S12.E17: The British Invasion

[catrox14]

OMG This episode is so bad.

Lucifer said "My LITTLE BRO, Michael'.  WTF THE FUCK SHOW. Seriously, how is that continuity fail allowed to stand?  I just, WAT...Lucifer is the YOUNGEST. Michael IS THE FIRST BORN ANGEL OF THE LORD. WHAT ARE YOU DOING, BUCK LEMMING?!!

[trxr4kids]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Seriously, how is that continuity fail allowed to stand?

CONTINUITY! You can't handle the continuity!!! I couldn't help myself, sorry ; )

[catrox14]

Okay, last season in Hell's Angel, The Horrible Duo,  had Amara say this to Lucifer.

Quote

Amara: As God's favorite, his first son, you may be the one thing in all of creation that he still cares about, the one thing that could finally make him show himself so that I can confront him and he can acknowledge the wrongs he's done me. And then he can witness the utter destruction of all his creation... before he himself is swept away.

And in this episode they have Lucifer call Michael, "His little bro". 

WHAT IN THE HOLY HELL of Bullshit writing are the HORRIBLE DUO doing?

Are they trying to retcon Michael?

[catrox14]

51 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Shouldn't Hess have then killed Ketch because Ketch killed a BMOL?

And then she would have to kill herself, I guess?!

This "kill anyone who kills a BMOL" code seems really difficult to enforce.

I'm picturing an ending a la  Blake's 7 ending where they all kill each other and Sam and Dean just watch. 

[catrox14]

This episode was just plain bad.  I'm too fucking annoyed to deal with ALL THE horrible things

I fucking HATE this stupid Lucifer spawn storyline, so damn much. I can't even.

I didn't like Mick but come on. Killing him off already? Lame.

A kid killing another kid is really pretty dark even for this show.

I can't even with Mary and Ketch.  Mary is dead to me. And I think Ketch was falling for her and when she said it doesn't mean anything, IMO, he didn't LIKE THAT AT ALL. I'm filing that away.

Ugh.

Samleen FTW; Dean and the Colt reunited; Dean being really worried about Cas and trying to get him to call them back; hungover Dean, and Sam's terrible accent were the only things I enjoyed in this episode.

[G-Man]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

OMG This episode is so bad.

Lucifer said "My LITTLE BRO, Michael'.  WTF THE FUCK SHOW. Seriously, how is that continuity fail allowed to stand?  I just, WAT...Lucifer is the YOUNGEST. Michael IS THE FIRST BORN ANGEL OF THE LORD. WHAT ARE YOU DOING, BUCK LEMMING?!!

 

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Okay, last season in Hell's Angel, The Horrible Duo,  had Amara say this to Lucifer.

And in this episode they have Lucifer call Michael, "His little bro". 

WHAT IN THE HOLY HELL of Bullshit writing are the HORRIBLE DUO doing?

Are they trying to retcon Michael?

So in other words its basically like the reapers are angels scenario. Now I see why they made Michael insane ?

Edited April 7, 2017 by G-Man

[catrox14]

Just now, G-Man said:

So in other words they're basically making a reapers are angels scenario. Now we see why they made Michael insane

I'm not sure what Michael being insane has to do with their birth order. I'm not following.

[Mick Lady]

1 hour ago, rue721 said:

Shouldn't Hess have then killed Ketch because Ketch killed a BMOL?

And then she would have to kill herself, I guess?!

This "kill anyone who kills a BMOL" code seems really difficult to enforce.

See my post to Katy. Honestly, I've given up on canon, even one just one episode long.

Super-wiki drives me nuts on this subject!

But we just flat out love this show! It's our show, watched it from the pilot, real time. Mick and I will never give up!

Edited April 7, 2017 by Mick Lady

[G-Man]

Just like the birth order Michael being insane inside the cage is also a continuity fail back in season 4 and 5 it was stated(by Lucifer himself) that he couldn't do a single thing to stop his elder brother from beating him down and cast him out of heaven. Now in s11 and 12 Lucifer is suddenly strong enough to be able tooverpower and  torture him to the point where even God couldnt fix him.

Edited April 7, 2017 by G-Man

[catrox14]

Just now, G-Man said:

Just like the birth order Michael being insane inside the cage is also a continuity fail back in season 4 and 5 it was stated(by Lucifer himself) that latter couldn't do a single thing to stop his elder brother from beating him down and cast him out of heaven. Now in s11 and 12 Lucifer is suddenly strong enough to be able tooverpower and  torture him to the point where even God couldnt fix him.

