S01.E04: Episode 4

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Quote

Margaret’s debts are mounting. Lydia’s campaigns against her and Florence’s religious tirades outside the brothel are taking a toll on business, and if Margaret and North can’t find a way to entice new clients the business could soon flounder. Can they embrace their notoriety, and use it to their advantage? An illicit masquerade could provide just the right type of publicity, but will it make them or ruin them?
 
Lucy has always imagined she’ll follow in the footsteps of her thriving and successful older sister. But she is finding her new profession more of a struggle than she ever imagined. Charlotte is determined to help introduce her younger sister to the highest echelons of society. But Charlotte is sailing close to the wind with Howard, and Lucy is in danger of becoming a pawn in their power play.
 
The masquerade could have other far reaching consequences - bringing Amelia closer to a surprising new friend, and offering Harriet an unexpected way to fight for her children. And though her orders are to keep up her nightly protests outside the Wells’ brothel, can Florence finally extricate herself from Lydia’s clutches?
 
Emily is struggling with life under Lydia’s rule, and she’s desperate to escape. Can she persuade Charles to help her? Lydia’s attention is engaged elsewhere as she continues to procure unsuspecting girls for Cunliffe.

[SillyOldClothCat]

This show just keeps getting better - I'm hooked!

Edited April 19, 2017 by SillyOldClothCat

[Slakkie]

I know me too!!  It is great!

[OtterMommy]

I quite enjoyed this episode, mostly because it wasn't what I expected.  I'm not entirely sure how Margaret could afford to throw a masquerade, although it did look like she was pulling in quite a bit of coin.  It broke my heart to see Harriet decide to take up prostitution, but I also saw something very empowering for her.  I was hoping that we were done with the Reptons (honestly, I don't know which one is more revolting), but whatever.

I'm starting to think that what goes on in Lydia's house is more interesting than what goes on in Margaret's (although, with Margaret's house, we have the luxury of getting to know her girls better).  My guess is that her son will be her downfall.

Finally, who brings a goat to an orgy?  Well, I mean, I guess Lord Repton does...but still...

[nodorothyparker]

I wasn't expecting that to be the logical progression of the endless sniping between Charlotte and Haxby but I suppose given the show and subject matter it's not that surprising.

Loved the masquerade as it brought nearly all the storylines together in one place.  If you're going to have a religious zealot standing outside your door at all hours screaming about your house being the bowels of hell you might as well make the most of it, and they certainly did that.  The Reptons are just the worst kind of squicky, but hey, they brought a goat.  Margaret and Will continue to be a great team, and George Howard is threading that line between too ridiculous for words and unsettling with his running hot and cold with his possessiveness that Charlotte seems to steadily be losing a handle on.  Just how thoughtless and self-absorbed does he have to be to propose having his mistress give birth to a child for his wife to raise?  

Maybe there will be fallout from it down the line but I rather liked the handling of the story of Harriet taking control of her life, maybe truly for the first time ever.  It was done very nonjudgmentally in her realizing that the other girls might also have children and were doing what they had to do to provide for them and that it really was as simple as that.  She's just coming off the realization that she's spent however many years as a slave mistress with unsigned freedom papers where she was never in a position to truly consent to anything and it didn't provide her or her children any protection in the end.  So her taking charge and uttering the line that "at least I'm finally getting paid" rang true to me.

Mrs. Quigley is about two steps short of being a full-on Disney villain at this point with her locking up virgins and continually emasculating her son and treating her girls badly.   It was funny that the French girl wouldn't help Emily get out and then ended up doing that herself.  Years of reading English novels tell me that if she's in debt 60 pounds to Quigley, she owes a couple of years of working class salary.  That's pretty coercive to put up with abusive customers.

I am wondering where they're going with the story of Lucy really not seeming to like sex or anything about the life at all.  With no father, fortune, or famous name, it's not like she really has any good options outside of this.

[OtterMommy]

8 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

I am wondering where they're going with the story of Lucy really not seeming to like sex or anything about the life at all.  With no father, fortune, or famous name, it's not like she really has any good options outside of this.

This is what I don't get.  Didn't she come onto the stable boy in an earlier episode?  Now, I realize that there is a difference between initiating a sexual encounter and being sold into one (by your mother), but her frightened virgin act is a little hard for me to buy.  Pure loathing I would understand, but this sort of scared misunderstanding?  Not so much.

[nodorothyparker]

She did. She talked the stable boy into paying her after some of the other girls were comparing first time stories, which at the time I admired for taking some initiative to have some control over that instead of just being a commodity for her mother.

Now that I'm really thinking about it, I feel like there's some commentary the show is trying to make about Lucy's obvious trauma at the hands of the Reptons when she lives in an environment where they all have to continue to smile and court these odious people for their connections.  It's not like she can expect them to face any consequences for hurting her or even just never have to see them again.  The AV Club reviewer is mulling over this too, pointing out that we also saw Emily get pretty roughed up this episode by a guy everyone was vying to continue inviting into their houses and that most of these women probably have these stories.  The other girls all seem to have figured out ways of dealing with it, as with Emily using it to get Quigley's son firmly on her side, while Lucy isn't there yet.   That shouldn't be surprising either though considering that she doesn't seem to have figured out what her persona is in this life, whether it be flirty or demure or dominating or dead-eyed or what.

