabriel and she's smart enough to remember or figure the location. I get sooner or later they have to try to officially 'recruit' her but wouldn't neutral location be better/safer?

My guess is that they are about to change safe houses. I'm sure they rotate through them every so often. 

6 hours ago, DoubleUTeeEff said:

Yes, is Philip being paranoid?  If he is, it wouldn't matter what Gabriel said.  Gabriel doesn't seem to know who is paranoid.  He first asks Philip if he's being serious, almost incredulous that Philip would ask that question.  Then he acknowledges that they might not tell him in case Philip did ask, which suggests that he wouldn't be surprised to find out that she was one of them.

I think Gabriel thought that Philip was just being paranoid, and Gabriel is glad to be getting out now. I'm sure he's also worried about Philip. 

6 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

If her parents weren't spies she would have eventually dumped him for not sharing that drive. What sucks for her is that her parents are the heroes here, but they're not heroes she can understand and easily follow. 

I'm surprised she didn't use that as the excuse for the break-up: we're too different, we're interested in different things, I need to be with someone who shares my passion, we have nothing in common, and variations on that. 

4 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I'm pretty sure Oleg is younger then Philip (I've always thought he was early 30s, while P & E were more early 40s), so I have no idea if that could work, but...

Oleg is at somewhere between 5-10 years younger than Philip and Elizabeth. 

Once Stan found out everything was okay with Oleg, I cheered. Paige was clearly trying to process what Gabriel was telling her. It will be interesting to see what happens. 

Edited April 19, 2017 by Sarah 103