I don't see those as continuity fails as much as character assassination. I cannot understand why the show has Lucifer and Amara referring to Lucifer as being older than Michael. It's so stupid.

Here's what I'm wondering.

Who is Mary gonna be ordered to kill? She's a formal WoL now.  She's subject to the Code now. 

[Jediknight]

2 hours ago, rue721 said:

Shouldn't Hess have then killed Ketch because Ketch killed a BMOL?

And then she would have to kill herself, I guess?!

This "kill anyone who kills a BMOL" code seems really difficult to enforce.

But Mick questioned the code, when you question the code you are no longer a British Men of Letters.  So Ketch was killing an enemy of them.  Or they frame the Winchesters for it, which should cause Lady Bevill to question it, because Sam and Dean wouldn't kill a person.

[Zanne]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I can't even with Mary and Ketch.  Mary is dead to me. And I think Ketch was falling for her and when she said it doesn't mean anything, IMO, he didn't LIKE THAT AT ALL.

I found that scene so very unappealing. All I could think was it must be like having sex with a block of cement. A tombstone emits more cuddly feels than Ketch. And then they suddenly flashbacked to Cosmo in the 70's with that bare leg from beneath the (furry) blanket thing he was doing. Gah. Is there a way to make your brain vomit so I can rid myself of that entire scene?

[Geordiegirl1967]

6 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

One bright spot, at least it looks like Dean's instincts were correct once again about the BMoLs being bad news.

It's not that straightforward though is it? Which is why this season is so frustrating. Mick was a decent guy. So Sam's instinct to trust him wasn't wrong. Dean and Mary meanwhile seem more taken with Ketch who is clearly a psychopath. Though he may yet choose Mary over his bosses. And while their methods of monster hunting are very black & white, they have saved hundreds of thousands of lives in Britain. So up to last nights ep there were some genuine and moderately interesting questions about the extent to which they were a force for good or bad.

Where the writers blew it was to throw subtlety and all moral grey area about the BMoL out the window in this ep in a ludicrous way. The Hunger Games method of schooling was beyond stupid as well as evil. A school in the U.K. where most of the young children attending end up dying horrifically would be very quickly exposed. Although Mick didn't, presumably most of the pupils had families. His friend did. Also wouldn't most of the attendees have been legacies? Wanting your kids to follow in your footsteps is fine, but volunteering them to get murdered? The MoL wouldn't have lasted even 1 generation if that was the price. Stupid!

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

Dean and Mary meanwhile seem more taken with Ketch who is clearly a psychopath.

How do you figure DEAN was taken " with Ketch? They've barely interacted.

They been around each other for a hot minute in LOTUS and First Blood. After that nothing until the day Dean was in a mood most foul after he and Mary's blowout so  he went out to get drunk. when he came back to the bunker, he was Jonesing for more hard liquor when Ketch showed up with a bottle of fancy Scotch. Dean took the scotch and gave  Ketch the sideeye the entire time..Dean went along for  a vamp hunt, wherein Dean  learned just how fucked up Ketch was when he stopped him from unnecessarily being cruel to the vamp. By the time they got to the BMoL the battle was over . they parted ways at the end of the Raid and have not crossed paths since then..  So where is the evidence Dean was taken with Ketch.?..

Mary  is a whole other kettle of carp.

[Boopsahoy]

I need to watch again tonight but here's my Unpopular Opinion-I liked it on first viewing. I really didn't catch the Lucifer/Micheal comment, so maybe I will like it less on 2nd viewing?? I didn't like everything that happened.  Mary and Ketch-ok show you proved my dislike of Mary was for reasons but it didn't ruin the episode for me. I love the character of Eileen (if they had killed her I would have been very unhappy) and I was just starting to like Mick (That was pretty damn coldblooded of Ketch). 

[catrox14]

Quote

I'd rather be here than rotting in the Cage with my drooling, insane -- and not in a fun way -- little bro Michael

 

Here is the line from Lucifer, when he's talking to Crowley.

[Katy M]

8 hours ago, Mick Lady said:

Katy, you should know better by now than to expect writers to follow canon!

What can I say?  Hope springs eternal.

[Myrelle]

6 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Dean and the Colt reunited;

The one and only decent part of the episode, IMO. Dean and that gun were made for each other. Too bad he didn't get to use it.

Edited April 7, 2017 by Myrelle

[Katy M]

As far as Mrs. Hess having to kill Ketch and someone having to kill Mrs. Hess, and so on, I don't think so.  I'm sure if it's a "state sanctioned" murder, you wouldn't have to kill the person doing it.  It's like capital punishment.  You don't kill the person who gives the lethal injection because they were ordered by the govt to do it.

