S01.E08: Chapter Eight: The Outsiders

[ferretrick]

I'm hoping The Blossoms are Devil-Dealers and through them we get Sabrina, and possibly her Aunts. I would absolutely love the casting gods giving us Caroline Rhea and Beth Broderick.....but please no MJH.

You might be onto something. All I could think when I saw that black baby carriage was "Rosemary's Baby."

[Miss Dee]

I thought of The Cobblepotts from Batman Returns.

[Avatar19]

I'm really not a fan of how Archie's story is going.  From the pilot to now, Betty, Veronica and Jughead have all made progress in terms of the mystery and personal development.  Archie is just in the background throwing temper tantrums.  It would have been better to show Archie wrapped up in his own world focused on Valerie, football, and his dad's business, without his story crossing so much into the others.  Then it would be more jarring when he gets pulled into the murder mystery.

[loki567]

I still maintain that I don't think Cole Sprouse is a better actor than KJ Apa, Jughead is just a WAY easier acting role. If Jughead isn't earning sympathy points by being homeless and let down by a drunken father, he's solving a mystery and having shipper moments with Betty. Hardest role in any ensemble is the straight man. It especially doesn't help if you're the straight man who's kinda of a dick and has scenes in every episode arguing with someone about something. 

I just really can't see what others are seeing with the whole Bughead thing. I just don't see the chemistry between Cole Sprouse and Lili Reinhart to turn them into the Oliver/Felicity of the show. No sizzle there. 

A flaw that's definitely popping up in the series is speeding through a lot of the relationship dynamics. Archie/Val, Betty/Jughead, Kevin/Joaquin, nothing's getting time to breathe because the writers want to be on the next storyline. You can burn out fast that way.

[truthaboutluv]

8 minutes ago, loki567 said:

I still maintain that I don't think Cole Sprouse is a better actor than KJ Apa, Jughead is just a WAY easier acting role.

YMMV but I don't think the issue is about the actors' individual acting ability because I know personally, I don't exactly expect high caliber acting from CW shows. Yes, that may be dismissive but it's how I feel about most of their shows, especially those are teen-oriented. So that said, in my opinion, the issue with Archie versus Jughead right now, is the way the writers have written the characters.

It's no coincidence that there are so many memes going around mocking Archie's music stuff while comparing it to Betty's stuff with her sister, crazy parents, Jason's murder; then Veronica has the dad in prison and Jughead has homelessness, alcoholic father, etc. For most it just feels like Archie's just kind of blandly there with no real depth or interesting layers.

That said, I do think the stuff with his dad's business and him trying to help this past episode, was a good step in the right direction. I just think the biggest issue some have with Archie is that for a number of episodes it felt like the character was off in his own world and one most viewers didn't care about. 

Edited April 2, 2017 by truthaboutluv

[Avatar19]

3 minutes ago, loki567 said:

A flaw that's definitely popping up in the series is speeding through a lot of the relationship dynamics. Archie/Val, Betty/Jughead, Kevin/Joaquin, nothing's getting time to breathe because the writers want to be on the next storyline. You can burn out fast that way.

I completely agree.  Ever since the pilot burned through enough relationship drama that should have lasted a full 2 seasons, it's been running on fumes from those fires.  There's very little weight to any of the characters' relationships (romantic and platonic), which is probably how Betty/Jughead ended up with a huge following - they're the only 2 characters with actual stories, everyone else is circling the drain.

[Mabinogia]

I actually like that there is very little emphasis on relationship. We've got Archie seeing Valerie mostly in passing, Juggy and Betty are just dating really. What other relationships have their been? I don't count Grundy as a relationship. That was void of any chemistry and Archie doesn't seem at all bothered that she's gone. It was an illegal fling at best.

It feels more realistic that they would date various people rather than all having some epic true love. Don't teenagers just date anymore? Way back when I was in high school the "it couple" was a rarity. Most of us just dated different people.

As long as Juggy and Betty stay angst free I will love them. If they get all angsty and become like every other teen "it" couple on TV, I will be over them no matter how much chemistry they have or don't have.