[pamplemousse]

I think Lucy has PTSD from her weekend in the country with those grotesque Reptons. I wonder if Lord Fallon will become her keeper and if so, will she emerge stronger and with some measure of power and security or end up completely broken. If I'm not mistaken, his was the name that Cunliffe gave to Quigley as being one of the "Spartans" who is into destroying virgins. Fallon's creepy as hell, but I wonder if anything could be worse than those utterly nasty Reptons.

I'm really enjoying watching the storyline involving Quigley, her son Charles, and Emily Lacey, I find it so interesting. I'm also finding the storyline involving Harriet, her children, and that odious boy Benjamin Lennox very interesting. For a while I was thinking Benjamin Lennox was going to end up Lucy's keeper since the first time he visited Margaret's brothel he sneered that the only girl there he would even consider is Lucy. It's pretty apparent that Lucy needs a wealthy keeper, otherwise she's in an unstable position regardless of how much Margaret would try to protect her and I thought maybe Benjamin Lennox would be the least of all evils since he's younger and she could probably think rings around him considering he's such a pompous little twit. But it's starting to look like maybe her keeper might end up being Lord Fallon? I just really hope it won't be Osborne (I don't think Margaret would allow that to happen, if she knows Osborne's reputation).

What happened between Charlotte and Haxby seemed a forgone conclusion, it was obvious to me from nearly the beginning that much of his antipathy towards her arose from jealousy and desire. I didn't think it would happen this soon, though, and I didn't think that she would be the one to kind of start it. I'm concerned for her position, it's been precarious due to Howard's growing mistrust and now I'm worried the vile Haxby will blackmail her, he seemed quite disgustingly smug after their encounter.

This show is turning out to be so good (the music seems to have gotten less distracting and intrusive or maybe I've just grown accustomed to it), but I'm worried for Lucy and Charlotte and Harriet. 

It's a wonder that this show manages to make all but maybe 2 male characters (North and his & Margaret's son) utterly repulsive and yet still interesting to the point that I want to see more of them if only in hopes that they all get what they deserve. What a load of utter bastards, all be it interesting ones.

Edited April 20, 2017 by pamplemousse

[legxleg]

6 hours ago, pamplemousse said:

I think Lucy has PTSD from her weekend in the country with those grotesque Reptons. I wonder if Lord Fallon will become her keeper and if so, will she emerge stronger and with some measure of power and security or end up completely broken. If I'm not mistaken, his was the name that Cunliffe gave to Quigley as being one of the "Spartans" who is into destroying virgins. Fallon's creepy as hell, but I wonder if anything could be worse than those utterly nasty Reptons.

I missed that about Lord Fallon being the name given to Mrs. Quigley! Now I'm even more worried about Lucy. Fragile-girl-to-be-broken is not a good niche. And I agree that Lucy's experience with the Reptons has messed her up and made her existing troubles with awkwardness worse. When she seduced the stable boy she was pre-Reptons; I doubt she'd do that now. At least her song went over well.

I was a little sad to see Harriet becoming a prostitute after saying she didn't want to do that last week, but I suppose it was inevitable so I'm glad that she is the one making the choice and is doing it in a way that gives her some power. Count me as another one who really liked her line about getting paid for the first time in her life. She was smart to make her persona an imperious one, which lets her have more control than she might otherwise have. I also thought that her allusion to Dido was interesting because it sounds like she's more educated than a lot of the girls in the house. Considering that she was a slave until just recently, that's extremely impressive, and I am curious to learn how she managed it.

I'm curious to see how things go with the Puritan's daughter and the prostitute who kissed her (does anyone know her name?). Is that prostitute part of Margaret's house, or is she someone who goes around on the street? 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

The Quigleys are such an odd family. I don't know what Emily has done to deserve Charlie's little crush. You'd think that part of being a harlot would be knowing how to read a room and manipulate people to get what you want through flattery, but Emily doesn't even try to pretend that she likes Charlie, despite the fact that he's the only one in the entire house who has been remotely kind to her. Instead she's openly hostile to him and blames him for being stuck with a client like Mr. Osbourne. I totally get that Osbourne is violent, but first she acts like it's Charlie's fault that she has to see this guy and then she turns around and tells him that he's a momma's boy. It's one or the other, Emily.

I wasn't sure whether to believe the note that said Lord Fallon was one of the creepy virgin rapers, only because there's nothing to stop Cunliffe from writing down any name. Unless Quigley is going to stand outside the door to see who goes in, she has no idea if he's telling the truth or just writing down names of rich men. But then Fallon acted like a total creep for the rest of the episode so it seems totally believable that he's one of the pervs insisting on virgins.

I agree that Lucy seems extremely unprepared for her life as a harlot, especially since she was raised in a brothel. It's more understandable for someone like Harriet who turned to the profession out of desperation, but Lucy and Margaret have always known that this would be Lucy's life. Did Margaret and Charlotte not give her ANY instruction beforehand? One of the reasons to go to a harlot is to have an enthusiastic sex partner. At the beginning of the episode, she was just lying back thinking of England. I totally get that she has Reston PTSD after that terrible weekend, but the only time that she even tried to appeal to anyone was when she sang. George definitely took advantage of her though. Even though she did initially try to say he had to talk to her mother first, she gave in. I'm pretty sure that any of the other girls in the house would have found a way to get paid. She just seems completely clueless about how any of the business works.