I am NOT defending their whole death penalty code.  However, I am just saying that there doesn't really have to be anything circular about it.

If I were a BMOL, though, I'd probably come back as a vengeful spirit.  

[Thriftykins]

It bothered me too.  They've been trying to set up the British Men of Letters as villains.  At first they were more morally ambiguous because they held a rigid philosophy of "kill all monsters, no exceptions".  It can seem a little morally discomforting, especially since some people have monsterism inflicted upon them, but it makes sense.  A werewolf who became a werewolf against his will and doesn't want to kill is innocent, but so are the people he kills.

 

But last night, they just kinda turned them into over-the-top mustache twirling psychotics.  Turning children against each other and forcing them to kill? It's completely arbitrary.  How does a school in which children are constantly being killed for what is basically the amusement of some demented adults even function?  How do you do that to people and then try to take the moral high ground against vampires, werewolves, wendigos etc.,?

 

Plus, as was analyzed in a previous post, mandatory killing of anyone who kills one of their own even in a friendly fire incident is beyond stupid.

 

It's like the writers feared they might not be selling the Brits as plausible villains, so they cranked their villany up to an absurd degree.  Like trying to make pancakes, but you turn the burner up too high so you get these things that are burnt on the outside but gooey and undercooked on the inside.

 

I still enjoy the storyline with the nephilim and Lucifer.  Crowley is taking way too much risk and he's gonna regret it later, but it seems in character.  He's not being stupid; he's just arrogant.

[Katy M]

2 minutes ago, Michael Stabosz said:

He's not being stupid; he's just arrogant.

He's being both.  They often go hand in hand.

[Wynne88]

Quote

Dean and that gun were made for each other. Too bad he didn't get to use it.

I bet he does eventually.  I was just glad he didn't act surprised to see it; obviously Sam had told him that the BMOLs had it.  I'm glad.  I was afraid it was going to be one of those secrets that mostly exist to create friction.

[rue721]

44 minutes ago, Katy M said:

As far as Mrs. Hess having to kill Ketch and someone having to kill Mrs. Hess, and so on, I don't think so.  I'm sure if it's a "state sanctioned" murder, you wouldn't have to kill the person doing it.  It's like capital punishment.  You don't kill the person who gives the lethal injection because they were ordered by the govt to do it.

I am NOT defending their whole death penalty code.  However, I am just saying that there doesn't really have to be anything circular about it.

If I were a BMOL, though, I'd probably come back as a vengeful spirit.  

I know, it was a joke. The BMOL code just seems like something out of Monty Python. Whoops, you killed a BMOL, so now I have to kill you - WHOOPS, now I've killed a BMOL so I have to kill me! LOL

The thing of having kids kill each other is ludicrous (why not just put the kids on a hunt and have them kill a monster?). Even Mick's story of being The Artful Dodger until being tapped by Monster Hogworts was pretty silly. 

I dunno, I didn't hate every second or anything, because I liked both Mick and Eileen, but this was a pretty dumb episode.

[Thriftykins]

I like that at least it furthered the story arcs.  Last year they had a great and interesting story arc with God's sister.  But then you kept getting monster of the week episodes like this:

 

Sam: "Blah blah blah Amara."

Dean: "Blah blah blah Lucifer."

Sam: "Okay now that's over with.  Some monster is killing people in Bumfuck, Iowa."

Dean: "WE RIDE!!"

[Katy M]

9 minutes ago, rue721 said:

The thing of having kids kill each other is ludicrous (why not just put the kids on a hunt and have them kill a monster?).

Again, not defending it, but they were ensuring blind obedience.  In a way you wouldn't get with monster killing.  I have to admit that while I was watching it, I thought Mick was going to have a whole fake out of how he didn't actually kill the kid, just put some blood on the knife and then snuck him out.  Yes, they would have to wonder where the body went, but it wouldn't be the most headscratchy thing that happened on the show.

I think I would have liked Mick more, if he had been the one saying, 'let's make a run for it' and then the other kid grabbed the knife and Mick got it away from him and killed him in self-defense.  But, I do have to say, I did like him, and felt really bad for him.  The other BMOLs, not so much. They all suck. 

And, why wouldn't they at least give each kid a weapon instead of only one?  I guess to lessen the amount of injuries on the survivor?

[mertensia]

11 hours ago, Katy M said:

I felt bad for Mick.  The BMOLs ARE monsters.  Not separated from monsters. Who the heck sets children to killing each other?  Sick. 