[Chas411]

Forgot this was back. I'd missed the show. I have to admit I rolled my eyes at the pearl clutching at the thought that an abortion be suggested by whatever the dads name is. The idea that he's suddenly the big bad when it comes to the Cooper parents is a bit much considering they always seemed pretty much on the same page when it comes to crazy parenting. 

[jay741982]

1 hour ago, Chas411 said:

Forgot this was back. I'd missed the show. I have to admit I rolled my eyes at the pearl clutching at the thought that an abortion be suggested by whatever the dads name is. The idea that he's suddenly the big bad when it comes to the Cooper parents is a bit much considering they always seemed pretty much on the same page when it comes to crazy parenting. 

Yeah trust me I rolled my eyes too. Alice still locked up her oldest in a mental hospital just like Hal did 

[NorthstarATL]

Well, that was boring. And WHY was Reggie not included in the Kiddie Konstruction Krew? Opportunity missed.

[feverfew]

9 hours ago, loki567 said:

I just really can't see what others are seeing with the whole Bughead thing. I just don't see the chemistry between Cole Sprouse and Lili Reinhart to turn them into the Oliver/Felicity of the show. No sizzle there. 

A flaw that's definitely popping up in the series is speeding through a lot of the relationship dynamics. Archie/Val, Betty/Jughead, Kevin/Joaquin, nothing's getting time to breathe because the writers want to be on the next storyline. You can burn out fast that way.

 

9 hours ago, Avatar19 said:

I completely agree.  Ever since the pilot burned through enough relationship drama that should have lasted a full 2 seasons, it's been running on fumes from those fires.  There's very little weight to any of the characters' relationships (romantic and platonic), which is probably how Betty/Jughead ended up with a huge following - they're the only 2 characters with actual stories, everyone else is circling the drain.

I think unfortunately it is becoming more and more endemic to network shows: A tendency to blaze through storylines for fear of not being picked up for a second season. Couple that with throwing a lot of thing to the wall in hopes of something sticking, and this is what you get. I too would have preferred a slow-burn to what we're getting; that thing about Christmas and anticipation? That's true of shipping as well. Sizzle needs build-up.

I do think one of the reasons people have latched on to Betty/Jughead - other than what @Avatar19 said - is that Betty and Jughead so far are the only characters we've come to know (somwhat) in depth. Archie, Josie and Veronica need the same attention if we're to invest in their hopes and dreams.

As for turning into Oliver/Felicity - meh. I'd rather they turn into Joey/Pacey ;)

Edited April 3, 2017 by feverfew
One day I'll learn to spell check before posting...

[dwmckim]

16 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

I just think the biggest issue some have with Archie is that for a number of episodes it felt like the character was off in his own world and one most viewers didn't care about. 

In other words, "Aria Andrews"!  (And hey, he's even got the dating teacher points!)

[TheLastKidPicked]

7 hours ago, dwmckim said:

In other words, "Aria Andrews"!  (And hey, he's even got the dating teacher points!)

Nice one!

A friend of mine really summed it up nicely by saying,  "When we come back from commercials, I'm hoping to see a Jughead scene much more than I'm hoping for an Archie scene."  

[starri]

16 hours ago, NorthstarATL said:

And WHY was Reggie not included in the Kiddie Konstruction Krew? Opportunity missed.

The actor who plays Reggie to a part as a regular on Netflix's 13 Reasons Why.

[VCRTracking]

I never wanted to smack someone upside the head more as I did Archie when he barged into a baby shower just to yell at Jughead. He's living in your house, asshole. That shit could have waited until they were both home.

Edited April 4, 2017 by VCRTracking

[PeekaBoo]

3 hours ago, TheLastKidPicked said:

Nice one!

A friend of mine really summed it up nicely by saying,  "When we come back from commercials, I'm hoping to see a Jughead scene much more than I'm hoping for an Archie scene."  

I know!!!! And I feel that is monumentally wrong!! I mean its freaking Archie from Archie comic books!! I think its a bit strange that suddenly jughead (and betty) -have- the.most interesting  stories l... Not that theres anything wrong with it but you'd expect archie to have something more interesting to do in this whole thing... a bit of a bummer in a sense that in the end, its like, archie who?? The dude screw over his friends??

Edited April 3, 2017 by PeekaBoo
getting more inspired.