53 minutes ago, legxleg said:

I'm curious to see how things go with the Puritan's daughter and the prostitute who kissed her (does anyone know her name?). Is that prostitute part of Margaret's house, or is she someone who goes around on the street? 

Violet doesn't work at Margaret's house. She and Betsey are street prostitutes, but at the party Margaret told Betsey that if she did well that night, she might have a place for her in the house.

During the first episode, I was trying to figure out if Haxby was in love with Charlotte or George. Even after fucking Charlotte, I'm still not sure. I think he gave in to his physical lust but now his plan is to tell George what happened so that he'll finally get rid of Charlotte. Even though George was stung when he overheard Charlotte educating Lucy, he's been jealous since the first episode which is so unattractive to me. Ugh. He was such a sulky, sullen brat when they were talking to his friends at the pub. I hope that Charlotte is able to find someone to replace him soon. When he brought up Charlotte having his baby and pretending it was his wife's, she clearly wasn't interested but I couldn't tell if it was because she was genuinely concerned with how terrible that would make Caroline feel or if she didn't want to be inconvenienced with nine months of pregnancy or what.

I loved Harriet taking the dominant role with creepy Lord Reston. I'm glad that she is finding this empowering and that she didn't flinch when Benjamin Lennox called her a whore. Loved that she told him that she's finally getting paid for the first time in her life. Suck it, Lennox! I also liked that when Reston said he was interested, Margaret made sure to upcharge him for the privilege. I hope Harriet is able to make enough money before Benjamin sells her kids.

[tennisgurl]

I really liked this episode! This show has me hook line and sinker. Even the weird anachronistic music is working for me now.

My biggest complaint right now is that I don't totally "get" Lucy and her meekness, knowing her background. I can understand and sympathize with her reeling from the creepy Reptons, but you would think her mother, sister, or the other girls would have given her some tips on how to deal with the aftermath of violent and nasty clients. I'm sure things like that have happened to many of them, and they keep on keeping on. I guess it just takes practice or ways to cope, but I would think someone would have talked to Lucy about it. She seems to have zero interest  in sex in general, or being appealing, except for the guys into the "doe eyed virgin" thing. At least she got a win when she was singing, she has a nice voice. If only lounge singer was a viable career option for her!

On the one hand, I'm sad that Harriet has to start hooking after saying she didn't want to last week, but on the other hand, it was also a rather empowering moment for her, finally getting to take some control of her own life. And she even got the up on creepy Repton! And she has a real flair for the dramatic in her professional capacity apparently.

 Mrs. Quigley is basically turning into the bad guys from Taken at this point. She has her moments of humanity, but she is mostly the nastiest person on the show as of now. Well, Harriot's shitty little step son is the nastiest person, but hopefully he wont be around very much. I'm waiting for Charlie to finally tell his mom to kindly fuck off by the end of the season. Your mom can only tell you what a pansy you are and how she regrets having you so many times I would think.

The Hell party was so much fun that even one of Quigley's girls defected! I don't blame her at all for wanting to get out of there. Its a fancier place, but at least Margaret actually gives something of a damn about her girls, and she actually lets them leave if they want to.

Charlotte is really in trouble with Howard and keeping him in line. She really needs to consider making an alliance with his wife, or even his bitchy servant (who apparently has the hots for her) to keep him from escalating things, or kicking her to the curb. I assume things are going to get even worse as she gets closer to her Irish sidepiece. Which, I do kind of like their relationship, even though we don't know him very well, or have much of a feel for them (other than the one big thing they have in common), but its nice to see Charlotte with a guy she can be somewhat real with, and doesn't have to be all sexy with all the time.

The worst thing about this show is that I cant binge it. It seems very bingeable.

[Ripley68]

I was wondering if Lucy's problem is that sex is painful for her. She is not only not looking at the cull, she is flinching. With Lord Moron and Lord Creepy, I can see why that would be a problem.  I'm sure after a couple of painful experiences (especially if dry), it would be difficult to enjoy sex without having someone actually take the time to pleasure her for a change.  I'm pretty sure the black harlot is one of Margarets. She was very excited to be moving to richer digs because there would be fatter purses to steal.  Margaret only has 3 in house girls (not counting her daughters), the red head, Fanny and the black girl. The dominatrix is self-employed. Speaking of which, I loved the scene where she and Margaret were chatting at the party, and the dude was on all fours all tied up with some weird thing around his head.

I think its a forgone conclusion someone is going to end up dead this season....any guesses?  Which Harlot?  Which Cull?

[OtterMommy]

5 minutes ago, Ripley68 said:

I'm pretty sure the black harlot is one of Margarets. She was very excited to be moving to richer digs because there would be fatter purses to steal.  Margaret only has 3 in house girls (not counting her daughters), the red head, Fanny and the black girl.

I think that there is some sort of system going here. Margaret has a finite number of rooms and, therefore, a finite number of girls she can keep in her house.  However, she seems to have some pull over many of the street girls in her old neighborhood.  I wonder if she had the only brothel in the area before she moved?  In any case, there doesn't seem to be the sort of corporate competition that she has with Quigley (the woman with the whip...I'm not sure what her deal is.  Is she another madam or a solo practitioner, shall we say?  She clearly works with and has a friendly relationship with Margaret.