After being so smart a couple of weeks ago, looks like Crowley lost a couple of brain cells. 

If nephilism is always fatal to the mother, shouldn't angels know that?  Shouldn't they have realized Lily Sunder's kid couldn't have been a Nephilim if Lily was still alive? 

 

Dagon is a demon. Demons lie. I have no problem believing that Dagon -who doesn't care if Kelly survives birth- is saying that to Kelly just to make Kelly know she's doomed.

As for little brother Michael you can take it as either Lucifer thinks that of Michael because their personalities-obedient vs rebel- or that Lucifer calls him that just to annoy the snot out of Michael.

Renny's always announcing his class rankings amused me.

[ILoveReading]

5 hours ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

It's not that straightforward though is it? Which is why this season is so frustrating. Mick was a decent guy. So Sam's instinct to trust him wasn't wrong. Dean and Mary meanwhile seem more taken with Ketch who is clearly a psychopath. Though he may yet choose Mary over his bosses. And while their methods of monster hunting are very black & white, they have saved hundreds of thousands of lives in Britain. So up to last nights ep there were some genuine and moderately interesting questions about the extent to which they were a force for good or bad.

Where the writers blew it was to throw subtlety and all moral grey area about the BMoL out the window in this ep in a ludicrous way. The Hunger Games method of schooling was beyond stupid as well as evil. A school in the U.K. where most of the young children attending end up dying horrifically would be very quickly exposed. Although Mick didn't, presumably most of the pupils had families. His friend did. Also wouldn't most of the attendees have been legacies? Wanting your kids to follow in your footsteps is fine, but volunteering them to get murdered? The MoL wouldn't have lasted even 1 generation if that was the price. Stupid!

When I say Dean's instincts were right I'm talking about the BMoL's as a whole, not one person.

Mick was a decent guy but Sam didn't sign up to work for Mick, he signed up with for organization as a whole because he was impressed with their methods and toys and lore.  He even said he felt they were changing the world and he wanted to be a part of it, and he would make sure Dean came around.  Then he didn't come clean and try to convince Dean.  He lied for weeks and took away Dean's choice at first.  (At first being the key words).  Sam's behavior in the end of episode 15 didn't suggest he ever questioned these guys or doubted their mission statement and even Dean called Sam out on wanting to answer that phone call he got when he finally came clean.

To address the 'Dean worked with them too'  objection  Not denying that.  I've made mention that I didn't like it and felt he caved to easily.  But he worked one case for them and was uncomfortable about it the whole time.  By this point Sam seem enamored with organization, not just Mick. 

Mick was their handler.  He had a change of heart because Sam and Dean equally put human faces to monsters and made Mick realize there were shades of gray.

So Dean's instincts about the organization were spot on.  IMO, they're is no gray area with them.  They order the death of innocent humans in their way, and make kids kill other kids to prove loyalty.  

Not sure how Dean is taken with Ketch.  They shared a glass of scotch and went to hunt a vampire nest.  When Ketch beat the vampire Dean stepped into stop them.  He didn't tell Ketch he wanted to work with him at the end of the episode or keep in touch with him or have contact with him.

Edited April 7, 2017 by ILoveReading

[Katy M]

5 hours ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

Although Mick didn't, presumably most of the pupils had families. His friend did. Also wouldn't most of the attendees have been legacies? Wanting your kids to follow in your footsteps is fine, but volunteering them to get murdered? The MoL wouldn't have lasted even 1 generation if that was the price. Stupid!

Yes, I think besides orphans they picked up on the streets they were all legacies.  Therefore, there missing children wouldn't go reported.  Neighbors wouldn't question anything because they had been away from school.  If you don't send your son for his fighting chance, then you and your whole family would be killed, I would imagine.  But, how there isn't some great revolution against it among the members, I've no idea.  Probably because they're all spying on each other and you don't know who you can trust.

[DittyDotDot]

So, the Brits are making their own little clubhouse of psychopaths? Good for them. That's not at all a recipe for disaster or anything. 

Well, I don't know if this is sign the world is coming to end or what, but I mostly liked the episode. It wasn't perfect, but waaaaay better than expected and while it made no more sense than anything else the show has ever done, nothing jumped out to me as being egregious. I really didn't think the Horrible Duo had it in them. I might have to change their moniker to "The Absolutely Horrible Duo Except When They're Not!" ;) 

Personally, I could really care less about Mick being dead. The guy killed his best friend in order to graduate Hogwarts Horror Academy and Chuck only knows what else he's done in the last 20 years while following orders. I don't know, maybe it was the beard? ;)

12 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I took my dog outside during the Lucifer scenes...I just can't watch him anymore.