[TheLastKidPicked]

53 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

 

I never wanted to smack someone upside the head more as I did Archie when he barged into a baby shower just to yell at Jughead.

 

Jughead is the only male I know who could go to a baby shower and not feel the least bit awkward.  Of course, Archie changed that for him!

[TheLastKidPicked]

57 minutes ago, PeekaBoo said:

Not that theres anything wrong with it but you'd expect archie to have something more interesting to do in this whole thing... a bit of a bummer in a sense that in the end, its like, archie who??

And maybe that's what is dragging the character down.  He's taking on so many roles that he's almost one big stereotype and he just kind of gets lost.  Let's go down the list:

Kid who is really into music, but his parents (dad) don't support the idea?  Check.

Star of the football team?  Check

Dad wants him to follow into the family business, but kid doesn't want to?  Check

Argues with his best friend, but still wants what's best for him?  Check

I wonder if Archie's character would be more interesting if they dropped a few of those story lines so we could be more invested in the story lines remaining to him?  

[Miss Dee]

It's not a shock. Of all the people I know who read Archie comics, very few named the title character as their favourite. Jughead and Betty would have been the most popular in my generation. Archie was pretty much the coat-hanger that everything hung on: essential, but rarely preferred.

[jay741982]

On 4/2/2017 at 9:19 PM, feverfew said:

 

I think unfortunately it is becoming more and more endemic to network shows: A tendency to blaze through storylines for fear of not being picked up for a second season. Couple that with throwing a lot of thing to the wall in hopes of something sticking, and this is what you get. I too would have preferred a slow-burn to what we're getting; that thing about Christmas and anticipation? That's true of shipping as well. Sizzle needs build-up.

I do think one of the reasons people have latched on to Betty/Jughead - other than what @Avatar19 said - is that Betty and Jughead so far are the only characters we've come to know (somwhat) in depth. Archie, Josie and Veronica need the same attention if we're to invest in their hopes and dreams.

As for turning into Oliver/Felicity - meh. I'd rather they turn into Joey/Pacey ;)

Hey I'm fine with them being another Joey/Pacey 

[truthaboutluv]

I'm fine with never seeing another teen pairing compared to Joey/Pacey ever again. But then I have the unpopular opinion of hating every character on Dawson's Creek by the end, except for Jennifer.

[ThePandaEmily]

Kind of late to this party but oh well, I still have feelings about this episode. I didn't really enjoy this episode. The pacing seemed so off to me. It went from one thing to the next, day to night back to day, so quickly that I had trouble keeping up. I don't mind all these different storylines, it just feels like it's all being smooshed into one episode and burned through as quickly as possible. I had trouble keeping up. Has it always been like this? I binged episode 1-7 when the show was on hiatus so this is the first time I actually had to catch it and watch separately from the rest. 

A lot of people were comparing Archie confronting jughead about his dad to Jughead confronting Archie about Ms. Grundy, but I think those are two different situations. Don't get me wrong, Archie should NOT have barged in and basically ratted Jughead out to his friends about his father, but I can understand why he did. he was angry at Jughead. He kept a secret that he thought had endangered his dad and the company. When Jughead confronted him about Grundy, he was doing it for Archie's safety. The only person Archie was going to hurt in that situation was himself. Still, dick move Archie.

As far as Polly goes, she HAS to have a plan. I cannot fathom why she would go to the Blossoms if she didn't have ulterior motives. If she truly thought that she couldn't go home, she should've just stayed with the Lodges. Whatever her plan is, I don't think that it is too smart. I'm guessing that it has something to do with investigating Jason's murder. She should just leave the sleuthing to Bughead.

I completely and utterly ship Bughead but I kind of chuckled at the scene of them kissing in the light. It was so cliche and made me cringe on the inside. I agree with everyone else saying that they need more build-up. I didn't care in episode 6 that they didn't have any but now that they are actually boyfriend and girlfriend I'm kind of sad that we missed that whole phase of coming out of friendship into romance or whatever. 

Fred really bores me unless he is talking to Archie. Someone mentioned earlier about how the whole conversation about Archie's child building houses in the future was great character development for Archie and I have to agree. I like the father/son dynamic but I really couldn't care less about his business, however, him confronting Clifford did spark interest in me. 