[pamplemousse]

I think Lucy's distant babydoll (ew, sorry) thing is probably going to work out for her in the end. I could see someone like Lord Fallon, who wants something a bit more niche and perverse than just an enthusiastic sex partner, being into that kind of odd persona (even if it's not actually a persona but the result of her being traumatized) in a harlot. I think she could attract a very wealthy, socially elevated (even more so than someone like George who is only a baronet), and fucked up keeper. I hope if that happens, Lucy gets some security and power out of it. I'm not that surprised that no one pulled her aside and counseled her about what was going to happen -- you can't really prepare a young girl for a life like that nor can she completely understand it just from being around it, seems like it's something she has to go through, a trial by fire and the ones who manage to move on and deal can even prosper (like Charlotte and Margaret have and probably Quigley as well, I'm sure she was once a harlot herself before she became a madam) and those who don't fall by the wayside. This episode has shown that while sex doesn't seem to be Lucy's forte, she has an ability to goad and interest a certain type of cull -- after all, Lord Fallon had little interest in the masquerade, not even Charlotte was convincing him, until Lucy started talking about it. I see Lucy as on her way to being just as successful as Charlotte has been (although Charlotte's losing her grasp -- no pun intended -- on her keeper) in the family business, except her approach and her targets are quite different, she's like the anti-Charlotte. Charlotte is bold and vibrant and sensual, Lucy is neither vibrant or sensual but she's bold in her own shadowy way. I really like the character and I find her fascinating. I really hope she ends up giving all those gross culls more than what they bargained for when they paid to sleep with such a young girl, ugh. Like I know there were kid prostitutes even younger than Lucy, but she looks very young and childlike and it's just sick and wrong.

[wonderchica05]

Oh, Emily. You're living a rough life, girl. You'd better take any small bits of kindness you can get from Mr. Quigly and don't bite the hand that's feeding you those apples! He really stuck his neck for her, despite his generally sort of jolly creepiness.

I'd happily live the rest of my life without seeing the Reptons again!

I agree that Lucy is going to end up with Lord Fallon one way or the other. Not sure if he's really one of the virgin hunters or if that was just a random name. I'm not sure what Lucy's deal is, other than just being traumatized. She's completely miserable. The others might not love it, but they aren't as depressed as her. Poor thing. Maybe she needs the Irish guy to show her a good time!

I was concerned Haxby and Charlotte were going to burn down the house after he threw that candle down. Then I thought maybe that was part of Charlotte's evil plan. For all her skills she's not doing so well at this point.

[OtterMommy]

32 minutes ago, wonderchica05 said:

I was concerned Haxby and Charlotte were going to burn down the house after he threw that candle down. Then I thought maybe that was part of Charlotte's evil plan. For all her skills she's not doing so well at this point.

Thank you!  I'm glad I'm not the only person who thought that!

[pamplemousse]

1 hour ago, wonderchica05 said:

Oh, Emily. You're living a rough life, girl. You'd better take any small bits of kindness you can get from Mr. Quigly and don't bite the hand that's feeding you those apples! He really stuck his neck for her, despite his generally sort of jolly creepiness.

I'd happily live the rest of my life without seeing the Reptons again!

I agree that Lucy is going to end up with Lord Fallon one way or the other. Not sure if he's really one of the virgin hunters or if that was just a random name. I'm not sure what Lucy's deal is, other than just being traumatized. She's completely miserable. The others might not love it, but they aren't as depressed as her. Poor thing. Maybe she needs the Irish guy to show her a good time!

I was concerned Haxby and Charlotte were going to burn down the house after he threw that candle down. Then I thought maybe that was part of Charlotte's evil plan. For all her skills she's not doing so well at this point.

I think Emily is playing Charles just right. He may think he wants her to be nice to him, but he wants her to treat him the way his mamma treats him with contempt and occasional snatches of affection.

Same. The actor who plays Lord Fallon is listed as being in 5 episodes on imdb so I'm sure we'll be seeing his creepy ass again (pun intended, maybe). I bet he's one of the "Spartans," I don't think that was a lie on Cunliffe's part. Cunliffe offered someone of very high social standing (Charlotte saying more than once that where Lord Fallon goes, the rest of the aristocracy follows) perhaps to satisfy Quigley instead of confirming that the King is (possibly) involved.

Hahaha, I was concerned too about the house burning down. I think Haxby hates both Sir George and Charlotte, I don't think he's secretly got the hots for either of them. I think he loathes Sir George for being a buffoon and yet being able to live well simply due to the happy accident of being born in an elevated station that allows him to have a title, marry a rich woman, have a mistress, and never have to work a day in his life. No matter how hard Haxby works, how clever or intelligent he is, he can never elevate himself to Sir George's level simply because he wasn't born into that social class, he will always have to be a servant. I think Haxby loathes Charlotte because she was born even lower than he and yet she is treated better (to a certain degree) than he is and she even dares to treat him as though he is her servant as well. Of course he desires her because she represents everything he can never have that Sir George can -- enough wealth and social status to not have to work and keep an expensive mistress as well as other servants. Haxby being able to have sex with Charlotte is a victory for him because now he's had what his employer gets on the regular and he hasn't even needed to pay for it. I would be very surprised if he didn't threaten and blackmail Charlotte for further favors or even money. Charlotte is in over her head and I'm worried about her, I think she cares about falling out of Sir George's favor and being cast out without a wealthy keeper, but I also see her as being sick and tired of her situation and Sir George and I think she's on a self-destructive path. I wonder if ultimately the rest of the season will contrast Lucy's rise as a harlot to her sister Charlotte's fall.