BWAHAHAHAH! Sorry, just couldn't help myself.

12 hours ago, Katy M said:

After being so smart a couple of weeks ago, looks like Crowley lost a couple of brain cells. 

Or did he? Maybe he's just letting Lucifer think he has the upper hand?

Yeah, I know, but a girl can dream, right?

12 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Bahaha, all I kept thinking through the episode was "Sam keep your death peen away from Eileen!"

They would be cute together but, I don't want Eileen to die.

Sadly, I think Eileen is not long for this show. But, hey, Sam's peen might be off the hook this time? 

12 hours ago, Katy M said:

BTW, am I the only one who didn't need Mary-Ketch sex?

No sex scenes were seen by me. Mary was just borrowing a cup o' sugar...that's my story and I'm stickin' to it!!!! ;)

10 hours ago, rue721 said:

Shouldn't Hess have then killed Ketch because Ketch killed a BMOL?

And then she would have to kill herself, I guess?!

This "kill anyone who kills a BMOL" code seems really difficult to enforce.

::snort:: So, you gotta kill one to become one, but if you kill one, you die...how's that work out. ;)

Seriously, they're whole premise is a really bad comedy sketch.

7 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Who is Mary gonna be ordered to kill? She's a formal WoL now.  She's subject to the Code now. 

How do you figure Mary's a formal WoL? As far as I know, she's still a hunter who works for them. I'm guessing the reason they did the...um...borrowing a cup of sugar was, now Ketch will have a personal motivation for killing Mary. She did spurn him, after all. 

5 hours ago, lora said:

I find it strange that Dean doesn't want Crowley's help in their search for Kelly.

I wouldn't ask for Crowley's help. He'd only be helpful if it was helpful to him. He is the King of Rotten, after all.

Edited April 7, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Katy M]

6 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Or did he? Maybe he's just letting Lucifer think he has the upper hand?

Yeah, I know, but a girl can dream, right?

I'm actually not 100% convinced that that isn't the case. 

7 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

How do you figure Mary's a formal WoL? As far as I know, she's still a hunter who works for them. I'm guessing the reason they did the...um...borrowing a cup of sugar was, now Ketch will have a personal motivation for killing Mary. She did spurn him, after all. 

Or a motivation to not kill her.  He did seem to enjoy the, um, sugar?

 

8 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I wouldn't ask for Crowley's help. He'd only be helpful if it was helpful to him. He is the King of Rotten, after all.

Yeah, I don't find that weird at all.  Look what he tried to do with Amara.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, mertensia said:

As for little brother Michael you can take it as either Lucifer thinks that of Michael because their personalities-obedient vs rebel- or that Lucifer calls him that just to annoy the snot out of Michael

That.. doesn't make sense though, because Lucifer's entire thing has been being the put upon youngest sibling with issues with big brother and Dad. Why would he say it to Crowley of all people? And Amara called him the first son, last season as well. he didn't even say it TO Michael who is supposedly still in the Cage. He wouldn't have heard him anyway.

What would one being obedient and the other not have to do with it? For a brief  moment, I wondered if MAYBE this was a clue that MAYBE this was Michael, and he screwed up saying Little Bro. but I don't know how that could work.

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

What would one being obedient and the other not have to do with it? For a brief  moment, I wondered if MAYBE this was a clue that MAYBE this was Michael, and he screwed up saying Little Bro. but I don't know how that could work.

That would actually be kind of cool, but other angels can recognize each other.  Though, I suppose Michael may have the power to fool Cas and any other angel he came in contact with.

We've never seen Michael and Lucifer's true forms.  Maybe Lucifer is physically bigger than Michael, so he calls him his little brother.  I've done that to my older sister, though again, to her, not to third parties.

[catrox14]

32 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

ow do you figure Mary's a formal WoL? As far as I know, she's still a hunter who works for them. I'm guessing the reason they did the...um...borrowing a cup of sugar was, now Ketch will have a personal motivation for killing Mary. She did spurn him, after all. 

SHe's been working for them pretty much full time for months now. she's staying in their facilities. She BELIEVES in their methods and using them herself. IMO, she is a de facto Woman of Letters and IMO, they consider her as  such.

[Katy M]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

SHe's been working for them pretty much full time for months now. she's staying in their facilities. She BELIEVES in their methods and using them herself. IMO, she is a de facto Woman of Letters and IMO, they consider her as  such.