I am LOVING Alice. I like the psycho mom who cares. After this episode I hope they don't completely ditch her craziness, but instead couple it with her love for her daughters. I think it makes for a really good character that isn't evil or good. Hal, however, is a mystery to me. I was getting the impression that he was actually going to be the parent that might have been good with his whole fixing cars with Betty and the way he was talking about Polly and watching her childhood videos. Who knows, maybe there is something left in there, but a family feud is no reason to set up an abortion for your daughter behind your wife's back. 

Here's hoping I enjoy the next episode a bit more.

Edited April 4, 2017 by ThePandaEmily

[feverfew]

4 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

I'm fine with never seeing another teen pairing compared to Joey/Pacey ever again. But then I have the unpopular opinion of hating every character on Dawson's Creek by the end, except for Jennifer.

Oh, true. I was using them as a shorthand, not as a direct comparison* I think I was trying to convey childhood sweethearts/that first love where everything is magic and fairy lights and coloured halos around your head, when you kiss ;)  

*We didn't have a tv till 1999 (the parental unit had this weird idea about books and the great outdoors when I was growing up. They gave up on their principles when my youngst sibling reached 11) so I haven't actually seen that much DC.

[shapeshifter]

4 hours ago, feverfew said:

. . .

*We didn't have a tv till 1999 (the parental unit had this weird idea about books and the great outdoors when I was growing up. They gave up on their principles when my youngst sibling reached 11) so I haven't actually seen that much DC.

Am I your mother?

[CabotCove]

On 4/1/2017 at 0:00 AM, talktalk said:

It simply does not make any sense! Why would Polly go live with the evil blossoms now that her own mother and sister are fully behind her? The writers are so irrational. 

$$$$$

It does matter in life, although TV/movies usually like to sell that its doesn't matter and that "its the root of all evil". 

Shit got real, she is a pregnant teen whose baby's daddy is dead. 

Quote

 

I just really can't see what others are seeing with the whole Bughead thing. I just don't see the chemistry between Cole Sprouse and Lili Reinhart to turn them into the Oliver/Felicity of the show. No sizzle there. 

Sorry, Bughead is already far better than that toxic shit.

Betty/Jughead is so far written, adult like and healthy and equal, wouldnt want it any other way. And to me they have chemistry. 

Edited April 4, 2017 by HeroLeague

[TheLastKidPicked]

21 hours ago, HeroLeague said:

Betty/Jughead is so far written, adult like and healthy and equal, wouldnt want it any other way. And to me they have chemistry. 

There is one thing very interesting about these two actors when you see them interviewed.   When Cole and Lily are asked a question, they will wait a beat before answering, each one giving the other the opportunity to speak first.  There's a few times when you see that Cole has a funny thing to add, and you can see the grin start to show up on his face, but he patiently waits for Lily to finish, and doesn't interrupt her, before he chimes in with his joke.

So it's almost like the actors have more chemistry than the characters, which is interesting.

Edited April 5, 2017 by TheLastKidPicked

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 3/31/2017 at 6:00 PM, talktalk said:

It simply does not make any sense! Why would Polly go live with the evil blossoms now that her own mother and sister are fully behind her? The writers are so irrational. 

She obviously is going to die in that eerie house. 

I am not a teen girl without (as far as we know) even a high school diploma. But one reason could be straight-up money. If Polly is embraced by the Blossoms, she and baby are set for life.

Also, I would be pretty resentful of my parents as a teen girl if a) they sent me to an asylum and b) one told me to get an abortion. In fact, I could see going over to the other side with the full knowledge that it was a Faustian bargain at best just to rattle my awful parents.

[Avatar19]

I also want to add that I want more out of Archie and Jughead's friendship.  They're supposed to have been best friends, but they don't have any great 'they're totally best friends' moments together (no one really does).  I grew up watching Scrubs and Psych, and even when the show's plot wasn't full steam ahead, just watching the characters interact was all I needed to stay invested in the show.