[kieyra]

Well, I was sure Haxby was in love with George.

Although his look to Charlotte afterwards was definitely "who's got the upper hand now, bitch?" and not the look of love requited. 

At least I called Violet and Bible Daughter early on.

My weekly question: all right, so the guy who is Charlotte's *obvious* love interest, is ... attached the Repton household and also servicing Lady Repton? So is also a sex worker? Did that happen before or after Charlotte gave him harlotting advice in episode one? Does anyone know his bloody name yet?

Violet and Betsy stayed behind and waved goodbye when the original "moving truck" to Greek Street left. (I rewatched the scene later.) So I believe they are unaffiliated. 

Did not see Harriet's arc coming at all, or rather her taking charge of it. Even though I know it's possibly wishful thinking from a modern perspective, I'm glad to see that it's not just all rape, rape, rape. I'm not smart enough to address the issues of consent when a woman has no other means to survive, but Harriet did seem to relish controlling her own destiny.

Quigley Jr seemed a bit more savvy in episode one, and has regressed in my view. 

Agree with a previous poster that the weekly wait is excruciating. Especially when the show is airing in the U.K. first. I wonder if Hulu is doing any cuts. 

Finally ... I loved this episode. I was expecting it to end with something terrible -- a police raid, a fire, a death, someone stealing all the money they'd made, etc. etc. Last week I mentioned I wanted to see the Greek Street house operational before it all comes crumbling down (and you know it's going to), and I'm glad we got to see them have a win for one night. I actually paused when the party reached an early peak, because I was sure the Huge Disaster was just around the corner and I wanted to put off seeing it. 

(I suppose Charlotte's arc was the main "dumpster fire" throughline, but the stakes still seem uncertain; loss of her keeper will hurt, but right now the primary damage has been dealt to Lucy, and twice now.)

Edited April 21, 2017 by kieyra

[Hazel55]

Well, after a great first episode, a good second episode, and a third episode that dragged slightly, I'd say this show is back on track. A lot happened last night-- not just tons of game changing plot twists, but plenty of deepening characterizations, and some fascinating character contrasts.

My most burning thoughts:

First, Harriett. Harriett, whom I initially assumed would be a one or two episode side character, intended to illustrate the impossibility of being a black female at this time. 

To see her take charge of her destiny like that was both surprising and delightful. (Perhaps I'm dense, but I did not see Harriett falling into prostitution so quickly; and if/ when she did, I assumed that it would be portrayed as a coerced move that further disempowered her.) What was so striking about how she presented herself and entrapped and subdued the utterly creepy Repton was the fact that she did so with such elegance and finesse. She initially played shamelessly (and brilliantly) to Repton and the other guests racist fetishization of her as an African American woman ("I am Dido, queen of Carthage..."), initially indulged Repton's typical attempts at seduction and dominance, only to turn the tables on him at the last minute, in a way that was so subtle and seductive that Repton found it fascinating rather than threatening. 

It's fascinating to compare Harriett's efforts here to Lucy's botched attempts with Repton last week. Lucy, too, attempted to "turn the tables" a little bit on Repton, by gently teasing him about his lack of shooting finesse, but did so in such a way that she infuriated rather than charmed Repton. (Horrendously so, by the way, Repton is clearly a dominating, insecure creep, whose first impulse is to exploit and demean women.) This becomes fascinating when one realizes that here Harriett managed to successfully do the same thing-- she actually took control in a way from Repton, but did so in a way that flattered him and enhanced his feeling of masculinity, so that he was enchanted rather than angered. 

The contrast between the ways in which Harriett and Lucy handled Repton illustrates a lot about their characters. Lucy, while beautiful and young, clearly lacks natural abilities in the area of reading and exploiting customers. Meanwhile, the somewhat older and far more experience Harriett, who on account of her race would be considered "lower" than Lucy by many, is naturally savvy and experienced, and knows exactly how to successfully exploit and handle a man like Repton. Hearing her more or less acknowledge to her (fake) stepson at the end that she now realizes that his father exploited her and never recognized her true worth was the icing on the cake. 

Getting to Lucy, I am really enjoying this storyline, if only because I have no idea where it's going. Unlike other posters, I can completely understand and sympathize with Lucy's attitude and actions throughout the episode. Yes, she was raised in a brothel. And yes, she almost surely does know, on an intellectual level, that prostitution is all about flattering and pleasing the john's. However, on a psychological and emotional level, Lucy is an extremely young (I'm guessing 15 or so?) who has recently been exposed to numerous horrible traumas-- having her sister's paramour attempt to seduce her, being hunted like an animal in the woods by a couple who she though would just invite her over for the weekend, being physically abused during sex by the horrendous Repton. She may "know what to expect" and know what is expected of her, but psychologically, she is unable to deal with the trauma or the emotional cost of selling herself. 

Nor does she seem to have the "correct" sort of disposition to make a successful courtesan or harlot. She is introverted, not exceptionally quick witted, sensitive, and thoughtful; rather than extroverted, witty, and quick on her feet like her more resilient sister. She also seems less psychologically resilient than her sister. It's been made clear in a number of subtle ways that Charlotte is definitely and permanently scarred by both her defloration at 12 and the many demands that life as a sex worker has taken on her since then. Yet she seems to be able to successfully do the things (pretending to enjoy sex, maintaining an externally sunny disposition and positive attitude, pretending to care for her johns) that is necessary for a prostitute to remain successful. It seems as though it is literally impossible for Lucy to do the same; she is more sensitive and more earnest than her sister, and she is having trouble truly hiding both her growing horror and her deeply traumatized psyche. 