Didn't Ketch call her a hunter last night, though.  They seem to have a very "us" versus "them" attitude with hunters.  They feel hunters are beneath them.  They brought up the lack of formal training several times.  Once, OK, they're just talking.  But, if they hammer it home several times in an episode, I think they're trying to tell us something.  And, in this case, I think they were reminding us that Mary is not a MOL (I don't think they use the term WOL) because she wasn't properly trained.  She learned on the job.  she probably didn't even kill her best friend for pete's sake.

I was also thinking about whoever brought up Lady what's-her-name's son.  I wonder if he's set to start school and is there right now.  On his way to a death battle.  If Sam and Dean save him from that, that might bring Lady what's-her-name onto their side. If there has to be a purpose to having her son (and I don't know that there does), that may be it and would be a much better purpose than having Sam and Dean kidnap him.

Edited April 7, 2017 by Katy M

[bethy]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

IMO, she is a de facto Woman of Letters and IMO, they consider her as  such.

I get what you're saying, but given the BMoL and their snobbery, I don't think they do consider Mary one of them. She wasn't trained at their Hogwarts, she learned her skills on the job. To me it seems like they'll always consider her and any American monster fighter, just hunters. I think they're willing to have her be their "dog" (blech), but the implication at the end seemed like Mary might be on the list of to-be-killeds, too. 

Jinx! @Katy M

Edited April 7, 2017 by bethy

[Frost]

After being a faithful viewer from the beginning, I stopped watching this season a couple of episodes in when Mary decided to take off from the bunker rather than attempt to bond with her (now grown up) sons.  Plus, I was not a fan of the BMOL storyline from the start.  From reading this recap, I made the right decision!  It all sounds horrible.

[Myrelle]

42 minutes ago, Katy M said:

51 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

How do you figure Mary's a formal WoL? As far as I know, she's still a hunter who works for them. I'm guessing the reason they did the...um...borrowing a cup of sugar was, now Ketch will have a personal motivation for killing Mary. She did spurn him, after all. 

Or a motivation to not kill her.  He did seem to enjoy the, um, sugar?

I'm intrigued by Ketch. I can't tell if they're going to redeem him before they kill him or not. We saw the name of the top file that he was given as per his assignment-Mary's eldest-and I don't think he'll think twice about killing Dean, not even for her. I think that we were supposed to see Mary as somewhat of an equal to Ketch in that scene excepting that she is still capable of loving and caring about others(that was the writers' intent, anyway, IMO), but his answer of "Good for you." to his  assertion that she wanted to hunt and have it all, too(which I took to mean a true and lasting romantic love and family love) came across as very enigmatic to me-as if he could have been mocking that idea of hers or considering it for himself.

I've found Ketch to be the most interesting character that Dabb and Co. have introduced this season. The only thing I don't like about him is his interest in and propping of Mary because I can't tell if it's part of the storyline that he might fall for her or if it's just the writers again using one character to pimp and prop another character in an OTT manner. I like the actor, though; and again, I think that he's the best of the OCs this season. The actor who played Mick was okay(much better than Claire as one of the focus characters of last week's episode), but his character became too vanilla(thanks, Aeryn ;-) ) to last(and survive the curse of the Winchesters) and you could see that coming from a mile away.

I wouldn't mind keeping Ketch around as long as he doesn't become a LI or prop/pimp master for Mary. But then again, if they kill Mary off(which I'm hoping with all my heart that they will) by the end of this season, that wouldn't be a problem-unless she saves Dean or Sam or both by killing Ketch in the end-which is what I think will most likely happen, but that's just spec on my part.

Still, I'd kind of like to keep Ketch around in S13, just as a hunter who might try to embrace the American way better; meaning he would become his own man just not in that overly syrupy and saccharine way that they tried to do that with Mick.

Edited April 7, 2017 by Myrelle

[DittyDotDot]

11 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

SHe's been working for them pretty much full time for months now. she's staying in their facilities. She BELIEVES in their methods and using them herself. IMO, she is a de facto Woman of Letters and IMO, they consider her as  such.

I don't think it's that simple for the BMoL, though. I think they would still see her as a tamed hunter, but a hunter none-the-less. I mean, she hasn't had the "formal" education they all seem to be so proud of. I think Mary's a target just like all the other hunters, she just doesn't realize it yet.

[Commando Cody]

Perspective is a funny thing. I was looking at Eileen more as a little sister to Sam. Kind of like Charlie was for Dean. It might be a subconscious thing because I don't want anything more than that to happen.  If she survives the BMoL, she'll probably end up dead, eventually, anyway. Or, the character of Eileen might be a peace offering from the writers for killing off Charlie.  