[Mabinogia]

I do think it was a bit of a mistake to have the show start with Archie and Juggy kind of estranged. I agree that even at their lowest point both Scrubs and Psych were still crazy enjoyable because of the inseparable bonds between JD & Turk and Shawn and Gus. And now they are adding the wistful looks for Archie as Juggy and Betty date and it doesn't look like we are going to get the great, strong male bond we, at least I, expected. Shame, too, because the two actors play well off each other and it would draw Archie more into more storylines, without going the love triangle angle. UGH

[ByTor]

On 4/2/2017 at 5:09 PM, Chas411 said:

I have to admit I rolled my eyes at the pearl clutching at the thought that an abortion be suggested by whatever the dads name is.

I thought the point of contention was that he made an appointment for her to have one without even asking her what she wanted 1st.

Edited April 24, 2017 by ByTor

[Guest]

On 3/31/2017 at 1:33 PM, TheLastKidPicked said:

He is great as Jughead, and you all are probably more in the know than I am, but did you hear why Cole wanted to play Jug instead of Archie?

Because Jughead is the narrator so he couldn't be killed off.

For some reason, that sounds exaclty the logic that Jughead would use when making decisions!

I guess he didn't see Desperate Housewives.  

On 3/31/2017 at 4:13 PM, Lady Calypso said:

Heh, Polly's baby bump kept changing sizes throughout the episode. The beginning scene had no bump at all (and no, show, having her in a loose fitting dress doesn't mean that the baby bump's just hiding), but most of the episode had them actually putting a baby bump on her.

Damnit; I've been a huge fan of Cole Sprouse since his Suite Life days. But seeing him in that white tank with his muscled arms? Whew, I am glad that I'm only a little bit younger than him.

I had a theory that Polly was faking the pregnancy, due to the phoniness of that bump. 

On 4/1/2017 at 0:18 AM, Dee said:

FP looks like a filthy chinchilla. And it's so hot.

I do think he's amazingly rodent-like but I find him skeevy rather than hot.  Maybe it's the role.  

On 4/2/2017 at 6:05 PM, NorthstarATL said:

Well, that was boring. And WHY was Reggie not included in the Kiddie Konstruction Krew? Opportunity missed.

13 Reasons Why, another dead narrator show.  

[millennium]

What a dreary, boring episode.   It seemed to take forever to reach the end.

The parents' subplots are not very interesting.  Luke Perry is an awful actor.  Blossom mother is equally bad.   I have always liked Skeet Ulrich but he's just not doing it for me here.   Jughead actor, flat.  Boring.  Annoying voice.  Now he's made Betty uninteresting too.  

[TheLastKidPicked]

On 6/2/2017 at 5:43 PM, Winston9-DT3 said:

13 Reasons Why, another dead narrator show.

HA!  Very clever.

[thuganomics85]

Dammit, Archie!  I usually take it easier on you and I understand why you were pissed at Jughead (really, dude, you could have at least sent Archie a text saying "Dad's a serpent, bro.  Let me give him a shout before you head over.  Peace!"), but you really had to barge into the middle of Polly's baby shower and confront him about that?  Dick move, Archie.  Dick move.  Thank you, Veronica, for basically booting his ass out of there.

Polly has to be playing an angle, right?  Because as twisted and messed up as Alice is, I have to think she is still not as awful as the Blossoms.  At least Alice seems to actually love her daughter in her bizarre, scary way.  Pretty sure The Blossoms would just cut the baby out and dump Polly's body, if they could.  Of course, I'm not sure why she had to pick any option and just simply stay with the Lodges, who didn't look like they were tired of her yet.

Betty doing the whole "We can't keep secrets anymore!" bit with Jughead just makes me think another secret will in fact happen, that will be even worse.  The big, dramatic kiss outside his dad's home just makes me even more suspicious that something bad is going to happen.

The baby shower at least didn't have any bloodshed, but still plenty of awesome moments like Alice and Penelope almost throwing down and Cheryl's line about her grandmother having dementia and gypsy blood (as always, Veronica's reaction to that slayed me.)

Probably the weakest episode so far, since they focused so much on the construction storyline.  I like Fred fine and despite his actions above, I do like that Archie was trying to step up and help his father (even if it included causing bar fights.  Idiot), but this whole plot lacks interest compared to everything else going on.  Even the twist of it being Veronica's dad/Heromine's husband behind it all, is underwhelming.

On the other hand, I really want to know what FP is up to.  He is suddenly way more competent and lucid now.