The most obvious route for the writers to go would be to have Lucy "find her inner courtesan", learn to charm men and fulfill the demands of the profession, and make this into a story of unlikely triumph. However, much to the credit of the writers, they seem to be going a different direction. Because the truth is, whatever their background, it is believable that there were many girls, despite having beauty and abilities, simply could not deal with the psychological cost of being a high-class courtesan or a prostitute. And from what we've seen so far, Lucy could easily fit into that category. 

A few other brief thoughts:

--Despite the fact that I still find Charles to be an utter creep, I found him pretty sympathetic tonight. His affection for Emily Lacy is obviously sincere, and goes far beyond sexual desire. Seeing the look on his face during his mother's denigration of him was also rather heartbreaking. However, his ultimate refusal to let Emily Lacy escape when she begged him to makes him complicit in his mother's imprisonment of Emily, which keeps him squarely in the "villain" category in my books. 

--Yes, the note that Lydia received did clearly identify Lord Fallon as one of the men insisting upon procuring and deflowering virgins. (Furthermore, though this hasn't been directly addressed, it seems as though having the girls be unwilling is also part of the game for Fallon and his cohorts.) The note, along with Fallon's general creepiness, his attitude with Lucy, and his comments that he "has a matter to attend to" when he leaves the orgy make it clear that he is an active participant in the rape and abuse of the young girls Lydia keeps sending his way. Personally, I think he is shaping up to be this shows big bad; he seems potentially even creepier then Repton, which is saying a lot. A whole lot. 

--I was disappointed with the way the Charlotte/ Haxby thing went. I felt that Haxby having feelings of unrequited lust for Charlotte, and ultimately having the two hook up, was disappointing because so blatantly obvious. Haxby, who works for a irresponsible moron and his almost equally irresponsible and decadant courtesan, has legitimate reason to be resentful towards both his employer and Charlotte. The explanation/ motivation behind his annoyance with Charlotte being "it's all because he lusts for/ wants to dominate her!" seems both cliched and somewhat unfair. And it seems as though, with his look at Charlotte at the end, the writers are setting him up to go full on marvel villain, and start manipulating and controlling Charlotte (sexually or otherwise) next week. Ugh.

--Mrs. Repton is gross, but hey, at least she's getting some from somebody other than her vile, cheating husband who punches her during dinner for no real reason. I know I should be disgusted by her shagging Charlotte's love interest, but beyond my "this couple is creepy" reaction, my real feeling was "well, good for you. I would too if I was married to your husband." 

--I am enjoying the Sarah Waters dynamic between the preacher lady's daughter and the prostitute whose name I can't quite recall right now. Bring on the velvet tipping!

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I wish that Florence being a former harlot was more of a surprise, but it was not at all a surprise that she has now done a 180 and now spends every waking moment haranguing these women. I can't wait until her daughter inevitably finds out and runs straight into Violet's comforting arms.

[Ripley68]

I've always wondered about male prostitutes. How do they get it up for someone they aren't attracted to?  You can't really fake an erection.  Haxby doing Charlotte:  how could he not be hot for her when he sees Lord Moron and her in the act all the time?  I couldn't quite figure out what Charlotte was supposed to be thinking though afterwards.

I know they need Lucy's income to survive, but if her mom thought so much of her, why didn't she raise her to be the Madam or purveyor of culls? Lucy doesn't seem to have a problem with other people doing the deed, and she sees the reality of the situation.

[pamplemousse]

I think it's definitely the "unwilling" aspect that seems to most appeal to Lord Fallon, probably even more than the virgin aspect. It's pretty telling that at the masquerade he told Lucy she was Persephone tricked into the underworld by eating pomegranate seeds, because he's a predator he could instantly tell that she's exactly his type -- unwilling, the type to cry or fight -- that's a turn-on for him because he's depraved and sick. He's also friends with that fucked up Mr. Osborne, so the company you keep and all that. With that said, I don't think he's the big bad of the season, I think that's Quigley. Now that she knows Lord Fallon is one of the Spartans, I think the storyline will go that Fallon will either become Lucy's keeper or a regular, Quigley will find out and find a way to get at Lucy through Fallon with the ultimate goal of destroying Margaret. I wouldn't be surprised if the eventual outcome of the season is that Lucy becomes one of Quigley's girls against her will, like she gets entrapped somehow.

[wonderchica05]

Hmm, Emily could be playing Quigly Jr. I don't know that she's bright enough to think of all that though.

[kieyra]

I do think that "what you see is what you get" with Emily. If she had a little more guile she would have escaped by now. So ... possibly she's serving primarily as a catalyst for the actions of others (Quigley Jr and the French courtesan), rather than being a main player. At least for now. 

[rozen]

Emily knows how to keep her mouth shut. She knows how to turn on the dirty charm to get a cull, she got sweet with Quigly Jr. during her 'demo' and when she swooped in to steal Fallon from the french girl. I think she actually likes him because he's straightforward and simple and she can be herself without repercussion. Quigley likes her because though he is slow, he can probably see through a harlot's charm act a mile away. What they have together is weird and dysfunctional, but real.