[rue721]

Judging by Ketch's smirk when Doc Hess called hunters dogs, I think that he, and probably the other BMOL, still consider her a hunter, not a BMOL.

Maybe that's what Ketch likes, he feels like he's being naughty and "slumming it" with her.

ETA: or (eww) maybe he's her "honey pot"

Also, if she isn't considered a hunter, then we're left with a Duo episode with no reference to bestiality, and can't have that, right?

Edited April 7, 2017 by rue721

[Boopsahoy]

17 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Didn't Ketch call her a hunter last night, though.  They seem to have a very "us" versus "them" attitude with hunters.

Isn't Ketch himself a hunter for all intents and purposes?

[Commando Cody]

2 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Judging by Ketch's smirk when Doc Hess called hunters dogs, I think that he, and probably the other BMOL, still consider her a hunter, not a BMOL.

Maybe that's what Ketch likes, he feels like he's being naughty and "slumming it" with her.

Also, if she isn't considered a hunter, then we're left with a Duo episode with no reference to bestiality, and can't have that, right?

It's probably why he looked like he was hurt when Mary told him not to read anything into it.  The lowly hunter wasn't going to pine after him. Whatever that was, I'm sure she bruised his ego. 

[DittyDotDot]

2 minutes ago, Boopsahoy said:

Isn't Ketch himself a hunter for all intents and purposes?

Apparently he went to Hogwarts Horror Academy with Mick. So, I think he's a full-fledged member of the organization.

[Wynne88]

There were moments when Sam's interaction with Eileen looked a lot more like Jared was interacting with her, especially early on when she was telling them everything she had found out, both in person and on the tablet.  Just something about the way he smiled at her was more of a Jared expression.  Maybe that's just me, though.

I didn't think if was a horrible episode, but the whole Hogwarts situation culminating in the death fight was way over the top for me.  Even the capes the kids wore looked ridiculous.  I wonder how much fight training those kids got, anyway?  Weren't they destined to become the brains, with lowly hunters doing the dirty work?

[SueB]

@Boopsahoy it's not an unpopular opinion with me!  I thought it was a good episode.  The "kill or be killed" Hogwarts IS an unsustainable concept but other than that, I was fine with it.  As for the rest of the negative comments .... there might be a pony in there somewhere but I can't really get the energy to respond. This forum has been overrun by an "it's all crap" mentality.   

For those who don't feel that everything is crap, please read on....

I JUST got to watch this am as I was on travel.

Thoughts:
- Not!Delores Umbridge was suitably horrible.  But I'm okay with that.  There are suitably horrible people in all organizations.  She needs to die messy --- like Delores in the forest, but actually dead this time. Maybe a ghoul.  Seriously, we've long suspected that the BMoL leadership were shit.  This is proof. Did she lack subtlety?  Yes. More on that on my B-L comment below. 
- Eileen!  And oh-yeah, even Dean was picking up that Sam's a little sweet on her.  I don't think it'll go anywhere (just NOT the show premise), but I kinda like that Sam has a wee crush on her.  It's obviously mutual.  I mean seriously, he wraps those giant arms around her and she melts.  I melted for her.  I liked the Skype/Facetime option for calls.  Very smart.  And I liked how Jensen did the 'let me talk but I'm still driving so it's limited' maneuver.  For some reason, I liked that little attention to detail. 
- I loved the trick to get Kelly to the doctor's office.  Dagon was foolish to randomly kill an obstetrician.  She should have known the boys would be keeping an eye on that profession. Not gonna lie, when Jared started with the accent I crossed my fingers.  He and Jensen have made fun of random Jared accents in the past.  But I thought he did a passable job.  I actually don't know what COUNTRY he was trying to emulate but .... eh.... it worked.  I thought that might be a little Shoshanna creeping through in the thumbs up. 
- Surprisingly, I was okay with the Ketch/Mary hookup.  I saw it in the promo and was squicked, but Mary playing Dean's "don't get attached" card was amusing in light of Ketch OBVIOUSLY being smitten with her.  I mean yes, he's a horrible psychopath -- woodchopper for him -- but I found it funny that he underestimates Mary.  No dude, she has NOT given up on the family.  While I'm not at ALL remotely happy with her being distant with the boys and not having a decent relationship with them, she seems to be using the BMoL as a means to an end right now. I still think she's in over her head but I don't think she has any remote allegiance to the BMoL.  I was sorry to see the wedding ring is no longer on a chain.  
- Crowley, Crowley, Crowley.  You better be using this as a trick to flush out final Lucifer loyalists.  Surely you know better than to trust Lucifer alone with a minion. I do like that Luci is still plotting. I hope Crowley has already figured that out.  
-  The BMoL are clearly going to fail. First, what ignorant fool puts Dean Winchester on the top of their KILL list? Ha! That'll end well.  Also, Not!Delores is a fan of Lady Toni.  Given the "legacy" of sending your child to a kill or be killed outfit, I can see Lady Toni coming in and re-vamping (oy, the puns... not actual vamps, of course) the organization AFTER Not!Umbridge gets herself killed.  Her son is her only child, that Hunger Games shit is not only stupid but unsustainable. But Lady Toni is still a whack-job in my opinion. 
- Rosemary's Baby is coming along.  So now Kelly has been told she's going to die.  I'm worried about how they are going to handle this.  At first it's "Devil's spawn!"  Then it's "a child" and they are trying to work with Kelly.  Now it's "evil before birth and will kill it's own mother".  I honestly don't know WHICH way it's going to go but I hope it's handled well. 
- Change the locks on the bunker.  Seriously, it's their home and I don't want randoms from other countries walking in.  Get on that Sam.
- Ah Mick, you deserved better than to die at Not!Delores feet. I do like that the show's story is that even a brainwashed loyalist can be fundamentally changed by exposure to Sam & Dean.  Mick was fundamentally a decent guy. Loyal to the people who took him off the streets. He didn't turn psychopath after the Hunger Games trial and he realized that the BMoL were wrong about their code. He saw Sam and Dean dealing with complex issues, killing monsters, saving people, and NOT killing good people.  I think the rest of the BMoL have been isolated by their leadership.  This "experiment" in America is more dangerous for them than they realize.  It's our ideals that are the biggest threat.  And if Ketch is all they have? Pffft.  He'll get the epic-weapons-degrading-to-hand-to-hand big fight scene and be killed off by one of the boys.  He might take SOME hunters by surprise because they don't expect hunters to kill other hunters.  

A word on this Buckner-Lemming episode:
Well, I think Dabb controls them better than any other show runner has.  Yes, they completed the bingo card of bad writing issues.  But it wasn't a huge distraction for me.  Since, IMO the BMoL is either going to go away or be changed, I think the Hunger Games backstory should not have to be revisited beyond getting rid of it.

Edited April 7, 2017 by SueB

[Myrelle]

5 minutes ago, Boopsahoy said:

Isn't Ketch himself a hunter for all intents and purposes?

I think he is. I don't think that it's ever been stated outright that he is considered a BMoL by the others. He told Mary in this episode that he and Mick were both "survivors" when she asked if they were friends which could have meant that they both survived their stretches at that Bizarro World Hogwarts, but it could mean something else, too.

[Katy M]

2 minutes ago, SueB said:

The "kill or be killed" Hogwarts IS an unsustainable concept but other than that, I was fine with it.

I'm actually kind of wondering if all the students have to do that?  Maybe it's only the bottom two in he class every year.  Or they pick someone who seems "weak" in their eyes. That other kid did want to make a run for it.  Or they always bring in one orphan to put up agains their strongest, assuming their guy will win.  I don't know that it was ever actually stated that every kid had to kill someone to make it to the next level.  Not only unsustainable, but then Mick and that other kid should have figured it out by then.  You can't keep a secret that big in a school that I'm assuming is fairly small.

[bethy]

5 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I don't know that it was ever actually stated that every kid had to kill someone to make it to the next level.  Not only unsustainable, but then Mick and that other kid should have figured it out by then.  You can't keep a secret that big in a school that I'm assuming is fairly small.

Plus, what legacy parents would then send their children to the school knowing they might be killed to move on to the next level? It must have been some sort of test for Mick. Though I'm not sure the writers thought beyond, "Hey, let's have a kid kill another kid to make sure everyone realizes the BMoL are evil!"

[Katy M]

2 minutes ago, bethy said:

Plus, what legacy parents would then send their children to the school knowing they might be killed to move on to the next level?

I already answered that question earlier. If you don't send your kids to that school, I'm sure that you and your entire family are killed.  This doesn't seem an option loving organization.

[Aeryn13]

Dean`s part in this episode was utterly forgettable. At least Sam got the entire thing with Eileen and Mick so he didn`t literally fade from scenes.

And I fail to see how Dean was ever taken in with Ketch. Mary, who is now atrocious, obviously is, enough to boink him.

So the BMOL are a President Snow organization. Mick turned against them and got whacked. 

Could not care less about Lucifer`s spawn or Lucifer himself.  

It`s not the worst episode of the Season but in its own way, I`ve hardly seen a worse one than this.