I honestly think of this secret hallway tryst is ever caught out, George will toss Charlotte out, but he will kill Haxby. 

Creepy son is totally going to come try to pay for a round with Harriet, isn't he? Good on her for surviving Repton. I guess it's a small virtue that he apparently lets his wife have her own toys and not just share/observe him play with his.

[dleighg]

On 4/20/2017 at 0:21 AM, pamplemousse said:

 

never mind

On 4/20/2017 at 7:02 AM, legxleg said:

I'm curious to see how things go with the Puritan's daughter and the prostitute who kissed her (does anyone know her name?). Is that prostitute part of Margaret's house, or is she someone who goes around on the street? 

I'm pretty sure she was in Margaret's house, at least in their old place. Ned's son made some reference to her (comparing her to his half-siblings) when he visited.

What does Lydia "do" with the deflowered virgins afterward? It seems she was selling the first girl (as what? A prostitute? Or a scullery girl?) to a woman last time.

[Nancypants]

21 hours ago, wonderchica05 said:

Hmm, Emily could be playing Quigly Jr. I don't know that she's bright enough to think of all that though.

Crazy like a fox, her.

[kieyra]

Violet is the woman who kissed Bible Daughter. But she didn't go with the main cart during the move to Greek Street. She and Betsey stayed behind and waved. We've mostly only seen the two of them on the street, so for now I think they're independent contractors.

[Ripley68]

I'm rewatching.  Violet and the singer girl seem to have some sort of understanding with the dominatrix.  Violet took 2 of her culls to the dominatrix's house in the first episode, and the dominatrix woke them violet and the other girl up to go look for Mary Cooper.Lucy doesn't seem to have a problem with her future until after her trip to the Reptons.  She jokes with the other girls and is saucy with men until then.

[wonderchica05]

55 minutes ago, Ripley68 said:

I'm rewatching.  Violet and the singer girl seem to have some sort of understanding with the dominatrix.  Violet took 2 of her culls to the dominatrix's house in the first episode, and the dominatrix woke them violet and the other girl up to go look for Mary Cooper.Lucy doesn't seem to have a problem with her future until after her trip to the Reptons.  She jokes with the other girls and is saucy with men until then.

Betsy does ask her officer in this episode if he would rather go inside. I think they probably have an informal arrangement with Nancy to use her house, and they're all friends. Margaret wouldn't have suggested maybe offering Betsy a place at her house if she was working for her friend the dominatrix.

[Zima]

I hate to be THAT person, but I totally called that Charlotte and that dude (whose name escapes me) were going to hook up several episodes ago. I'm only bringing it up now because absolutely nobody agreed with me, so I felt the need to gloat. Bahahah!

Loved the episode, loved the orgy. I assume the goat was there because goats sometimes symbolize The Devil/Satan. 

[pamplemousse]

On 4/22/2017 at 2:58 AM, rozen said:

Creepy son is totally going to come try to pay for a round with Harriet, isn't he?

I could see that happening. I wonder if the show is going to explore more his burgeoning "relationship" with Kitty Carter. The first time he saw her he was supremely disdainful, the second time they slept together as payment when he wanted his father's money from Margaret, and the third time was at the masquerade where he was shown cavorting with her again (and she definitely appeared to have the upper hand). For all his sneering at Margaret's brothel and her girls not being worth ten shillings, he's certainly been spending quite a bit of time with Kitty Carter. Looks to me like she's got him on the hook. I like her and I hope she finds herself a wealthy keeper so she can better her situation as well as help her daughter more.

[kieyra]

6 hours ago, Zima said:

I hate to be THAT person, but I totally called that Charlotte and that dude (whose name escapes me) were going to hook up several episodes ago. I'm only bringing it up now because absolutely nobody agreed with me, so I felt the need to gloat. Bahahah!

Loved the episode, loved the orgy. I assume the goat was there because goats sometimes symbolize The Devil/Satan. 

For what it's worth I still have no idea why those two banged, because their loathing never seemed to be of the sexy sort. If they were supposed to be teasing a potential "hate fuck" it was lost on me. 

[OtterMommy]

10 minutes ago, kieyra said:

For what it's worth I still have no idea why those two banged, because their loathing never seemed to be of the sexy sort. If they were supposed to be teasing a potential "hate fuck" it was lost on me. 

I agree with this.  It seemed like they both wanted vent their anger at George and, well, they were in the same place at the same time, so....

I really have no idea where the show is going with this, but I think that's a good thing.

[pigs-in-space]

So how does Quigley know for sure that the girls she's procuring are actually virgins?  Just because they look pure and innocent doesn't mean they are.  I'd love to see her fuck things up by accidentally getting a non-virgin and pissing off her powerful benefactors.

I loved how Harriet handled creepy dude and took charge of that whole situation so she felt a measure of control.  Also glad to see the blind woman's daughter having a bit of fun.  She deserves it.

[OtterMommy]

32 minutes ago, pigs-in-space said:

So how does Quigley know for sure that the girls she's procuring are actually virgins?  Just because they look pure and innocent doesn't mean they are.  I'd love to see her fuck things up by accidentally getting a non-virgin and pissing off her powerful benefactors..

This is a good question, especially since Margaret has sold Lucy twice as a virgin (and, ironically, she probably still would have been a virgin after George if she hadn't done a little business with her own with the stable boy).  I suppose the blood could be part of the deal--if so, I'm sure Margaret could teach Lucy how to fake that.  However, that in itself is not a reliable sign of virginity.  So, it is possible (although unlikely, because the virginal blood--when it happens--doesn't stem from what people thought it did. Not to get too graphic, but it usually results from a combination of friction and lack of lubrication and THAT is something that probably any girl picked up by Lydia would experience) that Lydia Quiqley is supplying girls who will not "prove" their virginity to whoever these men are.

[stanleyk]

18 hours ago, pigs-in-space said:

So how does Quigley know for sure that the girls she's procuring are actually virgins?  Just because they look pure and innocent doesn't mean they are.  I'd love to see her fuck things up by accidentally getting a non-virgin and pissing off her powerful benefactors.

I think the unwillingness of the girl and the physical violence is probably more important to the group than the technical virginity. It seems like this group of charmers is most interested in raping a "regular" girl, so they might not care that much that she's an actual virgin. Just not a pro. 

[penelopetele]

I think that if Fallon is one of the 'Spartans', Lydia could kidnap Lucy and give her to Fallon as he does show a keen interest in Lucy and I'm not sure what's Margaret is going to do about Lucy's whole keeper situation as I'm pretty sure Sir George wants her as well.

[pasdetrois]

I just discovered this series last night. I subscribed to Hulu just to watch The Handmaid's Tale and Hulu pushed this in front of me. I'm delighted to have found it - perfect summertime fare. The colorful costumes and jewels are yummy.

Love the actors, whose faces I recognize from so many other beloved shows (i.e., Lady Repton is also an accountant on Home Fires). Love the characterization of George, Quigley Jr. and the fussy manservant. Love the locales. Love the fops in face paint. Didn't it contain lead?

I believe I've read in several publications that Victorian gentry was also fond of buying young virgins to deflower.

I look forward to finishing the rest of the episodes and hate that there are only eight!

Edited July 9, 2017 by pasdetrois

[aradia22]

Poor Lucy seems too traumatized to even pretend to enjoy sex. Margaret isn't doing her any favors by lying to her about how she's coming across.

I get that apparently you can't just kidnap Scanwell and stuff a sock in her mouth but can't you at least dumb a chamber pot on her to shut her up for an hour?

Why is Lucy walking around on her own in her fancy outfit? 

I'm surprised it took so long for Margaret to figure out how to use Scanwell's diatribes to her advantage.

I wish this show was more like Christina Ricci's Lizzie Borden show. Then Margaret could have Lydia killed and her son would just suck it up and realize his life is better without her.

Yes, how does a sedan carrier have entry to a gentleman's club? It's really starting to bother me. Did his service in the Navy somehow elevate him to captain or some higher rank and we weren't made aware of it? I'm also pretty sure there would have been some anti-Irish bias at the time. Are we supposed to believe that he has a female admirer now? Even if he has some money to spend, they wouldn't let him in a club. Maybe it's not a club and just a gambling house?

Ooh, so Scanwell is an even bigger hypocrite than we thought!

Good lord, Lydia is really choosing the most innocent little lambs to be led the slaughter, isn't she?

If Violet knows that Ratface is a spy, why doesn't she say something?

It was a quick shot but the man kissing Lady Repton is the gigolo Charlotte is always talking to, right?

LOL, how is Harriet already a better courtesan than Lucy? Seems like Nathaniel paid for a better education than Margaret did. You never see Lucy referencing Roman epics. 

I mean good for Lucy for taking some initiative but... singing is not really her strength. Again, that accent. Woof.

I had no idea where they're going with Violet and Scanwell's daughter. Woo, lesbians! I didn't think they'd go there. Again, no idea where this show is going but I'm down for it being fun and having more representation. They should throw out historical accuracy and just have it be a campy mess of debauchery and scheming and backstabbing and one-liners.

Ooh, the French one is defecting. Things are getting interesting this episode.

LOL, what? So Haxby IS into Charlotte? Also, do they know how to take precautions if they aren't using condoms? I totally don't want any of them getting pregnant. God, how tedious would that be as a storyline?

[aradia22]

Quote

I think Emily is playing Charles just right. He may think he wants her to be nice to him, but he wants her to treat him the way his mamma treats him with contempt and occasional snatches of affection.

Haha. This is perfect.

Quote

Although his look to Charlotte afterwards was definitely "who's got the upper hand now, bitch?" and not the look of love requited. 

Yeah. I feel like when it started their faces were like "we're both getting what we want from this" but they cut away to a different scene and when they returned, Charlotte wasn't as happy and it seemed like Haxby was just using her because it was convenient. 

Quote

Mrs. Repton is gross, but hey, at least she's getting some from somebody other than her vile, cheating husband who punches her during dinner for no real reason. I know I should be disgusted by her shagging Charlotte's love interest, but beyond my "this couple is creepy" reaction, my real feeling was "well, good for you. I would too if I was married to your husband." 

Haha, yes. I think it helps that Lucy's deflowering wasn't the creepy threesome I was expecting so aside from not rebelling against her husband (and really, what could she do at the time?) Mrs. Repton isn't that bad. Let her have some fun. Besides, I assume I'm supposed to be rooting for (still don't know his name) to earn enough money to take Charlotte away from this terrible life. *eye roll* If they wanted me to care about a romance between Charlotte and whatshisname they should have built up their chemistry beyond flirty banter and harlot advice.